Abby & Amanda’s IFS Therapy Sessions with Richard Schwartz: Why We Do What We Don’t Want to Do
April 4, 2024
Glennon Doyle:
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Thrilled to tell you that today we are back with Dr. Dick Schwartz who is helping us understand ourselves for the first time in a way that we understand, which is that we are a we inside. We’ve all been trying to figure out our I, and the reason it’s been so confusing is that we are not an I. We are a we. We have all different parts inside of ourselves. We contradict ourselves because we contain multitudes. And today, Dick Schwartz is back to help, actually Sister and Abby, in beautiful exercises, talk to their parts. And we’re all trying to get to this self, this adult in the room that will guide and lead our lives. And we all have this self. We know we’re living in this self or from this self when we are experiencing the eight Cs. And the eight Cs of true selfness are: curiosity, calm, confidence, compassion, creativity, clarity, courage, and connectedness. When we don’t feel those eight vibes, we know we are not bad, we’re just living in a part instead of from ourself.
Sister, would you go through one of these things, one of these exercises?
Amanda Doyle:
I sure would.
Glennon Doyle:
Would you be willing, Dick, to work with Sister-
Dick Schwartz:
Okay. Happy to.
Glennon Doyle:
… through one of these.
Amanda Doyle:
Good luck!
Abby Wambach:
This is my most favorite episode we’ve ever recorded.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s because You’re over there, not in the hot seat.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, I’m happy to go in.
Glennon Doyle:
In. Okay, let’s do it.
Dick Schwartz:
Okay. Do you have a part you want to start with, Amanda?
Amanda Doyle:
I don’t know what part it is. I can tell you a few of my major struggles that I’m having right now, but I haven’t yet identified what it is. And I think these might be all related, but I don’t know.
So I have a part of me that desperately doesn’t want to be out of control, and I have a part of me that is so angry and scared and lonely that I feel like I am in control of things.
I have a part of me that is so exhausted and tortured, that just wants to stop deciding if everything is okay or good enough. And then I have a part of me that feels like I need to stay vigilant to make sure things are good enough or everything’s going to go to shit.
Dick Schwartz:
Can I pause you for a second?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Dick Schwartz:
So of all those, the last one is probably the place I’d advise that we start.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay.
Dick Schwartz:
It’s clearly a protector. So you ready?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. And can I tell you something, my truthiest truth?
Dick Schwartz:
Sure.
Amanda Doyle:
My thing that I’m desperate to figure out is how to be satisfied. Really, I am desperate to do that. I am always seeing what is wrong and always reacting to things that I don’t see as good enough. And there’s a part of me that hates that so much and desperately wants to be satisfied.
Dick Schwartz:
Got it.
Amanda Doyle:
And I can’t be. And also it’s the last thing that my ex-husband ever said to me was, “You’ll never be satisfied.” And I am like, “Is that true?” Anyway, my truth is that I just want to be satisfied, and satisfiable.
Dick Schwartz:
So we could start with that polarization, if you’d like.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay. That would be great.
Dick Schwartz:
So between those two, the one who is never satisfied and the one who desperately wants to be, which would you pick to start with?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. I know more about the one that’s never satisfied. That’s the one I know better.
Dick Schwartz:
So should we start there or you want to start with the other one you don’t know as well?
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, oh. Sure. Maybe the one I don’t know as well is a great idea.
Dick Schwartz:
Okay. So you ready?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Dick Schwartz:
So focus on that voice or however you experience it and find it in your body or around your body. Where do you find it?
Amanda Doyle:
Kind of above my stomach.
Dick Schwartz:
And as you notice it there, how do you feel toward it?
Amanda Doyle:
I feel curious and like I want to hear more.
Dick Schwartz:
Perfect. So let it know that and just ask what it wants you to know about itself. And don’t think of the answer. Just wait and see what comes.
Amanda Doyle:
I just hear, “We were always here.”
Dick Schwartz:
Okay. Yeah. And what’s it want you to know about that?
Amanda Doyle:
That it has just felt kind of ignored and sidelined.
Dick Schwartz:
Because it has, right?
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Dick Schwartz:
So if it feels okay, maybe you could apologize to it for doing that.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay.
Dick Schwartz:
And just see how it reacts to your apology.
Amanda Doyle:
I feel like it got a little bigger. I didn’t hear anything, but I feel like it just puffed up a little bit.
Dick Schwartz:
Does that feel good or is that okay?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Dick Schwartz:
Yeah. So let it know that while you have historically ignored it, you’re not going to do that now, and you really welcome it. And just see if there’s more it wants you to know with that.
Amanda Doyle:
It feels kind of surprised, like maybe it was resigned to not have that be the case? I don’t feel like it’s resentful about it, but also that doesn’t feel like it’s packing its bags, like maybe doesn’t [inaudible 00:07:17] very much.
Dick Schwartz:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
Like, “Okay, here we go!”
Dick Schwartz:
So you’re going to have to earn its trust, right?
Amanda Doyle:
Right.
Dick Schwartz:
And are you open to doing that?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Dick Schwartz:
And how does it react to hearing that, that you’re willing to earn its trust?
Amanda Doyle:
It’s very laid back. I don’t get the sense that it’s holding a grudge about it or anything, like it’s been counting the cost. It’s just feels like, it’s just like, “Okay, maybe you were going to come or maybe you weren’t, but I was here regardless.”
Dick Schwartz:
Okay. Okay. So ask again though, now that you have come, is there something it wants you to know or do?
Amanda Doyle:
To pay attention to it, spend time with it.
Dick Schwartz:
And if you did that, what would that be like for it? Or what would you be doing in your life differently or anything like that?
Amanda Doyle:
I’m not getting a lot there. But weirdly, I’m not seeing other people involved, which is interesting because I usually feel like my dissatisfaction is outer-based. But this is feeling like it would be more just me hanging out with this part.
Dick Schwartz:
And how does it feel to consider doing that?
Amanda Doyle:
It feels good and interesting.
Dick Schwartz:
So let it know that you’re very interested in that proposal and maybe ask how often it would want you to do something like this.
Amanda Doyle:
I feel like it’s getting higher, a little sliver higher. Not the whole thing, but just a little line of it is getting higher. It’s saying, “All the time, but just a little bit.”
Dick Schwartz:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
It doesn’t need to be a X amount of time a day or something, but just asking to be able to be there all the time.
Dick Schwartz:
And how does that sound?
Amanda Doyle:
That sounds good.
Dick Schwartz:
So tell it you’re going to work to try and do that for it.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay. I did.
Dick Schwartz:
And before we stop, ask how it feels toward the part that’s so dissatisfied with the outside world.
Amanda Doyle:
The first reaction was kind of laughing at it and not in a mean way, but more in a, “Oh, that rascal,” kind of a way. But then it did get a little sad.
Dick Schwartz:
Well, it’s probably sad that that part has crowded it out all these years. Yeah.
So would it be okay with it if we spent a little time with that one?
Amanda Doyle:
I thinks that would be a good idea.
Dick Schwartz:
Okay. Are you up for that?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Dick Schwartz:
So focus on that one and find it in your body or around your body.
Amanda Doyle:
It feels a lot of places, like my head and my arms and my shoulder kind of thing.
Dick Schwartz:
Great. And as you notice it, how do you feel toward it?
Amanda Doyle:
Very familiar. Kind of exhausted, but like a knowing, a comfortable exhaustion kind of a thing.
Dick Schwartz:
Yeah. Okay. Let’s ask both the exhausted parts and the parts that are so comfortable with it to give us more space to just get curious about it and see if they’ll separate a little bit.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay.
Dick Schwartz:
Do you feel open to getting to know it now?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Dick Schwartz:
All right. So ask it if there’s something it wants you to know about why it’s never satisfied. And again, don’t think, just wait and see what comes.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m seeing an armor thing. And, “How will we know?” Is what I’m hearing, like, “How will we know?”
Dick Schwartz:
How will know if we are satisfied or what’s the-
Amanda Doyle:
Or like how will we know if it’s good enough or right.
Dick Schwartz:
Ah. Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
Or if things should be better, how will we know?
Dick Schwartz:
Okay. Yeah. And what do you say to it about that?
Amanda Doyle:
I want to say that it also doesn’t feel right to always be looking for what’s wrong, either. I don’t know if it’s we’re netting out better, is what I’m wondering of it.
Dick Schwartz:
Okay. But I think that’s another part. So let’s see if that one can step out that wants to argue with it.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay.
Dick Schwartz:
So it’s saying that it really can never tell if things are good enough. Ask if that’s true.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m hearing that it believes that it’s the one who can tell if it’s good enough.
Dick Schwartz:
Oh, okay.
Amanda Doyle:
And so that’s why it needs to keep working, because how will we know if things are as good as they can be if it’s not looking for what’s wrong?
Dick Schwartz:
So it doesn’t trust you to tell?
Amanda Doyle:
Oh. I think it thinks it is me.
Dick Schwartz:
Yeah, it probably does. So let it know you’ve got some news for it, that it’s a part of you, but there’s a you who’s different from it. And see how it reacts to that.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, that’s interesting. It feels like it got a little smaller, like I don’t think it knew that.
Dick Schwartz:
Right. And the good news about that is that this you can make those decisions for it-
Amanda Doyle:
Wow.
Dick Schwartz:
… because this you’s grown up.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. So it isn’t that I won’t see things that need to be seen, it’s that this part doesn’t need to see all of those things for me.
Dick Schwartz:
That’s right. It’s had way too much responsibility for running your life. And the sense I get, because it’s showing it’s much smaller than it’s been puffed up to be, is that It’s pretty young itself. You can ask it. How old is it? How old does it think you are?
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a kid. It thinks I’m a kid.
Dick Schwartz:
Yeah. So again, let it know that you’re not. Maybe when you were that age, needed to do this for you, but it doesn’t anymore.
How’s it reacting?
Amanda Doyle:
It’s funny. I saw it big on my shoulder. It’s kind of like one of those dinosaurs and they have spikes and stuff, and it’s getting smaller. I don’t think it ever thought that there was another person who could take on the job.
Dick Schwartz:
That’s right. Yeah. This is what in family therapy we used to call a parentified child. It’s a parentified inner child who’s had to do this all this time, but is in over her head. It’s too young to do this. So it’s a relief to know that there’s somebody else in there.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s cool.
Dick Schwartz:
How’s that feel?
Amanda Doyle:
It feels good. It feels really good. I don’t know, it’s so interesting taking a step back to be like the binary of that. Like, “Well, it’s either everything’s going to go to shit or this part has to keep doing its thing.” When you get a tiny bit of space, you’re like, “That’s insane.” Yeah, because I’m a whole grown-ass person who could do that.
Dick Schwartz:
That’s true.
Glennon Doyle:
Sister, did you feel like that part, that unsatisfiable part, was at the head of the table? Like it didn’t know there was another you that could take over at the head of the table? Is that what just happened?
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, I wasn’t seeing it as a table. I literally saw it as an armor on my arms. But then when we were talking to it, something came up that was holding up the armor that was sturdier.
Glennon Doyle:
Ah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, that part of you thought the armor was your skin, but then this other part was like, “Actually, no, that’s just armor.”
Dick Schwartz:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah!
Glennon Doyle:
Cool.
Amanda Doyle:
And I almost didn’t want to say that I was seeing that because it’s so cliche. It’s like, “Oh, you read the book and it’s armor?” But then I also saw the color with the satisfied, the little tube that came up, it was blue, like your glowing thing. It wasn’t glowing. But that’s weird, right? Is that weird?
Dick Schwartz:
It’s not a bit. No. It’s all very real.
Abby Wambach:
And so what would then be Amanda’s exiled part?
Dick Schwartz:
We didn’t get to it. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Because we’re talking about the protector, right? Okay.
Dick Schwartz:
Well, the first part had been exile.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Dick Schwartz:
I didn’t get the sense it was a traditional exile, what we were talking about earlier. It was just a part that, because of the dominance of this parentified part, had been pushed out, and so that’s why we apologized to it. But we didn’t get to a real vulnerable exile in this piece of work. It’s likely that there is one that this armored part had been protecting, but we didn’t really have time to ask about that.
Glennon Doyle:
You truly believe that everyone is good?
Dick Schwartz:
Correct.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Can you tell us about that? No bad parts and that people are good, how do you come to that conclusion?
Dick Schwartz:
40 years of finding that out? Yeah, just over and over. In the early days I would do a piece of work with these kinds of parts, particularly eating disorder parts. And I would find they’re not what they seem. They’re actually very valuable parts that have been thrust into these roles. But I thought, “Okay, maybe that’s true for those parts, but what about people who have done heinous things?” And so I was in a department of psychiatry and so I had access to some of those patients and I would work with those parts. And even those parts, when we got curious about them in the way we’ve been doing. And when I got that, I thought, “Wow, this is quite something, that there really aren’t any bad ones.” And it’s been a tough sell, as you can imagine, because our culture in our field says, “No, there are lots of bad ones.”
And in addition, when I discovered self and it can’t be damaged, because I’d studied attachment theory in graduate school, and that theory says for you to have any of those C-word qualities, you had to have gotten them from a relationship. You had to have gotten them from your parents. If you didn’t get them from your parents, you had to get them from your therapist or from your partner. They aren’t inherent in you, in other words. And here I was finding, even in people that had horrible parenting, horrible, torturous parenting, was the same damn self. How can you square that with traditional psychology? You can’t. And it wasn’t actually until I was steered, because I wasn’t a spiritual person at all, but people said, “Well, maybe it’s like buddha-nature, or maybe it’s like Atman in Hinduism, or maybe it’s like Christ consciousness.” And it turns out that virtually every spiritual tradition knows about this, whereas almost no other psychologies do, and that I had stumbled onto a way to access it very quickly. You don’t have to meditate 20 years to get to it.
Glennon Doyle:
How do you get to it quickly with someone? For everyone who’s listening right now, it is very easy, as was just seen with Sister and with me, you can think you are that part, that damaging part.
Dick Schwartz:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
How does a person that’s listening right now separate and understand that they actually have that, no matter what has happened to them, no matter how lost, that they can get back to that self that has all of those Cs?
Dick Schwartz:
Yeah, I can describe the steps that I just did with the two of you, which is to have you focus on how you experienced the part, find it in your body, and then this question, “How do you feel toward it?” becomes the self detector. So if you say, “I hate it” or, “I’m very tired of it,” or, “I’m afraid of it,” that wouldn’t be self. That’s not a C word. So I have you ask those parts to give us space to just get to know them little bit and get curious about it. And then as they do that, if they’re willing, you kind of immediately access some qualities of self.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Dick Schwartz:
Now, a lot of times, unlike the two of you, these other protectors aren’t going to open any space. They’re not ready. There’s a lot of work that has to go in until the point gets to where they’re trusting it’s safe to let self come out. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
How do you feel like people starting to understand themselves as parts could benefit our entire culture and world?
Dick Schwartz:
That’s a big part of my goal now and my guidance. I’m actually trying to bring this to larger systems rather than just in psychotherapies. Because I do believe that if people got this, there are no bad parts, that it’s a big mistake to fight with them or try to suppress them or even be afraid of them, and that there is this self in there that as the parts open space immediately has compassion for your enemy and immediately knows how to relate in a healing way to your enemy, that could change a lot of things.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Dick Schwartz:
So that’s my goal now is to find ways to bring it to larger systems.
Glennon Doyle:
I have seen it change the system of our family. Right, is that what you were going to say?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I just think that this is so fascinating to me because I think that I have a personality that is super compassionate and open to lots of different people, lots of different ways of being. And then I do run across a couple of people, literally, I can count them on one hand, that I’m just like, “No.” And I wonder if part of my no feeling has to do with me just feeling like they’re presenting themselves only with their parts and not with the true essence of who they are.
Dick Schwartz:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
But I just think that this approach allows me to really see people as the full complexity of who they are. And it has changed the way that I approach my parenting. I mean, my God, the way that I approach our children has completely shifted. My relationship with my children has so much more to do with me than them.
Dick Schwartz:
That’s right. Totally.
Abby Wambach:
And the parts that come up or the things that I get triggered in or the way that I was taught how to parent comes into effect more than the way that my kids are behaving. It’s just been completely mind-blowing.
Glennon Doyle:
And understanding them. I mean, we had a situation with one kid where you’re always, as a parent, trying to figure out, “Are they on the right track or wrong track? Are they good or bad? Am I nailing this?” And recently we had a thing where one of the kids was making a interesting decision and that scared the shit out of me. I went to, “They’re bad, they’re not…”
Abby Wambach:
“They’re on the wrong track.”
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And then I started thinking about your work and I actually said to the kid, “You know what? I also have a part of myself that does things that the other parts know aren’t going to be good for us, and yet I still do them.” And that’s all I said, and it changed everything. They were like, “Yeah! This part of me wants to…” And just because their part is doing something different than that part of mine does, we didn’t need more than that. We just needed to understand isn’t that effing weird that parts of us do things that the other parts know are not… It was a beautiful understanding where each of us were like, “Well, no bad parts. Isn’t this confusing?” And we didn’t get further because we didn’t have you there.
Dick Schwartz:
But what I like about what you’re saying is even that much can make a big, big difference in your interactions. So what if everybody knew how to do that and could do that with their kids? It’s what we call self-led parenting, which I listened to the episode when you had Dr. Becky on. I’m thrilled that she’s into this. Yeah, it’s great.
Abby Wambach:
Well, and it makes me feel like the paradigm shift that could happen if more people implemented this into their lives. I mean, the polarization of, “You have to be this or that” with social media, with politics, the whole thing. To me, it feels like this could solve at least the wanting to put people in these boxes.
Glennon Doyle:
Categories, yeah.
Abby Wambach:
And the categories that makes people afraid and makes people fight or riot or whatever.
Dick Schwartz:
Totally.
Glennon Doyle:
How would you suggest that people who might not have access to an IFS therapist or our Pod Squad friends that are listening right now, how do people integrate this or start to understand themselves this way when they don’t have therapists to walk them through it?
Dick Schwartz:
Yeah, we’re actually starting to put out more for the public directly. Sounds True did a series of meditations-
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, cool.
Dick Schwartz:
… called Greater than the Sum of the Parts, I think it is. And then also this book, No Bad Parts, is written for the public, and a lot of people get a lot out of that. Off our website, we have a program, the Online Circle program, and from that you get the basics without having to go through the whole training. And it’s, in some ways, a pretty simple process. Because I was basically doing the same thing with both of you and it took 10 minutes for each of you, or maybe a little more than that, but you got to some pretty important stuff.
Glennon Doyle:
So we have 10 minutes left. Do you want to do a quick one?
Abby Wambach:
Sure.
Glennon Doyle:
Would you be open for that?
Dick Schwartz:
Totally.
Glennon Doyle:
To end with Abby Wambach here?
Abby Wambach:
Okay. What do I do?
Dick Schwartz:
Do you have a part in mind to start with?
Abby Wambach:
Can you explain more specifically? I understand the parts idea, but what are we trying to get after? Something I want to change, a part of me that I want to get to know more?
Dick Schwartz:
Yeah. Yeah. If there’s a part that gets in your way in some way in your life.
Abby Wambach:
I have a self-esteem thing. I’ve always felt a little unlovable. There are parts I built upon this wound that made me one of the best soccer players in the world, and I did a lot of really cool shit with it. But also, I feel like I’m left still at times wondering what that is, what happened. When I look out in the world, I feel like everybody knows that they understand self-love better than I do.
Dick Schwartz:
Well, first let me say that that’s totally not true.
Abby Wambach:
I know. I intellectually know that, but then I look around and I’m like, “They for sure love themselves more than I even understand how to.”
Dick Schwartz:
So with that, it is usually two parts you’re talking about. One would be a critic who says you’re not lovable, and then another would be an exile that believes it.
Abby Wambach:
Right.
Dick Schwartz:
Do you follow me?
Abby Wambach:
Yes. Okay.
Dick Schwartz:
So typically we would start with a critic to try and get permission to go to the exile.
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Dick Schwartz:
So you ready?
Abby Wambach:
I am ready.
Dick Schwartz:
So find that one in your body or around your body.
Abby Wambach:
Got it. It’s in my head.
Dick Schwartz:
How do you feel toward it?
Abby Wambach:
I feel so fucking annoyed by it.
Dick Schwartz:
Of course.
Abby Wambach:
I’m just like, “Fuck you.” Like, “Dude, stop this.”
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a guy. Of course it’s a guy,
Dick Schwartz:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
Sorry.
Dick Schwartz:
All right, that’s enough out of you, okay?
Glennon Doyle:
Sorry. I’m muting myself.
Dick Schwartz:
So ask the one who says, “Fuck you” to the critic if it’s willing to give us a little space to just get to know it better and maybe even help it not have to do this.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I’m letting-
Dick Schwartz:
It said yeah?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, it said, “Fine. Go ahead.”
Dick Schwartz:
Good. So now how do you feel toward the critic?
Abby Wambach:
I feel a little softer, like my screen is green.
Dick Schwartz:
Good.
Abby Wambach:
I am approaching it with hopefulness of understanding you a little bit better.
Dick Schwartz:
Good.
Abby Wambach:
But like I’m side-eying you. I’m like, “Hmm.”
Dick Schwartz:
But what did you say?
Abby Wambach:
I’m like side-eying it. I’m like, “Hmm, do I want to trust you that you’re…” Yeah.
Dick Schwartz:
All right. But let’s get that one out too, the one who’s distrusting of it.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Dick Schwartz:
Just see if you can open your mind and your heart to it. I know that’s a stretch, but just see if you can.
Abby Wambach:
Okay. It’s a little bit more yellow.
Dick Schwartz:
Okay, good.
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Dick Schwartz:
And how are you feeling toward it?
Abby Wambach:
I’m feeling curious. Like, “Tell me more. What have you been doing? Why do you do this?”
Dick Schwartz:
Perfect. So just go ahead and ask it. And again, don’t think of the answer, just see what comes.
Abby Wambach:
It’s telling me that I had to do this. There was reasons why I had to do this.
Dick Schwartz:
So ask it about those reasons. What’s it afraid would happen if it hadn’t done it or still doesn’t do it? What’s it afraid would happen?
Abby Wambach:
It’s afraid that I would become invisible.
Dick Schwartz:
And then what would happen if you were invisible? Or to whom is it afraid you’d be invisible?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. It’s afraid that if the critic wasn’t present, that my mother would not love me. It felt keenly aware that it needed to be present in my life to survive.
Dick Schwartz:
Okay. And how do you feel toward it now as you hear that?
Abby Wambach:
I just feel so grateful.
Dick Schwartz:
So let it know. Let it know.
Abby Wambach:
Thank you for surviving.
Dick Schwartz:
Saving my life.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Dick Schwartz:
That’s right. And how does it react to your gratitude?
Abby Wambach:
Well, it’s like, “You’re welcome. It’s been a while. It’s taken you long enough,” almost.
Dick Schwartz:
It’s about time, right?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Yeah.
Dick Schwartz:
Yeah. And I mean, maybe ask it how old it thinks you are.
Abby Wambach:
So I’m asking my critic how old it thinks myself is?
Dick Schwartz:
Correct.
Abby Wambach:
It’s saying you’re pretty young and, yeah, like three or four, weirdly.
Dick Schwartz:
Yeah. Okay. So let it know when you were that age, it really did need to do this to save your life.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. It really did.
Dick Schwartz:
But let it know how old you are and how you don’t quite need that right now.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I’m 43.
Dick Schwartz:
And see how it reacts to that info.
Abby Wambach:
Whoa. Time passes much slower for it than they understood.
Dick Schwartz:
Time doesn’t really pass because it’s frozen back there.
Abby Wambach:
Right. Yeah. They’re amazed.
Dick Schwartz:
Yeah. Amazed in a good way? Are they happy about this?
Abby Wambach:
Well, they feel a little bit like, “I didn’t need to be here all this time.”
Dick Schwartz:
Well, that’s sort of true.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, almost they’re like breathing like a sigh of, “Ugh. Okay. “
Dick Schwartz:
That’s right.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, “A lot of time has passed and I’ve been working. I’ve been on…”
Dick Schwartz:
Yes. So they’re pretty tired, pretty tired.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. They are tired.
Dick Schwartz:
So if they really trusted this and they did trust they didn’t have to keep doing these jobs, what might they like to do instead?
Abby Wambach:
I think that they would like to sit back and just watch and not need to step in. Because I know this happens when I’m questioning myself on whatever decisions I’m making and I’m always conferring with this critic. It’s like it’s the judge and the jury. And so it’s like I’m just going to sit back and now that I know you’re this 43-year-old, I guess I need to ask it to develop some trust with me that, yeah, I’m going to make mistakes, I might not make all the right decisions, but I really want to take a seat at the table.
Dick Schwartz:
And how does it react to that request that it trusts you to do that?
Abby Wambach:
It feels like it’s time.
Dick Schwartz:
Good.
Abby Wambach:
I just see bags under its eyes kind of. They’re just like, “I’m ready to take a seat.”
Dick Schwartz:
That’s great. So ask it how often it would like you to come and remind it about this and help it keep that seat.
Abby Wambach:
For sure like three times a day.
Dick Schwartz:
At least for a while until it really gets it. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Dick Schwartz:
Are you up for that?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I feel like I can check in with it. It’s almost like changing forms in a way. It doesn’t have the form of a critic. It has the form of an elder who’s just like, “I’m here if you really want to call upon me, but I’m not going to step in. And you can check in with me to make sure that that’s true, if you need that.”
Dick Schwartz:
So that sounds like the perfect new role for it.
Abby Wambach:
It feels like that. It feels like, “Okay. That’s good.” Yeah.
Dick Schwartz:
Good. Cool.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re good at parts work, babe.
Amanda Doyle:
I almost feel like-
Glennon Doyle:
We’re fixed?
Amanda Doyle:
It feels like we’re faking it because that’s been 40 freaking years and you just took it three minutes. Doesn’t it feel embarrassing by how quick it is?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Surely it can’t be that quick.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I mean, obviously the proof will be in the pudding, right? Well, I want to actually talk to it three times a day for the next-
Amanda Doyle:
Right. But you actually saw it change form.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
I actually saw mine get smaller and the other one get bigger.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
I’ve been in therapy for 15 years and can’t fix anything in myself. That’s kind of wild to even be able to identify those things that quickly.
Dick Schwartz:
Well, you guys are good at it. I can’t do as much as we did with everybody in that short time. But as you can see, it’s a very different approach to therapy.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, I already feel like I love myself a little bit more.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, babe.
Dick Schwartz:
Yeah. That’s cool.
Abby Wambach:
That is weird.
Glennon Doyle:
Dick Schwartz.
Abby Wambach:
Because the whole time, my whole life, I’ve just been like, “Do you? I don’t know, could you?” And now this elder, without it in the way, it’s opening up this little path.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like all of these parts, they just need to know that someone’s there to take care of them, that there’s somebody else in the room. There’s an adult in the room now.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s you and it’s me and it’s you, Sister.
Dick Schwartz:
Yeah. They’re a bunch of little kids. It’s like the book we had to read in high school, Lord of the Flies.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes!
Abby Wambach:
Love that book.
Dick Schwartz:
And there’s no adults around and they’re all dying for somebody to come along and say, “I’ve got this.” And they think they’ve got to do it. It’s like there these parentified inner children. But they seem so blown up and smart and you identify that this is who you are and they obscure what I call your self.
Amanda Doyle:
I have a question about the obfuscation of self. In my vision and I imagine in many’s, I thought my part was myself.
Dick Schwartz:
Correct.
Amanda Doyle:
And so one of your big goals of IFS is to become self-led. For someone who’s either starting out or on this path or having done it for a long time, is there a way that you have identified to check in to know, “Oh, in this moment I am self-led as opposed to part-led?”
Abby Wambach:
That’s a good question.
Amanda Doyle:
Is there a test?
Dick Schwartz:
Really good question. So for example, as I approached this podcast, I checked in and I just noticed, “How am I feeling about doing this?” And I could find these little scared parts and parts that a little bit dissociate me at times. So as I found them, I just started to do a version of what you’re going to do with your part, which is, “I know you’re a little scared and to the other one, I know you want it to go perfectly, but just trust me, it always goes better if you trust me.” And as they relax back, I’ll notice, “Oh, now my heart’s really open, okay. And now this pressure in my forehead is gone and I’m really much more in my body and I’ve got a lot of curiosity. I’m not so afraid anymore. I’m just eager to get to know you guys and talk this way.” And so I’m just checking for those C-words and how much are they embodied? And it’s very practical. You can tell very quickly, am I in self or not, just by checking those kinds of markers.
Abby Wambach:
That’s fascinating. It feels like you’re giving us a key to the kingdom because all of us have access to asking these questions, it’s just whether or not we want to or we choose to. And it doesn’t matter if you even know what parts you have or not. It’s almost like what are the feelings that are coming up and then getting a relationship with those feelings. That’s the thing that feels so profound about this work, to me.
Dick Schwartz:
It’s exactly right. All of it, everything you just said.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
You know Whitman was saying, it’s like, “Do I contradict myself? I contain multitudes.” I knew that shit was true!
Amanda Doyle:
It’s biblical too. Like the Romans, “What I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate I do.”
Dick Schwartz:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s just Saint Paul, man. He’s like, “No bad parts!”
Amanda Doyle:
Right. Exactly.
Dick Schwartz:
“No bad parts.”
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you. So I don’t know how to say thank you for this work. And it’s really helped me. It’s really made a huge difference in my life and I know so many other people’s lives. And I just am not only grateful for your work, but I’m just grateful for your presence and how you are. You’re just very kind and open and lovely and just thanks.
Abby Wambach:
And to take the three of us through-
Glennon Doyle:
Generous.
Abby Wambach:
… brief sessions was very generous and I feel super honored and grateful because I feel like a relief happening. I don’t know, I’m just grateful for your work.
Dick Schwartz:
Well, I’m very grateful to get to know each of you. And it’s not every podcaster that’s willing to be that vulnerable in front of their audience or each other.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, we’re not airing this.
Amanda Doyle:
We just did it for the free session.
Glennon Doyle:
Just joking!
Amanda Doyle:
You’re very hard to get booked with. We’re just killing this episode. But thank you so much.
Dick Schwartz:
If that were true, I’d be still honored.
Glennon Doyle:
Just joking.
Dick Schwartz:
I know it’s not true.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, Pod Squadders, go forth with your parts. Know that inside of yourself there is a self. You don’t have to read any books to find it. You don’t have to go to therapy to find it. You don’t have to have anything to find it. It’s just already there.
Abby Wambach:
Go to the seas.
Glennon Doyle:
Go to the seas. We love you. There are no bad parts, and we will see you next time. Thank you, Dr. Dick Schwartz. This was amazing.