Valentine’s Day: You Must Listen to This–Huge Surprise!
February 13, 2024
Abby Wambach:
Okay, it’s the most lovable time of the year. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things, folks.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God. It is so perfect that you jumped in to do the introduction with all of your excitement because of the topic that we’re talking about today. It’s your baby.
Abby Wambach:
It’s my favorite.
Glennon Doyle:
What is it?
Abby Wambach:
We are talking about Valentine’s Day, the best day of the year.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Abby Wambach:
No, it is not the holidays that you’ve come to think of and love and know. It is the heart holiday, my favorite.
Amanda Doyle:
Have you always loved Valentine’s Day, Abby?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Well, I’ve always loved love, and so this like is the day that I get to express it. And it’s funny because it’s just something that’s in me. I don’t expect anything. Don’t worry, babe, I don’t expect you to go above and beyond. But I love Valentine’s Day. I walk around, and I’m looking for the people who are loved and in love, and back in the day when we used to go to restaurants, it was my favorite time to go to the restaurant, and there was hearts and red everywhere.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you believe this?
Amanda Doyle:
There are two types of people, and we are talking about both of them today, and Abby represents a caricature of one of them. So Valentine’s Day is hilarious because it is-
Glennon Doyle:
It is hilarious.
Amanda Doyle:
… the holiday that people love or they love to hate.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
It is a very fascinating thing. So what does it tell about us, our approach to Valentine’s Day?
Abby Wambach:
Well, for me, it just makes me know when people are in hatred of Valentine’s Day, they’re just not good people. I’m just kidding.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, it’s interesting that you said you love it or you love to hate it. I like that framing because it’s not like you love it or hate. It’s like something about your identity. You’re either attached to yourself as a lover of love, or you’re attached to yourself as a cynic of a love and your belief that everything is just capitalism, right?
Amanda Doyle:
Well, people who love to hate on Valentine’s Day I don’t think would say that they love to hate love. I think that they would say that Valentine’s Day is like this manufactured inauthentic misrepresentation of love, but there is a little thou doth protest too much. If you’re very, very excited to slam on it, then maybe there is a little something else happening.
Abby Wambach:
The way that I think about it is a little bit like your choice in movies, okay? Now hear me out.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
This is a big generalization, but I think that I might be right.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
So there’s a kind of person that can sit down and watch a movie. Sometimes it’s like a rom-com, right?
Amanda Doyle:
Usually it is for you, Abby.
Abby Wambach:
Exactly. I love rom-coms. I love a happy ending. I even love like a sad ending but there’s some sort of love situation that’s happening. And then you have other kinds of movie watchers-
Glennon Doyle:
I know you’re looking right at me for a reason.
Abby Wambach:
… who scoff at any rom-com.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, scoff is a good word, just general disdain and contempt.
Abby Wambach:
When we’re choosing a movie and I’m like, I don’t know, Love Actually, although-
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I love that one, yeah.
Abby Wambach:
… I think you like Love Actually. I mean, listen, The Notebook, get me out of here with The Notebook. One of my favorite movies of all time.
Amanda Doyle:
I’ve never seen The Notebook ever.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God. What do you want? Not what your mom or your dad wants, what do you want? Oh my God, it’s so good. Oh, God, I cried.
Glennon Doyle:
Hey, babe.
Abby Wambach:
I watched it three times.
Glennon Doyle:
If you’re a bird, I’m a bird. That’s all I was going to say.
Abby Wambach:
That’s sweet. So whenever we’re trying to pick a movie, Glennon often scoffs at my movie choices.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m sorry.
Abby Wambach:
Because I think, and correct me if I’m wrong here, you really value your time, and I want to give that to you, and I think that you don’t want to be the kind of person that watches rom-coms.
Glennon Doyle:
No, it’s not it. It’s the same thing as Valentine’s Day. It’s like-
Abby Wambach:
But you don’t want to be the kind of person that watches rom-coms and likes Valentine’s Day, because I think that you look down on those kinds of people maybe.
Glennon Doyle:
No. No. Wrong. Wrong. See, you people think we’re bad. No. Here’s-
Abby Wambach:
I don’t think you’re bad. I just think you’re misguided.
Glennon Doyle:
All right, in our culture-
Amanda Doyle:
Which culture are we talking about right now?
Glennon Doyle:
America.
Amanda Doyle:
In your culture of the two of you?
Glennon Doyle:
America. No, not lesbian culture, not our whatever. In America let’s just say, the Western world. I feel like having a romantic partner that is like a good, solid, healthy bond is like the most over-celebrated, over-emphasized thing in the entire world, over-valued, over-celebrated, all the things, okay? I don’t think that people who are killing it in that area need a day where then they get to celebrate that thing publicly and make everybody else feel worse. It’s like why don’t we just-
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like Men’s History Month?
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. Why don’t in March we just have a Financially-independent Day? Everybody who has lots of money, they just get to post their money on Instagram and be like, “Yay, money. I love money.” Romantically-happy people, I am one of them, we don’t need a day to rub that in everyone else’s face. Do you know what I’m saying?
Amanda Doyle:
I did know what you were saying.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, but I don’t think that that’s what it’s about. I don’t think that Valentine’s Day is about rubbing it in other people’s faces.
Glennon Doyle:
It feels like it is.
Abby Wambach:
I know that you think that. I remember being in relationships before and not feeling the ways and the comfort and the joy that I feel in this marriage and this relationship, and I feel like I celebrate it almost every single day.
Glennon Doyle:
You do.
Abby Wambach:
That’s true.
Glennon Doyle:
You do.
Abby Wambach:
And I feel like why not take that door? That’s the good door. That’s the-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s because you are beautiful, and loving, and embodied, and you know what love is, and that’s like knowing the other person and knowing the other person so much that you’re making little gestures to make that person feel seen and make their life easier. It feels like… Okay, and just let me try to explain this.
Abby Wambach:
I’m going to let you.
Glennon Doyle:
It feels like it’s a check-the-box kind of situation where, okay, it’s February 14th, so I have this partner, so now I’m going to do the little bare minimum thing. That means I’m going to get the box checked on that thing. So I’m going to go get like the freaking-
Abby Wambach:
Chocolates.
Glennon Doyle:
Chocolates. Was there a time when women couldn’t buy their own effing chocolates and so that was supposed to be a big deal?
Abby Wambach:
Yes, actually.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, there was a time when women couldn’t buy their own anything, so yes, the answer to all of that is yes.
Abby Wambach:
We’re still in that time.
Glennon Doyle:
But here’s my point. I can fucking buy chocolates anytime I want. I can buy my own chocolates.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, but-
Amanda Doyle:
Why don’t you celebrate that on your Financial Independence-
Glennon Doyle:
I think I will.
Abby Wambach:
But my point is, you had heterosexual marriages, or a marriage, and relationships before that you felt like maybe it was like this one day that the dude would check off boxes.
Glennon Doyle:
And then I had to act grateful for that thing.
Abby Wambach:
Okay. But then now, you aren’t in one of those marriages, one that-
Glennon Doyle:
But I feel sad for everyone who is. I feel defensive and protective of everyone who is.
Abby Wambach:
Don’t you think that this is an exercise in not letting yourself actually feel happiness and joy for yourself or what you do have? It feels like at every turn, you’re like, “No-“
Glennon Doyle:
Sister and I are like-
Abby Wambach:
“… I’m not going to celebrate that.” You are smart enough to come up with every reason not to celebrate love.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, I believe that, because on Mother’s Day, I feel exactly the same way.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel worried about every single person who is going to watch all the posts. Because guess what? Guess what we don’t need to celebrate? People who have healthy relationships with their mothers. That’s another thing. What the hell? We need to reverse engineer all the holidays and be like, “This Valentine’s Day is for people who never have found romantic love, and it’s their fucking day. And Mother’s Day is Bad Mother’s Day, Absent Mother’s Day.” It’s only for people who are lacking in that area, and everyone else has to shut up.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I mean, you are in it for the person with the least amount of power. That’s like the lens in which you look out at. But what I would say is that you bypass your own joy and your own gratitude and your own ability to, I don’t know, foster the love inside of yourself for you.
Glennon Doyle:
I think that is correct. I think she nailed it.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, I think she did. I think for creative lovers like y’all, it is-
Abby Wambach:
Oh, that’s cool.
Amanda Doyle:
… a sweet little, you know, another place to stumble around into some reveling in your love. That’s great. But for folks who aren’t in as creative relationships, I feel like it’s both too much and not enough. This idea that if you’re not having love expressed and honored throughout the year, this one day of these very cookie-cutter gestures are supposed to be the salve that gets you through.
Abby Wambach:
It’s patronizing, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, it’s patronizing.
Amanda Doyle:
And it’s patronizing as shit. And if you get that, that’s supposed to be the end all be all, but then if you don’t even get that, it’s like there’s a thousand ways to lose Valentine’s Day and the win is ungratifying. There’s no real win of it. And I think cynicism comes out because cynicism is a mistrust of motives, right? That’s what cynicism is.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Thank you. Say that again.
Amanda Doyle:
Cynicism is a mistrust of motives.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
And I think we get cynicism in Valentine’s Day because it feels like the epitome of insincerity. We are supposed to believe that 90% of people woke up on this one day and were like, “You know what I wish to do spontaneously and out of the abundance of my overflowing love for my person? I’m supposed to do this gesture of love.” And then 95% of those people, spontaneously and of their own volition and creativity, decided to do two things, get some roses, get some chocolates, and/or if they’re feeling spendy, go out to a dinner where they have a 15-minute interval with the tables pushed so closely to one another that they’re being cycled in and out on a price-fixed menu, okay? Like that doesn’t feel sincere to us.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Amanda Doyle:
… because it cannot be.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like everyone’s just trying not to fuck up.
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
Doing the things that they’re supposed to do.
Glennon Doyle:
And then you feel angry.
Abby Wambach:
This makes sense to me a little bit more for you two because I would… Sister, I’m going to put you in Glennon’s camp where you’re a little bit anti.
Amanda Doyle:
I think that’s safely-
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m not anti-Valentine.
Abby Wambach:
You’re just meh. You’re mid.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m pro being loving in the way you can all the time.
Abby Wambach:
Okay. But hear me out here. Do you think this has something to do with, first of all, the vulnerability of it and the sincerity?
Glennon Doyle:
I’m not great with sincerity.
Abby Wambach:
Because I think when these gestures come out-
Amanda Doyle:
I’m not great with sincerity? Can we just loop back with that? What do you mean you’re not great with sincerity?
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh. She-
Glennon Doyle:
I’m not great with sincerity. I’m not great with it. I don’t know how to sit with it.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re not great with people trying?
Abby Wambach:
No, her, her trying.
Glennon Doyle:
Just in love, just in love. With friends and my children, I’m great with sincerity. With a romantic person-
Abby Wambach:
It’s something.
Glennon Doyle:
… I’m literally in therapy trying to work on not cracking up when Abby tells me that her feelings are hurt. I can’t not burst into laughter, Sister. It is awful. And now I’m like I don’t even want to laugh, I don’t want my wife’s feelings to be hurt, but then she says the thing, and I’m staring at her, and she’s so vulnerable and precious, and then I think of the fact that I’m not supposed to be laughing, and it’s like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man from Ghostbusters, and so now all I’m trying to do is not laugh. I don’t even know what her feelings are hurt about, and then it just comes. It just comes. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
But you do have an issue with any kind of big gestures or like sincerity, and I do think that-
Glennon Doyle:
Big gestures. I don’t like big gestures.
Abby Wambach:
In the end, it’s like the ability to hold the vulnerability of certain moments that are out of your control.
Glennon Doyle:
Also, I am paranoid about being patronized. And let me just throw this out there, okay? I feel like our culture is like, “Okay, the women are still talking about how they need stuff. They just won’t go dead enough. So here’s what we’re going to do, we’re going to give them this one fucking day, all right? Valentine’s Day. We’ll give them Women’s History Day, whatever the hell we have, and we’ll give them a wedding day.” Why do you think that some women turn into such bridezillas on their wedding day? Because they know it’s the one effing day their whole entire life that anyone has to honor their needs, pay attention to their feelings. The stakes feel so high because it’s not part of our life experience to be centered, celebrated, honored, served.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, but that’s not you.
Glennon Doyle:
All right? There’s no malezillows or whatever they’re called because-
Abby Wambach:
Groomzillows.
Glennon Doyle:
Groomzillows.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, but honey, that isn’t your experience in this marriage.
Glennon Doyle:
I know. I’m just annoyed for everyone.
Abby Wambach:
I understand, but like what that also does is to be annoyed for everyone, it limits your ability to be happy.
Glennon Doyle:
I really do understand what you’re saying, and you keep coming back to this, and that is because you are correct.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s interesting, though, because I wonder how many people… Is it possible to be individually satisfied and then also be skeptical and annoyed of the whole thing?
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, can I be both? Can I be both? Because I do feel happy and in love and also suspicious of the motives-
Abby Wambach:
Not of me.
Glennon Doyle:
… of patriarchy and capitalism.
Abby Wambach:
But that’s not what this is. Your Valentine’s Day is hopefully about me.
Glennon Doyle:
I get you, I get you.
Abby Wambach:
It’s not about the world-
Glennon Doyle:
In part, in part.
Abby Wambach:
… and it’s not about patriarchy. It’s about our experience. And we love each other. We don’t adhere to the world’s rules on patriarchal ideals and all of that.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s true.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, but you’re not talking about fucking Valentine’s Day then.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, thank you. About Valentine’s Day.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, we’re talking about America’s Valentine’s Day. What are you talking about?
Glennon Doyle:
But I am going to say one thing. I feel like this is what my therapist would say right now, so I’m going to throw this in.
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
Because what I will tell you is that Abby is usually right about me. All right? So flagging that in my brain, I think it is easier for me to live in my head about things, and my head, all my head is just a jukebox of complaints about-
Abby Wambach:
The world.
Glennon Doyle:
… the world, okay? That’s comfortable for me. But I think that love, and what you’re saying is, “Can you please have an embodied experience with me?”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
“Can you be in your life, in your body, in your home-“
Abby Wambach:
Yes, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
“… in your marriage, in your whatever?” And that is a little bit trickier for me to drop into my own experience to be embodied instead of intellectualizing everything.
Abby Wambach:
Sure.
Glennon Doyle:
But what I hear you saying is that that is sometimes keeping me from an embodied experience of love, which I think my therapist would agree with.
Abby Wambach:
I agree. And I also think, I’ll just say this, I know you, and it doesn’t hurt my feelings. That’s the good news. I’m not taking on-
Glennon Doyle:
I know you don’t.
Abby Wambach:
I’ll celebrate it, but the truth is, I feel like we’re all-year-long Valentine’s Day peeps, like we just do weird, cute little things for each other a lot.
Glennon Doyle:
What about you, Sissy?
Amanda Doyle:
I feel like when we’re talking about this Valentine’s Day as it’s been constructed and sold, I don’t think it’s working for very many people. On average, Americans spend $24 billion on Valentine’s Day. B, billion dollars. 3 out of 10 Americans go into credit card debt from Valentine’s Day spending, and 43% of them hide that debt from their partner, and 46% of people receive Valentine’s Day gifts they don’t like.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, that’s true.
Amanda Doyle:
This is a model that is not working, okay? We’ve got a third of the people going into debt and then half of those people hiding it from their partners, so like celebrating deceit in the celebration of love, and then the half of people who get the gifts don’t like them. So I just feel like maybe we could take the way of doing it and maybe mix it up a little bit so it’s working for the actual participants in the Valentine’s Day. So I think maybe just trying something a little bit different rather than the rote thing-
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
… is the way-
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
… to do it. Like for me, flowers, never. Never with the flowers.
Glennon Doyle:
Why not?
Amanda Doyle:
I just feel like, okay, here is this thing that one must feign surprise over, which is literally the least surprising thing that anyone could come up with, but then-
Glennon Doyle:
“Aw, thank you.”
Amanda Doyle:
… it’s something else that I get to take care of by cutting the stems, putting them in the water, and then watching them quickly die.
Glennon Doyle:
And finding a vase. Who has a vase just handy?
Amanda Doyle:
Also, don’t worry because I paid for half of these.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
This is what I don’t understand. It’s like Cash App, you know? Like anything other than I’m paying for half of something to watch it slowly die. But that’s me.
Glennon Doyle:
And then I have to give you a thank you for it, and that’s when I really get annoyed. And then like the cards, the cards. “To express my individual love for you, I’m going to give you this poem that some dude at Hallmark wrote at a table to express my particular love to you.” Also, that card will be $7.95.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, but none of us are fucking as good at writing as you guys are, like-
Glennon Doyle:
It’s not about writing. It’s about knowing the person and expressing your particular appreciation for them.
Abby Wambach:
For sure. Of course, that’s such a big element of it. But I also want to acknowledge the people out there in the world who are listening to this that might actually love the idea of Valentine’s Day.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes, let’s talk about them, because I love that for them. I wish that for myself.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, because here’s the thing, there are some people out there that don’t have the daily, weekly, monthly check-ins of love with their partners and that this is the one day that they do get.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
And so I want to acknowledge those that are in relationships like that.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. I would like to know people who are delighted. Is there Valentine’s Day every day practices that people have that really make them… Because really, the truth of Valentine’s Day is I want to feel known and cherished and delighted in, right?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I’ll tell you one time I really did feel that, and this was in, I think I was in high school.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, for fuck’s sake.
Glennon Doyle:
No, listen, it’s not what you think, okay?
Abby Wambach:
I was like, “It wasn’t me?”
Glennon Doyle:
No. And I-
Amanda Doyle:
“The one time in my everlasting life.”
Abby Wambach:
What the hell? I remember early days, our Valentine’s Day was a thing. You’ve quickly forgotten them, but yes.
Glennon Doyle:
I want you to remind me. Can you remind me in a minute? But can I just tell this high school story?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, go ahead.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So I had no boyfriend, and all of my friends had boyfriends at this point. I felt like I feel now about Valentine’s Day, like here’s the day where we go into high school, which is just a little microcosm of culture, and all the people who are already just swimming in luck will celebrate that luck. It’s like, “I know, let’s have a Quarterback Day.” Like you already won, dude, okay?
Abby Wambach:
There’s a reason why that person won. It’s because they are abundance-minded.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God. Oh, here we go, here we go.
Abby Wambach:
I’m telling you-
Amanda Doyle:
Now we really jumped the shark.
Glennon Doyle:
Here we go. That’s what it is, every quarterback in the country is winning because they have an abundance-
Amanda Doyle:
Because Charlie up at the high school has-
Glennon Doyle:
… mindset.
Abby Wambach:
No, because they believe-
Amanda Doyle:
… cultivated his abundance. It’s not that he’s 6’2 and good-looking.
Abby Wambach:
There are people in the world that believe that they want a certain life and they will have a certain life, and that they do things to have that life. I’m not saying that-
Amanda Doyle:
Is Abby bootstrapping us right now?
Abby Wambach:
No. I’m not saying-
Glennon Doyle:
She’s an athlete, she gets to. She knows this shit.
Abby Wambach:
I’m not saying that the football player doesn’t deserve status. What I’m saying is, the people who find themselves in those positions deep down always knew that they were supposed to be in those positions.
Glennon Doyle:
And there’s a reason that people believe that they are, in particular, supposed to be in certain situations, and that’s because people have told them that, and sometimes-
Amanda Doyle:
That’s because they’re good-looking.
Abby Wambach:
And 6’2.
Glennon Doyle:
… and because they’ve watched so many images of other people who have done that thing, and if they happen to look like that person-
Abby Wambach:
I get it.
Glennon Doyle:
… that can really start seeming like self-confidence.
Abby Wambach:
I understand what you’re saying. I just do believe that for the most part, aside from many factors, I do think that we have lives that we believe that we deserve.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s sweet. Can I tell you my Valentine’s Day story?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So I was dreading the day. Well, in high school, and they still do this shit, by the way, they would have a thing where like a week before, you could go in and buy heart things and then have them sent to people’s classrooms. So think about this. You’d be sitting in class, and all day, all you’d be thinking is, “Oh, there’s no way I’m going to get one.” But then every class, somebody would come to the door, hold some little hearts, construction paper hearts, and read the names of the girls in the class who were going to get delivered the hearts, which, of course, were the same girls in every single thing.
Amanda Doyle:
Always Susie.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s always fucking Susie. And by the way, this is what Valentine’s Day still feels like, right? For a lot of people. Like Susie, we already know Susie won. Susie’s dating the quarterback, okay? Anyway, the point is-
Abby Wambach:
Because she believed that she deserved the quarterback.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, fuck.
Amanda Doyle:
She believed she could, so she did.
Glennon Doyle:
She believed she could, so she did. Anyway. Yes, baby, you’re right, Susie just had that something special inside that you’re born with or not.
Amanda Doyle:
Susie has been manifesting since she was two.
Abby Wambach:
Maybe my thought and my theory does not work all the way through.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t think anything is totally true, totally not. I appreciate your thought, and I do think that there’s some of that that feels true, but there’s a reason why I as a child did not think that I could be a quarterback, right? And that’s because a lot of reasons.
Abby Wambach:
But you did believe that you could be a writer.
Glennon Doyle:
I didn’t see.
Abby Wambach:
But you believed that you could be a writer.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That’s because in the mental hospital, they taught me to write down my feelings, and if you think I’m joking, I’m not. That’s exactly how I learned I could be a writer.
Amanda Doyle:
What happened in school? Tell us. Jesus.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, tell us. Dying to know.
Glennon Doyle:
So I’m sitting in class just like pissed off at Susie, right? This is where it starts.
Abby Wambach:
Susie.
Glennon Doyle:
Knock on the door, here comes the little person from student government who’s going to pass out the Susie hearts. But lo and behold, it is not. It is the secretary, and she is holding flowers. So this is big time, big time, yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, somebody stepped up their game from the construction paper to flowers.
Glennon Doyle:
So I’m like, “Oh God, here we go.”
Abby Wambach:
Fucking Susie.
Glennon Doyle:
The secretary starts walking towards my place in the classroom, and I’m like, “What is happening? What is going on? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.” So I’m starting to sweat. Flowers are for me, and I can’t even explain to you how strange this is. This is very strange, to the point where I’m nervous, because I’m like, “Oh my God, if I touch that card, it’s going to show the people in the classroom that I actually believe this could be for me.” Do you know what I’m saying? Like that’s too vulnerable.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God.
Glennon Doyle:
So I just sit there for a while, and then I open the card, and it says, “From your secret admirer.”
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God.
Glennon Doyle:
And I’m like, “What?” I don’t know, like I don’t have a clear memory of how long it took me to figure out that my dad had sent those flowers, but I don’t think that he told me right away. I don’t really know exactly. I remember spending at least a short amount of time feeling like perhaps I had a secret admirer.
Abby Wambach:
Of course. I mean, I would have also deduced that.
Glennon Doyle:
But here, the reason why I think that that was the most beautiful, that’s why, hello, it’s not really about the flowers, it’s not about the thing, because those flowers meant everything, and I don’t remember what the flowers looked like, because somebody had thought about me and been like, “Oh, she’s going to have a hard day for this reason, and this is the thing that she will need to change her experience.” And the intention that goes behind lots of these flowers, right? Like the equivalent Valentine’s Day of that would be like a partner thinking, “What is going on in her life right now? What is her emotional state right now? And what is the one thing that would sweep in in a moment of this day and make her feel so seen, so known, and so loved that her heart would open a little bit and she would feel like somebody was looking out for her?” And that is not what happens when somebody picks up flowers on the way home. It’s like, “I’m trying not to get in trouble,” not like, “I’m trying to make my partner feel seen and known and loved.”
Abby Wambach:
I love it. I think that that’s completely correct. And that is so sweet of your dad.
Glennon Doyle:
I know.
Amanda Doyle:
And it’s the public claiming, too.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s what it is, too. Because I think as cynical as we can be about it ourselves, it doesn’t help if the other person is like, “I also agree, that’s total bullshit.” It’s not like that helps us. It’s the idea of like, “I am going to do something public that says that even if all of this is ridiculous, and made up, and silly, and wasteful, you’re worth wasting on, and I want you to be publicly celebrated.” There’s something about that piece of it, too.
Abby Wambach:
And I think that that’s why you like me, because I just give zero shits about what people think of me-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s true.
Abby Wambach:
… in terms of, what is it called, my gestures that I like to make, because I like to be like, “Glennon Doyle is my wife,” for whatever reason. It’s probably my wounds and insecurities. But I love telling people that you’re my wife, and I don’t know, it’s just like this day that I get to do it publicly without any kind of need for feeling of shame.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s sweet.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay, so if you are-
Glennon Doyle:
Before you move on, Sissy.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah?
Glennon Doyle:
I want to know about you and what Valentine’s Day actually is like for you, like what are you expecting, what will happen, what do you wish were different. Talk about you. We just need the heterosexual experience.
Amanda Doyle:
I think that both John and I are not big holiday people. Like there’s this whole thread going around right now where women are like, “When I say I don’t give a shit about Valentine’s Day, I don’t want to be psychoanalyzed about that. I really don’t give a shit about Valentine’s Day. Don’t try to interpret me trying to be defensive of my deep wound of wanting Valentine’s Day. I just don’t.”
Glennon Doyle:
Because that’s patronizing, too.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, exactly. So I mean, I think that what I love about Valentine’s Day, like John will often write me a note that says something real. And I really love the kid part of it. We’re still at the age where they all bring things to school and give things to each other.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s sweet.
Amanda Doyle:
I really love that. And they get to like write notes to their whole class, which I incidentally learned was part of Hallmark’s strategic plan to make it a competition at schools as to how many Valentines you could get instead of getting one special one from someone to sell more cards-
Glennon Doyle:
Mother.
Amanda Doyle:
… which then I felt a little differently about my excitement about the school classrooms.
Glennon Doyle:
See? Do you see what I’m saying?
Abby Wambach:
I hear what you’re saying.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you.
Abby Wambach:
And I think I’m also correct.
Glennon Doyle:
No, I know, but you heard that. That is…
Amanda Doyle:
Go ahead, which is unfortunate.
Glennon Doyle:
But I do-
Amanda Doyle:
Sponsored by Hallmark. We can do hard things.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, yeah.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
I think it’s a cool time to do something unexpected. I just think unexpected is more interesting. And so I like to think about somebody who is important to us and our family and who we love who we maybe don’t usually think about and then doing something for them-
Glennon Doyle:
I love that.
Amanda Doyle:
… because it feels like unexpected and something that might actually delight instead of feel obligatory.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, unexpected. Yeah. That’s what’s annoying about it, is the expectedness. You’re saying feigning surprise about the flowers even though it’s the day that it’s supposed to happen, it’s the easiest thing to checkbox, and then you pretend that it’s unexpected.
Amanda Doyle:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t like the pretending.
Abby Wambach:
What if we just do it the day before Valentine’s Day?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, that’s interesting. You’ve got to think that these holidays, okay, so like holy days. That’s the concept behind a holiday, is it was a holy day, right?
Abby Wambach:
Are you serious?
Glennon Doyle:
I mean, yeah, I think so. Holy days, holidays. Holidays. Right?
Abby Wambach:
I mean, it makes sense. I just have never heard that.
Glennon Doyle:
I believe that there’s something beautiful and true to be celebrated for each one of them. There’s a kernel of truth, right?
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm.
Glennon Doyle:
So there’s a kernel of truth about Mother’s Day, right? Of course, this force that makes the world go round, that is nurturing, that is… There’s a way. We have a friend who told us that our other friend, Sarah, this woman who had been trying to have a baby, and had tried for so long, and there was so much grief and so much pain, and for Mother’s Day one year, our other friend sent her this huge bouquet of flowers listing every single mothering energy that this woman had offered to this other person and in the world. It had happened years ago, and our friend still talks about it as like the most amazing gesture. And that’s because to me, it was like that person took the kernel of truth behind that holy day and let it swish around in their heart and their mind enough to have an offering come out that was tied to the actual kernel of truth.
Abby Wambach:
So beautiful.
Glennon Doyle:
Right? Not the check-the-box, not the version of it that has been morphed with capitalism. If you could remove that part of it, that obligatory, unthinking part of Valentine’s Day, and sit with the power of what love is and what it’s meant in your life, let it swish around, and then have some sort of offering to someone that maybe is not the most expected person, then it would feel true and beautiful.
Amanda Doyle:
Agreed, agreed. And if you’re also having this, you were talking about that bell hooks quote the other day about when she said, “One of the best guides to how to be self-loving is to give ourselves the love we are often dreaming about receiving from others.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Can you say it one more time, just slowly?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. “One of the best guides to how to be self-loving is to give ourselves the love that we are often dreaming about receiving from others.” And maybe that comes into play. It’s sometimes about this day where if you, it’s kind of like the birthday conversation we’re having, if you have these dreams or yearnings that there’s going to be this offering of love that is what you need to receive and then you don’t get it, then it feels like this double letdown. But maybe there’s a way to think about in some ways for yourself and then in some ways for even your friends or the people that you love. You might be best-positioned even maybe more than their partner to know what is the way that they would dream about receiving that, and like could you do it for yourself and then one other person? Why does it just always have to be that one person?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Why can’t it be just anybody?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Where did Valentine’s Day come from?
Glennon Doyle:
My answer is heaven.
Abby Wambach:
Or hell.
Glennon Doyle:
Or hell, depending on who you are.
Amanda Doyle:
The short answer is that it is not clear which of these three St. Valentine martyrs, Christian martyrs it was named for, but there was like an ancient Pagan ritual that was very scandalous, and sexy, and violent, and crazy, and then it was replaced very conveniently. It was at the same time period as current Valentine’s Day is. It was replaced with St. Valentine’s Day in a way to eliminate the pagan rituals that were happening at the time. And so one of the Valentine’s dudes that was killed, the soldiers weren’t supposed to be getting married because they thought it made them less strong, and so that Valentine was marrying them in secret, letting them get married in secret, and then was incarcerated and killed for it. So that’s one of the three that it could have been. So that’s the idea of believing in love and whatever.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t think we should underemphasize the importance of that bell hooks moment you just had.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Because I think I could get into Valentine’s Day if it were something where we figured out what we wish someone else were going to do for us and then we just freaking did it ourselves. So when we imagine what all of these other millions of happy couples are doing in their homes…
Abby Wambach:
I mean, you say it like you’re not a happy couple, though.
Glennon Doyle:
True.
Abby Wambach:
It’s the weirdest thing when I hear you talk about this because it’s as if you’re not one of them.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t know what to say about that.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s true, but we’re also speaking for the pod squad, and statistically, that’s true.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t really think of things that way. I think of things widely.
Abby Wambach:
I know, I know. In there, it might lie the problem.
Glennon Doyle:
Is it a problem, or am I just looking out for anti-Susies everywhere? There’s only one Susie in every high school. There’s 4,000 not-Susies. So I don’t think it’s weird to think from the perspective of the not-Susie.
Abby Wambach:
No, I don’t think that it’s weird at all, but in terms of being embodied, the thing that you’re trying to work on, it feels like this could be an exercise to work on embodiment.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I hear that, I hear that, I hear that. But just saying like if we were to think of what we imagine we would be getting on Valentine’s Day or we should be getting, and then that thing, what is it? Is it rest? Is it delight? Is it-
Abby Wambach:
What would be yours?
Glennon Doyle:
… delicious food? Is it-
Amanda Doyle:
Words.
Glennon Doyle:
… words of affirmation, whatever those things are. It sounds cheesy at first. I think we’re resistant to it because it feels like it wouldn’t work, or my experience, there is something beautiful that happens when we just gather up our little vulnerable courage and say, “I’m just going to think about that thing that I really want and find a way to give it to myself.”
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
And just to see how that feels in my body. “I desperately need to rest. I’m going to find a time in the middle of the day on Valentine’s Day to take a nap,” and like just figure out how that feels in my body to identify a need, not wait for it to come to the door. And by the way, for people who have a couple, a partner who’s going to bring them the flowers, you probably have to do that also.
Abby Wambach:
Wait, what do you mean?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, because the check-the-box gift is usually not the thing that makes you feel seen and loved.
Abby Wambach:
Right. You’re going to have to do that on top of getting the check-the-box gift.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. So I would actually love to not dismiss that and try to see if there… I will think about it and do something for myself, but I would love it if the three of us would do that, and if the pod squad would just take a moment to think about what is the thing they are most likely to feel seen and loved by when they receive it, and to try to give that to themselves and tell us the story of that, right? What would be the name for that? I don’t know. Just like claiming Valentine’s Day as a time when you actually are going to get the love that you need.
Abby Wambach:
You’re right.
Glennon Doyle:
Because that’s actually in your control sometimes.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I think that that’s interesting, and I also think that we can have these conversations with our partners.
Glennon Doyle:
Totally. Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. You could be like, “I’ve been thinking about it, and instead of going to dinner, I really want to take a nap after school, and then I was thinking we could watch this movie.” You can have those conversations.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so we have something that’s about to happen that is like the most amazing thing that maybe has ever happened on this pod, so just hold tight for that. Do either of you, before we move on from that, know what that thing would be that you would give yourself that you would hope somebody else would give you? Because Sister, when you imagine what could John do that you would be so unexpectedly thrilled, loved by because it would show that he knew you so well, what would that thing be?
Amanda Doyle:
I think I am always just over the moon for some kind of body work situation, massage, or acupuncture, or something that’s just like lay down and let someone do this. Planning that into a day, like, “You have an appointment at 1:00 at this thing. Go do it,” that for me is always like the height of happiness.
Glennon Doyle:
I love that. And might I add a level two to that? If you are a partner whose other partner carries most of the mental load of the family, and you walk in and say, “I love you, and I want you to feel seen and loved, and so I’m sending you to this appointment,” then what also has to happen during that time is the other partner, in order to truly make this a love offering, has to have thought through what else needs to happen in that hour or two hours to keep the family flowing, doing the things that the other partner would be doing during that time.
Abby Wambach:
Before and after.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. So if you just let the person go and then the person is thinking the whole time that when they come back, there’s going to be a shitshow, nothing’s going to be done, the homework’s not going to be done, the dinner’s not going to be planned, then that is not a break, right? That pisses me off. Like Mother’s Day, great, you send your person away for two hours, but then they have to double down when they get home, so it’s not a gift. Think through the whole day. Think through, and by the way, this is what should be happening every day, right? This is annoying, that it’s just Valentine’s Day, but it’s a good start. So if you’re going to give your partner a gift, also think through all the other things that that person would be thinking, worrying about, carrying mentally for that time and present what will be done during that time where the person’s gone.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. So that they can actually check out during the massage or whatever.
Glennon Doyle:
Will the dishes be… Will the laundry continue? Will Johnny get to his birthday party? Will this be… You know, all the 10 things that that person would have done in that two hours and nail all of them.
Abby Wambach:
What would you like? What would you do for yourself?
Glennon Doyle:
I really like times when our children feel… And then I’m going to the kids, I’m so sorry. But I do like times when our children feel obligated by their Gregorian calendar to hang out with me and be extra nice, and be extra present, and give me stuff. I like that because I know that they love me, but I think it has to be like they have to be ashamed to not do things.
Amanda Doyle:
That makes sense because that’s the area where you probably feel like the least funneled through.
Abby Wambach:
That’s really interesting. So, okay.
Glennon Doyle:
I like to be appreciated.
Abby Wambach:
So like you would prefer-
Glennon Doyle:
Mandatorily, like-
Abby Wambach:
You would prefer Valentine’s Day from the kids than from your romantic partner? Like that would be your preference?
Glennon Doyle:
Maybe.
Abby Wambach:
That’s interesting. And I get it, like I totally understand that.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
What about you, Abby?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, so we don’t go out to dinner very often, and it’s my favorite thing, and so what I would want is to take myself to like the nicest dinner, not like just down the street.
Amanda Doyle:
By yourself?
Abby Wambach:
No. Ew. No. I would want-
Amanda Doyle:
Ew.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, I’ve done it, but I would want to go to a place that’s super curated menu, super weird items, but they all taste good. I just like going out to dinner.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, okay. All right, great.
Abby Wambach:
But not all the time. Just like once a year for Valentine’s Day, like let’s do it. That’s what I would give myself.
Glennon Doyle:
Love it. Okay, great. All right, now-
Abby Wambach:
Prepare yourself.
Glennon Doyle:
… prepare yourself for what’s about to happen. Sister, would you like to set this up?
Amanda Doyle:
I would just like to say that be you a cynic or a lover like Abby, at the end of the day, we have come to what Glennon has called the kernel of the truthiest truth about this, which is that love exists and love is the reason the world goes around. And in this community of pod squadders, we have a vast amount of love for each other and then pockets of beautiful love springing up all the days long. So we have heard from our dear pod squadder friend Erika, who has called in and invited the pod squad to be part of a very special happening today, and you, in your lovey lovey hearts, get to be part of it right now.
Abby Wambach:
Do not turn off. This is the thing that you want to be listening to, I’m telling you.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. I’m ready. Oh my God.
Erika:
Hi, Glennon, Abby, and Amanda. My name is Erika. My pronouns are she/her. Before I ask my question, I just want to say that I love y’all so much. I’ve listened to dozens and dozens of your podcasts, and my girlfriend Juju has listened to hundreds. In fact, according to her Spotify Wrapped this year, she’s in your top 9% of listeners. You three have helped us immensely navigating our lives as women, as recently out lesbians from conservative communities, and as people desperate to learn how to love ourselves and the world better. Thank you.
So in a surprising turn of events, my question today is actually not for y’all, but for my girlfriend, Juju. But I should probably give a little context first. Glennon, in Untamed, you ask what is the truest, most beautiful story I can imagine from my life. Well, my most beautiful story starts and ends with Juju. I didn’t believe in love at first sight until my eyes arrived on her, and I haven’t looked away since. From the very start, I was hers. From the very start, it was both of us, both condemned by the communities that raised us, but we both went to accept ourselves anyway, both of us with our love for writing stories, and studying theology, and playing all the sports we possibly can, both of us constantly yearning for a more just world.
Juju, you are the greatest blessing. I love everything about you, from how you belt Kacey Musgraves in the car, to your contagious love for the underdog, your incomparable goofy dance moves. You easily continue to fill out the ever-growing scroll that lists all the things I love about you. One of my favorites I wrote back in 2021, it reads, “I love holding your hands, walking side by side, heading somewhere together.” Juju, I want to go somewhere with you, anywhere, as long as we are together. So finally, my question is, Juju, beyond my wildest dreams, girl, will you marry me?
Abby Wambach:
What? I mean, I’m like-
Amanda Doyle:
I take it all back. I love love. I love love. I take it all back now.
Abby Wambach:
“Beyond my wildest dreams, girl.”
Amanda Doyle:
“Juju, I want to go somewhere with you, anywhere.” Get the hell out of here, Erika. That was beautiful. Oh, Juju.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh, we have a proposal.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, Erika, yes.
Abby Wambach:
We say yes.
Glennon Doyle:
We do.
Amanda Doyle:
We do.
Okay, that’s a very big deal.
Glennon Doyle:
That was so beautiful. I just can’t believe that those two… I mean, obviously, based on that letter, like how beautiful are those two human beings, and I can’t believe that they wanted to do that here.
Amanda Doyle:
I know, I know. So we wrote to Erika and said, “You sent us the most beautiful thing. Do you really want to do this on our show?”
Glennon Doyle:
“Are you sure?”
Amanda Doyle:
She said, “Yes. That’s why I sent it.” So we have been plotting with Erika for a while, and now it’s in Juju’s hands.
Abby Wambach:
Okay, hold on. I just want to talk about this for a second because Erika calls in, leaves a voicemail, and she’s like, “Hope they get it. Hope they get the voicemail,” and then she hears from us, and she’s like, “They got it.” So Juju’s going to be listening to our podcast.
Glennon Doyle:
Right now, she just did.
Amanda Doyle:
Right now, right now as you’re talking.
Glennon Doyle:
She just did, babe. She just did.
Amanda Doyle:
Juju has just listened to us.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Glennon Doyle:
We’re like in Inception right now. She’s listening to us right now as we talk.
Abby Wambach:
Do you think she said yes?
Glennon Doyle:
I do.
Okay, here’s what I just want to say about this, because I feel like we are taking the kernel and reclaiming it. Because the reason why this is so moving to me is the whole story about feeling condemned in their communities, and finding each other, and feeling that love thing which just transcends all the freaking rules and claiming it is like the original Valentine’s Day, right? It’s like being told you can’t get married, being told you can’t, it’ll make you weaker, being told all these things, and then being the renegade little saint who’s like, “We shall. Love wins.”
Abby Wambach:
I feel a little bit like that’s what I’m saying around Valentine’s Day, too.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I hear that.
Abby Wambach:
Is like for so long in my life, I remember New Year’s kisses, I’d have to go in like bathrooms.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, sweetie. We love you, Juju and Erica. I hope this goes well.
Abby Wambach:
How do we get them back on this pod? I need to talk to them.
Glennon Doyle:
They’ll call us right back.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, obviously, Erica and Juju, call us back and tell us everything.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God, I’m dying to know.
Glennon Doyle:
And either way, lovebugs, if you are a cynic or you are a celebrator… Or let’s say this, I think all of us are celebrators of love. I think what we’re cynical of is not the love, it’s the commodification of the love.
Abby Wambach:
Motive, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So we can all be joined in the fact that we do believe in love.
Abby Wambach:
Just want it to be real.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, just want it to be real. And you get to have the love you want on Valentine’s Day. You get to. You don’t have to wait for somebody else to do it. You can imagine up what that person would do or bring or be to you and you can find one way to be that for yourself.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
We love you, pod squad.
Amanda Doyle:
And mostly Erica and Juju.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right, that’s right.
Abby Wambach:
On this day of Valentine’s Day and also all the other days.
Glennon Doyle:
We’ll see you soon. We love you. Bye.
Amanda Doyle:
Bye.
Glennon Doyle:
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you’d be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you’ll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you’ll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Audacy, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you’re there, if you’d be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.
We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 Studios.
I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlile.
Speaker 5:
(singing)