The Sports: The Kind of Embarrassing Psychology of Winning & Losing
March 14, 2024
Glennon Doyle:
Hello. Welcome to We Can-
Abby Wambach:
We Can Hard Do Things.
Glennon Doyle:
We Can Hard Do Things.
Abby Wambach:
We Can Hard Do Things.
Amanda Doyle:
We Can Hardly Do Things.
Glennon Doyle:
We Can Hardly Do things. Oh my God, that is so much righter.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s so good.
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome to We Can Hardly Do Things, and that’s what next season’s going to be called. And I am very, very excited to hear today from this precious Pod Squadder named Naomi. Let’s hear from you, Naomi.
Naomi:
Hi, I’m Naomi. I need y’all’s help. I really need you to help me with the emotions of sports. How do you handle it? How do you get over it? I was never a sports person and a couple of years ago I was like, “Oh, this will be a nice, fun thing to help me unwind and bond with my family.” Yeah, not light, not light. 49ers is my team. I am way more devastated than I feel comfortable being about a ball game in an organization called the NFL, which is actually really very screwed up. And I’m a therapist so I can handle a lot of emotions, and I can’t handle these. I can’t handle these. A lot of other way more important things going on and I am so devastated. Please, please help. I saw the Instagram post of Glennon after I think it was Japan lost in the World Cup, and I feel that way. Please help me. Bye.
Abby Wambach:
Naomi.
Amanda Doyle:
What did she say, “I’m way more devastated than I’m comfortable with”?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
What did she say? Oh my God.
Glennon Doyle:
We can ruin the sports, can’t we, people like Naomi.
Amanda Doyle:
“I’m way more devastated than I feel comfortable being about a ball game.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s what she said.
Glennon Doyle:
What’s your take, y’all?
Abby Wambach:
I mean, obviously sports is my jam. And Naomi, I can relate to feeling the utter devastation, and I like how you worded it, that you aren’t as comfortable being about an actual game.
One of the things that I think is so fascinating about sports, and it’s really why people come to watch sports, I think deep down, is we don’t know what’s going to happen. We just don’t. When we’re watching television shows and we can see the story arc and we have an idea and it’s safe, but with sports, it’s all up in the air. You just never really truly know. And that’s why we come to it, because it’s something that could surprise you. I mean, you’re surprised by this devastation, Naomi.
One of the things that I learned throughout the course of my life as an athlete is the devastation is super telling. I’m the kind of person that hated losing more than I liked winning. For a five-year-old, my competitiveness was probably too much
Amanda Doyle:
For a five-year-old.
Abby Wambach:
But it kind of laid the groundwork for me doing what I did for my job for so long. And being devastated by the 49ers’ loss. It makes sense to me for so many reasons. Because the way women often also watch games, it’s not always about the winning and losing. It’s like you grow attached to these players, the stories.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, Brock Purdy, give me a break with that guy. Everybody wanted him to win because he was making the least amount on the field.
It’s interesting. Why does sports make us feel so many different things? That’s it. It’s not just devastation. It’s also like we’re sad that the season is over. We’re sad that this culmination, this big game, this Super Bowl, happened and there’s a little bit of a let down. Like, “Now what do we do with ourselves and our energy?”
Glennon Doyle:
And there’s also one of the things that I think is really amazing about the sports is that I think it’s wonderful to have a reason to just sit on your couch all day-
Amanda Doyle:
But be doing something.
Glennon Doyle:
… but be doing something.
Amanda Doyle:
We are doing something. Yeah, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And not only are you doing something, you are attached to a collective. So you’re sitting your lazy ass on the couch, but you are part of a movement of life-minded-
Amanda Doyle:
A movement with no movement is what I’m talking about.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. And I’m not saying that a judgmental way. I feel that. It is a very different feeling to sit down in the middle of a Sunday and turn on a movie. That’s like, “Oh, we’ve given up. We have given up.” Nope. Is there any football on? Is there any whatever on? Now I am contributing in an important way. I am connected. I am part of a whole.
I think there are those of us who are invited into the sports by partners, by friends, by people we love. And those people have practiced longer turning it on and off. This is what’s upsetting to me. You invited me into this world. So I sit with Abby and she’s like, “Here’s the World Cup. Here’s the things, here’s the people.” She’s talking to me about the players, she’s… Then everyone tries their hardest. We are watching people lay every bit of themselves on the line, which we do not see ever.
Amanda Doyle:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
No. That’s why concerts move us. That’s why it’s somebody being so vulnerable that they’re trying their hardest, that’s not something we see all the time, and we resonate with it. And when people who are trying their hardest then lose and are laid out on the field and then our partners go, “All right, so what’s for lunch? Click.” And we’re like-
Amanda Doyle:
Or, “Good night.” That’s the worst. I’m like, “Good night? I’m not sleeping for four hours.” Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Where’s the debrief? Where’s the support group for afterwards?
Amanda Doyle:
We have no resolution. We have no resolution.
Glennon Doyle:
We’re not going to process anything, we’re just going to turn the channel? We feel abandoned.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, I think that what you were just saying though, I think that that’s the key. And I’ve talked to you a little bit about this because I think it’s the real reason why people like watching sport is because you are seeing a bunch of people caring the most about what is happening. Them opening themselves up, it’s like they rip their hearts open and they have a big sign on their heart that say, “I care about this the most and I’m going to do everything I possibly can to have the best outcome that I can.”
Now, Naomi, I think that what you’re feeling is also the same. You’re feeling a little bit of a vulnerability hangover because you were saying, “I care the most about the 49ers winning this game.” And when they don’t, you feel a little embarrassed. You feel a little vulnerable. No, listen.
Glennon Doyle:
Totally. Totally.
Abby Wambach:
This is the way that I felt when I was on the field playing, showing the world that I cared the most. And then when we lost, I was the most embarrassed because I was like, “I care the most. I believe we can do this.”
Amanda Doyle:
“Please come watch me. I swear we’re going to win.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And then it’s awkward.
Abby Wambach:
And then it’s like, “Just kidding. I care the most and also I didn’t follow through.”
Glennon Doyle:
But why? Because it’s-
Amanda Doyle:
I’ll tell you why.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, because I want to know why does a smart person like Naomi or me or any of us actually care? That’s what’s embarrassing. There’s stuff going on in the news that if we all got behind and cared the most about, but why is this thing what we all show up for in the stands and bleed burgundy and gold? Is it tribalism?
Amanda Doyle:
Sort of.
Glennon Doyle:
I want you to explain to me, Sister, because I know you’ve done probably some research about this. What I’m going to admit to the Pod Squad right now is that I go see my daughter play the soccer. Okay?
Amanda Doyle:
Oh God, what?
Glennon Doyle:
I’m okay with winning and losing now. I’m cool. I have done my breathing exercises. I understand that this is a game that we’re playing.
When someone knocks down my daughter…
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
The other day in the stands… Now please understand that in the stands of our small school, I’m still Glennon, Abby’s still Abby. So Abby is a Olympian soccer player. This is her wife. We are about love and understanding and We Can Do Hard Things, etc. etc. I stood up in the stands the other day and started screaming as loud as I could at the referee who was another mother.
Amanda Doyle:
No. No!
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, because this child was knocking my child over and no one was doing anything about it. So I had to say things that I’ve heard other people say like, “Wake up, ref!” But I’m screaming that. No one’s yelling around me. This is a dignified group of people and-
Amanda Doyle:
Abby, was it-
Abby Wambach:
Embarrassing? Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
… a foul, like it should have been called.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, look, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. Amma got knocked over and Glennon stands up like the most mama bear moment in the world. I mean, Amma’s in high school. She’s not like 10. She’s almost 16. These are high schoolers.
Amanda Doyle:
She understands that she’s going to get knocked down in the games.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, it’s part of the game. And Glennon stands up and she’s just like, “Hey! That’s a foul! What are you looking at, ref?”
Glennon Doyle:
Standing up, screaming, running back and forth.
Abby Wambach:
I’m like pulling Glennon’s clothes and I’m like, “Sit down! What are you doing?” This is embarrassing to all of us, not just Amma, but me and yourself.
Amanda Doyle:
Right. You are off-branded right now.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Absolutely. And you can imagine how well that went, “Sit down, you’re embarrassing me.” Well, now I’ve got a double down, triple down. Whatever I’m doing, I can’t admit that this is wrong now.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
What I’m saying is we can lose ourselves. We can lose ourselves.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes, we do.
Glennon Doyle:
Also people who have never been in a sport, it is very hard for me to understand bodies getting strewn around as if it’s okay. Whatever my reptilian brain is just sees my daughter being thrown to the ground and the amygdala or whatever-
Abby Wambach:
Amygdala.
Glennon Doyle:
… is not quick enough to say, “This is okay, this is what we signed up for.” All I know is I have to fight for my daughter.
Amanda Doyle:
Right. Danger! Fire! Danger!
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It’s really something.
Amanda Doyle:
So that I feel like is a slightly separate conversation. I think that has to do with survival, maternal instinct and general bad manners.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Okay. Got it.
Amanda Doyle:
But Abby, it’s funny when you were talking about how we don’t know what’s going to happen, and then you were like, “Why do we all sit around and just watch this? What is the deal? Why this thing of all things?”
It’s called the optimal level of chaos. Watching sports is the perfect blend of predictability and chance, and that’s what we crave. Because if it was totally predictable, if it was just like, “Well, these players have these stats and they are better and these players have this stats and they are less good,” and then it would be too predictable that this team would always win, we would never watch. But the predictability is important because that’s what keeps us invested. That’s what keeps the players working hard. That’s what keeps it sexy and interesting. But there’s always the chance piece that you never know what’s going to happen. And so that is for our minds, we love that the most, the optimal-
Glennon Doyle:
So that makes me forgive us. That makes me forgive us. That’s why we can’t put the same amount of energy behind things happening on the news, because that’s too outside the box of optimal. It’s too risky. It’s too unknown. This is a little box of safety where we can pour ourselves out because no matter what, probably no one’s going to die. The risk is low, the stakes are lower.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, I don’t know anything about that. I just know that we crave that mix of predictability and chance. That’s why March Madness, people are obsessed with, there’s the chance of the Cinderella story. Our minds and hearts want that, but it’s also a major belonging thing.
So they did studies and they found out that for fans, being identified with a favorite team is more important than being identified with their work, with their social group, and is as or more important to them than being identified with their religion, for these super fan people. And in this culture where scientists call them totems, if you are like, “I am a Bears fan. I am a Cowboys fan. I’m whatever,” these are totems, which are signified points of connection for communities.
And it’s ritual. It’s the pregame, it’s the Sunday, this is what we do. It’s replacing what religion served for so long in cultures where religiosity continues to decline. It’s when you think of those markers: “We belong. We are connected. We have this ritualized process that we go through and is predictable and come together on and we belong to each other.”
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s really crazy. So that’s bringing us. But the upset thing, I just feel Naomi so much on that because it doesn’t feel like it makes sense. If you’re new to a sport, why do you care? And it feels kind of embarrassing, honestly, to care that much.
Glennon Doyle:
Of course.
Amanda Doyle:
And I feel this way with my kids’ games. I know there’s a million things I want them to learn in sports, and at least half of them require them to lose in order to learn those things.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
I want them to know how to climb back when everyone’s counted them out. I want them to learn how to keep their heart in it, even when they’re definitely not going to win. I want them to tune out the world and tune into themselves. I want them to lose gracefully. I want them to be happy for their friends, even when they’re sad for themselves. All of these things that require them to lose. And I’m still so sad every time they lose.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
So they did these studies and I find these absolutely hilarious. So when your team loses, testosterone drops, your brain produces cortisol. When you lose, meaning the team that you wanted to win, you’re just a fan, your own testosterone drops, your own cortisol increases, and you produce less serotonin, which can lead to anger and depression. It’s like a mini depression. It’s real.
But when you win, you release dopamine. And listen to this, they did studies of fans. So they had fans watch a game and then they studied the fan losers and the fan winners and the fans who saw their team win believed they could do much better on totally unrelated tasks like solving puzzles and shooting darts.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, that’s amazing.
Amanda Doyle:
But fans who saw their team lose, believed that they would do crappy on solving puzzles and shooting darts. And this is even better. They did a study of the same losing and winning and they found that… so this was about whether a desirable person would want to go out with them. The losing fans said the person was unlikely to want to go out with them, and the winning fans thought the person would absolutely go out with them.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, that is amazing.
Amanda Doyle:
Just based on whether they’re team won or lost. It’s like we are attributing to ourselves the glory or the defeat of the team, and we’re like, “We are either a real shit bag right now,” me, myself, or, “I am so good-looking and so good at darts just because my team won.” It’s wild.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s wild.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a real thing.
Glennon Doyle:
And can be taken to dangerous levels. I mean, I believe in England, they have a much higher rate of violence in the home after losses because men feel those things. They feel that power has been taken from them. I mean, there’s darkness to this too.
On the other side, it makes me feel a little bit like if we are wired for this thing where we desperately need a shared purpose and we desperately need community, we know that, people need purpose, they need community, maybe sports isn’t that bad of a thing that we can get those things from, because it’s better than religion. When you think about the Eagles coaches aren’t going to go, “Okay, you guys, for real, we need to invade this other place in the name of our tribalism and religion.” Religion can get us in a lot of violence and trouble. So maybe this is a good way, a less dangerous way to indulge our need for shared purpose and community than other versions of tribalism
Amanda Doyle:
We’ve always had theater, we’ve always had arts. And Brian Phillips, who’s a sports writer, says that, “Sport is music or fiction or film in that for predetermined duration, it asks you to give control over your emotions, to feel what it makes you feel.” Which, that is the vulnerability.
I don’t know how I’m going to feel. I’m sitting down reading this book, watching this play or watching a game, and I am giving over whatever I’m going to feel to whatever happens right here.
Glennon Doyle:
Interesting. It’s a surrender.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s an exercise in that which it must be part of the human condition to require that or else why would we have had art and theater and all of that for so long? Is that a cleansing that we do where we’re like, “We will be vulnerable and submit to this thing”?
Abby Wambach:
I would say-
Glennon Doyle:
Inside of two hours, but that’s it.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. But I would say that sports is the personification of the arts.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay, say more about that.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. One time somebody said to me, “You’re an entertainer,” because I was just like, “Oh, no, I’m an athlete.” They’re like, “No, you’re an entertainer. You go out and people choose to leave their jobs, to leave their families or bring their families or spend their resources on coming to watch you. That is the crux of it. You are out there to entertain them. And so you are an artist out there, creating an environment where people are entertained.”
And that changed my mindset. This is midway through my career, and I was like, “Whoa.” For me, it’s not just about the functionality of a play, of a technique, of a goal. It’s like we’re actually all here creating something out of literally nothing.
Amanda Doyle:
Cool.
Abby Wambach:
And there is an energy component to it all. There’s a woo-woo-ness to it all that I don’t think it’s talked enough about in sport watching and participating in viewing sports.
Because as an athlete, this is when I started to really tap into it midway through my career, really tapping into this idea that there was something way bigger than the actual game itself happening. Because when that many people are putting their eyes on you, watching you do this thing, and then it builds up, the pressure and the intensity builds up throughout the course of a game, there are certain people, I would argue that I tapped into this different dimension of an energy that it was like, A, I’m going to rip my chest open and be the most vulnerable I possibly could and play with all of my emotion, my rage, my joy, my love, whatever. And then when the intensity got so high, there were some players that could tap into this other energy that it was like we were all willing, this moment, to be born out of nothing. And that is what I think people are in to watching sports for is that feeling, that moment, that energy, and then watching somebody, what somebody would say is doing a superhuman thing.
When I scored that goal that Megan crossed against Brazil in the waning seconds, I was not doing that. I am clear that, yes, my body was a vehicle for it, but there was way more shit going on in that moment than I can understand. I mean, in fact, I don’t remember the ball going in the goal. It was like this moment, blackout, and it’s all too much, but it was so much muchness and everybody was a part of it.
So that is what I think brings people in. And I think that is what that organized chaos, people are hoping for one of those moments. And it doesn’t happen in every sports game or match or whatever you’re watching, but when the stakes are higher in a very big match, like a Super Bowl or World Cup final or whatever, everybody’s intensity and the energy that they bring watching raises. And so the level of intensity and the amount of that muchness is truer and it’s more palpable and it’s more possible that these big, crazy moments happen.
Amanda Doyle:
There’s a scientific thing for that, Abby. As you’re talking, I’m like, “Oh, that’s what mirror neurons are.” So there are these things in our brain called mirror neurons, and basically their purpose is to allow us to understand points of view outside of our own. And so when people are watching sports that they are invested in, we put ourselves, through our mirror neurons, into the players on the field. We believe that we are experiencing what the folks on the field are experiencing, and it shows up in our bodies. When they test people’s bodies, the fans who are watching, they are releasing adrenaline. Their heart rates, even though they’re sitting there, are rates that are associated with rigorous exercise-
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
… because they’re so connected with these players on the field. We are them. We feel them. Our bodies react as if we are them. And so that, I wonder if that energy, you’re like, “Okay, there’s X number of us on the field, but in this place, there’s thousands of us-
Abby Wambach:
Wow. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
… having the energetic force willing this to happen.”
Abby Wambach:
Millions, millions of people. That makes so much sense to me. I mean, even when I’ve been running at a treadmill watching a sporting event, I actually almost fall off the treadmill because I am on the treadmill pretending I’m the person doing the sport move on the court or on the field. That is for sure what happens. And that is exactly what I feel or what I felt when I was performing, when I was playing.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Is that why you actually feel like… There’s usually a moment in our kids’ games where if it’s not going the way that Abby thinks it should be going, this just happened last week, she stands up and she starts moving to different places in the stands. It feels very serious. It’s not a joke. And my friend Lindsay was sitting with us and she’s like, “Where does Abby keep going?” And I said, “She has to change the energy.” But that doesn’t make it sense.
Amanda Doyle:
Is that a superstition thing, like how John won’t… if their Red Sox are winning, I will just have to pee my pants. I can’t get up and go to the bathroom because it’s moving a position while things are going well?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Is it the superstition-
Glennon Doyle:
[inaudible 00:25:57].Amanda Doyle:
… or is it like do you think you can shake up the energy?
Abby Wambach:
Okay so-
Amanda Doyle:
Or is that the same thing? I don’t know.
Abby Wambach:
Exactly. Who knows what to call it, but it’s like something needs to change. Some energy needs to change on the field.
Abby Wambach:
You need to do your part, and that includes moving around.
Abby Wambach:
I’m telling you, because as an athlete, I knew, I was very aware of all of my surroundings. I think a lot of athletes are really good at walking into a room and being able to get an imprint of what’s happening and not be able to vocalize it. And so I always move towards the goal that Amma’s trying to score on, score on. I move closer to that goal. And I know-
Amanda Doyle:
You’re like, “Over here, Amma!”
Abby Wambach:
Yes, and I know deep down Amma looks over, because this is what I did throughout my career. I was always conscious, very, very aware of where my people were sitting. And if anything changed, I’d have to figure out, “Oh, wait, what’s happening?” And so it’s just something that I do and the weirdest shit happens is like Amma’s team scores within the next two minutes.
Glennon Doyle:
All the time. It always works. I don’t know how to explain it, but we’re just going to let it keep happening because-
Amanda Doyle:
So why don’t you just stand by the goal the whole time?
Abby Wambach:
Because, this is fucking weird and so woo-woo, there is always a need for some sort of energy change and you can’t start somewhere. You have to induce the change with your own personal energy that’s coming off of you, with your own personal idea of what power means, with your own wishing and willing something to happen.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ll say that if you’re not relating to this sports-wise, when I go to a musical, like a theater situation, I am unable to control my emotion. I feel like I am the people on the stage. I am every single person who goes up to sing. I cannot believe how brave they are. And I also I mean, I am keenly aware that I have a job in the audience.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes, yes!
Glennon Doyle:
I mean, do other people-
Amanda Doyle:
I feel that watching every sport. I’m like, “I better do my part,” and sending all my energy. I’m exhausted at the end.
Glennon Doyle:
And sometimes I look around the audience and I’m like, “Did your parents not raise you right? Do you understand that we are here, that this is a collective job that every person who comes on that stage, I’m going to beam at them as if I have Christ consciousness, whatever the fuck that is.”
Amanda Doyle:
That is right. That is right. Every people passively just viewing something, I’m like, “What are you even doing here?”
Glennon Doyle:
No, we have a job in these seats.
Amanda Doyle:
“You’re contributing nothing. You’re just taking, taking, taking.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. So whatever those mirror neurons are, and then after a play, I just burst out crying.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, after a theater play, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I can’t. It’s just so much. I’ve been so brave. I’ve been-
Amanda Doyle:
You’ve worked your ass off.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ve worked my ass off. We experienced the human tragedy of life together. We did hard things. We were so connected. I just cry and cry. I’m so tired. I’ve been through so much.
So maybe that is something that is same as the sport.
Abby Wambach:
It is.
Glennon Doyle:
People who are watching the sports, and maybe that is your sciencey version of that, the mirror neurons, that’s why it’s so exhausting.
And Naomi, it is a thing. I remember being little and listening to the football games in my van with my dad. He was a football coach, but he would be listening to the professional games and there was this little song that always said, “The thrill of victory, the agony of defeat!”
Amanda Doyle:
“The agony of defeat.”
Glennon Doyle:
And I was little, but I remember thinking, “Agony? Isn’t that a little dramatic?”
Amanda Doyle:
Really, agony?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, Naomi, apparently it’s agony.
Amanda Doyle:
I know, it’s embarrassing, but it feels that bad.
Oh my God. Also, they did the same studies with the winners and the losers. The people who after they won their team a game, the next day they ate healthfully. And the people who lost the next day, they had all sugars and fats.
Abby Wambach:
100%.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow. That’s hilarious.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
It affects what you crave. It affects what you… It’s amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
It is amazing.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s just a real thing. So I think, Naomi, you’re probably just in great mental and physical health, and this is the logical response. And the fact that you’re empathic the fact that you’re so into your emotions, maybe it impacts you more because you’re firing on all cylinders.
Glennon Doyle:
And here’s what I want to say to all the Naomis: if you think for one second that the boys playing the sports make you emotional, Naomi, I’m going to need you to turn on the WNBA. I’m going to need you to turn on the NWSL. If you think that a bunch of men getting together and doing this slays you, oh, Naomi, you don’t even know. Okay? When you watch women, there’s something about the sports that frees us from all the gender cages. So I think that’s why men like to watch the football too, because they can be emotional.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
They’re allowed to care. They’re allowed to cry. They’re allowed to cheer. They’re allowed be vulnerable.
Amanda Doyle:
They’re hugging each other.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, they’re free from all of the rules. Why do you think they’re always patting each other on the ass? All right.
Abby Wambach:
I think that that’s probably why Naomi is struggling with this so much. And she even said it, it’s like she cares so much about this thing that’s so commonly patriarchal, male-dominated.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, okay.
Amanda Doyle:
I know. It’s weird, right?
Glennon Doyle:
It is weird. So take your feelings, take them to the WNBA, forget it. The WNBA and the NWSL make me cry almost like a musical. Because when you watch a bunch of women using their bodies for collective purpose and not to be viewed in the lens that we’re used to, there’s just something that…
I mean, I think that’s why you are such an icon, Abby, because watching a woman just embody full-on strength, vulnerability, trying the hardest, taking it so seriously like it’s life or death, the way the men are allowed to do. Naomi, just trust me. I mean, when we go to Angel City games, when there is also a purpose of that side of it, when you’re all gathered together to watch women who have been sidelined for so long, then you don’t even have to be embarrassed about your passion.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I mean, the other thing about sports that I find really fascinating is that there’s an impermanence to it. It’s this little snapshot, this little fleeting moment that comes and then it goes. And so I think probably what the devastation too is is this longing for that snapshot to stay and last. But I think it’s one of the greatest teachers for me, especially because life is so impermanent. It’s so fast, it happens and then it’s over. And I don’t know, in this weird, bizarre way, it’s like helping me get comfortable with dying.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, it matches life and death. Interesting.
Abby Wambach:
Because it’s such a quick thing and it’s like, “Oh, we have to be really present in the moment.” And losing the presence of that intensity and not having that intensity anymore is sad.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, wow. So it’s not just about the football, it’s not just about the sports or it’s not just about the musical. We miss the presence it brought out in us, the focus. Yeah, I get that.
Amanda Doyle:
Naomi, if it makes you feel any better, you may be temporarily down in the proverbial dumps, which Alice is with you, she cried so hard when the 49ers lost and-
Abby Wambach:
Oh, really?
Amanda Doyle:
… took a lot of comforting. Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Why?
Abby Wambach:
Why does she like the Niners?
Amanda Doyle:
It is unclear.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m surprised. I would think she’d be on the Travis Kelce train.
Amanda Doyle:
No, she was all Niners all day, and it was very, very sad. She stayed up the entire game and just bawled.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. So you’re in good company. And also the good news is you’re going to net out better because fans who identify strongly with a team are less likely to feel lonely or alienated, and they have a higher self-esteem than people who do not identify strongly with a team.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
So get through your momentary in the dumps and just know you’re probably netting out better with your 49ers love than if you didn’t care.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, that’s great.
Naomi:
All right.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. Let’s wrap this up with a Pod Squadder of the Week.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, fun.
Glennon Doyle:
We haven’t had one for so long.
Abby Wambach:
I love the Pod Squad. I really do.
Glennon Doyle:
Me too.
Abby Wambach:
I just want to say that. I love you guys so much. And we see you guys out in the world in the wild, and we couldn’t do this without you, literally.
Glennon Doyle:
I have to tell one thing. So I have this little place where I go to paint because my family doesn’t live there.
Abby Wambach:
It’s a little studio.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And there’s this big window and I have my easel set up in front of this big window, and it’s very close to where people walk by all day. Every single day that I’m painting there, somebody stops on the walkway, looks at me and does heart hands or shows me that they’re doing a paintbrush, like they see I’m painting. These two women stop the other day and they made gestures so I could understand they were saying, “We see you painting. We see you painting.” Okay?
Amanda Doyle:
It was like a… What is that game you played with your family? “Rhymes with…”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, Charades. Charades.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, Charades.
Glennon Doyle:
It was a game of Charades between us, me and the window, them there. They were Pod Squadders for sure. I don’t even have to… I know. You just know. And it’s just so beautiful. And sometimes I’ll see a woman walking by just dripping in babies and pushing a stroller and we’ll make eye contact. And it’s this beautiful moment of like, “Yes, that. Keep pushing the stroller. But soon, paintbrush. Soon-“
Amanda Doyle:
“Soon you’ll be pushing a brush instead of a double stroller.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, We don’t say anything because we’re so far from each other, but it’s this moment. So anyway, yes, we love you, Pod Squad.
Okay, let’s hear from Emily.
Emily:
Hey, team. This is Emily and I just had to call in and tell you that I’m just back from a week with my family and I implemented the thing that Adrienne Maree Brown and her sister were talking about, the sister check-in, as a way of connecting and then protecting against conflict. I did it with my brother and sister. I was like, “Listen, we’re doing this. We’re peeling off, just three of us and we’re chatting for a little bit. We’re checking in about important things that have happened to us since we last saw each other.” And I explained why. And we did it and it was great and it worked. And there was no conflict with my brother and sister, which is maybe unprecedented. So I just wanted to let everyone know that it works. And thank you to the Brown Sisters for the amazing idea. And I think we’ll be doing it moving forward. So thank you for always giving us deep conversations and practical advice. Okay, love you all.
Abby Wambach:
Emily!
Glennon Doyle:
So it’s Autumn Brown. Autumn Brown is Adrienne Marie, Brown’s sister. They are just giving forever the most beautiful advice. We love them so much.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. Emily’s talking about episode 266, How to Love Family When You’re Divided on Beliefs. And that was Adrienne Maree Brown and Autumn Brown who were talking about how they used to have a lot of conflict at any family gathering because it would’ve been so long. And then all three sisters would come and have this preemptive resentment that each other didn’t know what was going on in each other’s lives and weren’t asking them about it or weren’t aware of their sensitivities and triggers because of what happened throughout the year.
So they decided to meet… You’ll have to listen to the whole episode because they give a lot more context. But they would meet at the beginning of the get-together, have their private time together, say, “What are the three most important things that have happened to you this year? Tell us about it” and go around. And that, they noted, made the rest of the time together work a lot better because they knew what was going on in each other’s lives and they had the sensitivities to be aware of things. But listen to 266 because they had a lot more good advice too.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It’s just such a beautiful way of approaching each other because especially in families, all we are is a bunch of stories to each other, old stories. And so when you can figure out a way to apply beginner’s mind to your people, I think it can be the most beautiful thing. Because what I know for sure is the things that we stare at the most are the things we do not see. The people that I think I have pegged, that I think I know the best that I am staring at every day, are the people I am least likely to see in their freshest, newest iteration.
Amanda Doyle:
So true.
Abby Wambach:
God.
Glennon Doyle:
So it is a way of approaching every single person in your family with just fresh beginner’s mind every time, because no one is the same day to day, certainly not year to year. So my God, if we could approach our friends and families in a way that we were like, “Oh, I’m going to start over every time. Who are you? How, what are you?” and see each other freshly.
Abby Wambach:
It releases this pressure. It’s like releasing a pressure valve on how this relationship ought to be or what I should know about you and coming to it with this beginner’s mind just makes it more like, I don’t know, it’s like when you’re kids, you’re like, “Oh, you’re a person. Cool. What happened to you, person?”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, pretend you don’t know each other. Pretend you don’t know each other.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, it’s like Andrea Gibson, I think it was the episode with their partner, Megan Falley, where they were talking about the highest form of love is actually, “I don’t know you.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes!
Abby Wambach:
Oh, man.
Amanda Doyle:
How the presumption and the kind of reduction of someone to, “I know you, I know everything about you,” is supposed to indicate an intimacy, but in fact, it is actually diminishing that person because it’s like you are a magical unicorn of mystery that is always changing. When I come to you with the idea that I don’t know you, I am now curious and interested and want to hear it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, and in awe.
Amanda Doyle:
When I come to you with I know you, I’m-
Abby Wambach:
Judgment!
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a wall. It’s why they talk about beginner’s mind so much. If you look at a tree, your mind goes, “Tree,” and then there’s no awe left. The label of the thing erases the miracle of the thing, every time, the language, the word, the story.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
If you look at a tree and you don’t allow yourself to go, “Tree” and you actually look at it, you could start crying. And that’s how people are. It’s like if we could approach each other without the story, we would cry of awe in each other’s presence.
Abby Wambach:
So good.
Glennon Doyle:
So thank you for that, Emily. Thank you, Autumn and Adrienne, for just always reminding us of that.
Go forth, Pod Squad. See each other without stories.
Abby Wambach:
When you say, “Go forth,” do you feel like a priest?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah? Every time you say it, I think, “She thinks she’s a priest.” It’s so good. “Go forth and be well.”
Amanda Doyle:
The High Priestess of Hard Things. Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
“Go forth and think hard before multiplying.” See you next time, Pod Squad. Bye.
Amanda Doyle:
Bye.