Be Messy, Complicated & Afraid–and Show Up Anyway
February 17, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Well, hi, sister and wife.
Abby Wambach:
Hello.
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome back to, We Can Do Hard Things. We did really hard things on Tuesday. We talked about some light topics like relapsing and eating disorders, and mental illness. And I felt like it was hard and good. And so, we’re going to continue that conversation a little bit.
Glennon Doyle:
Listeners, first of all, please go back and listen to Tuesday’s episode, where we discussed this hard thing, which is that over the holidays, I had an eating disorder relapse. And that’s an overly simplified description of what happened. So, go back and listen, if you are not triggered by those things. And then, I just wanted to know how you two are doing and feeling about me, about what I revealed and about revealing it, about both.
Amanda Doyle:
I just want to say, like you so kindly said in the last episode, that if you are listening and you are triggered by this eating disorder conversations, then you should skip this week’s episode, including today, and come back with us next Tuesday, because we’re just speaking very candidly here today.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. So, how are you guys doing?
Abby Wambach:
I mean, listen, it takes me back to the time when we first met. And I was really, I was struggling in so many ways. And I think it was the first time that I ever had an interaction with a person that wanted all of my, what I would call, not you, all of my problems. Like that said, “Hey, this is a part of who you are. And I love you because of this.” Obviously, I don’t wish this on anyone, you being my most important favorite person of on the planet. But what happens in the whole of our life, the choices we make and the life that we continue to create together, no matter what those choices are, we promise each other. And we have promised each other to always begin again, if we fall.
Glennon Doyle:
Begin again, that’s right.
Abby Wambach:
And I think that this was an opportunity for me to continue to prove that that’s what we promised each other back then. And the fact that you want to do this publicly is not surprising because you always promise your folks, the listener, that you’re not perfect, but you will be honest. And I think that is the way to freedom, because it’s the shame that takes us out of the game. I just think that the way that you we’re so open and honest about this, and the way that you want to keep talking about it. One of the things that we talked about a lot early on is like, what does this do to your sobriety? What is the meaning behind all of this?
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s interesting to bring up the word sobriety because I haven’t figured that out yet. When I think about the kind of slippery, the slow fade, that in some ways I can look back now and see over the last couple of years, maybe, I don’t know. It’s hard to make sense of all of it. When I think like, why didn’t I see it more clearly and raise my hand earlier? Why did it take getting to the point where I was throwing up every day? I know better than that, I guess is what I think, why didn’t I get help earlier? And it’s interesting because in sobriety, sobriety means whatever the hell it means for each person.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Right? Sobriety is a word like God, or like joy, or like success. It can only be defined by each person, which is why it’s ridiculous when people start to police each other about what sobriety is or what God is, or whatever. I think to me, it’s like, my sobriety is a way of life, which means I’m not keeping any secrets from myself, which means I’m not actively hurting myself.
Glennon Doyle:
So, I think in my mind, I was thinking if I ask for help and admit to myself and other people that my eating is out of control again, then I have to admit or say that I’ve lost my sobriety. And there’s this weird sobriety rule that like, we’re supposed to gather days, like how many days you’ve been sober or how many years you’ve been sober, is a badge of honor. That is your achievement in sobriety. It’s like your validity. It’s your validity. It’s your worth. It’s your worth. It’s your bank account.
Abby Wambach:
In this culture of sobriety. Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
In sobriety culture. So, it’s like, if I’ve been sober, which I would say before this, I would say I’ve been sober for 20 years, since I found out I was pregnant with Chase, when I quit all the drinking and the binging, and smoking, and all of that. I was like the cost of raising my hand and getting help was going to cost me 20 years. I had to turn in my 20 year token in order to raise my hand and get help. The cost of getting my sobriety back was abandoning all of my sobriety.
Abby Wambach:
It’s really backwards.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like giving up my entire bank account, so that I could get help. And there’s something weird about that.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like, it feels like an old way of thinking, almost like a patriarchal hierarchal way of thinking. Whereas really, our worthy, our success in sobriety can’t just be passed. It can’t just be a bank account of days. It has to be, “But am I living a sober, beautiful day right now?” And if I’m not, then abandon all of it. Right? Because it’s always about right now and today. And when I think about how weird that is, I know better than to believe in validity or worth by numbers, or bank accounts, or any of that. I think it’s deeper than that.
Glennon Doyle:
I think that each of those numbers, because I actually did it before I admitted anything, I have like 7,400 days or something. I don’t know remember what it was. It represents, it’s as if each of those days is a mile. And the mile is the distance between my sober, valid success self, and that dark weird sick self. It’s like, you’re not just separating these tokens these days in my heart. They represented the distance safety, the distance between who I was and who I am now. And the terror of needing help is the terror of saying there was never any distance.
Amanda Doyle:
Fuck.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Abby Wambach:
Jesus.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s the reason you were listening on last episode, you were listening to that person on their second day sober and you felt jaded. And the reason why when you are on the platform yet again, the thing that makes you jaded and want to reject the person who’s 7,000 days away from you is the same thing that gives you so much freedom when you realize like, I’m exactly that person. I’m exactly that person every single day. Every single day, I’m the same exact person all the way through this person and 20 years ago. And I think it’s the disassociation with that person that gives us that jaded thing, “Oh, I’m different from you.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It’s just wildly blowing my mind. I know that I am the same person on some level that I was before I got sober, and that there’s this fear of losing that sobriety because of all of the days that I’ve put in between me and that. It’s like, I feel confident that that won’t happen. But also, I have to remember that I am you, I am standing with you on that landing every day.
Glennon Doyle:
And I was your friend who was calling you on the second day of recovery.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
That was me. And that’s why that was annoying me so much.
Abby Wambach:
Yes. And it’s so humbling. And quite frankly, it’s like the most humbling thing, even though this is your story, this is also my story.
Glennon Doyle:
I hope you don’t hear me saying that, I’m not saying collecting days of sobriety is bullshit. That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying for me, what I realized was that accumulation was an illusion. And also, for me, I need a better system of collecting things that then I have to pay, if I need help.
Abby Wambach:
That’s fucking right.
Glennon Doyle:
That doesn’t feel like helpful to me because well, all I care about is this day that I’m sober. And sober, meaning that I’m not hurting myself, that I’m not lying to myself and I’m not hurting myself. And it’s scary for anybody. And I talked to you about this the first day. It’s scary for me as someone who people trust and look to. It makes me feel like, well, now they’re all going to think I’m a fraud or that I’m-
Abby Wambach:
This is who you’ve been telling people you are though all along.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I’m not saying it makes super sense. I’m just saying, I love that, I am someone who deals with depression and anxiety, and eating disorders, and that people who also suffer from those things can look at me and be like, “Look, she’s doing it.” And so, it scares me to think that I could be letting those people down, but then I think, but this is what it looks like to be doing it.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
Be messy and complicated and show up anyway. I mean, that’s exactly what you’ve always been doing.
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, what is the thing though? Because part of it has to have been the perfect storm, right? You’ve always been who you are. You’ve always dealt with this, but something about those days, where you made the first decision or compulsion, or couldn’t resist anymore, taking that first step down the stairs from the landing. What was it about those? Because I’m not trying to do the thing where I’m like Mr. Fixer upper, but there are factors that we’re holding at bay at all times. We’re managing. We’re holding at bay. And then there are sometimes where we’re like the dam has broken. We can’t do it anymore. So, when you look back at that particular period, what is the perfect storm of elements that we’re making.
Glennon Doyle:
The why’s. What are the whys? I mean, okay, I will talk to you about what they could be like things we’ve been talking about, but I also know that anybody with this sort of thing knows that you just make up narratives about it, and it could be that and it could be, “I’ll be horse shit.” I don’t know is the answer. I don’t know, but I have some ideas of the whys.
Glennon Doyle:
I mean, I think the first, why is that I have had a serious eating disorder since I was 10 years old. And that is a mental illness that goes along with my depression, the anxiety and that the times that’s going to come up. I think that’s a thing.
Glennon Doyle:
I think that the out of control state of the world is hard for everybody. And for some people with mental challenges, you’re always trying to find some stable ground. And that is how you find yourself, is you just try to find some solid ground. And when that ground, it’s never real. But when it’s so impossible to pretend it’s real-
Amanda Doyle:
When the illusion of stability is not present.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Yeah. Then it becomes hard to find a place to stand. By that more specifically, I just mean the breakdown of health and the breakdown of feeling like there are any real leaders, and the breakdown of guidance and schools, and all of it, and trying to do any of it with any bit of dignity or hope, or stability.
Glennon Doyle:
I think that trying to deal with an eating disorder and mental illness while being such a public person is tricky. I think in some ways it’s made it more beautiful and helpful. And I think in other ways it makes it more challenging.
Glennon Doyle:
I think that the stuff that’s gone on with our family of origin recently, with bringing up old patterns from when we were little with our family, I think if we needed to look at a perfect storm for why it all came up at the end of the year, everybody was in town. So, we were back in our little family of origin, the dynamic, the elephants in the room with what we had been talking about, but nothing feeling resolved.
Glennon Doyle:
I also have been, when I think about what I was doing during the mornings of every single one of those days, I was talking in depth to my writing partner for the Untamed Show and trying to get even more honest with talking a lot about being a mentally ill little one, about being a sick 10 year old, 11 year old, 12 year old, 13 year old. And when I think about how I felt after each of those calls, which were like an hour and a half, two hour Zoom calls, I felt very tired and sad after those. So, perhaps that matched with then leaving those meetings and going into the family dynamic, where I felt like things were unresolved, and then feeling 10 years old again.
Glennon Doyle:
But it’s like, it’s so hard to go, even if you have a beautiful family, the family origin shit is so heavy and it’s like, you can feel like you have so much distance. You have 7,000 days of sobriety. You are a grown up. You have all of your strategies and boundaries and whatever. And then you get back with your family and you feel in good and terrible ways, like you’re a kid again who can’t protect themselves or like-
Amanda Doyle:
Well, everyone plays their roles. Their part played. So, it doesn’t matter what you’ve become or who you are now, the role and the person you are in your family that you’ve created, every one just defaults straight back to the role that they’ve always played in their original family unit. So, it’s like this ill-fitting strange persona you put on just because that’s how families work, is that everyone has their role and you did it for 18 years, and you go back and it’s like, walk in the door, put on your suit, put on your family role. Everyone do their thing. This is why people are all different outside of their family of origin, it’s because they don’t have to put on that role.
Glennon Doyle:
What really freaked me out, which I haven’t even… I’m just on the periphery of this thought, which was, I only thought of this like two nights ago. And I was thinking, isn’t this interesting? You’re feeling that everything was unresolved, the dynamics we’ve brought up, whatever, it’s too much chaos and it’s undefinable, and nobody can figure it out. So, I’ll just go back to my role, which then gives everybody in the family, their role. Is that making any sense? Like don’t worry about it.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. Are you creating exactly the coping mechanism that you did before?
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like, I pointed all this stuff out, but that didn’t work. So never mind, I’ll just be the sick one. I’ll be the weak one. I don’t know.
Amanda Doyle:
But the difference is, and this is so hard, because so much of all we are from our childhood becomes who we are and becomes, we’re either building on or recovering from, or trying to change forever. So, that the only difference between an adult and a child is that you are in your own ecosystem, you have to be responsible for yourself now, because you literally are. You couldn’t be responsible for yourself then because you weren’t. I think that’s a real issue. We could go on and on, and on, because there’s justification for everyone, because life has been so hard to continue doing the thing that herds us very, very reasonable and validating reasons to be unhealthy for the rest of our lives. Every person has a blank check to do that. But like at what point, and I’m not trying to say bootstrap, that’s the opposite of what I’m saying. I really don’t know at what point it becomes our own recreation of those things. We are the people our families created until we’re not. And that has to be like us somehow stepping into that.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. And that’s what I’ve been doing. That’s my entire life is about that. We’ve talked about this so much. It’s like this house is like the true or more beautiful world for me, is my family and my house, and the way we do things and the way people treat each other and the way-
Abby Wambach:
And what we’re teaching our children.
Glennon Doyle:
There are no lies. It’s not perfect for God’s sake. Even with me and Craig, I don’t think Craig always likes, but he trusts me.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
And that’s what I’ve been doing, building this life that when I see a toxin, when I see something that isn’t real enough or true enough, that’s it, it’s out.
Abby Wambach:
It’s different with family.
Glennon Doyle:
And then when our family of origin comes in, and when I’m talking about like, other people, friends, whoever, no, fuck you, out, goodbye. This is our place. And the family of origin place is the only situation where I don’t feel like I can do anything about it. You and I were talking yesterday, we were on this walk, we were like, I just want to be less affected by all of it.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Our dream for ourselves, with our families of origin, we’re walking like we were aliens. We’re like, how do we love our family and let them be who they are? I’m not trying to be affected by it sister. I’m not trying to not strap myself by bootstraps or whatever that saying is. I am a person who knows how to forge my life. I’ve been doing it. That’s what I do. But it’s like a kryptonite to me.
Glennon Doyle:
What do you feel, sissy? What are you thinking about all of this?
Amanda Doyle:
I have so many thoughts. I think we underestimate the degradation of all of our resources and coping mechanisms over the last two years. If your resistance is normally at a nine, to the way that life beats the shit out of us. And you have gradually and gradually, and gradually gone down to a two. Something that never would’ve tip to nine is going to tip a two. And I just, I think that a lot of us are dealing with that right now at varying levels.
Amanda Doyle:
I think the other thought I have, it’s just interesting, the kind of pervasive and insidious way that eating disorders show up. Because when you were saying, “I can smell a toxin and call it out, and sniff it out.” Why is the actual eating disorder impervious to that lens? Because theoretically, if that were true, like when there’s bullshit, I call it out. I do you not allow it.
Glennon Doyle:
Unless it’s inside me.
Amanda Doyle:
Right. Exactly. Theoretically, it could be like, “Okay, I have the compulsion to do this right now.” I know that that is toxic horse shit. But it doesn’t work for that. I don’t know the answer or desire to live in these truth places push us towards the gross indignities.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so good. And it’s the insanity of mental illness. It’s like logic does not permeate. It’s never been able to talk me out of depression. It’s never been able to talk me out of anxiety. My intelligence, which is high, my wisdom, my judgment, discernment, none of those things have ever permeated depression, anxiety or eating disorder. It’s maddening. It’s absolutely maddening. Also, I did think of another thing, just this morning, before we were getting-
Abby Wambach:
God, I get so excited when you say, “I’ve thought of another thing.” And also terrified because we haven’t talked about it.
Glennon Doyle:
No, but it’s a good thing, I think. It’s like when I think about this self that I felt like I was honoring by letting her speak today with all the weirdness, even if people think it’s weird, or call me crazy or whatever. It felt like she was like dusting off her whatever, that’s like getting ready to be able speak. And then I was thinking, when does she ever get to speak anymore, the wild, swirly, sparkly, dark, indigo purple self? And then I was thinking, I’m not writing anymore much. I haven’t written, really written for a couple years.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s interesting.
Abby Wambach:
It is.
Glennon Doyle:
And then I was thinking, because that self that I write with is that self. I don’t give a fuck, if people think it’s weird. That’s when she comes out to play. And she’s like, “Oh no.” While you’re acting out there, this is what she’s thinking. Right?
Glennon Doyle:
And then I thought, I don’t want to write right now. Words don’t feel true enough to me right now. And so, I started thinking about art. And this is just like the very beginning of something. But I want to do something that’s artistic, that is not writing. I don’t know what it is.
Amanda Doyle:
Are we getting a Glennon album?
Glennon Doyle:
Collage. No. I’m so sad that I don’t know how to sing or make music, because I feel like I would be a good musician if I had that talent. I do. But it’s something. Do you know what it is? It’s the first step, the beginner’s mind awe. I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m freaking making a mosaic or painting. I don’t know.
Amanda Doyle:
What about poetry?
Glennon Doyle:
I need to do something weird. Yeah. Poetry, maybe. I’ve always wanted. Yes. It’s like a weird self. I have a weird self. And I don’t feel like my weird self-
Abby Wambach:
Is getting much attention.
Glennon Doyle:
… it’s getting out. And sometimes if a weird self doesn’t get out, the weird self-
Abby Wambach:
Gets in.
Glennon Doyle:
… gets dark. The weird self is like Lizzie used to say that she has a self that’s like a Border Collie. And if she doesn’t give it a job, it just destroys the house. If it’s not being constructive, it gets destructive. And there’s something there, right?
Amanda Doyle:
That’s right. Like, “Ignore me at your own peril. I invite you to.”
Glennon Doyle:
Right. I invite you to. And then you find yourself over the toilet.
Abby Wambach:
Maybe like the writing bit when you are in the writing mode, that’s a way of shepherding your own inner Border Collie.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. The writing is too heavy for me right now. I don’t want to do that. It doesn’t feel warm to me right now. So, I want to do something that feels like honoring of that wild, weird self. That’s lighter. So, anyway, that’s where I am. I haven’t figured it out yet.
Glennon Doyle:
When you said, Sissy, in the last one, because you probably feel, if I were my sister right now, I’m thinking all this talk about weird, wild, purplely, swirly selves is great, but you probably are like, how the hell are you going to get better? Do you feel worried about logistics at all?
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, you know me, never worried about logistics.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you have a spreadsheet yet for me?
Amanda Doyle:
I felt so sad when I found out that all this was going on while we were there, because of course, I have this. I know, and I’m not looking for you to be like, “No, this isn’t true.” But I know that in the perfect storm of 30 elements that led to this, having two young chaotic kids in your house for two weeks are a further element of that lack of predictability, lack of structure, all of it. That it’s all straw and camels at that point. And so, I felt badly about that.
Amanda Doyle:
And then I also felt like, “oh man, I was there and we’re supposed to be there for each other. And we’re supposed to be sharing the important things all the time.” And we weren’t even talking about any of this. And so, what’s the point of being there if we can’t actually be there for each other. And then I did notice, remember I kept being a little weird and kept checking in and being like, “I’m feeling strange.” And then I wonder if I really was picking up on some energetic vibe.
Glennon Doyle:
Of course. I mean, I remember sitting on the couch with you and you being like, “Is everything okay?” And do you remember a total vacancy? I just remember being like, “I have no idea.” It was a couch Cameron and Katie moment, just being like, “Everything is fine. Everything is fine.” Not even knowing it was just a get through the moment, get through the moment. I mean, what were we going to do to have a deep… That’s one way to look at it, and then all that is true.
Glennon Doyle:
The other way to look at it is right after that, after two years of swirly slide fading is when I finally landed, when I nailed the landing, right? When I was like, “Help. I need help. I need help. I need help.” Right? Now, the landing arms up. Probably not being able to say anything true during that week is what allowed me to figure out that I needed to change directions.
Glennon Doyle:
And in terms of what’s next, one thing I know for sure, when you begin again, is that after a little while in the landing, you have to start including people who have a more of a clue than you do because are experts.
Amanda Doyle:
See, that’s a good idea. I think that’s a good idea.
Glennon Doyle:
So, I do want to tell you that Abby took me to this acupuncturist. This is the first thing. I was like, “I’m not doing anything. I’m not ready to do anything. I’m not ready to go anywhere. I will know when it’s time.” She’s like, “Will you please just go to this acupuncturist with me?” So, I walk into this precious acupuncturist and she’s like, asked me to write down what my problem areas are.
Amanda Doyle:
And you’re like, “Do you have any loose leaf?”
Glennon Doyle:
Sister, I wrote down depression, anxiety, bulimia, eating disorders, mental illness, fatigue, anxiety. This was my list. She looks at at me, she goes, “Oh, okay. Well, we have a lot to do together.” Then she’s amazing. And halfway through the thing, she’s like, “Thank you.” I couldn’t even speak. I didn’t say any words. But she said some really, when you’re on the landing or just about to creep up on step one, anything, and that anyone says sounds like utter magic to you, for real. That’s like an amazing part of it. You can know this shit for 20 years and it sounds so fresh and new, and the exact key you needed to unlock the rest of your day. I think that I am going to find the teachers, that I need.
Abby Wambach:
The proper therapists, the proper people that will-
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t know who they are yet.
Abby Wambach:
And truly we’ve moved to a new place.
Glennon Doyle:
And we don’t know.
Abby Wambach:
So, we’re doing real research and trying to find the right people for you.
Glennon Doyle:
And we’re in LA. So, I know for sure as hell that there’s a lot-
Abby Wambach:
There’s people here.
Glennon Doyle:
… of mental health professionals here. But I do just want you to know and feel also that, I’m not just saying that mosaic making is going to save me. I also know that there will be experts involved and a real path.
Abby Wambach:
And let me just say, sissy, I know how you’re feeling in some ways, and it’s not our fault. It’s not our fault that we didn’t know. And it’s not your fault that you are here. It’s not my fault that I was here. I think that that’s a really important thing for any anybody out there who’s dealing with a partner or a friend, or a sister, or a mother, or somebody who’s going through something like this.
Abby Wambach:
So honey, I do have one question before we end here. I know that you are thinking about, you’re on that landing. And you’re thinking about taking that first step. What are some of the things that you’re feeling most nervous about?
Glennon Doyle:
So, we’re recording this today. And when the pod squad is hearing it right now, I will have already talked to the kids. I haven’t talked to the kids about this yet. And that is what I am most scared about because I don’t want to scare them. So, I don’t exactly know what I’m going to say, like what words I’m going to say, but I really, really believe in truth. I don’t just believe in it because it’s the right thing or because people should do it, or because truth is right and lies are wrong. That’s not what I mean. I believe in the power of the truth to make things better than they’ve ever been before. I believe in the truth like it’s a tool, like it’s the best possible tool you can use to build whatever you’re trying to build next.
Glennon Doyle:
And so, I guess, I feel like I’m willing to go through that conversation, which might scare the kids a little bit, knowing that in the long run, it will be what they need to get through their hard times, that they will never forget what it looks like to believe in the power of beginning again, right? That they will have a model for what it looks like to be in a place where you really just keep pretending that you have it all together and everybody even believes you have it all together. And actually people are even looking to you as telling them how to have it all together and still be like, “No, what matters is none of that. What matters is not that it looks like I’m okay, but that I actually am okay.” So, I feel scared about that, but I feel more sure about the power of truth than I feel scared about scaring them.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good. I don’t feel nervous about telling them at all.
Glennon Doyle:
Really?
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You have raised these beautiful children to hear truth. They will hear your truth, and you will teach them to tell the truth. So, it doesn’t matter what the content is.
Glennon Doyle:
Because at the end of the day, they’re human beings. I think that we worry, we have to protect them from all of the swirly weird humanness that we experience, but we forget that that is what they are.
Abby Wambach:
They’re going there too.
Glennon Doyle:
If we don’t reflect it to them, they will have shame about it. They are made up of the same exact stuff we are made up of.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
So, when we hide that part of ourselves from them, we’re not doing them any favors. Right?
Amanda Doyle:
You’re showing them how to manage their purple swirly, instead of trying to convince them you’re perfect and you don’t have it. And you’re showing them not that truth is this destination and arrival, and we spend the rest of our lives just being proud that we’ve arrived here. You’re showing them that truth is the path. That being honest at every step is the path where you end up having the life that you can have comfort in and peace in.
Abby Wambach:
And they’re people. They’re going to have people, whether it’s themselves or their friends, or their partners, that are going to be dealing with something very similar. And Chase is in college. Our girls are in high school and middle school. This is not something that they’ve never heard of. And this will help them in some way, shape or form. It will.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s just deciding once again to not do the style of parenting where you’re just like, “You’re safe. Everything is safe. Everything is perfect. You’re fine. We’re all fine. We’re all perfect.”
Abby Wambach:
I actually am going to disagree a little bit because I don’t think sharing this information tells somebody that they’re not safe. It just says, “Hey, here is the real world.” It’s like, “I’m going to share this information with you and I’m going to keep you as safe as I possibly can.”
Glennon Doyle:
And safe is just bullshit.
Abby Wambach:
I know. Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And it’s also like, let’s be honest, kids are really freaking smart. And they have probably picked up on something and they’re probably worried about something. And you sharing your truth is going to be at the end of the day, reassuring to them, because it’s something that you’re so not scared of ruining you or your family, that you’re sharing it with them. That is my definition disarming of it.
Glennon Doyle:
I think that’s what I mean by trusting the truth too. It’s like in so many of our relationships and our families, we have these situations that we think, if we don’t speak them, they’re not affecting everyone. And then our children feel it because they are energetic human beings and they feel something in the air, and then nobody is acknowledging it with words. And so, they feel like they stop trusting their own instincts. They feel like, “Oh, I guess, I’m just strong. I guess there’s something wrong with me.”
Amanda Doyle:
“I’m the only one feeling this. I’m the only one feeling this. I’m too sensitive.”
Glennon Doyle:
Right. And so putting words to what is really going on is a way of comforting.
Abby Wambach:
It’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
Everyone, it’s like, “No, no, no. What everyone is feeling is real. And here’s what it is. And it’s not you.” And it’s what we all probably needed as kids.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. And God forbid, I mean, I don’t think this is truth, but true, but God forbid, somebody heard.
Glennon Doyle:
Or knows.
Abby Wambach:
Or knows. And it’s like, they’re harboring that.
Glennon Doyle:
Family secrets, man, no good.
Abby Wambach:
It’s real. It’s a doozy. And you are fucking amazing. I just want to keep knowing you. And I want know all of this. This is going to make our family better. It will. I know it.
Amanda Doyle:
And I just thought of the reason why it’s so going to be stronger and better for your family is the same reason why I think you feel so confident sharing it with the world right now, which is that you are so confident that this isn’t shaking fundamentally anything you are or anything. Like for your family, for example, your perfection is not what makes your family strong. It’s your willingness to lean in to uncomfortable things, to hard things, that are the things that make your family as close to perfect as you can make it. And the same is true for you and the entirety of your work. I think it will be evidence of who you have always been and exactly the kind of family you’re trying to make, by being honest about what you’re going through.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
Bam.
Glennon Doyle:
To all of you listening, we love you so much. I hope that this is proof of how much we love you and trust you. And just this is a time where it’s probably a good idea to check in with all of ourselves, just our strong friends and our steady people in our lives. It’s just a time when the destabilization of the world can make us all feel a little lost and untethered. And helping tether each other down is probably a good thing to do this week. And telling somebody the truth of how we’re doing is probably a good thing this week. It is a hard thing to show ourselves to somebody, but we can do hard things.
Abby Wambach:
I’m going to speak for the pod squad here. Thank you, Glennon.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, babe. I love you.
Abby Wambach:
I love you too.
Glennon Doyle:
I love you, sissy.
Abby Wambach:
I love you, sissy.
Amanda Doyle:
I love you. Sister, I love you.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ll see you back here next week.
Amanda Doyle:
Bye.