Unexpected Joy: How do we redefine success so we can find joy?
December 21, 2021
Glennon Doyle:
We are back, you are back. We are all back. Here we are together again for We Can do Hard Things. It’s almost the end of the year, which is so wild.
Abby Wambach:
It’s insane.
Glennon Doyle:
And so we have been thinking-
Amanda Doyle:
Baffling.
Glennon Doyle:
About this year. We actually, sister and Abby, and I spent a lot of time together this past week and we’ve been talking so much about the unexpected joy of this year, which has been this podcast, this time together, this community, this completely new creative project for us.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s really led to us thinking about how this all began, about how this podcast, as We Can Do Hard Things podcast that has come to mean so much to us began. And so I was thinking a lot about how many months ago, and you know that I have no idea how many months ago. It could have been one or 13.
Abby Wambach:
Sissy, how many months has it been? Six?
Glennon Doyle:
When we started dreaming this thing up?
Amanda Doyle:
You first brought it up in February. And then I just skillfully avoided it, writing back about it for a solid month. So I just kept kind being like, “Look an Eagle,” to try to distract you from it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
But then you started, you became unrelenting about it in like, April.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So that makes perfect sense because I think it was right around this time last year that I just started feeling like something was off and wrong. And I felt off mission and untethered in my work. And this is because at that point we were just coming down or not even coming down yet from the Untamed extravaganza, which was just constant interviews, constant daily talking about the book, talking about to people I didn’t know, to interviewers, to just all these people that I did not know, talking about the work. And I just started to feel very untethered.
Glennon Doyle:
And so we went away for a couple days, and that is super helpful to me sometimes to get out of my house because when I’m in my house, I love puttering and house domestic things so much that I can distract myself very easily. I could wake up in the morning and move things around my house all day. And that’s my joy, just move things around.
Abby Wambach:
It’s unbelievable.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. So it’s fun for me and it’s my joy, but it’s also a way of staying distracted. So I don’t have to figure anything out.
Amanda Doyle:
Most people scroll on their phones, and you just scroll through your house.
Glennon Doyle:
I scroll through my house.
Abby Wambach:
I’ll catch her looking at a bookshelf, just staring at it. And I’m thinking, “Oh no, in a few hours, that whole bookshelf will be on the floor in front of me. And I will have to figure out how to put it back together differently.”
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. Because I’m an amazing starter of things and not a finisher, and every relationship needs a starter and a finisher because without the starters, nothing gets started without the finishers.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
All the books stay on the floor forever because the starter begins with a very hopeful version of herself. And then the starter gets tired.
Abby Wambach:
The reality of the project sets in.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. And that’s when you shine.
Abby Wambach:
That’s where I shine. I mean, look, it’s also just purely based out of wanting the house to be finished looking. Otherwise.
Glennon Doyle:
The starter doesn’t care.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Starter doesn’t really care.
Glennon Doyle:
So, we go away, I’m stuck with myself in this room, and I realize that the reason I feel untethered and I feel off mission is because I’ve been talking about my work to people I don’t know for a year. And what I love and what I do and what my work is, is to speak to my people about whatever the hell is happening right now.
Glennon Doyle:
And so I had this removal situation where when I started writing On The Block, it was me to you. Like you listener not you sister. Me to you every day. I’d wake up in my little house and I’d go into my, actually, it was a playroom back then. And I would just write my inner self to directly to you every day. And that is what I did.
Glennon Doyle:
And so what I realized is, oh, things have gotten bigger and wider and I need to get back to this small and directness. Right? So then I started to do in the morning meetings. Yep. To directly me to you. And that I used to do them on Instagram. And that was awesome except it wasn’t exactly right, because it was social media.
Glennon Doyle:
That was one of my challenges was like, wait a minute. I want to be having these really nuanced, tender, vulnerable conversations about the gray of life. And I’m hosting it, trying to host those kinds of conversations on social media. And there’s some beauty there. We all know that.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a very hard environment. And maybe it’s hard because it’s not designed for that. And never was. I felt like it wasn’t safe for me. I never felt fully safe there being my most vulnerable self. And the worst part was that I kept feeling like maybe this is not safe for my community. I’m inviting them to a place over and over again where I’m not sure actually it is the best place for them to share their most vulnerable selves.
Glennon Doyle:
So what was the solution? What was the solution to this? And then one day Abby had been saying, we should start a podcast forever. I thought podcasts at that point for boys talking about sports. I had never into a podcast, I had no idea what a podcast could be. Right?
Glennon Doyle:
And it was that few days away. I remember writing to you and thinking, what if we do it this way? What if a podcast is a way where we can actually have, first of all, we can see speak directly to our people again, in a way where we kind of create the rules for the community, where we create the vibe where we are able to be safe because it’s a little bit removed from social.
Amanda Doyle:
And there’s no audience for it. It felt like it was us having dinner, a really intimate conversation over dinner that we got to invite one person to the table. Every time and that, and just speak directly with that one person. So it felt more intimate. It’s not like you’re hosting a giant circus like social media sometimes feels. It feels like having dinner together.
Abby Wambach:
Well, and you’ve said this before about being a creative artist, so much of your work, you write a book, takes a long process to create, and then you go out and you have to talk about the art that you just made. It’s so over time that just becomes soul crushing.
Glennon Doyle:
It does.
Abby Wambach:
And so I think that what was really beautiful about this last few months, watching you come alive, again, by creating.
Glennon Doyle:
Directly.
Abby Wambach:
By creating something that was going directly to these pod squatters. And by also for you to be in the process of creation is life giving. For you. Right? I could tell you were more active. You were more upbeat. Your mood was more positive and yeah, you had bad days. But I think over the whole, it was a much more stabilized confrontation with your inner world because you weren’t at a… Your being needs to be creating.
Glennon Doyle:
And there’s a difference between creating and promoting. Exactly. And that’s a strange part of my job, which is make a thing and then go talk about the thing that’s right. So the point is, it’s so wild because here we are, we decided to do this thing where we would come back together. Just the three of us in this small way, sister and her where you’re in Bobby’s bedroom right now. We, yeah,
Amanda Doyle:
My son’s little window seat. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So you and I finally got out of the bathroom in the closet.
Abby Wambach:
We’ve had a few different places. Remember we started this when we were still living in Florida.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my gosh.
Abby Wambach:
And by the way, might I remind you, I wasn’t going to be a person that does this.
Glennon Doyle:
She wouldn’t even on the podcast.
Abby Wambach:
It was just you and Sissy at first. And then somehow you wrote me into it.
Amanda Doyle:
No, no I wasn’t… Nope. It was just supposed to be Glen at first, let the record show that it was Glen’s podcast with Glennon and then we got conscripted. Like it’s a damn army over.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God. I forgot about that, remember. I recorded a bunch of these. I started recording the podcast. The podcast was going to be just me and I was alone in my closet recording these things.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Glennon Doyle:
And they realized they sucked.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. They were pretty.
Glennon Doyle:
They were just sucky.
Abby Wambach:
Longwinded of you.
Glennon Doyle:
They were just boring. And I remember thinking, oh, okay. So this maybe a podcast is a conversation. And so the problem is that I’m alone.
Abby Wambach:
I’m doing this all wrong. I don’t know how to podcast.
Glennon Doyle:
So you two came in and that is such a better reflection of who I am now anyway is just who I am. Is this relationship really between the three of us. And so we did this little small thing and then freaking last week, somebody wrote to us and told us that Apple had decided that our little We Can Do Hard Things podcast is the number one podcast of the entire year. We were like, wait, “What?”
Abby Wambach:
And we were actually all together at the time that news came out and I just remember being like, wow.
Glennon Doyle:
What? And then I felt sweaty because I was like, wait, that means other people are listening to it. That’s scary what have we said.
Amanda Doyle:
A lot. I mean, number one, new podcast of 2021 with Apple top podcast with year Amazon, it’s on all of the lists. And to me it just shows how much we really all have a deep need to be in conversation and to laugh and to connect and to just tell the truth and how much we aren’t doing that.
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, it’s not like a way of life. I wasn’t doing it before doing it here. And I think that it’s just beautiful to me. And also how amazing it is that people… The threads that run among people, that you would have no idea just from walking out in the world. When you say something and throw it out there and you’re like, this is odd, but this is what I’m thinking if I didn’t care that you would think I was crazy for saying it and people are like, also me, also me.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. You too. Yes. It makes us feel suddenly like we’re all stuck in these little weird worlds. And then when we share our weird world, we realize it’s not a weird world at all. It’s just the world. This is all of our internal worlds. And then that process over and over again, what I have learned through this is that then we just feel more cozy and brave.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, remember the bathroom episode for me going into bathrooms, the anxiety.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, yes.
Abby Wambach:
Do you know what’s completely subsided?
Glennon Doyle:
Remind them of that.
Abby Wambach:
As a reminder, I have pretty much since I cut my hair short, have been getting confused for being in the wrong bathroom when I’m in a woman’s bathroom. I definitely present more masculine. My hair is short, I’m tall. I’m very muscular. Or at least I was for many, many years of my life. And ever since I talked about it on this podcast, and I heard from people about how this happens to them too.
Abby Wambach:
It made me feel like, oh, not only that I’m not alone here, but like, oh, I think that it’s my responsibility to also get over it because I’m just going to carry this with me for the rest of my life. If I don’t just like get over it.
Glennon Doyle:
And you don’t deserve that.
Abby Wambach:
And stop letting other people have that personal power over me. So that I feel like in a weird way, I’m like this, a leader in the world. It’s like, oh, I’ve got to get myself over this so that I can prove that it’s possible.
Glennon Doyle:
And then one day you came home and this was just a few weeks after… We talked about it on the podcast. We sat down upstairs on the living room couch. You said something weird is happening. I’m not getting upset in bathrooms anymore. And it’s not that anything had changed. People were still reacting the same way.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, yeah. They were still giving me the weird looks the whole bit. And also I have to remember when I’m in there because my MO is to get in there and to do my business. And literally, probably from some people’s perspectives, like run.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, you do.
Abby Wambach:
I’m running out of the bathroom. Because I don’t want to freak anybody out. And now I’m just like, I’m taking my time
Glennon Doyle:
And it was just the sharing.
Abby Wambach:
It was just the sharing.
Glennon Doyle:
And the hearing back the me toos that changed my entire experience. And that’s how my whole life is. I feel less scared all of the time. Not scared, but less scared all of the time. All the days. Because I know that my experience is not unique.
Abby Wambach:
Well, it’s this whole idea of once you say the thing that you might feel ashamed of because I think I was carrying shame around with it. Once I set it out loud, it just completely takes away this shame thing.
Glennon Doyle:
So what we want to say is these awards have been pretty cool. But what we know is that we are going to stick to what is our job and our mission, which is no matter how wide the ever get, we are going to stay deep. We are going to stay small. We are going to keep talking directly to you about our lives and our hearts and the truth. And if you keep showing up, we’re going to keep showing up too.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. Sissy?
Amanda Doyle:
That’s exactly right. And I think that this is a full time at the end of the year to be not only thinking about this whole year, but thinking about next year and the conversations that we want to be having. And we definitely want this to be a conversation.
Amanda Doyle:
So we want to hear from everyone in the pod squad of what you want to talk about and what matters to you and what you’re struggling with and all of that. So I think that we should keep those ideas coming because this is a fluid conversation and we want to be responsive to what is on your minds too.
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s talk about what the actual impact that this pod has made in our lives. Like what have you learned?
Abby Wambach:
Personally?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Oh, what have you learned about yourself or what would you say has had the biggest impact on you from this?
Abby Wambach:
Are you asking me?
Glennon Doyle:
I am.
Abby Wambach:
Can I be honest?
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Abby Wambach:
Well, okay. So I think one of the things that I was afraid of, and this is kind of why I was a little bit at first letting you kind of do it with sister, not letting you, but just like being very okay. Being on the periphery it’s because I didn’t know how we would work together on something that was your creative baby.
Abby Wambach:
Now we work a lot together. We do. Speaking events together. We are out in the world together. We have worked together. So this is not like the first time but this would be the first time I was going to be kind of jumping on board with your creative vision.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Because usually we’re doing stuff for other people.
Abby Wambach:
For other people. And so I get to show up as myself and you get to show up as yourself. I’m not trying to make you boss happy.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
I’m not trying to please you boss. I’m trying to be Abby and be wife. And I think that that was really nerve wracking for me at first. And it’s interesting because we spent this last week together and one of the things that I have been understanding, I’ve developed a little bit of anxiety over the last couple of weeks or months by doing this, not by doing this, but I’ve realized what about the last few months has changed and this is the thing that has changed the most.
Abby Wambach:
And so I’ve been thinking a little bit about it and what I think I have put my finger on, correct me if you think that I’m wrong here, but you both have a process of how to achieve best results for yourselves in creativity.
Abby Wambach:
And Glennon I know what your process is. And Sissy I think I’m pretty aware of what your process is and basically what your process is to create this beautiful idea but also be as prepared as you possibly can be prepared because at that point then you feel free to be yourself.
Abby Wambach:
And I’ve never operated that way. And I don’t mean to say this in a flippant way. And not that I under prepare but that I rely on to show up as my present self and that is what my magic is. I have found. But watching you two kind of walk through this creative process and seeing how you both-
Amanda Doyle:
Spend hours and hours preparing for everything.
Abby Wambach:
It has made me feel insecure. Ah, it has made me feel woefully insecure. So when I sit down in this seat and I put my mouth towards this microphone, I think I’m the worst one. I’m the weak link. And that is a very strange place for me to be in.
Amanda Doyle:
What a foreign concept to you. You’re like, what?
Abby Wambach:
Actually the last week since this realization of how this anxiety has manifested, I’ve been thinking about that. What does weak link mean to you and all of this? And it’s like, oh no, no, no, no. This is a team. If I’m given the space to be self, to show up completely as myself, I will thrive.
Glennon Doyle:
In your way.
Abby Wambach:
In my way.
Glennon Doyle:
Because it’s not just you. I mean, I think you’re being sweet to say, to not bring up my part in making you feel contributing to your insecurity because why don’t you tell them about the time you had to sit me to down and ask me to not be so mean with my eyes during the podcast. There is a vision.
Glennon Doyle:
There’s a vision every podcast, what everyone needs to know podcast squatters is that there is a vision for the beginning, middle and end of this. It feels like it’s just a conversation. It’s like when I’m on stage and people like, oh my God, you’re so natural. I could never just come up with all of that. And I’m like, neither could I.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ve practicing this. I write it. I write it. I write it, I write it. Then I record it. Then I speak it into a phone. Then I spend hours listening back to myself on a phone with my dogs. I have this vision of the episode. Right? And then there’s a through line and I get very nervous when you don’t stay on the thread. And you’re not a threader.
Abby Wambach:
And so here’s the thing, I noticed early on in those first couple of episodes that I was more present on in contributing to that anytime I would go on a tangent, the eyeballs of my wife would get big. And then she would also point to the screen where I have some notes. She has some notes and she would make a reference. She would do a circular motion.
Glennon Doyle:
Wrap it up,.
Amanda Doyle:
Wrap it up Wambach.
Abby Wambach:
Giving me the energy because she can’t say it.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. So pod squatters, you’re just right there listening. You can only hear me. So you think I’m sweet. You can’t see my-
Abby Wambach:
You are sweet.
Glennon Doyle:
Laser eyes [crosstalk 00:21:49] into my life.
Abby Wambach:
A grander plan. And I know this, so of course I oblige in those moments.
Glennon Doyle:
And you get nervous and I make you nervous.
Abby Wambach:
Yes. And so it forced me to have to have a conversation with you. On behalf of myself. And though sister never told me, I knew that she was thinking the same thing. I had to have a conversation with you about the difference of process that I have. And how sometimes when you’re so worrying about that thread, that line that we’re supposed to be maintaining throughout the conversation that it’s stifling my ability to actually have conversation.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s steals your magic. Because we have different magic. And marriage is hard because it’s combining two different magics and respecting each other’s magic. Because I will tell you that it is a old story and it is not true. But the old story for me is people who don’t prepare say that their magic is presence, but really they’re just lazy and don’t want to prepare.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh my God. Please see every person who has ever… Every best man or matron of honor, who has ever stood up at a wedding and say, you know what? I’m just going to speak from the heart. And I’m like, you are an asshole. Failed to prepare for your best friend who is standing up there on their most prepared day of their life and deserve your best.
Amanda Doyle:
And you just want to speak from the heart. How about some index cards? How about a plan people? So yes I operate very much from that story.
Abby Wambach:
I’ve spoken from the heart at weddings and crushed. People came up to me after sister and were like, that was the best wedding speech I’ve ever heard. I’m like, I know.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So the thing is I’m saying that I don’t know if sister’s there yet, but I am saying that I understand that part of that is just an old story. And so pod squader sweep, I’m so worried now about anyone who’s ever stood up and said, they’re speaking from the heart. We’re not saying you were wrong. We’re saying, well, you were wrong probably.
Abby Wambach:
For you. You were wrong for you.
Glennon Doyle:
For me.
Abby Wambach:
For you and for sister. Sister, and you would never be able to do that comfort wise.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, I’ll say it this way. I would only be able to speak from the heart if I knew that I had spent the time inventorying my heart for what would be of highest value in honoring that person.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
And for me, because my love language is helping. I view it as you have failed to take the time and consideration to know what would actually be of highest value to that person you’re going against what happens to be in your heart.
Glennon Doyle:
I actually think it’s super fascinating because it speaks to everything. It speaks to how we show up for everything. Like do we just… I for one I had to because I ended up in this situation somehow where I’m constantly having to show up to do scary things like speaking on podcasts to millions of people being on stages, being on whatever, and also being an anxious person.
Glennon Doyle:
I used to have different phases where I was like, okay, phase one prepare. Prepare for whatever’s about to happen. Prepare with all of your little might. Phase two, dread it stress about it. Rue the day you were born. Phase three-
Amanda Doyle:
Think all the 10 ways you can cancel.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
And pray for a monsoon.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. Then phase three, show up for the thing. Okay. So now-
Abby Wambach:
Sounds horrible.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I have over the decade and a half, I’ve been doing this mostly ruled out phase two. And then when I get to the thing, I have this deal that with God, that’s like, okay, I showed up your turn, you show up. And then it is a relinquishment of all anxiety and of all few past preparation. I did it all but now I’m not in my head trying to remember all of it. It’s just poof. And now I’m present because of the preparation.
Amanda Doyle:
You are able to be unlocked when you’re prepared. So your preparedness unlocks who you are. And Abby’s showing up present without the burden of thinking there is like 14 things I must say. I want to say them. That is what unlocks her magic is that she’s fully present and can be respond to it. So there isn’t a right way. There’s just a right way for you.
Glennon Doyle:
I do feel that no matter who we are and what we’re doing, what I have learned is if I’m going to keep showing up in any way, it’s big or small, there has to be this, and I would recommend this for everybody listening. There has to be this insistence, this relentless reminder and insistence that whatever way you is best for you to show up that when you do, and if you do what you have in that moment will be enough.
Glennon Doyle:
And that is the only way I can continue to do this work in any way. And by the way, I always think I’m tricking myself because I’m like, there’s no way that it’s going to be enough. But like, let’s just decide that it is.
Abby Wambach:
Well, and that enoughness has to be decided from every individual because I can’t take on your preparation strategy and use it as my own because then I will always feel completely unprepared and that I have not prepared enough and that this is going to go horribly wrong. And then just because of that-
Amanda Doyle:
Well, and it does. Can you please tell the story of the one time that you tried to do glad it’s preparation style? Because I still pee in my pants when I think about that story.
Abby Wambach:
I can’t believe I’m saying this story.
Glennon Doyle:
Just tell the people.
Abby Wambach:
The fireside chat story.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I’m sweating already.
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, this is when I was trying to make you like me.
Amanda Doyle:
You were trying to do your best for her.
Glennon Doyle:
I was trying to [crosstalk 00:28:08].
Amanda Doyle:
That’s what you’re trying to do.
Abby Wambach:
I just have to preface that this is the biggest bomb of my life, for sure. Professionally speaking this was the worst performance I have ever in my life had. So I was asked to come and participate and do this speech a couple years back.
Glennon Doyle:
It was for Times Up. Right.
Abby Wambach:
It was a Times Up event.
Glennon Doyle:
Right after Times Up had all happened after.
Abby Wambach:
They did this conference. And they were like, Hey, why don’t you come and give… I had just done the Barnard commencement speech and Wolf Pack book had yet to come out. And so they were excited that I was going to come and rile them up and excite them in all my feminist glory ways.
Abby Wambach:
And so Glennon I brought you, we flew in at the time to LA and the night before there was a dinner and Glennon looked around and she saw tons of fancy people.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I saw sons, tons of women, activists, people. And people that were in the zone of women and activism. I just looked around and realized, oh, shit. This is really important. We got back to the room and I just started spinning. I just started losing it because I realized what I believed was that, whatever you’re going to say to these people is going to change the trajectory of the world.
Abby Wambach:
Yes, that’s right. And so that night I had my questions because I was going to be in conversation with this woman in a fireside chat model. Right? So it was just her and I up there, she would ask me a question and I would answer it.
Glennon Doyle:
Emphasis on the chat.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Chat, chat.
Abby Wambach:
And so Glennon starts to write down because she wanted to practice some of my answers like, hey, well, oh, here’s a question like what would you say? And I would give, and she’s like, all right. So here’s what I would say. And these are the three points I would make during the answer of this question. I’m like, okay, great.
Abby Wambach:
So she writes this out and-
Glennon Doyle:
In essay form.
Abby Wambach:
In essay form. And immediately I start to develop a kind of anxiety. Because y’all don’t know this, I have real memorizing anxiety. I have a blockage. I cannot do it. And when your wife who we were this is like still new. We were very new at the time. When your wife is writing down all of this stuff for me to regurgitate, I was like, you know what Well, we’ll make me feel a little bit better is if we get these all down and just print it out so I can look it over and just have it. I’ll just have it.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ll just have it. In case I need to reference it beforehand. Right? So I gave you like-
Abby Wambach:
It was really good. It was so good. Very good.
Glennon Doyle:
It was like 10 pages.
Abby Wambach:
It was another amazing commencements speeches. It’s what it was.
Glennon Doyle:
It was like five commencement speeches.
Abby Wambach:
The problem is, again, I have struggled to memorize. So I brought the paper up to the podium.
Glennon Doyle:
I think like Natalie Portman was in the front row. Like all the times up lawyers, politicians, everybody, Amy [inaudible 00:31:21], everybody.
Abby Wambach:
Honey-
Glennon Doyle:
In this room.
Abby Wambach:
We get it. We get it.
Glennon Doyle:
In this room.
Abby Wambach:
There were a lot of people there and this is like the worst bomb in my life. And so she starts asking me questions, the moderator. And I forget everything. I forget. And so I pull paper, I pull the paper off my pocket and I was like, you know what? I’m just going to… I made some notes. So I start in a fireside chat. I start reading-
Amanda Doyle:
An intimate conversation.
Abby Wambach:
Glennon’s words because Glennon’s in audience. And I want to say the words correctly.
Glennon Doyle:
The worst part was she was trying pretend she wasn’t reading it. The lady would say, so what do you think about this? And Abby would act like she was off the cuff. She’d go, well. And then she’d read it verbatim.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, it was so fucking embarrassing. And so this moment couldn’t end quick enough. And I sit down people’s clapped.
Glennon Doyle:
You leave the stage.
Abby Wambach:
And I sit down and I just… Next to Glennon I couldn’t even look at her. And I was like, well, that was just the worst thing that ever happened to me in my life. And I can’t wait to get out of here. We need to leave this place as soon as possible. The lesson here folks is to just not ever leave yourself behind. Is to not ever leave yourself behind and-
Glennon Doyle:
Do it your way. But I was trying to help.
Abby Wambach:
I know, I know you were. I know, but you were helping in the way that would help you. This is our big problem in our marriage is that when you help people, you actually have to help them. And the way that will help them best, not in the way that it would help you best.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, retweet in a relationship, you have to actually help them in a way that helps them instead of how you wish it should help them.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So it’s not treat others as you wish to be treated.
Abby Wambach:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s not.
Amanda Doyle:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s treat others as they wish to be treated.
Abby Wambach:
As they wish and need to be treated. Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like we’ve been talking for absolutely ever. So maybe we should get to a couple questions from our sweet pod squaders. We’re going to hear from Francesca.
Francesca:
Hi, my name is Francesca. I am a middle school teacher. And my question is what is your opinion or advice on how to teach children who are not your children how to do hard things? I feel like as the years go on the students that I teach are less and less willing to even attempt hard things. The minute that it gets difficult, they want to just shut down or quit or find an easy way out.
Francesca:
And I try to motivate them through pep talk and some exercises to them to persevere. But if you have any additional ideas, I would love that. Thank you so much and have wonderful day.
Glennon Doyle:
Love it, Francesca. Thank you for being a teacher. I was a teacher. That’s how I started my life and I just have such a deep, deep love and respect for teachers. So thank you. It makes perfect sense. That kiddos right now would struggle with seeing perseverance as something that they can commit to because the memo that our parenting generation got was like don’t let your kids struggle. The second, your kid struggles, rush and fix it for them.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what we were told. That’s that’s what we believed was good parenting. Right? Protect your kids from pain, protect your kids from struggle. Don’t let them hurt. And so because we have fixed and fixed and fixed and rushed in every time things get hard for our kids. Me for sure included what we accidentally taught them was that they can’t do hard things because if they could, if we believed that they could do hard things, we wouldn’t keep rushing in and fixing it.
Glennon Doyle:
So what they learn is, oh, I guess I wasn’t meant to do this hard thing because this is when the older people swoop in and saved me from it. Right?
Glennon Doyle:
So it makes sense. I wouldn’t for sure, not say it’s not these kiddos fault. We just haven’t allowed them to sit and struggle enough to let them figure out that they can in fact overcome struggle. I mean, I love the idea of just changing what success means for kiddos. We have one little one who when she started playing soccer, every game, once that her team started losing or if she did anything wrong, less than perfect on, she would stand on the field and just cry.
Abby Wambach:
And sometimes it wasn’t even about losing or it was when the intense pressure built up.
Glennon Doyle:
Yep. It would just, we, Abby would go uh-oh and we-
Abby Wambach:
She’s losing it.
Glennon Doyle:
And she would stand on the field and stop moving and just bawl. Okay? Now.
Abby Wambach:
Because that comes crying in public, crying on the sports field comes with its own embarrassment. Right? So she was stunned.
Glennon Doyle:
She was stunned by her and crying and then the cycle of trying and then-
Amanda Doyle:
Stunned by herself.
Glennon Doyle:
And then of course, Abby wouldn’t let me rush and get her because that would worsen everything. So we would just have to sit there and she would bawl. Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
So is the game still like actively happening around her rushing?
Abby Wambach:
It’s going.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
It was happening.
Glennon Doyle:
And then the embarrassment from the crying, but you know you can’t stop crying once you started. So one day we talked to her and she shared sort of with us about how it just felt like the end of the world when they were losing or when something went wrong. Like it just felt like the end of the world because that was failure.
Glennon Doyle:
And so we had this long talk with her where we decided, okay, so honey, we’re going to move the goal post for you. We’re going to change what the idea is of success and failure for you during your game. Okay? Success for you is not if your team wins. Success is not if you make no mistakes. Success for you is when things start to go wrong.
Abby Wambach:
And they will.
Glennon Doyle:
And they will. When you start losing, when you miss a ball, when you, whatever happens terrible. And she said, I’m not going to cry. And we said, oh no, no, no, no, no crying is fine. Success is going to be when the thing goes wrong, if you start crying, you’re just going to keep moving.
Abby Wambach:
You can’t stop playing.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re going to cry and play. That is raging success for this family. Okay? If you screw up the game and you burst out crying on the field, but you keep running, we are going to be wildly proud of you.
Abby Wambach:
That is the biggest win in our family that can ever happen.
Glennon Doyle:
None of us just keeps-
Abby Wambach:
Just keep swimming, just keep swimming.
Glennon Doyle:
Just keep swimming. And we still say it a decade later. We still say just cry and play cry and play and cry and play. So I don’t know basically what we were trying to teach her is the struggle is the success. It’s not the failure. It’s not a sign of failure. The feeling of the struggle, the hard and staying in it is the success. Is the win, which is kind of the same for a kid who’s in the classroom with Francesca and is like trying to do a math problem. And it’s not coming easy for them or trying to do cursive. And it’s not coming easy for them.
Glennon Doyle:
And their brain tells them because we have accidentally told them failure, failure, failure, as opposed to feeling the heart and being like, oh, this is the good stuff. This is where if I keep going, this is where I make progress. This is where I learn.
Amanda Doyle:
Right. I have a little bit of a different perspective on the motivation thing because my struggle with it is different with my son’s ADHD. I think for me, I’ve always viewed motivation as like you sit down and you continue working on this thing until it’s done. How can you just tap out?
Amanda Doyle:
We’re going to sit down and we’re going to do it. And it led to a lot of struggles with us, kids with ADHD. She said, it’s very hard to get them to what did she say? Persevere through what gets difficult. And it is very typical for kids like my son to have very low frustration thresholds. That’s a very typical sign.
Amanda Doyle:
So what may look like early copying out of something thing is actually a reflection of my actual threshold for frustration is lower than somebody else’s threshold with frustration. And it actually, ironically, I always viewed it as lazy. I mean, with apologies to myself and my family, like that’s just was my perspective on it. You’re giving up so early. You don’t care about doing good things.
Amanda Doyle:
But it’s actually the clinical word for a low frustration threshold is perfectionism. Which blew my mind because I was looking around and I was like, I don’t see any evidence of perfectionism around here, but it’s because I am so afraid that I can’t do this perfectly, that I am cutting bait before I even get thwarted in it at all.
Amanda Doyle:
So there’s that piece of it. I think it’s viewing it as perfectionism instead of laziness and helping them work through to that. And then I think the other part of it is that we would sit down and I would say like, we are not getting up until this is done.
Amanda Doyle:
We are going to learn to have some perseverance and be motivating and get through things. And after a few times, and he would just looked at me one time, he just looked at me and he said, my body needs to get up and run. And I realized in this moment that I have been teaching these kids over and over and over again, since I were babies to trust their bodies and trust themselves.
Amanda Doyle:
And I was letting my biases about what being motivated looks like, what success looks like, what being willing to lean into the hard looks like that I was making him deny the needs of his body. And so we just have a new understanding of that. When we are doing something, we’re like, you have six minutes of this and then you’re going to run for five minutes and then we’re going to do six minutes. And then you’re going to run for five minutes. Because for me, that’s just as important that he understands himself that way, just like my daughter knows she doesn’t have to hug and kiss any relative that she doesn’t want to.
Amanda Doyle:
Just like, it’s no one in my family has to clean their plate. Continuing to turn into their bodies is going to be how they’ll trust themselves to know that they can push through things.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s turned out to be the theme of this episode. It reminds me of me trying to help Abby according to my own mind and spirit and body needs. And love is not that. Right? Love is like seeing.
Amanda Doyle:
Help him as he would like to be helped and the way he can be helped is to work through it and then do what his body needs and then work through it and do what his body needs.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. So let’s jump right into our next right thing. Cause we had an awesome question that we’re going to use for our next right thing.
Erica:
My name is Erica and I know we can do hard things, but the easy thing, I cannot figure out how to leave a rating for your podcast. I like it. So I would like to leave a rating and I can’t figure it out. Help me do an easy thing. Thank you. Goodbye.
Glennon Doyle:
Erica is our matron Saint of the fact that we can do hard things, but we cannot do easy things.
Abby Wambach:
Y’all I didn’t even know that you could rate this.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. It’s a big deal to rate because-
Abby Wambach:
How do you do it?
Glennon Doyle:
It helps us in some way that I’m not sure what it is. And I don’t know how to rate. Do you know sister? I bet you do.
Amanda Doyle:
I do. I do. So every platform is different. So you’ll have to go to wherever you listen to your podcast, it might be Apple. It might be Spotify. It might be Amazon. You can do one where you just do the number of stars and you go to look at the reviews and it has all the stars that you click on the number of stars that you like. Or there’s actually a place, a link that says, submit a review.
Amanda Doyle:
You scroll down to where you’re looking at everybody else’s reviews, click submit a review. You can write one up and submit it.
Glennon Doyle:
But only do that if you love our podcast, if you don’t love our podcast, forget everything we just said and move right along.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Glennon Doyle:
And while we’re doing this for the next right thing, go ahead and leave a review in a rating that would be amazing. And also, can you all please write to us or leave a voicemail or just contact us and let us know what do you want us to talk about as a community in 2022? What kind of topics? What kind of guests? What kind of thoughts ideas? Any of it.
Glennon Doyle:
We want this to be a conversation. Not just us talking at you. We want to hear what you want this to be in this coming year because we are committed. We are going to keep showing up in 2022. We don’t know what kind of year it’s going to be in general. Human beings are not making predictions anymore.
Amanda Doyle:
But we do know it’s going to be hard. So we’re on theme. Okay? We don’t know much, but it’ll be hard and it’ll be together. Okay? Right. We’ll the phone number is (747) 200-5307. That’s (747) 200-5307. We love ya.
Glennon Doyle:
We can do hard things. See you back here soon. Bye.
Glennon Doyle:
I give you Tish Milton and Brandi Carlile.
Glennon Doyle:
We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey or wherever you get podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast If you really liked it. If you didn’t, don’t worry about it. It’s fine.