GABRIELLE UNION: Infertility, Bonus Parents & Free Families
November 16, 2021
Glennon Doyle:
So pod squad, Get Untamed the Journal is out today
Abby Wambach:
Get it.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m actually really excited about this.
Abby Wambach:
I am too, it’s amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
I know. I feel like it’s an experiment for people to do in their own homes and lives. So I was thinking this morning about how when Untamed came out it was such a strange and weird time. And of course you know this, I thought no one on earth would read it because it was beginning of the pandemic. And it turned out to be something that people really depended on, which was kind of a beautiful thing for me. So now, Get Untamed the Journal is coming out at this interesting time where we’re all kind of trying to decide what we’re going to build next. What I love about it is that I think instead of figuring out what we’re going to build next, we kind of have to figure out from where we’re going to build, and so many women especially struggle to know who we are because we’ve spent so much time trying to please others. So I’m excited for people to tell me how this journal works in their lives. And listen, we all know every freaking life is an unprecedented experiment, so I certainly don’t have any answers, but in the journal I kind of collected the right questions that I think will maybe help guide you toward the answers that are already inside of you.
Glennon Doyle:
So, give it a try, I want to know how it goes. I want this to be a conversation just like everything else. But first, order it today at getuntamedjournal.com, or head over to your local independent book store or wherever you shop for books. All right, let’s start a very exciting show.
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome loves to We Can Do Hard Things. You’re in for a treat today. We have a very special human being with us today, I would say one of my very favorite public women in the world.
Abby Wambach:
Cool.
Glennon Doyle:
I first remember encountering Gabrielle Union a long, long time ago. I was watching some kind of interview and I was much younger than I am today, and I remember distinctly Gabrielle Union being the first woman I ever saw speak vulnerably and powerfully about being a survivor of sexual assault. And it’s seared into my memory. And then she went on to do all the things. Let me just read just a few, here’s a few of the things. Gabrielle Union is an actress, executive producer, activist, best selling author, and Times 100 cover honoree. She will next be seen in Disney’s remake of Cheaper by the Dozen, I’m very excited about that, developed by Kenya Barris for Disney Plus. In May of 2021, Gabrielle released in partnership with her husband Dwayne Wade, her second children’s book, Shady Baby. Let us please just talk about Kaavia the shady baby all day long. She’s one of my favorite Instagram followers. It’s Gabrielle Union’s, not her but her daughter.
Glennon Doyle:
You Got Anything Stronger which is in my hand right now and highlighted to death, was released in September. In August of 2020, Gabrielle relaunched her hair care brand Flawless by Gabrielle Union for women with textured hair. Prior to relaunching Flawless, Union co-founded Bitsy’s with the goal of making healthy snacks that are accessible and affordable for all families regardless of their socioeconomic or geographical status. Gabrielle serves as an advocate for inclusion in the entertainment industry and she is a champion of breast health and combating sexual violence. Gabrielle, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Gabrielle can do freaking hard things.
Abby Wambach:
I mean get out of here with that bio.
Gabrielle Union:
Oh my god. I was like, “Did my mom write that bio?” She’s like, “And when she was eight she saved a cat.” Thank you guys for having me. I have to say, there was one request when my book tour started and they usually say, “Who do you want to avoid?” And I’m like, “Nobody, I’ll talk to anybody.” They’re like, “Is there anyone that you absolutely want to talk to?” And I was like, “Please, Jesus, Glennon, please, please, please.”
Glennon Doyle:
Are you serious?
Gabrielle Union:
Yes, I begged. I begged and I begged and I begged. You have no idea. My girlfriend gave me Untamed, and probably on like page two I had already underlined so many things and I just kept calling her. She’s like, “I have a job, man.” And I’m like, “I know, but we have to talk about this. I’m in a cage, I’m pacing.” It arrived at a time where I was circling the drain and it just saved me and I just have to thank you and I’ve just been a fan of both of you. Yeah, I’m going to try not to fan out and be a weirdo.
Glennon Doyle:
I have to tell you, I had the same experience with your book. I remember having that conversation with my friend Austin Channing Brown, we were both in the middle of the book, and we called each other and we’re like, “Holy shit. She’s saying the true things.” I just kept being more surprised and more surprised every chapter by how honest you were in this book. I loved it so freaking much. But I have to tell you, before we even got this book in the mail, You Got Anything Stronger, Abby and I have been, I don’t know what the word would be, moved, inspired, by your family. We’ve been watching, we’ve been reading Instagram captions aloud to each other. We see how boldly, our biggest dream for our family is that everyone in our family feels both held and free. Held by each other but also free to be their full selves. And you are modeling that so well with your children. And we’ll get to that in a second. But when I read the first chapter or several chapters of this book, I knew not only did I need to know you personally but also have you on, because so many of our listeners deal with infertility. It’s I think the top thing that people write to me and say, “Please talk about this,” because so many people are suffering experiencing infertility. And you write about it so honestly and so beautiful.
Glennon Doyle:
Gabrielle, you said, “The reason I can’t tell you how many miscarriages I’ve had is that my life became one long loss. I numbed myself, growing used to the fact that life is not a series of heartbreaks but an unending of failure and rejection. The worst thing about hope is that it remains to taunt you, just out of reach.” I love that, by the way, because people are always talking about hope as a good thing, but actually hope is what kicks your ass.
Gabrielle Union:
Absolutely, because hope keeps you on the line. It’s the carrot that you’re sort of chasing after. Because we talk about hope as if its our salvation. As long as you have hope, you’ll be okay. A long as you have an idea that there can be something different or better or change or evolution. Yes, so absolutely, there is the possibility of better days, but sometimes hope is fool’s gold and our ideas around what hope can do, I think we need to shift those a bit and be a little bit more honest about what it means to dive headfirst into a shallow pool of hope. You’re not going to come out okay, you’re not. There will be injury, some that you can see, some that you will feel spiritually forever, for a life time. But we need to know that, that hope isn’t the cure all, the salvation for every one of life’s ills. It just kind of keeps you in the game where you’re like, “Maybe this time, I don’t know, I don’t know.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, that’s why it’s like a Buddhist principal of abandoning hope. I’m going to say that wrong and everyone’s going to write to me about it, but the idea that the hope is, “Am i going to be okay eventually?”
Gabrielle Union:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I’m going to be okay eventually. But the hope is not, “I’m going to still get this thing that I want so bad.”
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Gabrielle Union:
Well, [crosstalk 00:09:14] what we think of hope as, logically, practically, I think we look at hope as the dream. You can hope and you dream, you kind of use those interchangeably. I you remove hope from your life, you don’t exist. If you remove dreams from your life, you don’t exist. I think we just need different language so we can be completely honest. Like I want better, I want more, I want different. But I recognize that it might not be the end all be all that I had chalked it all up to be. I used to want a young man with bow legs, I had hope that if a man with bow legs just entered my life, life would change. To this day, I have hope that if I can learn to twerk, that my life will change. The world will open up to me. Maybe I need some different hopes, or maybe I need some different language surrounding some of these things.
Glennon Doyle:
The infertility in particular is so interesting to me because you were so honest when you were writing about how it felt like failure. And this always fascinates me about women, all these things that happen to us that have nothing to do with our control, we can’t control them, but because of what society tells us we’re supposed to be, they feel like failures. You said, “If I could get pregnant, I would forever shake of the distrust society has for women who for whatever reason, by choice or by nature, do not have babies. The murmur of the unseen crowd came to me, this woman is such a failure.” Can you talk, I just want people who are listening to feel seen by this, I don’t know, would you call it a struggle, or this long period in your life when you were trying for this thing that you wanted so bad and couldn’t get.
Gabrielle Union:
Yeah, fertility is a journey. Like when they say journey, that’s exactly what it is. I have our miracle child, Miss Kaavia James, she’s amazing. But there’s that thing in the back of my head every month. I just turned 40 now, I don’t know how many eggs are left, they could be filled with dust, I don’t know. But every month when my period comes, to this day, it feels like a little death and it feels like my body failed me, it feels like the world failed me, it feels like every system that I bought into desperately and totally, it was all BS, it was all bullshit. Because we tell kids, “You do the right things, you get good grades, you’re a good person, you’re helpful, you’re compassionate, you like your mother, whatever, you’re good people, good things are going to happen.” And you just sort of assume, “I’m not going to have any trouble, I’m a good person.” They tell you to eat basically weeds and take your supplements and whatever and then you’re preparing your body for the life, and what if you do all of those things and it doesn’t fucking happen? What are you left with but feeling of failure? You either get it done, or you don’t.
Gabrielle Union:
And Abby, you can speak to this as an athlete, I grew up as an athlete, my dad is very, I don’t know if you guys are familiar with Bobby Knight, he was a famed basketball coach, Indiana, who was notorious as being a big psycho. Some say passionate, some say toxic and abusive, I think there’s a legal trail behind that man. But my dad thought Bobby Knight was the messiah and he raised the three of us girls with Bobby Knight mentality, with a hard fist, everything is black and white you put in the work, you should win. Which is, you could put in all the work and you never win. But I took that mentality into every area of my life, and when you take that mentality into fertility, “I’m doing all the things, I’m making my appointments, I’m doing the shots,” I stopped trusting myself to do the IVF shots, I hired the nurse from the clinic to come to my house. By I’m like, “Why are you trusting me with such a big task and a big part of this journey? I don’t trust myself, I’m clearly not getting it done. I’m clearly a loser, I’m clearly a failure.”
Gabrielle Union:
And then it feels public, when you get married or you’re in the committed relationship and the question is always, “When are you guys going to have kids?” If someone loves your love, they want that love to spread and to create more children. And so the questions are nonstop. And when you are someone that is known or in the spotlight, it’s literally millions of people who are invested in you not getting your period and you creating this life and being able to hold this life and doing all the right things to show that you deserve this like and that you are worthy of this life. And when it doesn’t happen, it feels like this public flogging, this public emotional flogging, it is emotional chaos that honestly I probably didn’t do a great job of it because it’s so big. You’re so covered in shame like syrup that you can’t get out from underneath it and it just feels like everyone can see everything. They can see your failure, they can see that you’re a loser, they can see inside of your womb and inside of your heart to know you don’t deserve it and that you must be doing something that is effecting your ability. But it all comes down to you, like character issues, like character flaws. And it just feels like death every month.
Abby Wambach:
What you just said was so profound for me because when we got together, I came into this marriage with, her and Craig had three children, and my dream was to have a child of my own. And over time, I realize that wasn’t what this family was about, that was actually preventing me from getting close to these other children, these children that I want to bring into my own heart. But what you just said, every month when I get my period, there’s a moment that I experience with myself and I’m sure whether you are trying to have a baby and cannot or when you are choosing to not have a baby, I’m sure that that monthly reminder of your uterus being, and I’ll say it for myself, feeling like my uterus was worthless. Like what the fuck was all of these periods for? What was all of this? I mean, listen, it’s not easy to get your period every freaking month, there’s a lot of drama that goes into it and stress and money and pain. I mean the pain, the cramps, all of it, it just feels like what was this all for?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, good call.
Glennon Doyle:
I loved this part where I was trying to figure out this in my own life, where you said Gabrielle, you’re still trying to find the difference, when do you know when to stop trying? Especially if your dad loved Bobby Knight. My dad was a football coach, so I’m with you, no pain no gain, no guts no glory, it’s too far from the heart to hurt, it’s time for a hail Mary, your book was so full of sports metaphors that I actually had to ask Abby about a lot of things. So I loved the part where you had to decide where was the line between continuing to try or go a different right. And you said, “I’m still trying to learn the difference between resilient and neglecting my emotional reality.”
Gabrielle Union:
Listen, I wish I had the complete answer, but the reality is I still struggle with this. And the choice was kind of made, not kind of, it was my husband who had been along on this journey, and we were going through our own thing that made this journey feel so much more public and so much more fraught with chaos and scrutiny. And by the time we got the diagnosis and finally someone was like, “Oh girl, you got adenomyosis, I don’t know what you were thinking was going to happen. Your adenomyosis is in a part of your uterus where most implantation occurs. And what it does, is as the embryo implants and tries to grow, the adenomyosis covers it like a blob. And the only hope for you to carry a baby to term would be to try this drug Lupron, and Lupron gives you a 30% chance of carrying a baby to term. But the fun part of Lupron is that it throws your body into early menopause and kind of makes your bones super brittle.” So I was like, “What? I could break bones and still not be able to have a baby? Sounds perfect.” And my husband was like, “Ma’am, enough.” He threw in the towel. And it felt very much like, I am full of sports metaphors and references, but that moment of he’s like Apollo Creed’s manager that’s watching him die.
Abby Wambach:
That’s a Rocky movie, babe.
Glennon Doyle:
I get it. [crosstalk 00:19:31]
Gabrielle Union:
In Rocky III, and he’s fighting Clubber Lang. My infertility was like Clubber Lang and my ass was Apollo Creed and D is the manager like, “That’s it, I’m throwing in the towel.” And he’s like, “No.” Cut to, he’s dead, RIP Apollo Creed. But I just didn’t want to give up. And if there was a chance, 30%, might as well be 110%, I’m going for it. And D was like, “You’ve done enough.” And there was the logical part of my brain that was trying to fight its way out, that’s like, “Ma’am, you squashed me for long enough, might I make an appearance?” And I’m like, “Ooh, logic, how are you?” And it’s like stop, it’s enough, you’ve reached the end of the rope. But my emotional side was like, “You mother fucker? You are going to be the one to tell me I’ve done enough?” So it was a decision that was sort of foisted upon me and I begrudgingly accepted it.
Gabrielle Union:
And I don’t know, through a lot of therapy and Brené Brown Ted Talks and podcasts and books. I read certain little excerpts at the right time just like when I read your book at the right time when I’m circling the drain. And she was like, “Vulnerability is a super power. Vulnerability is where it’s at.” And throughout this whole thing, I’m holding it all in because I’m enveloped in shame and humiliation. Every period was humiliating. Every time my body betrayed me it was shame. And here is this woman, this gift, saying, “Yeah, it sucks. But what if you were honest about it? What if you just told the fucking truth about what you feel to everybody and you release the shame and you release the humiliation?” Because I thought those things were protecting me from reality, they’re not. It’s a delay from reality, it kind of morphs reality, it’s going to look a thousand times worse than it actually is when it’s framed through the prism of shame and humiliation, but when you embrace the truth and radical transparency, holy shit, I freed myself. I freed myself to exist as I actually was.
Gabrielle Union:
And at that time, I was broken, and I had to be okay with being broken but kind of committing to, “Maybe I don’t need to stay here.” Being vulnerable isn’t just like, “Yeah, girl, this shit sucks. I feel terrible and I’m just going to be here forever. Feel free to circle back and throw a dime in my cup.” Vulnerability made me want to get help. Vulnerability made me want to seek community and talk to other people who are in this fucked up space like, “Tell me how you got out. This is where I’m at, this is what I’m dealing with. How did you see the light? How did you get there? Even if there wasn’t a baby at the end of it, how did you get there?” And what I realized is when you embrace radical transparency it breeds community, but when you embrace the lie and you embrace caginess and being vague and silence, it breeds isolation.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. I learned that, Gabrielle, in recovery. Walking into recovery meetings and sitting in those circles, and then it’s like you have that uncomfortable truth part where you’re actually doing the thing, but then what’s so cool after these recovery meetings is you go outside and see all these, well they’re always like chugging Mountain Dews and smoking cigarettes because that’s what we have to do for a long while, but the joy and the community and the release that is the vibe after those meetings is because of that, it’s because you feel free and it’s just this magical connection.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, one person tells a truth and it makes somebody go, “Oh, I’m less alone inside of my thought of shame of humiliation.” It’s like if you can get comfortable being vulnerable, that is the freedom, because then you find all the other people that, what Glennon always says is they come around and they just start saying, “Me too, me too, me too.” And you find your people and you feel less lonely and then you’ve also released this shame and humiliation that is just made up inside of you. You’re an inspiration.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, she is. If you all want to know the actual level of truth, because one of the things I love about you in general and of course the way you wrote the book is that there’s no moment, I’m so wary of the Cinderella stories where it’s like, “This was so, so hard and now.” Right? Like so many people even think they have to write books that way. And then it always sounds like bullshit.
Gabrielle Union:
Because it is.
Glennon Doyle:
Because it is. Because what you’re talking about hope also. “Well, I’ll be okay once I have the baby. I’ll be okay once I find the love of my life. I’ll be okay once…” And then the once, you keep landing there and you keep freaking being yourself and then it’ just a total, like the chasing of the carrot can be forever, so the truth that you bring in this book, can you talk to us, you had a “there she is” moment, which actually freaked me out because the “there she is” moment from Untamed is the most important moment of my life. But this is the moment where you first saw Kaavia as a little heartbeat.
Abby Wambach:
On one of those sonogram pictures?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, yes, yes. Natalie, who was your surrogate, laid down for Dr. Beck to pass the ultrasound wand over the bump. “There she is,” she said. And she was there, here, this very clear little baby in there. And you go on to say, “Dwayne took my hand and there was so much happiness on his face, I lost it. My cry was a choke stopped up in my throat, tears streaming down, it was grief.” Can you tell us about that? That moment where should have, this is life, should be joy, should be joy, it’s joy, it’s also grief.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Gabrielle Union:
Yeah. There are similar feelings in that moment to feelings of infidelity when you are like, “Well, what does she have that I didn’t have? What do they have that I didn’t have? And what can I do to be more like that?” So as I’m looking at the screen and it’s life, this life has been created, I’m looking at the chick that got it done. I’m looking at the mother fucker that had the goods to get it done. And it just again felt like humiliation and shame and worthlessness. And yeah, I just couldn’t get past that, that someone else had to be called in to get it done. Like to this day, I watch baseball and when they call up a pinch hitter, in my heart, this is terrible, I’m being honest, I’m like, “I hope they whiff.” I don’t care if it’s my team, I want the guy that got subbed out to have that moment of like, “See, he couldn’t get it done either.” I am so grateful that Kaavia James is here. But in that moment, watching someone else get it done and watching someone else provide this joy for my man and our family that I felt removed from was excruciating.
Gabrielle Union:
And all of the surrogacy stories that I read about were just pure gratefulness and moonlight and roses and unicorns and shit. And I was like, “Oh now I’m a bad person, I’m definitely not worthy of being this little miracle’s mother. I’m an actual asshole. I shouldn’t be allowed around human beings. I have these thoughts.” But that’s the reality of where I was at, that is my truth. And if I’m going to keep it [inaudible 00:28:40], a lot of people when we’re really honest, other women, other families who’ve gone through surrogacy journeys talk about that. You’re not allowed to talk about it, certainly not publicly. When you take the baby to the first family gathering, it’s got to be all moonlight and roses and just pure gratitude. But when we’re allowed those honest moments where we’re just talking amongst our little crew of people who know this intimately, some of us had feelings of like just negative feelings toward the surrogate because it was a reflection, it was a mirror of how we felt about ourselves.
Gabrielle Union:
Some people didn’t want to talk to their surrogate or see their surrogate because watching life grow outside of your body, your child growing outside of your body, these nine, 10 month are supposed to be when you bond with your baby, and here you are, you’re removed from it, you’re no better than the husband, you’re no better than the other spouse where it’s happening outside of your body, you’re both at the same place. And mothers are supposed to be ahead of fathers in that way. And he was a teen parent so he’s been a parent over half his life, my husband. And I’m like, “I didn’t even babysit.” I was like, “I’ll mow your lawn, don’t give me your kids. No thank you. I’ll clean the gutters before I watch your kids.” And just everything was just foreign and there was so much shame and hurt watching someone else get it done that yeah, it just was a walking, breathing monument of my failure. And everyone was celebrating her, and here I was struggling with my feelings. But when I talk to their families and we’re being honest, I know I’m not alone. But it really comes down to it’s a reflection, it’s all a reflection of how we feel about ourselves and those feeling that we don’t allow to see the light of day that we keep pressed down because of shame and because of our fear of humiliation and our fear of judgment.
Glennon Doyle:
I love it. That is the kind of vulnerability and honesty that changes lives and frees people because women are allowed to say, “It was very sad. And then it was very happy. And I’m grateful.” That’s the storyline we’re allowed. So to say it was sad and infuriating and I was jealous, to say all of it like you’re saying [crosstalk 00:31:14]
Abby Wambach:
And also still might be sad and jealous, so there still might be those feelings. Like even though Kaavia’s with you and Dwayne and you guys are living your life, I think that there still might be some of those feelings that have continued on, even if you go to therapy. You’re like, “Fuck, I’m still sad.”
Gabrielle Union:
I am still sad.
Glennon Doyle:
And you’ve got a lot of complicated beautiful parenting going on, Gabrielle.
Gabrielle Union:
That is the nicest way anyone has ever put that. Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
And I love it, I love it so much. Can we go back and just flag something that you said earlier? When people love your love, they want it to expand. I cannot stand when people say anything about are you going to have a baby, but that is the most generous, I’m going to remember that forever. Okay. You are a step parent.
Gabrielle Union:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Can you tell us a little bit about, well actually you wanted to ask questions, go ahead. I should probably let you since you are the actual step parent.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, one of the things that I go through in my life that I could relate with you I think is this idea of step parenting. And I never really quite liked the word itself, step parent, and I think the way that I watch you interact and stand with and stand up for Zaire and Zaya, I think that it’s just astonishing to do it in such a public way. I feel like I’ve felt so much of what you have been going through. You said in your book that you kept a fence up between you and them and I would love to know a little bit more about that, because I can relate. I’m just curious to know what you think about that.
Gabrielle Union:
yeah, I was an adult child of divorce. So my parents were married almost 30 years and they got divorced after almost 30 years and I was in college. So all of a sudden, I’m a grown ass person, well you’re a kid on college, but I’m an adult, and here I am having to deal with this new terminology for this other grown ass woman that’s now saying, “I’m your step mom.” And I was like, “I’m going to call you your name and you call me my name, but that’s stupid.” And to this day, I refer to her as my dad’s wife and her name. I don’t use the phrase step mom. And so when I first started dating Dwayne, obviously I knew he had children, and then he very quickly went through a very public custody battle. And to this day I’m kind of like, “This is kind of wild.” You were a single NBA player who got full custody of small children. It’s not common.
Gabrielle Union:
But yeah, so all of a sudden it was like Monday we were just this carefree couple, I had gotten divorced a few years prior and I was enjoying my life, let us just put it that way, we were fully enjoying all of the things. And then Tuesday, the kids arrived, on a dime. The ruling came down and here are these kids, and they need guidance and they need parenting. And we weren’t married at that point, so I was just this additional adult in their life that I wanted to make sure that I was consistent in their lives. Whatever personality that I was trying on that day, or whoever I was, I just needed to be consistent so they could get used to me. They’ve already gone through so much upheaval moving states away, not knowing anyone, having gone through the trauma of divorce. And I knew I needed to be consistent, but I just didn’t know what my role was. And so by the time they proposed to me, because it was D and the kids proposing to me, I knew that when I married him I was marrying them. The step parent label was put on me by the kids’ school because you have to describe yourself, like who are you if you are not their mother?
Abby Wambach:
Got, that’s so annoying.
Gabrielle Union:
It’s very annoying. And it’s not a word I would use. There’s something about the second you say step parent, step mother, step father, it’s just thank you Disney for making us the worst villains ever.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. The wicked witch of the West.
Gabrielle Union:
Yeah, it’s terrible. So you’re automatically going into with a, “Hmm,” kind of vibe, like, “Let’s see what this mother fucker’s going to say.” And so you’re already behind the eight ball. So what I realized very quickly is you will never, ever, I don’t care if the other parent is dead, you will never be able to replace that other parent. Don’t try to replace that other parent, that is not your job. Your job is to be consistent. Like if you’re a disciplinarian in your own life, continue to be that. Don’t be sometimey, as the kids say, just be consistent so they know who you are. And kids adapt, whatever, don’t put on a weird act that you cannot keep up. Be consistent, understand that you are never going to be their parent but you can be a consistent, loving, compassionate adult in their life that they can always count on.
Gabrielle Union:
And you need to be the sanctuary in the storm. It is not your job to offer commentary about the noncustodial parent. It is not your job to point children in the direction of the truth that you feel like is going to set you free but burden them with knowledge that they don’t really need, especially children. And always remember that there is a gap in ages for a reason. One of y’all is the adult, and then there are children, and you always need to be the responsible adult that knows better. The high road is empty because it sucks, but when it comes to the peace and sanctity of your children’s lives, as much as I hate it, I will only take the high road when it comes to the kids and protecting their peace and their grace.
Glennon Doyle:
That sounds good. [crosstalk 00:38:06]
Gabrielle Union:
All others, meet me on the low ground because we will be fighting bare knuckle brawl. But with their peace, it’s like don’t take family stuff or the past marriage relationship stuff and make it current topics in their presence, that is not your lane. And I just talk about staying in my lane. My lane is to be consistent and a sanctuary in the storm and to just be an additional set of eyes and ears to help them be amazing people.
Abby Wambach:
Amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
And I think what’s so wild and why everyone really needs to read this book is that what Gabrielle is saying, she actually shows. When you talk about a sanctuary, you are such and are such a sanctuary for Zaya, and this is how we always liked you but we fell deeply in love with you and your family watching you lead the way with little Zaya. So one of my favorite parts of the book, which there are many, is when you’re preparing Dwayne for Zaya to tell him that she, I think this isn’t when she came out as gay but when she came out as trans, you said to Dwayne, “I need you to practice your listening face. I need open face, eyebrows up like, ‘Oh, this is a pleasant discovery.'” And then you go on to say, which I love so much, “This test wasn’t about Zaya, it was about who he was as a father.
Abby Wambach:
That is right.
Gabrielle Union:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes. Your kids are your kids. They are who they are. But this was when Zaya came out as gay at the time, it was a very quick transition. She had different language, so only knew the language that she knew at that time, so she came out as gay in the third grade, and she had done this school project about identity and it was a picture of her in the middle and he had all these spokes and, “I’m a middle child, I’m this,” she also said she was Native American and we’re like, “Ma’am, that’s not what the 23 and Me said.” And then she said, “I’m gay.” And her teacher, who is an amazing lesbian in Chicago, she was like, “Okay, this is amazing. Don’t know if this information is safe with the other parents,” because this project was going up for back to school night or open house or whatever it is. So the other parents were going to be touring the classroom, and because we are both in the spotlight, her concern was that Zaya’s privacy and her peace would not be respected and maybe some folks might use her truth as conversation starters, as folks do. So she gave us the heads up that this was happening and I was like, “Perfect. I’ve seen this coming for a while,” and I was like, “Welcome.”
Gabrielle Union:
But with Dwayne, my mom took us to out first gay pride parade in ’82 when we moved to San Francisco, and she brought us these stickers that said, “Straight but not narrow minded.” And my mom is like a super duper catholic, like teaches CCD, all of her friends are priests and nuns, she’s that kind of catholic, and we’re from Omaha Nebraska, the North side, so it’s just even smaller. But her thing was, “I’ve always wanted to raise my girls with a global perspective, not a town perspective.” And she was like, “And now we’re in the Bay Area and there’s all these amazing communities and I want you to see it all and experience it all and get in there.” So that’s how I was raised, that’s just sort of how I was raised, but Dwayne, maybe a little different on the South side of Chicago. His mom is a pastor and in sport there is, as you know, there’s just a lot of bigotry. A lot of bigotry, a lot of fear, a lot of hatred, a lot of ignorance, people say a lot of stupid crap. And when we first got together, I have a gaggle of friends in the LGBTQIA community, and he was like, “Oh yeah, every day you’re going to be in the community, so I need you to get comfortable.”
Glennon Doyle:
Every day. [crosstalk 00:42:32] tired every day Gabrielle, I got to tell you.
Gabrielle Union:
My best friends in the world, so they’re around a lot. And he was like, “Oh wait, are you sure so and so is gay?” And I was like, “Get this, there’s all kinds of gay guys. Gay guys just like you, there’s gay guys on your team.” He’s like, “What?” I’m like, “Yeah. And guess what? You’re not their type.” Anyways. So it was an education constantly throughout our relationship, and so when I knew that Zaya was coming home to share her truth with us, I also knew that D’s listening face, he listens like he’s listening to a coach, and it’s not like you’re listening like you’re in the huddle and you’re like, “Yeah, tell us about that play Spoelstra, this sounds amazing.” The eyebrows aren’t up, the face isn’t open, he just scrunchy face and the whole thing. And I was like, “So when Zaya tells you, I need open face, eyebrows up, smile.” And he’s like, “Okay, okay, okay.”
Gabrielle Union:
So Zaya comes home and she is shaking, she’s just shaking, she has no idea what our reaction is going to be, which to me I was like, “Damn, I feel unsafe to this child, and I thought I was doing all the right things.” But I let you know, as much as you think you’re doing, you probably really aren’t doing shit. And she’s turning into my just bawling and I was like, “What is it, baby? What is it?” And she was like, “I’m gay.” And I said, “Oh my gosh, this is wonderful, we’re going to celebrate, this is so awesome, I’m so happy that you told us, this is so great.” And I was like, “Do you think you can tell dad?” And she was like, “I don’t know, I don’t know.” And I was like, “I think dad might surprise you.” So D comes in from practice and he’s still got the D face on which is kind of scrunched face, eyebrows, looking like a villain. And I’m behind Zaya like, “Come on,” looking psychotic. And now he’s putting on this weird face and Zaya’s like, “Now you look nuts. I don’t even know what to say to you.” But she told D, and D was like, “This is so wonderful. I’m so happy for you. I’m so proud of you.”
Gabrielle Union:
And then she was like, “Hmm, maybe I can tell others.” And she had this list called the never ever list, the people that she never wanted to tell about her identity, and it was like 10 names deep and half the people on that list lived in our house or worked in our house. And 15 minutes later the older kids came home and she goes upstairs, comes flies back down and she’s like, “I told them, I told them, I told Zayir and [Dada 00:45:16].” And we were like, “What did they say?” And she’s like, “Zayir was like, ‘Oh, okay, cool.'” “And what did Dada say?” “All right.” And we’re like, “That’s great for them, they’re teens, they don’t talk. But she was so surprised that she was being embraced with love and understanding and joy. And by the end of the week, everyone on the never ever list they had flown off the list, and she was able to live free. And we made it clear that our home and anything that we touch is a sanctuary. And if you can’t get right by how we are living and embracing of all of our family members, you are not welcome here.
Glennon Doyle:
Amen.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. The island.
Gabrielle Union:
I’m going to love you from across the street and wave, but this home is a sanctuary. I can’t protect them from everything out there, but this house, no you got to save all that shit for your group chat. But I hope your actual soul changes and expands, but if you can’t pull it together to be decent in our home, you’re not welcome in our home. And we were clear about that.
Abby Wambach:
I love it.
Glennon Doyle:
And then you told the school. And for all the teachers, so many teachers listen to this podcast, and I just want to read this one part. So Gabrielle calls the school, I’m sure you could never guess this, but she describes herself as ready for battle, she’s going to tell the school. And I guess the teacher or the principal on the other side when you described what Zaya was going to go by, you said, “Zaya is her name, and her pronouns are she and her.” And they said, “Okay, no problem.” No problem. When I tell you that I wish this for every parent of an LGBTQ child, that the person they adore and cherish is not seen as a problem. I say this from the deepest part of my soul. And Gabrielle, what I loved about that is it was a shout out to parents, we worry so much about the kid, how’s the kid going to feel? And that is the first priority. But the gift of LGBTQ parents being able to say, “Here is the most precious thing in my world, will you please not consider this precious thing a problem?” That is so powerful, and to all the teachers and administrators, just no problem. [crosstalk 00:47:50]
Gabrielle Union:
We have been very lucky. Very, very, very, very lucky. And I say luck because it is the luck of the draw. But there is the opportunity at every institution, you can either respond in kind and compassion and love, and I’m not even going to say understanding because I don’t need you to understand. I need you to say, “Maybe I don’t have all the answers, but let’s figure it out together. And I’m going to always make sure that I’m creating a safe space for you to learn and grown and be nurtured.” But every year I meet with not just the teachers, but if the teachers aren’t supported by the administration, then you’re only going as far as that classroom. And I want it to be clear, I don’t have a problem suing people, I’ve sued many people, you could be added to the list if you want to fuck with my kids, no problem. But let’s be really clear, this is the situation, and don’t start nothing won’t be nothing. And how we doing, guys? And I’ve never been met with anything but, and I say luckily, because I know there’s a lot of parents who’ve been met with derision and just discrimination and just horror stories. I’ve just been very lucky that I’ve-
Glennon Doyle:
There’s the horror stories and then there’s the general annoyance. The beauty of my child is trans, my child is anything, and then the reaction that makes it seem very clear that it’s inconvenient for the other person. It’s just like annoying, like they don’t fit in a box or they don’t fit in it, so it’s going to make more paperwork or it’s going to make me switch my brain. And this idea that even if it’s inconvenient, love is always inconvenient, and if you’re working with kids, just be ready for a lot of inconvenience if they feel safe enough to actually tell you who they are, which is what we’re trying to create anyway.
Abby Wambach:
Yes. I just want to say this before we move on, the way that you celebrate Zaya is something to behold, it’s something to witness. And I watch you all on Instagram and I see the way that you’re not just letting her be a part of your family, you’re like, “No, this is who we are,” and having her step in front of you and Dwayne at times to be almost like the face of your family. And to me as, I’ve been a gay person all my life, and I just want you to know that the modeling you’re doing for other parents is maybe some of the most important work you and Dwayne will ever do, and you’re saving actual lives. What you guys are doing now is saving lives, and that kind of love is not common and I’m just so grateful for it.
Glennon Doyle:
And we see it coming from you, we see it all, we see you leading that way.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, did you see their outfits today? Get out of here.
Glennon Doyle:
I know, it’s too much. It’s just [crosstalk 00:50:58]
Gabrielle Union:
Well, Zaya is like she wants to go into fashion, so we’re like bet, say less, and shit. It was weird because people ask us all the time, like, “Why would you make her story so public?” And the reality is, we weren’t, that wasn’t Zaya’s wish, but there was a time a year and a half ago or so at the start of seventh grade where D was doing this documentary about his basketball career, and they were using a lot of footage of Zaya as a young little person, as a young child, and not any current footage, because current footage would show that she’s wearing women’s clothing. And the filmmakers were just trying to avoid it.
Gabrielle Union:
But when they were using her dead name, because they’re filming at our house, so Zaya could hear them using her dead name, and so she came to us, she’s like, “Hey, can you have them use my name? Zaya.” And we’re like, “Yes, absolutely. But we need to explain to you what comes with that. This is a public thing, this is going out to the world, dad will have to do press surrounding this documentary, it’s going to open up a can of worms. I don’t know if you’re ready for that, you’re a kid.” And she was like, “Uh huh, I get that, but I need them to use my name, I want my name.” And she was like, “So let the chips fall, but they’re going to need to use my name.”
Gabrielle Union:
And from that moment, she has led, there’s a reason she’s walking in front, she’s leading us in many, many ways. She drags us through filth often. We only know what we know, and so sometimes you might use the wrong words, the phrase or you’re just ignorant to something and she’s like, “Okay, sit down. Story time, kids.” And she educates us in her smart butt way. But that’s how it has to work. Sometimes when you don’t have all the answers, and even if someone younger than you maybe has more knowledge about certain things than you, humble yourself, it’s okay, life’s not going to end. And let the children lead. Whitney and Dolly said it best, let the children lead the way.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, we don’t have to have the answers. We’re always so afraid to talk to the kids because we don’t have the answers but we never have had the answers, we just have to be, as you say, a sanctuary where they can tell us what they know.
Gabrielle Union:
Well a lot of parents, and it was weird at first because it just feels, I don’t know, harsh and hateful, but they’ll say, “I don’t know how to love her like that. I don’t know how to love him if he’s going to do that, if he’s going to be that way.” And you’re like, “You can’t love your kid?” And they’re like, “No.” Just no hesitation, just like, “I mean, can you imagine?” I’m like, “Yeah. Just love them. You don’t have to understand every single thing.”
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what it is. I think they think love means understand.
Gabrielle Union:
Yeah, or they’re doing what you’re doing. And it’s like you don’t have to approve or condone or condemn or understand every single thing, that’s your baby. Love them and protect their peace like it is your peace. And in the way that you’re trying to force your kids to shape shift to make you more comfortable so you’re not dealing with questions and conversations that you may not be ready for, ma’am, sir, how about address your shit, don’t put that on your kid, that’s an option. That’s an actual option. Don’t jack up your kids because you’re not right with yourself because you’re afraid of your neighbors and what they have to say. It is okay to cut out people that are trying to shame you or force you or cajole you into not loving your children.
Abby Wambach:
A-fucking-men.
Gabrielle Union:
No. Not loving your kids, putting your children out like the garbage should never be on the table, ever. Ever.
Glennon Doyle:
And there is no love without full and radical acceptance. It’s something less than love when we are holding that, whatever we call it, approval celebration back.
Glennon Doyle:
I want to end with this few sentences you said about little Kaavia James. You said, “The moment she pressed the plunger to transfer the embryo, there was this bright burst of light into the void. It was like watching the birth of a star. We just had to hope that the light stayed bright and was not extinguished.” And I just read that sentence like 13 thousand times because I understand that that sentence was just about that moment where the embryo was being transferred, but it feels so much, Gabrielle, like that’s what you do day in and day out with all of your kids. Like that you are just making sure that they’re light is not extinguished in any way. And you can watch their little faces, they’re just so full of light, or they’re so full of whoever the hell they are, each of them is so different, but your celebration of them is our favorite. It’s a beautiful thing, and I hope that you are also making sure that your light is never extinguished, because you’re a freaking light in this world.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Gabrielle Union:
I mean I do okay, it’s a struggle. We all have our path and some days are better than others. But it’s a phrase that I use not only for our children but for our marriage, for business, for my friendships, for my familial relationships, because there’s always that opportunity to snuff out somebody’s light or to be in such a state where you’re open for your light to be snuffed out. And there’s just the little stupid things that you can do that just lets people know. And I’m such a cusser, I was about to say, “To let mother fuckers know.” To let people know [crosstalk 00:57:37]
Abby Wambach:
I am too, it’s all good.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s part of your light.
Gabrielle Union:
It’s a problem. To let people know that their light is not just shining where they can see it, their light is so bright that it’s illuminating worlds that they can’t even imagine that they’re illuminating. And those are little things that go a long way. So yeah, just try not to extinguish anyone else’s light. [crosstalk 00:57:57]
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s do that today. That’s going to be our next right thing, blow out no one’s light today. Also, please, please go out and get Gabrielle’s newest book, which is already a New York Times bestseller the first week it was out, You Got Anything Stronger, because you’re going to love every chapter because it’s so freaking honest and beautiful, but also because we didn’t get to the one part that I was dying to get to, which I am going to invite you back please to talk to me about, which is the chapter about Isis and how you would redo her. You’re going to need to get the book just so you can read what we didn’t talk about yet. But someday will you come back and talk to us just about Isis?
Gabrielle Union:
Someday? Next week. Listen, we got to talk about Isis, we got to talk about my love of strip clubs and perhaps don’t drink dark liquor and take ex-lax and go to a strip club, that’s a chapter in there.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, that was the best.
Gabrielle Union:
But yeah, there’s lots to talk about, and I would love to come back if you guys would have me. And again, I don’t want to be a psycho fan but I am a psycho fan of both of you. Abby, I watched your whole career, we’re similar in age, and you played with some of the greats that I came up with and played against, Tiffany Roberts back in the day.
Abby Wambach:
Oh hey, you know girl, what? [crosstalk 00:59:06]
Gabrielle Union:
So I’ve just been a fan forever, and what you’ve done for sport and what you’ve done for all women has just been amazing. And the fact that you all found each other, that’s everything, and I just want to thank you guys for having me on.
Glennon Doyle:
Proof of hope. Freaking hope. That either saves us or kills us every damn day, Gabrielle.
Gabrielle Union:
Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
All right, then we will see you back here soon. And we will see you on Instagram where we stalk you.
Gabrielle Union:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Thanks love.
Gabrielle Union:
Thank you guys.
Abby Wambach:
Thank you so much.
Gabrielle Union:
And bye, sister, if you’re listening. See I got it in there.
Glennon Doyle:
I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlile.