Pet Love: Are Animals the Closest We Come to Unconditional Love?
February 24, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Hello, to our favorite people in all the world, you.
Abby Wambach:
Hattie just burped.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Our dogs are here. So bear with us a little bit. There is a reason for that. There is a reason that our dogs are crawling on our lap right now. Here’s what we’re talking about today. As many of you may have noticed, sister… Hi sissy.
Amanda Doyle:
Hi.
Glennon Doyle:
Has been on a mission I feel like since we started this podcast. I think sister has been on a serious spiritual mission since this podcast began.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
Because we’re talking about everything.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. We have forced her.
Abby Wambach:
We’re forcing her-
Glennon Doyle:
To talk about her life.
Abby Wambach:
Yep. To diagnose and treat our own selves.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And it’s a whole thing when you have to start digging in and… Anyway, sister decided along the way that she would like to have more life in her life. This is a question. Where is the life in our lives? Sister decided that she might, even her achieving type a alpha self would also like to have some delight in joy. Am I saying that correctly?
Amanda Doyle:
Well, I mean-
Glennon Doyle:
No, I’m not.
Abby Wambach:
I think it’s less aspirational and more just desperation. It’s not working for me. So am I desperate enough to consider alternatives? Because I might have reached the bottom of where this particular life is going to take.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So, on this podcast, that’s fair. We are less inspirational and aspirational and more desperational.
Amanda Doyle:
Hashtag desperational.
Glennon Doyle:
Hashtag we are less committed to wellness and more committed to just less dying slowly inside.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. That’s correct.
Glennon Doyle:
But you felt open to possible avenues of more delight. Would you say that? You felt your little grinch heart preparing to expand three sizes?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. I thought clearly the calculations that I’ve made here to four have only gotten me here to four. So I am open to the idea that maybe out of an abundance of data suggesting there might be another way.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Right. Okay. So at that point here we are going along on our lives and then your whole family comes to our family in California for the holidays for two weeks. And what I would say about your children when they arrive-
Amanda Doyle:
Would you say about my children?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, one thing that I would say about my unbelievably fantastic niece and nephew are that when they see our dogs, all they do is lose their little damn minds for two weeks. Hattie, who is our little golden doodle type dog is thrilled by this. She has people to play with her. It’s just so happy. Honey, our French bulldog, well, she feels otherwise.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, maybe. I think that-
Amanda Doyle:
More just like reigning queen. She’s like, I grace you with my presence.
Abby Wambach:
She’s also smaller than Hattie, so you can pick honey up. And so this is where Alice and Bobby they’ll take her, they’ll maneuver her. They play with her as if she’s the not live dog. More like she’s a doll.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. And then so we watch, so Honey’s on depression watch when they’re here.
Abby Wambach:
She’s getting poked and prodded for a couple weeks. She loves it though.
Amanda Doyle:
But just so everyone understands the context. My kids are so obsessed with your animals that we bought Allison special locket a couple years ago. And I told her she could pick any member of the family, any family picture she wanted to put in there, anything that made her the happiest. And she unequivocally and very quickly said, oh, I will have a picture of Honey. So the bull dog. And anything in life that brought her joy and made her feel connected and loved, and she picked your dog. So now she has a locket with your dog in it.
Abby Wambach:
Amazing.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And so when you were here, we ended up talking a lot about the possibility of one day you all getting a dog and, well you felt a teeny bit open to it because your husband was raised with German shepherds and dogs. But I think you had this real feeling that you’re still in the chaos of young children. The freaking dripping with children. No minutes, no bodily autonomy, no sanity moments. Tell us how you felt about the idea of adding a dog to your family.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, it felt like someone who’s doggy paddling just to stay afloat, about to drown, and then say you handed them a dog. And that’s how it felt. It felt like, oh good. So I’m barely making it, why don’t you put a dog on top of my not so buoyant body, but that’s how I felt. But I did feel resigned to it because it was probably our third date the first time that I had met John’s mom and the first thing she said to me was, well, Amanda, I hope you know that if you married John, you’re going to have to have a dog. It was like out of the gate. So I think-
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, it was meant in love.
Abby Wambach:
Of course. Leading with that though, I’m just saying that that’s a non-negotiable.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. It has felt like that. So I was kind of resigned to it. But if you would ever have told me that I would intentionally elect to cohabitate with an animal except under resigned duress. I would tell you have me confused with someone who is a little easy breezy. So it didn’t feel so much like an election, it just kind of felt like, well, that has to happen.
Abby Wambach:
An appointment.
Amanda Doyle:
What happened was I kept telling my kids since they were two. Oh, eventually in a few years when you’re old enough. And at one point maybe when they were quite young, I said, apparently to Bobby, when you’re 10, because it felt millions of miles away.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
But then unfortunately what happened was he is nine and a half right now and he reminded me of that.
Glennon Doyle:
Note to listeners who have young children. You never put a number on a promise.
Abby Wambach:
Yes
Glennon Doyle:
You keep it ambiguous. You are not going in five minutes. You’re not going to be there in five minutes. You’re not going to get a dog when they’re 10. You’re not you’re going to do it sometime.
Amanda Doyle:
Right?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Maybe.
Amanda Doyle:
Sometime.
Glennon Doyle:
Maybe, perhaps.
Abby Wambach:
Sometime maybe [crosstalk 00:07:40]
Amanda Doyle:
We’ll see. We’ll see.
Glennon Doyle:
We’ll see means hell to the no. Right. Okay. But I feel this like little creaking of the dog door open because I can see a little bit with you when I see a little… You’re usually a yes or a hell no. So when I see any wavering I feel, oh, there’s hope. There’s hope.
Abby Wambach:
Hell hath no fury like Glennon Doyle whom which has now found a little slice of a door ajar.
Glennon Doyle:
There was no database.
Abby Wambach:
Y’all she pulled a computer, was doing research-
Glennon Doyle:
Searching for shelters for baby German shepherds-
Abby Wambach:
That’s we talked about during the holidays.
Amanda Doyle:
So yes, I believe the door was a tiny bit ajar and I’m like, okay, it’s happening. Because if not now, when? If not me, who? So it’s out there. It’s out there. It’s coming. So it’s time. It’s not like they’re going to be seniors in high school and we’re going to be like, well now you get a dog. So we started actually talking about it. And then the week we got home from the holidays, my sweet neighbor, who’s amazing, who she found me my kids therapist. She found me their educational diagnostic people. She found me my therapist. She giveth unto me good things.
Glennon Doyle:
She brings a lot to the table. God, I love friends like that. You just know you can call them and they’re going to know everything.
Amanda Doyle:
And with a light hand, but just I’m struggling with this. Okay. I got your person and I’m going to help you out. And so she texts me out of the blue. She knows nothing about the context. And she says, I have the perfect dog for your family.
Glennon Doyle:
So this is the moment where you think if you’re waiting for a sign, here’s the sign.
Amanda Doyle:
And of course, because what I do in those situations where I’m given signs is I say, look, an eagle. And I try to run in the other direction.
Glennon Doyle:
I know, you called me, and you’re like, my friend said, I have the perfect dog for you. What do you think? I’m like what do you mean what do I think? What are you waiting for the dog to actually arrive in your bed with a bow around it? Yes, this is the sign.
Amanda Doyle:
So I ignored that text from her. And then a week later she said, are you just going to ignore the text where I said I have the perfect dog for you? And so I said, okay, tell me about the dog. So she fosters, and love, love, and so many shout outs to all of the doggy foster people in the world. It’s such a beautiful gift to protect these little ones after they’re going through these big transitions. So she is fostering this dog. She loves this dog. She thinks he’s perfect for our family. We say, okay, can we meet the dog? We meet the dog. We start spending a lot of time with the dog.
Abby Wambach:
It’s like a relationship.
Amanda Doyle:
It is.
Abby Wambach:
You’re dating. So cute.
Amanda Doyle:
And I become, much to my surprise, utterly obsessed with the dog. I love him. I love him so much. We go through this whole process where we try to adopt him. I am sweating so much. I have to write a letter to-
Glennon Doyle:
You have to have a home study.
Amanda Doyle:
… adoption, a home study come to my house. I make my kids, I’m like be normal. No one be weird. Everyone act a way loving normal people would act. I’m so nervous. And we do the whole thing and they ask us lots of questions, referrals, they call-
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, they have to call for character references.
Glennon Doyle:
Who did you use for character references? Did you have neighbors? Because no one called me.
Abby Wambach:
Nobody called us.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, a friend and a neighbor I used and then they said yes-
Glennon Doyle:
And now who do you have?
Amanda Doyle:
We have Shamus the golden retriever. He is one year and seven months old. He is so precious. He had an original owner that could not care for him anymore. And so then he went to my neighbor’s house and then he came here and he is amazing. I love him.
Glennon Doyle:
And so we have both seen flashes of delight in you since this little dog came. Can you tell us… Because I think we wait until our lives are under control to add absurd, delightful things. We think joy, absurdity, delight, unproductive just nonsense is for when everything else is under control. So we have that feeling where we’re like, I’m treading water, I can’t add a dog, but it didn’t end up feeling like somebody put a dog in your hands while you were trying not to drown. What does it feel more like?
Amanda Doyle:
It feels more like a reason to go play in the pool.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
It reminds me of the friendship episode when it’s like, who the hell has time for friends when you don’t even have time for the bazillion things in your life and it’s all too much? And it’s like, oh wait, no, that’s exactly why we need friendship because somehow when you add lovely soul affirming things to your life, it makes the rest of it less heavy.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And I just feel like, I don’t know. It’s so interesting. At therapy yesterday and my therapist was talking about how we, as people, we each have these essential selves, but then we have all this armor we put around us and then the people in our lives, they have their essential selves, but then they have all the armor. So when we’re bumping into those people, it’s just armor bumping into armor. We’re never getting to the essential… And I realized… I’m sure there was a bigger lesson for me in my life for it, but I just kept thinking about Shamus and I’m like, that’s it. He’s just his essential being all the time. He’s just what he is just going about being exactly who he is at all times. And it’s silly and nonsensical, but there’s no armor around any of it. And that is disarming.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
It puts you in a different place. And I think there’s certain people like this in our lives, but very, very rare. Abby, I actually think you are, of all the people I know, the most regularly, essentially yourself. I think that’s what is so magnetic about you. That’s why you’re irresistible to anyone around you is because you are your essential being a vast majority of the time. And I think animals and the very rare people like that we interact with, it’s just so magnetic because-
Abby Wambach:
Maybe that’s why I connect so well with dogs.
Glennon Doyle:
Maybe. I don’t know.
Abby Wambach:
I’m just joking. I think that’s such a beautiful point to see because dogs to me have, or pets, have this unique ability to interrupt what’s going on in your life and both good and bad. There’s some times where I’m pissed at Honey like peed on the wood, the floor.
Glennon Doyle:
She does pee a lot.
Abby Wambach:
But at the end of the day, the interruption is almost always like really welcomed.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Because whatever you else you were worrying about or doing was kind of bullshit.
Abby Wambach:
They don’t talk to you. So you have to actually create this dialogue of what they’re thinking, what you think their experience is. That’s what I do. I’m like, oh she’s cold.
Glennon Doyle:
All we do is talk about what they’re thinking and for sure, they’re not thinking any of the things-
Abby Wambach:
She’s feeling this.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Look at her. She’s so mad at us that we left. Look at her. She’s so…
Abby Wambach:
She’s so sad. Oh my God. Hattie you just looked at us in this really funny, sad way.
Amanda Doyle:
The projection of emotions of the dogs is hilarious. John walked in the other day. I was on the floor. I’m so worried about Shamus’ emotional stability. And just because he got left after a year and a half of his life. So I’m on the floor saying we’re never going to leave you. You have a home here forever. You can just lay down that burden of worry. And John walks in and he’s like, yeah, you’ve never had dogs before.
Glennon Doyle:
Remember when Craig and I got Theo from the shelter? Theo now lives with Craig down the street. Also our dog. We went and found Theo and Theo we knew belonged to us, but then we had to leave because they had to do all the checks. And then they told me we need another day because we’re going to clean him all up. Do you remember this?
Amanda Doyle:
Oh yes. You were so upset.
Glennon Doyle:
And I was so upset. Don’t you clean him first. I don’t want him to learn that he has to be fancy and clean before his family takes him. We will take him dirty. Thank you.
Abby Wambach:
That’s great.
Glennon Doyle:
And then we went and got him and we were like ew.
Abby Wambach:
Why didn’t you guys clean him?
Glennon Doyle:
And now with Honey and Hattie, I just feel strongly that both of these dogs are the only people who truly understand me.
Abby Wambach:
People by the way.
Glennon Doyle:
And also they teach me everything about unconditional love.
Abby Wambach:
Oh yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Because in different ways, all right, Hattie, the golden doodle thing, amazing, I’m staring at her right now, she teaches me about unconditional because she loves everyone unconditionally. It doesn’t matter if you’ve been gone for one second or a week, it doesn’t matter. She just is in so much love, so much affection. Just her energy is I love you. I love you. I love you. And so I learn how to be unconditionally loved from her and with Honey, the bulldog, I learn how to love something unconditionally who doesn’t give a crap about me.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a gift of unrequited love.
Glennon Doyle:
It is. She really only loves me be because I’m warm.
Abby Wambach:
It’s conditioned.
Glennon Doyle:
The conditions are, are you a warm body?
Amanda Doyle:
Like temperature wise.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s not… Right.
Glennon Doyle:
Just like, do you have sweatpants on that are soft and cozy?
Amanda Doyle:
What are you bringing to the table Doyle?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, that’s it. Or do you have food for me?
Abby Wambach:
Do you feed me?
Glennon Doyle:
Other than that, she’s a cat. So I have to learn how to love her unconditionally not based on how she treats me. So it’s like absolute opposites, but they’re both teaching me… And the one thing that I’ll say that I appreciate so much about dogs is that in this world where it feels like I’m always earning my worthiness based on how much I do, how busy I am, what I can give you, whatever, how we all feel, what I’m bringing to the table, what I’ve done for you lately. That feeling of I always have to be producing to feel like I have earned my right to exist on the earth. The dogs are the only beings that I feel love me more the less I do.
Abby Wambach:
Oh yeah. Well because you’re sitting on the couch. Whenever you’re on the couch, they’re right there.
Glennon Doyle:
Their best day for me, they’re heaven. You’re the best dog mom in the entire world would be if I sort of woke up, not really, didn’t shower, sat back on the couch, didn’t move all day and then went to bed again. Yeah. That would be their this is the best person in the… And there’s something that is so healing about this. They are a walking invitation, a walking reminder to play, and to rest, and to get fresh air.
Amanda Doyle:
Right, because your couch story assumes that Abby is taking them out for a walk at some point.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
But it’s true. And I do, I get it. It’s because I feel like as a person who lives by a spreadsheet and where it’s hard to stop or slow down, I feel like what Shamus is proving is that nonsensical things are important. When you actually do the spreadsheet, when you’re like, okay, their food and care costs many, many dollars.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh so many dollars.
Amanda Doyle:
They require a commitment of a lot of time and structure and planning and then on the deposits column-
Glennon Doyle:
Oh god.
Amanda Doyle:
… there’s nothing quantifiable. Nothing makes sense about the spreadsheet, but just their being and the delight that they offer making its just a resounding yes even though the spreadsheet says no. So my religion of the spreadsheet and there being logical, quantifiable things, it kind of ruins my religion. Because I’m like, this thing doesn’t make any sense, but yet I need it very much.
Glennon Doyle:
Dogs will destroy your capitalistic productivity religion.
Abby Wambach:
I think that what is so valuable to me about a dog is that they constantly are this mirror of oh, just be here. They’re not living in their past. They’re not living in their future. They’re right here, right now, all the time. And yes, sometimes it’s annoying when they want something right now, but at the end of the day, it’s such a good… For me, they put the be in the being. They do. They’re right here, right now, all the time. And that is when I’m at my happiest.
Glennon Doyle:
And then cats.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, don’t get me started with cats.
Glennon Doyle:
Listen. So Abby does not appreciate a cat.
Abby Wambach:
I’m allergic-
Glennon Doyle:
I’m deeply [crosstalk 00:22:56].
Abby Wambach:
I’m allergic to cats.
Glennon Doyle:
I think she just says she is so we definitely can’t get one.
Abby Wambach:
No, I’m very allergic to cats.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Well [crosstalk 00:23:01]
Abby Wambach:
The cat dander makes me sneeze.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm (affirmative) Are you physically or spiritually allergic?
Abby Wambach:
Physically.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So I appreciate a cat. Okay. And I think it’s because in life Abby’s more of a dog, but cats, they are badass with their boundaries. They are not trying to please anybody. We had cats growing up sister.
Abby Wambach:
They’re always judging. They’re always looking-
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
… at me and-
Glennon Doyle:
And I appreciate that.
Abby Wambach:
… judging me. And all I do is be like what?
Amanda Doyle:
Cats are the judgiest-
Glennon Doyle:
They’re the judgiest.
Amanda Doyle:
… animals.
Glennon Doyle:
… of the animal kingdom.
Amanda Doyle:
Do better people.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Do better.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. And I appreciate that. So they’re not trying to please, but they’re also cozy. We grew up with cat after cat after cat. Do you remember when Gummy, Gum Drop, I got to name that cat. So she had a litter of kittens in my closet and something happened. Gum Drop decided not to feed one of them. It was like this little runty runt and Gum Drop was over it. I now understand Gum Drops resistance and protest.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s hard not to feel that way about your second. It was like her [crosstalk 00:24:17] And she’s like, oh hell no. Five is my limit.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. And so there was this one kitten that was not thriving. And I think you and me or me and a friend-
Amanda Doyle:
No, it was just you and you had a friend over that night that they were born, but you made it your life’s mission to bring this little kitty along and she wouldn’t have lived. And-
Glennon Doyle:
With an eyedropper.
Amanda Doyle:
You had an eyedropper of milk and you fed that thing every single day and you kept… And remember it wouldn’t grow.
Glennon Doyle:
It wouldn’t grow.
Amanda Doyle:
It was perfect. It was kitten size for its whole life. And so it was perfect, but it was batshit crazy.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh yeah. She lost Some brain action, I think, in the beginning.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, she was amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
But did you remember how wild she was? She would attack everybody but me. Dad couldn’t feed her because she’d just go crazy and attack him.
Abby Wambach:
That sounds like a foreshadowing for your life.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Some kind of metaphor. And we named a Miracle. Oh, sweet Miracle.
Amanda Doyle:
I loved Miracle. I loved Miracle. But it’s true Abby, what you were saying, because I feel like there’s so many points where theoretically, throughout our day in our lives, we’d appreciate little moments. We could be going around being like, oh, look at that smile. Oh, look at that. We could see anything as beautiful and special, but this having a vehicle, a furry precious, lovely thing, it forces you your attention into the moments without you would otherwise-
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
… miss.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like in our family, the dogs are also a pressure release valve. You’re just staring at each other all day. And you’re like-
Abby Wambach:
We want to talk about real stuff too.
Glennon Doyle:
We’re talking about stuff, looking at each other, judging each other, trying to figure each other out.
Abby Wambach:
How are you feeling, kids?
Glennon Doyle:
And also what’s wrong with you?
Abby Wambach:
How does this make you feel?
Glennon Doyle:
And then the dog comes and everybody gets to shift literally their gaze-
Abby Wambach:
Look, your daddy.
Glennon Doyle:
… from each other. Yeah. To the dog. And it’s just this release valve of intensity to joy or stress. Honestly, our dogs are always peeing, always going in the trash. It’s not all roses.
Abby Wambach:
No, it’s not all roses, but it’s worth it.
Glennon Doyle:
Totally.
Abby Wambach:
Even the peeing and the trash eating and the barking with Hattie, it’s worth it. The amount of times that we look at each other and the dogs are on our bed-
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. We have no boundaries.
Abby Wambach:
… are in our bed. We have no boundaries. And we’re like, I love them so… And our teeth are-
Glennon Doyle:
I want to eat them.
Abby Wambach:
We’re like I love them so much.
Glennon Doyle:
What is that?
Amanda Doyle:
[crosstalk 00:27:07] teeth.Abby Wambach:
What the frick?
Glennon Doyle:
Why do we want to eat them? That’s so weird.
Abby Wambach:
We have a beast in our bed. We have a beast in our bed and we’re happy about it.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s an animal.
Glennon Doyle:
And you should know that we have trained them to sleep with their heads on the pillow between us. They sleep like human beings. It’s a row of Doyle Wambach. It’s Abby, then Hattie, then Honey, then me. And then during the night I move Honey over to the other side of Abby because she snores so loud. And now we have a new animal.
Abby Wambach:
Well, here is where things get a little wild.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re even surprising yourself, Abby?
Abby Wambach:
The absurdity of dogs for us, pets-
Glennon Doyle:
Gateways. They’re a gateway.
Abby Wambach:
… is there a gateway pet. And I’ve always been pro dog, anti everything else, especially rodents, especially snakes and rodents. And I send to all of the rodents and snakes love, but it’s just not for me. It’s just not my jam. Well, Tish, she comes to us recently and she said, you know what? You know what my life is missing? My life is missing a hamster. And she knows us as parents very well. And so she is informing and educating the three of us.
Glennon Doyle:
And she’s also telling us why she needs it. Tish is the one who six years after the divorce will still explain that perhaps she forgot her book report because of the trauma of a broken family.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. She knows. She’s smart.
Glennon Doyle:
So she told us that she was feeling lonely and so she needed a hamster. She played all of our buttons.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. She approaches us and she has what feels like a little bit like of a report, like a school report, like here is how long a hamster lives all. And also-
Glennon Doyle:
Benefits.
Abby Wambach:
… she fibbed on that. She said only one year. And this one lives two. We decide, okay, we’re going to do this.
Glennon Doyle:
No, no, no. First you said absolutely not.
Abby Wambach:
Of course, but-
Glennon Doyle:
And then four days later, we’re at this pet store.
Abby Wambach:
No, we say, absolutely you can do this at Craig’s house.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. Craig and I are texting back and forth negotiating the crap out of this-
Amanda Doyle:
Not it.
Glennon Doyle:
… hamster situation. Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
And so we’ve decided as a family that hamster is going to live at Craig’s house. Well, I don’t know how this happens.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t know either.
Abby Wambach:
Tish decides that she needs the hamster now and the hamster is now having to live in our house.
Amanda Doyle:
Because of the divorce probably.
Glennon Doyle:
Because of the divorce.
Abby Wambach:
So we go to the freaking store, we get this hamster.
Glennon Doyle:
Biscuit, the hamster.
Abby Wambach:
We get all the things.
Glennon Doyle:
The whole damn family goes.
Abby Wambach:
And now the hamster’s living at our house.
Glennon Doyle:
And how do you feel about the hamster, babe?
Abby Wambach:
Okay. So here’s the deal with Biscuit, new rodent, new hamster.
Glennon Doyle:
I call it Beatrix.
Abby Wambach:
We call her Beatrix. I freaking love this thing. When Tish goes and is at Craig’s house, I sit and I watch her. This thing is noc… I didn’t know hamsters were nocturnal. I actually don’t know what the point of her is because-
Glennon Doyle:
No. Nobody knows.
Abby Wambach:
… she’s up during the night and not at all during the day. So there’s like one hour between by the time we’re in bed that she might wake up.
Glennon Doyle:
9 to 10.
Abby Wambach:
9 to 10:00 PM that I just sit there and I’m watching her and Tish does bath bonding time.
Glennon Doyle:
So Tish and the hamster. So what we’re trying to tell you, pod squad-
Abby Wambach:
Watch out for the dogs.
Glennon Doyle:
… is that from 9 to 10… First of all, we used to go to bed at nine. Okay. Now from 9 to 10, I am in my bed reading. And if you need to find Abby, you have to go to Tish’s room, even when Tish is not here, even when she’s at Craig’s, Abby is sitting cross legged in front of a cage that’s on the floor.
Abby Wambach:
Love that thing.
Glennon Doyle:
In the dark.
Abby Wambach:
I just wanted to come out for me.
Glennon Doyle:
And she’s staring, waiting for Biscuit to peek her little biscuit head out. Unless of course, Tish is home. When Tish is home, Abby stares with Tish from 9-9:30 and then Tish brings the hamster into the only bathtub that exists in our home, which is in my bathroom. And Tish and the hamster sit in our bathtub for half an hour. What are they even doing in there?
Abby Wambach:
It’s called bathtime bonding.
Glennon Doyle:
Bonding.
Abby Wambach:
But what’s so fun-
Amanda Doyle:
Does it float?
Abby Wambach:
No water.
Glennon Doyle:
There’s no water on.
Abby Wambach:
Just an enclosed space. So the hamster doesn’t like crawl into the crevice of a room and go away forever. So this a safe place.
Glennon Doyle:
But I do think it’s a perfect example of what pets do to a family because my one sacred safe space, when I get into the bathtub now there’s hamster shit in it.
Amanda Doyle:
Literally?
Abby Wambach:
No, Tish cleans it up.
Glennon Doyle:
No, she doesn’t.
Abby Wambach:
She cleans up, A, and B, here’s what I’ll say about this little hamster. And I think the real reason why I love it. It’s because this child worked really hard to convince us.
Glennon Doyle:
She did.
Abby Wambach:
And I love this child-
Glennon Doyle:
Yes you do.
Abby Wambach:
… so much. I love our children so much that when she comes into our room and talks about the love that she has for this Biscuit, it’s a grand animal.
Glennon Doyle:
She’s our grand hamster.
Abby Wambach:
She’s our grand hamster. And I love it.
Glennon Doyle:
Our first grand animal.
Abby Wambach:
I love this thing as if it’s my own, because it kind of is.
Glennon Doyle:
And because we’ve watched her… Tish, you know how she is. She came into our room each night and talked about how she’s fostering trust between her and the hamster. She would never pick her up because she needed to earn the hamster coming to her. She was trying-
Abby Wambach:
Don’t you go in that room.
Glennon Doyle:
… to accept the hamster for who the hamster was.
Abby Wambach:
Don’t you go in that room, she said.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Don’t you go in that room.
Abby Wambach:
I’m like, gosh. Don’t you go in that room, Abby. I’m like, all right, well. And then of course I got to get in there just to see if-
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. You do sneak in there.
Abby Wambach:
Well, because I think that all animals are going to love me the most.
Glennon Doyle:
You do. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t know. I understand it’s unhealthy.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s so good. It’s so good. All right. We have some questions from the pod squad about their pet.
Glennon Doyle:
Great. Let’s hear some pet cues from the pod squadders.
Leah:
Hi, my name is Leah. I’m calling in because I’m really excited about something. My dog, Stella and I are going to go to our first group class to work on some issues that she has. We’ve been doing a training program for a while now and we’ve done some private lessons, but this is our first group class and I’m really scared and excited about it. I just love Stella so much.
Leah:
She’s such a sweet dog, but she just has a lot of issues. Whenever we go outside, Stella just feels all of the things. She is so affectionate and loving, but she gets so scared and anxious when we go outside, but we’re working through it because I want her to be able to go out into the world with me. And I just wanted to call and tell you about that because she’s on my island and I love her a lot. I love to hear more about your guys’ relationship with Honey and Hattie and any other pets that you’ve had. Thanks. Bye
Glennon Doyle:
Leah is Stella’s emotional support human.
Abby Wambach:
And you know what? You know who Stella reminds me of?
Glennon Doyle:
Who?
Abby Wambach:
My beautiful wife.
Amanda Doyle:
She just feels so much. She’s so lovely. But then she goes out into the world and she’s so nervous and scared. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m glad that Stella’s getting some group therapy. I just wish she would still just be able to go to her private lessons.
Amanda Doyle:
I love that she said that she’s on my island because I know we have received so many messages from people that are saying my animal is the closest thing to me. And I think that that is beautiful. And I feel like there’s a cultural… In the friends episode where we talked about you get a divorce and everyone’s like, oh, I’m so sorry. But then you break up with your best friend and the world is moving right along. I just want to say out loud that there’s so many people for whom their connection to their animals is their deepest, most profound-
Glennon Doyle:
The love story of their life.
Amanda Doyle:
The love story. The love story of their life. That’s right. It’s a real thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Amen.
Amanda Doyle:
And I feel like we belittle it a little bit, but there’s honestly, when you look at the actual research, people should not be belittling it. Dogs actually, and animals, pets that you love, they actually increase your oxytocin. They make you less stressed out. They increase the way that you socialize in the world, that people socialize more in the world with animals than those that don’t, they handle stress better, they have lower blood pressure. When’s the last time a friendship did that for you? I’m just saying. You might want to check.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, if we’re basing all of our health and wellness on physicality, then all those things you just said, scientifically the animals make us make our lives better. But also there’s no spiritual tradition that at the heart of it, doesn’t say, okay, the way is presence.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s it. That’s what everybody’s saying. Love and presence, presence and love. Loving presence. That’s what every spiritual tradition tells us is the answer, and dogs and animals, that’s what they’re forcing us into-
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
… is loving presence.
Abby Wambach:
Huh.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s that William Martin quote, “Do not ask your children to strive for extraordinary lives. Such striving may seem admirable, but it is the way of foolishness. Help them instead to find the wonder and the marvel of an ordinary life. Show them the joy of tasting tomatoes, apples, and pears. Show them how to cry when pets and people die, show them the infinite pleasure in the touch of a hand and make the ordinary come alive for them. The extraordinary will take care of itself.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s what I feel like they do. It’s kind of like when you’re doing meditation, bring your breath back, bring your breath back, bring your breath back. That’s what I feel like Shamus does for me. I’m so busy seeing the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. And him being there is bring your presence back to this moment because I’m licking your face. Bring your presence back to this moment because I need you to pull on this rope. It doesn’t matter all these other things.
Glennon Doyle:
The meditation thing is so interesting because this happens to me all the time. Just recently, meditating upstairs, and Hattie, she thinks she’s a guard dog so she’s sitting by the window and she’s freaking out. She’s freaking out. Okay. So I’m trying to meditate and Hattie is looking out our window and freaking out because she thinks that the person who’s walking by our house is attacking us. So she’s distracting us from this beautiful meditation because she thinks she’s under attack.
Glennon Doyle:
And of course in meditation they say the obstacle in the path is the path. So when my dog interrupts me because she’s freaking out, because she doesn’t think she’s safe in my meditation. I try to think, okay, not like you’re so annoying. You’re messing up meditation. But this is my meditation for the day. How is Hattie interrupting me because she’s scared my meditation and I, to me, the answer is I’m saying to Hattie why are you freaking out? You’re totally safe. We’re in this beautiful moment. I’ve got this. And the God of whoever, all of our understanding the universe is looking at me and saying, why are you always freaking out? We’re in this beautiful moment, you’re safe. You don’t have to guard your house. I’ve got this. You’re safe.
Amanda Doyle:
And why your God is saying to you, I send all of this into your life and you interpret every passerby as a potential-
Glennon Doyle:
Threat.
Amanda Doyle:
… intruder and threat.
Glennon Doyle:
And you’re always barking, Glennon. You are always afraid so you’re always barking, when you could be just laying around in the sun, in this house that is safe.
Abby Wambach:
Wow. I tell you what my meditations go quite different.
Amanda Doyle:
So good.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. Let’s hear from this next caller.
Abby Wambach:
That was good.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you baby.
Speaker 5:
I was listening to your podcast last night as I was driving home from the 24-hour vet emergency for another crazy dog emergency. And it got me home at four in the morning without crashing. So it’s definitely kept me awake and entertained. But my question for you is how do you deal with hard things with pets? We get gifted these incredible animals into our lives that become part of our family and I don’t have kids, so I definitely have the fur babies and you just fall so deeply in love with them.
Speaker 5:
And you also know it’s a short, short time. And so, yeah, I guess I was just curious as to what your relationship is with pets and how you hold on to that connection knowing that it’s shorter than most human connections. What do you do with the grief around all of that? What do you find helpful? So anyway, I love you guys. You’re wonderful. And please keep doing all the beautiful work that you’re doing. Thank you so much. Bye.
Abby Wambach:
I think sissy’s crying. Are you crying over there?
Amanda Doyle:
I’ve never been through that.
Abby Wambach:
She just got Shamus.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That’s the question. That’s the question. I’m thinking about the first experience that we had with animals and death was usually I feel like most parents who are resisting fur animals because they feel like they’re treading too much water. We start with fish. That’s what our family did. We started with fish. We were like-
Amanda Doyle:
That’s the reverse gateway too, because I bought three years of non dog time by having fish.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. Exactly. So it’s a hold off. So we bought fish. We had three little beta fish that were in different little, what are they called? Teeny aquariums. They were in each of the kids’ rooms. This is when we were real heavy Jesus-y. I am not kidding. The fish’s names were Jesus, Mary and Joseph. I did not name them.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh. Are you kidding me?
Glennon Doyle:
No, I haven’t even told you this whole thing. So Amma had Jesus, Tish had Mary, and Chase had Joseph.
Amanda Doyle:
Did Jesus just appear from Mary without Joseph? Was it like and then its like Mary unto you.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
Jesus has given.
Glennon Doyle:
So weird, you guys.
Abby Wambach:
And you had to move him.
Glennon Doyle:
Unexplainable. And Mary the fish was like, dude, I swear to God, I did not have fish sex.
Abby Wambach:
I did not have fish sex.
Glennon Doyle:
Jesus.
Amanda Doyle:
Side eyeing Mary for the first couple days.
Glennon Doyle:
Joseph the fish was like I freaking knew it.
Abby Wambach:
This is my favorite thing that has ever happened on our podcast right here.
Glennon Doyle:
Anyway.
Abby Wambach:
Just happened.
Glennon Doyle:
We’ve got Jesus, Mary, Joseph was going fine for a little while. And my friends had their kids over they were all running around upstairs in the kids’ bedrooms, all the little ones, and I hear screaming from upstairs and Emma, her little voice is screaming, mom, Jesus is dead. Jesus is dead. Okay. Over and over again. So we run upstairs and poor little Peyton, Emma’s friend has poured the whole fish food into the aquarium. And so Jesus has indeed gorged Jesus herself so much that Jesus is in fact dead and floating. And for sure, Amma’s waiting for it to resurrect.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
For sure.
Amanda Doyle:
Let’s see if his promise is real.
Glennon Doyle:
For sure. Amma’s like this story is not yet over.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s the Friday. It’s Friday.
Glennon Doyle:
First the pain, then the waiting, then the rising.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God.
Glennon Doyle:
But in fact, Jesus, the fish was not going to rise. And so this was the first real conversation that we had to have as a family and-
Abby Wambach:
About religion.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, that was tricky, but really just talking about what is the point? I remember saying Chase, what is the point? They just die. We love them. And then they die. And it was speaking to this larger point of what is the point of loving at all? And I really remember the five of us just coming to the idea of we do not love because it lasts forever because if we did that, we would all be fools. We would all be wrong. We would all be wasting our, our time because it will never in fact last forever. But we love because the process of loving something changes us.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Because the process, the doing of it, the loving and being loved creates this growth in us that leaves us different and better and wholer and more beautiful when it ends after it ends.
Abby Wambach:
So maybe that love doesn’t even really ever end. I still love the dog that I had from years and years ago.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, you’re right. It doesn’t. You’re right. It doesn’t end. The relationship doesn’t fully end.
Amanda Doyle:
Everything we love will transform in some way or another over the lifespan, but it’s so compressed with our little animals that again, with the presence, it’s present in your head the whole time.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah
Amanda Doyle:
You know-
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
I think that-
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, you know.
Abby Wambach:
… it’s like death and training and we get to practice hopefully throughout the whole of our life with these pets to start learning about death and understanding what the relationship we personally have with it so that we can prep for the death of our parents or our loved ones. I just think-
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, it is.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t know if there’s a more beautiful lesson you can teach. And it’s just so interesting to me that for us, these dogs and this hamster are going to help us and teach our kids.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. Because I don’t know how to do it. I certainly don’t know what’s right and wrong, but I know what feels tempting to me when an animal is lost. What’s tempting to me is what’s attempting to me with everything that my kids go through, it’s painful, which is it’s okay. And look an eagle and here’s a new one and don’t feel any of it and moving on.
Glennon Doyle:
All of these things we do where we’re replacing the animal really fast, or we’re distracting them, or we’re telling them that it went to live on a farm somewhere or we’re lying and lying and lying so that they don’t feel the loss of loss. And for me, it’s an opportunity to resist that and to trust to show them ritual, to like give a container to grief, to give a vehicle to it. Okay. Yeah. Now we sit sadly and we say we don’t know. We don’t necessarily if we don’t believe it make up a bunch of stories about what is happening, we don’t know. And then we sit and we don’t know together, and we feel sad together. And then we create some sort of ritual to help us move through our grief.
Amanda Doyle:
And I think the same, it is practice for human loss, but it also is its own real loss. That is a very real loss. And I didn’t grow up with dogs, but John was one of five kids and it’s so interesting how when that family gets together, I feel like a lot of the portion of the conversation revolve… They’re all different ages, they span this gap, but they have the glue… Reminds me of untamed Elmers. It’s like the glue that connects their experiences or these various times where there were different ages and different stages is what dog was at the center of their family during any time period?
Amanda Doyle:
And they’d get together and they’d talk about those times with the dog. And this is 40 years later. The dog we had then, then the dog we had then, and silly, they actually tell stories all the time about it. So I feel like it’s really acknowledging the glue that is these animals in our families and how that continuity can still be alive years later is really special.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s like the center. We think of pet says like the… I’m thinking of a wheel right now when you’re talking. And I’m thinking of how we think of pets as they’re on the outside with us, but maybe the pet is the center. The dog is the center because everybody gets to have their own separate relationship with the dog too. And every kid gets kind of what they need. A kid who needs to play and be engaged. I remember the cats… A sensitive kid who feels so much at school and can’t connect with people at school, but then comes home to their safe place with the dog. It’s like the dog turns out kind of to be the center of the wheel.
Amanda Doyle:
Because it’s the only part of the wheel that is consistently it’s essential nature. When I get with my son, I love him so much, but I bring so much fear and anxiety about his future and what’s going on here and what’s going on there, that there is inevitably some of my armor pushing his armor at all times, as sad as it makes me feel. Same with my husband, but the dog is the only one in the family who is strictly it’s essential nature. So when that’s the case, people can come and get what they need and have this genuine connection.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. All right. Let’s hear from Kelsey.
Kelsey:
Hi guys. My Kelsey, I am a nurse. And my first year I worked in a pediatric ICU that was emotionally traumatizing, physically traumatizing, and threatened the eating disorder recovery I’d worked so hard to maintain, and it took everything in me to quit job. It’s the first time I did something, despite knowing that everybody would look at me differently and possibly think I failed. So that is the best decision I think I’ve made in a very long time. I love my job now. I’m getting my master’s in psychiatric nursing and I’ll be a psych NP in a couple years, but I just wanted to ask you guys, do you have pets? And if you do, have they changed your mental health at all? I just adopted kittens. And it’s been the most mentally well I’ve in a long time. Love you guys.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm. We love you too, Kelsey. First of all, this is such an example of the bravest thing. The bravest thing is sometimes doing the thing that everyone else will think-
Abby Wambach:
Is a failure.
Glennon Doyle:
… was weak, was wimpy. That is some brave stuff, Kelsey, and then you can hear the joy and the freedom in her voice after that decision. It’s so awesome. Good for you. Yeah. I think that my dogs are I would say for sure Lexapro and Honey and Hattie are the three most consistent helpers of my mental health. A hundred percent. And I think-
Abby Wambach:
Also your wife.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, sorry. Yes. Also you. It’s interesting that Kelsey has an eating disorder recovery story, because I think one of the things that’s scary about people is that people are all conditioned. People all have their own conditioning, their social gender, all of it, beauty conditioning. And so when you are recovering from something that has so much to do with the way you view yourself and the way the world treats you based on how you look, your outer shell, it’s not fake that you’re always dealing with other people’s shit.
Glennon Doyle:
You are always dealing with other people’s shit. People react to you in certain ways based on how you appear in the world. And when you are someone who is recovering from an eating disorder, that stuff is not only triggering, but it’s obvious. It’s way more obvious than it is for other people. It’s like seeing the matrix all the time. So you can see how people react better to you when you look a certain way or not as well when you look a certain way, you’re worth more because you look the way that the world has told you to whatever it is.
Glennon Doyle:
We see it all and feel it all. And dogs are the only beings or animals who don’t. Dogs are not socially conditioned. To me that’s why my dogs feel like such an incredibly safe place for me, because they have not been affected by the world in ways that make them treat me in certain ways that makes me feel unsafe. So yes, Kelsey. And also people who have anxiety or conditions that make us overthink everything and get lost in our minds, dogs are the immediate fix for that or cats because they bring us back to like, okay, I just need to walk and need to eat and I need to play and I need to sleep. And then that reminds you, oh yeah, so really what I need to do is I just need to sleep. I need to eat. I need to play. That’s it. And I probably need to drink more water. They bring you back to the immediate small thinking that big thinking screws you with. Okay. Let’s hear from our pod squadder of the week.
Leah:
Hello. My name is Leah. So I know Alice has the sea turtles and Tish has polar bears. Apparently my four year old son has all the animals in captivity. I recently brought him to the zoo against my better judgment to try and do this progressive parenting thing where I let him make his own choices rather than just pushing all of my opinions on him which I still think that some of them are valid, but I still want to give him the space in the room to find his way. Blah, whatever.
Leah:
Well, I’m a single parent. And he saw all the animals, particularly the lions and the tigers. And all he could ask very mildly was where are their mommies? And I’m going to bust out their cages. I’m going to bash through those cages. Where are their mommies? To which every other child looked at them, looked at their parents and said, where are their mommies? And so I created an uprising at the National Zoo where many, many toddlers were both confused, sad, mad, crying about where all the animals’ mommies are. So we are doing our part to untame ourselves as well as apparently untame all the animals in captivity. Thank you for everything you do.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, the uprising at the zoo. Hell yes to that little troublemaker. Okay. So first of all, I’m obsessed with because I was trying to do this progressive parenting thing where I let him make his own choices, yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah. First of all, yes, to blah, blah, blah. Okay. I hear you. I feel you on a molecular level with the blah, blah, blah. I also try to do the blah, blah, blah. And it feels very blah, blah, blah, to me.
Glennon Doyle:
But I would like to say to this parent, your blah, blah, blah, trying to allow your kid to have their own vision and their own voice and their own instinct and trust it is effing working because you thought it was just that you’re trying to take them to the zoo, even though you don’t believe in zoos, but here they are showing up at the zoo and saying F this, raising their little troublemaker hand, asking the tough questions, asking the tough questions.
Amanda Doyle:
Your little one is looking at the zoo saying, I thought it would be beautiful than this.
Glennon Doyle:
I can imagine a truer and more beautiful version of this. And so that little troublemaker says the thing, excuse me, I’m having feelings. And then all the other toddlers are like hell yes. I too was having those feelings. F this system. And we’re all going to band together and turn it over. So the zoo becomes liberated. Yes to you. Yes to all of you people that are actually trying the yada yada, the blah, blah, blah. It’s effing working, y’all. Keep it up. We love you so much. Ask the hard questions this week, raise your little toddler hand.
Abby Wambach:
Do the blah, blah blahs.
Amanda Doyle:
Find the moments of ordinary and let the extraordinary take care of itself with your tiny little furry or scaled or feathered friends.
Glennon Doyle:
Aw, we love you. We’ll see you next week. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you did, don’t worry about it, it’s fine.