How to Heal Unhealthy Relationship Patterns + Glennon & Abby On Marriage
August 15, 2024
Abby Wambach:
Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Glennon just gave me the mic to start this podcast, and I’m so excited. We’re going to do a little Q and A with you folks today. How you doing, Glennon?
Glennon Doyle:
I’m good. I really like these episodes, because I really like to hear from the Pod Squad, and it makes me… I don’t know. It just makes me feel like we’re not just talking into an abyss. So, you know what it makes me feel like?
Abby Wambach:
What?
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. You know that my best truest self is a third grade teacher.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Okay. So, I started my professional life-
Abby Wambach:
I mean, I don’t agree with you, but I know that that’s what you think.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, okay. I feel most in my own skin, in my own zone, in my own best of everything when I’m on the floor with a circle of third-graders.
Abby Wambach:
I can’t believe that that could be true.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, you didn’t know me when I was a teacher.
Abby Wambach:
No, I know, but that would be my worst nightmare. Keep going.
Glennon Doyle:
And honestly, anywhere from kindergarten to third grade. I taught preschool for a long time, and I freaking love preschoolers, but I need everybody to concentrate for a little longer.
Abby Wambach:
And only third-graders can do that?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, first and second, too, and even kindergarten. It’s just, preschoolers, I just remember, I would spend hours each night, creating these activities, and then it would take me two hours to make the activity, and then I would put the thing down on their tables, and turn around, and they’d be like, “Done.” I can’t do that. And I also need everybody to be able to read quietly. I need, for my own mental health, to be able to be like, “DEAR time. Drop Everything And Read. Ms. Doyle needs a minute.”
Abby Wambach:
Drop Everything And Read.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, DEAR time. Or some people call it SSR, Sustained Silent Reading time. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
DEAR time’s better.
Glennon Doyle:
DEAR time’s better. Drop Everything And Read. So, the point is that, my favorite part of the day when I was teaching was called morning meeting.
MUSIC:
It’s morning meeting time.
It’s morning meeting time.
It’s time to share, show we care.
It’s morning meeting time.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay-
Abby Wambach:
What did you share?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, it felt like the time of day where the kids could… I mean, in my classroom, it actually was a very intimate time. It was like where the kiddos could talk about what had gone on the night before or the morning of or what’s happening in their hearts, before we got to the business of learning. And it was just my favorite time of day, and it felt like, wow, how important to make sure that we get a pulse on everybody’s hearts, bodies, minds before we go into whatever the hieroglyphics or whatever the hell we were studying that day. It just felt like that was the most important time, the morning meeting time. And we’d always do an activity and… I loved it.
Okay. So, the point is, that I feel like when we do these Q and A’s, that it’s kind of like morning meeting time. It’s like our circle time. We’re circling up, we’re talking about our feelings. This is the best time of day for me.
So, this morning, I would like to call on Bailey. Bailey, what would you like to share with us today?
Bailey:
Hi, my name is Bailey. My question is, about three years ago, I came out to myself, but I haven’t really given myself that many opportunities to date women. And so, the few times that I do, which I’m in right now, it’s a lot of like, I might not even be that interested in them, we’ve only been talking for two weeks, but as soon as they start showing a lack of interest in me, it’s like a 180, and I can’t stop thinking about them. And I’m like, “Why haven’t they messaged me back? Why did they post on their story and not text me?” And it’s a mess, and I don’t even know why, because yeah, I might not even be that interested in them, but as soon as that takes a turn, it’s really, I don’t know, frustrating. And I don’t want to act like that, but I don’t know how to stop it. So, if you have any suggestions, that would be much appreciated. Thank you.
Abby Wambach:
Ooh, I love this one.
Glennon Doyle:
Bailey, first of all, congratulations. Coming out to yourself is a really big deal. Well done. I’ll tell you what my thoughts are about this.
Abby Wambach:
Can’t wait.
Glennon Doyle:
And because I am not a therapist and have no qualifications, at all, I am only going to respond to this based on my own experience with my own self. Okay?
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
Sweet Bailey, this is what I have learned about when we do things we don’t want to do. So, whenever anyone says to me, “Why am I doing this thing that I don’t want to do?” or “I keep doing this thing and it’s not aligned with who I am.” Whenever someone says to me, or I say to myself, I appear to be acting in a way that I don’t understand and I don’t want to act, that is the sign to me that this is an old pattern. So, you know how the only things we can do, disembodied, are things that we’ve done a million times, and our body is so used to, that we go into autopilot. Like, when you’re driving to a place that you’re so familiar to you, and then you wake up, and you’re like, “Oh my God, I was driving this whole time?” Does that happen to you?
Abby Wambach:
I mean, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Or like, you’re washing your face and you’ve done it so many times that you just aren’t even present, and you come to, and you’re like, “Oh, I was somewhere else.” When we’re doing a new thing, we don’t do that. When we’re doing a thing that is based on an old pattern, that we’re on autopilot, that we have not made intentional decisions to do, those are the moments we’re completely disembodied and out of control and we don’t know why we’re doing it.
So, Bailey is saying, “I know better. There’s a version of me now that knows that I don’t want to be chasing people who are disinterested in me. So, why am I doing it on autopilot?” That’s the moment. I feel like that is the most exciting thing in the world to me right now, with my last year of therapy, et cetera, et cetera, is figuring out those moments where I went into autopilot, I disassociated, and then came to. [inaudible 00:07:04] what that says about something an old belief that I could change. So, I wonder with Bailey, when is the first time she learned that when somebody shows disinterest, it is her role to chase the interest?
So, I think we would say, when’s the first time you did that? Do you remember this feeling, early on? Right? Do you remember the feeling of you perceiving someone else as disinterested? And that being the signal to your body and your mind and your heart that you have to chase and prove your worthiness to that person, as opposed to… And by the way, I freaking get that. I think everybody gets that. I think many of us have the inner signal of, if someone’s disinterested in me, that must prove that I’m not worthy. And so, I have to pursue, pursue, pursue, pursue, so I can prove to that person that I am worthy. So, the question is not even, do I like that person? That doesn’t matter. The question is, does that person like me?
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
So then, you pursue and pursue, and then what happens if that person ends up liking you with your pursuit? You’re screwed, anyway, because you don’t even know if you like them.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, it’s like outsourcing. I mean, how many of us have asked our friend, growing up, “Do you think so-and-so is cute?” Because you’re trying to figure out if you really think they’re cute, and so you outsource that information. It feels like Bailey is outsourcing the need to understand what the attraction is, because I don’t think it’s attached to the person. It sounds to me that it’s attached to the chase or the drama. When I was younger, this was my jam. This thing feels very familiar to me. I love the chase. Because also, then, it becomes a challenge, like, “Oh, you’re disinterested in me. Okay.”
Glennon Doyle:
“I can win this one.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, you just put it into the next gear, like charm it up, do my little thing.
Glennon Doyle:
I could see that. It feels to me like, what we learned as kids becomes the hard drive of ourselves. The hard drive… You can correct me if I’m wrong. That’s the place of the computer that holds all the codes that is telling the screen and the printer and all the things what to do. It’s telling the things what to do, the hard drive. Okay?
Abby Wambach:
Well, the hard drive is the mechanisms, the mechanics, the technology.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Well, what’s the part that has all the codes?
Abby Wambach:
Software.
Glennon Doyle:
Great, software. It’s software.
Abby Wambach:
It’s an old, non-updated software.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. So, Bailey, when you are doing something that does not align with what you know and your values, it’s because there’s an old code in the software that you haven’t done the work to update yet, right? Because the software is just sending its messages, and we’re looking at the shit that comes out of the printer, and we’re like, “What? Why is this this way? Why am I doing this? Why is this the result of my life?”
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
And then, we cross it out on the paper.
Abby Wambach:
White out.
Glennon Doyle:
We try to make it. But no, it’s always going to be the same until we change-
Abby Wambach:
The software.
Glennon Doyle:
The software. So, for me, that looks like Bailey. Well, I have a million examples. Here’s just one. How come I can’t effing relax? How come, no matter how much I produce, no matter how much work, if I sit on a couch for longer than two hours or an hour, or I sit down in the middle of the day, I feel uncomfortable, I feel unworthy, I feel wasteful, because there is still a code in my hard drive that was put there when I was little, that you can rest when you’re dead. That hustle is your worthiness. That resting is laziness. And that is a code that is hard to change.
So, what I do, and the beautiful thing about embodiment, and I really feel like this has to do with embodiment, Bailey, because in order to abandon our new beliefs, we have to go offline.
Abby Wambach:
Wait, hold on.
Glennon Doyle:
We have to not stay in our bodies.
Abby Wambach:
In order to abandon our old beliefs?
Glennon Doyle:
I believe that, Bailey, she would not be asking this question if she really didn’t believe she should be or wanted to be pursuing people who were disinterested in her. She wouldn’t have a problem. People who are in their old beliefs, completely, don’t have a problem. They’re not like-
Abby Wambach:
Okay. So, you’re saying that her understanding, this is a new belief system she has?
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like she’s moving towards a new belief system.
Abby Wambach:
Got it.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like there’s this awkward time where it’s an in-between time. If Bailey were still completely in her old software, she would not even be questioning this desire of hers, she would not be questioning her behavior, she would not still be looking at the printer paper, going, “Why am I doing this thing?” The discrepancy, the discomfort is proof of growth.
Abby Wambach:
In the middle. You’re in the middle.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s in the middle.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s the best place. It’s like Bailey’s getting ready for her actual software to change.
Abby Wambach:
The update is coming.
Glennon Doyle:
The update is coming.
Abby Wambach:
It’s updating. It’s like that little line when you’re updating the thing. It’s close.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Yes. Just wait it out. Keep doing some work.
Glennon Doyle:
But you can’t wait it out in your brain. You have to stay embodied because… Okay, I’m only saying this for my own experience, so I don’t know if it’s right. But when I’m trying to change a pattern with the eating disorder stuff, I’d be like, “Wait, I’d come to. I’d come to and I’m in the bathroom throwing up. I’d come to and I’m eating a whole pie, whatever.” And I kept thinking, “Why am I always coming to? Where am I going? Where do I go?”
There is a moment when you’re in a situation and you feel uncomfortable, that you can either stay in your body and deal with that discomfort in a new fresh way, with a new programming, or you can deal with that discomfort by going offline, by dissociating, by abandoning yourself. And then, you come to and you’re in the bathroom throwing up, or you come to and you’re pursuing that person who is disinterested in you, or you come to and you’re drinking again, or you come to and you have abandoned your new software, and the old one kicks in while you’re disembodied. Does that make sense?
Abby Wambach:
Total sense.
Glennon Doyle:
So, for me, when I am in an uncomfortable situation, when I am with people who I feel triggered by, I have a moment where I get to stay and use my agency, and try to implement my new belief system, and sit with all the discomfort of that. And that is how the software changes.
So, Bailey, what that would look like for you, perhaps, is, you have the moment, okay, where you’ve gone on a date, this woman is showing a lack of interest in you. There is a moment where you decide whether to dissociate and go into your old pattern, so you say to yourself, “She’s not interested. My job is to make her interested. My worthiness is based on whether she’s interested. I have to pursue this. I’m uncomfortable. I’m going.” And you come to, and days later, and you’re embarrassed, you’re lost again, you’re whatever. Or you go on that date, next day, she shows a lack of interest. You stay with it. You stay in your uncomfortable body that feels unworthy, that feels like no one’s going to love you, that feels like, “What’s wrong with me?”, and you make that about you and yourself. Okay? You just sit with it and see what happens. You decide what you’re going to tell yourself instead. So, it’s like making a ship move two inches to the right.
Abby Wambach:
It’s hard.
Glennon Doyle:
It seems like it should be so simple, it’s the hardest thing in the entire world.
Abby Wambach:
It’s like moving train tracks.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
When the train tracks move and you’re right in the middle, you just need to get it to clink over. And don’t feel bad if you aren’t aware or you don’t see what’s happening until you wake up, until you’re halfway down or you’re two weeks into pursuing this person. One of the most difficult things that I have learned in my life is to become aware of my unconscious behaviors. And before that, my unconscious thoughts that lead to my behaviors. It is the most difficult thing. I’m working a lot on recognizing when I’m dysregulated. And often, I think that that’s kind of what we’re talking about. When complex emotions rise and then I start acting based on those complex emotions, I think that that’s what we’re talking about here-
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
… is to recognize when we are not online and when the tracks have shifted back to the old software that’s not updated.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And then, you look at what the software is telling you, the old software, like, “I’m only worthy if another person’s interested in me.” You think of what you’re telling yourself or what that code must be to make you pursue this person, and you think, “What do I want to replace it with?” Because you have to replace it, right?
If I were Bailey, I would think, “Okay. Every time I feel that fear, and I want to reach out, chase that person who’s disinterested, and I want her reaction to prove that I’m worthy.” I think I would try to change it to, “Okay. Every time I feel that disinterest, that terror, I want to prove to myself that I am worthy.”
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
I want to pursue myself.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
I want to give to myself what I think that person needs to give me, to make me whole. I think, if I were Bailey, I would love myself so much through that change of software, that I would pay attention to every time I felt that terror, that desire to pursue, and I would use all of that energy to pursue myself. I would say, “What do I need today? How do I take amazing care of myself today? How do I love the shit out of myself today?”
And the amazing thing is, over time, you realize that all of those old behaviors are gifts, because they show you all the places where you need to heal, and make yourself whole and love yourself. And then, Bailey, over time, you learn how to love yourself so well and become so whole that when the right person comes, you are fucking ready.
Abby Wambach:
It’s really good.
Glennon Doyle:
To choose and not need. To choose as a whole person, who can meet her own needs, and who knows that disinterest from another human being is not a signal for you to pursue, but it’s a signal for you to retreat into yourself. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
I think that that’s really good.
Glennon Doyle:
I just love Bailey.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, Bailey. And also, it’s hard, Bailey, but you got this.
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s hear in circle time from Jacqueline, and what she would like to share today.
Jacqueline:
Oh, my goodness. I just love you all so much. My name is Jacqueline, and my question is about marriage. I’m halfway through your Boundaries podcast, the latest one, and you were discussing boundaries for married people. And I grew up pretty alternatively. I’ve kind of, for many reasons, I think been conditioned to be pretty skeptical about the institution of marriage, to say the least.
As a feminist, it feels a little bit against some things that I believe in. So, Abby and Glennon, I’m just wondering what made you decide you wanted to get married? What made you want to be a wife, Glennon? How much of it had to do with your faith? How much of it was just sheer practicality, finances and such? Or just having the status of being married and have the world take your relationship a little bit more seriously?
So, these are all questions that have been circulating in my mind. I feel like it’s something that I may want in the future, but that’s also confusing to me because it seems to go against a lot of my core values. So, I would love your opinion on that. Thank you so much for everything that you do. Words cannot describe how much my life has been changed by all free of your work, really. Thank you. Thank you. I love you. Bye.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m just going to tell you, babe, that this question from Jacqueline got me thinking. I’m thinking. I love this question. I want to explore it with you.
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you remember how utterly obsessed we were with getting married as soon as humanly possible?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
I felt like I was adrift at sea until we got married. I felt like my life depended on us needing to be married.
Glennon Doyle:
And why do you think that was?
Abby Wambach:
I think that I have some insecurity issues and I wanted to be legally tethered to you, even though I know that that can be unwound because both of us have been through divorce. But I will be honest. This is maybe not the proudest thing I could ever say. I wanted you to have a legal ownership over me, and I wanted to have a legal ownership over you. That is how desperate I was. I wanted to show the most serious, the most highest form of attachment to somebody.
Glennon Doyle:
I hear you. That is all true of what we wanted. We did feel that way.
Abby Wambach:
And I do think, now, there’s a lot of perks: finances, legal taxes, all that stuff.
Glennon Doyle:
Respect.
Abby Wambach:
Respect in the world.
Glennon Doyle:
Respect in the world.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
For queer people. It’s so interesting, though, because we know that it’s not necessarily the highest form of love. Or it can be, but it can certainly not be. I don’t have answers to this one. I just think it’s so interesting to think about why we’re so desperately… As to feminists, as to people who aren’t really super trusting of institutions, that’s not usually our jam. It is interesting that we were so desperate to get married. We did feel a huge sense of relief after. It was like, relief.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. And I also think because there were three children also involved, that I wanted them to clearly see the seriousness of our marriage.
Glennon Doyle:
You wanted them to just really feel that you weren’t going anywhere.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right. I wanted them to know in their bones that I wasn’t just in this for dating you, I wanted to do the real deal. My question is, now that all the most intense love hormones have worn away, in some ways, and we are settled into this really deep grounded love, do you feel embarrassed by this desperate need to have been married to me?
Glennon Doyle:
No. I don’t feel embarrassed at all. I feel just curious about it. Jacqueline really has me thinking.
Abby Wambach:
What are you thinking over there?
Glennon Doyle:
No. I wonder whether we thought that other people wouldn’t respect our relationship or whether we thought it was going to be taken away from us, somehow. I just think there’s something deep, and maybe that exists more with queer couples than other ones, where it’s like something that you have not been allowed to have, that you have been deprived of, forever.
Abby Wambach:
That doesn’t ring true to me.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like a hungry person who sees food.
Abby Wambach:
Nope. That doesn’t ring true to me, because it was less about the institution of marriage, and more about wanting to be connected to you. I mean, don’t forget, we were so fucking obsessed with each other that I wanted to live among your body. It was ridiculous. I see how ridiculous that was, but that’s what love was to us then. It was almost like an escalation, like maybe this will allow us to even escalate the way we feel. It’s what addicts do. We were looking for the next tie. Honestly, I was addicted to you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, yeah.
Abby Wambach:
For sure.
Glennon Doyle:
So, as a feminist, what does it bring up to you to be someone’s wife?
Abby Wambach:
Well, I think it’s very different when you’re in a queer relationship, where feminism is honored and not squelched. There is no hierarchy here.
Glennon Doyle:
Right, there’s no hierarchy.
Abby Wambach:
Wife-wife. It’s not like husband-wife.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I think Jacqueline might be straight. She didn’t bring up-
Abby Wambach:
Where there’s a perceived hierarchy and a known… If you become someone’s wife, that you’re now married to a husband. There’s set expectations of cultures here and worldwide of how you’re supposed to be. That is not the case. We got to craft that ourselves.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And so, I get that deeply, the vibe of entering a heterosexual marriage. And you want marriage and you want love, but it almost feels like admitting deference or something. It’s like, the institution of heterosexual marriage has been so ingrained as a hierarchy that it almost would feel fraudulent to enter it without massive intentionality between the two partners, which can be done, and I’m sure can be done beautifully.
Abby Wambach:
Well, we’ve proven that.
Glennon Doyle:
I mean, we’re both women. I feel like it’s harder for-
Abby Wambach:
For sure. But what I’m saying is, you didn’t change your name, I didn’t change my name, although I really wanted to. Remember that time?
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, my God, you were going to be Abby Doyle. I was like, “I have to draw the line. I must draw the line. I cannot have the entire world mad at me, because now you’ve decided to be Abby Doyle.” I can’t even say it out loud. It makes me so uncomfortable.
Abby Wambach:
I know, but I just think-
Glennon Doyle:
But that shows how… Okay, sorry. Pod Squadders are going to get mad at me about this. I believe the name changing thing is so insane.
Abby Wambach:
It’s bizarre.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ll say, is so…
Abby Wambach:
Weird.
Glennon Doyle:
Weird. And by the way, I changed my name in my first marriage. I was Glennon Doyle-Melton. My kids all have Craig’s last name. That was an old consciousness that made that decision. I would never make that decision now. I don’t understand why we don’t rethink the idea that a woman is who she is in her name, until she falls in love and gets married. And then, who she is, as a person, disappears completely, literally in her name.
Abby Wambach:
I know, but also, that happened to your mom, and it happened to your grandmother.
Glennon Doyle:
But I’m just saying, we could rethink that.
Abby Wambach:
I know.
Glennon Doyle:
I respect you so much.
Abby Wambach:
I know, but your name isn’t necessarily your name.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
It’s weird. Our names are not our names, they’re our fathers’, passed down to us’ names. Generation after generation after generation. How many women have been erased?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, just erased.
Abby Wambach:
They’re given middle names. They’re like, “We’ll give you a middle name.”
Glennon Doyle:
Because they know nobody uses that.
Abby Wambach:
It’s so stupid.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t know. I think that there’s a lot of different valid opinions about this, but I do respect intentionality about it, and not just doing it as a default.
Abby Wambach:
Totally.
Glennon Doyle:
People should talk about it and really get beneath what it means to give up your name and take on someone else’s. And why not? Why doesn’t? It’s like, when you talk to somebody about why we should stop saying firemen, and they say, “Well, it’s just firemen is just the default. It’s not a big deal. It includes everybody, which makes sense to them, until you say, “Okay. Well, how about we just call them all firewomen? And that can be the default, and it’ll just include everybody.” And suddenly, that, when you reverse it, that feels crazy to the person, and that’s how you can get the person to understand how you feel, sometimes.
It feels like, to do that about names would be important. Like, “Okay, I understand, sir, that it doesn’t feel like a big deal to you if I change my name, so how about we just change your name to my name?” And then, how you feel about that would be how I felt about this if I weren’t conditioned to death to just take it. And I also think, with kids’ last names, I want to know what people do. I feel sad. There’s a part of me that feels sad that our children don’t have my name anywhere. I don’t know. And maybe that’s like… I don’t know. But I do, every once in a while, think, “Damn, I wish I had my new consciousness when I was making that decision.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. And I think that, to speak directly to Jacqueline here, marriage, in the institution of marriage, might not be for you, but that doesn’t mean you can’t necessarily enjoy all the fruits of what marriage can bring without the actual institution recognizing it.
I remember thinking as I was pretty young, that I would just get married in my own way, and I just wouldn’t receive the tax benefits or it being illegally sanctioned situation. And I remember thinking, “Well, really, it’s about me being able to stand up in front of my friends and family to honor this union, to do it in a way that makes it feel more profound than just dating somebody.”
So, I’m sure that there are a lot of different people out there, that have different ways to honor an increased step of commitment. I’m a firm believer in, I like to celebrate. And I think that when you do step into this world of “marriage”, whether you do choose to do it legally or not, that there needs to be a level of commitment there, and that needs to be celebrated and honored not just by the two people, but a witness or your friends and family.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Just two things about that that makes me think about, number one, our culture has made it so that it’s a nice idea to have your family honor your relationship and all of that, but it comes down to the safety of the family and the rights and penalties that our institutions will hold against people who don’t get married. For example, it’s not just tax and money. It’s like, who gets to visit you in the hospital? Who gets to take care of your children? I mean, we punish people who don’t choose marriage, or who can’t because it’s not allowed for them. So, it’s complicated in terms of just saying, “Well, I’d just like to celebrate the love.” You also need the legal protection, or you deserve the legal protection for the relationship.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Some people, of course, that’s what they want. That’s important. I don’t know if that’s something that Jacqueline is necessarily talking about here. I think that she’s trying to get right with the institution itself and how gross it can be in the name of love.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I think it’s wonderful and beautiful that we decided that we wanted to be legally attached to each other.
Abby Wambach:
I love being legally attached to you.
Glennon Doyle:
At the end of the day, you were literally like, “I don’t want you to be able to leave me without a legal problem.” You actually said that.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
But I also think about the moment where I felt like someone was expressing to me what the highest form of love is, and it was when Tish was talking about… I’ve told the story on the pod before, but somebody asked, who taught her the most about love? And she said, “Abby, because my mom and my dad have to love me, but Abby chooses it every day.” And so, I do believe in my gut that there’s a higher sort of love than just the one that says, “You have to because it’s contractually written down.” I’m not there. That scares me too much, but I feel like a higher version of myself would be comfortable in the idea that love is actually not something that you can put on a piece of paper and sign, that it’s actually at its truest, something that two people either choose every day or don’t.
Abby Wambach:
Totally. And I believe that to be true also with being married to you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, absolutely.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, there’s just so many things that happen in our daily life now. I’m so grateful to be married to you for all of just paperwork shit and stuff that we have to deal with, the house. To me, it was the foundation of building a life together, like this real, true “I’m not going anywhere. I’m legally binding myself to you.” And yes, I will admit, I have insecurity around that for all the right reasons from my past. But at the end of the day, it is something that I’m extraordinarily proud that you chose to marry me, and that I hope you feel the same way.
It’s a big step. It’s a serious step. It’s like, “This is no joke. We’re doing this step.” And I think because of that foundation, we’ve been able to hold each other accountable for continuing to build the most beautiful, truest version of life that we can envision, and it’s like… I think about our vows all the time. I think, what did I say to you? What did you say to me? And am I holding up my side of that, of the vows that we said?
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t know.
Let’s hear from Julie. Julie wants to know, where are all the lesbians?
Julie:
Hi, this is Julie. I left a very toxic marriage after 24 years. And I’ve always identified as bisexual, but now I’m really excited to meet women, except I don’t know how to meet women. I tried the app, the app suck. I really hate it. I am now 46 years old and single. And how do I meet lesbians? I live in Los Angeles, and I even looked up lesbian bars. And all my gay guy friends, nobody knows any lesbians. I know a million gay guys, no lesbians. So, where are they? Please help me. Please, please, please. And thank you for everything. You are all free gift, and I love you so much. Thank you. Help.
Glennon Doyle:
Julie, where are all the lesbians? First of all, congratulations. It sounds like you are in a tough spot in a marriage and you got yourself out. Way to go, Julie. And now you want to meet some women. Abby Wambach, where do people go to meet the lesbians? I met mine at a librarian conference in Chicago. I assume that’s not where lesbians usually meet up. So, where?
Abby Wambach:
Well, a couple of things. In Los Angeles, you could go to an Angel City soccer game.
Glennon Doyle:
Go to an Angel City game. So many lesbians.
Abby Wambach:
And the problem with gay… I wouldn’t say the problem. Yeah, it’s a problem. The problem with gay going out culture is that, usually, the gay bars in Los Angeles, whether it’s West Hollywood or… Where are all the women lesbian bars? See? You don’t-
Glennon Doyle:
[inaudible 00:36:39] at me.Abby Wambach:
Yeah. We don’t go out to bars. But back in the day when I did go out to the bars in Los Angeles, The Abbey was a thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Wait, what? It was called The Abbey?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, A-B-B-E-Y.
Glennon Doyle:
So, it was a bar?
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
I just need to know. I’ve never been to a lesbian bar. Oh, my God, Lauren… Our producers are-
Abby Wambach:
Silver Lake. Yeah, The Ruby Fruit. Yes. Yes. That’s exactly what I was thinking, the Ruby Fruit.
Glennon Doyle:
The Ruby Fruit in Silver Lake. Okay. So, those are two options.
Abby Wambach:
Silver Lake is a big gay-friendly area that there are a lot of women lesbians.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, that’s great. That’s a good hot tip.
Abby Wambach:
Queer folks, too.
Glennon Doyle:
Can you tell me, Abby, what is a gay bar like? I just want you to set the scene.
Abby Wambach:
Hold on a second. Wait. Have you ever been to a gay bar?
Glennon Doyle:
Never been to a gay bar. I’ve never got to do any of this. I was out with Alex the other day, and she went into a convenience store, and I was waiting outside, and these women came up to me. They didn’t know who I was. They didn’t know that I was with Alex, and they said, “There’s a very famous lesbian in that convenience store.” And I said, “What?” And they said, “From The L Word.” And they were talking about…
Abby Wambach:
Alex?
Glennon Doyle:
Our best friend, Alex. I don’t even know about The L Word.
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
I missed everything.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, you really did.
Glennon Doyle:
So, tell me, what is a gay bar?
Abby Wambach:
We’re going to have to watch The L Word together. The first, the original.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, let’s do it.
Abby Wambach:
It’s good. I mean, a gay bar is like a normal bar. A bar that you’ve gone to, it’s just like gay people, gay women or gay men or trans folks, queer folks, everybody in between.
Glennon Doyle:
That sounds wonderful.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I mean, and it’s really fun because now… We also have to remember, this is back in the 2010 era when I would be going to gay bars. The lipstick lesbian thing was just happening.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, wait. So, before that… I don’t want to say any words. I’m scared to get in trouble. Just tell me what you mean.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I mean, I’m probably going to say a lot of offensive things here, but it’s my people, so I get to say whatever the fuck I want.
Glennon Doyle:
There you go.
Abby Wambach:
The gay culture, the gay bar culture, usually, back in the day, you’d have one night a week that was ladies’ night, and then the rest of the week, it would be for gay men.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, sounds about right.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. And so, you’d go to the bar, I think The Abbey or another bar down there at the time, I forget what it’s called. You’d go, it was like a Monday night, ladies’ night, and it’s like all the butch lesbians are acting like frat boys. They’re just totally buying the hot women. And at this time, what we would call back then, lipstick lesbians, women who do not present, at all, gay. That’s who I was attracted to. And so, you’d be in there with your baseball cap and your baggy cargo pants, flannel, my hair pulled back because I had long hair, and you would buy a girl a drink, and you would try to have a conversation with the girls.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, my God. So, it’s just like a regular heterosexual bar. But was the music better, at least?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Was it like gay music? Was it like all Ani DiFranco?
Abby Wambach:
No, it’d be like Cher, because it’s like house music. You’re at a bar that people are…
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So, it’s still dance music. It’s not like we’re going into DiFranco vibes?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And can I ask you a question? Tell the truth. When Abby Wambach walked into the bar, because you were a bit of a butch icon, were you getting a lot of attention with [inaudible 00:40:27]?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah-ish. The problem is, not a lot of lesbians at the time were huge sports fans.
Glennon Doyle:
What?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, they were. But you also have to remember, this is back in the 2000s. This is pre-Twitter. Twitter wasn’t even a thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, you just missed your moment to be-
Abby Wambach:
And only the lesbians who were like real women’s soccer fans knew who I was.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
So, I would say-
Glennon Doyle:
Did you wear your jersey to the bar?
Abby Wambach:
No. No. I would say, I was recognized, but not a ton. I did go to Dinah Shore one year.
Glennon Doyle:
Tell the people what Dinah Shore is.
Abby Wambach:
So, it’s like a weekend that a lot of lesbians descend upon Palm Springs, and it often correlates with the women’s professional golf tournament. And also, it’s right around the final four time for the Women’s NCAA basketball tournament.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, my God. It’s amazing.
Abby Wambach:
So, it’s like this big weekend and there’s a white party. I did go to that one time, and that was shortly after… I think that I thought I was more famous than I was. My ego was like, “Everybody’s looking at me”, but probably nobody was looking at me.
Glennon Doyle:
I bet they were, babe. Is Dinah Shore still happening? Is it something that our friend, Julie, could go to? And would you recommend it?
Abby Wambach:
I would, if it is happening. I’m assuming it’s still happening. I have absolutely no idea.
Glennon Doyle:
But you would recommend it?
Abby Wambach:
Yes. But I think what Julie’s problem is, she needs to meet another lesbian. Even if it’s not to have sex with and hook up with, you need to have other women or folks that are identifying as lesbians, or queer that you can hang out with at these places, so that you don’t feel like you’re just there all alone.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. I have ideas.
Abby Wambach:
What are they?
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Here’s my couple of ideas just right now. Okay. First of all, I think Julie needs to be in spaces with queer people, not just to hook up, but because it just feels safer and better. My favorite social things in the entire world, my only social events I really like are when they’re full of queer people. I feel safer. I feel like it’s a different… Anyway. A couple of things I’ve gone to recently, where I’ve surrounded by this sort of community, Fortune Feimster’s-
Abby Wambach:
Oh, yeah, comedy shows.
Glennon Doyle:
Comedy shows.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Anything Fortune, anything-
Glennon Doyle:
Tig Notaro’s comedy shows. This is all in LA, Julie. Alex and Abby and I went together to both of them. And just joy. So many queer people. So many lesbians. Joy, joy, joy, joy.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay? Additionally, I think that Julie needs to go to all of Brandi Carlile’s concerts.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. But here’s the problem that, I think, Julie is saying, it’s, she needs a friend to be able to go, because it’s a hard thing to go to some of these things, solo.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, totally.
Abby Wambach:
She needs to figure out where she has a wing person. She needs a wing man or woman, or somewhere-
Glennon Doyle:
Human.
Abby Wambach:
Human.
Glennon Doyle:
A wing human. Okay. Well, let’s just put it to the Pod Squad. All right. Are there any lesbians in LA, in the Pod Squad, that are interested in being Julie’s wing person? We can put that out there. If so, call the number.
Abby Wambach:
We will friend connect.
Glennon Doyle:
We can try to matchmake a little bit.
Abby Wambach:
We’re going to turn into an app. We are now an app.
Glennon Doyle:
No, we’re not.
Abby Wambach:
We’re not an app, we’re not a dating app, but we are trying to connect Julie here with some people, some lesbos.
Glennon Doyle:
And at the same time, I would also like to maintain our healthy boundaries and not try to fix Julie’s life. So, I think just some suggestions about places she should go. Silver Lake, The Ruby Fruit, Tig Notaro shows, Fortune Feimster shows, Brandi Carlisle’s concerts. What’s the Weekend we go to that’s the best thing in the world? Girls Just Wanna.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Girls Just Wanna Weekend.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, with Brandi Carlile. And also, they have a bunch of queer cruises. I know that that’s expensive, but if that’s something that you could manage to do, I know a lot of people meet a lot of really cool queer folks on cruises. Gay cruises.
Glennon Doyle:
Really?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Cool.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Well, we love you, Julie. We feel excited about this journey for you and… Angel City. That was the last one.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Any Angel City games.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, Angel City, any WNBA games.
Glennon Doyle:
WNBA games.
Abby Wambach:
Also, I just want to acknowledge, find a friend. You can go meet other people there. It’s just better to do some of these things with a wing person, a wing human.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. Well, Pod Squad, thank you for that amazing circle time. I loved it. I love your questions. They make me think so much, and they make me appreciate being part of this community so deeply. Do you have anything to say to wrap it up, my love?
Abby Wambach:
I don’t ever get to say this or that often, but I feel so proud of this Pod Squad. You all, people, when they approach me out in the real world now, they never talk about soccer anymore, they’re only talking about the pod and how grateful they are that we do this. And I just want the world to know, and new Pod Squatters to know, this is honestly one of the things in my life that I feel the absolute most proud of, ever, more than soccer. I feel like this has brought me so much closer to myself and so much closer to really what I want to do in the world and what I love to do in this world. And I don’t know, I just wanted the Pod Squad to know how grateful I am. Obviously, I am to you, but this doesn’t happen without the people clicking on it and listening.
Glennon Doyle:
You know how you always used to feel, when you were playing soccer, that there was an element of it that you felt like you weren’t loved for who you are inside. You just had this skill, and this skill went away. It was over for you. You felt like it was a very conditional adoration that was based on this one thing that you could do, and if you lost it, it would be over. I wonder if this feels like being loved for or appreciated for who you are on the inside.
Abby Wambach:
Do you want to know the real truth?
Glennon Doyle:
I do. Always.
Abby Wambach:
Doing this, Pod Squad, has made me realize that adoration out there does nothing for me in here. And that it’s beautiful when people come up and tell me. It makes me know that my purpose in life is true, it’s real. I love it. But I have learned, from doing this pod, that there was a gap, that I didn’t know how to actually love myself and be in service to myself first. I was outsourcing that to the world, and I’ve learned that I’m not doing that anymore. I’m learning how to love myself so that when it actually comes to me, it’s matching.
Glennon Doyle:
Whoa.
Abby Wambach:
When the outside now comes to me, I don’t need to then go back out and keep producing. It’s like, like is seeing like, and it’s like, “Oh, I will take that.” And so, that is the greatest gift that this podcast has ever… That I didn’t even know it was possible that it could give me.
Glennon Doyle:
Bailey, did you hear that? Bailey? Bailey, are you picking up what we’re laying down, Bailey?
All right, Pod Squad, We Can Do Hard Things. We love you. See you next time. Bye.
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you’d be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you, because you’ll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you’ll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Audacy, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you’re there, if you’d be willing to give us a five-star rating and review, and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.
We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle, in partnership with Audacy. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman. And the show is produced by Lauren LoGrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlile.