Cher is Here!

November 19, 2024

Glennon Doyle:

Pod Squad, if I could reach the stars, I’d give them all to you.

Abby Wambach:

And you love me, love me.

Glennon Doyle:

Love me. Like you used to do.

Abby Wambach:

I don’t think we should go there. I think we should just introduce the guests.

Glennon Doyle:

I think we’ve gone there, Abby, and I don’t think there’s a thing you can do about it.

Abby Wambach:

I know, but it’s-

Glennon Doyle:

Pod Squad, we’re a little amped up because we just spent the last hour with Cher. Okay? With Cher. Cher is on the podcast today, and the first amazing news is that Cher is on the podcast. The second amazing news is that Cher was so warm, so wonderful. Cher helped us solve all of our life problems. Cher talked to us about how life is like a bumper car situation and the only way to survive is to be a bumper car, which you’re going to need to hear. Cher talked to us about her regrets when Chaz came out to her. She talked to us about emotionally abusive relationships she’s been in and how she got out and what Lucille Ball said to her when she went to her for advice about how to get out. And she talked to us directly about what she would say to anyone who finds themselves in an emotionally or physically abusive relationship.

Abby Wambach:

And what she told Tina Turner to help Tina Turner get out of hers. Just all the things.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, just the whole thing is so beautiful.

Abby Wambach:

She’s a joyful, beautiful person.

Glennon Doyle:

She is. And I loved her before this interview and afterwards I love her even more. And you will too. And I actually think that this conversation’s going to help. Get ready. If I could turn back time.

Amanda Doyle:

The one, the only. We give you Cher, the icon.

Glennon Doyle:

Let’s go.

Cher:

Can you hear me?

Glennon Doyle:

Yes, we can hear.

Cher:

Okay. Here I am.

Glennon Doyle:

Cher. You are Cher.

Cher:

Yes I am.

Glennon Doyle:

This is Abby.

Abby Wambach:

I’m Abby.

Glennon Doyle:

And that’s my sister, Amanda.

Cher:

Hi.

Amanda Doyle:

Hello.

Glennon Doyle:

And I’m Glennon, and I’m going to be cool. I’m going to be cool. Cher, we love you.

Cher:

Thank you.

Glennon Doyle:

We have loved you.

Cher:

Wait, we’re all going to be cool then.

Abby Wambach:

Yes.

Glennon Doyle:

I can’t promise to be cool. I am rarely cool.

Cher:

Okay.

Abby Wambach:

I’ll be cool.

Glennon Doyle:

We love you. We’ll just start with that.

Cher:

Thank you. All right, well that’s a good start. Okay. I like that.

Glennon Doyle:

I know you haven’t heard that often. That’s a new thing for you to hear. Your book, I absolutely loved. I started and didn’t stop. Abby came up to me and said, “How is it? What are you thinking?” And I just thought, we know Cher the icon. We know Cher the Oscar winner. We know Cher the singer. We know you, but this is so personal, this book so personal and it’s such a gift to learn about you as a person. And I said to Abby I just wish I could sit with her for an hour and ask her advice. And Abby said, “Well, don’t we get to sit with her for an hour? You can ask her advice.” And I thought, “Oh my God.”

Cher:

Wait, I have to tell you too. I had to write that thing again. It was three times and it was such a bitch, I cannot tell you because it’s hard. First of all, it’s hard telling things you don’t really want to tell, and then it’s hard trying to get things in your own voice and be very careful. But then after a while, it was actually after a while, it was pretty good, but it was never easy. I was more proud of it, even though I think I should have done it one more time. But I was more proud of it. But it’s not easy. It just wasn’t easy. Or maybe it just wasn’t easy for me. I don’t know.

Glennon Doyle:

I’m a book writer and I agree that writing books is very hard, and I think one of the things that’s hardest is telling the truth while also honoring your people. And you did that so beautifully. I loved everyone in your book, even the complicated relationships, all of it. I thought it was beautifully done.

Cher:

Thank you. I have to tell you that the first book that was written that I didn’t have anything to do with, it was more like the encyclopedia. Then when I started doing it, I kept telling everybody, these have got to be stories. They can’t be information.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah. Speaking of stories, you start with you and your mama at an Elvis concert and you’re surrounded by all of the fainting girls, the screaming girls. And right from the beginning, that story got me because you looked at Elvis and you said, I want to be him. And I thought, oh, I bet the other girls were thinking, I want to be with him. Right?

Cher:

Yeah. I’m going to tell you something, my mom was crazy, but my mom could be so much fun. When I said, “Mom, can we get on the chairs and scream too?” I had no idea why I was doing it, but I wanted to do it. And she said, “Sure, babe, get on.” So we got up on the chairs and we were screaming and yelling, and my mom was so different than my friends moms. My mom was really cool and she was excited to be there and we didn’t have much money, but she got it and we just had the best time.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah. There’s so many beautiful things in your book about your relationships, and since this first one is about early relationships, there’s a lot about Sonny and Cher. And so much beauty was born from that relationship, but I was very grateful for your honesty in discussing the hard parts, about how you lost yourself a bit in that relationship. So when you look back, what parts of that relationship were hurtful? How did you lose yourself? So many people write to us about losing themselves inside of relationships and your story can be a real gift to them. So can you talk to us about that a little bit?

Cher:

Yeah. Well, I was only 16, so I didn’t have much self to lose, and Sonny was a much different person, and we just had this thing, if Sonny came back right now, we would be Sonny and Cher. It’s just that thing. Not that I liked him at the end, but even if he came back, we would be Sonny and Cher. We couldn’t help it. And I’m very forgiving. And so it was so complicated. It was so fucking complicated. He was really nice in the beginning. And then when we lost all of our money, it was maybe one of the best periods for us, except maybe then the beginning of the Sonny and Cher Show, because that was so much fun. It was a time where I had power that he didn’t have, because for me, it was just pretending. It was just having a good time. He didn’t come by it easily.

Amanda Doyle:

Oh, it was harder for him to do the show than you? Harder for him to get into that character. Is that what you mean?

Cher:

Right. Well, he ended up doing a character who didn’t study his lines.

Amanda Doyle:

That does make it harder.

Cher:

So that was where he was going to go. And then that was fabulous because we all laughed and that was him. And then it started to get not so much fun. Before that, I was not having a great time, but in the middle of the Sonny and Cher Show, I was just not having a good time at all. I was having a great time with the show. I was not having a good time with him.

Glennon Doyle:

So you would be in your relationship suffering and then get on stage and be acting out the parts?

Cher:

But you know what? This is what’s going to be hardest for people to understand. We weren’t acting out parts. We were really having a great time, but it was the only place where I had a great time because I couldn’t be under his thumb. And because I realized this happened to me twice. Once when I had Chaz and once when we did the Sonny and Cher Show that I had freedom and that he knew he had to give me freedom in order for me to help him, and in order for us to have a good time, and thank God we worked most of the time because it would’ve been too hard for me.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah. Cher, it felt like when I was reading, it felt like, oh, she’s allowed to exist on the stage. But then off the stage it was very controlling. You weren’t allowed to wear what you wanted or wear perfume or have friends. It was controlling off-stage. Right?

Cher:

Well wait, babe, say that one more time. I think I’m losing you guys for a minute. Okay, let’s try this again. Okay. You said something about what? Sonny was an asshole.

Glennon Doyle:

Well, I was saying it felt like when I was reading that your relationship was good on stage because he was wanting you to exist in all your Cher-ness on stage, but then off-stage it felt like he was controlling you.

Cher:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was terrible actually. It was like on stage we were equals. And also maybe he needed me more than I needed him. But off-stage, because I had started so young, he was not interested in me being a human being at all.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay. Now Cher, there’s this story that you tell in this book that I think could save lives. Okay? And when things got really bad, you started thinking, maybe I have to end my life because I don’t know how to get out of this. And then you’re standing on a balcony and you have this epiphany.

Cher:

Well, I was having a really, really hard time, and when we were on the road, I just wasn’t allowed any freedom at all. So I wasn’t allowed to talk to the band. I wasn’t allowed to do anything. I wasn’t allowed to go any place. I just wasn’t allowed to do anything. So I kept thinking, I can’t take this. And then one night I stopped eating, I stopped sleeping, and one night I just thought, I got to get out of here. I’m just going to jump off this thing. And then I thought I can leave him.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah. It’s such a beautiful thing because when you are in a bad relationship, your vision narrows and you think you only have this one option. So when I read that, oh, I don’t have to jump, I can leave him, I thought that’s going to save lives, that moment. So then what happened?

Cher:

Right. It was a phenomenon like, oh, I don’t have to do this, I can do that. And it just never occurred to me to do it. I think because he had so much control when we were not doing the show and when we were on stage, it was the same thing. We were equal and there was nothing he could do. So at those two points, we were having a fun time and he was enjoying it. We were, I think, always destined to be Sonny and Cher. And so it was really fun. And then the moment it was over, then it was, I don’t know, it wasn’t fun.

Abby Wambach:

You hear these stories about this, and in my experience, I’m just wondering, was it the more popular you got, the more life you had on stage, did that correspond with the more control he was exerting over you? Was it in response to you getting bigger that you needed to be smaller in the relationship?

Cher:

I really don’t know because when I was young, I was sickly. I have the strangest a lot of energy, a lot of emotion, a lot of just vitality and then sickness. And when I met him, I was in a sick period and he took care of me. And then it stayed like that and stayed like that. And then it got a little bit worse, and it was more than taken care of. It was telling me what to do and what not to do. And I just never thought to rebel because the one time I told him how I felt and I remember saying, “I’m just not happy.” And he just started screaming at me and said, “Do you want me to divorce you?” I should have said yes.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah. Yeah.

Cher:

But you know what? I wasn’t ready till I was ready. I just wish it hadn’t taken so long, but because our careers were so entwined with our personal life, I didn’t know what to do. Also, I have dyslexia, not that that has anything to do with anything, but it’s like I never made out a check until I was like right before I left him. I just was terrified. So I knew how to do what I did, and I didn’t know how to do much else except when Chaz was born. And that was a great thing. When Chaz was born, now this is before the show, when Chaz was born, it lifted me up. When we started to do the TV show, it lifted me up and there was nothing he could do to me in those times. And I don’t think there was anything he wanted to do to me.

Glennon Doyle:

How did you leave? Do you remember those moments? How did you do it? I read in the book that you talked to Lucille Ball about what to do. This was a beautiful sisterhood chain that you talked to Lucille Ball. And then after you left, Tina Turner came to you to ask you for advice, what did she ask you?

Cher:

What Lucy?

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, you asked Lucy right first?

Cher:

Yeah. I asked Lucy, I said, “You’re the only person that I know of who’s ever been in this kind of a position, the only one.” I said, and I don’t know what to do. And she said, “Fuck him. You’re the one with the talent.”

Abby Wambach:

That’s an evergreen statement if I’ve ever heard one.

Cher:

Yeah. And that’s so Lucy. I knew Lucy when I was little.

Glennon Doyle:

God. And then what did you say to Tina? What did Tina ask you exactly?

Cher:

How did you leave him?

Glennon Doyle:

And what did you say to her?

Cher:

I said, I just walked out one night.

Glennon Doyle:

So what would you say right now, you, Cher, who’s been through all this, who’s gotten out of this, what would you say to a woman who’s listening right now who might be in a physically or emotionally abusive relationship? What would your advice be to a friend?

Cher:

I would say it was easier for me to leave, except I ended up with a car and my clothes and that was it.

Abby Wambach:

And a $2 million debt.

Cher:

Yeah. Well, that’s true. I forgot about that. I remembered at the time. But I would tell if you have any way to do it, do it. Because as I got older and more angry about having no freedom, that’s when all of the, I can’t do anything, I’m going to have to jump off. I can’t do anything, I’m never going to be able to do anything. I’m just going to be caught here forever. So I don’t know. Tell a friend, tell your mom, tell somebody and get out. If you can get out, get out. And if you can’t get out, get out anyway.

Glennon Doyle:

So you seem happy now in your relationship. Are you happy now in your relationship with Alexander?

Cher:

Yes.

Glennon Doyle:

You are?

Cher:

Yes.

Glennon Doyle:

Why?

Cher:

I’m very happy. He’s great. He’s actually very settled, but we talk so much. We have everything to talk about. We talk about music, we talk about friends, we talk about love, we talk about desires. We talk about hope and God and slash. And we talk about music a lot because we both love it, and we’re going to do an album together. But that is not just what we talk about, but we talk about our love of things and not material things, just things, of doing things. And it’s just, I don’t know, we just get along, except sometimes.

Glennon Doyle:

How do you guys do conflict when you’re not getting along? How do you argue?

Cher:

Well, I’m the older one, so I’m pretty good with conflict because I’m better at it. I’ve had it longer and I love him, so it’s easier, even though sometimes it’s not. But it’s give and take. But I give more and he gives more. He thinks he gives more. I think I give more. So I don’t know.

Amanda Doyle:

I heard you talking about how slow to anger you are, and as I was reading, I was wondering, that’s baffling to me, to be slow to anger. When you’re thinking about all of your work and you’re also thinking about your life, what do you attribute being so slow to anger? And does part of you wish that you were, when I think about your relationships, do you wish you were faster to anger or do you think it has served you or not served you to be so slow to anger?

Cher:

Well, I don’t know what it’s done, but I know that the reason that I’m slow to anger is because of my father, because everybody else, and my father. I met my father till I was 11, and my mother and my sister are quick to anger. My grandmother’s quick to anger. The man who I call my father, quick to anger. My real father, boy, he’ll just wait and wait and talk to you. And he was very easy. He was like, there were two things I learned from my dad. Well, actually three. One, he ate slowly.

And my mother used to say, “Cher, don’t dawdle with your food.” And I wasn’t dawdling. I was just eating slowly. And he had the long fuse, and he had a good temperament in all ways, except he was a heroin addict. So that’s always a rough one. And I don’t know. I’m so happy that I have some of those things. And I smile like he does. My mom used to look at me every once in a while going, huh? I was wondering, what is she thinking? I know it doesn’t have anything to do, and yet it probably does have something to do with me. So I’m glad that I don’t, and people who know me just, but God, if you really piss me off, run for the hills. Because it takes so long to piss me off but then you just don’t want to be there.

Glennon Doyle:

Cher, when’s the last time you were really pissed off?

Cher:

Jen, when was the last time? With Lisa?

Speaker 5:

I honestly can’t remember.

Cher:

It was in Sanctuary.

Speaker 5:

That would be like 20.

Cher:

And who was it?

Speaker 5:

Lisa.

Cher:

Lisa. Yeah. How many years ago?

Speaker 5:

Like 27 years ago.

Cher:

Oh, wait. No, I was mad at my sister. Okay. And how long ago was that?

Speaker 5:

15.

Cher:

So one is twenty-something and one’s 15.

Amanda Doyle:

Holy shit. I don’t even understand that. But you don’t have a, you’re not pushing it down, your anger, it just doesn’t exist?

Cher:

It just takes a lot, I don’t know. I just don’t, maybe I should have more, but I wouldn’t like that. And I’m not doing it consciously at all.

Amanda Doyle:

I think it’s beautiful. I’m just jealous.

Cher:

I just don’t have it too much. I can’t find it. It comes to me every once in a while, like every 15 or 25 years, but oh no, there was the one about Rosie.

Glennon Doyle:

Can you tell us one of those three stories?

Cher:

All right, I’ll tell you the Rosie story. So I love Rosie and she works on the road with us, and I just adore her, right? And we had this new guy as a road manager, is that what he was? As a roadie, and he didn’t think much of us because he had worked in rock and roll and thought we were just idiots. And so, one night he came to pick up everybody from the hotel, and he saw Rosie come to the bus and shut the door on her. And so Rosie called me. So when this guy came in, I pushed him up against the wall and I said, “Motherfucker, you will be gone when she’s still here.”

Glennon Doyle:

God, I love you so much. Oh, of course, of course it was a righteous anger.

Cher:

Yeah, yeah.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah.

Cher:

But I was pretty much uncontrolled.

Glennon Doyle:

Interesting. Okay.

Abby Wambach:

I’m glad you picked that one.

Glennon Doyle:

I want to talk to you Cher, about women and money for a minute. So there’s the two favorite sets of words that anyone has ever said, that I’ve ever heard anyone say. And the first set of words is when my children have said… No the second, my second favorite is when my children told me that they loved me. My first favorite set of words that has ever been uttered by a human being is the words-

Cher:

Oh, mom I am a rich man.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah.

Cher:

It seems that girls like that.

Glennon Doyle:

Yes. Okay, so just in case no one has heard it, your mom sits you down and says, Cher.

Cher:

No, we were standing.

Glennon Doyle:

You were standing.

Amanda Doyle:

You tell the story.

Glennon Doyle:

You tell it.

Cher:

So we’re in the kitchen and we’re by the dining room table, which is not in the dining room. It’s like the kitchen table. And I was telling her that I wanted to make this movie, but I didn’t have enough money and I didn’t see where I was going to get it, or I couldn’t figure it out, and I didn’t know who to go to and blah, blah, blah, blah. And my mom said, “Babe, you should marry a rich man.” And I went, “Mom, I am a rich man.” And the other day I saw it on a painting, and sometimes I see it on a needle point like on a pillow.

Glennon Doyle:

Yes. Yes.

Cher:

It seems to appeal to us.

Glennon Doyle:

So you have made and lost and made fortunes. You have supported so many people. You have had times in your life when you’ve had complete control over your money and times it’s been stolen from you and times you didn’t even know what you made. Cher, what do you want women to know about money?

Cher:

It’s hard to learn about money, especially when you’re poor. It’s really hard because it scares you. And what you have to do is keep your head down and find out what people are doing with it, because some people are not always good. So you have to try to find out what it means, what your money means, what you’re doing, what people are doing to you, because it’s not easy. Also, I trusted Sonny. Big mistake. And I asked him, which was always a huge thing for me. It was like, “Son, when just tell me what day or time or year or situation were we having when you thought it was okay to take all my money?” And he said, “I always knew you’d leave me.”

Glennon Doyle:

Which wasn’t an answer.

Cher:

No, because he didn’t have a good one.

Glennon Doyle:

No.

Amanda Doyle:

Or maybe that was his answer, because he knew that you were the prize, you’re the talent thing. So he was at least going to get the money when you left.

Cher:

It’s kind of rough too. That’s a good answer in theory, but-

Amanda Doyle:

It’s still bullshit.

Cher:

It’s just not good because I was there by his side working every moment. It wasn’t like he deserved it.

Glennon Doyle:

Oh God, no.

Cher:

And to say, I did it because I knew you’d always leave me, is just bullshit.

Amanda Doyle:

It’s abusive. It’s a terrible thing. What was the moment when you learned that those contracts that your company did not in fact belong to you, that you were contracted to work for a company that was named for you, but you owned 0% of.

Cher:

Right. Cher Enterprises.

Amanda Doyle:

Cher Enterprises. He owned 95% and the lawyer owned five and you owned zero, and that you could only work for that company.

Cher:

Yes. That made me really, really angry and disappointed in him because it wasn’t that he was just taking my money. He was making it so I couldn’t earn any.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, yeah.

Cher:

And David told me.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, that was a beautiful story.

Cher:

Yeah. David just said, “Sweetheart, this is not good. We have to do something about this.” But it took us a long time. And finally my lawyer said, “You have to get divorced, and then you could break the contract.” But when I broke the contract, there was no money to get, and the judge made me pay him $2 million. He just said, “Miss, in America, we don’t welch on contracts. We don’t try to pull out of contracts.” And I said, well, I didn’t say it, but I thought, well, what do you do about people who steal your money? How does that grab you?

Abby Wambach:

Well, in America, we let husbands steal money from their wives.

Cher:

Right.

Abby Wambach:

That’s what we do.

Cher:

Right. Okay, fine. Well, then I went to work.

Glennon Doyle:

And you went to work and you always went to work.

Cher:

But then in the end, I said, “Son, I can’t do this all by myself. I just can’t do it. So you’re going to have to help me.” I know I’m killing myself out here, and you’re going to have to help me. You won’t get your money very soon if you don’t give me a hand.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah. We just are so delighted to ask you as queer women and queer advocates, we are big fans of Chaz, who you have called the strongest person in your family, which is so beautiful.

Cher:

Yes.

Glennon Doyle:

Talk to us a little bit. We have so many listeners because we are queer whose children are coming out or transitioning. And it can be just a wonderful but scary time for a parent where so much is gained and some things are lost and it can be confusing and hard. Can you talk to us a little bit how that has gone for you and what you would say to parents?

Cher:

I was terrible. I was terrible. Okay? I was just terrible. And I was terrible when Chaz said I’m gay. I was terrible. It was ridiculous. I don’t want to support all my friends. I mean disappoint. But I was really nervous about what Chaz would face.

Glennon Doyle:

Yes.

Cher:

I couldn’t. I couldn’t do anything. But then we were going to Al-Anon together, and we’ve been going to Al-Anon for a while, and then Chaz came in and said, “I want to do this.” And I was like, “Okay.” But then after that I started to get really nervous.

Amanda Doyle:

After he told you about the transition?

Cher:

No.

Amanda Doyle:

Oh.

Cher:

After he said, this is what I want to do, and you’ll notice that in the beginning I called Chaz, Chaz and I got an okay. So it was really rough and then it just was fine. And I don’t know what I had to go through, but now it’s great. But I don’t know what made me go through all that stuff. I know I was really nervous about what was going to happen. I was really frightened about what would happen and what kind of backlash he would have. And at that time too, it wasn’t like everybody was doing this. It was like there were people who were transitioning, but I was nervous for Chaz.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah. I think that is so fair. And we talk about it all the time, that it’s often not that you’re scared of your kid, you’re scared for your kid, and you’re scared about the world. And I don’t think it’s disappointing that you say that. I think it’s so honest and it’s a gift because it gives parents permission to not nail it the first time, but to keep trying.

Cher:

Well, yes. And I have to say, I was just frightened. I was just frightened. When I think about it, I wasn’t the person that I should have been. I wasn’t the person that I wanted to be or maybe not wanted to be, I didn’t know how to be maybe, but everyone would expect me to go, “Oh yeah, that’s great.” But now we have a great relationship, really great fun, and we work together in a project, on a couple of projects and it’s great. Chaz is a great person. Chaz is so much more together than I am.

Glennon Doyle:

What have you found to be the hardest thing about parenting?

Cher:

Oh God. Not screwing it up. Oh, and I do all the time. I’m a mess. Sometimes. And my kids have had to put up with so much for me, it’s not easy being the child of a famous person. I think the best time we had when Chaz was young, it was Chaz and Gina, her best friend. And when we were on the road, they were working for me in Vegas, and they were having the best time and we were all having a great time. And Elijah was little, and we just were out there in Vegas and having the best time, except it was a bitch in Vegas then. And everyone said, “Oh, Cher went to the elephant’s graveyard.”

Glennon Doyle:

I mean, Cher. Okay, give us some advice.

Cher:

Everybody and their brother wants to be in Las Vegas.

Amanda Doyle:

And everyone’s wearing the naked dress at the Met and everyone’s showing their belly button. Who did it first? Cher.

Abby Wambach:

Cher did it.

Cher:

I probably didn’t do it, I just did it.

Amanda Doyle:

No, you did. You were the first one to share your belly button on TV.

Cher:

No, I know that. Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. And the Met dress, I must say, no one’s ever done it like Bob, because I was naked under it.

Glennon Doyle:

Oh God. It was just a work of God damned art.

Cher:

Well, he’s an artist.

Glennon Doyle:

Speaking of everyone saying that you are going to the elephant graveyard, tell us how to survive being any sort of woman in the world with people saying all the shit that they’re always saying. How does one, if you can do what you have done and been so excellent for so long in the face of all of the shit, how?

Cher:

I just wouldn’t give up, I just wouldn’t stop. I didn’t know how to do anything else. And I have this picture in my mind that I realized it’s like I’m like a bumper car, and if I hit a wall, I’m going to back up and I’m going to go in another direction. And that’s all that was left for me. I didn’t really know another way. I didn’t know how to do anything else. And so when I hit one bad thing, I went to New York and became an actress. I don’t know how I did it. It was like such a fluke.

Glennon Doyle:

A fluke. And then you’re the most amazing actor on the planet. You just kept fluking your way into being the most amazing.

Cher:

Well, no, getting my first job was really an accident. And I have to thank my mom because I’d gone to do an audition for Joe Papp and he said, “You know, Cher, you’re really good.” Well, first I’ve gone to do an audition for Mike Nichols, and he didn’t have all that much to say. And I said to him, “You know what? I’m really talented, and one day you’re going to be sorry.”

Glennon Doyle:

Yes. Loved that.

Cher:

Right. So Francis says, if you’re going to be an actress, and so did Shelley Winters, get your ass to New York. So I got my ass to New York, did the audition. It wasn’t that good. Actually, it wasn’t not good. It was quite good. But he said, and I can’t tell you, but there are two kinds of women and you’re not the one I need for this part.

So anyway, so I get to New York and Chaz is living with Lee Strasberg and Anna, Lee and Anna and their kids. And so Randy and I, who was also living with them, Randy and I were going to do this thing for Joe Papp. And so he went up to Lee and he said, “Lee, Cher wants to know, would you give her some help on this?” And he said, “Cher knows too much already.” And he turned around and walked away. And I just, well, that’s not very nice. So anyway, so we go to do the thing for Joe Papp, and then when I come out, there’s a thing, you know those memo things that say somebody called?

Glennon Doyle:

Yes.

Cher:

So Robert Altman had called me, and the thing was that my mom and Catherine had been friends and Robert too. So my mom knew I was in New York and I’d given her my number and all that. So my mom calls, but she’s gotten my number mixed up with Robert and Catherine’s number. And my mom calls their house and she said, “Hi, is Cher there?” And the guy is kind of not so nice. And he said, “No.” And she said, “Oh, well, I thought Cher was there.” And then he said, “What would Cher be doing here?” And then she went, “Wait a minute. Robert?” And he said, “Georgia?” And she said, “Oh, I screwed this thing up.” So he said, “What’s Cher doing here?” And she said, “Well, she wants to be an actress.” And he said, “Ah, okay.” So in a little while, he calls me and said, so your mom says you want to be an actress?

And I went, yeah. And he said, well, I’m going to send you a script. I’m not offering it to you, but I’m sending it to you. I said, okay. And so it gets there late and then he calls me and I went, “Okay, I know the part that you want me to play, but I can’t do it.” And he said, “Do you have a job?” And I said no. He said, “Well, then get your ass over here.” So I went over and then I said, well, I’m dyslexic and I could read or I can act, but I can’t do them both. And he said, I don’t care. I just want to hear how your voice sounds. And I said, all right, but I can tell you I can do one of the parts. And he said, all right. He was exhausted and exasperated and whatever. So we sat down, all the women were there, Sandy and Karen and Sudi, and we were all sitting down on the floor.

And so I read the part that I knew I couldn’t do, and then I read the part that I knew I could do, and Sandy said it was the worst reading I had ever heard in my life. But she said, from the first moment you started it, I was fascinated. And then I said, okay, well that’s always good. And then Robert asked me, he said, you’re right. You can’t play that part, but you can’t play that part. And then we’re talking and we’re talking and he said, what did you think of Popeye?

And I said, I thought you ruined it. And then everybody who was in the room turned like when a shark is coming and fish are just, and they’re just there swimming. And then they all turned in the middle sideways and you can’t see them and they’re gone. So everybody was gone. And then he said, God damn it everybody says that. So anyway, so I got the part and then I go on Broadway. And then on a Wednesday, so I’m doing my matinee and I loved doing matinees, so I come offstage and Mike is there, and so he said, “You were right, you’re talented, and I’m really sorry.” And the truth was I had broken up with my boyfriend and he had come back and was backstage and I was really more interested in seeing my boyfriend than getting a part in this movie.

So then he said, it’s with Meryl Streep. And I went, okay. Then I get back to my apartment, my sister’s there, and I went, Jesus Christ. I can’t do a movie with Meryl Streep. And I’m packing. And then I start unpacking and then my sister starts packing me. And so I end up getting the job, and then I ended up going to Texas.

Glennon Doyle:

Do you love acting or do you love singing more? Or what do you love the most? What’s the art form that you love the most to do?

Cher:

They’re different. Acting is concentrating and singing is not. Singing is just, you stand on the stage and you just let your voice come out. And it can be really big and it can be soft, it can be whatever. And then acting is getting small inside and then letting things come out. And they can come out loud and they can come out angry. They can come out any way, but it’s more of a internal thing.

Glennon Doyle:

Oh, that’s beautiful. Okay. I have one last question. What’s your next dream?

Cher:

Oh, my next dream is this album I’m going to do with Alexander because I shouldn’t be singing at this age because it’s not easy. And I didn’t know I would be, when I made the Christmas album, I didn’t think I could sing anymore, and then all of a sudden I could. Then now I just want to be able to do it again because the songs he got, he used to be Vice President of Def Jam. The songs he got are so genius.

Glennon Doyle:

How wonderful. Well, we can’t wait for that. Your book is beautiful. Also, are the other two parts coming out? How will that happen?

Cher:

Well, there’s not two parts coming out. There’s another part coming out.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay. And when is that coming out?

Cher:

I have no idea.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay.

Amanda Doyle:

When she gets to it, don’t push her.

Glennon Doyle:

I’m just saying.

Amanda Doyle:

She’s doing a lot.

Cher:

Oh wait, next Christmas.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay. Oh, great. Okay. Wonderful.

Cher:

For a long time, doesn’t it?

Glennon Doyle:

It will be worth the wait. Cher, thank you for never giving up. Like you just said, thank you for being just a gorgeous example of freedom and courage your whole life. This hour has been an honor for us and we are forever grateful to you.

Cher:

Thank you. But courage has not been the strongest thing. It’s just moving forward. I never thought of it as courage. It was just not giving up.

Glennon Doyle:

That’s even more inspiring. Then you don’t have to have the courage, you can just not stop while you’re scared.

Cher:

You just don’t give up. Right. You just don’t give up.

Abby Wambach:

Thank you so much, Cher.

Cher:

Bye-bye.

Glennon Doyle:

Bye, Cher.

Amanda Doyle:

Thank you. I never thought I’d be able to say that.

Glennon Doyle:

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you’d be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things. Following the pod helps you because you’ll never miss an episode. And it helps us because you’ll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner, or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you’re there, if you’d be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Burman. And the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.