HOW TO SAY NO with Simone Biles and Laurie Hernandez
November 1, 2021
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, everybody, welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.
Abby Wambach:
It’s happening.
Glennon Doyle:
And I just had to remind myself that I actually do not have to pee. That’s just nervousness happening. We have today, Laurie Hernandez and Simone Biles.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so we are calling this show three goats and also Glennon.
Laurie Hernandez:
Four goats. Four goats.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So, I mean who are joining us today are two of the world’s heroes and two of Abby and I’s personal heroes.
Abby Wambach:
It’s true.
Glennon Doyle:
Laurie Hernandez and Simone Biles. Laurie Hernandez is a second generation American as her grandparents are from Puerto Rico, making her the first US born Latina to make the US team since 1984. Laurie is an Olympic gymnast winning both gold and silver medals at the 2016 Rio Olympic Games. Her book, I Got This: To Gold and Beyond, and her children’s book, She’s Got This are both New York Times bestsellers. Laurie is a fierce advocate for the importance of mental health and travels the country speaking to the next generation about following their dreams because of course she does.
Abby Wambach:
Ugh. We love you Laurie so much. And I have the great pleasure and honor to introduce Simone Biles; one of the greatest gymnast of all time and is the first woman to capture five, count them, five, all around world championship titles. She is the most decorated gymnast in world championship history, male or female.
Glennon Doyle:
Male or female.
Abby Wambach:
By the way, she’s got 25 medals overall and 19 of them are gold.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
And is a seven-time Olympic medalist with four Gold medals.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s like a lot more than you.
Abby Wambach:
Oh. Yeah, that’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Let me continue. She earned the rare distinction of having four skills named in her honor called The Biles. That’s so cool. And then Simone’s autobiography, Courage to Soar is a New York Times bestseller. Simone advocates for change and supports initiatives that provide education and assistance for children and young adults associated with adoption and childcare.
Glennon Doyle:
And so these two women, Simone and Laurie, and an all-star team of gymnasts are on the road this fall for the 35-city GOLD OVER AMERICA TOUR, showcasing their fierce talent and athletic brilliance in ways you’ve never seen before their own way. Love this. The show emerges from their personal values of empowerment, friendship, positive body image, mental health awareness and self confidence. So, before we get started and actually let Simone and Laurie speak, I am going to tell a little story that you two probably don’t even know.
Abby Wambach:
No, they do not know.
Glennon Doyle:
There’s no way.
Abby Wambach:
They don’t remember.
Glennon Doyle:
But you two are the integral part of one of our favorite family stories. So here’s the story. All right. When Abby was still trying to impress our children, she invited us all to go to the ESPYs with her. Okay. So for our listeners who are listening, the ESPYs are like the Oscars for sporty spices, okay? They give each other awards. They do all the things. Our children did not want to come until they found out that Simone Biles and Laurie Hernandez might be going.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Then it became their, the holy grail, to go to this place. They are absolutely and utterly obsessed with you two. Okay. So they came, they got so excited. They saw you from afar at the ESPYs. They died. Then the ESPYs put us in a car.
Abby Wambach:
A van.
Simone Biles:
I remember.
Laurie Hernandez:
I also remember this.
Simone Biles:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
You do?
Simone Biles:
Yeah, I remember.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh. Our kids are going to die.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So we’re sitting in the van waiting to go home. And then the door opens and the fancy people put Simone Biles and Laurie Hernandez in our van. Now, my girls actually can’t handle their shit. They can’t breathe, they can’t speak. I’m scared.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Sweet Laurie Hernandez turns to Tish and says, oh, hi, how are you? And Tish can’t speak. She just stares at Laurie Hernandez.
Abby Wambach:
She ghosted you. She was just like-
Glennon Doyle:
She says no words. So then Laurie Hernandez is so sweet that she then tries to high-five Tish, and Tish cannot move and leaves Laurie Hernandez hanging. But then our night is redeemed because Simone Biles turns to Chase and says, I love your shoes. Can I have your Snapchat, so I can post them? And to this day, that’s the most exciting thing that has ever happened to our family.
Laurie Hernandez:
Aww. My heart. So sweet.
Abby Wambach:
Truly.
Glennon Doyle:
Laurie, I’m going to start by asking you a question. I know that you are speaking about the importance of mental health on your GOLD OVER AMERICA TOUR right now. And I’d like to start there. You took a two year break from gymnastics after winning gold to recover for an emotionally and verbally abusive coach, and to rebuild a healthy relationship with your body. When you told your story in order to have that coach suspended, so she didn’t harm other athletes, you wrote about how you were constantly told that you were too sensitive and overreacting, that you were crazy for having the feelings you had. You said for years, I was taught not to listen to my body or my mind, but now I’ve learned to trust my gut.
Glennon Doyle:
And I know that my experience and feelings are valid. No one gets to decide those things for me. Here’s to speaking up. So, that Laurie, when I read that a long time ago is when I became your secret best friend and have been your fan ever since. So what I want our audience to know is that you are a hero of this work; the untamed work of reversing the universal gaslighting of women to keep us in our place and keep us performing to say, nope, I’m not crazy, I know. So what does that look for you? What does that look like for you these days to just practice trusting yourself in the world?
Laurie Hernandez:
Yeah, I think there’s probably two things that has made a really big difference over the last couple years. One of them is just making small decisions, like making big decisions was already a big no. It was like, I’m going to need my agent, my mom, my sister, whoever to do that for me. I will not make a decision, and God forbid, if it’s wrong, I cannot handle that. I will crumble and disintegrate, then you will never see me again. And so it just, it became making small decisions, literally like going to Target and picking out a candle, or going somewhere and picking out a shirt, and going and picking out what outfit I’m going to wear for the day, because those things would take me hours just because the idea of making a decision and not being able to trust myself was so heavy.
Laurie Hernandez:
And over the years, now realizing, then it turned into me saying, is there a way that we can make this event shorter? Is there a way that we can talk about something else? I actually don’t like this event or this day doesn’t work for me and being able to say those things, it took years to get there, but that is also making a decision and trusting your gut. And it was hard to know that about me because I also didn’t know who I was. I didn’t that I wanted that day off. I didn’t know that that was an option that I could ask for, or I didn’t know that, I don’t know, maybe I wanted to talk about certain things for a really long time and there are other things that I’m just not interested in, and I can tell somebody that. And so it took a lot of time to get there, but overall, just making little decisions, I think is what kick started that.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, I love that so much.
Abby Wambach:
So Simone, you also famously chose your physical and mental health over the world’s expectations of you, and your performance from when you withdrew from the Tokyo Olympics. So, a little story, my wife, she immediately understood. She often does, that it was the bravest and most revolutionary thing on earth. And she started talking about it and how you had just begun this revolution of women finally speaking up for themselves. And I really wanted to feel what Glennon was feeling, but I couldn’t, and I felt weird. So, what ended up happening is I went on a run, and on that run, I realized that what I felt when I watched you do that was jealousy.
Abby Wambach:
And I don’t know if many people would relate or could relate, but to watch you and women like Laurie and Naomi Osaka, who are brave and wise enough to look right at the world and the powers that be inside your sport and say, no, enough. I’d rather disappoint you than myself. My body and soul are more important than your experience of me. I am more than what I can do for you. I never did that in my career. I just follow directions and kept performing even when my body and soul were screaming, no. I let doctors keep prescribing me pills, and just so I can keep performing, by the way. And that actually almost killed me. So I felt jealous because I was watching women, you, at the highest level do what I wasn’t brave enough to do. How did you do that?
Simone Biles:
In that moment, I had no choice but to do it, because selfishly, if I weren’t having the twisties, me having my mental well being so down in the gutter, I would’ve kept going, but there was a point where my mind and my body had had enough, and it literally was telling me to stop or else I was going to end something that I started years ago and not be able to walk again. So, thankfully, my body, it does sync up to your mental and your wellbeing, so thankfully, mine was intact and unfortunately it was on the biggest stage of my career. But at the end of the day, it’s like, I was worth more than gold medals. I was worth more than gymnastics. At the end of the day, I’m not just an athlete, I’m a human and you guys have to realize that.
Simone Biles:
And I knew I was going to get a lot of backlash and I did, but most of it was a lot of support, love, strength, courage, and that’s something that I never felt before in the sport because people always put me on a pedestal when all I wanted to be was normal. I wanted to be human. I wanted to be looked at as the same as you. I go to the grocery store, I have bills, I have dogs, I have these things. It’s just, I do something and I’m incredibly well at it, so why put me on a pedestal and I always wanted to be seen as normal? So unfortunately, it took all of that for people to see me as normal, but it’s also really hard for people to understand because they can see physical injury, but whenever it’s a mental injury, it’s like, you can’t see it.
Simone Biles:
They can’t understand, therefore it’s no longer valid. And I think America and just the world has a hard time with dealing with that because it’s something they physically can’t touch see or relate to. But now we have these amazing athletes speaking up and I think it brings the talk to the forefront. And I think that’s really amazing thing.
Abby Wambach:
Ugh, yes to all of that.
Abby Wambach:
Laurie, I need to ask you, I feel a little bit of a kinship with you because I know that you injured your leg and it forced you to withdraw from the Tokyo Olympics. And you may not know this, but I broke my leg on the field five days before our plane was leaving for the 2008 Olympics. So what I want to know is how did you get through that? How did you survive that?
Laurie Hernandez:
Yeah, you know, time. I don’t think there’s anything you can actively do besides just give yourself time because it was like going through everything that I had been through, taking two years off only to realize that I didn’t hate the sport, I hated the environment, and I wanted to try it again. But I knew I had such a short timeframe and I knew a lot of people weren’t going to understand it. I just wanted to try again and I didn’t know what was going to happen. I just wanted things to be different. So it’s like I moved across the country, trained as hard as possible because I came back really late. So it was like we had a lot of hustling and making up to do. I also hit puberty pretty heavily and had some disordered eating habits, and a lot of it was binge eating when I was 17.
Laurie Hernandez:
And so having to get back into training after a completely different body change was really difficult. And all of these things were happening, and then training for two years, we hit 2020. And then in February of 2020, I did a hearing with my old coach and that happened. They scheduled it on an Olympic year, even though we had reported it four years earlier, and I did this hearing. And I remember we had a camp that was that February and I pulled out just because I couldn’t train. And my coach was really understanding about that. She was like, listen, you can come in, you can walk around the gym and that’s your cardio. If you want to condition, like you don’t have to do anything, I’m not going to force you to do anything. I know this is hard, and that was really what I needed, was someone to not push me, because that was the last thing that I wanted or could have handled.
Laurie Hernandez:
And then COVID happened. So we had another year of training, and then it almost benefited me just because not having to rush the comeback and to get more skills. And I actually got to play around a little bit, which was not something I got to do a lot growing up. And I think I really just fell in love with the sport all over again, and then Meet Season came and it was like, we started getting closer and closer and then made championships and landed on a straight leg; I busted my knee, got a bone bruise, a torn meniscus, and then that was it. And the whole journey was just done. There’s no resolve for that.
Laurie Hernandez:
And of course going into it, you know that’s a possibility, but when it happens, it’s like I had one experience where everything worked out perfectly and I made the team and we got a gold and I got an individual silver and then there’s a complete opposite of being right there and then getting hurt and not being able to even try at all. So, that was-
Glennon Doyle:
Was it the worst case of FOMO ever, when the whole team leaves and you’re like, I guess I’ll just watch Netflix. How…
Laurie Hernandez:
So, actually, it gets worse, because there was an opportunity and I want to do entertainment and be on screen, and to do acting and different things like that. And so Peacock had mentioned like, hey, we would love for you to commentate just the Olympic games specifically gymnastics. And I said yes to it because I was like, future me. This could be really good for the future. Is it good for me right now? No. But it could set up the future really well. And I remember getting there and watching the team compete and wanting everybody to do so well, but also wanting to be out there and then having to break it down for the world. And that was really hard. That sucked, but…
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Simone Biles:
But you did such a great job, Laurie. Your reviews were literally, they were like replace anybody, like Laurie needs to commentate all of this. You were getting really good reviews. You did a great job.
Laurie Hernandez:
Thank you.
Abby Wambach:
It’s got to be so hard talking and criticizing or critiquing some of what your teammates are actually doing, knowing that you in some ways wanted to be out there. Simone, I want to ask you, what has it been like to be on tour with some of your former teammates and current teammates? How is this tour going ?
Glennon Doyle:
And what are you hoping to get out to the audience? What are your messages?
Simone Biles:
Yeah, for our show, I feel like there’s a lot of realness and rawness to it. The storyline is absolutely amazing. We’re having fun, but we also go through those anxiety depressions and it’s how we get out of that, and I think that’s what’s so special about the show that we portray, but it was really nice seeing Laurie. I hadn’t seen her in a really long time. We see each other at camps, but it’s like more business, we’re competing against each other. It’s like not the most fun environment.
Abby Wambach:
It’s so serious.
Simone Biles:
Yeah. It’s like to have that rekindled friendship like in 2016 when we were having so much fun, kind of like sisterly love, has been amazing. It’s a really fun environment. There’s no competition. We’re just trying provide and shed a golden light in such a hard time; COVID, whatever everybody else is going through and just have fun.
Abby Wambach:
Oh.
Glennon Doyle:
You created a whole new environment for it, which is so awesome because Laurie, you said, that it took you a while to figure out I don’t hate the sport, I just hate the environment, which is by the way what I figured out in every area of my life.
Abby Wambach:
I want to ask both Laurie and Simone, when I was younger, I wanted to quit soccer. I think I was 14 years old. And I missed my friends and I wanted to have a normal life, and someone I loved and who is dear to me looked at me once and said, Abby, you can’t quit. You’ve been given a gift and others would kill to have, right. So you need to do this for all of us. And I remember feeling like, oh, what a burden this is, right? And that sentiment that my talent meant that I owed something to the world was it was a beautiful blessing because it kept me going when I wanted to quit, but it was also a heavy curse because it took away my choice in life. It made me feel like my life was chosen for me, and it didn’t matter whether I love soccer or not. It was my destiny and responsibility. So, do either of you feel like your talent and your greatness is both a curse and a blessing?
Simone Biles:
Very much so. I feel the exact same. If you want to quit, people push that on you, like you’ve been given this God given talent, don’t waste it, blah, blah, blah. But it’s like, if I’m not enjoying it, then it’s a burden. It’s hard. So I do feel in a way it’s been the biggest blessing in my life because look what it’s given us and the opportunities that it’s brought, but on the down end, it’s like, people don’t get that we go through these depression modes and this and that. And it’s from our sports because sometimes we’re not enjoying it. But then on the other hand, they’re like, well, look at the life you’ve been given. And it’s like, but I worked my ass off for it. It’s like it wasn’t handed to me. I had to work extremely hard. And so there is definitely both of those sides that I see, that it’s hard and it’s a blessing, but sometimes it can be a curse.
Abby Wambach:
Laurie, what about you?
Laurie Hernandez:
I think people see us do incredible things and they think, wow, I would never be able to do that. I have to let them know how crazy this is, or like that’s inhuman. This is nothing like I’ve seen before. And then it’s like, immediate, you are now here, and I am here. I have created this disconnect between you and I. You and I are not human. I am human. What you do, crazy, could never touch it. But the fact in the matter is we are human. And when the expectation is put on us to do something super human, essentially, which is what we do. And gymnastics and in every sport, we train hard as hell. And there’s this idea that, oh, you’re a different breed. Oh, you’re a different thing. And it’s like, no, I’m a human. I work my ass off to get here. I am you, but a different font.
Abby Wambach:
You just spoke my wife’s language.
Simone Biles:
Yeah, and I think that’s where the burden comes from because then we have this expectation, not only if we want to quit, essentially, then we have other people blaming us for not giving them what they want, which is entertainment or this, that, the other. So it is really hard to find the happy medium.
Abby Wambach:
Oh.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, yes, but what you need to know is regardless of what the circumstances are were surrounding Tokyo, all of that, I have threads with friends who after that were just like, wait, no, no, thank you. No to that, and also that. And additionally, no again, and no, no, no. It was-
Abby Wambach:
A lot of us didn’t know we could quit.
Laurie Hernandez:
Well, yeah, there’s this idea that if you… I don’t like the word quitting, because I feel like it has such a negative connotation to it. If you don’t want to do something anymore, you can choose to stop doing said thing and then do something that makes you happy. You’re not a quitter. You are choosing your own happiness. And I hate when people are like, oh, you quit or, oh, I just quit. She’s a quitter. He’s a quitter. They’re a quitter, whatever it is. That is not… You chose to stop. It wasn’t an accident. It was an intention, and I hate that shit. Sorry [crosstalk 00:21:12].
Glennon Doyle:
So here’s why you hate that word, Laurie. The origin of that word is quietistand it means to set yourself free.
Simone Biles:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. It always had a positive connotation. It only had a negative connotation during when the industrial revolution happened, when everyone decided that we should be machines.
Laurie Hernandez:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
So, you are correct. Quit is a choice. Like I, no thank you, I value my humanity.
Simone Biles:
The part, I think, that irritates me the most is when the haters call me quitters. It’s like, you guys have wanted to see me fail for seven years, and I finally did failure in your eyes and you’re still mad at me. I don’t get it. [crosstalk 00:21:53].
Laurie Hernandez:
How are you going to go and judge her for choosing an option? I’m like, you fuckers didn’t even try, and you’re going to go ahead and bash on her career and be like, oh, she’s a quitter. Did you try? Did you try? No. No. Sit down. [crosstalk 00:22:08].
Simone Biles:
… you guys wanted to see me fail, I failed in your eyes, and then you’re still mad that I failed. Like what else do you want?
Abby Wambach:
That’s the unfortunate problem that most women [crosstalk 00:22:19]-
Simone Biles:
I just don’t understand.
Abby Wambach:
Successful women only have a certain length of runway. Right. And unfortunately, don’t go away because they’re telling you to, go away because that’s your choice, right?
Laurie Hernandez:
Right, right, right.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, speaking of good things, we are completely obsessed with the pictures Simone that you post of you and your boyfriend. So there’s something about your relationship, it just feels beautiful and triumphant, and just feels like a way of you publicly claiming your own humanity. Like, this is for me, this love is mine. I get to be human too. So tell us about Jonathan and how do you keep that love protected from the world? Because it feels like you do. And what I also want to know from you two is what are the other things in your life that you feel like are just yours and yours alone?
Simone Biles:
Yeah. I feel like first of all, he’s absolutely amazing. Loves me through thick, thin. He just loves me for me and who I am and not what I do, or who the world perceives me as, so I think that’s really special. But I also think we keep our love protected, not only because I feel like you could put your relationship out there and I feel like we don’t do that as much, because that’s something sacred to us, but it’s also because we’re so busy. So whenever we’re at the house, because we do live together, we’re just either watching Netflix or a movie or outside in the pool or playing with the dogs, so a lot of that stuff doesn’t get documented.
Simone Biles:
But it’s also, it’s like we don’t have to prove to anybody how much we love each other, because we know home is home and that’s us and our dogs. And so I think that’s very special; the kind of relationship that we have, and we are always cooking dinner for each other together, and our schedules are hectic, but it works. And we make time for each other, and so I think that’s also the beauty of love.
Glennon Doyle:
It is. Instagram less. Look at Simone having good boundaries.
Simone Biles:
I think we do, but I also feel like we’re in a point in our lives and an age in our lives where we have nothing to prove to anybody. We live with each other, we’re doing great. We don’t really argue. And if it is, it’s about who took which charger from the kitchen. I feel like that’s literally the biggest arguments that we have.
Abby Wambach:
Totally.
Simone Biles:
He was running around the house before I left for tour claiming a charger was his, and I’m chasing him, I’m screaming like, that’s my charger. And he’s just cracking up and I’m like, I swear, I’ll order you a new one on Amazon, and we’re just fighting about that stuff. And I think it’s people don’t realize that, but we’re at an age people are like, why are you even dating him? He doesn’t post you on his Instagram. And it’s like, I’m sitting next to him right now. I’ve been sitting next to him for four hours. We stare at each other. We have nothing to prove to anybody. And on Instagram it’s beautiful and it can be beautiful, but we have nothing to really prove to anybody.
Abby Wambach:
Ugh. So good.
Glennon Doyle:
Amen. What about you, Laurie? What keeps you human? What are your things that remind you that you are a human being and not just a gymnastics machine?
Laurie Hernandez:
Yeah, I think everybody in my inner circle between my person and my friends and my family, those moments when we’re at home and same thing, we’re watching Netflix and we’re doing absolutely nothing or we’re making tea and everything is very quiet and mellow, it is quite the opposite of a gymnastics world or a gymnastics meet. It is loud. You have your hair and makeup done. You’re walking around in leotards, my cheeks are out because it has to be at way. Just, there’s a lot of performance that’s happening before you even get into the arena. It’s so forceful. I’m like, I have to braid my hair because everybody braids their hair. There’s just a lot of performance happening.
Laurie Hernandez:
And it’s like, when we’re home, I look like I just crawled down out of all fours from under the bed. And I have one sleeve out and my leggings, one leg is pulled up and one is down and I plop down with a bowl of popcorn. I’m like, all right, what are we watching next? And they’re like, you get to pick today. And it’s just, that is something that gymnastics could never touch. And that is something that is sustainable and it lasts as long as we want it to. And gymnastics cannot give me that and it feels really good.
Glennon Doyle:
You have nothing to prove there. Those are your moments. I love my dogs. My dogs are the people who, the less I do, the more they love me. Don’t you have a dog named Honey, Laurie?
Laurie Hernandez:
I do. We actually switched her name in Chewbacca because she got a little crazy. And when her hair grows out, she looks like a little ewok. So if you go, Chewy? She listens and responds a little bit better to that. But yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God. The dog previously known as Honey is now Chewbacca. That’s amazing. Okay. So both of you, we are raising three kids and most people who are raising kids have them in some kind of institution, church, school, team, something. Right? So one of your teammates recently said of the abuse inside gymnastics, all we needed was one adult to do the right thing. Okay. Every conscious adult heard that loud and clear from all of you. So how do we make our institution safer for our children? What is it that you needed one adult to do?
Simone Biles:
Speak up, not break a law. Even if it costs you your job, at least you can go home, sit down on your couch and be like, I did the right thing and I protected hundreds of girls. But instead you kept that inside. And hundreds of us were abused. That I don’t think I’ll ever live with. And I don’t get how, they have to be sociopaths, to sit down at home and think they did the right thing. I would never, if I see anything, I go to Cecil, I go to my parents. I speak up, even if it’s little, that just blows my mind. What my parents have done. My parents actually do own a gym. They built it after all of that, little bit before, but they wanted it to be completely transparent.
Simone Biles:
So all of our viewing windows can see the whole entire gym to stop that abuse of any sort. And so you’ll think the coaches are joking with the athletes, but from upstairs, the parents look like it’s yelling. So they’ll call down to the coach. And so they’re like, are you yelling at my daughter? They’re like, no, no, we’re joking. So now then the coaches aren’t allowed to have phones on the floor, this and that. But there are different ways in doing it. But if you just have one adult that speaks up, especially if they have kids, that’s what worries me the most is some of these parents had kids and, you should do the right thing. Because I know Laurie and I had spent the majority of our lives and the time of our days with our coaches. So we become daughter to them because we’re with them more than our parents. So, it’s a crazy world out there. Yeah.
Laurie Hernandez:
There was just one person who’s witnessing it, completely different situation. But being at the gym and hearing my coach scream at the top of her lungs that we would get noise complaints from the parking lot because they could hear her. And another coach being in the gym and coming to me afterwards, because I was crying because I hated that because I was a child, and what child wants to be yelled at that loudly. And I remember it like it was yesterday, her saying, she just wants the best for you.
Simone Biles:
But she cannot yell at you that way.
Laurie Hernandez:
Yeah. And it’s like, oh she pushes you this hard because she wants you to be great and dah, dah, dah. And I’m like, did you hear the words she said as she, it’s not even like she said anything nice. And then yelled it with “passion”. She said something really messed up and then proceeded to yell it. And you’re telling me that she’s doing this because she wants the best for me. It’s the equivalent of when little kids are at school and they’re like, oh he is being mean to you because he likes you. No, no. That’s not how it goes. And I just had that person, looked and said, you know what? Seeing an adult yell at a kid is not the way to go and then telling somebody about it or coming to me and saying, are you okay? That seemed really scary, because I now have to do that for little me when she was right there. And she could have done that, but…
Glennon Doyle:
I read that you said that Laurie and that what you are doing right now is for little Laurie and for all the little Lauries, you have become what you needed when you were younger, both of you and what the hell, better thing can we do. What better thing can we do? It’s just-
Abby Wambach:
Well, and it gets really confusing as an athlete because I know in my experience being pushed requires or so I thought. We rationalize all of this stuff. And one day Glennon, I said, well, it just made me stronger. That’s what I said. Well, it made me stronger. It made me who I was. And she said, could you imagine not having experienced some of that? How much more strong you probably could have been?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I think about that a lot.
Simone Biles:
Because it made you stronger as an athlete, but weak as a person. And I think people take advantage of that.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what it meant. Retweet.
Laurie Hernandez:
I think also some people probably look at the experience and they feel bad and they don’t know what to say. And they’re like, well it made you stronger. And I’m like, actually no, it just really made things a lot worse. Not much came from that, except for the fact that now I have time to work on myself and it is so painful to have to become the thing that you needed at that time. It is a painful process. And so I think people are like, oh, but that makes you stronger. I’m like, that actually didn’t have to happen. But thank you for the kind words.
Glennon Doyle:
Maybe we stop that though. Maybe we stop just assigning that, it’s just another form of, women have to be grateful all the time. Well, I was abused, but I guess it made me stronger. No, it didn’t. We don’t have to suffer. People can treat us well and that can make us strong.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right. So I have to ask, because I know we don’t have a ton of time left and I have to know this because we are people who have been training for a whole lifetime. I didn’t understand how weird that life is until I retired and experienced how other people live. And I spent my entire career desperate for more freedom. And then when I got it, I felt literally paralyzed.
Glennon Doyle:
You lost your mind.
Abby Wambach:
And terrified of that freedom. So literally for decades I had a daily itinerary slipped under my hotel door back when they used paper for folks, told me what to eat, what to do every hour. Right. I literally didn’t know how to create a day for myself.
Glennon Doyle:
Laurie just lifted hers up. She has her itinerary in front of her.
Abby Wambach:
So do you think about life after gymnastics and what are your hopes and dreams for the next phase? What do you want be and do? I’m so curious if you even have started that process.
Simone Biles:
I feel like it’s hard because like you said, we have our daily schedules and if it’s not in the gym, it’s by our agencies. But it’s also things that we love and we chose to do. But at the end of the day life without a schedule, even on my Sundays and stuff, I give myself a schedule because I don’t know how to work without one. I feel lazy, useless, but then other days it’s like, no, I’m going to take this day to rot and do nothing. And I have to appreciate that. So I do think it is hard, but if I have a hope for my future, it would definitely be to help foster kids in the foster care system. Because that’s something that I feel really passionate about. But other than that, I feel like I’ve dedicated my whole life to gymnastics. So it’s time to give myself some me time before I figure out the next thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, please.
Abby Wambach:
What about you, Laurie?
Laurie Hernandez:
Yeah, I think just following curiosity, me and my person made a vow that we would never do anything that we felt we were stuck in. As soon as you hit the point where you feel like you’re trapped and you don’t want to be there and that you wish you were doing something else, you desperately wish you were somewhere else, that’s it. We’re going to do something different or something’s got to change. But, I would love to go to college and hopefully study acting and screenwriting and animation and stuff like that. Just because I think it’s so much fun and I find a lot of joy in it, but I’ve also kept in mind like, okay, if one day you wake up and you hate it, we’re going to do something else. And I’m sure there’s something that I’m curious about and I’ll just follow it and see where it goes. And then if I hate that thing, there’s more so.
Glennon Doyle:
I love it. We were at this place recently we saw this rock that said, bloom where you are planted. And we’re like, but we’re not plants. People have to freaking move. That’s a good philosophy for plants and that’s it. Right? We can change our circumstances. I love that.
Simone Biles:
But I think in today’s age, we’re so brainwashed of that and it’s almost forced upon us and we think that’s the only way to live life is you have to hate it because you’re either making money or this and that. But it’s like, no, we can find other things just because you have a degree in this doesn’t mean that’s what you have to follow through at. There are a lot of different avenues for us as a person and that’s how we actually grow.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. And that’s what you’re doing right now with this tour. It’s so wonderful because there’s nothing I like to see. Keeping that love that you have of gymnastics, but then doing it your way with your people is so-
Abby Wambach:
Creating the world in which you need and what you needed in order to be safe, to be free and to be happy. That’s what you all are doing. You’re trying to show the world what you need. Right? And they don’t have it if there is nothing out there, go ahead and make it. And that’s what you all are doing.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what the Goat tour is. I look forward to it.
Glennon:
Our friend Cameron Esposito told us this story the other day that she’s working with this personal trainer who is really young, 25 or something. She said, well, what are you going to do? Where are you going to work next? And he said, I think I’m going to quit personal training because I just feel like I’ve helped enough people, and I was like, that’s the most revolutionary thing I’ve ever heard. You two have helped enough effing people. And if you want to just dance off into the sunset and follow your curiosities forever, that’s what you freaking should do.
Abby Wambach:
Okay. So we need to get into some rapid fire questions because I love the rapid fire. So, sorry if you don’t love them.
Glennon Doyle:
Also, we just want to know what you guys consume because we just want to be more like you, we want to have what you’re having. So tell us, what does your perfect day look like right now? Your perfect day, morning tonight, what would you do?
Simone Biles:
Oh, if I could have a perfect day, it’s definitely at the beach. That’s where I most feel free.
Glennon Doyle:
Most feel free. Love it.
Abby Wambach:
I love that for you.
Laurie Hernandez:
My perfect day would be sleeping in, having morning coffee, doing some kind of podcast, binge watching movies and then eventually having to go outside just because that feels right. And then coming back inside.
Glennon Doyle:
I love it. I used to get grounded outside Laurie, when I was little, because I hated the outside so much. Okay. What’s your favorite movie? Both of you.
Simone Biles:
Ooh. Minus any comedy movie, I love to laugh. You know which one I like, but, oh wait, you go first, Laurie. Let me come back to it.
Laurie Hernandez:
Okay. I have three. Well technically four all-time favorites that they all tie together. It’s Tangled, The Spy who Dumped Me, Forgetting Sarah Marshall and Silver Linings playbook.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s amazing. She knows [crosstalk 00:39:06]. Love it. Good picks.
Simone Biles:
I can’t even remember what it is, but it’s on Netflix. She was in… she went to New Orleans with girls.
Laurie Hernandez:
Something great?
Simone Biles:
No, no, no. She took, there was like four girls. They went to New Orleans and they were partying in New Orleans.
Glennon Doyle:
Shoot. I know what you’re talking about. We’re going to figure it out. We’re going to find out the title. We’ll put it in the show notes.
Abby Wambach:
I love that when we say we’re going to put it in the show notes [crosstalk 00:39:40].
Glennon Doyle:
We actually don’t even know what the hell that is.
Simone Biles:
Girls Trip. Girls Trip.
Glennon Doyle:
Girls Trip! It’s Girls Trip! Yes. Very good.
Abby Wambach:
What about your most favorite book you’ve ever read?
Glennon Doyle:
Or just what you’re reading now? Because that’s stressful.
Laurie Hernandez:
I just finished a book that was 835 pages. It’s called Priory of the Orange Tree and it is incredible. I love fiction books. It was the most mind blowing thing I have ever read. I will now be disappointed with every other book I read.
Glennon Doyle:
Can you just say the title one more time? Can you say the title again? What was the title?
Laurie Hernandez:
Priory of the Orange Tree.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, okay. I’ll be getting it next.
Laurie Hernandez:
It’s good. It’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
What about you, Simone?
Simone Biles:
I don’t really read.
Abby Wambach:
That’s okay. Guess what I do, I never really read a lot, but now in my retirement I have to run so that I stay fit and healthy. And so I listen to books on tape. That’s how I-
Simone Biles:
Oh, that’s so smart, but one of my favorite ones that I did read would be The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. That was a great book.
Glennon Doyle:
Simone, you could write that book.
Abby Wambach:
Do you guys have any favorite podcasts you’re listening to?
Simone Biles:
Okay, so the girls got me hooked on… go ahead.
Laurie Hernandez:
Oh no. I was just saying this one, I love listening to you guys chat. And so I’m just like, oh my God, it’s happening? The crossover’s happening! So this one, and then arm chair expert. Just feels like a fly on the wall.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
So fun.
Simone Biles:
You guys have so much time. Since I was still training, I just slept, or ate or I was at the gym.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Simone, everyone else on earth has a lot more time than you do. That’s…
Simone Biles:
I know. I really do feel like that right now. But the girls are getting me hooked on a podcast called Serial and it’s these murder crime mysteries, so.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Simone Biles:
Look at them.
Abby Wambach:
Okay. So listen to me, this is before podcasts were a thing. This is back when I was still playing, Serial came out and it blew our whole team away. I ended up sitting next to the creator of that podcast and that was my claim to fame moment. I was like, I love that podcast so much.
Glennon Doyle:
She loves murders. I just feel like life is scary enough and we don’t need to add.
Simone Biles:
It is, but it’s so interesting.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, it is.
Simone Biles:
I like reading the murder mysteries.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Music, and then we’re going to let you go. Music, what kind of music do you listen to?
Simone Biles:
Right now my favorites would probably be Doja Cat, Meg the stallion. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Those are our sons’ maybe two favorite people. Okay, and Laurie?
Laurie Hernandez:
I like anything that could be played on a road trip in the early morning. There’s a song called Little Giant that I have been nonstop listening to and the lyrics are adorable and it feels like an ear hug.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So your next thing, people, is to follow every single thing that Laurie Hernandez and Simone Biles do.
Abby Wambach:
On their tour.
Glennon Doyle:
Additionally, go to the Goat tour, bring your kids. This is the good stuff.
Abby Wambach:
Is it called the Gold tour?
Glennon Doyle:
No. The GOAT tour.
Abby Wambach:
Is it for real called the GOAT tour?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, because G-O-A-T.
Simone Biles:
Gold Over America Tour.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. And Simone and Laurie, I would like to end with this, when Abby retired, Barack Obama tweeted out congrats to the GOAT and Abby called her agent so sad and upset because she didn’t know what a GOAT was. And she thought that Barack Obama was making fun of her.
Abby Wambach:
I was like, what does that mean? And he’s like, Greatest Of All Time. Muhammad Ali? What?
Simone Biles:
I’m dying.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, so that’s good. That’s a good thing. She’s like, yes. It’s a good thing. I’m like, oh my gosh.
Glennon Doyle:
We love you. We believe so strongly in you. We just want to be your aunts or your big sisters. And we want you to know that we will be in both of your corners forever. And please let us know if you need anything in the world. We will be in your corner forever.
Abby Wambach:
Thank you so much, you guys.
Laurie Hernandez:
This was wonderful.
Glennon Doyle:
We love you both.
Simone Biles:
We love you too. Thank you so much. Have a great day.
Glennon Doyle:
Go see the tour everybody. I give you Tish Milton and Brandi Carlile.
Glennon Doyle:
We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review and follow the show on apple podcasts, Spotify, Odysee or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn’t, don’t worry about it. It’s fine.