Are You A Cool or Warm Person + What Does That Mean?

September 5, 2024

Glennon Doyle:

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

Abby Wambach:

Hey everybody.

Glennon Doyle:

Hi, so-

Abby Wambach:

What are we doing?

Glennon Doyle:

Hi.

Abby Wambach:

What are we doing?

Glennon Doyle:

Hi.

Abby Wambach:

What are we doing?

Glennon Doyle:

Well, every time we try to lighten things up, it never works. But-

Amanda Doyle:

You guys are the worst.

Glennon Doyle:

We-

Amanda Doyle:

You two are the absolute worst.

Glennon Doyle:

We are the worst.

Abby Wambach:

I know.

Glennon Doyle:

We are the worst. But here’s the thing, I don’t know why I can’t be lighter. I think I’m funny. I’m a funny person.

Abby Wambach:

Yes.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah. So how come every time I start talking I end up talking about trauma and death? Like what-

Abby Wambach:

I know the problem is we’re… Okay, so Pod Squad, we’re trying to do some rapid fire Q&As, just right now.

Glennon Doyle:

To lighten it.

Abby Wambach:

Glennon’s going to say the question and we’ve just been sitting here looking at it, and she feels stumped because these questions aren’t meaningful.

Glennon Doyle:

Well, no, no, no. Okay, here’s-

Abby Wambach:

Really.

Glennon Doyle:

It’s because I’m making them too meaningful. Okay-

Abby Wambach:

That’s right.

Glennon Doyle:

… Pod Squad, the first question is, what are you binging or streaming on…

Abby Wambach:

Right now?

Glennon Doyle:

… The TV right now? Okay? So that seems like a simple question, except I don’t want to answer that because first of all, we’re actually watching a show that I don’t love right now. But I don’t want to say that, I don’t want to say I don’t love a show. I don’t want to…

Abby Wambach:

Hurt anybody’s feelings.

Glennon Doyle:

… Hurt anybody’s feelings. I don’t want to start beef with a bunch of actors I don’t even know, trying to do the best they can with the writing, who did the best they could.

Abby Wambach:

But also you have very, very, very high standards of which things we watch.

Glennon Doyle:

I have one wild and precious life.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah.

Glennon Doyle:

I’m not wasting it on bad art,

Abby Wambach:

But I also then reminded you of another show that you’re binging right now that you love, all capital letters.

Glennon Doyle:

I do. But even that show makes me nervous to say because everyone has so many opinions about everything, and I feel like when I reveal something that I like, it says something about who I am that makes me scared. But I’ll tell you that right now, I’m watching for the third time, all the way through, the show, Girls.

Abby Wambach:

People are allowed to have opinions.

Glennon Doyle:

I fucking love that show.

Abby Wambach:

I know.

Glennon Doyle:

I love watching Hannah Horvath, she’s one of my favorite characters of all time. I love-

Abby Wambach:

It’s so good.

Glennon Doyle:

… Jessa, and Marnie and Shoshana, and they are all a freaking mess and I love it.

Abby Wambach:

Okay, but can we just go back to the thing that you said right before the Girls?

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah.

Abby Wambach:

That whatever you say will be an indictment on who you are. Really? Yes, just step into fucking all of that. And if people have feelings on shit that you like, they can go right on and fuck all the way off.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay. Okay.

Abby Wambach:

For real. Because this is your life, you get to appreciate, and love and enjoy whatever you want.

Glennon Doyle:

Thank you, babe.

Abby Wambach:

I don’t understand. It makes me crazy thinking that you have to worry about what other people think.

Glennon Doyle:

I know, you are amazing at that, because you are a very embodied person, and I am working on that.

Abby Wambach:

You’re doing so good.

Glennon Doyle:

I am working on thinking through my life and what I want to do only from my own brain, and not looking at myself from trying, which is an impossible task, to look at myself through a million other eyes and brains, and shape-shift to become whatever it is I think other people will approve of.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah, love what you love.

Glennon Doyle:

This is the work of my life, and I’m doing it now. It is interesting to discover, to save one’s life, one needs to become embodied and think more about their own experience, than other people’s experiences of them. After that person has accidentally built an entire career on exposing themselves to other people and what other people will think of them. So it’s like suddenly becoming a vegan after you have created a meatpacking empire. Okay? I’m not saying it can’t be done, I will find a way to do it, but that’s how I’m experiencing my soul work right now, compared to my world work.

Abby Wambach:

That’s good

Glennon Doyle:

Is that they are sometimes really hard to do at the same time.

Abby Wambach:

Sister, what are you binging on streaming right now?

Amanda Doyle:

I was going to ask you if I could ask some rapid-fire questions.

Glennon Doyle:

Yes.

Amanda Doyle:

Just to keep this going.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay.

Abby Wambach:

Okay.

Amanda Doyle:

Abby, what color brings you the most joy?

Abby Wambach:

Green.

Amanda Doyle:

Glennon?

Glennon Doyle:

Blue.

Amanda Doyle:

Yellow for me. What’s your favorite place on earth, Abby

Abby Wambach:

The Thousand Islands in Canada.

Glennon Doyle:

My couch with my family, only particular members of my family.

Amanda Doyle:

I was like-

Glennon Doyle:

I just pictured it-

Amanda Doyle:

… golf.

Glennon Doyle:

I just pictured, it got a little crowded. Particular members of my family who will not be named,

Amanda Doyle:

I think Connecticut with my family in the summer.

Abby, we know you don’t have a tattoo and would never get one, but if you had to, what would it be?

Abby Wambach:

That’s the problem, why I never got a tattoo, is because I never could think of something I would want on my body forever.

Amanda Doyle:

Right. But if you had to have something on your body forever, what would it be?

Abby Wambach:

I thought of this when I was younger and I’m so glad that I decided not to, but I thought north, south, east, west, like the thing on-

Amanda Doyle:

Oh, a compass.

Abby Wambach:

… a compass.

Amanda Doyle:

Or that thing. Okay.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah. I mean that’s ridiculous. I’m so glad. I love myself.

Amanda Doyle:

Glennon, what do you value most in others?

Glennon Doyle:

Maybe softness.

Amanda Doyle:

Wow.

Abby Wambach:

I would not-

Amanda Doyle:

Abby, what-

Abby Wambach:

… have said that. I would not-

Amanda Doyle:

What would you-

Abby Wambach:

… have guessed that.

Amanda Doyle:

You wouldn’t have said that for her?

Glennon Doyle:

It could just be right now.

Abby Wambach:

I would not have guessed that.

Glennon Doyle:

I know it also annoys me, softness, so I don’t know, but I do-

Amanda Doyle:

You value it both negatively and positively.

Glennon Doyle:

It’s a push-pull. Honesty too. Soft honesty.

Abby Wambach:

For me, authenticity.

Glennon Doyle:

What does that mean to you?

Abby Wambach:

It means being who you are,

Glennon Doyle:

Not acting? Okay.

Amanda Doyle:

For me, it’s help.

Glennon Doyle:

Help.

Abby Wambach:

I get that.

Amanda Doyle:

I value people-

Glennon Doyle:

That’s funny.

Amanda Doyle:

… who can help me.

Glennon Doyle:

Cool.

Amanda Doyle:

What does cool mean to you, Abby?

Abby Wambach:

This is going to sound so basic, but people who are themselves are very, very cool.

Glennon Doyle:

I don’t like the word cool. I have bad feelings about the word cool. I feel like cool means detached, distant, acting like not vulnerable, separate, aloof. I’ve always wanted to be cool, but I have surrendered to being sweaty, and hot and warm.

Amanda Doyle:

Oh my god, that just reminded me. Okay, so Alice six months ago was talking, so she’s in fourth grade for the first time she’s noticing that there are cool kids and not cool kids, or cool kids and everyone else. I don’t think she thinks they’re not cool kids, I think she’s just seeing, “Oh, there’s some cool kids around here.” So she was talking to me and she seems totally detached from the whole thing, she’s just reporting it as fact and she’s like, “So there’s some cool kids.” And I’m like, “Awesome. Great.” And I said, “What does that mean and are you a cool kid?” And she goes, “No, no, no, I’m not cool. I am warm.”

Glennon Doyle:

Yes, Alice. Yes.

Amanda Doyle:

And I have never thought about warm being the opposite of cool.

Glennon Doyle:

Of course it is.

Amanda Doyle:

And that’s what it’s, right? Because warm is so vulnerable, you have to be open to people, and like, “Here I am, ready to receive you and be friends with you.” And not to disparage anyone cool, but by definition, they sure as shit can’t be warm.

Abby Wambach:

That’s right. That’s interesting. I’ve never thought of that.

Glennon Doyle:

Well, we have talked about it in our family because we spent a lot of time defining people, which is awful, by whether they were cool-cool, warm-cool, cool-warm or warm-warm, meaning this. No, do you remember this [inaudible 00:08:43]-

Amanda Doyle:

You mean people just around?

Glennon Doyle:

Yes.

Amanda Doyle:

Like friends?

Glennon Doyle:

And everyone in our family.

Abby Wambach:

Just vibes, what your-

Glennon Doyle:

Vibes.

Abby Wambach:

… vibes are.

Glennon Doyle:

So there are people who are cool on the outside but really warm on the inside. Those are people that you wouldn’t approach right away because you feel like they have an iron-

Abby Wambach:

They have a strong-

Glennon Doyle:

… exterior.

Abby Wambach:

… exterior.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah. But then you discover, when you get closer to them that their insides are just like gooey, and mushy and whatever. There are some people who act gooey, their outsides are warm, and then you get close and you’re like, “Fuck.” And I don’t know that it’s necessarily bad and good, I don’t think that’s true. It’s just a way of being.

Abby Wambach:

Preference.

Glennon Doyle:

And then there are people who are-

Abby Wambach:

Cold-cold.

Glennon Doyle:

Cold-cold.

Abby Wambach:

Cool-cool.

Glennon Doyle:

So do you remember what we decided everybody was, because this actually changes? What do you think you are?

Abby Wambach:

Warm-warm.

Glennon Doyle:

You think you’re warm-warm?

Abby Wambach:

Mm-hmm.

Glennon Doyle:

I think you’re cool-warm.

Amanda Doyle:

Abby’s cool-warm?

Abby Wambach:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda Doyle:

But-

Abby Wambach:

My exterior is stronger.

Amanda Doyle:

Well, I just think it’s impossible to say you’re not cool.

Glennon Doyle:

I don’t know anymore. I know what you’re saying, that her look is cool.

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah. But her energy is not cool.

Glennon Doyle:

Is not her energy is the most approachable thing in the world.

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah.

Glennon Doyle:

So I think her costume is cool, her wrapping paper, but her energy is warm, and then her insides are warm.

Abby Wambach:

What would you say you are?

Glennon Doyle:

I don’t know. I’m a great mystery to myself. What do you experience [inaudible 00:10:19]-

Abby Wambach:

If you could guess?

Glennon Doyle:

I don’t know.

Abby Wambach:

Just try.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay, my guess is that my mask, my acting self is warm-warm. Maybe my truest self is a little cooler, and then cool again. But not cool in… I have a lot of defenses. I think I have a lot of defenses. I think I’ve told the story on the podcast before, that I had a problem with another mom, early on in school our kids were struggling and I didn’t know that they were struggling, and she had known that they were struggling for a long time. And so when I found out, I said, “Why didn’t you tell me?”And she said, “Because you are unapproachable.”

Abby Wambach:

It’s such bullshit.

Glennon Doyle:

And that hurt my feelings so much. And I actually called Liz that night and was very upset. Because I don’t have a good grasp on how I’m perceived in the world, so that felt like such an indictment that I have been doing it all wrong. And I said to Liz, “She’s calling me unapproachable.” And then Liz said, “I don’t understand what the problem is. Do you want to be approached?” And I was like, “No.” And actually-

Abby Wambach:

Absolutely not.

Glennon Doyle:

… she’s probably right, when I would go to school with the kids, it reminds me of the story you told about Alice at the race, I wasn’t there to socialize. I didn’t want to do the social scene at school, I just didn’t. When I was there, I wanted to be there for my kid, I wanted to get credit from my kid for showing up, I wanted my kid to have all my attention, so that I would get all the mom… Really make it count. So I probably was sending out vibes that were like, “I’m here for one reason and not to chat.” I don’t know, what do you think?

Abby Wambach:

And so what did Liz say to you?

Glennon Doyle:

She said-

Abby Wambach:

She said, “Well done.”

Glennon Doyle:

“Good job.”

Abby Wambach:

Good job.

Glennon Doyle:

“You didn’t want to be approachable and you were told you were unapproachable. Well done.” So I don’t know.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah, I think that you outside of this house, are cool-cool.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay.

Abby Wambach:

And I think inside this house you are warm-warm.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay, that’s fine. That is how I want to be.

Amanda Doyle:

That is how you want to be. Good job.

Abby Wambach:

Yep.

Glennon Doyle:

What about you-

Amanda Doyle:

[inaudible 00:12:53] good.

Glennon Doyle:

What about you sissy? What do you think you are?

Amanda Doyle:

I think I’m warm-cool-warm.

Abby Wambach:

Really? That’s

Glennon Doyle:

Tell us more.

Abby Wambach:

That’s three layers.

Glennon Doyle:

I get it.

Amanda Doyle:

I know.

Glennon Doyle:

I mean, I get it.

Amanda Doyle:

That’s what I am.

Glennon Doyle:

I get it, but go ahead.

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah, I think I’m like, “Hey, I’m so warm, I’m so warm, I’m so warm.” And I want to be that, but then you get a little layered and I’m like, “Whoa, bucko, that’s a bridge too far. Take a one full step back.”

Glennon Doyle:

Exactly.

Amanda Doyle:

And then through that layer, in the inner sanctum, is warm again.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah-

Abby Wambach:

So you just got to ride it out for… To get into that inner sanctum of warm, you got to really trudge through that coolness.

Amanda Doyle:

You got to really ride through that stampede. And now a few get through.

Abby Wambach:

Has anybody?

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah.

Abby Wambach:

Except your children and John obviously?

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah-

Abby Wambach:

But we actually were talking-

Amanda Doyle:

… friends and-

Abby Wambach:

… about this yesterday. What was I saying? I asked you if you felt like you were good at-

Amanda Doyle:

Connecting with people.

Abby Wambach:

… connecting with people, deeply?

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah. I said I think when I want to connect with someone and I feel like they are a safe, interesting match, then I think I am good at it, but I don’t try to be good at it, as often as maybe other people do. I don’t want to do it all the time. It’s very tiring to me. And it’s important, it doesn’t feel like something that you should just be going around doing it all the time.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, it feels wise to be very selective about that.

Amanda Doyle:

Yes.

Glennon Doyle:

Speaking of boundaries-

Amanda Doyle:

It’s like, are you good at opening your front door? I am good at opening my front door when I have invited someone over.

Glennon Doyle:

Yes.

Amanda Doyle:

Right? When it’s deliberate and intentional and I feel safe and good about it, that’s when I open the door.

Glennon Doyle:

That’s very good. Do you want to hear from Anna?

Amanda Doyle:

I want to hear from Anna. That’s exactly what I woke up thinking this morning.

Anna:

Hello, my name is Anna. I wanted to call first to thank you for sharing your personal experiences, your stories bring these topics to life, in ways that help me look at my own path and see important patterns, I did not yet know how to name. I am several months into a burnout induced sabbatical, and thanks to you I can now say that I am in the desert and without my puzzles, so thank you.

My question is related to your episode on self-regulating and healing the relationships, which had me crying on the train, as I recognize so many things you described. I am curious to hear your thoughts on how to balance regulating oneself and establishing boundaries, two things that I understand are my responsibility. When is it reasonable to decide that I just don’t have the energy to maintain certain relationships? Again, thank you so much and I look forward to future episodes.

Amanda Doyle:

This is varsity level shit, because don’t you think it’s like once you get through the first level first of figuring your stuff out, then you’re at the second level, it’s that Anais quote, or how do you say the name of-

Glennon Doyle:

Anais Nin?

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah, Anais Nin, of, “You don’t see the world as it is, you see it as you are.” You don’t see people as they are. You see people as you are. So that is true. So you get to this place where you’re like, okay, she’s talking about her relationships, when does she decide if she doesn’t have the energy to maintain certain relationships? You can get into a real cyclical abyss, because if you’re like, “Okay, I’m in this relationship, I don’t like the energy of this relationship.” Then you start thinking, “Okay, but I am in this relationship, and I’m seeing this other person in this relationship and I’m seeing the entire relationship as I am. So is there a different thing that I could be bringing to this that would change this whole thing?” And you can get super into trying to do that, to the detriment of something else that is equally important, which is not denying the feelings of your body and the knowings of your body, that are saying no to this.

So when your body is saying no to this, is it saying no to this because of the way that you’re seeing this thing, which you need to be sure you can rely on? Or is it saying no to this because in fact no to this? So when she’s talking about regulating, that’s what I think, regulating, I am grounded in knowing that I am seeing this…

Glennon Doyle:

Clearly.

Amanda Doyle:

… Without the neuroses that I’m going to take into every next friendship. Because if you’re taking the next everything into every relationship that you’re in, which you are, then you want to make sure the person that’s showing up in that relationship, who is you, is seeing things with clarity, and-

Glennon Doyle:

That’s right.

Amanda Doyle:

… with health and with a regulated nervous system.

Abby Wambach:

I just have a-

Amanda Doyle:

Yes?

Abby Wambach:

… question because I feel a little confused by this. Only that, what is the relationship she’s trying to make between regulating oneself and establishing boundaries, do you think?

Amanda Doyle:

Oh, I get it, completely, because-

Abby Wambach:

Can you explain that?

Amanda Doyle:

All right, let’s take it to, what is regulating? We’re all just trying to feel better. We’re all just trying to feel a bit of peace, a bit of calm, a bit of joy.

Abby Wambach:

Is it like homeostasis?

Amanda Doyle:

Yes. Regulation to me, means there is a state of being that is not a trauma response.

Abby Wambach:

Okay.

Amanda Doyle:

Okay? I’m told.

Abby Wambach:

Apparently.

Amanda Doyle:

I believe it. I’ve had glimpses. Now-

Glennon Doyle:

There’s also several planets in the solar system.

Amanda Doyle:

That’s right.

Glennon Doyle:

Never seen them.

Amanda Doyle:

This thing exists, mermaids, unicorns and regulated nervous systems. There is a state of being that is more peaceful, more joyful, more loving. It’s clarity, it’s the dream. Okay? What I have learned is that when we don’t know how to do that for ourselves, we use other people. To me what she’s saying is, how do I know if I am creating boundaries based on my regulated real clear self? Or I’m just using these other people to regulate myself.

Abby Wambach:

Wow.

Amanda Doyle:

So for example, people pleasing. We all think… People actually claim people… I think that people claim being people pleasers, in a way that’s almost-

Abby Wambach:

[inaudible 00:20:38].

Glennon Doyle:

[inaudible 00:20:38] brag.

Amanda Doyle:

… valorous. I just like making people happy. But what people pleasing is at the end is it’s using other people, to get off, it is.

Abby Wambach:

To regulate, you mean?

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah, or to get the dopamine or to get the hit. Other people’s approval of me is a drug that I need, and so I am using you to get what I need and your approval of me-

Abby Wambach:

That’s right.

Amanda Doyle:

… to feed my addiction

Abby Wambach:

That rings-

Glennon Doyle:

Which is not actually what I need, but it’s the thing I think I need more than the thing I actually need. Yeah.

Amanda Doyle:

So it-

Abby Wambach:

And you’re using other people’s-

Amanda Doyle:

Exactly.

Abby Wambach:

… and the kindness of yourself, as a shield.

Amanda Doyle:

Yes. There’s no real connection in it, there’s no love, there’s no whatever. It’s actually like you might as well be-

Abby Wambach:

Sometimes.

Amanda Doyle:

… a bottle of pills.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah, sometimes, but-

Amanda Doyle:

Well, no, if it’s people pleasing, that’s what it is.

Abby Wambach:

I know, but I am a people pleaser and I’ve talked about this with my therapist a lot. I am for sure a people pleaser and then for sure I use it in a addictive way at times, but there’s also another part of me, that is really truly, the caretaking isn’t about me. And so I think both can be true at the same time.

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah. I guess for me, I would say that part of you that is so beautiful, that it wants to serve, that wants to care, that cares about community and other people, that’s separate for me than people pleasing. To me, people pleasing-

Glennon Doyle:

If it’s coming from a genuine place, then by definition is not people pleasing.

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah, it-

Glennon Doyle:

Because your end is not to people please, your end is to honor the part of you that values the serving.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah. It’s like confusing people pleasing with caretaking. They’re very close, they’re abutted next to each other.

Glennon Doyle:

Totally.

Amanda Doyle:

So when everyone’s talking about these days, the regulation of the nervous system, I think it can be tricky because we all want healing and wellness, to be this individual project, that we can do by ourselves in our house and be set. That is the lie of wellness, that we can just get a few tricks up our sleeve, get a few machines, get a diet or whatever. Shockingly, all these things cost money and people benefit from them, but that wellness is this individual purification process that we can do on our own, which of course whiteness is all tied up into, and power. And the fact that if we do it that way, that’s convenient for status quo because there is no collective liberation in that. We can achieve wellness and never talk to another human being, never leave our house, never enter the struggle of collective liberation in any way. Quite convenient, plus corporations can make all the money off of that version of wellness.

What I have found in my own life, which is all I can say, is that there is this weird symbiotic chicken and an egg situation here, that you cannot separate. That yes, there is work that I have to do in my own body, in my own breathing, in my own work in therapy, to get to a state where I can see people in things more clearly. So that I know, like with what Anna is saying, if I feel like I don’t have the energy to maintain certain relationships, is that because of the relationship? Is that because of the other person? Is that because of me? It doesn’t matter, signal that I have some work to do and some stuff to figure out. What I want to do every day, is every time I have a problem with another person, I want to go in, I want to work it out. I want to say all the words. I want to go, go, go, go, go. This has not worked well for me. This has stopped working for me.

What usually is the case for me lately is that, the problem might be the same, it might be the case that this relationship doesn’t work for me, it might be the case that they… But it keeps being, that if I resist the urge to say all the things right away, and instead sit with it, regulate myself, it usually becomes clear that it’s often not a conversation that I need to have, it’s just a little tweak in how I’m approaching that relationship. I don’t know how to explain it other than that, that it’s that my side of the street thing, back again and again and again. It’s the Al-Anon work. I mean that’s all of what that is, is what she’s saying, is it you? Is it me? Does it matter? That every time we get a signal that somebody else is fucking us up, it’s a signal that we have some work to do to become less fuckwithable.

Abby Wambach:

To give away our power so easily.

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah. It’s like that Al-Anon idea of, I got some stuff to work out with that person and it’s probably not with that person. It’s probably something that I have to work on internally or… So the bad-

Glennon Doyle:

Is that different than emotional divestment? Because what I hear, that everything you’re saying makes perfect sense to me. And, I also know that one of my struggles with intimacy is that once there is an issue, I’m a little squirrel that runs and gets the issue, and picks up the acorn and runs away, and stares at the acorn, and studies the acorn, and figures out what the issue is and whatever. And then it’s mine, I work it out with myself and potentially will come back and be like, present the acorn to the other person and be like, “Well, we have a situation, here’s what it is, I’m explaining it to you. Let me show you the acorn. That’s the thing.” Instead of working it out with the person, which allows it to be an actual live relationship, working, talking about the thing.

Amanda Doyle:

So both of us are avoiding vulnerability then.

Glennon Doyle:

Yes.

Amanda Doyle:

So just in opposite ways, you’re like, “I don’t want to be vulnerable with this person, in the moment, so I’m going to go and solve this shit and then come back to you.”

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah.

Amanda Doyle:

“Energetically, I will not involve you in solving this problem with you.”

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, I’m in a relationship with myself presenting to you the relationship.

Amanda Doyle:

Yes. And I’m coming in guns blazing saying… And by the way, the guns blazing could be just all love and concern. It’s not like I’m fighting, but I’m coming in like, “Let’s do this, let’s figure this out.” That is still avoiding vulnerability because there’s no moment of like, “Wait, I just feel a little uncomfortable and I’m trying to figure out what’s going on here. Do you feel like something’s going on here?”

It’s inviting someone into a journey you need to take together, in a vulnerable way. People can only do that if they are regulated themselves. Vulnerability, which everyone talks about all the time, has been construed to mean this thing where you just show up all bloody and gutsy, and say whatever the fuck you want, and brutal honesty and all of that. But I think to be truly vulnerable, you have to be so steady and centered in yourself. You have to enter a conversation and be strong enough to know that whatever happens in that conversation is not going to destroy you because you’ve got to.

Abby Wambach:

And that you don’t have control over what happens.

Amanda Doyle:

And you don’t have to have control.

Abby Wambach:

With sister specifically, I think she wants to gain control and understanding before going back and presenting her case, to whomever. You, when you go into a situation guns a blazing, you already have the outcome. You’ve already figured it out from the beginning to the end.

Amanda Doyle:

Right.

Glennon Doyle:

So do I. That’s the point of taking the acorn away and studying it, to come back and present.

Abby Wambach:

Exactly.

Glennon Doyle:

It’s the same thing.

Abby Wambach:

So I think underneath this vulnerability thing is this real fear of losing control.

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah. So Liz always says to me, “I want to talk about this thing and I have no cherished outcome.” I think there’s something to that. It’s like if you’re in struggle with somebody, then by definition you must admit that it’s not just about you, that somebody else gets to bring their full self, and their agenda and their whatever. And if you are both surrendered to the ending being something that you have not even thought of yet, because that’s the only possible outcome, if you’re both bringing two vulnerable different ideas, you are going to end up with something if you’re doing it right, that you couldn’t even dream of on your own. But it’s surrendering to a process, and to me that’s what embodiment is. It’s like something happens and being like, “Okay, wait, can we just slow this down, because I feel like energetically something’s weird, and I feel uncomfortable and can we just talk about it?”

It’s so in the moment, which I am starting to be able to do, and what I would say is that it’s some kind of fucking magic trick. It is some kind of effing magic trick. And Alex, my dear friend Alex Hedison has been trying to tell me about this magic trick forever, she’s been trying to teach me what vulnerability actually is. And it is not just showing up and saying all of your sad feelings, it’s an in-body experience of, I am available for whatever you need to bring to me. I can handle it. We can figure this out moment to moment-

Abby Wambach:

And also I’m going to deliver moment to moment, in real time, what’s happening inside of me.

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah.

Amanda Doyle:

But the point for Anna for me, is there’s no answer to, do I get my shit together and then establish my boundaries? Or do I establish my boundaries so I can get my shit together? There’s no clear that, it’s like pain happens in relationship, brokenness happens in relationship, so healing tragically must happen also in relationship. But there’s this individual work that we can do, that makes us strong enough and centered enough to enter into these relational conflicts in a new fresh way, that result in new fresh results.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah.

Glennon Doyle:

And maybe it’s one of the clues that you are doing both of those, because she said, “Which I understand are my responsibility. Both of those things are my responsibility.” The regulating, getting balanced in her regulation of herself and establishing boundaries. And so maybe the way to know that you are taking responsibility for that, both of those things in the relationship, is if you are not… When you’re really honest with yourself, you are not going to the other person saying, “Save me, save me, save me.” Whether that’s like, “I’m really upset, we need to talk about this now.” Because then you’re using that other person to make yourself unupset.

Amanda Doyle:

That’s right. That’s right.

Glennon Doyle:

Or, “You have to talk to me right now because I know I’m feeling off, and the only thing that’s going to help me not feel off is to speak with you about it.” That by definition, you’re not doing your responsibility. And the reverse, if someone is coming to you with that frantic, panicked energy of using you to bring themselves down to a regulated place, then they’re not taking their responsibility either.

Amanda Doyle:

It’s just a bunch of people using each other to regulate themselves, and that is what we must not do, if we want to have a real relationship. I just want to give you a quick example, in my real life of something I noticed that… It’s a simple example of this, so our youngest plays soccer and I get anxious about her on the field because she is now playing against all these big people, and anyway, this stuff happens and she falls and sometimes they’re faking it in soccer. It’s just a lot to understand as a mama on the sidelines, and when I’m supposed to be upset, sometimes she’s actually calling for help from the field, but really it’s just this… I don’t even know what it is, but I don’t know when I’m supposed to be upset, when I’m supposed to be worried, and my nervous system doesn’t know for sure. “Look after her, look after her, don’t look after her, don’t look after her.” It’s the credit card machine again.

So we were sitting at the table and we were talking about out the fact that when Abby used to get hurt on the field, she would have a little signal to her mom, which she’d sneak it at the bottom, she’d be laying down on the field acting like she was about to die. But then she’d put up her thumb a little bit so her mom could see this secret thumb thing that was like, “It’s okay mom, I’m cool.” And-

Abby Wambach:

That I’m not hurt, I’m just laying here for extra long, A, to catch my breath and B, maybe gain some favor with the referee. Maybe this is a foul, maybe they’ll give that other player a yellow card or something. It’s all gamesmanship stuff that happens in the soccer field.

Amanda Doyle:

So gamesmanship means lying-

Abby Wambach:

No, it’s not-

Amanda Doyle:

… is what I have learned.

Abby Wambach:

… it’s just like playing-

Glennon Doyle:

It’s pursuing your highest… What is it? Pursuing your highest advantage.

Amanda Doyle:

Okay.

Abby Wambach:

Yes.

Amanda Doyle:

All right, so lying. So I was saying to Emma, I’ve caught myself saying, “So maybe let’s have a signal for me.” And then I realized Amanda’s job on the soccer field is to play the best game soccer she can, with her full self. Amanda’s job is not, nor has it ever been, to regulate her mother’s nervous system, that is my work. This is a very simple example, of me, I was using my daughter, “In the middle of your thing, can you also add this other thing that will help my nervous system calm down?” That is not her work. Right? When parents cannot regulate, do not know how to regulate, do not know all the things that they need to do, which by the way, it is not just breathing and doing your vagal nerve shit, which you should do and help.

Abby Wambach:

Vegas.

Amanda Doyle:

Whatever it is, your vagus nerve. Is that what it is? It feels not right because like Vegas.

Glennon Doyle:

I feel like it’s vagal, vegal.

Amanda Doyle:

But it’s V-A-G-U-S.

Glennon Doyle:

Vagus? Vegus?

Amanda Doyle:

I think it’s-

Abby Wambach:

Vagus nerve.

Amanda Doyle:

Okay.

Abby Wambach:

But maybe I’m wrong, could be vagal, I guess.

Amanda Doyle:

The point being, it’s also about knowing yourself. It’s also about the self-

Glennon Doyle:

Vagus. F-A-G-U-S.

Amanda Doyle:

Okay, vagus. What happens in the vagus nerve…

Abby Wambach:

Stays in the vagus nerve-

Amanda Doyle:

… affects everybody. Okay?

Glennon Doyle:

What happens in the vagus nerve, stays in the vagus nerve.

Amanda Doyle:

It’s about a lot of things. It’s about doing your work, knowing yourself, knowing when you’re putting your shit on other people, et cetera, et cetera. But the point is that it gets dangerous to create a life when we are using other human beings to regulate our nervous systems. And it is parents’ job to do what they need to do to take care of their own nervous systems and reactions, so that they are not using their children to make them less anxious, less angry, less whatever. That feels like the first thing we should be taught as parents, right? It should be the first thing we’re taught as parents, that it is not those children’s responsibility to make you feel better. Let’s hear from Brandy.

Brandy:

Hi, my name is Brandy and my maybe question/comment, regarding the recent podcast regarding busyness, and I relate a lot to Amanda and how she’s worked through this. And I think there was brought up the idea of what are we also afraid of, but I didn’t hear discussed, and I guess for me it’s such a motivating factor for the busyness and productivity, is the FOMO, the fear of missing out, of not really sucking the marrow out of your life. And also I work in the Hospice and Palliative medicine field, and with people at end of life, and it’s a beautiful job and it has left me with some fears of not living my life fully. And I think there’s also this piece of how do we incorporate rest, relaxation, enjoyment and fulfillment, as opposed to just those big life events that we hear about at end of life? So I’d love to hear that discussed or hear your thoughts on that. Thank you so much for all you do. Bye.

Amanda Doyle:

I love this. Do you think what Brandy is saying is on one side of things, we want to live the biggest life we can with the most rich experiences and we want to go for what’s the biggest, most adventuresome life, so we won’t have regrets, and how do we incorporate the idea of rest and relaxation, as something that is not at the detriment of having a big life, but is part of it?

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, I guess it’s just like there’s a lot of pre-framing, even in that question. It’s like, what does a big life mean and who has taught us that? And why is rest, relaxation, joy and pleasure, something that is in contrast to whatever that big life is? It makes me suspicious that what we have been sold is a big life, a big important life, has to do with climbing a ladder, being visible, being famous, being well-known, being important, and then that feels suspicious to me because that’s exactly the story I would tell, if I were trying to create a capitalistic culture, that if I show you the big prize is this thing, then you will think that’s what a big life is. It’s just funny that that is the goal, if we don’t think it through intentionally, then we just soak up the culture’s idea, and so of course we would think that.

It’s really confusing when you start to be meeting all of those people and you realize that, I would say that, this is maybe controversial, I don’t know, but Abby and I talk a lot about how sometimes it feels to me like the more outwardly successful a person is, the less happy they are. And I really have experienced that-

Abby Wambach:

In some ways, yeah, for sure.

Glennon Doyle:

… over, and over and over again. Is it because what actually constitutes a big life, meaning joyful satisfaction, I guess, contentedness-

Abby Wambach:

Contentedness.

Glennon Doyle:

… we’re told and over again by anyone who studies it, that it’s not this thing we think it is, that it’s relationships, it’s rest, it’s relaxation, it’s the joy in the little things, it’s whatever. That perhaps if we switched them, if we made the big part of our life, these other things, the little things, the relationships, the enoughness, the walks with our dogs, the things that we can actually remember bringing us joy, that maybe… I mean truly that’s what I have the biggest FOMO about.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah, for sure.

Amanda Doyle:

That is the only FOMO I have is, in trying to get this other thing that was never actually going to make me happy, did I miss the thing that was right in front of my face? Which is what everyone who’s ever studied joy or happiness tries to tell us, right? That it’s not the mountaintop moments that we’re told, it’s the every day delicious, accessible-

Abby Wambach:

Yeah. I also just think that it depends on how you’re framing it. To me, when you make me a coffee and you hand it to me in the morning, that feels like a mountaintop moment for me. And it’s bringing into focus and appreciation of the stuff that actually matters to you. And I think that what Brandy is trying to talk about too is through the lens of the end of life in mind, and I think that it’s easy to get busy when life is busy and things are happening, but trying to define what are the things that are the most important, that bring you the most fulfillment and contentment. For me, it gives me such a rush to cross off something off of my bucket list, every year to do, whether it’s travel to, I don’t know where, with my family or do some sort of challenge, I don’t know. To me, even though it feels like I’m being sold a bill of goods, I do like accomplishing things so that when I do get to the end of my life, I will be able to say I had both. I don’t think that it’s wrong to be in search of…

Amanda Doyle:

Adventure.

Abby Wambach:

… Adventure.

Amanda Doyle:

It’s just knowing yourself.

Glennon Doyle:

I think the dichotomy here is Brandy, which makes total sense in terms of our conditioning, she’s like, “Do I suck the marrow out of life and have the greatest experiences? Or do I allow myself to rest and where can I find the balance?” And it’s like, “No, you suck the marrow out of life. Done. The question is, what is the marrow of life to you?”

Amanda Doyle:

That’s right.

Abby Wambach:

Yes.

Amanda Doyle:

That’s right.

Glennon Doyle:

And no one wants you to compromise on sucking the marrow out of the life, but sucking the marrow out of life can look like spending most of your time on the beach with a book by yourself, or it can look like being in conversation with your kids, or it can look like bungee jumping off of every bridge in the universe. What is your marrow? And that is why it’s not easy. I used to have the Hunter Thompson quote where he says, ‘Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, in a cloud of smoke thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming, wow, what a ride.’

Abby Wambach:

Yes.

Amanda Doyle:

Written like a true drug addict trying to justify their-

Glennon Doyle:

But I used to think… And I was like, yes, “That is correct. That is correct.” Then I was like, “Do I have to dispose of that way of thinking because I’m not trying to sprint up the mountains?” No, what about sucking the marrow out of life? What is relationship, other than being thoroughly used up, totally worn out-

Amanda Doyle:

Amen.

Glennon Doyle:

… and saying, “Wow, what a ride.”? It’s not either or. That is about the marrow, and we just have a very narrow branding of what is adventure and what is the marrow of life. I don’t think we have to accept that, I think we can be pretty banged up, and used up, and thrilled and having really fulfilled our adventure, in a lot of different paths of life.

Abby Wambach:

It’s good.

Amanda Doyle:

Amen.

Glennon Doyle:

What is your marrow that-

Amanda Doyle:

[inaudible 00:46:17].

Glennon Doyle:

Is so good? Yes, we all agree. Emerson Thoreau, I think it was Thoreau. We should suck the marrow. If we don’t think hard, and maybe it’s not even thinking, if we don’t notice what actually brings us joy, then we will default to what the culture tells us will. The culture will tell us the marrow is achieve, achieve, achieve, climb, climb, climb, be visible, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, hustle. But what I suspect is that when most of us actually notice what brings us joy, it won’t be that. It might be for some, but I… In a similar vein, and we’ve mentioned this before, I think of it every day, what is your marrow? Is very similar to what we say over and over again to people, the Mary Oliver quote, ‘What is it that you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?’ And that is used to make people feel shame that they aren’t doing enough with their life. But what Jessica Kantrowitz wrote a poem about, and I think about all the time, is that actually, if you read that full poem, what Mary Oliver was saying is, because I only have this one wild, precious life, I will sit on this grass all afternoon and watch this one grasshopper eat this blade of grass.

Amanda Doyle:

Yes.

Glennon Doyle:

Because I have only one wild and precious life.

Amanda Doyle:

Because I’m so determined to suck the marrow out of life, I will sit here and watch this fucking miracle, that no one is taking the time to watch.

Glennon Doyle:

And because her personally, when you read her work over and over again, you understand that what brought her… What her marrow was was being alone in nature, and then working things out with her partner, which is relating the two, solitude nature, my partner, like art. So her marrow, because I have only one wild, precious life, I will do what looks to the world like nothing, because life is too important to do something different than nothing.

Abby Wambach:

I think we’ve got a really good idea for another tripod podcast and to really think about and discuss what is our own individual marrow.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, I think that’s the work of life, and it comes back to embodiment. If you’re not in your body and you don’t know what brings you joy, how the fuck can you figure out what your marrow is?

Abby Wambach:

Could you off the top of your head, ring off five things that are in your marrow?

Glennon Doyle:

Yes. I’ve talked to my therapist about this so much because I have this idea in my mind, that I am supposed to want, and go to and do these thing, that look like fancy, that look like achievement, that look like making it out in the world. And what I try to explain to her is, there’s a part of me that is hungry for that, so when I see it, I’m like, “Oh God, I should be doing that. I should go to that freaking awards. I should go to that banquet. I should be in that room. I should want that show. I should whatever.” And I’m hungry for something there, I think. And then if I go, it’s like I sit down and notice that all of the food being served is like that plastic food, that they show on advertisements.

It’s like I’m hungry for something, but whatever it is, is not there. It’s a version of it that makes us… For me, maybe it feeds some other people, maybe it really does, and I’m not judging that life in general. What is true for me, even if I should want those things, even if I’m lucky to be there, even if other people would want those things, is that I am happier just in my house, on my couch, any day of the week. The things that are supposed to be big, big joys, never bring me as much joy as the things that are little, little joys, and that is just the truth of things. But there’s still that moment where I have to say, “No thank you, I just would rather be on my couch.” I’ve learned I don’t have to say that second part. And then giving up a thing that other people are supposed to want, is what Brandy is saying, because she’s saying, how do you deal with the fear of missing out? And I still have that FOMO, but what I remind myself is, what I’m missing out on is something that maybe feeds other people but doesn’t feed me. So I’m more scared of missing out on the thing that I know that feeds me, even if it looks weird to other people.

Abby Wambach:

Amazing. I’m impressed by all of you, just so the Pod Squad knows, when we go into these Q&As, we have like five, sometimes six Q’s that the Pod Squad has sent in. We only ever get to two, only ever, and I just think you guys are very good talkers.

Amanda Doyle:

Oh, babe, I think you’re-

Glennon Doyle:

[inaudible 00:51:36], Abby.

Amanda Doyle:

… a very good talker.

Abby Wambach:

I don’t know. I don’t know about all the shoulds of the world, but I just am so grateful to be able to do this with you all.

Amanda Doyle:

Samesies. Samsesies.

Pod Squad, thank you for creating a place where we can stay on our couch, and still be connected with you and share our low so many thoughts. We love you. We’ll see you back here next time. Bye.

Abby Wambach:

Bye.

Amanda Doyle:

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us, if you’d be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to, We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you’ll never miss an episode and it helps us because you’ll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner, or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you’re there, if you’d be willing to give us a five star rating and review, and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.

We Can Do Hard Things, is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle. In partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Weiss-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LoGrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.