Amanda’s “Rebuilding Year” + Playfulness + Your Questions
February 8, 2024
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
We are doing them.
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s do a check-in.
Abby Wambach:
Oh.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. I want to know how my wife and my sister are doing. Abby, I’m going to ask you first, because what I keep hearing from people who listen to this podcast and love us very much are these two words, and those words I hear are, “More Abby.”
Amanda Doyle:
Get in line. Everybody, all God’s children want more Abby.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my gosh.
Glennon Doyle:
I know.
Abby Wambach:
That’s lovely that people want more of me.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
I’m great, yeah. Life is happening. Our kids are doing wonderful. So much of my contentedness is wrapped up in making sure our kids are doing okay and that they’re happy-ish and that they’re doing all the things that they want to be doing with their life.
Glennon Doyle:
What does okayness mean? When you say you want the kids to be okay, what does that mean?
Abby Wambach:
Well, I know that life is weird, especially when you’re going through teenagehood and young adulthood, and I think that the stresses and the courses of life that all three of them are on, I think happiness, the striving towards happiness, I don’t believe in that. I think striving towards embodiedment and to have an understanding of making decisions and learning from them, that’s all I really wish for our kids. I think that I’m a very happy person, and I feel complete happiness very, very infrequently throughout a day. But I feel contentedness often, and that’s what my dream is for them. So I guess what I’m saying is that I’m probably too codependent on our children’s contentedness.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I hear that. What is the difference between happiness and contentedness? Does happiness require a zing or a buzz or something external to make it?
Abby Wambach:
Probably.
Glennon Doyle:
And contentedness is, “In the absence of anything stimulating me, I still have a bit of peace and satisfaction?”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, yeah. I think peace is satisfaction. That’s all that I’m in search of, I guess, with all the things that I do in a day. Whether it’s staying fit or going on a walk, I’m doing this new walk thing this year, which is interesting, trying to walk every weekday, those are the things that excite me.
Glennon Doyle:
Great. Walking.
Abby Wambach:
What about you, sister? What’s going on in your life? That was the most boring thing in the whole wide world, so probably less of Abby moving forward.
Amanda Doyle:
Towards the beginning of the year, I was just thinking, “I’m cold. Everything is cold all the time.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, yeah. So cold.
Amanda Doyle:
This time of year is cold. And so I grabbed this, this is a Washington Nationals blanket that is in my son’s room, because I don’t know if the pod squad knows this, but I record the podcast from the window seat of my son’s room, so I’m just in a little corner. So I grabbed this little blanket, and I was just thinking how my husband’s like. I’m like, “Oh, they suck right now. They suck.” He’s like, “No, no, no, no. They don’t suck. They’re just having a rebuilding year.”
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, the team.
Amanda Doyle:
“Having a rebuilding year.” And I feel like whole franchises, where there’s billions of dollars riding, you could view it as they suck right now, because their job is to not suck. But then you could say, “No, they’re intentionally and strategically and cyclically, it is appropriate that they’re having a rebuilding year.” So I just feel like for me, I think I’m having a rebuilding yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, girl. I love it, I love it.
Abby Wambach:
I wondered where you were going with this.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
I just feel like, “You know what? I don’t suck. Things don’t suck. I am just doing what is in the proper life cycle of a winning team to intentionally and strategically have a rebuilding year.”
Glennon Doyle:
What does that mean? What are you rebuilding? Everything?
Amanda Doyle:
I don’t know exactly. I just feel like why should all of the teams get to claim it like it’s something they’re doing on purpose?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. They don’t know either, probably.
Amanda Doyle:
And not me, I think, and Abby tell me where I’m wrong, but I think it’s where you’re like, “Okay, we are intentionally going to prune, get rid of some people. We’re going to invest in other talent and possibilities that the fruit will not be evident for a little minute.”
Glennon Doyle:
And don’t even ask for it, don’t even look for it.
Amanda Doyle:
Don’t look for the fruit, don’t come around here looking for fruit. This is a fruitless rebuilding. You just trust that it’s happening over here.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, I mean, you would think-
Amanda Doyle:
I think that’s what it’s called.
Abby Wambach:
Liberating.
Amanda Doyle:
I come bearing no fruit, and I want you to trust me.
Abby Wambach:
But here’s the thing. I think that this is a perfect example of the way we could even approach our own lives. There’s going to be some seasons of all of our lives that we can’t focus on certain things because we might not have it or we don’t have the resources for it. So some of these professional teams, what they do is they intentionally say, “Okay, we are going to spend, A, less money on the top-level talent, take a couple of years to build up some of our younger talent so that they can become that top talent, and then maybe at some point, we’ll invest and get some of these top dogs that come into our system and our franchise or organization so that we can make a run for a championship.”
That is a perfect example of a person’s life, because we can’t be always going to win the championship. I know that that might be an idealistic way of thinking about a life, but it’s not. We need seasons of hibernation, of introspection, of intention, but it has to be intentional. That’s the thing that I think, what the big takeaway for me is with pro sports, they’re like, “We are intentionally going into the season knowing that it’s a rebuilding year. We might even come in last place.” Some of these teams come intentionally in last.
Amanda Doyle:
Intentionally come in last, because then you get the first draft. Yes, exactly.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
So what I’m saying is it’s a natural life cycle. It’s very highly researched and very invested in and very strategic, but then we expect us, as individual ecosystems, to just every year be better than we were the last year and better and better and better and reaping all of these things, and it doesn’t feel natural. It feels more natural that we would have rebuilding years where it might look on the surface like not much is going on, but really, that might be the seeds of what is going to be happening in three years, five years, whatever.
Glennon Doyle:
And also, you know what? I’m going to move it to gardening.
Amanda Doyle:
In a development we did not see coming.
Abby Wambach:
In another arena that Glennon knows very little about.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s true, but it’s going to be better than this situation. Okay. Sometimes, you’re just planting a little teeny seed, and you don’t even know exactly what it’s going to be, but it’s not visible. It’s just a little teeny seed beneath the dirt. Okay? And what you’re saying is, “I don’t even know what it is, and I don’t want anybody to expect anything of this little flower, but I’m just going to go out each day and just give it a little bit of water. That’s what I’m doing.” And also, wouldn’t it be amazing if what we learn is the point is just the watering a little bit? That’s the joy of it. It’s not even whatever it becomes, because we’re always so result-based, like winning the championship, what’s the thing going to be? But I just feel like so many people are going into the vibe of simple, smaller, not results-based, not girl-bossing, not we’re going to win the thing, not relevancy, but the beauty of just having your little plot and just watering each day, and that’s the whole point.
Abby Wambach:
The beauty of the ho-hum Monday. The beauty of the walking to the seed and the beauty of filling the can up with water, the beauty of that process.
Glennon Doyle:
Because otherwise, we just fall back into the same hustle culture. Otherwise, I’m resting right now, I’m sowing, but only so I could reap big later, only so I can show up big later. But what if the whole point is finding the joy in the small sowing and that that is the reaping.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, totally. But sometimes fucking watering seeds is really boring. That’s the problem.
Amanda Doyle:
I just also feel like it’s a good life hack that if people are like, “What are your goals for this year? What is your intention?” I just invite everyone to adopt the answer, “I’m having a rebuilding year.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, period. Period.
Amanda Doyle:
I just feel like, “What are you going to say after that?” It sounds very intentional, but people get to leave you alone. It’s expect nothing of me, and I’m into it.
Glennon Doyle:
And you know how at the press conferences, they might say, “I’m having a rebuilding year, and I’ll be taking no further questions.” I think the “I’ll be taking no further questions” is important. You don’t want to-
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, it’s implied.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, yeah. It’s like, “Oh, so I guess we shouldn’t ask any more questions about why nothing is happening, because apparently she’s having a rebuilding year.”
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Glennon, how about you?
Glennon Doyle:
I’ll just tell you this. Last night I was getting in the bathtub with my book and my phone, because that’s the best way to do self-care is with your phone.
Amanda Doyle:
Mindful, really when you think about it.
Glennon Doyle:
Anyway, I have this moment where I’m holding a book, holding a phone, I’m naked, obviously. I try to put my foot over the bathtub, and I notice, “Oh, I’ve lost complete balance and control. I am going down.” I am going down, I’m not sure what to do. I’m not great in a spatial emergency. Okay? I’m not. So all I can tell you is I feel like I’m going to die, and then two minutes later I kind of come to, as I do.
Abby Wambach:
She didn’t pass out, to be clear.
Glennon Doyle:
No, no, no. Totally conscious of time.
Abby Wambach:
You fall into the tub.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, and then all I remember is looking down in the water, and my book is at the bottom of the tub and my phone is at the bottom of the tub.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, you saved a zero? Because in my head I was thinking, “What would Glennon save? Her book or her phone?” And it’s a real toss up in my head, but you saved neither.
Glennon Doyle:
Or me, because I have this … I look like an athlete. I look like someone who got beat up on a field, a bathlete.
Abby Wambach:
She looks like a soccer player.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m a bathlete, yeah.
Abby Wambach:
She’s got a soccer player injury.
Glennon Doyle:
I have bruises, I have a bump, a huge bump. I was giggling when I came to, because my book at the bottom of the bathtub says On Embodiment, because of course. So I don’t know how I’m doing. I don’t know. I’m in a rebuilding year.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, a rebuilding year. Okay, there will be no further inquiries of you. Great.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Well, and we talked about it, because a few minutes later, because I was in bed watching TV, and she just goes, “Babe, I fell.” And so I jump up, and I run in there, and she’s just sitting in the tub, and her phone and stuff are now out of the tub. She’s pulled them out of the tub, and I was just making sure she wasn’t actually injured, and she wasn’t. She just got a little bruise. And I said, “So when you were falling, did you think, ‘Where should I throw the book and phone away from the water?'” And she said, “No, I don’t even know what happened.” And so I think what happened is she fell, and she just placed the phone and the book directly into the tub just in there. And then didn’t immediately take the phone out. She was just looking at them both at the bottom of the tub, just like, “Oh, dang it.”
Amanda Doyle:
Like, “Oh, darn.”
Abby Wambach:
“Darn it all.”
Glennon Doyle:
Well, that’s a moment, looking down and being like, “Oh, my God, my phone and my embodiment book are at the bottom of my bathtub.” It was kind of a cool moment.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, it was.
Glennon Doyle:
Anyway, I felt a little bit more wired and anxious the last few days, and that, to me, was a moment where the universe was like, I do have these moments where it’s like a big, “Slow the fuck down. You need to calm down. You need to calm down. Literally, we are taking you down.” So I feel humbled when something like that happens to me. It’s hard not to.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s hard not to feel humbled when you drop your body, your phone and your book in the tub. It’s not a reach, Doyle, to feel humbled in that situation, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. So I just kind of crawled into bed afterwards and just did nothing for the rest of the day.
Amanda Doyle:
The universe is telling you to do less.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Let’s hear from our pod squadders. This is exciting. This is the first of the year episode where we are going to answer questions from the pod squad, and our goal, which we probably won’t meet, is to keep it light, to stay easy, so we can do hard things easy. All right. We are going to be easy-breezy. We are not going to bring trauma into this quiz.
Abby Wambach:
Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed, everybody.
Glennon Doyle:
Which means-
Amanda Doyle:
I cannot be held to account. I was not informed. I was unable to bring trauma. So two out of the three you’ll get.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t know how not to.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t either, but I don’t know.
Amanda Doyle:
All right, let’s hear it.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Go ahead, Stephanie.
Stephanie:
My name is Stephanie, and my question for Abby is as I’ve gotten older and now have a kid, who’s three-and-a-half, I am losing my play and my fun. And I’m going to be 36 this month, and I don’t want to grow up. I’m doing hard things, but I’m tired, I’m exhausted. And I just want to know, Abby, do you ever do anything when you start to feel like you’re not playing enough that always brings you back to having fun? Is there any suggestions you could give me? Any morning things that you do to spark the play and the youthfulness back?
My heart breaks when my daughter says, “You want to play with me?” And I think, “Yeah, no, I don’t. I just want to make this dinner.” And I know sister feels the same way, but I want my play back, I want my silly back. Abby, if you have any suggestions on how to not ground yourself in calmness, but ground myself back to my silly, playful, fun self, that would be great. I love you guys so much, and also I listened to Tisha’s song at the end of every episode, and 97% of the time I cry because it’s beautiful and it touches me. And you guys touch me every single time I listen to the pod.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, Stephanie. Okay. I will say as I get older, play changes. So what your play and silliness might’ve looked like when you were 10, 20, 30 might look differently now. Honestly, sometimes when I’m cooking dinner, I’ll throw on some music, and I’ll just sing Whitney Houston as loud as I possibly can. I will dance around. I do like to play near Glennon, because I know that she doesn’t really know how to play. In fact, last night we had a situation in our house that Glennon was looking at me weird, and I was pretending not to hear her, so I just kept going, “Huh? Huh?” So I just was doing that, and it was annoying her. And so Glennon started to play.
Glennon Doyle:
I tried to play.
Abby Wambach:
So she, because I was saying, “Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh?” And it was annoying her, so she started to poke her finger towards my mouth. And so we were now in the act of play, and this was fun for me. And so I, of course, opened my mouth, and I’m pretending like if you stick it further in, I’m going to bite your finger. And I’m like, “Ar ar ar, ar ar ar.” And so she’s going and she’s pretending to do it, and then all of a sudden Glennon, unbeknownst to me, because the way that I’ve learned how to play in the way of sticking a finger in somebody’s mouth as a playful thing is you don’t really stick your finger in their mouth because they’re going to bite it. Right? Glennon-
Amanda Doyle:
They’ve already said, “I’m going to bite it.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. So Glennon doesn’t know the protocol of play like somebody who does. And so I’m going like this, and Glennon actually sticks her finger in my mouth, and I bite her.
Glennon Doyle:
Really hard. This is only two hours after the bathtub incident.
Abby Wambach:
And she goes, “Ow, owww!” Because it hurt.
Glennon Doyle:
It hurt bad. It hurt bad, people.
Abby Wambach:
I did not expect her to actually, because … It was eventually funny. She was actually mad for the first 10 minutes because I hurt her.
Amanda Doyle:
On account of you biting her?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I told her that she broke my trust.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, she did say that. Oh, God. You’re so pathetic. Stephanie, one thing that I would suggest is figure out what play means to you now. Obviously, you have a young daughter, and the truth is is nothing is fun about playing with a little kid, because it’s like, “Dumb. Dumb.”
Glennon Doyle:
You’re the worst.
Amanda Doyle:
Nobody had to say it.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s not play, that’s work. That’s what you’re thinking of it. Wrong playing with your kid is not play. Playing with your kid is work.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s parenting. Play, you got to find your own play.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Right, Abby?
Abby Wambach:
Yes. And then eventually, if she sees you playing at your own thing, your daughter or your children will probably want to join in whatever that is. For instance, I love surfing. That is the highest level of play that I can get into, and we went surfing as a family a couple of years ago, and we were all in the water. And I just thought, “Oh, my God. We’re all doing this together,” and it was so awesome. So figure out what it is that you love and that makes you feel silly and that makes you feel playful and do that, and I bet you your daughter will maybe want to come join you.
Glennon Doyle:
First of all, I love that Stephanie said, “I’m not talking about a calming, grounding practice.” That’s important, because it’s two different things. We’re so focused on the wellness, calmness, meditation whole thing to just get our shit together. That is one thing, but what Stephanie’s talking about is something different. It’s not that, it’s not just mental health stuff. It’s like silly joy, fun, a different thing. So what is your thing right now, babe? Because you have all different things.
Abby Wambach:
Well, I can bring silly, fun, joy into anything that I’m doing. I don’t know. We’ll just be in line. Usually when we’re in line somewhere where it’s boring and we’re just waiting to go to get served or whatever we’re doing, I’ll just start dancing. I break out in dance quite often.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, you do.
Abby Wambach:
We did it this morning at the doctor’s office. I was just like, “Oh, okay. Let’s go. Here’s some music. We’re going to just make some joy out of it.” I can do that in any scenario. I don’t think that it’s even an activity that you need to do to play. It’s uncovering or letting the part of you that wants to play come out in the normal parts of your life.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you think that the calming, relaxing, resting stuff is not the same as silliness, but that it is a prerequisite to the silliness? Because one thing that silly vibes and fun, when you say dancing in line, what that requires is someone who takes care of themselves, who has enough energy, who has enough rest to have that bubbly, carbonated energy that is the injection of fun into other things.
Abby Wambach:
Freedom, peace, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
What I do know about you is you take very good care of yourself. You take naps whenever the fuck you want, which is so revolution. You take good care of yourself.
Abby Wambach:
I shut it down.
Glennon Doyle:
I wonder if that’s connected?
Abby Wambach:
I shut it down, I shut myself down. I give myself two hours to just do whatever the hell I want during a day. And I do think it gives me the energy. And I don’t know, it’s this period of time that gives me the space to just be myself in all the other parts of my life.
Glennon Doyle:
And Stephanie’s got little ones, so she might not be able to do that yet.
Abby Wambach:
It’s hard. That might be impossible, actually.
Glennon Doyle:
And I think that joy and playfulness can be different things. I mentioned this last year, I’ve been doing a little bit of painting, and by painting, I don’t even actually think that that is what I’m doing.
Abby Wambach:
It is what you’re doing. You made a painting, and I think it’s beautiful.
Glennon Doyle:
Thanks. So I’m not painting things that you could recognize, because that feels like a skill. I’m not trying to have a skill. I’m just trying to have that moment of like, “Oh, look. I’m doing something completely unproductive, and oh, my gosh, the colors are so pretty.” Okay, I’m just going to admit this, because this is the truth of things. How I started doing this was I set up the bunch of painting stuff upstairs, and I was like, “This is the kind of thing that I want my kids to see me doing. This is the memory I want them to have of me.” I set it all up right before Chase came home, because I was like, “I want him to come home and just have memories of my mom, the whimsical painter, who just had so much fun.” It was completely motivated wrongly.
Abby Wambach:
That’s amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. So many of us do that, babe. That’s not a you thing, that’s a people thing. And well, especially with kids.
Glennon Doyle:
I want to be viewed this way by my children, not that I want to do it. But then it was kind of great. Colors are cool. I felt like I was in elementary school again or something but without all the trauma. It felt like it was enjoyable in the doing of it, and I was just by myself. There was nobody else there, which is also another reason why it was enjoyable. But there is something just messing with colors. It’s like these little moments where you’re like, “This is in service of no one or no goal,” and …
Abby Wambach:
But it was in service of you.
Glennon Doyle:
… it’s enjoyable.
Abby Wambach:
I have a hypothesis for me as a person that in order to have this full life, I’d like to look forward to things quite a bit, and I like the outcome of other things, and this is important. I think play, it’s something that you participate in, that you look forward to that doesn’t feel like, that there’s no part of it that feels like, “Oh, this is a slog, or I’m dreading this or whatever.” I work out every day, and I dread working out every single day, but I do it because I know it’s good for me, and I love the feeling that I have when I’m done with that. And so play, I think though, is about feeling excited before you do something and also having that same feeling last while you’re doing it and missing it a little bit when you’re not doing it.
Glennon Doyle:
Cool.
Abby Wambach:
Does that make any sense?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Okay, good.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you have any play things that you’re doing, Sissy?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, do you play?
Amanda Doyle:
No. I want to hear from Barb.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Barb.
Barb:
Hi, my name is Barb. This is a really random question, but I actually like hearing the answer from people, because I think it kind of reveals things about people that you may suspect but may not necessarily. When you’re riding a roller coaster, do you prefer to sit in the front, the middle, or the back of that roller coaster car thing? All right. Thanks, guys.
Abby Wambach:
Ooh, Sissy. You’re the one.
Amanda Doyle:
That is an awesome question.
Abby Wambach:
It’s a good question, and you’ve just recently ridden a rollercoaster. What is your answer?
Amanda Doyle:
So first of all, I love that Barb just said, “Do you front or the back?” Of course, it has to be in the front or the back, but I think it depends on the individual coaster as to whether it has launches or whether it has loops or obviously whether it has the floorless situation. So I love a roller coaster very much.
Glennon Doyle:
Sister is a roller coaster connoisseur.
Amanda Doyle:
And I think I’ve been thinking about it lately, because we took the kids to Six Flags the day after Christmas because everyone in my family loves a roller coaster. It’s like our unifying force because we’re all very different, but in coasters we trust situation. We all love it. And I’m like, “Why do I love this so much?” And I realized that it’s the experience of being wildly out of control, but with the reality that you’re actually meticulously under control. There is no actual … The chances of getting hurt at a legit amusement park are 1 in 18 million. It’s not at all risky or scary, but you feel like you’re being absolutely nuts by going on.
Glennon Doyle:
Interesting. It’s fake loss of control, so it’s a fake loss of control, sort of?
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a genuine wildly out of control-ness while knowing that it’s very much in control. Because you’re flipping upside down, you are going in these ridiculous contortions, but it has also been regularly vetted by the safety and stress corrosion inspection. So you know that that is happening, but you’re like, “I’m nuts. Look at me. I’m crazy.” Whereas it’s why, Abby, I love going tubing when you are driving the boat, because you can do crazy things with the boat, and the tube is going nuts. But I can do it if you’re driving. If someone else is driving, I won’t do it, because it is the extent to which I can let go is directly proportional to the extent to which I can trust.
Abby Wambach:
That’s interesting.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Amanda Doyle:
So I’m like, “Okay, I love this out-of-control feeling, but it’s so rare to get the out-of-control feeling while you know that you’re actually safe.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow, that’s deep.
Abby Wambach:
So good. It’s so good.
Amanda Doyle:
I think it’s true.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s when people are like, “Just let go. I just need more information. Let go to whom?” When I sent you that meme over the thing that was like, “Does the process know that we’re trusting it?”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
“Who’s in charge of the process? I’m happy to let go if you give me the resume of the person who’s going to pick up.” So the roller coaster is the perfect release knowing the fine print.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, it’s a very JV version of …
Glennon Doyle:
Interesting.
Amanda Doyle:
It gives your body the experience of risk and chaos while you’re actually risking nothing.
Abby Wambach:
I have a question. You didn’t answer it, middle, front, back?
Amanda Doyle:
For me, no middle, unless the lines are too long, in which case, if I want to get through it, I’ll do the middle. For me, if it is a floorless coaster, I like to sit in the very front, because then you feel like there’s nothing, it’s just you going, you’re like wide open spaces just floating in air. If it’s a Super Launchy type coaster or there is a lot of twists and turns, then back, because the very back has a major sense of weightlessness and you get a lot more airtime on the back, because by the physics of it, when the front cars go down, you’ve got gravity plus the speed, and so the last car is like, “Whoop,” you get airtime.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so this is play, Sissy. You’re playing. This is play.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, yeah. No, this is a major play area for us. Yeah, I’m into it.
Abby Wambach:
Glennon, are you middle?
Glennon Doyle:
I’m not. I’m the one who waits in line with you and then crosses over. I don’t do roller coasters. I know that that makes me unfun, but I also feel like …
Abby Wambach:
Why does that make you unfun?
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like the same way about roller coasters as I feel about horror movies.
Amanda Doyle:
Why would you want to intentionally scare yourself? There’s enough scary things all around.
Glennon Doyle:
That, and that people maybe have some kind of, I don’t know, stability privilege. That’s great, that you’re doing so great that you’re like, “What I feel today is just too emotionally and physically steady, and so I need to file flail myself …
Amanda Doyle:
You need to shake it up.
Glennon Doyle:
… I need to fling myself into the air or fling myself emotionally into the abyss with a movie.” Great, I love that for you. For me, it’s all scary enough.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. You don’t have to explain yourself.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, great. Well, I kind of do because of the podcast.
Abby Wambach:
No, I actually don’t think you do. I used to hate roller coasters when I was a kid, and then, because I learned about the safety mechanism that you just talked about, I think that’s super important. And as I grew up and got older, I took more risk and risk. Sister, have you ever gone skydiving?
Amanda Doyle:
No.
Abby Wambach:
Would you?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, my god. You guys should go skydiving.
Amanda Doyle:
If it was a vetted place. I wouldn’t jump off a cliff into water.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like sanctioned.
Glennon Doyle:
The water hasn’t been vetted?
Amanda Doyle:
Well, because we don’t know. We’re just doing this. We’re just, “This looks fun,” but this isn’t like a process that somebody has reviewed.
Abby Wambach:
Well, you just let somebody go in front of you. That’s what you do on a cliff. And PS, I’ve gone skydiving, and I would never do it again.
Glennon Doyle:
Again, I’m so comfortable on this earth, I’m so comfortable walking this earth that what I’m going to do is, today, I’m going to go into the air and jump back towards it. Wow.
I want to hear all these little questions from Katie, and I think I’m going to read this one to you, because I want to ask all of these of Sister. Okay?
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, God.
Glennon Doyle:
This is from Katie. She says, “OMG, this is Katie, and I have questions. Yes, I have a million questions, so I’m going to try and run through some of them. Okay, Sister, love you so much. If you could have dinner with one person, dead or alive, who would it be and why?” Go.
Amanda Doyle:
Anne Louch. She was our great great great great-grandmother. Whenever I think about who I would have dinner with, dead or alive, it’s always ancestors. It’s the only thing I’m interested in. It was during the potato famine, and she had to send her son Patrick when he was six years old on a ship without her and her husband, because they couldn’t afford to come to America because they were going to die of starvation. And so he came to the US, and he is our great-great-grandfather, and I just would want to tell her our story.
Glennon Doyle:
What her sacrifice ended up?
Amanda Doyle:
Well, I just think all the time, I don’t know, I know you said don’t bring trauma into this, and wah-wah, I did, but I think about, my God, how many that impossible decision and how many of us have that story at somewhere in our histories of somebody making an impossible choice and that resulted in the lives that we have.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Even our work with the separated families at the border, I was thinking about how, when we were watching that go down, these people trying to get to America for a better life, and their families being torn apart in the process of just trying to survive, these little kids, and how deeply and profoundly that affected us to try to help, and that is the story of our own family.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. “What was your favorite concert?”
Amanda Doyle:
Indigo Girls concert last year on Wendy’s birthday. My friend, who passed away, Wendy, we had huge signs of her face. It was her 47th birthday, and they sung to her, and we all sung together, and we all knew it was going to be Wendy’s last, and it was just the most beautiful night. They met with Wendy, and the entire Wolf Trap sung to her, and it was my favorite concert.
Glennon Doyle:
Of, so Emily and Amy from stage asked the entire audience to sing Happy Birthday to Wendy, right?
Abby Wambach:
I love those two. That is so wonderful.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, it was beautiful, so beautiful.
Glennon Doyle:
That’ll do it. I don’t know if it gets any better than that. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
It is a good one.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh. “Have you ever thought about writing a book?” These are all still questions from Katie.
Amanda Doyle:
Katie, I love you. I have thought about it, because I’ve thought about everything, but I just feel like, “That’s okay.”
Glennon Doyle:
“That’s okay. Pass.” Oh. “Do you ever feel like running for political office?”
Amanda Doyle:
I can’t imagine something more terrible than that. Here’s the thing. I want to do what I think would be best and smart and effective. I don’t want to be accountable to people.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
And I feel like when you’re running for office, you are making yourself accountable to people and what they want, but I’m not sure that being accountable to what people is the way to make the best decisions.
Glennon Doyle:
To lead. Damn straight. That is correct. And especially in the political realm, because the people to whom you’re accountable are not even the people. The people to whom you’re accountable are special interest groups. That’s why what you’re saying is funny, but it’s actually at the crux of the problem. Of course, you can’t be a political person, because you actually want to make real change, so you can’t be beholden to special interest groups. Right?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Or you don’t even want to be accountable to the people.
Amanda Doyle:
I would not be good at it, because it would be like Larry would want to write to me about why his mail is coming at 4:00 as opposed to 3:00, and I’d be like, “Larry, no one gives a shit. We’re not talking about that today.”
Glennon Doyle:
“What have you done for reproductive justice today, Larry?” Right?
Amanda Doyle:
Right, exactly. So I don’t think it would be good for me. It would be a real thrill to have some kind of strategy or policy work. I haven’t done that in terms of either messaging or policy-wise, but I would not like to be the person at the top whose face has one billion-thousand tentacles in it. I would rather just be able to do the right thing as I see it and make decisions as I see it, and I don’t feel like those people are liberated to do that within the current structure.
Abby Wambach:
I’m calling it here and now.
Glennon Doyle:
What are you calling?
Abby Wambach:
Is that when we get our first woman president, Amanda is going to be working for her.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, so it’s not going to be Amanda? That’s good news.
Abby Wambach:
No, I don’t think that you would want that. I think that you would want to be working with somebody who is capable of being the face of the nation and coming up with cool policies and cool ideas so that they can implement them.
Amanda Doyle:
I don’t want to be president, and that is convenient for me on account of I am incredibly unqualified for the role.
Glennon Doyle:
That doesn’t seem to matter. Okay, we’re going to hear from Allison.
Allison:
Hi, Glennon, Abby and all. My name is Allison, and my question is when do we stop being our younger selves? And I’m wondering this mostly because I was that teenager that caused a lot of problems in my younger years, and I feel like still to this day now in my 40s, I’m still making up for those faults or those mistakes of my younger self. And I’m wondering when do we stop having to be that part of ourselves? Thanks for all you do. Bye.
Amanda Doyle:
Wow, that’s fascinating.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, I feel like, this makes me think of internal family systems a lot, because I do too also have younger parts of myself that made decisions that I don’t feel very proud of and caused some problems for me, for my family as I was growing up. And I think when I look back on that, I like to think of that part of myself, because when you can look back, it’s almost like a whole younger year was a part of yourself while having all these parts coming up and growing and trying to process what was happening. So I think of my younger self as like, “Oh, there were parts of you then that needed to express itself in certain ways to survive.” And I feel like I’ve just rounded this corner where I’m like, “Thank God you did that because you survived and you got here now.” I don’t know.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
I have a question about what she’s saying. Is she saying when do you stop being that in terms of your identity is like, “Oh, she was the bad one in the family or she was the rebel rouser,” whatever the perception of you within the unit being that person, or is she asking, “This part of me that keeps recurring and showing up, when am I going to let this part go?”
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, interesting. I didn’t even think of it that way. That’s so true. She could be saying, “When will they stop seeing me as that person?” I can’t even answer that question, because I’m so far gone from worrying about controlling other people’s narratives. If that’s what you’re doing, Allison, “They’re treating me that way because that’s the way I used to be,” I think that part is just out of our control completely. How other people perceive who we are is a fake idea now. So much joy and peace comes for me when I remember that the reason I’m stressing is because I’m trying to control what another person thinks of me. It’s just another version of disembodiment. I’m not in my body right now. I’m not even in my own mind. I’m in your mind of what you might think of me. It’s crazy making.
Amanda Doyle:
But in order to let go of that, Glennon, you have to have an alternate grounding. In order to let go of your, what I think you believe about me, can I not let that go until I have a very firm grasp on what I believe about me?
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t think so, because I would not say that that’s a solid thing that I have. If we’re waiting for this epiphany of selfness before we stop that other thing, then we might never stop that other thing. I don’t think you get it nailed and then you stop worrying about the other thing. I think it’s just like you sense the insanity of what I’m doing with my life is I am trying to get into a million other minds and somehow Jedi mind trick them into a certain way of thinking about me, which I don’t even know what they’re actually thinking. That’s just an absolute way of not living, right?
Amanda Doyle:
Well, that’s a relief. Great.
Glennon Doyle:
You really don’t have to do that.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
You really do not have to spend time thinking about what other people think about you. And by the way, I’m just preaching to my own choir-self with this. I know that that’s true.
Abby Wambach:
You are.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s a very hard thing for me to remember. But the moments I do remember that throughout the day or week or month are my best moments, where I’m like, “Oh, my God. That takes away 99% of my problems. I actually don’t have to think about what other people are thinking about me.” If what Allison is asking is when do I actually stop making penance for that person I was or feeling like I have to be so good because I was bad, or maybe she’s doing what I do, which is like, “Okay, I was a really big fuck-up for a while, and now I’m on the straight and narrow. So am I a good person now, and I was just pretending to be bad before, or am I a bad person, and I’m just pretending to be good now?” It’s all this stuff.
The pattern that I can see in my life is I was myself, and then the fuckery started around 10. And then I started thinking that I was bad, and so I hid and had a very long stretch of, “I’m just a bad girl, I’m a bad person,” meaning whatever addiction is, whatever bulimia is, whatever alcoholism was, breaking laws, whatever, bad, bad, bad, bad, rebel, rebel, rebel. Then I got pregnant with Chase. I thought I saved myself by being good. I’m just going to be perfect. Right? Both of those turned out to have nothing to do with who I was.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
The rebellion or the obedience, the bad or the good had nothing to do with who I was, so I don’t take responsibility for it. I don’t know who the hell I was from the time I was 10 to whatever. I think of it as one long experiment. But what I’m trying to do right now at 47 is absolutely become again who I was when I was seven with this wiser self that’s along for the ride. When I hear Allison say, “How do I not be my youngest self,” I’m trying to do the opposite. I’m trying to, and I think it’s a theme of, it’s turning out to be a theme of this episode, play, rest, these little things that I allowed myself to be, feel, do as a child, and then culture told me no in a million different ways.
I’m trying to get back to that place that now that I’m 47, I get to say yes. I get to say yes to any of those things that little seven-year-old wanted, whether it was expressing herself, whether it was resting, whether it was eating, whether it was doing nothing productive, whether it was crying, all of the things that she needed to do to feel free is what 47 and my 50s are going to be about. And so all the experimental years, whenever they were, Allison, whenever the hell you were doing exactly what you needed to do to be this woman in your 40s, oh, well, life is one long experiment.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
So let’s just all get back. Good is a cage, following all the rules, obedience is a cage, rebellion hurting ourselves. I heard in a show last night, “Flailing ourselves against an uncaring universe.” The universe, we’re not punishing, the universe doesn’t give a shit. We’re just hurting ourselves. Rebellion’s a cage, obedience is a cage. What is freedom? I’ve been good, I’ve been bad. I want to be free now, and the best way I can think to do that is to go back to who I was when I was seven and give myself permission to do everything that she would’ve wanted to do. So that’s that. Thanks for this check-in. It really ended up being very light and airy and easy-breezy.
Abby Wambach:
Minimal traumatic stuff.
Glennon Doyle:
I think we talked about roller coasters, so that’s kind of light, right?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. But we got to the depth of that, which is cool.
Glennon Doyle:
I love you both so much.
Amanda Doyle:
We love you. Love you, love you, love you.
Abby Wambach:
I love you so much.
Glennon Doyle:
Seven-year-old me would’ve been really excited if she knew that one day we were going to be working by playing with our wife and our sister.
Abby Wambach:
So fun.
Amanda Doyle:
Seven-year-old you would be happy to know you were just going to have a couple of rebuilding decades in between there.
Glennon Doyle:
[inaudible 00:46:43] rebuilding 10s, 20s and 30s and 40s.Abby Wambach:
I love you guys.
Glennon Doyle:
Pod squad, we love you. You can do hard things. Bye.
Abby Wambach:
Bye.
Glennon Doyle:
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you’d be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you’ll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you’ll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you’re there, if you’d be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 Studios. I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlile.
(singing)