Double Date with Megan Rapinoe & Sue Bird!
February 22, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Hello. Hello. Hello. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we are inviting you to a double date.
Abby Wambach:
It’s so exciting.
Glennon Doyle:
It is exciting.
Abby Wambach:
I feel nervous and excited a little bit and for the past few minutes, we’ve been talking about our own personal rules for our double date. Like you would imagine you and your partner driving to this said double date, and you’re talking about what’s going to happen? What do you want to talk about?
Glennon Doyle:
What do you want to talk about? Yeah. So our first double date and we can do our things.
Abby Wambach:
Who is it?
Glennon Doyle:
Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird.
Abby Wambach:
What? I mean legends.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. All right. Let’s do this. Okay. Megan and Sue.
Abby Wambach:
Here we are.
Glennon Doyle:
And I just want to explain to you what the hell we’re doing here. Okay. Abby and I decided a while back that we were going to try to have friends. Okay.
Megan Rapinoe:
Like new friends?
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Megan Rapinoe:
Oh, okay. Just existing friends that-
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Megan Rapinoe:
… reboot.
Glennon Doyle:
We were just going to actually talk to the people that we call our friends.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
But we don’t want to go anywhere or really do anything about it, so what we decided was that we were going to have double dates on the podcast. So then we made a list of all of the people that we wanted to have a double date with, and it kept just saying Megan and Sue.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So here we are.
Megan Rapinoe:
[cross talk 00:01:46]. Thank you.Sue Bird:
I love a 9:00 a.m. A 9:00 a.m. double date, I’m all in.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That’s actually typical for us. Isn’t it?
Abby Wambach:
Well, in the sober world, when you don’t drink at night, you don’t go get dinner and drinks if you’re not drinking.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Abby Wambach:
So we do coffee.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Megan Rapinoe:
Coffee.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Because it gets very arbitrary. It’s like the Good Will Hunting. It’s like, “Do you want to get together and have some caramels?”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like what the hell else do you do?
Abby Wambach:
So what are you guys doing? What in the hell are you doing? Where are you right now? Are you in Seattle?
Sue Bird:
Yeah. We’re in Seattle.
Megan Rapinoe:
We’re in Seattle. We’re both, Abby I feel like you know this, stress and anxiety and life-questioning feeling as well as we do. We’re in our January. It’s just, every year it comes, the anxiety comes, all of the questions about my life come, and it’s like I know what’s happening, it still just happens. But we’re working out and doing the things, and [crosstalk 00:02:51].
Glennon Doyle:
What are the questions? Because I feel this way. I want you to understand that this is not a Sporty Spice thing. I think you’re alluding to that because you just only called out Abby. But January isn’t just a pit of existential dread all the time.
Sue Bird:
For them. It’s in the form of a beep test. That’s where their fitness test.
Abby Wambach:
The beep test. Come on.
Sue Bird:
Yeah. I don’t have that experience. Thank God we don’t do that fitness testing stuff.
Megan Rapinoe:
It’s just like the feeling of, you can’t wait to get to your vacation at the end of your season. It’s all you think about all year long, you can’t wait. Of course you take your seven days off, your really long break, seven days. And then you have to get going again. Somehow in seven days, you forgot how to do everything and everything hurts, and everything’s like 20,000 times harder than it ever was before. And you’re like, “Should we just hang it up? Should I be done? Why is it so hard? Is everyone else doing it this hard? No, it looks easy for them.” And it’s just so dumb to get ready for the sports.
Glennon Doyle:
Is it like the Sunday scaries, but like times of millions?
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Is it like on Sunday when everything feels terrifying and you forgot how to be out in the world and do whatever it is you do and you don’t think you’ll ever figure it out again. Is it like that, but harder?
Abby Wambach:
Well, I think that Megan and I were very similar in this way that when it was off season, we were off. We took those seven and might I say maybe 14, we might have extended those days off so that-
Glennon Doyle:
We needed that.
Abby Wambach:
… coming back into shape is just miserable. And also when you get older, it’s harder. It’s just physiologically more difficult. Some people just stay in shape during that time, but I just never did. But how is your body holding up Megan? Are you feeling healthy at least?
Megan Rapinoe:
I am feeling good. Yeah. I had a little longer break actually this time than I normally do, obviously I didn’t go to the camp in Australia. So I feel like I was really able to phase out like, okay, you’re doing a little bit of rehab in the beginning and now we’re doing strength. And now I’m back on the field, getting ready for preseason. So I actually feel pretty good, like knock on wood and I’ve been able to slow roll it, which has been nice and I haven’t felt a ton of pressure. There’s always a little bit of like, “I’m not going into this camp or whatever,” but it’s actually been nice to not have that pressure. And I just get to roll into my club preseason, which will be really nice. So I feel pretty good.
Glennon Doyle:
So we were just talking to a good friend, Sarah Paulson, and she was talking about how she’s just gotten to this point in her life where she’s finally figured out that she knows how to do what she does. It’s not just one long fluke, it’s not like she’s tricking the world every time she shows up. She actually tells herself, “Wait, you know how to act, you can do this. It’s not luck.” Do you guys feel like you can do sports yet or do you still feel like you’re just tricking the world every time? And that when you get a trophy or whatever you get, you’re like, “Oh, thank God I tricked them again.”
Megan Rapinoe:
Got them. I think it’s a dance. I think you’re doing a dance. I think there are days when you feel that way and then there are days when you’re like, “Man, I hope I score today.” I think, like Abby said, where she talked about getting older. What happens when you get older is you definitely start to realize what you’re good at. When you’re out there playing, you start to stick to what you’re good at. But what happens is you’re getting older, you’re realizing you’re really good at it, right? You’ve proven it. And then your body starts to go a little bit. So then it’s like this shift.
Glennon Doyle:
God.
Megan Rapinoe:
So like, “Well, is my body going to let me do it? I know I can do it now, but is my body going to let me do it?” And then all of a sudden, for me anyway, the focus shifts to that, where I’m in my workouts. The minute I feel any pain, I’m like, “Oh, this could be it.” And the rest of my week is spent in retirement. And then I show up the next week and it feels pretty good. And I’m like, “All right, I can play forever.” So it’s just this constant like dance.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s horse shit though.
Sue Bird:
It’s so true.
Glennon Doyle:
That the second you figure out how to do it, you’re… That reminds me of, I think I’m in perimenopause right now. That reminds me of that. It’s like, “Okay, I’m crushing it. I’m a badass.” I am like, “I don’t give a shit what anyone thinks about me. I am out there doing my thing,” and it’s like, “Oh, but I’m going to have hot flashes every four minutes. What the fuck?”
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah, But your body’s going to remind you and knock you down nine pegs every time you start to get comfortable. I feel like at this stage, in both of our careers, if all things were equal physically, we’d be busting these kids’ asses. It’s not it, it’s like I know what to do and exactly how to do it and where my advantages are and all that. It’s just about bringing this body along to get it to the point where it can halfway do what my mind is asking.
Abby Wambach:
Well, and as pro athletes, you all never are actually, especially as we get older, you’re never at a 100%. So you’re always dealing with something. And that just plays a massive role into the confidence that you could take as an athlete on the pitch or on the court. So I don’t know, I just think it’s so fucking amazing that you all are still playing. I mean, Sue, how old are you right now?
Sue Bird:
41.
Abby Wambach:
Fuck. That’s how old I am.
Sue Bird:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
You couldn’t play me.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re such a slacker. I can’t understand what you’re saying right now because I haven’t listened, because I keep going back to the fact that Megan Rapinoe just called a bunch of people on the team, the kids.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah, [inaudible 00:08:32].
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like a great grandmother right now.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yes, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
If Megan is referring to… Wow, so you’re like the old person now?
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Abby Wambach:
Are you the oldest on the team now that Carli’s gone?
Glennon Doyle:
And Becky.
Abby Wambach:
Becky I think is like a month older, but no [inaudible 00:08:53].
Glennon Doyle:
And Sue, you are also?
Sue Bird:
Oh yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Are you an oldie?
Sue Bird:
I’ve been the oldest for like five years legitimately.
Abby Wambach:
She just agreed to play for another year which is amazing and wild to me. I mean, have you treated your body perfectly forever?
Sue Bird:
No, no, no, no.
Abby Wambach:
How are you still moving?
Sue Bird:
I’m like good genetics.
Abby Wambach:
No, 41. I’m 41.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Sue Bird:
No, but I didn’t do this forever, but I switched. I switched my workout regimen. I hired somebody, all this stuff probably six years ago now. And I was plateauing and it wasn’t even that I took off, it was just oh, it didn’t do the decline. It just stayed and then I was able to… Like you guys talked about, when you get older, you are just smarter, you’re more experienced than these players. So you can use that as long as your body’s there. So I just found a way to keep my body hovering. Like I always say, people talk about father time, I’m like, “I’m just trying to tie him. I’m not trying to win.”
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Sue Bird:
“I’m not trying to win. I just need to tie.”
Glennon Doyle:
Just keep up. You guys should become, well, you already are, but if you’re a writer, you don’t have to give a shit about your body. I don’t even have to make it up the stairs to have a win.
Sue Bird:
I’ll be at the bottom of the stairs writing.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. That’s right. So how did you guys meet?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Go ahead.
Megan Rapinoe:
Oh gosh. The quick version is Abby, you know the Olympic NBC media day, it’s usually in L.A-
Abby Wambach:
The all day.
Megan Rapinoe:
The all day, you go from uniform to this outfit-
Sue Bird:
Casual Saturday date night.
Megan Rapinoe:
Those are the outfits you have to bring. They tell you [cross talk 00:10:33].
Glennon Doyle:
The bullshit [inaudible 00:10:33].
Megan Rapinoe:
They bring a date night, Saturday night, a casual Sunday night and then a workout outfit. And then you have your proper uniform and you’re going to change these outfits constantly.
Abby Wambach:
This is NBC pre-Olympics so that NBC can get footage to use while the Olympics are playing.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Continue.
Megan Rapinoe:
Which you maybe see like 10 seconds of it ever.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. It’s like Entertainment Tonight. This sports, some news, go into this social thing, all of these different media stakeholders are in the same thing.
Abby Wambach:
So this was 2000 and what? 16?
Sue Bird:
Yeah. 16.
Megan Rapinoe:
So Dan Levy, obviously my agent, Abby, you know Dan and Glen very well. Yeah. So in passing, I also was not single at the time. I was actually engaged at the time. So this was just a funny interaction. Dan basically introduced me. And we had been in Seattle for whatever, a number of years. I obviously knew who she was, but I’d gone to a couple WNBA games, but didn’t know each other. So Dan was like, “Oh my gosh, you guys should know each other.” And you know what I’m saying, she had her uniform on, but then she had the hair down and I’m sure more makeup than you wanted.
Sue Bird:
Tragic, tragic.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. And just, because I’m so cool and so smooth with everything, I just made some dumb joke that I immediately walked past her and rolled my eyes. And I was like, “I can’t fucking believe you just did that.” But I walked, we got introduced. And it was one of those things, when it’s quick and it’s just one-
Sue Bird:
It’s very quick.
Megan Rapinoe:
… of these, it’s just a weird thing. And I was like, “Oh, you’re ready for your game?”
Sue Bird:
And just I was like, “Yeah.”
Megan Rapinoe:
Okay. So there’s that. So we can’t even be friends now because she’s a loser.
Glennon Doyle:
So she’s dead to me.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah, like obviously we can’t-
Sue Bird:
And I was like, “Oh, I heard she was cool.”
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. Everything that you’ve heard is a total lie. Anyway, so that was our first-
Sue Bird:
That was like the proper first meeting.
Megan Rapinoe:
Little interaction. Yeah. And then what was the next? Basically at the Olympics.
Sue Bird:
At the Olympics.
Megan Rapinoe:
We famously bonked out in a massive way. I was coming back from my ACL. So the whole Olympics for us was really terrible, but we got out so early and we never actually even made it to Rio. So I was like, “Oh, I’m going to Rio.” There was like five or six of us. We went to a few games. You were staying on a cruise ship. So it was like-
Sue Bird:
Different Olympic experiences.
Abby Wambach:
Right.
Sue Bird:
Different budgets.
Abby Wambach:
Different Olympic experiences.
Megan Rapinoe:
Different budgets, different budgets.
Sue Bird:
Wildly different.
Megan Rapinoe:
Wildly different.
Megan Rapinoe:
I mean, she said, what is it called? Manaus?
Sue Bird:
Manaus.
Megan Rapinoe:
That then appeared on 90 day fiance.
Abby Wambach
The hotel?
Megan Rapinoe:
The hotel did. And I was like, “Oh.” I started watching that one season. I don’t regret it. I don’t regret it. It’s not something I’m proud of, but I don’t regret it. And I was like, “Oh, they’re in this like crazy Brazil.” She’s like, “That’s where we stayed.”
Megan Rapinoe:
That’s where we stayed. “That’s where we stayed.” I was like, “What?”
Sue Bird:
My clothes are still damp, it was awful.
Megan Rapinoe:
Different experiences.
Glennon Doyle:
And just real quick, can you explain to us, why?
Sue Bird:
So it’s actually very simple, USA Basketball, the umbrella is both men’s and women’s, there’s a lot of, how do I explain this? The NBA is very much involved in our USA basketball experience. It’s all one big umbrella, actually. The NBA owns the USA Basketball rights and there’s a lot of detail to it. But with that, there’s a certain standard in which the men are treated and we get treated the same, as we should, as we deserve.
Abby Wambach:
Go fucking figure.
Sue Bird:
That’s basically what happens. Yeah. So they charter, we charter, they actually cannot stay in the village. They’re just entirely too famous. The times we do go in there with them, it’s wild.
Abby Wambach:
Nightmare.
Sue Bird:
So we always have to get something outside of the village. We, unlike you guys, we play the whole time, we stay in the city, whatever city it is, the whole time and our traveling party’s huge. We can bring guests.
Glennon Doyle:
Cool.
Sue Bird:
So they get us a hotel, or in this case they couldn’t find a hotel, logistically, that made sense, so we stayed on a cruise ship. It was like Below Deck vibes.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Very cool.
Megan Rapinoe:
It’s a much more enjoyable, relaxed-
Sue Bird:
You’re not grinding.
Megan Rapinoe:
… environment. Where we’re like, “You have one hour a day of family time.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Sue Bird:
I’m like, “That’s a jail.”
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. It’s like, okay, like visitation. Everyone being miserable, that’s going to help our performance on the field. You guys just have more. But it’s weird. It’s like they’re not on contract like we are-
Sue Bird:
No, it’s a totally-
Megan Rapinoe:
haven’t normally been, it’s like [cross talk 00:15:10]
Glennon Doyle:
Do you get paid more? Right. So it doesn’t translate to actual paychecks?
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. They don’t even [cross talk 00:15:18]
Sue Bird:
It’s like we get bonuses for winning.
Glennon Doyle:
No, but I mean in the WNBA.
Abby Wambach:
So we’re talking two separate things. USA Basketball is different than the WNBA.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Sue Bird:
So like for them, and I’m sure you hear, and by the way, I’m like you Glennon, I had to learn all their lives, how it went. Their national team is the priority. It’s where the money is. It’s where their contracts are. For us it’s the WNBA and overseas. And then national team is second. And for them, it’s like national teams first.
Glennon Doyle:
Got it.
Sue Bird:
… and [inaudible 00:15:47] second, it’s a flipped.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Got it. Okay, cool. So you’re in the Olympics, Megan’s out of the Olympics, but visiting the Olympics.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yes.
Sue Bird:
Yeah, basically.
Glennon Doyle:
Sue was on Below Deck.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
And so then how does this happen?
Megan Rapinoe:
So I had been going to-
Glennon Doyle:
You’ve [inaudible 00:16:06].
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah, I had been going to a couple of games. Obviously, we didn’t know each other, but we’re in the exact same world in life. We know the same people, the agents, all the sort of things.
Sue Bird:
You’re just going to skip the DM part?
Megan Rapinoe:
Oh yeah. Well, I did-
Sue Bird:
It actually sounds way more scandalous than it was.
Megan Rapinoe:
So obviously the summer of 16, it was from a social justice perspective, I mean, we’d just come off like 14 Ferguson, Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, going into 50, I feel like I was educating myself more. The WNBA obviously is always the leader in the forefront of social justice, work and protests and all of that. So summer of 16, the players from Minnesota had refused to speak to the media, wore the black shirts, and going into the Olympics, I slid into Sue’s DMS. I do love the DMS and like-
Sue Bird:
She does, she does.
Megan Rapinoe:
I just-
Sue Bird:
She gets-
Megan Rapinoe:
The blue check gets you far.
Sue Bird:
Yeah. No.
Megan Rapinoe:
I’m like, “Hi.”
Sue Bird:
That’s how you met Carla, her stylist.
Megan Rapinoe:
The guy who’s doing our apartment right now.
Sue Bird:
[inaudible 00:17:15] designing in New York.Megan Rapinoe:
I just slide into everyone DMs and I’m like, “Hi, like you didn’t ask for me, but here I am.” Anyway. So I had hit her, “Hey, just amazing.”
Sue Bird:
About social justice.
Megan Rapinoe:
… what you guys are doing, if there’s any way for our teams to partner or whatever, this was pre kneeling that happened after we got back from the Olympics, just is there any way to connect or help amplify whatever that, it didn’t really lead anywhere but we were talking.
Sue Bird:
If I had to like round this out-
Megan Rapinoe:
It was platonic.
Sue Bird:
Yeah. There’s all these connecting points, “We met here and oh, we saw each other at the USA House, which is this place at the Olympics, there’s always a USA House where every athlete can go and they have food and different kind of entertainment things, whatever they do there. “I saw you there and then she lost. So then she was coming to my games.” At that point we had connected on the DM and it was like. “Oh, good to see you, blah, blah, blah,” that kind of thing. And then they came to our after party. So we had one-
Megan Rapinoe:
My fiance was there at the time. Sarah was there.
Sue Bird:
Sarah was there.
Megan Rapinoe:
So it was like-
Sue Bird:
This is really totally platonic at that time.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So you DM’d Sue about social justice before the kneeling, before your kneeling.
Sue Bird:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So would you say that, because I secretly believe that the WNBA is in charge of the world.
Sue Bird:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
I really do.
Sue Bird:
Well, it certainly should be.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Holy shit. So would you say that influenced you?
Megan Rapinoe:
Oh yeah. Good question. The WNBA?
Glennon Doyle:
The WNBA influenced you-
Sue Bird:
In terms of your kneeling.
Glennon Doyle:
… and the way that you decided to take on the kneeling. Do you think there’s any way that was influential to you?
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah, definitely. Because I think that they were the first ones doing anything publicly protesting as an athlete during that time. They were talking before Colin was talking, they had already done the protest in that summer and in their season. And it wasn’t just with the Minnesota team. It then went league wide. You guys wore black t-shirts and refused to speak to the media about… I mean, if you remember that summer, there was like five really high profile murders of black men. And there was the shooting of the police officers. I think it was in Dallas.
Glennon Doyle:
Dallas.
Megan Rapinoe:
It was a very-
Glennon Doyle:
It was Dallas
Megan Rapinoe:
… violent and tragic summer leading into Colin kneeling, which was September or something. So I think I was already opening my eyes to what was happening and going through, like I said, like Trayvon Martin and then the protest in Ferguson and Michael Brown, and that obviously extended really far, the formation of Black Lives Matter. I was just like learning about it. I don’t think I was really thinking about it all that much before then, and then you guys. And it was just much more, I feel like that summer, every time you turned around the articles or in The Atlantic or The New York Times or Sports Illustrate, it was all just in the zeitgeist of the moment. So yeah, you guys were the first ones to really speak out.
Megan Rapinoe:
And I think even in my implicit bias, and I think back then, I would say Colin was probably a bigger influence because obviously when he spoke out, he got so much more media attention, it’s the NFL, but really they were doing the exact same things in the best way that they could or in the most impactful way that they could prior to Colin even kneeling for the first time.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. So amazing. And Sue, that was mostly black women led, right? Is that the way that it-
Sue Bird:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, yeah.
Sue Bird:
Absolutely yeah. Minnesota Lynx is really the team. And you would say Maya Moore, Seimone Augustus, Rebekkah Brunson on that team, Lindsey Whalen, those four I can picture the image. There’s a picture of them standing at a press conference, they had made shirts. I forget the man’s name who died in Minnesota, who was murdered, Castile maybe.
Glennon Doyle:
Philando.
Megan Rapinoe:
Philando.
Sue Bird:
Yes. And that was the instigator for them. Because this happened in our state. And when they did that, the security guards who are generally like off duty police officers, they walked out. And then the rest of our league was like, “Wait a minute. We need to support this, be a part of this, make it bigger.” And that’s actually the first time we really started to learn the power of the collective. Yes, it was big when Minnesota did it because then I think New York Liberty followed, I think maybe Phoenix Mercury followed then the whole league followed and it was like, “Oh, when we’re all doing this, then it’s a big boom versus just one team here, one team there.” So that was actually, in terms of our journey as a league, that was the starting point of realizing the collective power.
Glennon Doyle:
And the rest of us don’t even understand, I don’t think consciously the power of what you all do first because I remember seeing the whole Loeffler situation, the Kelly Loeffler thing.
Abby Wambach:
This is the 2020 election?
Glennon Doyle:
Right. That terrible woman-
Abby Wambach:
Or the 2018.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. And then… I don’t know, I don’t know number-
Sue Bird:
No, this is 2020.
Abby Wambach:
2020.
Glennon Doyle:
2020.
Sue Bird:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Sue Bird:
She was already a senator.
Glennon Doyle:
[inaudible 00:22:31] the vote Warnock t-shirts and I remember being like, “Who’s that?” So how weird is that that a year later we were all like, “This was my idea,” but that team was the first. And that was so brave and amazing. Like wasn’t that the owner? Loeffler was the owner of the team?Sue Bird:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
And these women all walked out with the vote Warnock t-shirts on, so bad ass.
Abby Wambach:
Of the players of the Atlanta Dream, Dream, right?
Sue Bird:
Yeah. The Atlanta Dream, the whole league did it, our entire league. And that was the beauty of the bubble. Obviously we’re in a bubble because shit’s crazy, COVID, George Floyd, there’s so much happening but the beauty of the bubble was we were all together. And you know how it is, I mean, how hard is it to get on a Zoom with two other people, finding time, it’s impossible. So for 144 women to be in one place at the same time, you could just strategize because we’re like, “I know you’re not doing shit. Get on this thing. Come meet me.”
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. You guys were really the snap or the whatever firecracker, obviously, shout out to Stacy Abrahams and Fair Fight and the activists on the ground.
Sue Bird:
Well, they were setting the ground work but-
Megan Rapinoe:
That was like speed dial.
Megan Rapinoe:
… it did feel like the moment where it became more of a national thing or more thing that the casual person was thinking about, and then you guys saved the Republic by getting us two more senators at least, even though we haven’t really done enough with the advantage that we don’t have, anyways, we don’t need to get into that.
Glennon Doyle:
And then you think about how much attention and credit women’s soccer gets for things.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so fascinating. And well, Megan and Sue, why would you say that women’s soccer tends to be more celebrated in this country than the WNBA is?
Megan Rapinoe:
Well, and I mean really just very bluntly, in our country that is white supremacist founded heteronormative, cisgendered, patriarchal, the straight assumed generally white cisgendered women. Of course, it’s like, “We’re cute and white.” We talk about this all the time. It’s like we’re cute and white and more palatable and we get to represent America with the playing for the US as our primary thing. I mean, it’s like I just can’t get to any other conclusion other than the WNBA is tall and black and everyone thinks everyone’s gay and think about the society that we live in. And they’re always compared to-
Glennon Doyle:
The counterparts.
Megan Rapinoe:
… the counterparts, which is the NBA. And I think people in America have a much better knowledge of basketball than soccer traditionally. And so, I mean, even when people say, “Oh, you guys are so much better than the men.” I’m like, “Yeah, it’s really not the goal first of all.” And it just leaves out so much nuance where I think every LA fitness, YMCA basketball guy, thinks that he could be the best player in the WNBA and he just can’t. So I think it’s really simple. I think that’s why.
Glennon Doyle:
Yep. I think so too, from my massive sports background. So you had all these meetings and run ins, Sue, when did you know, “Oh shit. I’m in love with Megan.”
Abby Wambach:
Or I like Megan even.
Glennon Doyle:
No, I want to know-
Abby Wambach:
We’re going to get there. We’re on a timeline.
Glennon Doyle:
I mean, obviously she liked Megan when she was so nerdy and tried to be cool at the Olympic thing, right? But when were you like, “Uh-oh,” and by the way I want everyone to know, who’s listening, that they just had like a little side bar.
Sue Bird:
We had a [cross talk 00:26:39].
Megan Rapinoe:
We had a sidebar.
Sue Bird:
Which is what we always do [inaudible 00:26:41].
Megan Rapinoe:
No, it’s just more like [cross-talk 00:26:41]
Glennon Doyle:
Are we going to share that?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Megan Rapinoe:
I think the one part that’s always just a little, like I was with someone, so I never want to disrespect that person. And-
Abby Wambach:
Of course.
Megan Rapinoe:
… I think-
Glennon Doyle:
We have the same scenario, so-
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. It’s like there was emotional overlap, which is overlap and that’s what it is, and I wish it didn’t happen that way, but it did. So that’s right, preface with that.
Sue Bird:
So what we were side chatting about was, so this is one of those experiences where I feel like a lot of people have this experience. Okay. Had Megan and I never ended up together, I never would’ve even remembered some of these little moments. They just would’ve been these little bloops in your mind that come and go. And it just never would’ve been a big, huge factor, but because we did, we can look back on it and be like, “Oh, actually.” So one of them is, at that Olympics… Oh yeah. So she was at the after party, we’re all having fun and she was standing over and I was bringing her a drink and making sure she was all set, that kind of a thing, just being a good host, you were just chilling. It was me and Sarah at the time. And then I think Jess and Mary were around-
Megan Rapinoe:
My sister was there.
Sue Bird:
We didn’t really know anyone. So we were just posted up at this tall table, just standing and chilling and listening-
Megan Rapinoe:
Being a good host.
Sue Bird:
… just being like, “I don’t know what we’re doing here, but we’re here, we got on the boat,” and it took us three days because you had to get your passport. And it was a whole scene. So we’re like-
Megan Rapinoe:
Top security.
Sue Bird:
… here. Yeah. Top security. So, yeah. So I kept checking in on them, I guess, to be like, “Hey blah, blah, blah.” And at one point, one of my close friends is Diana Taurasi. We obviously know each other very well. So I had just left the table for probably the fifth time or something, walked away and she comes out to me and she goes, “And get the fuck away from that table.” And I was like, “What?” She was like, “I know what’s happening. Get away from that table.”
Megan Rapinoe:
You two know each other way too well.
Sue Bird:
Yeah. And I was like, “Shut up, whatever, whatever.” So again, we never end up together. That wouldn’t even be, I mean, I guess I would remember it because it funny, but it just was whatever. But now looking back, I clearly was caring for her this way.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yes.
Sue Bird:
I was wanting to be near, but not in a disrespectful way. That’s I guess what I’m getting at.
Megan Rapinoe:
No, you weren’t prowling, you just legitimately kept coming over to the [inaudible 00:29:03].
Sue Bird:
Like Dee saw it and was like, “Get the fuck away from that table.”
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so interesting.
Sue Bird:
So that’s the first.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s like, “So she’s never cared about being a host this much as she did right now.”
Abby Wambach:
It’s sweet. She was trying to protect you, you know, those are the kind of friends you have. And now looking back-
Megan Rapinoe:
I think that Dee was also trying to bring this to Sue’s attention on a more conscious level because Dee wanted it to happen for you.
Sue Bird:
Is that your take?
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah.
Sue Bird:
Oh, that’s right.
Megan Rapinoe:
I think so.
Sue Bird:
I’ll have to ask her.
Megan Rapinoe:
And also it’s this funny thing where we all know each other because, of course I know who Diana Taurasi is. Of course I know who Sue Bird is. We all know each other, but we don’t really know. I feel like women’s sports is getting better at that. Or women in sports or even just entertainment or whatever. I feel like we get a little more self conscious, whereas the guys are out there like, “Yo, what’s up? Of course I know who you are.” And I feel like Dee’s funny and the same. She’s like, “I don’t want any new friends, but like that one seems, that, I could do a one new friend.”
Sue Bird:
Oh. So you think, but I think she was like, “Oh, I hope she ends up with Megan because Megan seems cool and I want to be her friend?”
Megan Rapinoe:
No. Well, a little bit of both.
Sue Bird:
A little bit, she says, yeah.
Megan Rapinoe:
But I think also she’s like one-
Sue Bird:
So this is about you.
Megan Rapinoe:
No, no.
Sue Bird:
I’m just kidding.
Megan Rapinoe:
No.
Sue Bird:
A little bit?
Megan Rapinoe:
No, not at all. Wanted you to find someone who-
Sue Bird:
She recognized how amazing you are and was like, “My friend should be with her.”
Abby Wambach:
This is such a fucking good segue.
Megan Rapinoe:
I walked myself into that, but yeah, basically. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Just going to switch gears real quick. What do you all fight about the most?
Sue Bird:
Oh God. I mean presently, Zoom calls, one is on one and the other one is making noise. This is a big issue in this household.
Megan Rapinoe:
It’s a big issue.
Megan Rapinoe:
It’s just, I couldn’t be more-
Sue Bird:
Do you want to share the fighting story?
Megan Rapinoe:
I couldn’t be more hypocritical about the way that I operate on Zoom for myself.
Sue Bird:
Would you like to share it?
Megan Rapinoe:
And then the way that I operate when Sue’s on Zoom. I’m death eyeing her if she makes one noise.
Sue Bird:
If I literally put that mug down on the thing-
Megan Rapinoe:
… meanwhile I’m opening boxes and stuff. Yeah.
Sue Bird:
She goes-
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. I did have a little Zoom.
Sue Bird:
Oh, this is classic.
Megan Rapinoe:
I did have a Zoom incident. It’s-
Sue Bird:
I am loud off Zoom, I don’t know why. We were in our place in New York. We’ve just bought a place in New York.
Megan Rapinoe:
We’ve just bought a place, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh cool. Yay.
Megan Rapinoe:
There’s nothing really in it. Yeah. You guys will definitely have come visit, obviously invited.
Sue Bird:
Anytime.
Sue Bird:
So it’s really empty. So it’s very echoey, already things are loud.
Megan Rapinoe:
I feel like you need to tell it, but-
Sue Bird:
No, I mean, I just love every time, we’ve shared this story just a couple times-
Megan Rapinoe:
Now it’s going out to the masses because they are the number one podcast in the world.
Sue Bird:
I know, I’ve heard. So she always-
Megan Rapinoe:
I don’t makes the rules.
Sue Bird:
She always loves to, at the start say, it was very echoey and it’s like, “Yes, that’s true because we didn’t have furniture, but also it was loud enough. And I was on a Zoom call. That was actually casual. It wasn’t a podcast or a recording. I was talking to-
Megan Rapinoe:
It was our accountant.
Sue Bird:
Yeah.
Megan Rapinoe:
And our financial advisor, but that’s fine.
Sue Bird:
Well, I wasn’t going to put a name on it because now if they listen, they’re going to know. Well it’s going to confirm what they probably thought. So we’re on the call and out of nowhere I hear, “I’ll be off camera for some,” I hear, “Well, I can’t because the mic’s far. I hear… And I was like, “Oh this bitch just farted.”
Megan Rapinoe:
I didn’t mean it. I did not mean it.
Sue Bird:
This bitch just farted.
Megan Rapinoe:
I’m almost impossible to embarrassed. I actually was a little embarrassed because that-
Sue Bird:
I texted her.
Megan Rapinoe:
… was not intended.
Sue Bird:
I texted her. I was like, “They just heard you fart.”
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Sue Bird:
“We all just heard you fart.”
Abby Wambach:
Well, and actually it probably sounds like Sue farted and she’s like, “Excuse me.”
Glennon Doyle:
But you don’t want to stop and say, “Actually that was Megan.”
Abby Wambach:
Actually-
Sue Bird:
You know what, Abby, I never thought that they thought it was me. So I feel like-
Megan Rapinoe:
I feel like they knew it wasn’t you.
Sue Bird:
That’s hitting me hard right now.
Megan Rapinoe:
I think they knew it wasn’t you.
Sue Bird:
It was further away.
Megan Rapinoe:
I was 15 feet away minimum. I was in the hall. It was really funny.
Sue Bird:
Anyway, so we fight about the Zoom stuff.
Megan Rapinoe:
That was really funny. That was very funny.
Glennon Doyle:
And how do you all fight? Who’s more controlling in your relationship?
Megan Rapinoe:
I feel like we communicate pretty well.
Sue Bird:
Yeah.
Megan Rapinoe:
So we’re not ever yelling, fighting. I’m definitely not a big fighter on that.
Sue Bird:
Megan’s not.
Megan Rapinoe:
I don’t like to do that.
Sue Bird:
I actually will say to her sometimes I’m like, “You remind me of when…” Okay, so in sports, referees are a big pain in the ass, right? So sometimes you’ll look at them and be like, “What the hell was that?” And the referees that go, “You’re right. My bad,” you can’t argue. They just nip you and they neuter you almost. And you want to have this because a lot of referees will be like, “I didn’t see it that way.” And then that’s your chance to be like, “Well you didn’t just see that girl hit the other, you didn’t see this, you see that?” And then when they argue back with you, it’s like this back and forth. But when a referee says, “You’re right,” it just ends it.
Sue Bird:
And sometimes I’ll be like, “You’re acting like that referee right now because,” but this is a compliment actually, what Megan is really good at is she hears you. She’s understanding and processing your, for lack of a better, complaint. And she goes, “Okay. Yeah, I see that, you’re right.” But then when you’re upset about something it’s just like-
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so annoying.
Megan Rapinoe:
Right? The thing is I’m not doing this as a way-
Sue Bird:
No she’s not
Megan Rapinoe:
… of manipulation.
Sue Bird:
But at first I didn’t realize that, I had to get to a place-
Megan Rapinoe:
I’m actually just apologizing.
Glennon Doyle:
Because you thought it was just passive aggressive, right?
Sue Bird:
Yes. And I was like, “Argue with me, please.”
Megan Rapinoe:
And actually what you just said barely hit the nail on the head and that’s not cool of me and I am apologizing. The problem is that some of these things are like character traits where I would love to say that I’m going to remember about the light bulbs. I’m probably not ever in my life going to remember all the time about the light bulbs. I’m like a psycho-
Sue Bird:
I’m like a psycho when it comes to shutting the lights off when we leave the house, I just think isn’t that commonplace?
Megan Rapinoe:
You also, I mean, to steal something from your guys’ podcast with the ticker, I think Amanda was talking about it, of the daily tasks and Sue also lives in 3022 for everything. And I would love to say that mine’s called efficiency, super efficient, super smart, way ahead on things. It’s already shown up at the door and I’m like, “Wow, we should probably think about getting paper towels. And she’s like, “I have it on subscription to the exact amount that we need.”
Sue Bird:
That’s a psycho.
Megan Rapinoe:
No, you’re not psycho at all. It’s actually amazing. But you carry a lot of the household daily ticker tasks. And so of course that gets old. I think you like doing it, but also-
Sue Bird:
I did, yeah.
Megan Rapinoe:
… it gets old and-
Sue Bird:
What do you want your partner to like?
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. And so then when I say, sorry about stuff, knowing we both know full well at this point, “Is it going to change a lot?” I don’t know. So then it feels sorry about I’m saying, sorry, and then not changing my behavior. So that’s what we talk about. I think that’s something that we fight about probably with both of us.
Sue Bird:
The theme of that.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Sue Bird:
Versus like-
Megan Rapinoe:
I feel like we’re both very self aware. We’re both looking in, we’re both understanding, we both have that, but then it’s like, sometimes I just feel like you have to accept shit about your partner because it’s not changing. They are who they are. And it’s like, “We can always be better,” but you’re not going to change the core of who your partner is, I very much believe that. And when we spend so much time together, our [inaudible 00:36:44]-
Sue Bird:
Pandemic, yeah.
Megan Rapinoe:
The same themes keep coming up and up and up, and I feel like the more we can just accept that some of these things, your partner’s going to drive you nuts about all the time. And I have found that some things that I’ve let go of, it’s just better for me because ultimately it’s not going to change. So I’m either mad about it all the time or I’m just like, “That’s her and that’s okay.”
Glennon Doyle:
I mean, Megan, since you’ve known Abby for so long, I want you to know that I spent the first four years of our relationship trying to quiet her down. I thought maybe if we can keep talking about it, I could just-
Abby Wambach:
It’s the volume.
Glennon Doyle:
Lower her volume.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, the volume.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s never going to fucking happen. No, my responsibility is just to go dead inside.
Megan Rapinoe:
Just to listen.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. Just dead inside.
Megan Rapinoe:
It’s like going dead, that’s Sue.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s my job as a lover is to slowly die to that wish. And like for you, I’m never going to put things back in the right place. I’m never-
Abby Wambach:
I think we’ve gotten to a place where we’re starting to accept that.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Because what Megan’s saying, if I say to you, I’m sorry, that implies that I’m going to do it differently and I’m never, ever going to do it differently.
Megan Rapinoe:
Ever.
Sue Bird:
That’s right.
Megan Rapinoe:
That’s the thing, ever. Now we can become better at things, more aware, we can do this, we can do that, but the volume of Abby’s voice is the volume of Abby’s voice.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Megan Rapinoe:
That’s a natural, that’s like asking her to change who she is on the inside. It’s just like-
Glennon Doyle:
Hard.
Megan Rapinoe:
… not going to happen.
Glennon Doyle:
No. And it doesn’t go well Megan-
Abby Wambach:
Although I will say-
Glennon Doyle:
… when I try it, doesn’t go well.
Abby Wambach:
I will say, I do think that I have gotten less loud.
Glennon Doyle:
Really, do you?
Abby Wambach:
I do think that.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you think someone tell you that or are you just-
Megan Rapinoe:
Is that your opinion then?
Sue Bird:
Who told you that? Because they lied.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Who told you that, right? [cross talk 00:38:45].
Abby Wambach:
I love what she said, she said, “I want a partner that partners.” I love that. It’s so good.
Megan Rapinoe:
But she does. I mean, I’m sure it’s same, it’s like you do.
Sue Bird:
Yeah.
Megan Rapinoe:
It’s just there’s these certain areas that are more like my wheelhouse and I want her to participate in what I’m good at, to help. But then to her point, you have to realize that’s not their thing. They’re not going to think of these things. This has been the ongoing.
Glennon Doyle:
The ticker. The ticker starts hitting.
Abby Wambach:
That thing has changed my life. Like now I have to actually write it down, like ticker. So she’ll walk into the room. She’s like, “What are you doing?” And I’m like, “I’m tinkering right now.” And it’s just I’m literally sitting there by myself thinking of all the things that need to get done.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It’s awesome.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. You guys gave me a real word about that. I had a look in the mirror about that because I think it was Amanda who said when her husband comes in and he’s like, “How can I help?” That further proves you have no idea what is going on in our life. And I would ask Sue, “How can I help?” Like an idiot.
Glennon Doyle:
And I got it.
Megan Rapinoe:
And I was like, “Oh my God, I’m doing this awful thing,” then I say, “Oh, how can I help?” Which further proves how much I’m totally out of the loop. So I was like, “You know what? Figure it out. Figure out a way that I can help, figure it out Megan.” I don’t know.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s awesome.
Megan Rapinoe:
So thank you guys for that.
Glennon Doyle:
We talk a lot on this podcast about boundaries. Have you all had to, during this weird time, establish any challenging boundaries with each other or with anybody else in the world that you can think of? Like family of origin stuff, the world, you guys have to deal with the world often and its feelings, or each other.
Megan Rapinoe:
I actually can’t think of anything. The only thing literally just happened yesterday. There’s like sometimes where, because we’re always like gaming things out together, right? Whether it’s saving the world or what’s going on in each of our teams or what’s going on with our families? There’s always like, we’re gaming, we’re talking, we’re gaming things out. And I think one boundary we’re starting to realize we need to set is we can’t… Okay. So as one of us is explaining something that’s frustrating, that’s happening, the other one in their attempt to be supportive can actually whip the other one up. And because we-
Sue Bird:
It’s me.
Megan Rapinoe:
No, it’s not just you.
Sue Bird:
Mostly me.
Megan Rapinoe:
But let’s say-
Sue Bird:
Because I get fired up on your behalf.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yes. But vice versa. And so one of us is like, “Can you believe this, this and that is happening.” And I’m already whipped up and she’ll come in and whip me up even more. And it just happened yesterday where I was like, “Okay, this is actually not helpful now. I’m too whipped up.” And I think I do it to you as well. And so that’s one thing I think we’re starting to realize.
Sue Bird:
That I like to be whipped up.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Whipped is my favorite.
Sue Bird:
I want to whip up for like five hours in a row. Meanwhile, we get to the five hours, we haven’t accomplished anything.
Megan Rapinoe:
That’s right.
Sue Bird:
So I feel like you-
Megan Rapinoe:
But I think that you’re trying to-
Sue Bird:
Sometimes you just need the person to yes, be there and listen and be supportive or show you another side that you’re not seeing, whatever the case is. But yeah, okay, maybe it is a me thing for me then I’m already whipped.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ve never heard anyone talk about that. That is such a huge situation. My sister and I, I mean, I can get on the phone with her and say, “I don’t like, I don’t love it, that person looked at me weird.” In 20 minutes, we’re both homicidal. We’re both plotting the death Of that person and how we can get away with it and remove the body. But I will tell you-
Sue Bird:
Remove the body.
Glennon Doyle:
… but I believe there’s an appropriate level of whipped ness that everyone needs to get to because I also don’t like… I think our dynamic is I’m whipped and then you try to un-whip me.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Telling me everything is okay.
Megan Rapinoe:
That’s frustrating too.
Glennon Doyle:
You know when you’re whipped up about something and somebody’s like, “Well, I mean, let’s look at it from their perspective.” And you’re like, “Okay, no”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Sue Bird:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So what’s the right level? What’s helpful?
Megan Rapinoe:
Right. Yeah, by the way, this is all very like situation dependent, topic dependent. Sometimes you want somebody to be right there whipped up with you. But I think for me, it’s a scenario where it’s like one of my work environments and I was finding that it wasn’t helping me to go from, I was like 0 to 50 and she sent me to 100 and that was like, “This is my work environment. I can’t be at 100.” That was what was happening. So I think that it’s a good, somebody didn’t meet your whipped ness, but maybe not exceed, but not bring you down either. To your point, it is frustrating for someone to try to calm you when you’re not ready to be calmed. And that’s actually what I do. Sometimes she’ll be talking about something and I immediately jump into solutions. And then I realize what happened. I’m like, “Yep. Not yet. I get it. That was too soon.”
Sue Bird:
Too soon, it looks like I’m ready for a solution too soon. I’m in the middle of my bull shit.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah.
Sue Bird:
Too soon on the solution.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah.
Sue Bird:
Well, and you are very solution oriented-
Megan Rapinoe:
I’m very solution-oriented.
Sue Bird:
… and I’m more like not emotional because you are emotional, but I’m more like get in the mix and you’re an organizer and I’m like a fuck shit up in front of the microphone sort of thing, which we both get so much from each other, but it’s a balance of where-
Megan Rapinoe:
Those are the boundaries.
Sue Bird:
…where we need to do that.
Abby Wambach:
Well, and that’s the thing.
Glennon Doyle:
So good. It’s so beautiful.
Abby Wambach:
When Glennon comes to me, she’s coming to me with real problems that are like life and death for people. And so I don’t want to live in that space 24 hours a day. And so sometimes she’ll just be like, “Can you please just not bright side this? This is not a bright sideable moment. This is horrible. This is bad. Let’s just sit and feel bad for a little bit.” And when that is the consistent conversation, I’m like, “Fuck.” I’m sad now. Now I’m actually sad.
Sue Bird:
Yeah. It’s hard.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t like being sad.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That’s true because I can get to the thing and then get to what we’re going to do and then be done because what my work requires of me. And you’re like, “Oh, but,” for the rest of the day.
Megan Rapinoe:
For the rest of the day.
Abby Wambach:
I’m like, “But is the world ending? I think that you just told me it is and now I’m supposed to deal with that?” I don’t know.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Okay. I want to ask you guys some quick questions, just a little rapid fire type thing, but it doesn’t have to be rapid because I’ve never actually-
Megan Rapinoe:
We’ll do our best, but sometimes we’re long winded.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s not, I’ve never done a rapid thing in my damn life. So
Megan Rapinoe:
I try to do rapid. And I’m like, “Well I need to give context.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Don’t worry about your rapidity. Okay. Which one of you is the more jealous one? And do you ever get jealous?
Megan Rapinoe:
I am not-
Sue Bird:
Yeah. She’s not.
Megan Rapinoe:
… generally a jealous person. I don’t get too whipped up about that. But also it hasn’t really happened with you and I feel like I could be.
Sue Bird:
She’s not.
Megan Rapinoe:
I’m not?
Sue Bird:
She’s not.
Megan Rapinoe:
I think [inaudible 00:46:15]-
Sue Bird:
It’s more me because she’s literally not.
Megan Rapinoe:
Do you feel like you’re jealous? I don’t feel like you are.
Sue Bird:
I’m more jealous. I don’t know that I’m like a-
Megan Rapinoe:
I guess you’re not going to be [inaudible 00:46:24]-
Sue Bird:
… super jealous person. I’m more jealous. I’m more jealous contextually than you or conceptually than you.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like we’re both jealous, do you?
Abby Wambach:
No, you’re definitely more jealous than me. And also if somebody comes into our situation where I get a weird vibe with, I’m like, “Cut all ties.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. Cut them off.
Abby Wambach:
Cut all ties because I’ve been traumatized in my past. And so when I feel the feeling, I tell you, I’m like, “That person crossed a boundary. I don’t know what it is. Maybe nothing has happened.” Literally they’re probably wonderful people.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s always a fun conversation. I’ve had it a few times. I can’t really speak to you again. Nor can I explain to you why. God’s speed.
Megan Rapinoe:
And I feel sometimes I know that people are vibing like you or whatever. And sometimes I just don’t feel threatened and I’m like, “Well, they want to, you do understand what’s happening right now?”They like you, but it’s fine because I don’t feel threatened by it. But don’t ever give me anything to feel threatened by.
Glennon Doyle:
Whew. That’s so interesting. That’s amazing to me. So is the fact that I feel jealous of certain people and I haven’t been jealous for years, but that’s also because we haven’t seen any other human beings probably.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right. COVID it’s true.
Megan Rapinoe:
Direct correlation.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. COVID has made me a more mature person, but is it because I feel actually threatened. That’s so embarrassing.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t know.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t either. I’ll think about it. Okay. What do you guys do for fun?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
This is a theme for us. We try to figure out what is the thing that you do that isn’t related to your productivity or that you get nothing out of except for enjoyment.
Abby Wambach:
I keep trying to bring up things that we can do for fun together. Like I just brought up the other day like, “I think we should get into pickle ball.”
Megan Rapinoe:
Like activities?
Glennon Doyle:
She wants me to play a fucking sport with her.
Abby Wambach:
You’ll learn when you get retired, Megan, you’ll learn that-
Megan Rapinoe:
You got to get it out.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t know what I’m going to do. What am I going to do to work out and have fun? Because you got to do at the same time. Well, we do just because we have children and that takes up all of our day.
Megan Rapinoe:
I mean- listen. Okay. You go first and then I’ll give mine.
Sue Bird:
I think what we do together really well is understand that we need other people. So we have a great friend group that will make sure we get dinners in with or plan a weekend and go hang out at their house. We’ve done vacations. I think the dinners part is a big part of our life. Finding a cool new restaurant or one that has been around forever that we’ve never been to, checking those boxes. Those to me are outlets and things to do. I try to get her to do. I love board games and I’ve tried to get her into like Backgammon or something like that. She just-
Megan Rapinoe:
This is also-
Sue Bird:
Even when I was teaching the domino the other day, you were just like no, I was like- “Wait, did you like it?” “Yeah. Yeah I did.” I was like, “Did you?”
Megan Rapinoe:
I don’t know. Did I? I don’t know.
Megan Rapinoe:
Also I think that there is something about my insecurity, you are so smart and especially when we start playing games, Sue has the ability to hold 25 different fully gamed out situations in her head at one time and every single day I leave for my workout I forget something. I just can’t hold it all in my head. It’s somewhere, so I think there’s a little bit of that. And you grew up playing games and I didn’t really grow up playing games and stuff. I think that the only thing I enjoy doing really outside of, no, I say that like outside of my sport, which is a lot, and outside of what I consider my work, which is the activism and however we want to say it, I don’t even know if activism is the right word.
Megan Rapinoe:
I just only really care about going to dinner with friends and having fun and seeing other people and just that community and whatever, and having conversation. Is talking a hobby?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Megan Rapinoe:
We love talking.
Sue Bird:
We love it.
Megan Rapinoe:
We love to play out scenarios or do debates or talk about issues. I mean, especially with our closest friends, we flush a lot out of what’s our stance? How do we talk about it? What does this mean? Blah, blah, blah. And of course I love shopping. We can’t really do a lot of that now, but I think that would be, fashion and everything is like a form of self expression for me and now for you and-
Sue Bird:
It’s becoming.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. And outside of that, I’m not hiking, I’m not doing other sports. I’m not doing other physical activities. I’ve started to get into cooking a little bit. We’ll see how long that lasts. But I’m also tired, our lives are busy and we have a lot and I just want to go to dinner and eat great food and have good wine.
Sue Bird:
Do you remember early, very early in our relationship, I had already, no, maybe that’s not one that happened, but it was early in the relationship within maybe a year, and we were trying to plan a vacation and you said it first, but I was thinking it and it was like, “Well, we’re going to invite other people, right?” And actually in the early part of our relationship, we were together a lot. But then it was like yeah, we like other people coming into our space or us going into theirs and doing all the things we just said.
Megan Rapinoe:
We spend a lot of-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s magical to me. So do you all like the same sorts of people, is making friends hard for you? Are most of your friends queer couples? Do you ever have a couple where you’re like, “I don’t like her, but the other one does,” It feels like it’s so easy for you the way you’re talking about it.
Megan Rapinoe:
You have-
Sue Bird:
I have, yeah.
Megan Rapinoe:
I’m not as good as keeping touch. I feel like I have a lot of friends, they’re just all over the place.
Sue Bird:
That’s what sports does. It’s really the sad part.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. And you’ve done a better job of keeping in touch and you have-
Sue Bird:
I have some home friends in New York. Not necessarily the ones I grew up with. There’s a couple, but just through the years who you became friends with, from New York where I’m from, and those are the homies forever.
Megan Rapinoe:
They’re amazing.
Sue Bird:
And they’ve now adopted Megan. I think they like you better.
Megan Rapinoe:
No. Not even close.
Sue Bird:
Yeah, which is totally fine.
Megan Rapinoe:
It’s wild.
Sue Bird:
But Megan is now in this group, they have their own individual friendships and relationships and we’ve been lucky in that way, that it’s worked out like that.
Megan Rapinoe:
But no, we don’t have a lot of new friends.
Sue Bird:
No, not, no.
Megan Rapinoe:
It’s like we have such little time as it is making new friends is hard and a lot. And then it’s going to take away, like it’s hard to even schedule a dinner with the existing friends that we have. So it’s like-
Glennon Doyle:
Where do you meet new friends? I don’t know.
Sue Bird:
I don’t either.
Sue Bird:
I have no idea. That to me is the saddest part. One of the sadder parts about being an athlete is you grow up with someone or a team or a certain amount of teammates. You have all these experiences, all these shared experiences, the highs, the lows, these are seriously deep relationships. Now you may not know their names of their sibling, but you’re going to know a lot of other things about them. It’s like this weird, unique thing.
Sue Bird:
But at the same time, the ones you do become super close with, life goes on. You all live where you live. And then like I spoke about Diana, she lives in Phoenix, in California and outside of the WNBA season, if I see her once a year, I feel lucky. And I know it’s the same for you and a lot of your friends, I’m sure you got, you guys spent all this time together. When’s the last time you saw each other? And that to me is the saddest part because those relationships would continue to thrive and they just get stunted because you’re so far away from each other.
Glennon Doyle:
What’s the most important thing to each of you in a friend? And what’s the deal breaker?
Megan Rapinoe:
Oh, there can be absolutely no bullshit, I don’t know. It’s like no games, no bullshit, no dishonesty.
Sue Bird:
Yeah, the trust part.
Megan Rapinoe:
We don’t have time for this. Like I said, it’s already difficult enough to find time and I feel like we have to deal with bullshit in all other ways. I don’t want that friction, it just feels like a waste of time. Why am I spending time with this person if they’re even making me question anything? And that trust, I feel like our friend group in New York and even friends that I have scattered, there’s just this trust that if I don’t talk to you for three months, it’s fine, we’ll just pick up at dinner. Or we’re always there to support each other and have each other’s back. It has to be that easy feeling.
Megan Rapinoe:
Otherwise I would just rather, not in a mean way, I would just like rather not hang out. It’s totally fine. We clearly don’t vibe or something, but like if it’s not a hundred, it’s not worth it. We’d rather just chill with ourselves or with other friends that we have, the forced situation. And I don’t know if it comes from being in sports so long, I can get along with anyone, put me at any dinner table in the entire world, it’s like fine. I can have a conversation, whatever. But it’s like I’ve been forced to spend so much time with so many people that I would never choose, not in a bad way. They wouldn’t choose me either. But I’ve had so much of that. I want zero of that-
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Megan Rapinoe:
… moving forward.
Glennon Doyle:
We just did this whole thing about friendship and that’s the science of friendship, is it should be a 100% or nothing, that we all have this idea that relationships should be suffering, but actually friendships are the one things we get to choose, right? We don’t get to choose our freaking family. Once we get married, we don’t really get to choose our partner. That’s like done deal. But our friendships are the one thing that we can be like, “No, 100 or zero, no friction.”
Abby Wambach:
And I think, you guys are touching on a lot of stuff that I’ve thought about, especially over the last five, six years of my retirement, having these friends that you go to a camp, you’re playing on your teams and you have people around all the time. One thing that I think what will happen when you retire is you’re going to get really picky about the people that you spend, because you all are so busy and having those friendships that you do get chosen families, a lot of, especially gay women, not that you guys have bad families situations, but I just know that having other queer women in our lives is really important to feel like you’re having that sense of community in some way.
Glennon Doyle:
And they’re just better.
Megan Rapinoe:
I mean, being gay is the best they ever, for like every reason under the sun.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank God. Okay. We kept you for too long already. This is called We Can Do Hard Things. What’s the hardest thing you’re dealing with right now, before we leave in your life? What’s the hardest?
Sue Bird:
I mean, I think for me, I’ve said I was going to play another, it’s more than likely my last. So there’s the whole retirement, which is really code word for identity and who are you without this? So that’s always just swirling in the back, because like I was saying earlier how some days I show up to the workout, I feel bad some days, I feel good on the good days. I’m like, “Maybe I just do this literally another couple of years.” And I know that’s just me holding onto the identity, not the game itself or any of those things. So I think that’s probably the hardest thing I’m dealing with right now.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so honest and beautiful.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. I mean the aging athlete is tough because my life has never been totally wrapped up in soccer either. I’ve always felt my identity firmly in other places, which sometimes is worse, because I’m like, “Do you want to do this? Do you want to keep doing it?” And a lot of other things are wrapped up in it. So that’s a little bit. And then I think trying to create a world that takes me fully into account. Sure you guys feel this way. I think you feel this way being in women’s sports, every day, I’m like, “This is insane.” The world that we live in is completely insane. It doesn’t take our full selves into account and so many other full selves into account. And so how do you, because it’s not like we can just go to another planet, in a more evolved place, this is where we are, but how do I live outside of that while breaking that down, but not getting bogged down by that?
Megan Rapinoe:
Almost trying to live in the future and setting things up and doing things differently, I think is always a challenge because it’s like we can’t do things the same way that other, whether it’s successful male athletes or successful media, people, whatever, we can’t do it the way that it was done. And it’s a really difficult trap to not fall into because it makes you think that you can, they’re like, “Just do this and just do this and just do this and say this and blah, blah, blah.” And then you get to the end where you’ve done everything and they’re like, “Yeah, it’s still not in.”
Abby Wambach:
Yes, and listen, but you have to keep doing that Megan and Sue because you all are trailblazers and trailblazers are always questioning themselves. Whether we want to believe that or not, trailblazers are like, “Fuck, what am I doing?” Sue, and I’m sure a lot of people tell you this, “Just really take in everything and enjoy your last year.” And what I will tell you is that my life got so much better when I retired. It got so much better-
Megan Rapinoe:
A lot of people say that.
Sue Bird:
People are saying that.
Abby Wambach:
The biggest fears that I had were where I was going to make money, how I was going to make money and what I was going to do to get healthcare. And the truth is I’ve made more money in my retirement, much, by just actually giving more time to myself to create things and do things that I want to do.
Glennon Doyle:
And that’s the beauty of being a woman athlete. There’s plenty of chances to make more when you stop.
Megan Rapinoe:
I mean, literally.
Sue Bird:
That’s actually the wild part. I think that’s what’s hard to wrap your head around. Like being told, I think what you’re saying is you’re not valued as maybe an athlete in the moment, like WNBA, I mean, the hate is crazy. So you feel lesser than, but then you walk off the court and a company wants to sponsor you or somebody wants to hear you speak. And then you’re told you’re valued, and so it’s just like, “What?” To me, that’s where it’s like-
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah, I actually-
Sue Bird:
… banging my head against the wall.
Megan Rapinoe:
I think that’s actually the thing that is the hardest all the time. And particularly for me since 2019, is the balance between doing my job, which is playing soccer, at least it’s one of my jobs, but it’s like the cornerstone job, even though it’s the one where I get treated the worst, paid the worst and all the conditions are the worst. Everything else is not relying on it, but-
Sue Bird:
Predicated on it.
Megan Rapinoe:
… whatever. And so what’s the balance between doing my job and then securing my financial future because especially being older, post 2019, I’m not an idiot and I’m not going to be like, “No, I’m going to focus 100% on soccer so I can be the best player that I can be and totally forego my financial security in the future,” nor should I have to. But every minute that you go this way, it takes away from soccer. And then just constantly feeling like you’re at odds with yourself and with your career and all of that, and how difficult it is to actually just be a women’s professional player in any sort of league with coupling out with this weird world that’s exploded for us off the field. So it’s constantly trying not to hate everyone all the time basically.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Megan Rapinoe:
I hate to say this since it’s probably going to get clipped by Washington Examiner, but sometimes I’m just like, “I hate everyone for everything that you do to all of us.” It’s so frustrating. It’s so frustrating.
Abby Wambach:
It’s so fucking infuriating because here’s the thing, y’all should be able to, at this age, at this time in your life, be able to walk away completely fine and financially set for life. But we’re women athletes, so it’s constantly fighting that battle and-
Sue Bird:
No, totally.
Megan Rapinoe:
It’s like fighting the powers that be to break things down. But I would really love to just, quite frankly, never deal with US soccer ever again.
Abby Wambach:
Yep. Blow it up.
Megan Rapinoe:
That would be my goal.
Sue Bird:
That’s going to be the clip.
Megan Rapinoe:
I know, that’s going to be the clip. And honestly I’ve to say that right to the board because have they given us a platform? Yes. Have we been one of the best supported teams in the world better than awful, doesn’t mean good, but okay? Yes. I understand that there is good with it, but to feel like in so many other parts of my life I’m moving on and being more open-minded and progressive and working with people that are not just like minded in the sense of a feedback loop, but actually view me the way that I view myself and I want myself to be viewed as a whole human and I view them that way. And we view each other that way. And then sometimes we get stuck back in these old antiquated ways that just-
Sue Bird:
Can I say something?
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah, go ahead.
Sue Bird:
I love to use whether it’s movie quotes or things you saw somewhere and bring it all back around. And I don’t know why this ever stuck in my head, but I feel like I say it pretty often. It’s from the movie Selena and it’s when her dad is like, “We have to be more Mexican than the Mexicans and more American than the Americans.” And I feel like that is the life of a female athlete. You have to be, whatever it is you’re supposed to be over here, you have to be that times a thousand and whatever it is you’re supposed to be over here, that times a thousand. And you’re just stuck in these places. And it’s actually different for every athlete because everyone has their own lane for lack of a better that it might show up in. But yeah, it’s like Selena’s dad said, that’s how I feel all the time.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t know if we’re going to name this podcast, I hate everybody or it’s like Selena’s dad said, because both, I love.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, it’s good. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Well maybe we’ll title it, it’s like Selena’s dad said, I hate everybody.
Abby Wambach:
I hate everybody.
Glennon Doyle:
Right?
Megan Rapinoe:
But it’s just constantly that.
Glennon Doyle:
This is all such big stuff. And what you’re talking about, having evolved past an institution that you have to stay in. I have a friend who talks about, Zen Cohen, which is there’s a goose that’s growing inside of a glass bottle, right? How do you get the goose outside of the bottle without hurting the goose or shattering the bottle? And I see you, Megan trying to do that so beautifully where you have this bottle that is so fucked up and so small, but is the only container for these younger women coming up. So you can’t say burn it all down, even though that’s what you do you want to say, because then you have to come back 20 times and say, “I didn’t mean burn it down. I meant like put a fire-hose.”
Megan Rapinoe:
Little, little, yeah, it’s totally. And it’s really what I want to do, being the goose inside the bottle, I’ll break the bottle. It’s fine. I don’t care if I cut my foot on the way out. That’s totally fine. But then don’t look at me and be like, “Oh my God, did you break the bottle? That’s very destructive.” And I’m like, “Okay, well I’m sorry I couldn’t fit the lower half of my body through that tiny opening at the top.” It’s like people want to acknowledge for female athletes now or women who play female sports, we know it’s not what it needs to be, but also don’t talk about that too much and don’t push too much. And also we’ll be the ones that’ll continue to set the benchmarks or make the rules or whatever, when actually, we do have all the answers. I firmly believe that. I feel me and Jessica Clarendon, the woman that I work with full time now, Layshia Clarendon, is her wife.
Megan Rapinoe:
So obviously, we have this whole fuck it up brain trust going on. At least we try to. We always talk about living in the future and just telling people, “It’s going to be okay, you guys aren’t going to die. Come with us. Everything is going to be okay.” But we do know how to live in the future. And I feel like if you gave us the keys, I’m sure you guys feel this way, to whatever institution, whether it’s sports or media or this, I could do a good job, I just know that. But it’s like how many other people think that? Is it just us thinking that? And having to try to convince everyone else, we know what’s going on, but yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, if we want to know how to do it, we can watch the WNBA. I mean-
Megan Rapinoe:
That is true.
Sue Bird:
That is a good way.
Glennon Doyle:
For fucks sake the t-shirt the goose has on-
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah. Says the woman.
Glennon Doyle:
… in the glass bottle of the WNBA, we’ll lead the way, right? We adore both of you. Megan, I have adored you forever, but Sue, I just knew you’d be as wonderful as you are. Oh.
Sue Bird:
Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
And thank you Sue for your intense gentleness. I have noticed that every time you start to say something that is a sports metaphor, you start it with, in sports. And I know you’re talking to me and trying to help me through and I noticed it. I see you and I thank you.
Sue Bird:
Thank you.
Megan Rapinoe:
I love your take on sports.
Sue Bird:
Yeah. We love it.
Megan Rapinoe:
Your Twitter feed.
Megan Rapinoe:
I feel closer to you in the way that I feel about sports than anything else that I’ve ever read or whatever. I always say the sports. I’m like go sports. And it’s just a wild space. It is a wild space.
And I’m like, “This is so weird. Go sports.” So anytime you chime in, it’s just the best thing around what she said.
Abby Wambach:
So good.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a beautiful thing to come to the sports with beginner’s luck just trying to make sense of it.
Abby Wambach:
You’re all are icons. Not just sports icons, but really feminists and women in the world that are doing world changing things. And I can’t wait for you all to retire. The world actually needs you in the side of the-
Megan Rapinoe:
New friends? New friends?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Sue Bird:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m excited to for it too. I’m excited to see what happens when they’re out of the bottle.
Megan Rapinoe:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
We love you. Go do all the things. Try to be quiet when each other is on Zoom meetings, Megan, stop being such a hypocrite.
Sue Bird:
It’s so true.
Megan Rapinoe:
Sue share your feelings.
Glennon Doyle:
And to the rest of you. Aww. They’re so cute.
Abby Wambach:
They are so cute.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m so glad you have each other. All right. When things get hard this week, don’t forget, we can do hard things.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.