YOUR HOLIDAY PEP TALK: “We ask no questions of this day.”
November 25, 2021
Glennon Doyle:
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. It is Thanksgiving.
Abby Wambach:
Happy Thanksgiving.
Glennon Doyle:
Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Or whatever Thanksgiving. Doesn’t have to be happy Thanksgiving. Some people are having a sad Thanksgiving. Some people are having a stressful Thanksgiving.
Abby Wambach:
Happy no Thanksgiving if you don’t celebrate Thanksgiving.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That’s right. Whatever your Thanksgiving it is, welcome.
Abby Wambach:
We’re here today on this Thursday.
Glennon Doyle:
On this Thursday.
Abby Wambach:
On this third Thursday of November.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s fourth.
Glennon Doyle:
How are you doing?
Amanda Doyle:
It’s always fourth.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, it’s fourth, yeah. See, I don’t even know nothing.
Glennon Doyle:
How are you doing on this Thanksgiving, sissy?
Amanda Doyle:
Great, great. We just do what we do. We just have… We tried one year since John and I do not actually prefer Thanksgiving food. We realized that-
Abby Wambach:
Wait, what?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, we used to spend four days preparing the turkey, the mash potato, the yams, whatever, the hell, all the things. And we were like, “We don’t really like this meal.”
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my gosh. What a revelation? What don’t you like? I’m so fascinated by this.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s not like we don’t like it. It’s just like, my God, you’re going to spend four days making this thing that you’re just kind of like meh. I could take it or leave it. So we swap hosting. So, we’ll host one year and then my mother-in-law will host the next year. And we decided for our year we were going to do this special thing where we were going to do the meal we would actually eat if we wanted to spend four days doing it. So, we had lobster and bouillabaisse and oysters and all of it. And everyone was so-
Abby Wambach:
How do you do oysters at home?
Amanda Doyle:
You grill them. You put them on the grill.
Abby Wambach:
Shut the front door.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, it’s delicious.
Abby Wambach:
Okay. Keep going. This is awesome.
Amanda Doyle:
So, we do… The whole family was just so lovely and kind and gracious and we thought it was the best Thanksgiving ever. And then the next day they let us know that that was really cute and sweet what we had done and also that it could never happen again because they really miss the turkey. So, now we just do, everyone brings-
Glennon Doyle:
What they want.
Amanda Doyle:
Everyone brings what they want, and it’s like the best day because it’s easy as hell. It’s just like making dinner.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, and everyone brings… You untamed your Thanksgiving. You said ask not what Thanksgiving wants of me. What I ask is what I want of Thanksgiving.
Abby Wambach:
Okay. That’s actually what she’s done, too. Whether you meant it or not is you’re like, I’m going to do exactly what I want. And then people are probably going to have feelings about it. And then I’m just going to be like, “Oh, okay.” So, you don’t want to do what I want to do. So, every single one of you has to bring something to actually create the dinner. So, then you just completely outsource all of the work.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s really is a metaphor.
Abby Wambach:
This is brilliant.
Glennon Doyle:
This is a way to do that. Everyone is held and free at Thanksgiving table, and you can bring your full self and you can bring your own goddamn casserole. It’s what you can do.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, I think the key is trying something different. It’s just experimenting because we didn’t… There’s nothing negative about it. It’s not like, “You didn’t like my lobsters, screw y’all. You’re got to bring some casserole.” It’s nothing like that.
Abby Wambach:
No, but it was-
Amanda Doyle:
It’s just like, we tried it. We found the middle way that people… That worked for everyone, and that’s the key. Is it working for everyone or is it working for everyone other than you?
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And this way it’s delightful. It’s just delightful. So it’s easy, breezy.
Glennon Doyle:
Love it. So, if we showed up at your house on Thanksgiving and there was no turkey and stuffing, Tish would lose her mind. She’s a tradition girl, so we do all of that. But my favorite part of Thanksgiving is the parade, and also after Thanksgiving-
Abby Wambach:
What about before the parade?
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, for fuck sake. So, I once saw this meme. This is what you people who are listening who I love so much need to know about my life. I once saw this meme that said, “I live in fear that one day I will marry into a family that does turkey trots.” Okay> I need to tell you that my family now does effing turkey trots because I am married to an Olympian. And so, that is a-
Abby Wambach:
To be fair, Craig is all about the Turkey trot. This is not just because of me and my background.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
So, it’s like a fifth of the population. It’s not just like, it’s only Olympians who trot it out on Turkey day.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
Because I’m married to an Olympian.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
And so, we get our whole family all bundled up, because it’s usually a tad bit colder.
Glennon Doyle:
A tad, it’s freaking freezing. And so, on our holiday-
Abby Wambach:
By the way, we’ve only been doing Turkey trots in Naples, Florida. It’s been 80 degrees.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s so cold. So, my second favorite part of Thanksgiving is that every Thanksgiving night we watch Home Alone, which is one of my top three favorite movies in the whole world. What we are here to do today is help our beloved pod squad through this day, which as if you’ve listened to the Tuesday’s episode, we went through all of the things that we’re going to do to human our way through this day, which can be very, very tricky with all of the loss we’ve had this previous year, with all of the family force togetherness that comes with this day often. With all of the kind of when we get back with our families the old patterns were dragged into. This can be a tough day. This is a day for love warriors. This is a day where we have to have all of our hacks where we remember not to abandon ourselves, and we remember how loved we are.
Abby Wambach:
It’s loaded. Today’s a loaded day.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s not just your potatoes that are loaded on Thanksgiving.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, exactly. Can you read, I want you to read what you wrote about Thanksgiving because it’s so good.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, okay. This is, I have a little thing to read to you all, and this is my benediction for you, for your Thanksgiving day. This is my wishes for you.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay. Thank you for this.
Glennon Doyle:
This is what I would like for you to take with you into your day. It’s Thanksgiving morning, which means it is time to set our Thanksgiving expectations. All right? First, here’s what we tend to think. It’s Thanksgiving. It’ll be like this. It will be peaceful, and everyone will gaze lovingly at each other in cozy, precious sweaters and chuckle at witty banter while the fire crackles and Uncle Joe decides against talking politics and Anne Bertha remains sober and vertical and organic Cousin Sarah eats the damn stuffing and Brother Tom puts it all behind him and just shows up. And Lisa and Karen bury the hatchet and baste the turkey together. And your mother-in-law finally notices your excellent parenting and apologizes for being so shortsighted for so very long. It’s going to be just like that. It’s going to be just like the commercials. This is the year.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Actually, it’ll be like this. Uncle Joe’s going to talk about politics very loudly and first thing. Aunt Bertha is going to drink like a saguaro cactus. Sarah’s going to talk about how much red dye is in the goddamn cranberry sauce and pull out her Tofurky at dinner while wearing her Make America Great Again red hat. And even if you pray hard, even if you stare at that front door all day long, Brother Tom might never show up. Lisa and Karen are going to go at it like The Real Housewives. Your mother-in-law is going to notice that your middle kid really needs a haircut and shouldn’t he know how to tie his own shoes by now? Here’s the terrible news. The best predictor of how a family’s going to act is how a family has always acted. Okay?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
It will never ever be like the commercials.
Abby Wambach:
Dammit.
Glennon Doyle:
But here’s the good news. Our crazy families aren’t the problem. Those commercials with the fake perfect families are the problem.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
There are two ways to achieve holiday happiness, beloveds. Number one, make sure everything goes exactly as we expect it to. With this approach, we will be so full of whoa 10 times out of 10. Option two, drastically lower our expectations.
Abby Wambach:
Dang, that’s a novelty.
Glennon Doyle:
At speaking events, women often stand up and say this to me. “Gee, I so badly want to be real with people. I want to stop acting and just be myself in this world. But I feel I’ll never have that because I can’t even be real with my family. I don’t even recognize myself with them. If I can’t be me with my family, what hope do I have of ever being real?” And I always say, “Oh, sweet, fancy Moses. Precious one, you’ve got it all backwards. Nobody on Earth can be real with her family.
Abby Wambach:
That’s so true.
Glennon Doyle:
For God’s sake, when it comes to authenticity, family is not the starting place. Family is the final frontier.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Practicing realness with family is like practicing cat grooming in a lion’s den. If you’d like to practice being real and vulnerable on yourself, don’t start with your family. Start at the post office because being real, and relaxed, and peaceful has to do with going off script. With being a soul, instead of a role. Our families are where our roles are most deeply entrenched.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Are you the free spirited, flighty, irresponsible one? Are you the detail oriented, boring, responsible one? Are you the hippy, the clown, the scapegoat? We all have our roles. Families are but a stage, and we are all players. Families are living, breathing ecosystems, and it takes each to do his or her part to get the job done. Notice that no matter how much progress make during the year, the second you walk into your home, you feel eight years old again.
Abby Wambach:
Ugh. Every time.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. So does everybody else. We all do. No problem. The show must go on. The fucking family show must go on. I don’t know why it just does. So, here’s what we do today. We stop trying to be the director of the family and we just become an amused audience member. We jump on stage when it’s our line. We let everybody in the family play his or her role without being a critic. We let go of all of that. We stop trying to change our people long enough to see them for who they are and find some beauty in each of their characters. We remember that the reason there is so much food around on family holidays is so we don’t say too terribly much.
Abby Wambach:
Stuff it.
Glennon Doyle:
We stop fixing. We stop persuading. We stop cajoling, and judging, and disapproving, and lobbying. We stop hoping so hard. Ye, abandon hope on Thanksgiving. Oh, Ye who enter Thanksgiving abandon hope here. We just start accepting. We stop directing. We stop, stop, stop directing. We just let it all be. We cement our perspectacles firmly to our faces.
Abby Wambach:
Perspectacles, oh.
Glennon Doyle:
We find some gratitude for these insane ass people who are our people. Damn it. We remember that family is just the ones who keep showing up. We are grateful to and for the ones who show up. They’re a mess, but they are our mess. And thank God because we are a mess too, but we are their mess. And maybe we stop at the store and pick up a box of our favorite hot tea. We keep our mug filled all day and every time our hands feel the warmth of that mug we remember, I am loved. I am loved. I am loved. I am whole and beloved, and I will bring my worth into this day with me, and I will carry it out of this day with me. My worth and belovedness are not given or taken, proven or disproved by a mother or father or in-law or a friend. I am not asking that question of today because I already know that answer.
Abby Wambach:
I’m taking that.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s our Thanksgiving benediction. Okay?
Amanda Doyle:
All right.
Abby Wambach:
That’s beautiful.
Glennon Doyle:
Abandoned hope, ye who enter.
Abby Wambach:
I love that.
Amanda Doyle:
I love the I am not asking that question of today.
Glennon Doyle:
No, we’re asking… This is not a day for questions. This is not a questioning day.
Abby Wambach:
This is a day for abandoning hope.
Glennon Doyle:
This is a day for knowing. We bring our worth into this day. We take our worth. We ask no questions of this day.
Amanda Doyle:
So good.
Abby Wambach:
All right.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. So do we want to hear from our beloved pod squad?
Amanda Doyle:
We do. God love them and keep them. Let’s do it.
Rebecca:
My name is Rebecca and I have a hard thing. I need your help with how to handle holidays and in-laws. I moved to the location where my husband grew up. We’ve been living here for our whole married life outside of the military, and it’s been two plus decades that I have been married to him, and my family does not live close by. My parents are no longer living on this Earth. And so, holiday time with his family is all I got. But a lot of times, especially Thanksgiving, which also coincides with my birthday just does not make me feel good. And so, I think the hard thing would be to not go, but then I feel bad if I’m keeping my husband from his family and I feel bad if I’m all by myself. Thank you so much. I love all three of you and all the work you put out into the world.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, Rebecca, I feel like this is the question of every human being on the planet.
Glennon Doyle:
At the holidays.
Abby Wambach:
Do I not go spend the holidays with my in-laws? Not mine, I love my in-laws.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. What do you think sissy? Do you have any ideas for Rebecca? I have some thoughts, but you’re generally more balanced about these things. I mean, I have strong feelings about Rebecca, but I don’t know if they’re the kindest.
Abby Wambach:
Would you be… Is your thought like, Rebecca never go to the in-laws.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I mean, I just hear are everything that Rebecca said. Just Rebecca has lost her family. She’s lost her parents. It’s her birthday. It’s Thanksgiving. She has a husband that she loves. I mean, what I wish so much for Rebecca is that she and her husband would spend the holiday together not at her in-laws. I wish the question for Rebecca was what do I do for myself and my family, which is her and her husband to make myself feel most grateful and loved and surrounded this Thanksgiving? Just there are… I feel really strongly about when we become adults and we make our little families that that is the priority. I mean, I love my parents. I love your parents, but I will always choose when they oppose each other in terms of what’s going to bring us peace. I’m always choosing our little family. It’s like that idea and untamed of they had their chance to build their island, and now it’s our time. So I don’t know how to get there, but this idea that we have to go back for Thanksgiving, it just doesn’t sit right with me. My wish for Rebecca is that maybe she and her husband could go see their family the week before or the week after.
Amanda Doyle:
I think it’s interesting to play with the holidays with this idea of what if because we don’t… There’s some things that are seen as so sacrosanct. We could never even question what if we didn’t go to your folks this Thanksgiving? What if instead of buying all these presents, we took a trip? What if actually what I’m most stressed out about is money, so it would mean a lot to me if we didn’t buy to the presents and we put it in the bank instead? What if we decided that it was just going to be the two of us and we were go on a walk?
Amanda Doyle:
Sometimes we don’t even bring it up because it’s like, you wouldn’t dare. We wouldn’t dare. But what if her husband’s like, “Oh, thank you, baby Jesus. I would love nothing more than for us to have popcorn and watch some football and go on a walk and just do whatever we wanted to do.” And maybe not. Maybe he really does want to go over there. But I think that it’s just interesting to think about what are the possibilities? What’s the experiment? I think the question that you pose Glennon about where is your obligation? Where is your loyalty? I think it’s a hard one for a lot of people.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, and there’s one sentence she said that I just am not sure about. She said, she was talking about how she lost her parents and family far away. And she said, and so holiday time with his family is all I’ve got. I actually don’t think that’s true. I think what Rebecca has is the potential to create whatever kind of holiday she wants. When I talk to people who are stuck in what I’m supposed to do. I know I’m supposed to do this thing, but it makes me feel bad. That’s the time where we get… The only way to get out of the supposed tos is to get into our imagination. I believe this with all of my heart. And so, it’s like, okay, I’m supposed to do this thing, but it makes me feel bad. Okay, stop, because we’re in our conditioning. Let’s sit down. Let’s have Rebecca and her husband sit down and say, “Okay, what is the truest most beautiful holiday we can imagine this year.” Nothing has to be forever. I think we get so scared that, “Oh God, we’re losing everything.” No, no, no. Let’s just do it one year at a time because we’re different every year.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, I love that.
Glennon Doyle:
What is the truest most beautiful holiday we can imagine this year?
Abby Wambach:
And I love what sister said because it disarmors any kind of defense, right? Because it’s like, if you approach it in a way that’s just asking questions very simple like what if we do this? Or what if we try this? And it makes it-
Glennon Doyle:
The what if I love.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, it makes it less like, “Hey, I really don’t love the holiday.” So, what can we imagine that is exactly what we want? I love that.
Glennon Doyle:
And then she can focus on, I need, I want, I feel like this year I need because the in-law stuff is so loaded. I mean, you and I talk about this all the time. Just like it doesn’t have to become a huge thing about this is why I don’t like them, and this is why I feel bad. It’s just like, this year I feel like I need the truest most beautiful holiday I can imagine, the truest most beautiful birthday that you’re like, “What I need to feel this year is this.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, because we’re all changing all the time.
Glennon Doyle:
No. And what an opportunity to bond between her and her husband?
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
The partner can step in and say, “I want to give you what you need this year.”
Abby Wambach:
Yep. Just because it was doesn’t mean it always has to be.
Glennon Doyle:
Rebecca, we love you. Happy birthday.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Let’s hear from Bridget.
Bridget:
Hi, this is Bridget. So, I’m getting married in June. How do you navigate in-laws and deep family patterns? My family is huge. We love each other so much. And at the dinner table, we talk about how is therapy going and what antidepressants we’re on? It runs deep in our family, depression and anxiety. And then navigating my fiance’s family where no feelings have ever been discussed and how to move forward in life and have kids and raise kids with these two very different families. Not that either one is wrong. Obviously, I love my family more. I don’t know if that’s right to say, but I love you all. Your podcast has really just saved me, but in-laws, what do we need to do about them?
Abby Wambach:
Oh, Bridget, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, Bridget is the best.
Amanda Doyle:
In-laws, what do we do about them?
Glennon Doyle:
Not that there’s anything wrong with them, I just can’t stand it.
Abby Wambach:
Obviously, I love my family more.
Glennon Doyle:
I have thoughts. I feel like, obviously, I talk about all of the things, and I have had experiences where I have stepped into families that talked about feelings less. I have handled this poorly. This is what I’ll say, okay? In my first marriage, I don’t think I handled it well. I felt like if a family was very different than mine or me that there was something wrong with them. They didn’t talk about feelings. They didn’t talk… But I felt like they were doing it wrong. And I felt like I needed to deepen every conversation, change every… Pull us back to whatever I felt like… And here’s a story that changed my life.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, I was reading and I don’t remember where. It was a story that Dr. Maya Angelo wrote in one of her books. And she was talking about this party that she went to and she walked into the party and there was a beautiful rug on the floor, a gorgeous rug. And everybody was tiptoeing around the rug. Nobody would step on the rug, and she was very upset by this because she felt like what kind of snooty person has a party and then puts out rug and doesn’t let… Just does it for shell, and doesn’t let everybody just be and step on it. So, she decided to be the brave one and disobey the social conditions that were happening at the party. So, she just started stepping all over the rug to assert her belief unto this party.
Abby Wambach:
To liberate them.
Glennon Doyle:
To deliberate these people from their oppression. And what she finds out is as she steps away, she sees a person come out and carefully fix the places on the rug where she had stepped because this was a holy part of the culture she was stepping into. This rug was a piece of… You’d have to read this story. It was some part of beautiful tradition.
Amanda Doyle:
They ate on it.
Glennon Doyle:
They ate on the rug. Right, right, right. This was a beautiful, important part of their culture that she had literally just walked all over because she thought she knew better. I read this story, and all I could think of… It was during my first marriage, and all I could think about was my in-laws and about how I just walked into their party, and they had their ways, and they had their traditions, and they had their culture. And I just was like, “Oh, this is incorrect.” And just walked all over it with my dirty feet.
Glennon Doyle:
So, now I’m in my second marriage, and we often say Bridget to each other, “Let’s second marriage this, not first marriage this.” So, Bridget, it sounds like this might be your first marriage. So I’m just going to give you some second marriage wisdom, which is Bridget, just from me, be super, super grateful that you have your beautiful family who discusses feelings the way that you want to. And then when you step into this other family, maybe look for the beauty that is there instead of trying to enforce your particular idea of beauty onto… You’re visiting another culture is what you’re doing is you’re visiting another culture. And so, let’s just try to take our shoes off and when necessary step around the rug and just trusting that there’s generations and layers that we don’t, and we’ll never understand in the family.
Abby Wambach:
Well, look for the light. Rather than stepping into your in-law’s environment with judgment, go in with more curiosity because here’s the thing, they might not talk about the feelings, because I think that this is a very similar dynamic to your family and opposition to mine. My family is not a feelings type of talking family, but there is real beauty if you can find it in that culture, right? You just have to look for it. So rather than comparing your family to your partner’s family, look for all the beauty in both, and take home and take care of the beauty in both. Yes, there will be annoying things that drive you bonkers about your in-laws. That’s just the way of the world because it’s different, and difference comes with kind of a friction, but there still can be beauty found in that.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, and it’s a lightning of the load, too. Bridget, just it’s like, it was such a lightening of me to walk in and be like, “Oh, it’s not my job to fix anything here. I don’t have to change anybody here. This isn’t saying anything about me or my values or my kids or my whatever. I’m just here as an observer.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Right. And the truth is that in a few years, what you’ll realize is that both of your families are wrong.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Everybody’s wrong.
Amanda Doyle:
Everybody goes into a marriage thinking, “Can you believe them over there? They are nuts.” And then the longer you live you realize, “Oh, all families are nuts.” And you can see as you begin to build your own third ecosystem, you begin to look upon both of your families of origin and be like, “Well, now that shit is crazy. How come I never could see that before?” And now-
Abby Wambach:
That’s right. Amen.
Amanda Doyle:
… that over there is crazy. But you can also see the beauty of all of it. So, you don’t need to set up these things in opposition to each other because soon enough you’ll see there’s an equal amount of crazy in both, and you just take and plant what you want from each in your own space.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, we have a write in I wanted to discuss. Okay, here we go. Hi, G. My husband and I are starting to make plans for the upcoming holiday season, and have decided to spend Thanksgiving with his family. I have a difficult relationship with his sister who I know has said hurtful things about me behind my back to other family members. To my face, however, she tries to be my friend. I have no interest in this knowing how she really feels about me. But at the end of the day, she’s still family, and I don’t want to make things complicated for my husband though he knows about his sister’s antics and supports me entirely.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s a very important clause.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. Any advice on how to gracefully navigate this middle school-esque situation while also setting maintaining boundaries to protect both my mental health and my relationship with my husband? Thanks for all you do.
Amanda Doyle:
Please see Tuesday’s episode, be unsurprised.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
And also prepare.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I just, I don’t know. I have… So, yes. Be unsurprised. You have to listen to the last episode. We talked a lot about how let’s just call her sister-in-law Joanna. Joanna’s going to Joanna.
Amanda Doyle:
What does Joanna do?
Glennon Doyle:
Joanna.
Amanda Doyle:
She Joanna, Joanna’s
Glennon Doyle:
Joanna Joanna’s.
Amanda Doyle:
We’re not going to expect Joanna to Sarah. We’re going to expect Joanna to Joanna.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. Okay? So to this love bug, we’re going to tell you no matter what her name is, we want you all day to be thinking Joanna’s got a Joanna. And then also I’m just going to take this just a little bit further, which may or may not.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, I can’t wait. I know exactly what you’re going to say.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m going to call this right in. I hate when they don’t leave their name because I want to talk directly-
Abby Wambach:
It’s Gina.
Glennon Doyle:
No, I made up Gina. Well, it’s Gina. We’re going to call her Gina. I feel as if I’ve gotten to this point where I know for certain that the people who drive me the most bat shit crazy drive me crazy because they are showing me something about myself that I’m not crazy about.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my God. I didn’t think you were going to go this direction.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So, it reminds me of like when, when Ama came home. No, it was Tish came home one day, and she was talking about this girl at school. And she was like… She was little. She was like five. No, she was like five years old, and she’s like, “Mommy, I can’t stand her. She’s just so competitive. She has to win everything. She has to win everything. She’s so competitive.” And I kept saying to her, “Honey bunny, do you hear… You know what kind of person would not be bothered by that is someone who wasn’t determined to win everything.” What you’re saying is this girl will not let me win everything.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So, I feel like if we wanted to… Level two is Joanna’s going to Joanna. We can take that. It’s just the holiday. We’re just trying to survive. But level three is what about Joanna upsets me so much, and what is it reflecting about me? Because the only… The truth is I am someone to get upset about… I would say like, “What the hell is middle school drama?” Whatever. But it’s only someone who’s a little bit drawn to or identifies with that sort of drama that’s going to become dramatized by it.
Abby Wambach:
Yes, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
So, it’s like we have… Okay, so I have someone in my life who drives me bat shit crazy. Abby has someone in her who drives her bat shit crazy. And the reason why this person drives-
Abby Wambach:
We do?
Glennon Doyle:
The reason why this person drives Abby crazy is because she brings up stuff in Abby that is unhealed. When this person says things to Abby, it bothers her because part of her beliefs it’s true about her.
Abby Wambach:
Because part of it is true of me because I believe it’s true.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Because when people say stuff about us, that is so wild and off base, it doesn’t bother us. When people say something about us that hits a nerve of something that is a shame belief inside of us, it upsets us, and we feel like we have to defend ourselves, and we feel like have to… Because part of us believes it’s true. And because of this, and this is the important part, you can actually get to this place where you realize that the people who bring shit up in you are the biggest gift to you. It’s like, thank God for that person. Yeah. It’s like if they’re a doctor who’s examining you, and giving you a diagnosis that you didn’t even know was there before they showed up.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Because they touch on this unhealed thing for you that if you have to work out, you become a wholer and healthier person. So what I suspect is that Joanna is one of those effing, terrible spiritual teachers who makes us feel some thing that we have to work out that if we’re smart enough, we will work out on our own.
Amanda Doyle:
It reminds me of the Esther Perel episode that we just did where she talked about in relationships, behind every criticism there’s a longing. And it’s like, I wonder if that’s both ways. I wonder if our friend Gina, she’s calling it middle school drama, but is it actually a longing that she wishes she thought maybe she would have this relationship with her sister-in-law and she doesn’t have it, and that’s a real sadness. It’s easier to be like, “Joanna’s terrible,” than to be like, “I’m so sad that I’m not going to have that in my life.” I think that’s fair, too. That is a sadness, and you can be sad about that. Not surprised.
Glennon Doyle:
Just not surprised, but it would be cool to experiment is what I’m saying. It would be cool for when Gina says things to herself like Joanna is not trustworthy. Joanna is not… Are you sure? Like the whole Byron Katie thing. What if she went into the day to believing that her sister-in-law was trustworthy, that she could have a relationship with her. This whole different energy. What if she approached it with this whole different energy? I wonder if she’d get a different energy back. I think that would be a cool experiment. That’s level five.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. Who is it? That is telling Gina what Joanna’s saying? Because you want to know the real problem in that family. Ding, ding, ding. Whoever’s communicating those two things to each other is the real issue in your family because it’s probably not Joanna. Joanna might be talking to her family members about issues that she is dealing with and behind her criticisms are longings, too, but the person who’s bringing that shit to your doorstep is where you want to look hard.
Abby Wambach:
For sure.
Glennon Doyle:
I love that. So what about that, Gina? What if you decided to be a person when the issue is not, what is Joanna saying about me? But the energy becomes don’t talk to me about this. Whoever is coming to you and stirring this pot. No, that’s a way of changing a dynamic in a family. I will not… If I’m going to hear from Joanna it will be from Joanna.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Because if Joanna had wanted to talk to you about those things, she would.
Abby Wambach:
All these fake names are confusing.
Glennon Doyle:
I know Joanna, Gina, whatever. But what we do know for sure is today Joanna’s going to Joanna.
Abby Wambach:
She’s going to Joanna
Amanda Doyle:
10 times out of 10.
Glennon Doyle:
We’re going to hear from a write in. Go ahead, babe. Can you read it for us?
Abby Wambach:
Yes. I’m a terrible reader, but here we go. Hi, Glennon, Amanda, and Abby.
Glennon Doyle:
Nailed it.
Abby Wambach:
Thank you so much for this podcast. I look forward to each new episode. You are just wonderful. So, here’s my hard thing, the holidays and family of origin expectations. I love my siblings so much, but when it comes to the holidays my husband and I prefer to keep it small and celebrate with just our children, and often my widowed mother-in-law. Some of my siblings see this as a rejection and one even told me this was proof that she loves our siblings more than I do. And family means more to her than it does to me, that hurt. What do you do when what you want does not meet the expectations of your family of origin or when it changes loved one’s experiences of important things like holidays? Many thanks.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Well, I think this is a super important question. First of all, we really need you to listen to the Tuesday episode, the holiday hacks, the Tuesday episode. But I really think that one of the reasons the holidays are so tricky to navigate is because one of the trickiest things in life is to figure out what we owe our family of origin and what we owe ourselves. And where is that Venn diagram and what patterns, what do we owe them, and what do we want to take that they’ve given us? And what do we want to leave behind? And what do we want to challenge? And what do we want to let go? And how much of what they tell us we have to do? Do we believe, right? And what is love and what is codependency? What is love and what is just doing what people tell us to do because that’s not love, and what is freedom and what…
Glennon Doyle:
So, it sounds to me like this write in person that her sister has some pain and issues. Someone who says to you that your decisions mean you don’t love as much as she does. It sounds like she has a lot to work out. I love so much Ashley Ford always says, “My job is to figure out what I need, but my job is not to handle what everyone else feels about that need.” And we talk about that a lot too sissy with the really tricky part of boundaries. We all think that setting boundaries is the hard thing. It is not. Setting boundaries is dealing with everyone else’s reaction. The hardest part of setting boundaries is part two. It’s dealing with everybody’s reaction and feelings about that boundary we set.
Glennon Doyle:
Anybody can set a boundary, but staying strong and calm and loving in the storm after, right? Because what setting a boundary is doing is it’s challenging a pattern that has been working for everyone else at the expense of you. And so, of course, it’s going to cause ripples. Of course, people are going to have feelings when we change anything people are going to respond. What I’ve seen over and over again work is feeling very responsible for setting the boundary and then handling lightly whatever reactions come after that. Because when we don’t freak out, and defend ourselves, and defend ourselves, and defend ourselves, what we find is that the post storm generally calms if we don’t feed it more.
Abby Wambach:
Something that you said made me feel like, oh, what do we owe our families of origin? That is a really good question to ask because there’s some of us, myself included, feels and has felt in her life that I owe my family of origin everything. I think that that’s just something that was planted in my mind that I planted in my own mind. And guess what, if you plant that idea in your own mind, you can also take it away because nobody else is doing that. You’re doing that. You choose. You get to choose what do we owe our families of origin? That is a beautiful question to answer.
Glennon Doyle:
At the end of the day don’t we owe them our wholeness, and our freedom, and our mental health? Isn’t the best way to honor our parents to trust the woman they raised, ourselves. What were you going to say, sis?
Amanda Doyle:
I think it’s interesting because I think most people would say what we owe our families is to love them, but that is only half the answer because this woman’s sister is saying, “I love them. I love my siblings more than you.” And she could become at that very, very honestly. It depends what her definition of love is. If love to many people means maintaining everyone’s expectations. Love means not disappointing. Love means not upsetting you. Love means… So, it really, you got to go a level deeper. She might truly 100% believe she loves her siblings born because she is not willing to disappoint them. She is going to keep doing the exact same thing to show her love, and the fact that her sister has opted out of that is evidence that she does not love them as much because she’s able to disappoint her.
Glennon Doyle:
So you can all be telling the truth.
Amanda Doyle:
You can all be telling the truth.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, and especially if you mean by love, many people mean which love equals catering to status quo. Love means catering to status quo. Love means not rocking the boat.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, that really rings true.
Glennon Doyle:
I think that’s cheap. My opinion is that, that is too easy. Love is muscular, and hard, and messy, and I think love does disappoint, especially when what we’re disappointing is dynamics that we have decided that are not healing and healthy for us. I would just end to this write in person that I feel that she’s-
Abby Wambach:
Or they-
Glennon Doyle:
… leaps and bounds. Yes, or they is leaps and bounds into their untaming to even say, when it comes to holidays, my husband and I prefer to keep it small and celebrate with just our children, and often my widowed mother-in-law. This write in person knows what they want.
Amanda Doyle:
They’ve already asked the what if, and then-
Abby Wambach:
They’re already trying to figure out.
Amanda Doyle:
And then they’ve experimented with it. And now they’ve arrived at the place where like, “No, I know this is what I want.”
Glennon Doyle:
So, they’re in part two.
Abby Wambach:
And they’re trying to figure out how to deal with the repercussions of the boundary setting.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
That’s exactly what you said. I love it.
Amanda Doyle:
And there’s plenty, there’s same amount of people on the other side of this. There’s same amount of people who are watching the people that they love choose other things and are viewing it as a rejection of them and their thing. It isn’t just because someone is choosing something else for this season that they’re in for what they need or for forever that it doesn’t mean they are rejecting you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, that’s right.
Abby Wambach:
They’re just going towards themselves.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Abby Wambach:
And that’s always good.
Glennon Doyle:
And that’s another freedom we can give. I’m so glad you brought that up, sister. I always assume I’m on the side of the making of the boundary and dealing with everyone else’s because usually I am, but wow. Honoring other people’s boundaries is a really cool thing that we can do. We can do, too.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. We’re going to move on to our pod squadder of the week on Thanksgiving. Please, our Thanksgiving pod squatter, who we’re so grateful for.
Jesse:
Hi, Glennon Doyle. My name is Jesse. I’m one of your biggest fans, and I have a hard question for you. How does one reconnect with their estranged family after a really harsh coming out process? How does one learn to love themselves again when they think they’re unlovable? As I approach the holiday season without any family, it’s you, and your words, and your mission, and your love, and authenticity that keeps me going, and keeps me smiling, and keeps strong on the hardest of days. I truly, truly hope someday to have the honor and privilege to just share a cup of coffee or something. I’m sending you so much love and so much light. Thanks so much.
Abby Wambach:
Jesse.
Glennon Doyle:
Jesse.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, my eyes are watering. Just it’s just bringing me straight right back to the time when I came out to my mom and feeling so scared to then go be a different person for the holidays. Because now I’m this gay person, and knowing that you might not be completely accepted by your family, whether you’re completely out to all the extended family members because in the gay community, too, when you come out… Like if you come out to a grandparent, that’s pretty fucking cool. As an OG, old school gay, you just let your grandparents die before you came out. You just didn’t want to deal with it. Right. You didn’t want them to think differently of you.
Glennon Doyle:
So, that was like a hardcore gay if you told your grandma?
Abby Wambach:
If you came out to a grandparent, you were hardcore.
Glennon Doyle:
I wish I could have come out to my grandma, Alice. One thing I want to say to Jesse is it sounds like you… This feels recent. There’s something that I’ve learned in my very new part, being part of the queer family, the international queer family, the queer family of Earth, which is this, there’s this unbelievably beautiful very family-like bond that happens among queer people that is unlike anything else I’ve ever seen. The struggle and the pain that you’re going through right now with what you’re calling estrangement from your family, that deep rejection is what drives this unbelievable connection that will happen between you and the other, the chosen family that you will make in the queer community because they also come with the intense pain of that. The little rejections and the big rejections that happen along the way.
Abby Wambach:
Shared experience.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, which makes people in the queer family the best, most beautiful, most loving, most loyal people, and I know you’re going to find family like you’ve never found family before, and Jesse,-
Abby Wambach:
One thing I also just want to say is just to make sure you’re safe. I think that there’s of-
Glennon Doyle:
There’s a lot of social crab right now.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. There’s a lot of gay folks that are going to maybe scary environments or into dangerous situations, whether it be for your physical safety and also your mental safety. Those dog whistles, those little comments. If that is not going to keep you safe, completely find a queer family to go be safe with.
Glennon Doyle:
We love you Jesse, and please call back so we can get your phone number and we can have coffee.
Amanda Doyle:
We are not asking that question of this day, Jesse. You are loved and you are perfect, and that estrangement from your is not an answer to a question we’re asking.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, you are responsible for your truth. You’re responsible for sharing it when it’s safe. You are not responsible for how anybody else reacts to that. You did your job.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
You stay in your worthiness and your beauty. We love you Jesse. And to the rest of you, when all else fails, we’ve given you our best. Here’s what I know about when all else fails. There’s this little strategy our family has. It’s called the dance party. When shit hits the fan. When you try to use all of our brilliant hacks and it all still goes wrong, I want you to think of three songs today. Before we begin all the shenanigans that are going to bring you deep joy or healing or comfort or distraction, whatever it is you are going to need today. And I want you to have them on one of those little fancy playlists in the cloud or wherever they live. And when all else goes wrong, when your children are sucking, or when you’re in-laws are whatever, you’re going to just turn on the music.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my gosh-
Glennon Doyle:
You’re going to turn on the music.
Abby Wambach:
This is a challenge. Let us challenge the pod squatters that how funny would it be is if we got a bunch of videos from the pod squad of there’d be this really awkward moment happening in a family holiday situation. And then all of a sudden you’re just like, “Just dance.” And then everybody’s looking around and then maybe people start dancing a little bit. This is the new holiday challenge.
Glennon Doyle:
We’ll call it the song that saved me. We want to know after Thanksgiving, what was it? The song that saved me, and we will also share ours when we come back. When all else fails, you’re going to sing it out, dance it out. Music will save us. We love you so much. We’re going to see you on the other side of this holiday, and then we’re going to get through the rest of the holidays together.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
When the holidays get impossible and you know that they will-
Amanda Doyle:
Be unsurprised.
Glennon Doyle:
Be unsurprised, and remember, we can do impossible things. We love you. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn’t, don’t worry about it. It’s fine.