The One Who Taught Glennon Friendship: Alex Hedison

June 25, 2024

Glennon Doyle:

Okay, we’re jumping right in today. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today, we have one of the most important people in our lives here.

Abby Wambach:

That is correct.

Glennon Doyle:

And the Pod Squad knows this person for many reasons. One, because of her work in the world, some of her work in the world that I consider most important is how she has taught me how to be a friend.

Amanda Doyle:

Great contribution to society. Thank you.

Glennon Doyle:

I think I should make it active, teaching. I don’t think we’re done, teaching Pod Squad. You know her because I talk about her nonstop on this pod, and her name is Alexandra Hedison. I’m about to do her professional bio, and then we’re going to get that over with and dig into our friendship and who you are as a person. Truly, you are one of the most important people in my life, Alexandra Hedison, and I’m so grateful that you’re here today.

Abby Wambach:

Samesies.

Alex Hedison:

I am so grateful. First of all, you’ve never called me Alexandra, so it’s shocking to hear my full name as if my mother is in the room.

Glennon Doyle:

I know.

Amanda Doyle:

She is. I hope.

Alex Hedison:

She is. She is, for sure. I’m so excited to be here. I can’t believe I’m here because I feel like I’m watching the podcast, and yet I’m talking to you as I’m watching the podcast, so it’s very confusing. It’s disorienting. But I’m enjoying it because I feel like I’m talking to you the whole time and you’re not listening. You don’t respond to me when I comment. Amanda says nothing. I’m like, “Amanda, you’re right on point.” You say nothing. You don’t acknowledge me as I’m walking my dog and talking to you. So today, it’s all happening the way I imagined it.

Glennon Doyle:

I feel like we just took a break from each other to sleep. We were together last night at dinner at your house with Ziggy, and Jodie, and Abby and me, and we talked about this day. Well, hold on a second, just in case you don’t know who Alexandra Hedison is.

Alex Hedison:

Oh my gosh,

Glennon Doyle:

I think I’m just going to-

Alex Hedison:

Please call me Alex, please.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay, but can I just call you, “Alexandra” in the professional manner and then I’ll switch to, “Alex” after this bio. Alexandra Hedison is an internationally acclaimed photographer, artist, director, and actor. Hedison has exhibited in galleries in the U.S and abroad. Her most recent solo exhibitions include the opening of Freeze Soul, Twenty-Twenty-Three 2023, Von Lintel Gallery, Los Angeles, H Gallery, Photo London and Paris Photo. Her acting career spans numerous television roles, including a pivotal character in the cultural phenomenon, The L Word, which all the OG lesbians know, and the newbies, sometimes embarrassingly admit that we didn’t know, but it’s a big deal. You’re a big deal in The L Word world. Okay. A critical voice in both the artistic and LGBTQ plus community, Hedison directed the short documentary film, ALOK, a thought-provoking short film that explores compassion as a catalyst for social transformation and inspires viewers to embrace personal freedom beyond the binaries that divide us. Produced by Natalie Shirinian, Elizabeth Baudouin, Meggan Lennon and executive produced by Jodie Foster, ALOK was selected to premiere at the 2024 Sundance Film Festival. And as we now know, just took the festival by storm. Alexandra Hedison. You’re so fancy.

Abby Wambach:

She’s now Alex. We can go on to the Alex part of her.

Alex Hedison:

Go to the Alex.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay.

Alex Hedison:

I’ve even changed to, “Alex” professionally. I’ve stepped away from the full, “Alexandra.” I like the non-binary aspect of, “Alex.” It feels all encompassing to me where, “Alexandra” reminds me of a way I was supposed to be my whole life, the way that I was informed that I should behave, I should feel I should act, I should present. And, “Alex,” there’s a freedom in, “Alex.” And so I have used that in my last two shows. And in the film it says, “Directed by Alex Hedison.” So you didn’t know this, did you?

Glennon Doyle:

I didn’t know that. That’s so wonderful.

Abby Wambach:

What you just said was also one of the best ways to describe you; all encompassing.

Glennon Doyle:

Mm-hmm.

Alex Hedison:

I love that.

Glennon Doyle:

I love it when people just claim a name. Because in most spiritual traditions, when people find their truth, they get named something new. They have a new name, and that’s really cool that yours was just right there, hidden in your longer name.

Alex Hedison:

And it’s not something you’re supposed to do. I’ve been showing my work for, I don’t know, 25 years. When you’re established as an artist, you don’t just change your name. My name hasn’t changed fully, but it’s not the same one that I’ve presented in the past. And it’s funny because my French gallerist, I’m not so sure that she’s down with it. They’re very traditional there. It’s like, “Oh, you’re Alexandra. I don’t know.” So it’s going to be a negotiation with her over time, I think.

Amanda Doyle:

Do you think that if you had grown up 30 years later that you would claim non-binary fully when you were younger?

Alex Hedison:

Oh, 100%.

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah.

Alex Hedison:

I’d claim a lot of things

Glennon Doyle:

Like what?

Alex Hedison:

I think as I have, I would say in the last few years I’ve woken up, I’ve woken up, and I am aware more than ever of the boxes I’ve placed myself into, the ones that were introduced to me, and then I consciously stepped into and closed the lid in order to stay safe, in order to be liked, in order to fit, in order to whatever. And that is true even within the gay community, even the queer community in relationships. “This is how I’m supposed to do relationships. This is how it’s supposed to look. This is how a gay relationship is supposed to look.” And ultimately, it was all modeled on a heteronormative idea, which is modeled on a patriarchal idea, and it doesn’t really suit me.

The reason I don’t go back and sort of claim names, claim new things, put myself in new boxes, is because I’m really curious about it all right now. And I also recognize that in many ways, I have, over time become used to doing things a certain way. And I don’t know that I would be able to hold the complexity or the trouble that comes with redefining myself. I think that there’s so many people now who are in relationships where they’re open to so many things, from polyamory to, they have a new language to talk about intimacy, and it’s so interesting. There’s so much more possibility in it. And when you’ve lived a certain way for a long time to engage differently than, for example, being monogamous, I don’t know that I’d be able to hold the complexity and the difficulty that comes with everything else because I haven’t practiced it. I really love what my life is, but I am definitely troubling a lot of things, and I have been for quite a few years now, really pushing the boundaries that I’ve set in place for myself.

Glennon Doyle:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda Doyle:

I just love the phrase you’ve been, “Troubling a lot of things”.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah.

Amanda Doyle:

Is that when this kind of stirring you have in you pours over and affects the other people in your life? Because an internal thing where you can decide, “Oh, I’m being something new. I’m feeling something new.” And then for me, it usually stops right at the edges of myself, because the thing I’m not supposed to do is impact others or disturb the waters outside of me. I can be all wavy and tsunami inside of me, but when it goes out, that’s a bridge too far. So when you say you’re, “Troubling,” are you allowing yourself to impact your ecosystems?

Alex Hedison:

Yes.

Amanda Doyle:

Cool.

Alex Hedison:

And I think for me, it might be the opposite. I think that the most painful thing is going through the crisis that comes with awakening. The falling apart, or demolition or slow crumbling of a system that you have held in place and tended to for years. And that can look like depression, that can look like anxiety, that can look like self-hate, it can look like a lot of things, negative voices, kind of a negative way that I have spoken to myself. “Why are you thinking that? Why are you saying that? Judgment. Self-judgment and allowing for it and creating space where I’m willing to listen to the parts of myself that feel tremendously inconvenient, and threatening, and be able to hold space for those parts.

And once I do that, once I’m willing to cross those thresholds, then I can settle into a new acceptance of who I am or what it is that I need. And then going to my partner or saying out loud to friends, “You know what? I’m Alex now, it’s Alex,” or whatever it is. Even something that’s more difficult, it feels like at that point, I’m coming from love and I’m not coming from judgment. At that point, I’m coming from a kind of harmony versus an inner turmoil, which I’m then projecting to the person in front of me saying, “I need this. I need freedom.” Because I’ve kind of found the place of freedom in me, and now I’m just sharing it and inviting the person across from me to be free also.

Glennon Doyle:

I mean, shout out to all people our age, I try to talk about this to my younger kids because they are being raised, this is always how generations work, right? They’re growing up in a world where the language around gender is expansive, the language around relationships is expansive, race, whiteness, all of it. It’s like their roots are growing in a field. We as open-minded people and curious people are listening to all of that language. And our roots are starting to grow too, but we’re in fucking pots already.

Alex Hedison:

Here you go with the pots.

Glennon Doyle:

But I’m just saying, Alex uses metaphors, so we will talk about something for a year before she tells me what she’s actually talking about. But we will talk for hours a day and she’ll say, “I’m a plant in a pot.” And a year later I’ll be like, “Okay, I just need to know what the fucking plant is.”

Alex Hedison:

Yeah, I did, I think for months and months and months, say, “I feel like my pot is breaking. I’m in this pot and it’s breaking.” And finally you just look at me. You’re like, “You just got to tell me, what’s the pot?”

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, “I can’t anymore.”

Alex Hedison:

“I can’t, what is the pot?” And the reason I do speak in metaphors, but in something like that, that’s exactly what I’m talking about, Amanda; that the hardest thing was for me to challenge my own system.

Amanda Doyle:

Mm-hmm.

Alex Hedison:

For me to really listen and go, “I have outgrown this. This does not work for me.” And to name it and then find a way through. Does this mean I have to toss away my whole life, or does it mean that I am willing to, that I must find the ways to be more in harmony, find the ways that are easier, that feel more true to me?” So, yes. Sorry.

Glennon Doyle:

No, I just think you’re the best example of that. There’s a lot of us in that slice like, yes, oh my God, the letters that I get from women who are married to men, and then when they’re 40 realize that they’re bisexual or they’re… What does one do with that? It’s different when you learn it young, and the language around it in the community, and then you can build your life based on what you know about yourself. But then when the world awakens something in you that was always there, but not accessible because the language wasn’t free enough, and you have already built a life based on pots. Just, I don’t have any answers, but to all of you who are in the even whiteness, like waking up.

Alex Hedison:

Oh, for sure. Waking up.

Glennon Doyle:

Oh my God. And then realizing, “Wait, how do I unplant myself?” Anyway.

Alex Hedison:

Unpot. You have to unpot.

Glennon Doyle:

See, this is where we get with the pots and plants, and then we’re talking about roots shit, and we don’t remember what we’re actually talking about.

Alex Hedison:

Well, that’s also another reason, like, why do we need to listen to the most marginalized voices? Because they are the ones who are calling out to all of us saying, “Wake up. This doesn’t work.” It’s not just they over there, it’s not working. The system doesn’t work. How are we all affected by it, and how are we all contributing to it?

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, that’s what ALOK, [inaudible 00:14:24] all these people, they’re saying, “I’m not saying learn about race, learn about gender, because I’m stuck. I’m saying learn about it because you’re planting yourself in small pots and you’re going to wake up one day and you’re going to feel suffocated.”

Alex Hedison:

Right. “And while you’re doing it, you’re suffocating me.”

Glennon Doyle:

Right.

Alex Hedison:

“I’m thriving in spite of you.”

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah. Yeah. Tell me, I want to hear the story from your perspective. Tell me about how we became friends. I want to hear your version, and then I want to tell my version.

Alex Hedison:

Okay. So it was a very unusual beginning of a friendship for me. I’ve never had anything like it. I read Untamed during the Pandemic, and I didn’t know your work before that. I think it was even before the podcast when you were doing little online things and you were talking and you kind of introduced, it was like you and Abby, we were in your house in Florida-

Glennon Doyle:

Morning meetings.

Alex Hedison:

You were connecting with people out loud. It was Christmas, and you’d say, “Come into our house for Christmas.” And I was stunned by how open you were, and vulnerable and the way you were talking about things. And it felt incredibly aligned to me. And most of the time I feel like there might be something someone’s saying that I’m connecting to, but it doesn’t feel to me like what they’re saying, and the way they’re living or what they’re doing, that they’re aligned. And it felt like everything was meeting with you and with Abby. The balance of your relationship and the humor, I just related to it so much. And then you had a podcast where you said something like, “We’ve moved to LA and gosh, we don’t know. We need to find a dentist for our kids.” And I thought, “Well, that’s it. That’s enough now.” Because at that point I was like, “We need to be friends.”

Glennon Doyle:

My pot has a dentist?

Alex Hedison:

Yes, exactly. Me, and by the way, everyone else who was listening to your podcast going, “We need to be friends.” But I said this to a friend of mine who is a doer, my friend Jamie Lee Curtis, we were on a long walk in Idaho, and I was talking to her about many things. I said, I really feel like I want to meet Abby and Glennon. And then later I said to her… I know Jamie, and I called her and I said, “By the way, you do not need to call anyone, or do something, or call an agent.” Because I know Jamie. Jamie will… Well, Jamie had already. Jamie’s like, “Too late. I’ve already texted someone” and she sends me back a text where she’s texted you. I don’t know how she got your number. She did it all within two hours, and she introduced us.

And then I remember we finally connected and we decided a time to get together. And from the beginning, I felt like you were inviting me to be as authentic as I crave, as I want to be all the time, just from the way the two of you presented yourselves. So I’m not really a night person, and you guys really aren’t night people, so we decided to meet at 7:00 in the morning.

Glennon Doyle:

We did. I was like, “This is my girl, I found her.”

Alex Hedison:

And I had to tell Jodie-

Glennon Doyle:

Oh God.

Alex Hedison:

Because I talked about you guys already going, “I feel like we need to be friends.” And I said, “Okay, here’s the thing. I talked to Jamie about Abby and Glennon,” and she’s like, “Wait, you did what?” “And wait, hang on, let me finish. And she’s already connected us.” “She did?” She was so baffled by the whole thing because we’re not really friends with people who are in the public eye, so much.

Glennon Doyle:

Right. Right.

Alex Hedison:

Especially Jodie.

Glennon Doyle:

Jodie was not having it.

Alex Hedison:

No. She’s like, “I don’t understand. Who are you? You’ve reached out to someone who from a podcast, what is happening?” I said, “I’m telling you, I have an instinct here.” And I said, “So we’re going to meet them.” I think I said, “Tomorrow.” She’s like, “What?” And I said, “Let me finish. They live…” And I told her where you lived, which was a good distance from our house. I said, “Let me finish; at 7:00 AM.” So she could not even understand what was happening. And I said, “I’m telling you right now that this is what we’re doing. It is happening and you have to trust me.” And we went to your house, and then I’ll let you take it from here.

Glennon Doyle:

Well, I want to fill two things in. From my perspective, I received what I felt like was what people do when they really want to adopt a dog. They send a long letter about themselves with pictures and how loving they are. I received a dog application from Jamie Lee Curtis about you. And inside this letter, there were the most beautiful descriptions of who you are as a person, paragraphs and paragraphs about who you are, how you treat your friends, you and Jodie’s marriage. She wanted to show me images to back up this. So she sent me pictures of you graduating from college because you graduated from Antioch a couple years ago, you went back to college-

Alex Hedison:

Yes. I went back to college during the pandemic, and I was a full-time student and graduated in 2021, the same year as one of our sons, by the way.

Glennon Doyle:

Which is the most beautiful thing; you wanted to reclaim that part of your life and of yourself, and you wanted to learn about social justice in a deeper way.

Alex Hedison:

Yeah. I went to a school that is rooted, every single course is rooted in social justice. I needed to relearn and I needed to go from the ground up.

Glennon Doyle:

And so when you were graduating, it was COVID. And so Jodie created a surprise graduation ceremony for you in the backyard with a marching band, a socially distanced marching band, and robes and staffs. I mean, the picture was of Jodie with a… She looked like a wizard. I don’t even know.

Alex Hedison:

She was wearing her, what are they called? The things that you wear in your graduation?

Glennon Doyle:

A stole? A stole.

Alex Hedison:

Whatever the-

Glennon Doyle:

Harry Potter looking-

Alex Hedison:

The robes are, I’m going to wake up tomorrow morning and go, “I can’t believe I couldn’t remember what it’s called.” And we’re all marching around the neighborhood, all of us. She said to everyone, “Anything that you graduated from in college, wear.”

Glennon Doyle:

Yes. And so that was it. I was like, “This is a good application.”

Alex Hedison:

It was a very good application. Jamie is good at an application.

Glennon Doyle:

And so then the next thing I want to say is in my whole life, I will never forget what Jodie looked like standing on our front porch, carrying that orchid at 7:00 AM, looking at me like, “Lady, I don’t want to be here either. All right?” And then we sat down. We were laughing about this last night at dinner because I think one of the first things she said to me was, “I don’t do famous friends. I don’t like famous people” or something like that, in general. I was like, “Well, you’re Jodie Foster. I don’t feel like we’re famous.”

Abby Wambach:

Yeah. We’re not famous.

Glennon Doyle:

And then she goes, “I mean, if Alex would’ve invited me to the house of a kindergarten teacher and a death doula, I would’ve been there, but you two,” you know? And I was like, “That’s very specific. Kindergarten teacher and a death doula.” So we sat down, and what I remember about that first meeting together is that we sat there for five hours, the four of us. Five hours. And none of us wanted to pee. We kept holding it, and then we kept going, “Just don’t say anything. I just got to pee. Don’t say anything while I’m gone.”

Abby Wambach:

I actually think about this every time I go in that bathroom, because at the time, we had just moved into the house and we didn’t have any blinds on the windows, and it was like, you’re going to pee. And I felt so bad, and Jodie came out and she’s like, “You know, you don’t have any blinds on the windows?” And I was like, “Yeah.”

Alex Hedison:

She did?

Abby Wambach:

Yeah. And I’m like, “I’m really sorry. I probably should put a temporary one in there,” but every single time I go in there, I think, “I’m glad there’s a blind in there now.”

Glennon Doyle:

So we took care of it.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah, yeah.

Alex Hedison:

I never noticed.

Glennon Doyle:

Then we just were like, okay, we’re doing this. And I was scared because I Pod Squad, you might remember this time as, I just didn’t really understand how to do friendship. We were connecting and I felt like, “Oh, I think I’m supposed to text her back. I think I’m supposed to call her back.” It became a very-

Amanda Doyle:

Intentional.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, there was an intentionality about it.

Alex Hedison:

I think that what you’re trying to say though is we had just moved from Florida and we have some lovely friends from Florida, and we love you all so very much. It was just harder to create and maintain friendships there because there were so much political undertones inside of so many of those relationships, and because we felt like we were seeing so clearly eye to eye, it was one of the first times that we felt like we were very aligned with friends, that it felt like you had this wanting to reach out.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, I was like, “Well, where are the red flags that let me get the fuck out of here?”

Abby Wambach:

Yeah. It wasn’t like, in your head-

Glennon Doyle:

There was no red flags.

Abby Wambach:

You were like, “What is this feeling that I want to know what’s happening with them right now and I’m curious about them, and I want to stay in touch with them.” I think that that was a confusing time for you because it’s always been kind of, “What should I be doing to maintain a friendship?”

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah.

Abby Wambach:

Rather than a want.

Alex Hedison:

Right. Performing a behavior.

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah. One of the reasons that I think probably was Alex was so attractive to you, Glennon, is because you never needed friends just to have friends. You want friends who are additive to your life, and I’ve heard people describe you, Alex, as you are not a witness friend. You are a challenger friend. You’re not just passively, “I’m here and I’m sitting by you, but I am seeing you and I am noting where you are not actually doing the thing that represents who you are.” And so, I bet you just could tell that from the beginning; this person is going to edify me, and see me and not put up with any bullshit.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah. And has so much wisdom. Every time we’d leave, I sometimes just feel like when I leave social situations, I feel drained. I feel like, I don’t know. Every time I left Alex’s presence, I felt like I learned something new, I knew something new. I had moments of, oh, lighting up. I felt like, “Oh, I understand why people want to be with other people.” Because they feel fuller, and better, and challenged and I don’t know.

Abby Wambach:

Seen.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, seen. And then you invited us to go away for a weekend. That was pretty fast.

Alex Hedison:

That was really fast. That was really fast. I do want to say that when we got in the car after that five hour breakfast, Jodie was floored. I mean, she was like, “Okay, I get it. That was amazing.” And I really enjoy being right. I’m going to be honest.

Glennon Doyle:

Yes.

Abby Wambach:

Don’t we all?

Glennon Doyle:

And I did say to her, “I did used to be a kindergarten teacher, if that counts for anything?”

Alex Hedison:

Yes, that’s right. You did say, “I used to be a kindergarten teacher.” That’s right.

Glennon Doyle:

And Abby’s obsessed with death.

Abby Wambach:

Obsessed with death.

Glennon Doyle:

Same, same.

Alex Hedison:

That’s right. That’s right.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah. But then we went on a ski trip.

Alex Hedison:

That’s right.

Glennon Doyle:

Well, you and Jodie went ski trip. Alex and I went on a sit trip.

Alex Hedison:

Right. Yes. So Jodie and I go to Idaho. We love to ski, and we invited you to come with us. And again, Jamie who has a house there, she’s like, “Well, you guys have to stay in our house.” I said, “Jamie,” you know, she said, “No, you have to. You have to stay in our house.” I said, “Okay.” And it was this little cabin in the woods, and it was still during COVID, so it’s not like we went to Idaho, went to restaurants, and we didn’t go.

Glennon Doyle:

[inaudible 00:27:34] No, we stayed.

Alex Hedison:

We didn’t leave the cabin. And this is early days. Early days. And I was really nervous.

Abby Wambach:

Same. First date nerves, for sure.

Alex Hedison:

I mean, and by the way, first date, like, first date, and we’re going on vacation together. It was a lot. And there was an incident. There was an incident where I am in the kitchen. The four of us are there, and I am making tea. And they have an electric teapot that looks like a nice old teapot that you’d put on the stove. I’m very visual. I like a visual cue. It’s an old teapot you put on the stove. And I put it on the stove and I turned the flame on and I’m chatting and I’m chatting, and was it Abby who came in and said, “Is that supposed to be on fire?”

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah. Because I was watching it. I was watching you. You were watching me. I was watching the teapot. I just get so confused in the kitchen, and it was a fancy kitchen, and I thought, “Maybe this one’s supposed to be on fire.” I did not even say anything to you. And then Abby came-

Alex Hedison:

And then Abby comes in like-

Glennon Doyle:

“Something’s wrong.”

Alex Hedison:

And I look at it and the teapot is on fire.

Glennon Doyle:

Oh God. It was on fire.

Alex Hedison:

And I took it off and quickly, I lifted up with a potholder, and I put it in the sink, which then it proceeds to not just… I’ve not just burned the stove, I’ve now burned the sink. Beautiful kitchen in this house of my beloved friend who’s been so generous. And I am stunned. I’m just stunned. And I think that all of you, you were very gentle with me, and I believe there was laughter, but I did not laugh. I did not laugh for a while. But it was just like it epitomized how I was so excited by our friendship. I was so excited for us all to be together. It was so much fun. And I kind of didn’t know what to do with myself. And so, I attempted to burn down their kitchen, but-

Glennon Doyle:

And we all have sobriety in common, so that should be mentioned, because it felt like right away, that’s why everything felt, to me, so aligned and why it was so easy to say yes, to go away for a weekend. There’s just so many things that are already sorted when you’re all sober people.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah, we’re going to go to bed early, we’re going to wake up early, we’re going to drink coffee and talk a lot.

Glennon Doyle:

We’re not going to have tea because that ship is sailed.

Alex Hedison:

No, that ship has… No.

There’s a commitment to consciousness and there’s a commitment to truth. And that’s for me, why I love this podcast so much. And I love your marriage so much, and I love your sister, and I love your whole team, because there’s this commitment to love, and truth, and being aligned and everything you do lines up. So it was such a surprise for me to actually be with you in person, both of you, and to know like, “Oh my God, they’re exactly the same way in their house as they are on the podcast. There’s no presentation.” And that was really big for me because I think in many ways, in my fear, I become curated. Even that we’re doing this podcast and we’re in my studio, and there’s going to be a clip that we’re in my studio. I’ve never shown the inside of my studio ever. Not a corner of it.

And it’s not like, “What am I hiding?” I mean, I’ve shown it where I have studio visits with people, but I’m just saying online. I don’t reveal myself. I don’t want to say, “Expose,” but I don’t reveal myself. And you all are very, there’s an openness. So our friendship started from a commitment to truthfulness, and love, and honesty and transparency. So even when you were talking about texting, “Do I have to text back?” I think that first breakfast, I said, “Here’s the thing, you don’t ever have to text back. Let’s talk about the rules.” And I think we did that in Sun Valley too with the postmortem.

Glennon Doyle:

So that is one thing that you have taught me and we have worked on is over-communicating. Communicating what do we need from each other? What do we expect from each other? What are ways we can help our friendship, things we can put in place. For example, we’ve talked about this on the pod before, but can you explain to us, you suggested we have a postmortem. I think in the beginning it was after every long date

Abby Wambach:

We went to brunch and we got in the car, and Alex, and Jodie were in the back seat… Or no, Alex was driving. I was in the front seat. And Alex, you said, “I really think that we should talk about…” Because what was coming up for you is all the things that you were a little bit worried about that maybe you said that maybe didn’t sit right, or you just wanted to clear the air, sort of thing. It was such a good idea.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah. You said, “You know how we’re going to go home and overthink everything we said wrong, or did wrong, or wish we said? Why don’t we just do that now? Just talk about everything.” And then we sat down at breakfast. Is that something you had done before or you just-

Alex Hedison:

No.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay.

Alex Hedison:

No, I was just aware that it was a big leap that we took, and I wanted there to be space to express the things that we were doubting or that I knew that I would go home and go, “Why did I burn the teapot?” Or, “Oh, maybe I should have done this,” or, “I hope they didn’t think…” And I wanted there to be room for all of that, to be able to say it out loud. “Is there anything that I wish I hadn’t done, or that I wish I had been more considerate of, or that I’m wondering if you think,” why not be curious about it and bring it into the room? And that was a really great moment, I think, for all of us.

Glennon Doyle:

Was that was the strengthening moment. And at first I was like, “I don’t think there’s anything.” And then I just started saying stuff, and it was the most vulnerable that we’d gotten. And then we ended up sitting there for two hours and it was a very beautiful exercise.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah, yeah.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah.

Amanda Doyle:

It’s like shining a light. The thing that you’re like, “Well, let’s just stay with the tour and hope nobody noticed that. There’s no need to go back and review that,” but it stays with you. And instead, shining a light and being like, “There’s this really awkward thing and I think that you’re going to think that maybe I think that way and I don’t. So let’s bring it out.” That’s beautiful.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah, you know like when you’re at the end of the night, you’ve gone to a dinner party and you’re walking around the bedroom, you’re taking off your jewelry, you’re brushing your teeth, and you’re downloading and processing what happened that night with your partner? We just wanted to do that with each other, out in the open.

Alex Hedison:

Well, also, I think I grew up presenting myself in friendships and then later in private or with my partner saying, “I can’t believe they did this.” Or, “I mean, how weird when they said that, what do you think they meant by it?” I don’t know. And we go back and forth, and then you make Assumptions, and then you build protections, or then you start to divest from the relationship.

Glennon Doyle:

Yep.

Amanda Doyle:

Yes.

Alex Hedison:

And with my close friendships, I bring it all into the room. And it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re heavy conversations, it’s just curiosity. Like, “Oh, when you did that, what was that?” Or I think the other day with you guys, I was talking about something. I was talking about the death of my parents, and I was talking about it in a way that was not very connected. I was talking about it very quickly, and without emotion, and it didn’t sit well with me. I just didn’t like it. And I brought it up to you later, and for you it was fine but I was really curious, “Did that sit wrong?” For me, it sat wrong. It was fine for you, but for me, I just needed to acknowledge, “I was really disconnected when I was saying that, and this is important stuff and I want to be able to slow down and be truthful about how I feel about it.”

Abby Wambach:

And it’s such a beautiful opportunity because it feels like what you said even from the beginning of this conversation, is that it’s really important for you to be in your alignment, or in your knowing or in your being. And every time, and this is something that I’ve learned so much from you, Alex, is every time you feel like you are out of alignment, or out of your knowing or out of integrity, even one step, not even very far, you bring it to our attention. And what I have learned is it’s not all about maintaining a beautiful relationship between the four of us. It’s about you maintaining the relationship with yourself, so that you can keep coming to this relationship and this friendship in alignment.

Glennon Doyle:

Yep.

Alex Hedison:

That’s exactly right. Because whether we are close friends for one more year or 40 years, that’s neither here nor there. It’s exactly right, Abby, it’s being in alignment. If I can come from a place where I feel that how I’m feeling and what I’m saying match, then the way I approach my friendships is from a place of love. It’s from a place of connection. There’s so much possibility, and whatever will be will be.

Amanda Doyle:

How did you hone that? That is a skill that is incredibly hard to identify. I think sometimes we feel nervous, or jittery, or we leave and we just say, “I feel ick.” But it’s very hard to identify, “I am not aligned, attuned in this moment,” or, “I can see the trigger that caused me to say that sarcastic thing when really I wanted to say a sincere thing about the way I felt.” How did you hone that skill? I think that’s a very specific skill to know when you are one degree off or right on.

Glennon Doyle:

And you have taught me as a followup to that question, because you have taught me more about that. That’s embodiment too?

Alex Hedison:

Yes.

Glennon Doyle:

When you’re the one who keeps teaching me, I say, “Well, this happened and then I blah, blah, blah.” And you say, “Well, did you say anything in the moment?” You’ve taught me to say, “I feel weird” in the moment staying aligned. How did you learn that skill?

Alex Hedison:

That’s such a good question. There are a few ways. Sobriety, for me, was the first step to becoming aware of how I was actually feeling.

Amanda Doyle:

How long have you been sober

Alex Hedison:

For 18 years.

Amanda Doyle:

Okay.

Alex Hedison:

I think for me, and for a lot of people, alcohol was actually not the problem. It was again, a metaphor, but I felt like I was in this broken down house that I was trying to keep erect, and there were cracks in the walls, and I kept going through the house and caulking up the cracks and then painting over. And the alcohol and drugs were just the caulk. It was just the paint. It was just trying to make it look as if everything was okay and the house needed to be rebuilt from the ground up. So sobriety has given me the ability to connect with how I’m feeling and what all the other issues are that are keeping me from being embodied, being aligned, being conscious, being vulnerable, being able to connect with others, being aware, being kind, being empathetic. Sobriety has allowed me to feel and to love myself and others. And so many times that’s painful because life is tremendously painful, and glorious, and surprising, and shocking, and upsetting and wonderful.

So sobriety was the first part of it. And then from there, I started on a journey, on a conscious journey where I would seek out the teachers who would help me with whatever the issue was that was keeping me from connection. So I had an incredible therapist named Beverly Berg who passed away just a few years ago. She was amazing. And she thought really outside the box. She was not like anyone I had ever met. And when I talked to her about something like, “Well, it was uncomfortable with this person or this friend because they do this,” she would say to me, “I don’t understand. So how long were you listening to them talk before you said something?” “I don’t know. It was probably like half an hour. I didn’t say anything.” “So you’re okay with just sitting and being uncomfortable for that long? So you’re going to privilege them over yourself? You’re going to privilege this idea of how you’re supposed to be, over actually acknowledging your own feelings?”

Glennon Doyle:

Yes. Beverly. We are.

Alex Hedison:

Absolutely. Yeah, because I don’t want to ruffle any feathers.

Glennon Doyle:

I thought that was called life.

Alex Hedison:

Yeah. “What do you mean? What do you mean? What are you talking about? How am I?” and I had to find the language because when I first became willing to speak out loud, it would go like this. “I don’t understand what you’re saying. I’m bored.” I’d shout it, and she’d be like, “Okay, maybe that’s not the way to do it. Maybe you could be curious. Perhaps you could say, “I just want to ask you, are you aware that I’m not speaking at all?”” So she started, and I use the word, “Trouble.”

Glennon Doyle:

Yes, “Troubling.”

Alex Hedison:

Trouble how to… Because she taught me how to stress relationships.

Amanda Doyle:

Jesus.

Alex Hedison:

We must stress relationships.

Glennon Doyle:

Say more.

Alex Hedison:

Stressing a relationship is me saying to Abby, “Hey, Abby, are you okay if I come later to that thing?” And Abby going, “Yeah, it’s no problem. Don’t worry about it.” And me still not believing like, “I don’t know if she’s just saying that to be nice. I’m not sure.” And me stressing it by saying, “Abby, I just want to ask you, what would it look like if you weren’t okay with it?” “Oh gosh. I’d say, “It hurts my feelings.” Or I’d say, “Actually, I really need you to be here on time.”” “Oh, okay. Thank you. Now I know how…” So I’m pushing it.

Or, “Amanda, when you ask me questions like that, it’s scaring me. I feel like I’m stupid or something. Are you questioning whether or not I know what I’m talking about?” I don’t know because I don’t know the answer. I can assume that you’re being judgmental. I can assume that you think I’m dumb. Or I can ask you by saying, “I’m feeling really uncomfortable right now and I don’t know why you’re asking me in that way. Can you tell me?” That’s stressing the relationship and being willing to hear the answer. And then Amanda can say, “I don’t know what you’re talking about and I don’t want to have this conversation.” And I can take that information and go, “Okay, I have information.” And then you start to make choices about your relationship and how much time you want to spend with that person.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay, everybody, we’re going to stop there with Alex, but don’t worry because we’re going to come back with Alex. This conversation needs to continue, and I have a couple questions to ask Alex because there are some answers she has given me that I know you are going to need to hear. So come back next time more with Alex Hedison. We Can Do Hard Things. We’ll see you soon. Bye.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you’d be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you’ll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you’ll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you’re there, if you’d be willing to give us a five-star rating, and review, and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.

We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle, in partnership with Odyssey, our executive producer is Jenna Weiss-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LoGrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz. I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlile.

Speaker 5:

(Singing)