How to Stop Pleasing & Start Living
September
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things Today. Today is a special-
Amanda Doyle:
And that one sounded like we could do hard things today, which actually might be a more accurate description. We’re not sure about tomorrow. We could do hard things today exclusively.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, listen, I have been thinking lately about why the one day at a time slogan is so important to people in the program, obviously. Sobriety is one day at a time, and I used to only think of it as of course, because life is so hard that I can’t think about not drinking or not… I can’t think about my whole life, I can only think of this one 24-hour period and that will make me less insane and I can just keep doing that one day at a time. But I think that one of the reasons also is because you get to start a fresh slate with… The concept of one day at a time, is that you’re not the history of every relationship, the past of everything, the future fear. It’s like recently someone brought up the concept of, I used to be a teacher and you used to have these charts of cards for behavior and it was like everybody would start on green every day and then maybe if you had some challenges, you would be on yellow. But every morning, green.
Green cards for everybody every single morning no matter what. And that is a super important concept of one day at a time, too, that if you live that way, you’re promising yourself, today I will deal with the relationships that I have today and not bring all of our past history to every single situation. Like, seeing everybody with a beginner’s mind is kind of a cool way to live.
Amanda Doyle:
I really like that. I really like that. I also like the concept of… So I was listening to speech that Federer was giving to a graduating class and he said… He’s that tennis player, one of the best ever. He was saying to them, “So, I have won 80% of all of my matches, which is a very, very high number.” So he’s one of the top players in the entire universe. 80% win. He said, “I’ve only won 54% of the points.” So that’s fascinating, right? Because it’s like I feel like we think in order to be nailing it, we have to be nailing 80% of every day or we have to… But the best in the world in order to get to 80% wins only wins four more percent than the next person of points.
And he said, “The reason why I have been so good is because every point is just a point. If I absolutely kill it and it’s going to be on ESPN highlights and it’s unbelievable, that’s still just a point. If I come up and the other guy just smokes me and I look ridiculous, that’s just a point. And every one of them is equal and all I need is one more than the other guy. And then I get my win. It doesn’t matter. It’s just one at a time. And the only way that you can have clarity to be focused in on the next point is if you completely let go of the last one, whether it was amazing or terrible.” And I just think that’s interesting. When we think about… I think we berate ourselves for being like, “I was only 51% decent today.” Why isn’t that a win? That’s a win. 51%?
Glennon Doyle:
That’s Federer level or whatever.
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a hero. A hero.
Glennon Doyle:
Good stuff. So you see my one day at a time and you raise it, nope, one point at a time.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Just one moment at a time.
Amanda Doyle:
One point at a time. And it’s always a new tally.
Glennon Doyle:
Yep.
Amanda Doyle:
Every time.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
That point is over. We’re not thinking about that anymore. New day. We’re all on green again.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, P.S. that’s why in my classroom, the system never worked because I always felt like we should start over every couple hours. It felt so mean. Some kid makes a mistake at 8:00 AM, they have to look at the yellow card at 2:00 PM? No, thank you.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, to be clear-
Glennon Doyle:
We contain multitudes.
Amanda Doyle:
… everyone’s looking at it. Everyone knows that. Johnny’s always on orange.
Glennon Doyle:
I know. It’s awful, actually. It’s awful. Everybody starts over every five minutes. All right. Okay. Let’s hear from some pod squatters. This makes me so happy when we hear their beautiful questions in voicemail. So sister, you and I will do our best without our Abby. She’s on the road.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s terrible.
Glennon Doyle:
I know, I know. I’ll try to think of what I think she would say and then I’ll try to say those things, too. Here is Jennifer.
Jennifer:
Hi, Glennon and Abby. My name is Jennifer. I’m a long time listener. I love your podcast. I just was seeking some advice about a situation that I’ve recently been in. One of my friends recently got into a relationship and has kind of stopped spending time with his friends. I feel like every single time I try to plan something with him, he bails or he comes up with these fake excuses when in reality I know he’s just spending time with his new girlfriend. And I’m wondering how you think I should approach the situation because I feel like this is super common with people. They get into relationships and then they drop all their friends and then they break up with that person and then they have no friends anymore because they dropped all their friends. But I care about this person and I don’t want to lose my friendship with them. So, any advice on what I should do? Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you have any initial responses, Amanda?
Amanda Doyle:
I do.
Glennon Doyle:
Or, do you want me to go first?
Amanda Doyle:
I do have initial responses.
Glennon Doyle:
I can’t wait.
Amanda Doyle:
I feel like Jennifer’s feelings are hurt.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
I feel like she has a sad because she wants to hang out with her friend and her friend is in this new relationship and she feels sad and mad about it. She wants to hang out with her friend. And to that, I say Jennifer, I understand that. And that sounds like it hurts a lot. And in a perfect world, this wouldn’t be happening. And also, when you first start in a relationship and you fall in love, you are obscenely selfish and self-absorbed in that love. And as personal as it feels to you, Jennifer, it is not personal to you. And when you say you care about them and you don’t want to lose the friendship with them, I think you won’t lose the friendship with them if you remain a friend to them when they come out of their selfish period because they will. Whether the selfish period ends when they are broken up or when the selfish period ends when they have gone through their initial, we are absolutely bonkers in love, they will come back and that’s the natural order of things.
And if you love them, you will still be there to be their friend and you can tell them that it hurt your feelings, then they will be in a position to hear it because they will no longer be in their crazy place. It sounds like a little bit like you might want to give them what they deserve and what they deserve is to maybe have a big F you that they dropped you and they had their girlfriend. So if you want to give them what they deserve on the other end of this, you can, but you won’t have a friendship. You’ll have to give them the grace of understanding that this is what happens, and you get loony when you first fall in love.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I feel like it’s just, it’s resisting. This whole concept of friends should be this certain way and if you fall in love, you should still spend as much time with us as you do with your new person. It’s actually just a bunch of made up shoulds. I mean, actually, so here’s one thing that happened recently is that I have a kid who’s in love and I am so happy about it and it’s wonderful. And then also I started to feel like Jennifer and I am almost 50.
Amanda Doyle:
You love this person, you don’t want to lose them.
Glennon Doyle:
I was like, “But what about wouldn’t we spend time?” And so, what I did was I told myself that I was only worried about this child’s individuality and person’s-
Amanda Doyle:
Yes, they are meshing with this person-
Glennon Doyle:
… individual phase.
Amanda Doyle:
… that’s not healthy for them. It has nothing to do with me wanting to mesh with them again.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. And also just be clear that this relationship is utterly beautiful, not a red flag to be found. Okay? But I presented it as this concern for maintaining your individual self. Whatever. I said, maybe you should. Whenever you’re saying to someone else you should, you’re just fucked. It’s just, that’s the red flag right there. Right? But anyway, I was saying, “You should spend more time here. You should spend more time alone with yourself,” by which I meant with me. And the child looked at me and said, “I think I’m hearing what you’re saying, but I want to be with them. I want to spend my time with them.” Now, pause. Oh, okay. So you are actually very happy right now. You are so excited about this person that you want to with them. I only want to spend time with people who want to spend time with me.
I do not want to present a case to a child or a friend or anybody that presents a case that shows that they should spend more time with me, so that I don’t know, best case scenario, they rearrange their life so they’re spending less time with the person they want to and more time with me. And then they’re annoyed that they’re spending time with me because they want to be with the other person. So if I’m Jennifer, I’m thinking, “Okay, I’m lonely right now and sad. That is my problem. That is not my friend’s problem. My friend is not lonely and sad. My friend is happy as shit. I might have to figure out how to meet that need for myself in a different way during this time. And if I do that and find some connection and joy in whatever in a different place, I might just be the kind of person that that friend wants to hang out with again, not out of duty or some fake sense of justice, but desire.”
Truly at the end of the day, relationships only work with desire because you want to be with the person and nobody wants to be with a person who is shaming them into hanging out with them.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. And I also get the hurt that happens when it’s like, “Wait, so I was good enough and fun enough and desirable enough to want to hang out with me all the time until this girlfriend came along and now I’m not?” I get that that feels like a rejection and it sort of is. So that’s a real pain of a thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Totally.
Amanda Doyle:
So I’m not trying to minimize that or feel like, Jennifer, you shouldn’t feel a little bit shitty about this. That is very-
Glennon Doyle:
Sure.
Amanda Doyle:
… and especially people over this over and over where they’re like, “Oh, I have a friend until my friend gets a partner and then I don’t have a friend anymore and now I have a friend until my friend gets a partner.” It sucks.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. But it’s also, there’s the element of we know. We know what happens with people when they fall in love. Their brains are different. It’s like you’re on drugs. Actually, your brain is lit up different. You’re in a different place. So, there is just sort of the acknowledgment of, I guess I just feel bad for everyone if everyone is going to be sad and hurt again and again every time their friend ditches them for a romantic love because that’s never going to stop happening. That’s what happens to people’s brains is they lose their minds. I remember it. It’s almost like you just have to be like, oh, make a word for it and know that if you are going to have good friends over a long periods of time, you are going to lose them sometimes to this romantic thing unless they are so highly evolved that they have found a way to maintain sanity in an insane time.
Amanda Doyle:
And then also, the way that they are friends during that time is that they don’t hang out with you. The way that you are a friend to them during that time is you give them grace and don’t shame them for not hanging out with you. And that doesn’t mean you’re not friends. It means, they are friends going through this cycle that happens inevitably, and then the other side of it, you’ll be friends. You will be friends who hang out. Now you’re friends who aren’t going to hang out very much.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, just pretend they have the flu or something. If they had the flu, you would not be like, “And Johnny never calls me back and he gets the flu and then he’s not, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” Just, it’s the same. Okay. So, Jennifer, I hope we’ve solved that for you. Let’s hear from Ryan.
Maeve:
Hi, it’s Maeve Ryan. I love your show so much and I’ve never called in before, but your episode with Allegra Castens just blew my mind. I’ve been listening to you guys since day one and I just wanted to thank you for that episode because I am soon to be 47 years old. I think you are also this age, Glennon, and I have always known I was a little OCD, but like Allegra mentioned, I used it as an adjective. And I took a quiz during your podcast, during your episode and realized I am very high OCD and I’m like, my heart’s racing because it’s just amazing to me that I could have lived 46 years and never taken the time to talk to my therapist about this. So I am going to do that when I see her next. And my question to you is, is it normal for people to be in their late forties before they even realize that they do have this mental health disorder? So, thank you so much and keep doing what you’re doing. You’re saving lives.
Amanda Doyle:
I love her, and I love Allegra Castens. And this caller is talking about episode 306, if you haven’t listened to that. It is about the truth about what it is like to be someone with OCD. And it was really powerful, very powerful episode. I think it is normal. It’s typical, it shouldn’t be, but I think it is typical that especially women don’t learn of their diagnoses until a lot later. In fact, on average for OCD specifically because it’s such a shame laden, misunderstood disease, the average person goes between 14 and 17 years before they get a diagnosis. So, it is very typical. I do feel like there is just so many more late stage diagnoses going on with women right now of everything of autism and ADHD and OCD and so much. I mean, do you feel like you’re hearing about that a lot just anecdotally and-
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I mean, I think we forget how recent… We didn’t even, the word neurodivergent is now on the tip of all of our lips, thank God. We weren’t even saying it six years ago in the general population, the awareness that people like Allegra and so many people we’ve had on this pod are bringing to the culture and then the magic of hearing people’s stories and then going, “Oh my God, wait, I thought… That sounds like me.” And then taking that to professionals and figuring out that, I hear again and again, and I know this on a completely different level just with queerness, is like, it’s not just the freedom that comes from like, “Oh, I thought I was damaged. I’m this.”
Since these are all very different than damage. This is not damage. It’s a different way of being. But then you also… So there’s the freedom and relief of that, but then there’s the community, then you find all the other people and that is an equal gift. But I think also we have the double bind of the awareness has been so low, but also every study that’s ever done is the male presentation of whatever that thing is. So, women finding out that they have these experiences comes so much later because we have to figure it out from behind and inside and whatever, because the studies are never done on women.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. The symptoms of autism and of ADHD look very different for girls and boys and women and men. They were typically looking for the symptoms, the characteristics that they thought were just the characteristics. And then to find out, no, those are the way they present in boys and men. And so, you didn’t find them over here because you were looking for the wrong thing. So 80% of women with autism are misdiagnosed. That is an alarmingly high number. And so, they’re misdiagnosed with other various disorders and have to keep going through the process, keep going through the process until they find it. It’s also women with ADHD, most women with ADHD do not get diagnosed until their late thirties or early forties. That’s most. That is wild. You’ve gone through presumably all of your educational experiences. You’ve gone through your formative trying to figure out who you are, what you’re capable of, what’s possible for you all during a time where you had no resources or understanding of how to cope, just felt like there was something wrong with you.
Glennon Doyle:
And I’m sure that you didn’t just feel that because every institution you are in only rewards the behavior of neurotypical people and the ability to sit and to stare and to not move and to acclimate and to concentrate for… You probably over time have a lot of shame to undo because you were probably taught that you were wrong, which is a slice of insanity. You were just not built for the structures that you were put inside of. And also just discovering people discover so many gifts that they have to offer the world with their particular brand of brain.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
But no, it’s not unusual. It’s happening and thank God.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It really is never too late.
Amanda Doyle:
The blessing of it is of all this awareness, and they think a lot of it has to do with the internet stuff, people telling their stories, saying, “This is how it looks for me. Oh, you won’t find this in medical journal because it hasn’t been studied yet.” And people being able to see themselves in those stories. So actually over the last 12 years, the ADHD diagnoses in women between 30 and 50 have doubled. So, it is happening now. People are finding this out. It is a new wave of women being able to understand the way their brains and bodies work. And in addition to, the good news is on the whole, when they’ve looked at what happens with the late diagnosis, the overwhelming feeling is that people feel better about themselves and that their quality of life improved on knowing themselves and understanding their experiences retroactively in light of this. And there’s a major relief in community and also there’s a grief.
Glennon Doyle:
Of course.
Amanda Doyle:
Because you’re looking back at your whole life thinking, “If I had known this, if I had had the resources, if I had had the accommodations I needed, if all of that…” That’s a lot to grieve, too. But the good news is, even in spite of that grief, if you think this might be part of your life, people who get a diagnosis say that their quality of life improved and they feel better about themselves. So, there seems to be something it unlocks for people and that makes their lives better.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, that makes sense. And it’s very… It makes you kind of appreciate the shithole internet. It’s like that is one really good thing.
Amanda Doyle:
One good thing about it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, that’s one really good thing, that information is not as siloed, that you can see yourself in all of the democratization of storytelling, allows people to find themselves in places that they never could have before. And it’s funny, there’s always the, “Oh God, now everybody’s gay now. Oh, now everybody’s non-binary. Now everybody has ADHD.” That is a hilarious back pushing of this thing. And it’s interesting to think that way, I will say that. It is also just a reminder that neurodivergence nor queerness is contagious, but information and freedom is contagious. So to now raise people in a culture where we have all of this information and people can find themselves early and then express what they are early is so beautiful. It will just make people live with less suffering earlier on. And it’s not that everyone’s gay now. It’s not that it’s… People have always been gay, it’s just that people have not always heard themselves and been able to express who they are as early. But, yay. And thank God for Allegra. Oh my God, she’s amazing. Okay, let’s hear from Jess.
Jess:
My name is Jess. I have something that I wanted to ask about that I have been noticing in some of my friends’ relationships and marriages, and I just am really bothered by it, and I wanted your take. Something that I’ve realized is that a spouse or a partner will have a boundary, I guess you can call it with their counterpart. And it will be that they can’t hang out alone with someone of the opposite sex in a heterosexual relationship. So for example, I have friends whose husbands or wives would be uncomfortable with their spouse being alone with someone of the opposite sex or hanging out with them even with kids, even at coffee, even driving in the car somewhere. And this just really bothers me, and I think that it seems like it’s more common than people act like it is, and to me it feels like a piece of control and the urge to control people. But I’m just curious if my intuition is right, that this is really toxic behavior. Anyway, that’s all. Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. I would like to suggest that we discuss Jess’s question, but I don’t want to discuss it in terms of whether it’s good or bad. I feel like judging everyone’s relationships like that because I don’t know-
Amanda Doyle:
Am I allowed to discuss it in terms of whether it’s good or bad?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, you can. But before that, I do know a couple things. Okay? I know that a boundary is not telling someone else what they can or cannot do. That is not a boundary, that is control. A boundary is what I will do or not do. Okay?
Amanda Doyle:
What if your boundary is, I will not have a wife who eats dinner with a man.
Glennon Doyle:
Then that is a person who, if that wife wants to do that, then they should get divorced. But what that man can’t say is, my boundary is for you not to do that. They can and they do. But what I am saying is that from my studying of this situation, when Jess says, “Is that control? The answer is yes. If a person is saying, “In order for me to be comfortable and safe, you have to do this thing,” that is control. A boundary is in order for me to be comfortable and safe, I’m going to do this thing. Secondly, I also want to say that I’ve had personal experience in this situation. I was in a high control group called the Evangelical Church for a long time, and we used to sit in the pews while the minister would say to us, “Your marriage is not safe. You should never be in a room with a man alone, Glennon. You, Craig, should never be in a room alone with a woman.” That was preached to us week after week after week.
So, that is a very real thing that is taught to people. I, as a person who has created lots and lots of rules and controls, anorexia, religion, all these things, to protect myself from myself, this is all from people who are scared shitless of themselves. That’s the only reason to make all of these rules around other people is because you are scared shitless of yourself. That’s what anorexia, I will protect myself from my own appetite. And these rules are, I will protect this institution from my own appetite, I guess, desire, right? So this is the way people act when they don’t trust themselves. I feel hesitant to judge it with inside relationships other than to say way that I see it. But I will say that I find it abhorrent, and should be illegal when these ideas are transferred into professional arenas. So I am a man who is a boss, and because of my piousness and my religion, I will not take a meeting with this woman, which is very fucking convenient for patriarchy because then no woman has access to power.
So when this idea transfers into outside of the little family unit, then we all have a problem. That is not your right to control. So that’s what I have to say. Go ahead, sissy bear.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. So this is all from the so-called Billy Graham rule. This all stems from, became very popular when Billy Graham said that he will never meet with a woman alone who is not his wife, not even in an elevator, like will not be in any kind of alone situation with a woman in order to “flee youthful lusts-
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, Jesus.
Amanda Doyle:
… and avoid appearances of compromise or suspicion.” So Billy Graham says that this is his rule, everyone like evangelicals jump on the train and were like, “Yes, good rule. Everyone adopt this rule.” That Mike Pence, as vice president, also, his rule was that he will not dine with a woman without his wife present. That obviously is incredibly complicated when the studies showed that the most mutually advantageous negotiations occur over meals. When you have the vice president of the United States unable to reach a mutually beneficial negotiation with a woman, that is clearly a problem because a woman would not be-
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And the fact that she’s only seeing them as sexual beings.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, that’s the overriding, that’s the thing. If a woman is only a woman is only a woman, and let us be clear, the rule comes inside of evangelical patriarchy. That’s the origin of the rule.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
You can say all day long that it applies equally to men and women because these women are also agreeing not to meet with men. The rule was called the Billy Graham Rule because his rule was he would not meet with a woman. Why doesn’t he meet with a woman? Because women are temptresses. There’s only one woman who’s virtuous, just like there’s only one Mary, that is his wife. Everyone else is Eve. Everyone else is tempting. Everyone else is dangerous, dangerous, exclusively sexual, wholly sexual. And as a corollary, women, you can’t meet with men, not because the women will have a sexual appetite, but because the men cannot be trusted around the women because they can’t have any sense of responsibility for themselves. When they’re with a woman, all bets are off. They have no internal sense of control. So, it’s tricky because it’s presented as this respect for the spouse.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s bullshit.
Amanda Doyle:
But when you scratch just a tiny bit deeper, it is not only as you said, no respect for self and self-control, but respect for a woman as having any kind of multidimensionality, because if her sexual nature is so overriding that it makes everything else she is, a-
Glennon Doyle:
A lobbyist for the plant.
Amanda Doyle:
… business woman, a lobbyist, anything under the sun, a, oh, a mentor, a mentee, a anything, it means you cannot be anything else that would override what is your primary identity, which is a sexual temptress of me.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. And it’s super interesting to think about if it were really about protecting you from a deadly sin of lust. Okay, it’s not, it’s about control and access to power and not meeting with women, but if it were really about that, then do you also not meet with powerful men to do business deals because that might tempt you into greed. If you’re trying to protect yourself from all of these energies that might corrupt you, I can suggest a few more energies that the Bible suggests that you should protect yourself from, so you better avoid all of those temptations. But no, it’s just sex so that we can just keep it to women.
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, just not to mention how… I mean, this is all easy to say, but how personally humiliating that must be. I’m just trying to imagine if I have a working relationship with a man, or a friendship, and I feel like there’s a real mutual respect, a real connection in terms of whether it’s professional or whether it’s over some kind of shared interest, not at all sexual in nature. And then he says to me, “Oh no, I can’t ride the elevator with you,” or, “I can’t go to that. I can’t go to lunch to discuss that business thing with you because I have this rule with my partner.” Suddenly it’s like, you might as well be standing there like… It’s like totally naked and exposed like, “But I was never a sexual thing to you, but you just told me I am.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
And that means to everyone, that’s what I am?
Glennon Doyle:
And by the way, this stuff just doesn’t… Why are the rates of, no offense to porn, but porn and cheating and all of those so unbelievably high in these high control groups? That’s the irony of all of this. They’re making all of these rules, and then it also trickles down into the culture in so many ways. If there were no Billy Graham rule, then maybe our kids wouldn’t be at school with the girls wearing shirts that are tank tops getting sent to the principal’s office.
Amanda Doyle:
Don’t even, don’t even.
Glennon Doyle:
Because interrupting their education. Why? Because they’re uncomfortable? Because no, because their arms might tempt the boys in the classroom and might distract them from their education, so the girl’s education is immediately interrupted and they’re brought to the principal’s office, and this happens all the time.
Amanda Doyle:
And also, Glennon, they are told, sixth graders, seventh graders, eighth graders, my daughter’s in fourth grade, she’s not allowed to wear tank tops. So they are telling fourth graders, fifth graders, sixth graders, which by the way, I’ve said, “You can wear a tank top any fucking day of the week you want.” And I double dare them to call me and tell me.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, I kind of hope they do. I kind of hope they do. That’d be so fun.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, it would be amazing. But what they’re saying is, you are sexual.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
You are a sexual creature above all. You are not a student that has equal footing in this. You are above everything else, a sexual creature that we have to protect ourselves from at fourth grade.
Glennon Doyle:
Yep. Yeah. It’s interesting also because all of that comes from Christian puritanical shit. And then, since we have no separation of church and state in this country, that’s all just a joke. It’s just all permeates to these things. But when I have this conversation with evangelicals or Christian people, the vibe, that Billy Graham vibe has so infiltrated the culture that everybody really thinks that way. It’s like, “No, the boys will be tempted and we can’t let the boys be distracted and go down a hard road, so the girls have to do this thing.” But when you go into this scripture, when you take away the culture and actually go to the meat of it, it’s hilarious because Jesus is always like, “Okay, if your eye causes you to sin, then you should cut your eye out.” So okay, if we’re going to actually remove the Graham-ness of it and just go to the scripture of it, if Mary is sitting in class with a tank top and Johnny, his eye just can’t handle it, he’s just full of lust and sin and about to just explode.
Well, Jesus doesn’t say then Mary should put on a cardigan. This is none of Mary’s fucking business. Mary’s trying to learn her spelling words. If Johnny has a fucking problem with Mary’s arm, then Johnny should go to the principal’s office and get his eye scooped out.
Amanda Doyle:
The line at the nurse’s office is going to be very, very long.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a personal problem. It is not Mary’s problem in any way, it has nothing to do with Mary. Deal with it, Johnny. Scoop out your eyes, cut out your arms, whatever it takes, I guess. But don’t bother Mary. She’s trying to learn her capitals.
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, everyone do whatever the hell you’re going to do. I just feel really sad for those people. I’m like, that sucks, man. You have such a low estimation of yourself and your spouse that you’ve got to do that. For real?
Glennon Doyle:
It’s unfortunately. So we’re going to hear from Alice.
Alice:
Hey guys, this is Alice here. Here’s some irony. It’s frustrating to be friends with people pleasers because they won’t communicate what they want or need, which means it then falls on me to make all the decisions and it is tiresome. Here’s my question. How do I be a good partner or friend to recovering people pleasers? I know they have to do the work themselves, but is there anything I can do to help them on their way? Because frankly, this is exhausting.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m with Alice, man.
Amanda Doyle:
Under talked about phenomenon.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Thank you, Alice.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, agreed.
Amanda Doyle:
Good job, Alice.
Glennon Doyle:
This is a tricky one. And also, this is an important one to talk about because as we all become more aware of the dangers of people pleasing, there’s going to be a lot of us that are in people pleasing recovery. So it’s an important conversation to have. And it’s also a little bit confusing because if you’re friends with the people pleaser, are you? Do you even know who that person is?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. They might just be trying to please you. They might not even like you because they have already indicated that they’re just going to go with the flow. They don’t like the Chinese food, but they’re eating that. Maybe they also don’t like you.
Glennon Doyle:
You know how I started thinking about this recently is that I really… I have a couple people in my life who I feel like are, I don’t know that people pleaser is a strong enough word. It’s like a trauma response of survival that has to do with just morphing into whatever the person in front of me or situation in front of me or unit needs. And so, it-
Amanda Doyle:
Are you talking about me right now?
Glennon Doyle:
No, no, but that’s hilarious.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
No, I’m not.
Amanda Doyle:
I just like to know.
Glennon Doyle:
It is a situation where if there’s a person in your life where you just can’t grip on, it’s like there is no there, there. And then it’s just extremely hard to be in relation with that person because what is that person? And then it’s doubled, the confusion is doubled by the fact that these types of people are usually very “nice.” So, you feel bad even being annoyed or being unable to whatever because they’re so nice that it feels like you should think they’re great, but you don’t even know who they are. You don’t know what they stand for. You don’t know what they like. You don’t know what, because they’re always just a mirror of whatever’s in front of them. And I don’t think that’s a simple situation. I don’t think it’s a little quirky personality trait. I think it’s a trauma response to people who in their families of origin just became, “Oh, I have to be basically be a ghost to survive. I have to be nothing. I have to be not solid. I have to be…”
And I think that’s a very, very hard thing to unlearn, and I think, I don’t know if you should continue relationships or whatever, but just even knowing that that is a trauma response is helpful for compassion. And then, I think of it in terms of, for me, I feel like it’s almost like trying to be friends with an addict, and it is because those are people who get their shots of dopamine or safety from the approval of other people’s faces. So, it’s not that they… Breaking people pleasers, it’s not just like, “Oh, I have to learn how to disappoint other people.” It’s, “I have to learn how to live without this shot of dopamine I get every time I please another person.” So it really is addiction recovery. It’s like, how do I sit with myself without… It’s like recovering from hustle culture or any other thing where you’re like, “Oh, but how do I get my worthiness or my shot of whatever?” It is very helpful for me to think of them as addicts.
Amanda Doyle:
Wow. And that, what you’re describing right now is kind of like if people pleasing was a spectrum, those are the most extreme versions of their vacant, I am empty and get filled up by the people around me and just sort of become them. I’m like tofu. I take on the flavor of whatever I am swimming in. And then, there’s a spectrum of people pleasing, too, where on the other end, you can be someone who just really prides yourself on going with the flow, which is I think what Alice is talking about. It’s just fucking exhausting to also be around people who won’t make a decision because when you’re going with the flow, all you’re doing is going with it. Someone else is making the flow.
Glennon Doyle:
Somebody’s the flow.
Amanda Doyle:
Going with the flow is a little bit like being a freeloader.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re freeloading on the flow.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
So I have been guilty of this. If it’s like, “Where are we going for dinner?” “Oh, I don’t care. I’m good with whatever, I’m good with whatever.” But what that is basically asking is for someone else to decide and then to execute on it. So that does probably get super annoying if you’re always the one, or one of the two people who always has to be the one to say, “No, here’s what we’re doing. Okay, is everyone okay with this?” And so, it’s good to know that you should have to do a little bit of work when people say, “What do you want to do?” To come up with, you don’t have to dictate, but you could say, you could come up with a couple ideas and say, “I’m happy to do this or this,” to help, to add a little bit to the situation because that feels like you’re just waiting for someone else to do the work.”
I also think that I feel very comfortable being in relationship with people that I know take care of themselves and say what they want and say what they need.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
I just feel like in my body, a comfort and a settling because I know that my job in that situation is just to take care of myself because they’re going to say what they want. If they’re thirsty, they’re going to get something to drink. If they don’t want to be here, they’re going to leave. So I don’t have to be tuned into whether they’re happy or not because I know they’re handling themselves.
Glennon Doyle:
Yep. Yeah, that means a lot to me, too. The thing about people pleasers is nobody can actually be like this. Nobody’s actually like this. It’s just a way you’re acting. We all get uncomfortable. We all have wants, we all have desires, we all have whatever. We all get pissed. So you’re just acting this way. So, when you’re with a people pleaser, you don’t know if they’re actually having fun. You don’t know if they want to be there. You just know, usually they’ll blow up or they’ll say, “Well, I wasn’t happy then during that time anyway,” so it’s hard to trust. I want to know if I’m with someone who’s not having a good time, I want them to tell me and leave.
I had a really cool experience a couple of weeks ago with somebody who called me for a favor for this cool project, and they asked the favor and then they said, “I just don’t know if this is too much or I just don’t want to put you in a bad position.” And I felt like, “Oh my God, this is my recovery.” I said, “I want to do this thing and I need you to know that you could always ask me for what you need because I will never do anything that I don’t want. I promise you that if you tell me something, if you ask me something and I don’t want to do it, I will say to you, ‘I don’t want to do that,’ or, ‘I’m uncomfortable with that.’ So you don’t have to worry about it. Just I will always tell you.”
Amanda Doyle:
Oh my God, did you feel like you’re like, I am singing from the top of a mountain.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s huge.
Glennon Doyle:
And she was this big producer person. She was like, “Awesome, really?” And I was like, “Yeah, I’ll just tell you. I’ll just say, ‘No, thank you.'” She was like, “Wow.”
Amanda Doyle:
And that’s beautiful because that frees that person’s system up. They don’t have to tie themselves into tangles for 45 minutes wondering if they should ask you something and they know if you say yes, you want to do it, and they’re also prepared for your no, because you’ve already forecast that there’s going to be things that you’re going to say no to.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. And it sticks to the point of like, we are all people pleasers. I just, I am people.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re like, “But my person I’m trying to please is mostly myself.” Mostly I am pleasing the people who is me, the people who is in this body.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. And what I find is that that in this weird way pleases everyone because they’re not constantly trying to take care of me or figure me out or deal with my bitterness because I’ve said yes to something that I didn’t want to, and then it seeps into everything else.
Amanda Doyle:
They’re not trying to figure out, why is she resentful for no good reason. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
No, because I might not be completely available or whatever, but you can trust me. You can trust I’m going to say… And that is a big thing. That is a really big thing. I can’t do it anymore. I won’t be in relationship with people who don’t take care of themselves because it’s just violent eventually.
Amanda Doyle:
I love Alice. Alice, tell your good people to listen to this part and give you suggestions on dinner and take up the space in their own body and just don’t freeload on the flow.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Because somebody is the flow, damn it. Alice is the flow.
Amanda Doyle:
Alice is flowing, flowing, flowing, and you’re like, “Oh, aren’t I a gift? I’m so easy-breezy,” and Alice is exhausted over here from flowing and flowing and flowing.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Yes, and I do, not now, but at some point I want to talk about the phenomena. I think we think of people as people pleases or not, but I actually have discovered recently that there’s a couple people in my life with whom I turn into tofu, people-pleasing. I don’t understand that phenomena. Like a couple people, I am gone. I don’t know where I am. I don’t know, that person that I just told you about on the phone with the producer, that person is non-existent. Why is it that with some people, the chemical reaction of that is you turn into a people… So is it not like people are people pleases or not, but we all have that capacity and there are some environments where we morph into this chameleon thing and why? I’m just curious about that.
Amanda Doyle:
Sure.
Glennon Doyle:
Maybe we could find somebody to talk to us about that.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m sure that’s true.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, let’s end this episode with Eli.
Eli:
Hi guys. Eli, he/him. Okay. I’m having a super tough morning and I’m out for a walk because I need some space and I’m listening to the podcast because I need to listen to some rational people talk about some hard shit. I have a puppy that’s having puppies today, and for the last five days, our house has just been strung out, and this morning I got up early to make eggs and cinnamon rolls and coffee and everything for all these women that are in the house for the pregnant dog. Not that the women part is important, sorry, but just my wife got up at 3:45 and freaked out on me and said some awful shit and she is so tired and just so strung out and I know that, I know it, and it doesn’t make it any fucking easier, and I need a moment to talk about it with somebody that is just not there and is not going to be affected, and it’s just like away from the situation and I don’t have a person I can call, so I called the hotline. Sorry, it’s not a question. Love you guys. Thanks.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t know. I don’t have anything to say other than I think it’s my favorite message we’ve ever gotten and it just means, it makes me so happy that Eli was just losing his shit and thought, “I will just call Amanda, Abby, and Glennon, and tell them about this.”
Amanda Doyle:
I love Eli so much.
Glennon Doyle:
Me too.
Amanda Doyle:
The ways I love Eli include the following. Let me count the ways. Eli has welcomed apparently many, many women into his house-
Glennon Doyle:
Doulas, dog doulas.
Amanda Doyle:
… to care for his pregnant puppy who is having puppies this very day. On the same day that his wife woke up and really freaked out on him and said some awful shit, he then woke up and made eggs and cinnamon rolls and coffee for said women. Also then, another favorite part, is when right after he said so many women in the house, he very quickly said, “Not that the women part, that’s not important.”
Glennon Doyle:
Anything wrong with that.
Amanda Doyle:
It wasn’t disparaging groups of women on your hotline.
Glennon Doyle:
I wish, you know what? Hearing this, I was like, “I have a glimpse of the other side that I never see.” First of all, Eli, please keep calling us because we need to know how your people feel because your people don’t tell us very much.
Amanda Doyle:
No, no.
Glennon Doyle:
And I, as a person who freaks out sometimes, I understand. It’s very hard and I’m really glad that you called and I really wish you’d keep calling and I feel like he/hims need more people to be able to call.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. I like how he said I needed somebody who would not be affected by this. It’s so big and huge to have. That’s why I love meeting so much. It’s like you can say anything, but it’s not all tangled up in your relationship where you don’t have to deal with people’s feelings about it or just like a steady presence that you can just say it to and that’s it. You just need somebody to hold it and not be do the family friend narcissism thing where you all, you think it’s about you and you try to fix it or you know?
Glennon Doyle:
I mean, I think it’s a little about me. Well, is it terrible that I, for real, my thought was like, “Do you think they need any extra homes for those puppies?”
Amanda Doyle:
Eli, call us back if there’s a way we could help in terms of taking your puppies.
Glennon Doyle:
Eli, Eli. Come on. There had to be a reason for this.
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, I just love, “She freaked out on me and said some awful shit because she’s just so tired and I know that, I know it, but it doesn’t make it any fucking easier.”
Glennon Doyle:
I know it. I know it.
Amanda Doyle:
We say amen to you Eli and to the rest of you pod squatters, we love you so much. We know it so hard and we know hearing it doesn’t make that shit any easier. We can do hard things, but it doesn’t make it any fucking easier.
Glennon Doyle:
We’ll see you next time. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you’d be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things, following the pod helps you because you’ll never miss an episode and it helps us because you’ll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on “Follow.” This is the most important thing for the pod. While you’re there, if you’d be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.