Double Date with Brandi & Catherine Carlile!
March 10, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we are continuing our conversation with six time Grammy award winning singer, songwriter, performer, producer, number one New York Times bestselling author and activist, and our dear, dear friend, Brandi Carlile. But today we are having a double date. We are joined by of course, my beloved wife, Abby Wambach, and we welcome Brandi’s wife, Catherine Carlile. Catherine, one of our favorite people, has devoted her life to the intersection of music and activism with over 20 years of experience.
Glennon Doyle:
Since 2012, she has served as the executive director of the Looking Out Foundation, which has raised over $3 million for a variety of grassroots causes. She has also served as creative director for Phantom 309 Productions. And you’ll very quickly find out she has an amazing voice. She’s also an incredible writer. Catherine and Brandi now live outside of Seattle, Washington with their two daughters, Evangeline and Elijah. Let’s jump in.
Brandi Carlile:
Her secret is that she did voiceovers before she moved to [inaudible 00:01:22] secret job.
Abby Wambach:
That’s my secret dream job.
Brandi Carlile:
She has the best voice.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. We’re going to start because I want to talk about that.
Catherine Carlile:
No, no, no, let’s not.
Brandi Carlile:
No, really?
Catherine Carlile:
I mean, no-
Brandi Carlile:
No, I mean we can I guess.[Crosstalk 00:01:30].
Catherine Carlile:
… I mean, we cannot talk about that [crosstalk 00:01:31], don’t talk about my perfect voice.
Glennon Doyle:
Are we recording? Okay. All right. So you’ve just joined already our double date. This is We Can Do Hard Things double date episode with Catherine and Brandi. And you’ve interrupted us in the middle, but that’s okay. You don’t need to apologize.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Just to give the 411, we just had lunch. And so we are technically now in the after food portion of this double date.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It’s the after party. And we were just learning that Catherine used to do voiceovers. This doesn’t surprise me at all. Tell me more.
Brandi Carlile:
Shall I or do you want to tell them?
Glennon Doyle:
No. Tell the person who does the voiceovers we want to talk.
Catherine Carlile:
I worked at a studio as a studio manager and they would do voiceover stuff in the studio.
Brandi Carlile:
Listen to that voice.
Catherine Carlile:
Stop.
Abby Wambach:
It’s perfect.
Catherine Carlile:
And then one day, one of the vocal coaches doing this voiceover work said, “You should do it.” And I said, sure. And I had a couple of lessons and did them out of my cupboard under the stairs.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. If anyone’s listening right now that is in charge of voiceovers, you just need to hire Catherine. I can listen to her all day. Actually, that is a line in The Rock. Is that what it’s called?
Brandi Carlile:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so good. What is that line about when Catherine goes for a walk and you’re so codependent that you can’t handle her being gone for longer than 10.
Brandi Carlile:
My garden and you out on your walk is all the distance this poor girl can take without listening to you talk. I mean, listen to her.
Glennon Doyle:
I know.
Catherine Carlile:
She’s only human. [crosstalk 00:03:08]
Glennon Doyle:
I get it. How did you guys meet and who asked out who first?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, who saw who first? I love this. This is so exciting.
Catherine Carlile:
Well, I knew what Brandi looked like before she met me because obviously, she’s Brandi.
Brandi Carlile:
And I did not know what Catherine looked like. And this is actually very funny because I was involved in a campaign in the States called The Fight The Fear campaign. We were teaching women self defense in response to a really violent crime that happened in Seattle. And Catherine had been reading about it all the way over in the UK. And she got in touch with my manager and asked if her and Paul McCartney, who she was working for at the time organizing his charity stuff, could donate anything to the cause to help us raise funds.
Brandi Carlile:
And my manager connected me with her because she ran a and I had just started one. And so I was being mentored by this person for quite a while, actually. A little over a year. And I know some things about her. I knew she had a girlfriend. I knew she liked the Indigo Girls. And I knew she worked for Paul McCartney and I thought she was Paul’s age.
Abby Wambach:
Going back to the voice.
Brandi Carlile:
So the whole time, I thought I was talking to somebody pretty close to 70. The whole time.
Glennon Doyle:
So when did you discover that she is in fact not?
Brandi Carlile:
When I saw her.
Glennon Doyle:
And how did you see her?
Brandi Carlile:
About two years later.
Catherine Carlile:
In New York.
Brandi Carlile:
… she came to a show in New York city. She’d come to New York to work at the Paul McCartney’s office in New York City and came out to a show. And I remember the tour manager being like, “Hey, the charity lady is going to be at the show.”
Catherine Carlile:
Charity lady.
Brandi Carlile:
And I was like, I want to go to the gay bars with all lesbians and my friend is in New York city. What the hell?
Catherine Carlile:
I’m a charity lady.
Brandi Carlile:
I got to see the charity lady?
Catherine Carlile:
Wow.
Brandi Carlile:
And I got back to the dressing room and there was Catherine in her 28 year old glory. We were both 20. I just couldn’t believe my eyes. The shock of what I thought Catherine would look like to what she did look like was just really disarming.
Glennon Doyle:
Did you love her right away?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. What was the first thing you said to her?
Brandi Carlile:
I think I said, I thought you were 70.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah, you did say something like that. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Smooth.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Brandi Carlile:
Good opening. And she was there with her girlfriend.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah. So it definitely wasn’t love at first sight because we weren’t in that head space.
Brandi Carlile:
No. And Kim was back at home in Napa Valley and her and her girlfriend were going to go to Memphis. They want to see the place that rock and roll was started.
Catherine Carlile:
Yes.
Brandi Carlile:
And I was like, don’t come to Memphis, come to my house. And so they did. And we became fast friends. We played guitar all night. We cooked steaks and I did love her right away. I absolutely thought she was just the funnest person. But it was a really platonic at first, for another year.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
For one whole year?
Brandi Carlile:
Yeah.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And then who made the first non platonic move?
Catherine Carlile:
Well, Brandi-
Brandi Carlile:
I say her. She says me. We don’t agree.
Catherine Carlile:
… no, you winked at me.
Abby Wambach:
Come one, a wink?
Catherine Carlile:
You gave me a really big cocky wink.
Abby Wambach:
Whoa.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Can you describe the what-
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah, we were at a blackjack table.
Brandi Carlile:
I’m a cliche.
Catherine Carlile:
It’s a long story. And she had her leg copped up on the chair. She looked at me and gave me the most confident wink I’ve ever received. And it made me feel really nervous. And I thought, what am I supposed to do about that? She probably winks at all the girls.
Glennon Doyle:
You were sweating.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah. It made me sweat a little bit. And I would say that was the boldest move that either of us took.
Brandi Carlile:
That was the first time that we were like, maybe we… There was no tension. There wasn’t any of that long drawn out lesbian friendship tension thing.
Catherine Carlile:
It was playful.
Brandi Carlile:
It was just like, that was the moment I was like, God, she is so gorgeous and really fun. And my brother was there with me and people in my family. And it was just like, there was just something about it. She just belonged there. And I was like, I’m just going to give her a wink.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t know whether to be impressed or disgusted.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m impressed.
Abby Wambach:
Let’s see that.
Glennon Doyle:
No, I’m impressed.
Catherine Carlile:
It was impressive.
Abby Wambach:
Because a wink. It feels like so-
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so confident.
Catherine Carlile:
Very confident.
Abby Wambach:
And wild.
Catherine Carlile:
Very confident.
Glennon Doyle:
[crosstalk 00:07:34].Brandi Carlile:
And it was just like, I might want more than this. Just one of those.
Glennon Doyle:
It was an open for business wink. I’m open for business.
Catherine Carlile:
It was a sign. It was a lesbian sign.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. See I’m new here. So I didn’t know that was one of our signs.
Catherine Carlile:
I was relatively new too so yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Brandi Carlile:
We have a handshake. I’ll show you later.
Glennon Doyle:
We have a what?
Brandi Carlile:
We have a handshake it to you.
Glennon Doyle:
Come on. You’re finally going to show me.
Brandi Carlile:
But then we didn’t see each other again, we went our separate ways, but when we saw each other again, it was like, I saw her and she saw me. And as soon as we locked eyes, I remember she was standing in the front of a tour bus. I was standing in the back of a tour bus and I was like, that’s it I’m done, nothing else.
Abby Wambach:
And during those three months, were you guys in connection, contact communication?
Brandi Carlile:
Really casually.
Catherine Carlile:
Very casual, yeah.
Brandi Carlile:
Catherine had sent me some music. She’d been making some music in her band and I had sent her a bit of music and there was nothing, no hidden agendas in it. We just, I think we really knew instinctively. And actually we never really talked about this to keep enough distance between the two of us.
Catherine Carlile:
Well, there was a lot of distance because-
Brandi Carlile:
To where, when we did come together.
Catherine Carlile:
… I lived in London too.
Brandi Carlile:
Yeah.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. You knew that something… We had that. We were like, we know this is going to be an almost holy thing. And so we-
Catherine Carlile:
But not yet.
Glennon Doyle:
… need some time to get our shit together so that when we get together, neither of us hurts each other kind of thing.
Brandi Carlile:
Yes, we did that.
Abby Wambach:
Or compromises our own integrity.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
That was a really, we wanted to separate from our former lives well, so that we could step into our future.
Brandi Carlile:
Yeah, because we want to enjoy telling this story, right?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Exactly.
Brandi Carlile:
Yeah, And I do.
Catherine Carlile:
Did you both have that full sight?
Glennon Doyle:
What would you say?
Abby Wambach:
She was more mature about it than me. I was like, what the fuck, I just want to see you right now.
Glennon Doyle:
I made and held the line.
Abby Wambach:
Yes. That’s right.
Catherine Carlile:
Wow. That’s interesting.
Abby Wambach:
And I’m really grateful because it is a story I love to be able to tell and I feel really good about telling it now, in hindsight.
Glennon Doyle:
It was too important. And I remember thinking you were too important. This is not something to mess with.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, that.
Catherine Carlile:
And you met on a book tour, right?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It was super sexy. A librarians convention.
Brandi Carlile:
Whoa.
Glennon Doyle:
Smolder.
Abby Wambach:
2000 librarians.
Glennon Doyle:
I was just thinking about that moment. So there were seven writers lined up on this dais and then there was maybe 2000 librarians, that’s just the hugest ballroom ever. And Abby, okay, so it was seven writers and Abby, and this was at the height, she was just retiring. And so then they said, okay, you can all come up to get your book signed. So then all the seven of us writers sat there and there was one line up for Abby, I feel so awkward.
Brandi Carlile:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
Because I was trying, I wanted her to think I was cool. And there was no one in my line, so I just had to be like, I’m just not doing signatures right now and walk over.
Abby Wambach:
It wasn’t quite like that.
Glennon Doyle:
It was like that.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, listen, I’m not a writer by trade, but here I was trying to sell my book to the little librarians of the world. I hadn’t even finished my book. So they all had their books.
Catherine Carlile:
Wow.
Abby Wambach:
And I just had a cover sheet.
Glennon Doyle:
She was deciding whether to actually tell the truth in her book, whether to talk about addiction. And she came up to me in the hallway. We were walking, we had never spoken before we had, I was already in love with her but-
Catherine Carlile:
Because you, it was love at first sight.
Glennon Doyle:
… there was, well now I see it as desire at first sight, I thought it was love like magical, mystical, Disney love.
Abby Wambach:
It was.
Glennon Doyle:
It was. But I think-
Abby Wambach:
But now that the drugs have worn off in her brain, not the drugs, but the science, the chemistry in her brain.
Glennon Doyle:
… we’ll talk about that. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It was love at first sight.
Glennon Doyle:
But we were walking through the hallway and she stopped me and she knew that I had an addiction background because she read all the little blurbs about the people who were going to be there. And she was like, I’m really, I don’t know if you’ve heard what happened to me? I’m like, where would I have heard? What are you?
Abby Wambach:
I don’t do sports. I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Glennon Doyle:
When? What? And she was like on ESPN. And I was like, no, no, I haven’t watched ESPN. She had just gotten a DUI and it was a really hard time for her. But she was so terrified to talk about addiction. She was thinking about putting it in the book because for somebody who’s a shiny captain America type sports type, they have to be perfect. It was so weird for me to hear because as people in music or a writer, I’m like, so what?
Abby Wambach:
It was the first-
Glennon Doyle:
Everybody has addiction issues.
Catherine Carlile:
… what is there even to write about it?
Glennon Doyle:
What else would you write about?
Abby Wambach:
It was the first time anybody in my life had ever given me advice that didn’t require me to be perfect in order to stay where I was. And I just remember, she touched my arm, electric. And I was like, what the fuck. And then she goes, I have a rap sheet as long as your arm, in the real world, we like real people. And I was like oh. So that’s what I can do.
Glennon Doyle:
That was my wink.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah. It was.
Glennon Doyle:
That was pretty good, right?
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah, it was.
Brandi Carlile:
Yeah.
Catherine Carlile:
For sure, good.
Brandi Carlile:
Pretty good.
Catherine Carlile:
Good advice too.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. So the tour bus.
Brandi Carlile:
The wink of the smart person.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
The wink of words.
Catherine Carlile:
The smart person of Brandi.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I didn’t have a black Jack table and my leg on it. It’s pretty cool. That’s not really my jam.
Brandi Carlile:
[Crosstalk 00:12:58 ] I don’t know why.Glennon Doyle:
So when you saw Catherine, when you saw Brandi on the tour bus with you, did you also feel like, shit, something is happening.
Catherine Carlile:
I mean, not in that moment, but I felt it actually prior. I remember I was on this Greyhound in bus traveling to see her and-
Abby Wambach:
Dedication.
Catherine Carlile:
… I know.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Catherine Carlile:
I know I got on a fucking, excuse me, I got in a Greyhound bus. So that was love obviously.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Catherine Carlile:
But I remember feeling really nervous, really nervous. And I didn’t have an appetite and that’s when I know there’s something wrong with me. And yes-
Brandi Carlile:
You love food.
Catherine Carlile:
… yeah. I love food. Yeah. But no, I do remember the bus and I do remember it becoming obvious that it was a mutual attraction and that maybe there was hope for us.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Catherine Carlile:
But it all felt a bit hopeless at the time.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
You do have a lovely voice.
Catherine Carlile:
Tell me [crosstalk 00:14:07].
Glennon Doyle:
I forget we’re in a podcast, I’m like, ask more her questions.
Catherine Carlile:
[crosstalk 00:14:10] talking.Glennon Doyle:
Ask Catherine more questions.
Abby Wambach:
I know.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So hopeless at the time, because you were in different places.
Catherine Carlile:
Different countries. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
When did you decide, okay, I’m going to freaking move to America and live in a commune in the woods with no heat.
Brandi Carlile:
I make heat happen and the fire gets made every day.
Glennon Doyle:
Which is so awesome.
Brandi Carlile:
Again, something I do happily.
Glennon Doyle:
Can you tell us about your house?
Catherine Carlile:
It’s so…
Glennon Doyle:
Tell us about your house.
Catherine Carlile:
Well, it’s a log cabin.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a log cabin.
Catherine Carlile:
At the foothills of the cascade mountains. I get that right?
Brandi Carlile:
Yeah.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah. And it’s a really beautiful place. It’s really humble. And there’s a wood stove and you feel like you’re going a bit back in time.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Catherine Carlile:
And it’s just really cozy and it’s beautiful all year round. It’s just-
Abby Wambach:
So you split your own wood and you create your own heat.
Brandi Carlile:
Yeah. Every single day.
Catherine Carlile:
… there’s no heat like it.
Brandi Carlile:
And there’s no heat like it. It’s like forced air, just blows stuff around. It just feels, I don’t like the way it feels. I like radiant heat. And she does too. Because that’s all the cobbley streets in the-
Catherine Carlile:
England.
Brandi Carlile:
… and the [crosstalk 00:15:17] houses.
Catherine Carlile:
There’s the conditioning of heat coming out vents.
Brandi Carlile:
We don’t have dryers.
Catherine Carlile:
We have radiators.
Brandi Carlile:
Or warm water.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so interesting.
Catherine Carlile:
We have warm water.
Brandi Carlile:
I’m just-
Glennon Doyle:
Warm water. I don’t know, I’d believe you if you tell me that right now.
Brandi Carlile:
… so there’s this wood stove, I’ve lived in this house for 21 years. There’s a wood stove right in the middle of the room. And the room is everything’s in one room. There’s a little loft with a couple of bedrooms the kids are in and everything. But for the most part, this is just big wood stove in the middle of the house. And we just make a fire and keep it going. I mean, I keep a fire going for three weeks.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God.
Brandi Carlile:
And then just let it go out to clean the wood stove.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Abby Wambach:
So when it’s really cold, what happens in the middle of the night?
Brandi Carlile:
Well, you pack a wood stove, especially when you get really, really used to for all these years in such a way. And you close down the Damper in it to where it starves the fire of oxygen, just enough to keep it warm. But there’s that flame and blazing and everything. So when you wake up in the morning, you just introduce the air and it goes, lights itself back up.
Glennon Doyle:
This is a metaphor.
Abby Wambach:
[crosstalk 00:16:22] out of here.Glennon Doyle:
This is a really good metaphor.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
What do you guys fight about the most in the log cabin?
Catherine Carlile:
Of well-
Abby Wambach:
It’s the splitting of all the wood, of course.
Catherine Carlile:
… we have pockets of dysfunction and they compliment each other actually. I have an issue about-
Brandi Carlile:
Good fighters. We fight all the time.
Catherine Carlile:
… dishes.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you? Because I’ve never seen you fight.
Brandi Carlile:
Well a little bit.
Catherine Carlile:
We bicker.
Brandi Carlile:
The cute bicker things like dishes are wonderful. But no, we don’t want for anybody to think that there’s anything unnatural about having a good rail.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Brandi Carlile:
So we [crosstalk 00:16:55].
Glennon Doyle:
What would it be about? What was your last actual, we are having a conflict. We are going to have to work through. Not just a housekeeping one, but a real one.
Catherine Carlile:
We normally, Christmas is an interesting time. We typically fight around that stuff.
Brandi Carlile:
We fight about alone time. She needs it, I don’t. And she doesn’t need it from me, which is weird. If I’m there, she still feels alone. But like-
Glennon Doyle:
Do you learn about that?
Brandi Carlile:
That’s a whole thing. It’s very [crosstalk 00:17:29] attention to myself. But I want company. I remember being a kid, my favorite sound was gravel under car wheels. Because it was like, who’s here.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Brandi Carlile:
If you came surprise me today. And I’ll change everything. If you come for dinner, I might not want you to leave for three days. And Catherine’s just like, what the hell is wrong with you?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Catherine, that’s my favorite sound too. But it’s because people are leaving.
Abby Wambach:
Because people are leaving.
Catherine Carlile:
I like company. I just, I like to know when people are showing up and when they’re going to leave as well, that’s important information. But yeah, we’ve learned to live with each other around that kind of thing.
Brandi Carlile:
But big fights have come of that. I want family to come and stay and she thinks that we need some family time away from other family or whatever. So we’ve had big fights about that. We’ve fought about COVID.
Catherine Carlile:
Oh God.
Brandi Carlile:
Neither one of us hates to not be in control of a situation or not know what’s going to happen. I don’t know, we’re just, we’re together all the time.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
We get that.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah. You two must be.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Brandi Carlile:
What about you guys? What’s your most constant fight?
Glennon Doyle:
We fight about control. I tend to be a very controlling person. And so Abby is uncontrollable and that is which bends first, the impenetrable force or the… It’s that I think has been interesting. But I think we fight mostly about how we fight.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
So it doesn’t matter-
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
… the fight. It doesn’t matter what the problem is. It’s that after the problem, we go into this pattern where I’m trying to be right. I don’t know, what are you doing? You often go to shame. So if something happens, Abby drops something and we’re fighting about dropping, she’ll be like, “I’m the worst person in the world. I can’t believe I did that.” And so then I have to be like, “No, you’re such a good person.” And then I’m pissed because I’m like, wait, how did we end up here where I’m talking about good person are you, you dropped the fucking thing?
Catherine Carlile:
That’s Clever. That’s a good tactic.
Brandi Carlile:
That’s a whole thing.
Glennon Doyle:
And then we feel like we have these bulletproof jackets. I feel like when get hurt, hurt is like, what do you do with hurt? So then you put something on, Chase, he always put on humor, he’d just start laughing about everything nervously. And then, or one of our kids would go to apathy. I don’t care, whatever. So what would you think your bulletproof vest is that covers hurt in a fight?
Abby Wambach:
Well, I think you hit on the head with the shame bit. I put a shame jacket on, but at the end of it, what does that all mean? I think it’s a power play. It’s how do I get out of this to win. Same with you, control is a power thing. And Glennon, if we were to get into a real argument, will 100% of the time win. Because she is very smart and very good with words. And we’ll come up with 72 different cases in which this just happened. The point was proven and that’s where we start from.
Glennon Doyle:
This happened yesterday. We were walking and we got in an argument and it was that, it was like, she said, okay, if you want to be right.
Catherine Carlile:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
Go ahead and be right.
Abby Wambach:
It’s just like, I’m not in this.
Brandi Carlile:
That’s torture.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I’m not in this to be right here.
Brandi Carlile:
It’s awful.
Abby Wambach:
I’m I’m telling you right now, whether it’s right or wrong, what you just said hurt me.
Glennon Doyle:
And she’s like, can you understand that my feelings are hurt?
Abby Wambach:
That’s what actually with the thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Can you just stop and understand that my feelings are hurt.
Brandi Carlile:
That’s brilliant. That’s really good communication.
Catherine Carlile:
I wish I could say when my feelings are hurt.
Brandi Carlile:
Amazing. Wow.
Catherine Carlile:
That’s really bold.
Brandi Carlile:
I think the result that would get from me would be excellent. That’s-
Glennon Doyle:
My result wasn’t that good.
Abby Wambach:
Well, you’re often still stuck in it.
Glennon Doyle:
I was like real quick, one more time. I want you to listen to me explain why, what I did was right. So what do you say when your feelings are hurt? How do you express yourself or not express yourself?
Catherine Carlile:
I have arrested development emotionally. I can only express one emotion, which is typically anger, so I won’t feel sadness. It’s just an extension of that, of sadness anyway, anger. But that’s how I would display my emotion. And I actually don’t know at the time that I’m sad at all. I just feel angry.
Brandi Carlile:
I make sure and tell her.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s important.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Brandi Carlile:
I make sure and tell her exactly how she’s feeling all the time.
Glennon Doyle:
Great. That’s good. That’s a good strategy.
Abby Wambach:
That’s super helpful.
Brandi Carlile:
And if it’s not worthy of her, she’s being disproportionate. I say things like get ahold of yourself.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s [crosstalk 00:22:08], you tell her to calm down.
Brandi Carlile:
Or have read a newspaper lately?
Catherine Carlile:
Pull yourself together. Pull yourself together id really great there.
Brandi Carlile:
These are all effective.
Catherine Carlile:
My favorite one.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
So you say pull yourself together.
Brandi Carlile:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
And then what do you say after that?
Brandi Carlile:
Calm down, is always my favorite ones.
Catherine Carlile:
Well, I typically, so you go to shame, that’s your armor. I actually fall asleep.
Brandi Carlile:
She swears to God. This hair comes down, it’s like.
Catherine Carlile:
I fall asleep because she’s so brilliant and intellectual and measured and articulate and seems to have all the answers all the time and seems to have control of herself. So I get so exhausted by it. Not being able to articulate myself because I’m feeling all the things. Because I’m all about nerves and feelings and she’s like up here. So I have to fall asleep. It’s just so physically exhausting.
Glennon Doyle:
And mentally draining.
Brandi Carlile:
And it always happens in the car, which has made me think she can can’t drive. So I never let her drive because I’m afraid she’ll fall asleep. And I’m like, it’s because we always fight in the car and you fall asleep. And then you wake up and you’re like, “Well, what should we have for dinner?” And everything. It’s like-
Catherine Carlile:
Everything’s great when I wake up.
Brandi Carlile:
She’ll sleep, that’s her palate cleanser. It’s just a 10 minute nap or whatever. I love the way that she processes feelings and I don’t think she has arrested development at all. I think she’s going to live to be 110 years old because of the way that she walks through the world.
Abby Wambach:
That’s amazing.
Brandi Carlile:
And it’s like, I mean, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Catherine at all. Except for all the things she thinks are wrong with me.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s a good one.
Abby Wambach:
Well, one of the things that I struggle with Glennon because-
Glennon Doyle:
Abby wants to get back to that real quick.
Abby Wambach:
No, I think that this is important because the feelings bit. Glennon feels the world’s pain a lot. But she struggles her own personal life to actually be able to access those emotions. So sometimes I’m hurt. I’m literally crying. I’m upset, I’m crying and something shuts off or shuts down inside of her where she just goes completely cold.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so terrible.
Abby Wambach:
Gone.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you know what I think it is?
Catherine Carlile:
What is that?
Glennon Doyle:
Arrested development, but also.
Catherine Carlile:
You’re perfect, it’s not arrested.
Glennon Doyle:
But I think I’ve never said this out loud before, but I think that I was raised as a girl, a very girly girl, okay. So I was raised to be in a heteronormative relationship. And I was raised with toxic femininity, which expects toxic masculinity and in a marriage, that means I am vulnerable and you are not. And if you start to get vulnerable, I’m scared as shit because wait a minute-
Abby Wambach:
Who’s going to protect us.
Glennon Doyle:
… no. You can’t do that. What’s happening there.
Brandi Carlile:
Who’s going to protect us. Whoa.
Glennon Doyle:
I think it’s a deep… It’s that thing where women want their male partners be vulnerable because that’s like the buzzword right now.
Abby Wambach:
But don’t.
Glennon Doyle:
But actually when you see it, the most feminist women inside are like, be a fucking man. It’s this weird thing when you’re taught that you have to be passive. You need a dominant person.
Abby Wambach:
It allows you to be passive because you know that there is a dominance, but I have both. I’m dual. And so when I go, dare I say soft, or when I actually have real emotions, Glennon’s she’ll… I can see it on her face.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a hardening like bye-bye, out of here.
Abby Wambach:
I can feel it, but I know that’s her. I know better than that. So I have to explain my real true depth of sadness.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m sorry I’m working on it.
Abby Wambach:
I know. And you’re doing a good job.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you.
Catherine Carlile:
Did you have overly emotional… Did you have to comfort an overly emotional parent or anything like that?
Glennon Doyle:
No, but I think I was raised in a loving but very volatile household. And so when someone else that I love, it happens with my sister too, by the way, when someone starts expressing very strong emotions, whether it’s yelling or cry, it makes me freeze up.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And I believe my whole thing is it all. Then when someone close to me does it, I’m completely stunned.
Abby Wambach:
But not with the kids.
Glennon Doyle:
Except with the kids, yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It’s a protection. It’s a safety thing.
Glennon Doyle:
And this is out of control is how it feels. I want to talk, you told us about your house. The other special thing is that you live with, you really do have a family situation that it’s not just your little family. Tell us about that.
Brandi Carlile:
Well, it’s cool. It’s like my band that I’ve been in for over 20 years, they’re twin brothers, Tim and Phil. And one of them married my little sister.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Brandi Carlile:
And so 21 years ago, I bought this five acre property with the log cabin on it that I still live in now. But there’s all this property around it. Because it’s out in the middle of nowhere. And as our family has grown, people have started to buy property around it in the band. And it grew to 95 acres. So Tim and Phil moved on with my sister and then Tim’s wife and they had kids and now the kids are growing up together. And then because bands can be so insular if they choose to be, Catherine has two sisters that lived in Boston, on the east coast. And when they graduated high school, they would come out on the road and hang out with the band or sell merch or whatever. And then our band’s cellist, married Catherine’s sister. And then the engineer married her other sister and they all moved to the compound too.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Wait, I did not know that part.
Brandi Carlile:
And then each had one child. So we live with Catherine’s sisters, my twin brothers, my sister. And so in all, it’s eight kids now on 95 acres where we just walk to each other’s houses or take four wheelers or whatever. And lately we’ve actually been thinking about how we can continue to get together because we’ve gotten, it’s actually getting so overwhelming for my house, which is now the smallest house, because nothing’s changed since all those years ago to get… But I’m like I’m destined to be the young matriarch. So I wind up cooking everything and we wind up in my house and it’s like, it’s too many people now.
Abby Wambach:
Well, can’t you just build right next to it?
Brandi Carlile:
We’re talking about it, a big barn or something.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. A big barn yeah. [crosstalk 00:29:03].
Brandi Carlile:
A pull down dish washer like they have at the elementary school.
Abby Wambach:
No, it’s so good.
Catherine Carlile:
The holidays are hilarious. We have to stage all of the cooking where if I do a roast dinner it’s oh my goodness. It’s like, I have to do three trays of roast potatoes. And then I have to cook like three different turkeys and three different ovens and so then it’s complete.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Brandi Carlile:
And there’s not enough chairs. We have to go get the drum throne and the piano bench and all these different things and the kids’ chairs and everything. It’s like-
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so cool.
Catherine Carlile:
And we have to feed Kim too.
Brandi Carlile:
You know.
Catherine Carlile:
You know.
Brandi Carlile:
We have to feed Kim every anyway.
Catherine Carlile:
Kim is next door.
Glennon Doyle:
Kim. Explain Kim.
Catherine Carlile:
Kim, Brandi’s ex.
Glennon Doyle:
Brandi’s ex.
Catherine Carlile:
Kim. She lives next door.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So Kim. Because that’s normal.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah. That’s really normal.
Glennon Doyle:
I want to talk about that.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Brandi Carlile:
I left that one out.
Glennon Doyle:
I want to know with you too. So do you not deal with jealousy in your marriage?
Catherine Carlile:
I love this question.
Glennon Doyle:
Your ex lives in a house next door to you. I just, you guys are very evolved about this for real, but how do you not… Are you neither of you jealous people?
Brandi Carlile:
We are about each other. If I thought that someone had a crush on Catherine or that she had a crush on somebody that was actually meaningful, I would lose my mind.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Brandi Carlile:
I would become a danger to that person.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. That makes me feel better. Thank you. We are that way. So I just wanted-
Catherine Carlile:
I believe well, you’re both that way.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. We both are. I mean, Abby always says she’s not jealous, but what do you think? I’ll let you speak for yourself. You are.
Abby Wambach:
Well, you just got to this gay world. And so-
Glennon Doyle:
Here we go.
Abby Wambach:
… there’s a part of me that you’re naivete-
Glennon Doyle:
Naivete.
Abby Wambach:
… when it relates to other women that come into your life. I’m always just like, because I have not only gayder, but I can sense energy really well. And I’m like be careful there. And also I have to admit that I have a lot of PTSD in getting cheated on a lot. So it was just the nature of never being home. That’s so weird. Why would I think that I could be in a relationship that I never was home for ever.
Brandi Carlile:
Same.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. It’s like, it surprises me now that I could think that would work. But anyways, yes, I do get jealous, but mostly because, and I don’t mean this in an offensive way, because I don’t think that you’re paying attention to some of that.
Glennon Doyle:
To vibes.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I don’t even know if you know what to look for in that.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I didn’t know about the wink until today.
Abby Wambach:
You do with men. No you do-
Brandi Carlile:
Interesting,
Abby Wambach:
… here’s the thing, you do with men.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I that’s because I… Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It’s just like, oh no. Oh gosh, because it’s repellent.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, and then coming from the other side, when we were talking in the last episode about being newer, the hard things about coming out later and coming out earlier, I don’t know what the boundaries are. I had friends. I had friends that were women and we didn’t have boundary. I mean, we didn’t make out, but we were very close and now suddenly I’m supposed to read things in a different way than I ever had before with women. So I can see your point, I guess what I’m saying.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Brandi Carlile:
But I think you’d know.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I think I would know too.
Abby Wambach:
I’ll know first.
Catherine Carlile:
You’ll know first.
Brandi Carlile:
So to answer the question, yes, Abby is jealous.
Abby Wambach:
I’ll know first. I’ve already warned her about it. We’ll have already had a conversation. It’s all good.
Glennon Doyle:
But you are, and are you jealous?
Abby Wambach:
I mean, every lesbian in the whole wide world wants Brandi.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah. So it was very hard for me. I think I’d have a real problem if I really-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s true.
Catherine Carlile:
… Brandi. I think I’d have a problem if I was innately, I don’t think I’m an innately jealous person and I do have to accept that there’s a lot of women fawning over Brandi and I just see that as a compliment, but no, if there was ever anything meaningful I would be very similar to Abby because I think Brandi may not see things straight away just because of how intoxicating and how magnetic she is and how her profession, people romanticize singers and artists. And they read too much into the lyrics and there’s infatuations happen very quickly.
Glennon Doyle:
Interesting.
Catherine Carlile:
I would go, I mean, I’ve probably said to you a few times, probably just pay attention to that person.
Brandi Carlile:
Yeah. And you’re always right.
Glennon Doyle:
Really?
Brandi Carlile:
Yeah. She’s always right.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. That’s good for me to know.
Brandi Carlile:
That’s good. I mean the very first person I told that I was going to ask Catherine to marry me was Kim and she was so excited. And she’s the one that told me to go and make something more of what she could see that Catherine was to me.
Catherine Carlile:
She did.
Brandi Carlile:
She’s probably-
Catherine Carlile:
She was the biggest supporter of our relationship.
Brandi Carlile:
Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t say that Kim’s like the most evolved person in the world or anything, but she is special to me and she loved me, has loved me most of my life now, or a big part of my life. And so she just saw, she’s like yeah, that Catherine thing, this is it. This is when you go.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow. That’s really special and cool.
Catherine Carlile:
It is. It is cool.
Brandi Carlile:
It was. And yeah, now she lives next door and-
Catherine Carlile:
That’s why it’s not awkward.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Brandi Carlile:
… and sometimes it is, she has a little compulsions.
Catherine Carlile:
What do you mean? Walking into our bedroom every morning caffeinated and telling us how to load our dish washer?
Glennon Doyle:
Are you serious?
Brandi Carlile:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Brandi Carlile:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
She walks into your bedroom every morning?
Brandi Carlile:
Well, yeah.
Catherine Carlile:
She won’t mind. She’ll think this is funny. No.
Glennon Doyle:
This is amazing.
Catherine Carlile:
No, it’s very funny.
Brandi Carlile:
Or if we go somewhere it’s like I drive because I have to drive everything, because no one can drive me. And Kim has all these little caveats built in, she says, she’s got sleep apnea, which I don’t think she does. And she says that she-
Glennon Doyle:
Do you think it’s weird that Kim and Catherine both fall asleep when you talk or do you… Because that’s a coincidence. I’m just seeing a pattern.
Brandi Carlile:
… no, but I’ll give that some thought. One thing I do know is that she gets in the front seat next to me and then we fight the whole drive and Catherine sits in the back seat and laughs.
Catherine Carlile:
Kim gets car sick-
Brandi Carlile:
Everywhere we go. It’s me and Kim and the front seat.
Catherine Carlile:
… and I’m not allowed to drive apparently.
Brandi Carlile:
Like parents.
Catherine Carlile:
There’s Brandi white knuckling it with Kim. And then I’m like the kid in the back and I’m watching my parents argue. It’s like so fucked up.
Abby Wambach:
This is your time alone.
Catherine Carlile:
But very entertaining.
Abby Wambach:
This is your time that you go to yourself.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah. That’s when I also fall asleep. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
You’re watching then you’re like…
Glennon Doyle:
So you don’t, Abby and I have now have finally decided after five years of trying to make it work that I just actually… I will never drive when Abby’s in the car.
Abby Wambach:
Thank God.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s done. It’s over.
Brandi Carlile:
Speak up. It’s okay.
Catherine Carlile:
I made that decision that month ago too.
Glennon Doyle:
A month ago, me too.
Catherine Carlile:
I’m just not doing it. It’s not worth it.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s not worth it. Someone’s going to die.
Brandi Carlile:
I told you I was sorry about that. I told you I was sorry, immediately.
Glennon Doyle:
Are you a driver. Are you what is it called a backseat driver.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah, backseat driver.
Glennon Doyle:
Is that what you do? Do you scare her like Abby scares me? Do you [inaudible 00:35:49]?
Catherine Carlile:
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Brandi Carlile:
I mean, to be fair, I’m genuinely terrified.
Abby Wambach:
Same. And to be fair, how many cars have you hit in the last seven months?
Glennon Doyle:
I mean-
Abby Wambach:
How many?
Glennon Doyle:
… this is a hard question.
Abby Wambach:
How many times? How many times have you hit-
Glennon Doyle:
This is hard.
Abby Wambach:
… our car on things.
Brandi Carlile:
I don’t know. I’m okay driving here.
Glennon Doyle:
We moved and the streets are thinner. And so it’s just like-
Brandi Carlile:
Those thin streets.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
They’re no thinner than the cars. [crosstalk 00:36:19] they fit just as well when I drive.
Brandi Carlile:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Some of us just have things that we’re good at, but some of us have things that we’re not and it’s okay.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah, but what came first? Because I never had a complaint about my driving and I didn’t have any accidents or anything. And I drove on the other side of the road and I thought I was doing really well. And I only deviated to the wrong side of the road once and-
Abby Wambach:
That’ll do it. That’s it.
Catherine Carlile:
… she wasn’t even in the car by the way. But now I feel like she made me a really bad driver.
Glennon Doyle:
Nice. That’s how I feel.
Catherine Carlile:
Because she’s putting me on edge all time.
Glennon Doyle:
Same.
Catherine Carlile:
And making me second guess this thing.
Abby Wambach:
That’s true.
Glennon Doyle:
And by the way, when have all of my accidents been in? Just recently.
Abby Wambach:
Can I ask you both a serious question?
Catherine Carlile:
She’s’ showing you [crosstalk 00:37:02].
Glennon Doyle:
I’ve lost my confidence.
Abby Wambach:
But can I ask you both a serious question?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
When you’re driving with Brandi and you’re driving with me, would you prefer to be driving or would you prefer to be in the passenger seat?
Brandi Carlile:
I love this question, let’s be honest now.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I would prefer not to be driving.
Abby Wambach:
See. [crosstalk 00:37:18].
Glennon Doyle:
Because I’m yelled at [crosstalk 00:37:20].
Catherine Carlile:
That would be my answer.
Brandi Carlile:
You would prefer not to be driving because you are sleeping and you are sleeping every single drive. It could be five minutes. It could be an hour. You are asleep immediately.
Catherine Carlile:
It’s the heated seat.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s the heat. [crosstalk 00:37:35]
Catherine Carlile:
[crosstalk 00:37:36]people.Brandi Carlile:
So the biggest complain I have about Catherine is I think she will fall asleep.
Catherine Carlile:
I mean, If I feel sleepy, I wind the window down and it’s so fine. And I turn off the heat.
Glennon Doyle:
I think that Catherine is a spiritual genius. This sleeping thing is the answer.
Catherine Carlile:
It really works.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Catherine Carlile:
It’s good. It really works.
Brandi Carlile:
She can really sleep, this girl.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So what ways do you feel like you are the most similar?
Catherine Carlile:
That’s a good question. Don’t think we’ve ever been asked that before.
Brandi Carlile:
We are actually similar in so many ways. I think we are both artists.
Glennon Doyle:
For sure.
Brandi Carlile:
And there’s a whole lot of who’s going to protect us going on sometimes because when we transition into that place of being artists, there’s no adult in the room.
Abby Wambach:
Wow. That’s cool.
Glennon Doyle:
Like what, give me an example of what that looks like.
Catherine Carlile:
Well, I think you have to tune out and go into another place when you create and we have two kids, so.
Brandi Carlile:
And that’s good at the same time.
Catherine Carlile:
And that’s interesting. That’s an interesting scenario. Quite often that will be a source of frustration for me because I always feel like naturally that space should belong to Brandi first and foremost, because it’s our bread and butter really. Whereas for me it’s more of a hobby, I guess. It isn’t like of [crosstalk 00:38:54].
Brandi Carlile:
We’re highly sensitive to each other’s writing.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Brandi Carlile:
My wife is so cool. There have been some times where, well, not sometimes every time if, and I don’t write very often, but if I do go glossy eyed and I wind up at that piano and I will look around 20 minutes later and every light in the house will be off. There’ll be a candle, a glass of wine and she’ll be gone. And so will the kids.
Catherine Carlile:
Well, I mean, I’m witnessing-
Brandi Carlile:
I’m like she did it again.
Catherine Carlile:
… well I’m witnessing something that’s coming from somewhere.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow. You’re witnessing something that’s coming from somewhere. Tell me what you mean.
Catherine Carlile:
Well, she would say it comes from God, but I’m a British atheist. So it’s hard for me to get on that.
Brandi Carlile:
You’re agnostic.
Catherine Carlile:
Agnostic. Yeah. Sorry. Whoops.
Abby Wambach:
It’s so interesting that [crosstalk 00:39:39].
Glennon Doyle:
I do. Every time Abby says she atheist, I’m like agnostic, agnostic.
Abby Wambach:
They both married
Catherine Carlile:
I know agnostic, agnostic. Yes. I believe in something. I don’t know what it is. Agnostic. But no, and she’s not a disciplined writer and she doesn’t write all the time. It’s very whimsical. It’s very spontaneous to the point where she could just be going past the piano and just go plunk and then be like, Ooh. And she’ll sit down and then she’ll write this masterpiece. So for me, that’s a really precious thing and I’ll do anything I can to facilitate it because I know how these things come and go and you should seize the moment with creativity, even if it’s inconvenient.
Abby Wambach:
That’s super magic.
Glennon Doyle:
So beautiful. That reminds me of the real key thing that’s, love is protecting each other’s solitude.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah. I try my best to.
Abby Wambach:
I thought you were going to tell a story that reminds me of a time when you did this.
Glennon Doyle:
No, it reminds [crosstalk 00:40:29].
Brandi Carlile:
I remember something, are you going to tell them I build you a cabin or do I have to?
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah, she did. Yeah. Not with your bare hands. I mean, come on. Well, we live in a very small log cabin and I was after a couple of years of marriage and two kids or whatever, I was starting to crave some space and we have a very busy house, all lots of people coming and going all the time. Her favorite sound, the driveway wheels on the road. And I was going slowly insane at that point. So she was very intuitive about it. And she suggested I needed a room of one’s own. Virginia Wolf. I definitely didn’t have that. And she created that space for me. She-
Brandi Carlile:
Me and those Amish guys.
Catherine Carlile:
… yeah. It’s a place that could log cabin [crosstalk 00:41:18].
Glennon Doyle:
Do they live with you also?
Brandi Carlile:
They came from Montana Hamish and Jayballs.
Glennon Doyle:
Stop it.
Brandi Carlile:
Swear to God.
Glennon Doyle:
Are you being serious?
Brandi Carlile:
No. Dead serious. Hamish and Jayballs came out, stayed on the property for about five days and we built the cutest log cabin for Catherine.
Catherine Carlile:
It’s special.
Brandi Carlile:
It’s filled with instruments and all the things that she likes. And she goes out there and writes all the time.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my gosh. No way.
Catherine Carlile:
And I just installed blinds because I realized I could still see all the things happening and I could still see my children. So I have to have a blind pulled down as well. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I had to work in the closet.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah, that’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
And then when I thought, well, I need an office because I’m a grownup. So when we moved houses, I got a big office and I couldn’t do it.
Catherine Carlile:
Did you have [crosstalk 00:41:56]?
Glennon Doyle:
I wrote all Untamed, even in our new house, in the closet.
Catherine Carlile:
Really?
Abby Wambach:
In the closet of the office. Office closet.
Glennon Doyle:
It was like a little troll, underneath a eve and had this one little teeny table and had to be with. Because of that, I would still see, remember my life and I can’t remember my life. So how often do you write? Because we get to hear all of Brandi’s stuff?
Catherine Carlile:
Just whenever I can. It’s not a priority for me. I always choose work and kids and Brandi. But on the rare occasion, I’m disciplined enough to be like, I’m going to that log cabin to write. I typically have a great time and end up being really prolific and productive and I love it.
Glennon Doyle:
What do you love to write about?
Catherine Carlile:
I like to write for other people. I find that really interesting to put my head and walk in somebody else’s shoes and to write about somebody else. That’s a really good exercise as a writer. If you feel like you’re uninspired by your own happy life. Whatever, about my kids, about Brandi, whatever’s on my mind.
Glennon Doyle:
And do you not have, because one of the things we talk about is people say, well, there’s a kite in every relationship and a kite holder and the kite holder is the one who holds the one who’s out there and doing all the thing. And that’s bullshit because then there’s one person who always has to be grounded. So with us, there’s somebody who’s staying grounded and then switch sometimes.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you guys feel that or do you not have a desire to be as out there as Brandi?
Catherine Carlile:
I don’t have a desire.
Glennon Doyle:
So you don’t have anything that’s, I wish I was doing that?
Catherine Carlile:
Oh God, no, no. It makes me so nervous watching her have to do these terrifying things all day long, all the time. I’m much happier to just support and watch and so no, I don’t have a desire to do that. But I’m very immersed in it and interested and inspired by it. And yeah. So no, I don’t want to get on stage and do that.
Glennon Doyle:
It is so terrifying. I remember seeing her, we went to your-
Abby Wambach:
Listening party.
Glennon Doyle:
I was about to say coming out party.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. The album, the release of the album. We listened to the album.
Glennon Doyle:
That night was so ridiculous.
Brandi Carlile:
Wasn’t that fun?
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God. It was okay, listening party. I was a bunch of people in a backyard and it was the first time anybody had heard the new album.
Brandi Carlile:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And you performed some of it-
Abby Wambach:
Played all of it.
Glennon Doyle:
… on the ocean. People just sat on couches and listened to it. And I think it was the first time a lot of us had been out in long times. And seeing all of these amazing-
Abby Wambach:
And it was safe and it was outside and everybody’s eating Mac and cheese.
Brandi Carlile:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Really good.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m listening to the album for the first time.
Abby Wambach:
Sofas, you rented sofas. And so we were sitting on sofas outside and Catherine was so acutely nervous for you.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s when I remember she came over and she’s like, why does she want to do this crazy shit? She was so-
Abby Wambach:
So sweet.
Glennon Doyle:
… and so supportive and so beautiful. And that was the night that everybody figured out that this album was going to be insane. It was so good. And so moving.
Brandi Carlile:
But I was really focused in, on the couch you guys were at. It was like, really it’s really important to me what you guys think. And it was really important to me and Catherine that you were there. And that’s why-
Catherine Carlile:
We know you don’t get out much.
Brandi Carlile:
… that’s why we sent you demos. That’s why it’s like you’re an important part of our lives. And we see you guys as pivotal peers, don’t we?
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah, absolutely.
Glennon Doyle:
Same.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Brandi Carlile:
There’s a lot of similarities too in our relationships and it’s weird. It switches.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Another reason, another thing that we struggle with is when we do have some disagreement, this is now where we begin.
Glennon Doyle:
Great. So we’re done with that. So that thing whatever. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Forever. We don’t go backwards. We start here and this is where we start.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I feel like if you work really hard, you know how an argument is like conflict is like you’re working something out together, what’s the point of it if you’re not getting to a new understanding? And then I want to move on from that understanding. I don’t want to go backwards anymore because it’s progress.
Abby Wambach:
Having the same fight over and over again, it’s a struggle for not coming. I’m like, let’s do it.
Brandi Carlile:
Have you guys ever heard of the book… Hear the book, what is it called? It’s like how-
Catherine Carlile:
How let your sun go down?
Brandi Carlile:
… no, no. That’s my lyric based on the book. But the book is called, How to Not Talk About Your Marriage or how to-
Catherine Carlile:
No. How to not Talk About Your Fight Your Problems. What was it?
Brandi Carlile:
I don’t know. But the whole premise of the book is instead of the concept of don’t ever let the sun go down on your anger, you should always let the sun go down on your anger.
Abby Wambach:
Right. Right.
Brandi Carlile:
Just let something pass for a long time before you talk about it, then you’ll know if it’s still really important or not.
Catherine Carlile:
It’s that go to sleep people.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Go back to the spiritual sleep.
Catherine Carlile:
To sleep.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, we’ve talked about that before my sister and I like, what is that rule is so stupid of keep talking about it. Because you’re your worst. You’re talking about something very sensitive so you should keep talking about it when you’re exhausted.
Brandi Carlile:
Yeah. Like what’s-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s your worst self.
Brandi Carlile:
… picture of the outcome happening in that situation. It’s not going to happen.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Brandi Carlile:
We had an argument the other day. What was it? We ended up laughing at each other. We were still in the middle of it. And we went, started cracking up laughing. And I was like, well, okay, that one ended in the middle of it.
Catherine Carlile:
I can’t remember.
Brandi Carlile:
I think I said something like I barked at you and you barked at me. I had said something rude to you. And I’m like, well, you really piss me off. And I was probably Kim. And you were like, well, that’s what you do. You do this. And I don’t talk to you for two days. And I was like, can we just skip that? But we ended up being this laughing thing where we were just laughing. And I was like, well, that worked.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah, we laughed about it.
Glennon Doyle:
Is that best? Wasn’t it Esther Perel who says sometimes when she’s in the middle of a fight, she just lay down on the ground.
Catherine Carlile:
Really?
Glennon Doyle:
Because that like, injecting humor into how ridiculous something… You can’t keep angry momentum going on when something absurd happens.
Catherine Carlile:
Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
We get to that point where we keep saying the same thing, I’ll say the same thing five times, she’ll say the same thing five times.
Glennon Doyle:
Then we crack up.
Abby Wambach:
And then all of a sudden we’ll go, we just need a moment. And then we take a two minute break. We just don’t say a word for a couple minutes. And then we’re like, I think we’re good. Are we good?
Glennon Doyle:
I forgot. I forgot.
Abby Wambach:
It’s like, we’re not coming to a resolution. Nobody’s winning here. Let’s just like move on. I think that might be where the 40s and 50s are at of age terms of… Because it’s like, the more I know is the more I realize I have to just accept you for exactly who you are and have no reason or need for you to ever change because history has it. It’s just never-
Glennon Doyle:
Never going to happen.
Abby Wambach:
… I’m never changing. You’re never changing until I want to change. Until you want to change.
Glennon Doyle:
What do you want for your family and your relationship for this next chapter? What’s your dream next?
Catherine Carlile:
Well for the pandemic to be over first and foremost, obviously. My dream for my family is that we just find a way to stay together.
Brandi Carlile:
That’s mine too. It’s like, let her answer this. Let her, don’t do it. Don’t do it. Stay together, stay together, stay together.
Catherine Carlile:
Well done Brandi, well done. Well done. I must have picked it up for you. No. Yeah. Just to manage, to stay together in a sane way in the midst of all this chaos and-
Brandi Carlile:
That’s good.
Catherine Carlile:
… crazy times and working really hard and just keeping us together.
Glennon Doyle:
Do You mean physically?
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Brandi Carlile:
Physically. We like to experience things all together and even not the great things. All of our traveling and our music and our activism, we like to do it as the four of us for as long as we can, because we know that soon, these kids will aggregate, soon they’re going to have their own things and they might not want to come on the road and a time is coming when they’re going to say, mom, I want to be with my friends or I want to go to this school. I want to do this thing. And since now’s not that time, I just want us to stay together for as long as we can.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so beautiful how you do that. Do you go everywhere together?
Catherine Carlile:
We try to. Yeah. I mean, it’s not great a lot of the time, they get overtired, I get irritable. Brandi gets beside ourself and we’re all in this hotel room wondering why on earth we’re not in our nice cozy log cabin. But there’s something beautiful in all the chaos I think.
Brandi Carlile:
I think so too.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah.
Brandi Carlile:
We just keep doubling down on that co-dependence. It’s just double down.
Catherine Carlile:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
[crosstalk 00:50:41] totally. I feel it. I feel it.Glennon Doyle:
I love it. I love it. Because what are you going to do? Go have these experiences that change you and then that’s the growing apart, right?
Brandi Carlile:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Glennon Doyle:
And then you’re trying to explain it to each other. When I’m on the road, we get to the end of the day and we’re supposed to be having healthy relationships or check in on the phone. I can’t check in on the phone.
Abby Wambach:
You’re the worst phone person.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m like in there or here. And I can’t do both. I can’t translate life. It’s hard to translate life to someone. So you either have to do it together.
Brandi Carlile:
I know what you mean. And I will not call. And it’s like, she thinks it’s a punishment, but it’s like, if she doesn’t come with me, I will not call.
Catherine Carlile:
It is a punishment.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Catherine Carlile:
She becomes very despondent. She won’t call. She won’t pick up the phone.
Abby Wambach:
You’re like, you did this.
Glennon Doyle:
You did this to yourself.
Catherine Carlile:
You did this to yourself.
Abby Wambach:
You did this [crosstalk 00:51:27].
Catherine Carlile:
What do you want for your family?
Glennon Doyle:
Oh God. I mean, our family is changing so much.
Brandi Carlile:
What’s that like?
Glennon Doyle:
Because Chase is gone now.
Abby Wambach:
He’s in college.
Glennon Doyle:
He just came back.
Abby Wambach:
He’s not gone, he’s in college.
Glennon Doyle:
He’s just gone forever.
Catherine Carlile:
He’s gone.
Glennon Doyle:
And we just had him back for the first time and it was really emotional for me because I think I had this fear and I told him this halfway through that, when you raise them your way, you teach them all the things and you teach them your way of thinking and how you think about the world and you do your best and then you send them away and you realize when they leave, they’re going to learn about other families and how they did it. And other ideas and they’re going to start judging you for real, because you can’t really judge your situation until you’re out of it.
Abby Wambach:
Till you see another situation, till you talk to other people who are they’re not near their parents to like, oh no, it’s all good.
Glennon Doyle:
What your family like what was-
Abby Wambach:
I like my parents.
Glennon Doyle:
… and so it’s scary because it’s like this if feels, it’s not, but it feels like a test of everything that you’ve done for the… Send them out and see if they still like you. If they still respect.
Abby Wambach:
If they want to come home.
Glennon Doyle:
If they still-
Catherine Carlile:
God.
Glennon Doyle:
And I can get so weird with Chase because he’s the first, he’d come into the room and I’d turn it from the Real Housewives to a documentary on turtles. So he would think I’m smart.
Abby Wambach:
No, literally. Literally. Literally. She was in the bathtub in our bedroom, in our bed bathroom. And I was upstairs in the top floor and she texted me and she’s like, what are you watching? And I’m like, my show. Nobody’s up there, I’m by myself. She said, I would prefer if you don’t watch any killing or any kind of thing in the common areas.
Glennon Doyle:
But you guys, the vampires, the killing, the guns, it’s such a… That’s all she watches.
Catherine Carlile:
What show are you watching.
Abby Wambach:
It’s called Last Kingdom, it’s on Netflix. It’s what I do when I’m alone.
Glennon Doyle:
Vikings. [crosstalk 00:53:24].
Brandi Carlile:
To be fair, I saw the Instagram of you in the bathtub looking like there was not an ounce of energy left in your soul. And it’s like, if somebody’s visiting and especially somebody as important as your child and you set yourself aside for long enough, you’re going to think it’s them you’re sick of and ready for them to leave. But really you’re sick of not being able to be yourself.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
And Brandi, that’s a story of my life.
Brandi Carlile:
Wow.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
One time my friend said we’re going to New York to go to this meeting. And I said, it was like a fancy thing. And it was for a publisher or something. I said, what am I supposed to do? And she said, just be yourself. And I said, I don’t know how much longer I can keep that up. Anyway, the point is he came home and he still loves us. And he just hung out and was wonderful.
Abby Wambach:
Glennon got an A plus on her report card. Her mothering report card.
Catherine Carlile:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
It wasn’t like a report card. It’s just an energy that when you want them to come home and feel like-
Abby Wambach:
Home.
Glennon Doyle:
Like you’re a resting place, like you a charging station or a safe, good place to come back to. And that’s how it felt. So I don’t know. It’s just, I guess with family it’s like-
Abby Wambach:
And we both are keenly and aware of being in an environment in high school where you couldn’t… Where I couldn’t be my full self. So going to college was a paradise. It was like going to the place where I could finally become myself. And so going home for the holidays or I never went home for summer, for break. I just stayed in college because that’s where I felt like myself. And so it’s just really important to us as parents that our kids can feel like their true full self at their house.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what I mean. I’m just like, do you feel like this is the place where you’re held and free?
Catherine Carlile:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Or do you feel like you left and now you can be free.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
And so that’s what you’re trying to figure out after they leave.
Abby Wambach:
And as a parent, you’re like, hoping that they… Because you don’t know, you only hope. And then when you get confirmation, oh no, they do feel free. I did it how I wanted to do it because the way that it might be impacted might be different.
Glennon Doyle:
In some ways.
Brandi Carlile:
Because this is an elaborate way for you to tell us, we have to accept the American girl doll. Are these the things you have to think about now with kids that are this age?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Brandi Carlile:
Because I mean, I think about this all the time. How do you keep them wanting to be with you?
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. That’s what it is.
Brandi Carlile:
How.
Glennon Doyle:
My entire life is just trying to keep them wanting to be with me. It’s pathetic.
Abby Wambach:
You just keep telling them that they’re perfect. And then whoever they show up every day is exactly who you want to be around.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s all it. That’s it. Because it’s not about-
Brandi Carlile:
My plan is at four wheelers or zip lines.
Glennon Doyle:
… okay.
Abby Wambach:
That will be probably also sprinkled within.
Glennon Doyle:
But what if you have a poet child who doesn’t want to go on… If you said that to me, what did you just say? Say that again.
Brandi Carlile:
My plan is four-wheelers or zip lines.
Glennon Doyle:
Unsafe. Not safe.
Catherine Carlile:
Well, there’s always my roast potatoes.
Brandi Carlile:
Or her roast potatoes.
Glennon Doyle:
Potatoes.
Brandi Carlile:
Well, if I have a poet, I will say, if you come around to me and mommy’s house, we’re going to have Glennon and Abby over. Okay.
Catherine Carlile:
There you go. Lure them in.
Brandi Carlile:
Look how smart we are.
Abby Wambach:
It’s tricky.
Brandi Carlile:
It’s Glennon and Abby you want to come around to?
Abby Wambach:
Because what if, and I just pose this as a question. What if Elijah or Evangeline are the kind of person that… What if they’re just like uber fem? What they might be then feeling in your house is the exact thing that you were feeling?
Brandi Carlile:
I think so.
Abby Wambach:
But just in an opposite way.
Brandi Carlile:
I’m really sensitive to this. Because what you’re talking about is absolutely playing itself out all the time. There are things that are so natural to them. This nurture nature concept is fascinating to me all the time. They have, at least at this point in their lives, embraced a gender expression that I’ve got to learn to navigate and Catherine’s got to learn to navigate. And both of us are just like, look at our hands.
Abby Wambach:
It’s so hard.
Brandi Carlile:
Look at our hands.
Abby Wambach:
It’s like, look at my gay hands.
Brandi Carlile:
Yeah. look at our gay hands. But I mean, with the exception of the American girl doll, I love it.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Cool.
Glennon Doyle:
Really.
Brandi Carlile:
I love it. Yeah. And I’ve really taken to ordering the… When they switch from pajamas to night gowns, that was the big one for me because I love little babies in their pajamas, it’s the cutest thing you’ve ever seen. Their footies and everything. And they’re like, we want night gowns and we want lace on these things and frill and it was Elsa.
Glennon Doyle:
And you were able to embrace it.
Brandi Carlile:
Elsa fucked it all up.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, they looked like human cup cakes.
Catherine Carlile:
Yeah. She did.
Glennon Doyle:
They looked like human cupcakes. I mean, last time you guys came and Evangeline came, you guys had gotten her a little silver Barret that was crystals on it.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. She gave that to you.
Glennon Doyle:
She gave it to me.
Catherine Carlile:
Well, you obviously did make an impression.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s upstairs.
Catherine Carlile:
Even though the book report.
Brandi Carlile:
You didn’t make the book report.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Catherine Carlile:
She gave you her precious thing.
Glennon Doyle:
She gave me her precious thing.
Brandi Carlile:
Yeah. I’ll just never forget when she told you guys were going to play that game and there had a timer on it. It’s like, so Evangeline and she’s like, I don’t get timed.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That was it. I got rid of that timer real fast.
Brandi Carlile:
I’m like, okay.
Glennon Doyle:
She does not get timed. As if it had already been decided by a committee.
Brandi Carlile:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
I like it though. Heidi knows. She knows the stipulations.
Brandi Carlile:
This is revolutionary. This stuff we’re talking about. It’s two couples just having a conversation but LGBTQIA domesticity family discussions, they really are radical. The concept of it is radical. I could not have imagined it when Catherine and I got married illegally without a license all those years ago to think that not only are we all really married, but we’re sitting here talking with kids as atypical parents and by every definition about how to navigate these waters, that we are really finally able to get a glimpse at. It’s radical. And it feels good and feels like home. But also it’s pretty crazy.
Abby Wambach:
And I think maybe this could have something to do with the homophobia that my mom might have struggled with during my teenage years. Not knowing if I-
Brandi Carlile:
Wondering if you could ever have a life like this.
Abby Wambach:
… if I could have what she has because I couldn’t then.
Brandi Carlile:
Almost makes you-
Abby Wambach:
It was impossible.
Brandi Carlile:
… want to extend a little bit of compassion.
Abby Wambach:
Totally. Yeah.
Brandi Carlile:
I feel that way now.
Catherine Carlile:
Hopefully that sense of grief is going to become a thing of the past. Because I think that was my mom’s default was like, am I going to have grandkids still? But yeah. Hopefully that’s going to go away. [crosstalk 01:00:15].
Abby Wambach:
And ours are fucking rad.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
One has produced a song with Brandi Carlile.
Glennon Doyle:
Speaking of, what we will let you listen to that right now. Thank you for this.
Brandi Carlile:
Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
I have loved this so much.
Brandi Carlile:
So fun.
Glennon Doyle:
Every minute of it.
Catherine Carlile:
It was amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
We Can Do Hard Things. Guys, we had to do it on a podcast to finally have a real double date.
Brandi Carlile:
I know right.
Glennon Doyle:
I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlile.