First Ever Live Q & A with the Pod Squad!
December 9, 2021
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.
Abby Wambach:
That was a different octave, babe.
Glennon Doyle:
I know. I was trying out something new. Did you hate it?
Abby Wambach:
No, I just… I wanted to… it was up there.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, it was up there. I’m up there. Okay, here’s the deal with today. I’m very excited because today’s the day that we all get to hear more, directly from our Get Untamed event and directly from our Pod Squad. So-
Abby Wambach:
My favorite.
Glennon Doyle:
This is the time that the voicemails, that you all sent, came to life. Because in the live event, when 13,000 of you were listening to us record the podcast, watching us record the podcast, your little faces came up on the screen, and I got to see your little perfect faces ask us the questions. So, you’re going to hear that to a day on this podcast. You’re going to hear your own fellow Pod Squadders ask their own perfect questions, okay? But first, before we jump into this, I want to talk to my sweet sister about a recent experience that she had with Adele. And I will tell you that you weren’t actually with Adele-
Abby Wambach:
I don’t know this story. What is going on?
Glennon Doyle:
Do you not know this story?
Abby Wambach:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Amanda Doyle:
Please, let there have been an actual experience with Adele, but there was not. There was my experience with myself, listening to Adele, which is-
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
… I think, 99.9% of people’s experiences with Adele, right?
Glennon Doyle:
To be fair, that’s how we experience Adele, right?
Amanda Doyle:
Right, right. Well, Adele experienced you. Remember when she read Untamed, and then she posted on her Instagrams and saying how it split her open, it made her feel alive, and then I died 1,000 deaths of joy?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I did too. I woke up early one morning-
Abby Wambach:
Well, because England is earlier than us.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. And checked my phone-
Amanda Doyle:
In so many ways.
Glennon Doyle:
… because I say that I keep my phone outside of my bedroom so that I can be Zen, but I never do. Not one time. Not in my life. So I woke up, opened my phone and saw 49,000 trillion gazillion notifications because Adele had posted the… not just a little bit, the crap out of Untamed. She said it shook her soul and all of these things. And it was wild because Abby and I, when we were falling in love, Adele was one of the soundtracks to our… Abby tells you that her great love is me, but tell them who your great love is.
Abby Wambach:
Okay. Well, can I be actually honest?
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Yeah. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Adele has gotten me through. I feel like I’m very similar in age, so all of her albums, 19, 21, she helped me grow and age well. And I went through some hardcore breakups before we met. And she was maybe better than all of my therapists combined. I don’t know. Her voice is something completely otherworldly. And I know that, even the other day, when she just released 30, Glennon came up to me. She said, “You don’t love Adele more than you love me, right?”
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, you’re not supposed to say that.
Abby Wambach:
And I said, “Of course not, but I love her voice.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, for sure.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t know Adele, Adele. I would love to meet you in person one day. But the truth is, her posting that, she’s a national treasure-
Glennon Doyle:
International.
Abby Wambach:
Pretty much worldwide. She’s an international treasure. But in her home country of England, when they saw her tweet, every woman in England went out and bought Untamed. It was unbelievable.
Glennon Doyle:
And then, all the British tabloids started-
Abby Wambach:
Which are the worst.
Glennon Doyle:
… writing about us, which was real wild for a week.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Holy cow. Okay. So, I-
Abby Wambach:
But babe, to be clear, I love you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, thanks.
Abby Wambach:
Okay?
Glennon Doyle:
Thanks.
Abby Wambach:
You’re the one only one for me.
Glennon Doyle:
Thanks.
Abby Wambach:
You’re the one that I want.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m still on the fence. I’m still on the fence as you and Adele.
Abby Wambach:
But wait, tell us about your situation, sissy.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Tell us, sister. Sorry. I hijacked that.
Amanda Doyle:
I was redoing my second pass of The Journal and filling it out. Some people might only need to do this once; I think I’m going to have to do it semi-annually. The Feel It All section, where you list all the songs, and you have this model where it’s: “blank reminds me of blank and makes me feel blank,” and you’re supposed to be getting into your emotions with the songs, it was a really cool section. And I was listening to 30 when it came out. And I had this crazy moment where I was listening to Easy On Me, which is such a beautiful song, for the 1000th time. But I listened to it, for some reason, as if it was me singing to myself.
Amanda Doyle:
And I’m telling you that I really think that everyone should re-listen to that song to yourself because I was a puddle. I just had a different reaction to every single stanza of it. If you haven’t heard the song yet, first of all, great news for you, because the best is ahead for you. But the chorus is: “go easy on me, baby. I was still a child. Didn’t get the chance to feel the world around me. I had no time to choose what I chose to do. So, go easy on me.” And it was just such a release.
Amanda Doyle:
Really, I think in some cases, what we want the most is for our own selves to go easy on us. And the “ain’t no gold in this river that I’ve been washing my hands in forever,” that for me, is the story. We talked about, in the last episode, the loop in your head, the stories you tell yourself. It’s like I’ve just been washing myself in this forever. And there’s no gold here. And then the part, oh my God. The line: “I had good intentions and the highest hopes. But I know right now it probably doesn’t even show.” It’s like all of the dreams we had when we were little, all of the stuff we swore we were going to get right and we haven’t exactly figured out. And maybe we’re never going to figure it out. And maybe we still deserve to go easy on ourselves.
Abby Wambach:
Beautiful. Freaking beautiful.
Amanda Doyle:
Anyway, I think everyone should give the gift of that. Not asking for forgiveness or grace from other people, but maybe asking and giving yourself grace.
Abby Wambach:
Mm.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, now Adele is my favorite person on earth because anybody who gives my sissy, the gift of going easy… I’m obsessed with Adele now. I worship Adele. I can’t believe she did that for you. Also, I’d like to point out, sister, that allowing art into your life, carving out some time, and I know you only did it because it was your homework because it was in your journal-
Amanda Doyle:
It was my homework. It was in my journal. Page 235: “Listen to some music and feel things.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And if you’re getting a suspicion, if you’re listening and you haven’t gotten The Journal, that it’s not actually a journal; it’s an intense experiment. They wouldn’t let me call it that because maybe people don’t want to buy intense experiments. But it’s not just a journal. That’s so beautiful. Thank you, Adele, for giving my sissy that gift.
Abby Wambach:
And just the gift of your voice to the rest of us, too. It’s just, oh my goodness.
Glennon Doyle:
And sis, that’s what I want for you, more than anything in the world. For you to go easy on you.
Abby Wambach:
Yes. Peace.
Glennon Doyle:
And everybody listening. You, sweet Pod Squadder, I’m talking to you. You think I’m not, but it’s you. You’re the one I’m talking to. Go easy on you. The younger you, the you from 20 years ago, the you from 50 years ago, the you from yesterday. Every single version of yourself, using what exactly you had in the moment, to do the best you could, with what you knew and who you were. And then, as Maya Angelo-
Amanda Doyle:
And that’s what you’re still doing.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what we’re doing. As Dr. Maya Angelou said, “When we know better, we do better.” But we forgive every… and not even just forgive; embrace and love. Adore. Adore-
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
… every single version of ourselves that survived.
Abby Wambach:
All of those little scars are part of what makes us up. And I think that Glennon, I learned that so much from you, in terms of the shamelessness that you take into your everyday life. The only way I would’ve believed it was possible is by witnessing it every single day for five straight years. That you can actually live a shame-free life. And you do that. And you just make it possible for me to actually start doing that one day, so thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I think I’m a good example of, if I can forgive myself, because I’ve fucked up a lot. I’ve hurt a lot of people. I was an addict for a long time. Sometimes flashes of things come back to me of things that I did. And I actually have to shake my head. I shake my head until it’s gone. Because when you were drunk for a very long time, or I was a food addict since I was 10. So, I just think it messes with your memories a lot. But every once in a while, something will come on the periphery that I actually don’t know if it’s real or not, but I think it is. And I just shake it. Shake it off. “Shake it off” means something different to me.
Abby Wambach:
Thank you, Taylor Swift. So this is a whole episode on singing.
Amanda Doyle:
Full circle, full circle.
Abby Wambach:
Adele and Taylor.
Abby and Glennon:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
But I do, fiercely, fiercely forgive all of the previous versions of myself who did the best that she could.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, I can’t wait for that day.
Amanda Doyle:
And I think just as important, is the current version.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Because we can all look back and it’s, “Before and after. Oh, I was jacked up, and I’m okay.” The hardest thing for me is the current version. I have plenty of former ones that I’m, “RIP. Nice try.” But then, even just now, the today version of me. When you’re-
Abby Wambach:
It’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
… I had the highest hopes and know right now it probably doesn’t even show. I’m still trying. And I still have to forgive the five minutes ago me.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes!
Abby Wambach:
Ugh.
Amanda Doyle:
Me right now.
Glennon Doyle:
Or how about, even better? If you want to get to level-
Abby Wambach:
Are we going meta?
Glennon Doyle:
… level A. No. Highest level is forgiving this self in 20 hours. Listen, I know I’m about to fuck up. I’m going to wish I had this perfect family dinner tonight, and I’m sweet. But actually, I’m going to snap at you. I’m going to whatever. And guess what? I forgive myself for that.
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Glennon Doyle:
In advance.
Abby Wambach:
That’s amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
In advance. Okay. Let’s jump back into our Get Untamed conversation in here and see and love on our amazing Pod Squad.
Abby Wambach:
We love the Pod Squad.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, we do.
Abby Wambach:
Gosh.
Amanda Doyle:
Go easy on you.
Glennon Doyle:
I have an idea. I think that we should take some amazing questions from our amazing Pod Squad. What do you think, sister? Do you think that’s a good idea?
Amanda Doyle:
I love that idea. I love that idea.
Abby Wambach:
I love that idea.
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s do it. We’re going to hear from… I think live. We’re going to actually hear from one of the people in this-
Amanda Doyle:
I think so. I hope so.
Erica:
Oh my gosh. It’s actual, real, and happening and alive. And here. Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s happening. It’s all happening.
Erica:
Wow. Oh, this is so cool. It’s been so many years since I’ve seen you guys actually in person. Amanda, I really admire what you said in the podcast about overwhelm and recently identifying as creative and what do I do with that? And am I allowed? And can I put the fuel and heat and oxygen all together and do all these things that I feel are inside me and I should be doing them? So my question is: one, are you? Are you doing those things? So, that would be cool. And-
Glennon Doyle:
That would be cool, Erica.
Erica:
Yeah. And what’s happening? Are you feeling supported in that? And if not, what do you do about that? And how do Glennon and Abby help you? And how has your own family, your husband and kids and your parents and all that, help you? And how do you live in the both? How do you live in both places?
Amanda Doyle:
Oh my gosh. Okay. God love Erica. It would be cool if I were doing that, Erica. I think that I regret to inform Erica that the honest answer is that I have not figured that completely out. And by completely out, I mean not even close to figuring that out. But I do think that, in The Journal, you have this idea of: not this. That period of time where you know that the place that you are isn’t it, but you don’t necessarily know exactly what is it yet. And I think that that’s important, to just acknowledge the value of that place too, because I think, often, we don’t let ourselves even accept a truth when we don’t know if we cannot or we will not, or we don’t know how we’re going to act on that truth. And so I think the “not this” is a powerful place. And I spent a lot of time there.
Amanda Doyle:
I’ll just say that I don’t have it figured out yet. I’m trying really hard to figure it out. I’ve added a few things to my life, even though I know intellectually, probably subtracting things from my life is the better way. But I have started therapy, which is very good. And the really remarkable thing about that is I’m telling the truth to my therapist.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, wow.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, that’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Are you serious?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. All the terrible things. And I don’t know how many years of therapy that I spent acting like it was a coffee date.
Glennon Doyle:
Same. Asking how they are? “How are you?”
Amanda Doyle:
“I think I’m pretty good.”
Glennon Doyle:
“Yeah, let’s talk about your family.”
Amanda Doyle:
“I think I’m pretty good. How are you doing? How’s it going?” And so, I was trying to ace therapy-
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
… like they were grading me on my general decency as a human or something.
Abby Wambach:
Trying to “ace therapy” is so good.
Glennon Doyle:
Achievement addiction.
Amanda Doyle:
Haven’t gotten a damn thing out of it in 24 months, but [crosstalk 00:15:22]
Glennon Doyle:
“But at least, I’m also paying for it.” Yeah. “At least, I’m also paying for this.”
Amanda Doyle:
So, I am not actually doing that anymore. I am saying all the things, as if no one is judging me on my health or decency as a human. So I’m being very indecent, and it’s very… I think it’s making a difference. Also, and I feel a little weird about saying this, but I’m just going to say it because I think that we should. I looked at my family budget, and I realize that, of the four of us in the household, one of them goes golfing when they feel like it. One of them has signed up for 1500 baseball tournaments. One of them takes piano lessons and attends every Slime activity within 60 miles of us. And I just thought to myself, what would this budget look like if, hypothetically, I also had needs or preferences? Would it be a little different? And so I decided to make some adjustments, and I did. And so now, I have added this girl as a line item on the budget. And I am getting a massage once a month.
Abby Wambach:
Oh!
Amanda Doyle:
I am. I’m doing it. And it seems crazy. But I have to tell you that there is something so spiritually healing to me-
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
… about laying there, when it is actually someone else’s job to make me feel better. And there is literally nothing I can do to help anyone at all. And all I have to do is accept the help.
Abby Wambach:
Take. It’s all about taking.
Glennon Doyle:
And no one’s trying to just make out with you, either.
Abby Wambach:
It’s all about taking.
Amanda Doyle:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes! [crosstalk 00:17:14] No one is doing it because they have an ulterior motive. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It has nothing to do with giving. It’s just all about receiving.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And I’m telling you that it is something, that there is a shift in my body. And so, I feel really, really good about it. I also, as an efficiency junkie, also am, “That basically counts as a month at the gym because I know body work’s important.”
Glennon Doyle:
Totally. Totally.
Amanda Doyle:
So, it’s done.
Glennon Doyle:
Bodywork.
Amanda Doyle:
So, I just think that that’s really, I think body stuff is good. And I also think, if you’re in that place, anything that requires some adjustment of people around you, whether it’s time or budget or whatever, there is some value in that. It feels different than whether you’re stealing the side on the side that no one’s ever going to notice. So-
Abby Wambach:
Good job.
Amanda Doyle:
I just think that’s good. And to Erica, about the cost to other people, I just feel like, let’s be honest, they’re not not paying for it now. Anytime we’re not taking care of ourselves, the people around us are not not paying for it.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s exactly right.
Amanda Doyle:
They’re just paying for it in a very different way. And so I think-
Glennon Doyle:
Good job.
Amanda Doyle:
I think that the people in my life would rather pay their current price than the alternative that they were paying.
Abby Wambach:
So good.
Glennon Doyle:
Can I just follow up real quick? I know we need to get on to the next question, but I just want to ask one thing because Erica also asked you, “How can people support you? Or how are, or how not? And I just personally want to know-
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Glennon Doyle:
… that-
Abby Wambach:
I’m taking notes.
Glennon Doyle:
… because I feel like I’m always, “Damn it, take better care of yourself.” And then I’m also, “Can you do just fix these six problems for me real quick so I can-
Abby Wambach:
I can make the reservation, or whatever, for more massages. I think we should-
Glennon Doyle:
But really.
Abby Wambach:
… kick that up to once a week. I’ll call.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, God no.
Glennon Doyle:
No one else will.
Amanda Doyle:
The line item is very specific. No, I think that I am in a very, in some ways, the very most privileged position, where I think the people in my life really want what is good for me, and in some ways, the most difficult position, in that I have the hardest time making that okay with myself. I think the challenges are not necessarily with me asking for adjustments, but it’s actually being vulnerable enough to be, “I can’t handle all of this.” That makes me feel ech.
Glennon Doyle:
Not good enough? So, you are trying to get to the “Ugh”?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. Well I think it’s liberating. I think there’s freedom in embracing that it is not possible to do everything.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Because it’s not.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s just not possible to do everything, so once you just step into that freedom where you’re, “Oh, good news, bad news: it’s not possible to do everything,” then I think that that’s helpful.
Glennon Doyle:
I have a sign on my desk that says, “It’s okay if you don’t do everything.”
Abby Wambach:
That’s good. That’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
I love it.
Abby Wambach:
It’s okay. It is okay.
Amanda Doyle:
It is okay.
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Glennon Doyle:
Nobody can do everything.
Abby Wambach:
I think we have to go to the next question.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Leah! Where is Leah?
Amanda Doyle:
Leah!
Leah:
Hi.
Glennon Doyle:
Hi, Leah.
Leah:
Hi. I’m super nervous, so I apologize. I usually avoid public speaking, at all cost.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re already doing a great job, Leah. Really good.
Leah:
Thank you. My question is: how do you deal with the prospect and anxiety of having to be retained as the world goes back to normal, and you are being forced back into the world? As an introvert, an empath with so much anxiety and ADD, I have personally thrived with the world being shut down. I have had the most growth during these past two years that I have, ever in my life. And I have found my untamedness. Now that we are being told we have to go back into the world, to the office, and back to “the normal”, I am so anxious about the prospect of having to go back to how things used to be. And I am afraid I will fail and regress back to being the tamed me that I never really liked.
Abby Wambach:
Beautiful.
Glennon Doyle:
Leah. Well, first of all, I feel I’m excited about Leah. I feel like Leah really gets what “untamed” means. I think sometimes people, because of the goddamn cheetah thing that’s taken over, I think sometimes people think that what our idea of untamed is, is something that’s fierce and out there and loud and bold and all of those things, which is not all what I meant by “untamed.” What I meant by “untamed” was that there’s a self that we were born having. That there’s a self that has certain ways of being, that has a certain neurological way, that has a certain sensitivity way, that has a way of being in the world that is right for us. And over time, what our conditioning does, is it pushes us out of that self. It pressures us into being different than who we really, really are.
Glennon Doyle:
And so, “untaming” is going back to that truest inner self, which for many of us, for Leah, for me probably, is not loud and fierce and out there. What we have discovered, during this COVID time, is some of us found our peace for the first time. I feel just like Leah does. I have never been more comfortable in my own skin. I have never been at a rhythm that makes sense to me. For me, the constant going out in front of human beings, the constant, being out in all of these social situations, the constant having to navigate this and that and that and that and that, the constant weird vulnerability, that was constantly jarring to me. And so, Leah, I understand completely what you are saying.
Glennon Doyle:
I have found a rhythm that makes sense to me. I’ve even found a social life that makes sense to me, which is like, “I also like you. Did you want to come to my house for 48 minutes? Come at two, leave at 2:45.” We got to be weird. We got to be specific and weird. We got to stop being crazily overscheduled. We got to say, “No.” There’s a study done that a lot of women keep having children just because babies can be a shield. “No, I can’t go. I can’t because I have this baby. So I can’t do all the things you want me to do.” We actually can say what we want to do and what we won’t do. And we can keep saying, “No.” And we can decide we didn’t want to have those 27 friends, anyway. We only wanted these three friends.
Abby Wambach:
Everybody has to go to work, though. How does she manage that?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Work is a whole other thing. I keep seeing, and I keep reading. I do hope that people are going to be brave enough to actually say what’s working for them, in terms of work. I hope people are walking in and saying, “Actually, I was more productive and more myself from home.” And I hope that people who run things are open to a new order of things that meets more people’s needs because the world out there often only meets the needs of the most extroverted, bold-
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
… out there… and those aren’t always the best leaders at all. One of the things I’m thinking about so much lately is: this default we’ve had of the loudest person in the room, the most certain, is the leader. We do that even, when I was a teacher. I was, “They’re loud, they’re a leader.” And that’s never true. It’s often the quiet one, the best listener, the one who’s a curator of a conversation and not a dominator of conversation. So Leah, I know what you mean. It’s like we found ourselves during this time, and we found a rhythm and a life that works for us, and we don’t want to lose it.
Abby Wambach:
I think that what I’m hearing and what I’ve experienced over the last couple years is, I have gotten a sense of personal power that I’ve never had before. And I think it is scary to go out in the world and test that personal power that we think we’ve had because we’ve been doing it in the confines of our own homes or in the privacy of our own selves. We haven’t really had as much experience to go out there and practice. But what I know about practice is you’re not going to be perfect at it, at first.
Abby Wambach:
And what I know about discipline is that if you can practice something repetitively, over and over again, you’re just going to get better at it. So give yourself a lot of space to not be perfect. And give yourself a lot of love and not needing to be perfect at it yet. This is a life experiment. This is yours, and you get to figure it out. So I don’t know. I just think that that anxiety of trying to make it perfect at first, let that go, because it’s not going to be.
Glennon Doyle:
And maybe it’s a commitment of bringing our real selves wherever we are, just a little bit more. Leah said those things and made me feel so “Yes, that!” In all of these spaces, like work where Leah is, or wherever, we hide ourselves if we feel like we don’t like what’s going on. We think there’s something wrong with us. But if maybe we could commit to just telling truth a little bit more in those spaces, that’s how those spaces change.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Then other people get to say, “I actually don’t feel comfortable with this either. I would prefer this. I would.” But it’s going to take some brave people to bring their full selves to these spaces and tell the truth, so that the order can rearrange itself a little bit.
Abby Wambach:
I love that. That’s so good.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s true. And she said, she’s had the most progress, had the most peace. And how beautiful is that? That if all of life had been pre-COVID, and it never was a fit. And then she had this time, and she’s, “Oh wait, it’s not me. It’s all y’all.”
Glennon Doyle:
It’s them.
Amanda Doyle:
“This whole system doesn’t make any damn sense.”
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s really nice-
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
… to be able to step back and be, “Oh, it’s not me. It’s that this system is incompatible with me, but I am very compatible with myself. I know how I work. I know what I need.” And-
Glennon Doyle:
You know. You know.
Amanda Doyle:
… so, lean into that.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. We love you, Leah.
Glennon Doyle:
Stacy!
Abby Wambach:
Stacy!
Glennon Doyle:
Is Stacy with us?
Stacy:
Hi.
Glennon Doyle:
Hi, Stacy. Hi, Stacy.
Stacy:
Hello. Oh my gosh. Thanks for being my carpool buddies every single day to work. I feel like you guys are great passengers in my car. You clean up after yourselves, and it’s really awesome.
Abby Wambach:
Not Glennon.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m terrible. Stacy. I am terrible.
Stacy:
But I do have a question that’s become, actually, even more poignant to me over the past couple weeks. I was going to ask you what, when the three of you, when your spirits seem like they’re sagging or really low, what do you do to find your way through hard things? For me, I just want to put my rom-coms on and listen to the same Indigo Girls song over and over and over again. And then I want to scroll puppy videos until I can’t even keep my eyes open. And I think sometimes that’s what I need, and it’s hard for me to hear and think about and do the hard things. But I think I’m wired for hard. I go there all the time. I do the hard things. I say the hard things. I think the hard things. I believe the hard things. But especially lately, what do you do when that hard is just too much?
Glennon Doyle:
I hear you. I feel all of that. I had a major mental health crisis when I was in high school and then again, later, when I got sober. And what happens during those times is that you actually get to learn what people need. You get to learn how to be a human. If you’re lucky enough to have some resources, you have a recovery group, you have maybe some therapy, you have programs. You have these things that people who don’t have mental health crises don’t get, which is, “Here’s how to human a little bit.” It’s unbelievable that everybody doesn’t this sort of thing. “This is what people need.” We all know how to take care of our plants, but we don’t know how to take care of ourselves; nobody’s ever taught us.
Glennon Doyle:
I learned that my only real job, and I think, sister, you would agree with… both of you would probably agree with how I live my life, which is that my only real job is to just not lose my shit completely. I don’t wake up every day and be, “How do I heal the world today? How do I do all the hard things?” I am literally, “What do I have to do today to not completely lose my shit?” And then I do all of those things.
Glennon Doyle:
And for me, I have to tell you that, Stacy, if there’s a different way to do it than you’re doing it, I don’t know what it is because it’s-
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Right? I feel scared that Stacy’s expecting me-
Amanda Doyle:
She’s, “I do really, really hard things, and then I watch puppy videos.” I’m, “Nailed it!”
Glennon Doyle:
Nailed it. I believe in Stacy’s way. That’s what I do. I try to Joan of Arc some shit, I do. I’ve learned that there’s just a way of being that whatever is the hard thing, whatever’s the hard conversation, whatever’s the icky relationship, whatever’s the hardest job of the day, go towards that thing, Joan of Arc it straight towards the battle.
Abby Wambach:
And squish the time-
Glennon Doyle:
Between the knowing and the doing, when you know what you have to do. All of the suffering is in that space between knowing what you have to do and doing the thing you have to do. The most you can smoosh it, the better your life is. I believe that shit.
Abby Wambach:
It’s true.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It’s-
Amanda Doyle:
Smoosh it real good.
Glennon Doyle:
Smoosh it real good, yes. Smoosh it, Stacy. I can offer you that. But I have to tell you, I believe in quitting. I believe so much in the power of quitting. Every time anybody says to me, “How do you do this work without quitting?” I’m, “I quit every day.” Quitting is my favorite thing on earth. Quitting is a spiritual practice. I wake up in the morning, and I look forward to quitting, and I quit every single day.
Abby Wambach:
She does.
Glennon Doyle:
I do. I care the most amount for a lot of hours. And then I care not at all. And then I check out. And then I’m, whatever it is for the day, whether it’s just trash TV and carbs, or whatever it is. If I didn’t stop caring, if I didn’t quit every single day, I wouldn’t start again. It’s just a serious rhythm to me. And then, I always think about, the bigger my thinking gets, because Stacy feels like, to me, somebody who might be a “And then things are big, and then things are hard, and everything sucks.” And this is how my brain works. A couple times a day, the bigger the problem is, the smaller the solution is for me. The more I hate my life, the more I hate my house, the more I hate my job, the more I hate my… I need, I need… and what I really usually need is a glass of water.
Glennon Doyle:
I usually need-
Amanda Doyle:
So true.
Glennon Doyle:
This is in The Journal. I keep a list of little things that I need to do to fix myself. Like what Stacy’s saying, when I can’t do it, when I’m overwhelmed. There are things that we do when things get hard, that are ways of abandoning ourselves. Okay? For me, that’s the booze. That was the drugs. That’s the binging and purging. Sometimes for me, it’s the shopping. There’s a lot of things. Okay? And then there are things that help me stay with myself. And those are always so simple. They’re a glass of water, a walk outside, some fresh air. They’re play with your dogs, put your phone away. And I keep a list of things close to me because once things have gotten too hard, it’s too late. You can’t be creative when you’re overwhelmed.
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I also think that having a partner in close proximity, or somebody that knows you really well, that can have a safe word if they are seeing you experiencing life extra hard, is helpful. Sometimes I’ll say to Glennon, “Hey Glennon, have you had any water today? Have you done the self care things that usually bring you a little relief?”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. When one of the kids says, “So mom, how about some yoga?” That’s when I know. That’s when I know. Thank you, Stacy. We think you’re doing it all right, basically. We think you’re nailing it. Let’s hear from Aisha. Hi, Aisha.
Aisha:
Hi. How are you guys? The internet over here is a little bit slow. I’m really far from you guys. It’s 8:00 AM here right now.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God, please. You’re perfect. You’re doing great.
Aisha:
Awesome. This is really exciting for me. Before I get carried away and talk a lot about myself, I want to throw my question at you guys. A little background about myself. I’m originally from Pakistan. And that is where I am right now. I’m visiting family. But I live in the US; I’ve been there for about 11, 12 years now. I identify myself as a feminist. And Glennon, I do relate to a lot of beliefs that you talk about and things you say. But living in this society and culture that I’m part of…
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, Aisha.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, no.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, no.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m going to pull up her question from [crosstalk 00:36:49].
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t want to miss her question.
Amanda Doyle:
She says, “I am a feminist, and I am always calling out things I don’t agree with, but no one respects that because being a feminist is not applicable to our culture and practices that I am stuck in. How do I unbind myself from such a life? How do I bring change and help other women?
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, Aisha. First of all, I hope Aisha is still on. First of all, the only appropriate answer to that question from me is, “I don’t know.” I don’t know. We all have different cultural conditioning. Every single one of us has a different group of rules that we’re trying to break free from. And mine, as a white woman, are very different from Aisha’s. So I can tell you that, since Untamed has been out in the world, I’ve been thinking a lot and learning a lot about what feminism looks like, as a white woman.
Abby Wambach:
Always reading the feminism books.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
Always.
Glennon Doyle:
Always reading. And I just think this is interesting. There’s this quote from Untamed that people circulate a whole lot, and it says, “The braver I am, the luckier I get.” Okay? And that quote, within the context of the story that I wrote, I still believe in. But it also makes me a little bit cringey, and let me explain why.
Abby Wambach:
The problem with print, something that goes out, is you can’t amend it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It’s just-
Abby Wambach:
You can’t edit it.
Glennon Doyle:
And you shouldn’t. It’s a record of where we are when we are there. And then, if we’re still growing, if we’re still paying attention, if we’re still learning, if we’re still openhearted and open minded, we shouldn’t be in the same place we were four years ago.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s not the way any of this is supposed to work.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
We are supposed to be wrestling and stretching ourselves and growing. So anyway, one of our dear friends, her name is Dr. Yaba Blay, she’s an unbelievable educator and human being. And it’s so interesting because the closer we’ve got, the more I started watching her work in the world, and she speaks very strongly and openly and beautifully about white supremacy. The more I watched her doing her work in the world, I realized, huh. Often the braver Dr. Blay is, the unluckier she gets, in terms of the next opportunity, the next opening. The more Yaba tells the truth, the more often her next opportunity is limited, where mine seems to open.
Glennon Doyle:
And so, it is also true that the luckier I am, the braver I get. So, you know what I would say, to Aisha is that my job… I used to think white feminism just meant I’m a feminist, and I’m white, so that’s white feminism. No. It’s a whole idea that what we are doing, as white women, is just trying to get and higher up in a system that is corrupt; just getting a few of us through, as opposed to “No, no, no, no, no. We just don’t even believe in any of the system. We’re aligning ourselves with other groups of women or other groups, not even women, just all different marginalized groups, to change the system completely, so that more people are served.” So, that’s my job, as a feminist who’s white. I don’t have a freaking clue what Aisha’s job is because I don’t know what she’s dealing with.
Glennon Doyle:
I know that the people that I learn from, the black women and women of color… I would ask Aisha to look at Brittany Cunningham’s work, to look at Brittney Cooper’s work, to look at Dr. Yaba Blay, Tarana Burke, Austin Channing Brown. Khalida Brohi is a Pakistani woman that we spoke with on the Together Tour, who was completely amazing. Outspoken feminist. And I think that there are many people for Aisha to learn from. And maybe, in that particular way, I’m not her. Yeah. The luckier I am, the braver I get.
Abby Wambach:
Love it. Aisha-
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you, Aisha. Okay. We’re going to go to Jessica.
Abby Wambach:
Hi Jessica.
Glennon Doyle:
Hi, Jessica.
Jessica:
So great to be with you all.
Glennon Doyle:
You too.
Abby Wambach:
Same.
Glennon Doyle:
You too.
Jessica:
Yeah. I just love listening to the three of you because you bring such different perspectives. And I identify with each one of you at different points. The insights that you share, on many of the different episodes of the podcast, really come from being able to make space enough to find your knowing. And that’s just so hard. How can we all do that in our crazy lives when we’re called upon to be responsive to children, partners, family, coworkers? It’s really hard.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. First of all, thank you Jessica, for that question. So many of us are asking that exact question right now. Whenever I hear women, especially, say, “I want to take care of myself. I want to take care of myself. I want to find myself. I want to live my life, but how can I do that when I’m worried about my kids? I’m worried about my coworkers. I’m worried about my parents. I’m worried about…” One of the ways that I have learned to speak to women especially is, “Okay, we’re going to worry anyway.” Whenever someone says, “Don’t worry,” I’m, “Great. That’s great advice. That’s super helpful.” We’re going to worry anyway. So let’s worry about something different. What if we worried about setting an example for those kids, that meant they didn’t get to live either because they were copying what we’re doing.
Abby Wambach:
Ugh. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
What if we worried about not modeling a full, human, joyful life, that they, one day, will be able to recreate? What if we just took the worry and switched it, in a way that gave us permission to live as well as other people permission to live? Because I just am telling you, I just know from my own life that there is this thing that happens when you stop believing that a good woman or a good mother or a good wife or a good daughter just buries herself. Just doesn’t live. Just refuses to have desires. Just refuses to have dreams. Refuses to have feelings. Refuses to have humanity. When you stop believing that and you instead decide, “No. A woman does get to have, have to have, dream, ambition, desire, feeling, intuition, juiciness, all of it.”
Glennon Doyle:
At first, there’s a shit show. There is. Because the whole world revolves around the idea that women will not meet their own needs. So when we do start, everybody has to reassemble for a while. Balls drop. People get pissed. If you can wait out that storm, what I found is that then you start to see your people around you watch you and also give themselves permission to live. You just invite more life in. When you demand more life from yourself, you eventually invite more life from your kids.
Glennon Doyle:
I remember having this conversation with our friend, Dr. Brene Brown on her podcast, a long time ago, and us talking of about this, and her saying that she had this day where she came home, and she was supposed to go to her son’s event, basketball game or something. And she was so freaking tired that she just couldn’t do it. And so, she just did not show up for her son’s thing that her son really wanted her to be at or whatever. And it was heartbreaking for her, and she just didn’t show up. And then the next day, her son came in, and she said to him, “I was so tired, and I just couldn’t be around people anymore. I just needed to not be around people.” And she thought that her son was going to be sad, and instead, her son said, “I don’t want to be around people sometimes.”
Abby Wambach:
“We can do that?”
Glennon Doyle:
He goes, “We can do that?” He said, “Sometimes I don’t want to be around people. I want to be home. But I didn’t know we could just do that.” In her refusing to martyr herself for her child, she gave her child permission to be her child’s self.
Abby Wambach:
Yep. It’s funny how that works.
Glennon Doyle:
What we’re going to do right now, because we have keeping you for literally an extra 35 minutes. And I would keep you for eight more hours if I could. But here’s what I want to say to you: I am so deeply grateful, from my family to yours, for walking this, doing this life with us. Thank you for loving us. Thank you for loving us even when things got really weird and hard. And thank you for showing up for us over and over again. Thank you for loving my sister, who we just-
Abby Wambach:
She’s lovable. She’s magic.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you for loving her so much. Thank you. We love you. We love you and your families and your dogs and your plants and your lives. We just love you. And we love you so much that before we say goodbye, we are going to offer you one of the three best things that we have, which is our Tish Melton is here. And she has something to perform to you because this is how we end things together.
Abby Wambach:
When life gets hard this week, folks…
Glennon Doyle:
Don’t forget, we can do hard things. We love you.
Glennon Doyle:
(singing)
Abby Wambach:
Bye, everybody.
Amanda Doyle:
Love you!