Christen Press & Tobin Heath Protect What Matters Most
January 11, 2024
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. You are not going to want to miss this episode, because today we have the Christen Press and the Tobin Heath. Christen Press is a two-time World Cup Champion, two-time Olympic Gold Medalist, and an equal pay pioneer. She is one of the all-time top 10 goalscorers on the National Team, and currently plays for Angel City FC. Christen led the US Women’s National Team’s historic achievement of equal pay and served as the leader of the US Women’s National Team Players Association for two years. Christen is Co-Founder and Co-CEO of RE-INC, a values-led brand that exists to reimagine the way women are seen and experienced in sports. She sits on the board of Grassroots Soccer, a nonprofit organization that uses the power of soccer to provide mentors, information, and health services to at-risk youth in Africa.
Tobin Heath is a two-time World Cup champion and a two-time Olympic Gold Medalist, known as one of the most skillful and entertaining players in the game. Throughout her club career, Heath has played for PSG, the Portland Thorns, Manchester United, and Arsenal.
Tobin has taken her vision, leadership, and creativity off the pitch and into her roles as Co-Founder and Co-CEO of RE-INC and host of the critically acclaimed show, which Abby and I are obsessed with, The RE-CAP Show, World Cup Edition. Welcome to two of our favorites, Christen and Tobin.
Abby Wambach:
How are you guys?
Christen Press:
We are good. Oh, and can we just quickly tell you that one, I think I said this to you, but I have literally have listened to every single episode of your podcast except for my own. And I wanted to say that I became obsessed with Enneagrams, which I’m sure I’m not the only one who tells you this, but because of your show to the point where poor Tobin, our lives are ruled by the Enneagrams and it is also kind of fearful.
Tobin Heath:
Our lives are ruled by the Pod Squad.
Abby Wambach:
What numbers are you guys? What’s your number, Christen?
Christen Press:
Three, seven.
Glennon Doyle:
Three and seven. So you two are my sister and Abby, you’re missing a four.
Tobin Heath:
Yes. Yes. Yeah, and actually, I didn’t know that your sister wasn’t going to be on it. I’ve heard a lot about her and I was like, “Wait, what?”
Abby Wambach:
I know it’s because Amanda only joins when there’s an expert on, that’s when she joins. She’s never on.
Glennon Doyle:
That is not true. That’s not true.
Tobin Heath:
I was like, “Well, what am I an expert at?” I did say, I was like when Christen said when you texted about the double date, and I was like, “Wait, so you got to talk about something meaningful and I have to talk about our relationship?”
Abby Wambach:
We’ll have you back on, Tobin, just solo you.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Abby Wambach:
And the next time we have Christen on-
Christen Press:
Our relationship is so meaningful.
Tobin Heath:
It is meaningful. Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
That sentence is so amazing. You got to talk about something meaningful and I’m stuck with our relationship.
Abby Wambach:
Well, Tobin, I don’t know, Tobin, did you hear the Suzanne Stabile episode that we did? And I’m a seven and I’ve been doing a ridiculous amount of work and therapy right now trying to discover more about my shadow side, like the sadder emotions that I don’t ever feel or want to feel. And that’s been real interesting.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah.
Christen Press:
Well, I also followed your lead and went into therapy after I learned about my Enneagram. Legitimately listened to your podcast, found out what my Enneagram was and then went in for therapy. But I have tried to get Tobin to start to think about her shadow side and it’s not going well for us.
Tobin Heath:
It’s there.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. It’s there.
Christen Press:
The shadow side’s there, yeah.
Tobin Heath:
It’s there.
Glennon Doyle:
Are you like a bright sider? Do you want to stay on this side of things? You want to stay on the happy side, look on the bright side and not delve too far?
Tobin Heath:
Yeah. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Christen Press:
Look at your face.
Tobin Heath:
No. Yeah, I never knew I was devoid of negative feelings. I always found it to be my superpower. Right?
Abby Wambach:
Me too!
Tobin Heath:
Your superpower is also your greatest… I do think it probably has helped in sport in a lot of ways.
Abby Wambach:
Yes. It’s really not great when you retire though. It’s a toughy. It’s a toughy.
Tobin Heath:
I also think that I’ve kind of reframed that in a way as well.
Abby Wambach:
How? So, I enjoy the feeling that she’s big on the reframe. This is the RE-INC, reimagine. Let’s go ahead and reframe your resistance to the other half of being human, which is the sad stuff.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah. I just think that Christen kind of makes me confront that side and-
Christen Press:
I am the shadow side.
Tobin Heath:
She is living in the shadows.
Christen Press:
Sometimes we just have to get in the water.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you two know what’s interesting is that it turns out… Okay, I didn’t know this until this recent iteration of therapy this year, but it turns out that Christen is actually not the shadow and you’re the light. So people polarize. So if I want Abby to, hello, pay attention to all of the horrible things that could happen. Let’s get anxious, let’s get a little depressed, then I’m constantly that side. Then she goes into therapy and she’s just fucking bitching all the time. And I’m like, “Lighten up Francis!” I am like a ray of sunshine around here lately. I get to be fully human.
Christen Press:
Oh, interesting. That’s the messy middle. That’s not being so black or white. That’s what I’m working on in therapy.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Christen Press:
So much black and white thinking. So it’s like if you are always happy, then I’ll just always be evil.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Or what has been interesting? Abby is a very nervous parent. She’s always worried so much. And especially since they’ve become teenagers and I, you guys, I’m like, suddenly I’m like the dad. I’m like, they’re fine. Everything’s fine. It’s all going to fucking work out. And I’m like, oh, this is how men feel. You just need a wife to be chill. It’s not like a personality type. It’s like somebody else’s worrying, so you get to be calm.
Christen Press:
So that’s reassuring. So you’re like, she’s busy worrying, I’m good.
Glennon Doyle:
And then you get to be like everything.
Tobin Heath:
Oh yeah. That’s nice.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Anyway-
Christen Press:
I do that for you.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah, I was going to say, it’s such a nice thing to have.
Glennon Doyle:
It really is. It really is. So it’s interesting. We have a friend who called Abby and said, “I heard that you’re doing shadow work. I’m also a seven, but I don’t want to do anything about it and I’m not going to, I like my life and I like being this way.”
Abby Wambach:
She goes, if there’s anything really important-
Christen Press:
Such a seven.
Abby Wambach:
If I should know anything, just let me know what it is. After you do the work, let me know if there’s something that I could use.
Christen Press:
Yeah, you’re like, it doesn’t really work like that.
Abby Wambach:
I know. I know.
Glennon Doyle:
But a seven would want that. Just give me the notes.
Tobin Heath:
Oh, totally.
Abby Wambach:
Give me the notes.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So, I’m so excited to talk to you about a situation that you two are, I don’t know, just doing that is actually quite revolutionary in the world right now. And I want to talk to you about it actually as you’re the experts on it.
Tobin Heath:
Hey.
Christen Press:
Oh!
Glennon Doyle:
You’re the experts on it because no one else is doing it.
Christen Press:
That’s really narrow.
Glennon Doyle:
No, you are. And it’s something that in my recovery right now I’m thinking about nonstop. Nonstop about. And that is privacy. So I read Christen say that both of you have a joy for sacredness and that you deeply appreciate privacy and that you have an opportunity to model privacy as a valid way to be even in the public eye. As models, especially for people who might be struggling in their personal life or in ways that make them vulnerable in their community, like their relationship could make them vulnerable in their community.
So in other words, while many people in the public eye, including athletes, are choosing to show their interior lives in big and loud and public ways, which is valid and amazing, you two are showing to the queer community and to everyone, the beauty of doing it quietly and privately, which is actually… It’s revolutionary and actually it’s resistance.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, it is.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s resistance. I’m like, I can’t stop thinking about it now.
Abby Wambach:
It is. So good.
Glennon Doyle:
Because we’re in this world where your value is what you can show people and the clickbait and the exposure. So I’m thinking about this a lot in terms of looking back on my last 15 years and what my family has gained and what they have lost by opening ourselves up to the world and it’s a lot. It’s one of those things I don’t even looking back on directly because there’s a lot of things in the lost column.
So when you say you have a joy for the sacred, can you talk to me about, and also you can talk to Abby too, because she’s here. Can you talk to me about what sacred means?
Christen Press:
Yes. Do you want me to start?
Tobin Heath:
Of course.
Christen Press:
I think that when I think of what sacred, I think that sometimes in the world now, everything is happening so fast and so quickly and you need immediate return on the things that you’re doing. When I think of something that’s sacred, I think of something that’s intentional and it’s slow and it’s a little bit ours. And I think a little bit of protection from some of the worst parts of society. To your point, there’s pros and cons. As much as you’ve said, we’ve lost a lot. I’m sure you’ve gained a lot. So it’s not like, I don’t think we have an attitude about our way’s good. I think especially in a queer relationship, we think a lot about modeling and being brave and being out in a way that people need role models and we’ve kind of had to grapple with that and what is our calling?
Because it’s not always the same. But as you know, being on a team, it’s very easy to look at what everybody else is doing and say, okay, that’s the right way. And there’s so much that I think we admire from our teammates and from public figures that have been out and proud, just like the two of you. I think there’s something so beautiful about that. But it never felt like it was Tobin and my calling or it was not the right maybe lifestyle or decision or series of decisions that reflected us. And I think we’ve also both felt like we had something to protect. And I generally always try to chase the good. I never want to make decisions because I’m like, I’m afraid of the bad, but when it came to my relationship, that felt like erring on the side of the safe side and always protecting us and always protecting you.
And then the last thing I’d say is it’s like the marriage of our different perspectives and our different families and our different baggages. And it ended up being this really unique way of living that we have that we actually don’t see anywhere else that I think is important. It’s become a really important part of us. We obviously, we’ve been teammates, we run a business together. So I think the way that I see it is it’s like, don’t look at us, look at what we do.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Christen Press:
And it allows our relationship to be ours and special and feel a little bit safe. And it allows us to have a space to share our passion and our life’s work with more people.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
Love it. Don’t look at us, look at our work. And you both are on the same page. What were the conversations, how do you come to this? You have the same decision about this. What does your decision making look like?
Tobin Heath:
I don’t know if it’s so much of a decision making. I felt like it was kind of an extension of the way that I viewed my life and my passions and my crafts is also with that same kind of, I guess specialness to it, where I feel like if there’s something really, really good, you almost kind of like want to create a space for it that’s just for you where you get to create your own worlds and stuff like that. And I feel like especially in a world that just feels like everything’s for other people, it’s so hard to hold on to something that’s for yourself. And even when I think about football, it’s like I didn’t do football to be known. I did football because I loved it. And it’s like I don’t do my relationship to be known. I do my relationship because I’m so crazy in love.
And I feel like once you start giving things, what do you have for yourself? And it’s hard.
Christen Press:
I actually think that’s such an important part because, and I think you all understand there’s some twisted thing. We are in the queer community and we’re fighting with the queer community for rights and all of these things and protections and opportunities. And yet as a queer public figure, it actually felt like us coming out and being really public in our relationship would be a huge advantage. It felt like we would have a bigger following, we’d be able to make more money, we’re more marketable together. And that made it less interesting.
Abby Wambach:
That’s-
Tobin Heath:
Yeah. That made it so not interesting.
Glennon Doyle:
So you didn’t want to monetize your relationship, is that what you’re saying? I’m confused. So you were not interested in monetizing your… Got it. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, I just think that that’s revolutionary.
Glennon Doyle:
That is the difference between sacred and not sacred.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Christen Press:
I mean in a lot of ways, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Things we monetize and things we don’t. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
It’s like crossing this sacred boundary and we, I think it was natural, I was out. You were the gay pride leader of the world when we met. Do you think that we monetize our love?
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, come on. Yes!
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, we have.
Glennon Doyle:
Shit! And okay-
Abby Wambach:
Can we pull the genie back into the lamp?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, always.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, yeah?
Glennon Doyle:
Always.
Abby Wambach:
Because I feel a lot of envy right now for them.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I think that there’s something really beautiful. I think it sounds hard to make that decision just because anything that you’re doing that’s counter cultural, that’s different than what everyone else is doing in your position is so… And also the queer community is so focused on out, out, out.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And it reminds me with feminism where it’s like you have to be yelling all the time or you have to be loud or you have to be whatever. And it’s like, no, it’s the idea is that everybody just gets to be themselves.
Christen Press:
Yeah.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So if yourself is quieter, we have two different daughters and one of them, freedom looks quieter and the other one, freedom looks loud. But if you’re just trying to fit another blueprint, then that’s not freedom at all. So is there anything that you see happening in your friends’ more public lives that make you feel like, yikes, that is not what we wanted? Are there things that you see that affirm your decisions?
Christen Press:
Judgment from the world. And that’s not even about the relationship, it’s just all of us when we put ourselves out there. I don’t enjoy the judgment. I’ll avoid that if I can. And the judgment, I think comes from this idea that of permanence of people see something that is right now and they just make a thousand assumptions about the rest of eternity. And you asked how did we make that decision? And I actually think Tobin and I have made it quite differently. I would say Tobin, compared to what is expected, is extremely noncommittal. And so you can tell them your whole seven year contract situation if you’d like-
Glennon Doyle:
Please do.
Christen Press:
… but I think there’s something that Tobin said to me that I had to understand early because I had expectations of what a relationship is. And that was like you sign in blood that you’ll never leave no matter what.
Glennon Doyle:
Which always works well. Always works well. It never has that.
Christen Press:
I had that modeled for me from my parents. And I was like, that’s what love is. But then Tobin said to me, she said, “Every single day I wake up and I make a decision to be with you. And that’s romantic to me.” And I was like, oh, that makes me feel way better about your life commitment. Good job, good job. But I think it is beautiful. So I think part of what I’ve seen in other people, to answer your question is the world assuming that they know about their relationship when they don’t. And I don’t want that. And I don’t think that that was anyone’s decision, but it was just the consequence of being in the public eye.
Abby Wambach:
Because when you put anything out on social, oh here we are, we’re together. Then if it’s like a pie, you give this fake pie of responsibility that these random people in the world think that they have on your relationship. And it’s not true. We all know, most of us know that the people out there don’t really know really what’s going on. It’s this fake contract that we have.
Glennon Doyle:
Speaking of contract, what’s the seven-year contract?
Abby Wambach:
Oh, yeah.
Tobin Heath:
Well maybe this just comes from sports, but I just think that relationships need to be redefined or re-imagined. I think it’s kind of an insane expectation that you’re going to make a decision and that decision is just going to be for the rest of your lives. And it’s not to deny that that can totally work. But I’ve done research and I’ve gone around and asked a lot of people, “Would you want the relationship your parents have?” And I only met one person to date that said yes.
Abby Wambach:
No way. Yeah, I mean that’s not surprising for sure.
Tobin Heath:
And it’s really important for me for modeling maybe different ideas of what queer relationships can be. It’s so weird to think that in the queer community we try to then label and define things where the whole point is to be undefined and fluid and to be able to choose. And yet it’s like we need this clarity. And I think it’s in the ambiguous nature of being queer, and that word, really vibes with me. Gay never vibed with me, but queer really vibed with me. And it was in this fluidity because, and maybe this isn’t a part of the seven-ness, but it’s like I don’t want to be boxed in by any kind of label, any kind of definition. And honestly, one of the most beautiful things that Christen’s ever given to me in my relationship was just complete freedom.
And even in my crazy ideas, because most of them is just the idea of freedom. It’s not this idea that I’m going off and doing all these crazy things. It’s just this idea that I’m independent, I’m my own person and even within our relationship, I’m my own person and I can be seen as an individual piece of it. And for the choice part, that’s probably the part that I love that makes things exciting for me. And the fact that I have somebody that’s literally a new choice every day because she’s like a thousand different things all at once. So it makes life super interesting. But yeah it’s free-
Christen Press:
It’s a long story.
Tobin Heath:
Long story short. Long story short, sorry. The contracts.
Glennon Doyle:
No, I think I love that.
Tobin Heath:
I take it like sports and I’m like, all right, how many years do you want? And then at the end of the contract year you come back together and you say, “Is this something you want to sign up for? How many years?” And you sign another contract or you just go your separate ways and you say, “That was really fun.”
Christen Press:
It’s an out.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah, it’s an out.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so cool. It’s so wild because yeah-
Tobin Heath:
But to be fair, kids, I have thought about this, kids probably complicate the contract, but for now the contract seems pretty…epic? Epic yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, kids. Yeah, pretty epic.
It is interesting that it’s like we are queer and we want to do things differently, which means we just want the right to be as miserable as heterosexuals.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
I like this contract idea. I have a big fear of abandonment, so that might not-
Glennon Doyle:
Are you sweating?
Christen Press:
I don’t think it’s right for you.
Glennon Doyle:
Are you like curled up in the fetal position right now?
Abby Wambach:
I’m scared that Glennon after this is going to be like, “Hey, I really like that idea that Tobin shared.”
Glennon Doyle:
Well, let’s talk about that for a second because this takes a lot of strength. This takes a lot of strength and trust in yourself and in your person. It’s just-
Abby Wambach:
Well, Christen, how did you wrap your mind around this early days when Tobin brought this to you?
Christen Press:
I think that Tobin is a lot more bark than bite. So this is my hopeful hypothesis. I always tell her she’s like a dog that’s looking outside the fence, but as soon as you open the door, they tuck their tail and they run home. So I don’t know if that means I truly wrapped my mind around it or I just think it’s the right thing for her because I think there’s me and my impulses and what I want and my insecurities. I acknowledge those things sometimes. Sometimes I bear them. But I try to function from the best version of me and the best version of me is confident enough to believe that one, she’ll want to be with me. And two, if she doesn’t, who would ever want to be with a partner that openly didn’t want to be with them? So there’s really no loss here.
Abby Wambach:
That’s really good.
Christen Press:
It’s just giving her that feeling of freedom to be how she is and who she is.
Abby Wambach:
That’s pretty awesome.
Glennon Doyle:
What is that quote that’s like, “The highest expression of love is to love your person so that they constantly feel free.” Freedom is highest level of love. And that makes perfect sense because all of the contracts are so people cannot leave you under threat of money. It is certainly not love based, it’s fear based.
Christen Press:
Yeah. Interesting.
Tobin Heath:
And I think also because, and we can come back to reasons why people stay in relationships, but I think if you have independent self-worth and actual worth, you talk about financial freedom, it’s a whole different dynamic as well.
Christen Press:
Oh, yeah. So true.
Tobin Heath:
That can be on the next episode because that seems like a lot, too.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s a lot. Thank you for that. I mean, you guys are so… I love people who are doing their things, their brands, their things in the world, and then they’re really like that in their life. You’re re-imagining for real in your lives what life relationships can look like doing it in such beautiful ways. It’s so cool. It’s awesome.
Christen Press:
Well, thank you.
Abby Wambach:
I agree.
I want to switch gears, if you guys don’t mind, for the non-Soccer Pod Squatter listening to this, you heard Tobin earlier say football, she meant not American football, she meant soccer.
Glennon Doyle:
Tobin is a linebacker.
Abby Wambach:
Christen, can you describe Tobin as a soccer player or a footballer?
Christen Press:
Oh, I can try.
Tobin Heath:
You’ll have to go back in the archives.
Christen Press:
I would feel like, oh no, I hope I do her justice.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s sweet.
Christen Press:
Tobin as a footballer, I think she’s incredibly creative. She’s very brave. It’s like an art. It’s a dance. Like everything about her personality’s out on the field. She’s also extremely competitive. And actually when I watch, she looks like her least happy self, like the happy, easygoing, kind person I know all the time is gone. I know someone on the field that is very crazy. And as she developed and became the best version of herself, she actually became incredibly disciplined, an amazing defender, extremely smart and knowledgeable. And so when she was younger, she was sort of like, oh, Tobin’s so good, she doesn’t need to defend. And then she became amazing at what people said she wasn’t good at, just to prove a point and then became a very well-rounded player. And in her very last couple of last years, she started scoring more goals, too.
Abby Wambach:
Hey, hey, hey. That’s right. Okay, so-
Christen Press:
Just a couple. That’d be crazy and some good advice.
Abby Wambach:
Christen, now describe her as a non-soccer player human.
Christen Press:
Oh, well, it’s pretty much the same-
Glennon Doyle:
Is it?
Christen Press:
… creative, art. Oh, except for the opposite is her alter ego Tobbin, her most aggressive evil self. I mean, maybe that’s there in her real life, but I don’t think so. I think she really uses sport to get all that negative juju out.
Abby Wambach:
Maybe that’s the shadow side.
Christen Press:
Oh, maybe she is living in her shadow side.
Glennon Doyle:
Wait, is-
Christen Press:
Plot twist.
Glennon Doyle:
Is Tobbin the evil soccer player?
Tobin Heath:
I’m also a Gemini, so there’s two sides of… Yeah, I know.
Glennon Doyle:
Also, I would like to say as someone who has watched Tobin play, her feet dance around as if unattached to her legs.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like, things are happening. It’s like trickster things are happening with her feet that are crazy. Right?
Abby Wambach:
It’s very true. Yeah. I never wanted to be close to either one of you guys playing because Tobin would just Meg you and you’re like, why?
Glennon Doyle:
Just for fun, just because of evil Tobbin.
Christen Press:
Maybe it was Tobbin.
Glennon Doyle:
So Tobin, can you describe Christen as a soccer player?
Tobin Heath:
Goal scorer, driven, singularly focused, exceptional, crazy specific, excellent. Just excellence.
Christen Press:
Why does it look so painful?
Tobin Heath:
Because it is. Fast.
Glennon Doyle:
What is different about Christen as a human being than as a soccer player?
Tobin Heath:
She is all those things as a human, I would say excellence stands out as just being a through line. And then I would say as a human, she has such a wide aperture for people.
Abby Wambach:
That is cool.
Tobin Heath:
From a social perspective, it’s probably I’d say the place that I’ve learned the most from her is in her empathy and her compassion for others. I don’t really have much of that.
Glennon Doyle:
Is that true? Do you have strong boundaries with other people? What do you mean by that?
Tobin Heath:
I think it was just learnings, right? I don’t think I had been exposed to some of the learnings that Christen had and through different lenses, and honestly it wasn’t really a part of myself that showed a lot of curiosity. I always wanted to put good into the world, but I never knew from a social aspect what that really meant. I’m like, oh, people just enjoy watching me play football. That’s fun and joyful. But I’ve really understood a bit more about other people, which is always helpful.
Abby Wambach:
Christen, this excellence piece that lives on both sides of you, both as a soccer player and as a non-soccer player human. Where does that live inside of you? What function is it? Is it for you? Why?
Tobin Heath:
It’s because she’s a-
Christen Press:
I’m a three. Yeah, I’m a three. So this is my whole revolution of 2023 was, so the Enneagram is trauma-based. So I was trying to understand why I am the way I am. I understand how a three manifests that, but it’s simply the idea of wanting validation from the people that are most important to you. So it’s actually kind of a middle range. It’s not like I need the whole world to say I’m the best. I really specifically needed my parents to be proud of me when I was a kid. And they also had a very broken relationship. And I was four years old saying, “Well, when I score goals, they’re very happy.” And so it’s kind of a simple story of every athlete chasing something that’s unattainable. I kept scoring goals. They were still not happier at the day’s end. It was so fleeting and my entire drive for soccer to this day, I wonder why do I do this still?
Because I feel like my love was of being successful and my need was to be successful. And when I try new things and I’m good at them, I say, “Oh, I like that thing.” And when I try something and I’m not good at it, I don’t like that thing, but it’s like I’ve never learned to actually assess the activity. I can only assess how good I am at it. So now I’m in a place in my life where I’m like, oh my gosh, who am I? What do I like? I have no idea. I have no idea. If I didn’t play soccer, if I didn’t just keep doing what I was doing running my business and someone was like, “Christen, what would you like to do?” I have no idea.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I get that.
Christen Press:
That’s scary.
Glennon Doyle:
So if you have a day where you have nothing to do, first of all, do you even allow a world in which that… No, that’s not going to happen? I
Christen Press:
I don’t like that. A whole day? No. Maybe an hour or two.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so if you have a couple of hours.
Tobin Heath:
It even has to be scheduled, do nothing.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so that’s in your calendar, do nothing during these two hours.
Abby Wambach:
Tobin, you can do a day, right? You’re a seven, you can chill and do nothing?
Tobin Heath:
Give me a month.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, me too. Geez.
Christen Press:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
Does that cause any tension?
Tobin Heath:
No. I would say, I think maybe it’s because I’m kind of along for the ride and I make for a really fun kind partner on the ride.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, me too.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, you’re-
Abby Wambach:
I’m good at that shit.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
What do you want to do? I’m ready to go. I’m ready to do whatever.
Tobin Heath:
And she wants to do the most epic shit ever. So it’s like, dang, I chose the right train to get on.
Glennon Doyle:
She says this all the time.
Tobin Heath:
It’s so amazing. Yeah, it’s so amazing. I’m like, I think she’s so cool.
Glennon Doyle:
Christen, this is a thing though, because God, it’s so interesting thinking about sacred things that are not for other people, that are not for success, that are not for monetizing, and then trying to find something for yourself that is not any of those things. Do you have those things personally? Anything that is like, I’m not-
Christen Press:
So when I think about this, and honestly when I’m talking about this to my therapist, the only example I have is Tobin. Honestly, the only example I have for something that I know I like that I chose that is innate in me and it’s Tobin. I can’t think of a single other example. Oh, and maybe a dog. My parents’ dogs, they like me for me. You know what I mean? Not for what I do, but there’s nothing else. And I used to have… Well very recently I would go around saying, I’m going to be a farmer. I’m going to quit my job, grow out my hair, never cut it, never put on shoes, put on a big hat and work on the farm. This was my dream.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Christen Press:
I was like, I’ve figured it all out and I’m going to be really happy. And my little sister who works on farms said to me, she was like, “You would hate that.” And I was like, “Oh, she’s so mad because I’m going to do something that she said.” No, she was right. My personality type doesn’t make for a great farmer.
Glennon Doyle:
I like the idea of being a farmer. You just want to press a button and have a different, somebody to tell you what to do and then have that vibe. But really you just need a new free people hat that’s a farmer’s hat. We had that dream for a month. We were going to have a homestead on a ranch. We were going to call it the homo-stead. We had it all named.
Abby Wambach:
This is still my dream. This is still my dream.
Glennon Doyle:
We were going to have highland cows.
Abby Wambach:
Have you seen pictures of highland cows? Many highland cows?
Glennon Doyle:
We cannot not talk about them again.
Abby Wambach:
Okay, just Google it. It may bring back the dream of wanting to have a farm. Here’s the thing, it’s got to be so hard for you, Christen, because the same with our sister, Amanda. You probably excel and are exceptional at almost everything you do try. And so when you’re associating being good at something with liking it must be very confusing because all of these adventures and things you take on, you’re like, oh yeah, I figured it out. You’re super smart, you have a lot of agency, you can get done, and so it seems like you have all of this to look at and be like, look at what I’ve love. And you’re like, actually, I don’t know if I like any of it.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Christen Press:
Yeah. And it’s actually dangerous. I don’t have a belief that talent is real. I believe that I can do everything. I just believe that because I’m like, look, if I could make it to the US Women’s National Team as a soccer player, I literally can do anything because I didn’t have a lot of things going in that direction. And so it makes it so I have no discernment. Right? And is that not the most important thing to be able to know when to say no or know what you like and what you don’t like and just gives you so much direction to move through things? And then I think what happens is I get caught, and I’ve been talking a lot with this about this with you. I get caught just doing what I’m doing because I can’t find the thing inside me that says, this is what you actually want.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I mean look-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s a three thing.
Abby Wambach:
… I think a lot of our lives though, we’ve been stunted a little bit because it’s been so soccer focused that you’re now kind of nearing, I don’t mean to know exactly when you’re going to retire, but you’re getting closer to the end than you were when you started. And your brain is starting to shift into maybe what’s going to happen next. And so you’re building something, whether you like it or not, you do have to open your aperture up for ideas and possibilities for the next step and the next phase of your life. Because we didn’t have the opportunity. We just had little blinders on. Only focus on one thing. When I retired, I did not know how to be a person. I did not know how to make a calendar, a schedule for myself.
Glennon Doyle:
I had to teach her how to use calendar.
Abby Wambach:
Actually I didn’t know. I was like, somebody’s not going to send me a daily schedule? No. I have to figure out how to do that. So I know that it might feel daunting, but this is the process you will be on for probably the next five to 10 years, however long it is. It is just the process you are going through and every player who has stepped away from playing at some point, whether it’s been injury or retirement, whether they want to go through it like you are, or some players choose not to actually try to figure it out.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re just a seeker, too. Here’s the thing about seekers, okay? God, help us if we find anything.
Christen Press:
Yes, yes!That’s what I was thinking.
Glennon Doyle:
We cannot. We cannot be a farmer. The second we go be a farmer, we’re going to be like, I belong in the city! They have the answers! As long as we keep seeking, we’re fine. But we’re cult susceptible. We are moving susceptible. If we find anybody that we think has the answer, we think someone has the answers. Christen, you think somebody has the answers and then you’re going to find it. But the thing is that your answer is that you are the most beautiful seeker. We just need to hear you think out loud forever somehow.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah, I agree.
Glennon Doyle:
Somehow we just need to hear you think out loud. What is your conflict styles? And what was your last argument about?
Christen Press:
See, I should have known this question was coming. Shoot, last argument? Okay. Oh, conflict styles. I would say angry, angry.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh? Angry, angry?
Tobin Heath:
Fire, fire.
Christen Press:
Fire, fire.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, that’s interesting.
Tobin Heath:
Fire, fire, bonfire.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s cool.
Abby Wambach:
Amazing.
Tobin Heath:
Christen has to talk it out. She needs to talk it out. And I’d rather just be like, let’s just give it 10 minutes. Avoidance. It’s fine.
Glennon Doyle:
Avoidance.
Tobin Heath:
I don’t really take anything too serious. I think that’s the problem.
Christen Press:
Unless you’re very angry.
Tobin Heath:
Oh, yeah, Tobbin.
Christen Press:
We can’t give them the pretend version that you’re just like cool all the time.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah, but I’m always just… No, no chill. No chill when I’m angry.
Christen Press:
No. Yeah. I would say Tobin is like I said, she’s so easygoing, chill, easy to be around, gets along with everyone. I would just describe her whole life as ease. And then she does hit a point where she cannot stand me. I’ll be like, “Look at me. It’s still me. Look at me.” She’s like, “I don’t see you and I don’t like you.”
Glennon Doyle:
Interesting.
Christen Press:
And I would say, I’m more quick to anger. I’m irritable and I’ll bark.
Abby Wambach:
That’s great. That’s good. I think that that’s really-
Glennon Doyle:
I do too. It must be good to have two fires then you don’t worry that one person’s not getting their stuff out at all.
Tobin Heath:
I didn’t grow up in a house of yelling at all. I never once saw my parents yell and I took yelling to be a sign of like, oh no, this is bad. This is bad for us.
Abby Wambach:
Me too. Which it is.
Tobin Heath:
Well, yelling. Yeah, no, I’m thankful for that. But I also, we like clean house all the time. We just let it burn. It’s like there’s nothing that we’re… There’s no rug that has something under it that is going on. We put it all out in the open and it burns and then do a little sage dance or whatever, Palo Santo, and we’re right back to work.
Glennon Doyle:
So you recover quickly?
Tobin Heath:
Oh yeah.
Christen Press:
And Tobin will swear she doesn’t even remember that it happened.
Glennon Doyle:
Really?
Christen Press:
I’ll be like, “Oh, you remember when we got in this blowout fight when we were doing?” She’ll be like, “No.”
Glennon Doyle:
Little dissociation there. Very interesting.
Christen Press:
Shadow side, in the past, you see?
Glennon Doyle:
No, think twice Christen, before you encourage Tobin to go into therapy for the shadow side, I’m just saying there’s something legit about keeping your partner on the happy side.
Tobin Heath:
I keep telling her this.
Abby Wambach:
The only thing that I would say, Tobin, is I didn’t know how much I was suffering without saying it. So now something as little as missing a turn while driving, for whatever reason, I’ve not expressed an anger feeling or a sadness feeling for probably three weeks. And then I miss a turn. I’ve made a mistake and I’m like, God fucking, damn it!
Glennon Doyle:
I mean, she’s like, I’m an idiot! I’m so stupid!
Abby Wambach:
And everybody in the car is like, “What the hell?” And so now I’ll let some of my… Because it’s still me, I’m not an angry person either. And I’m like, oh man, that was silly.
I say stuff now that it’s a pressure thing. I release every once in a while so that I don’t ever blow.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It’s been helpful.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s interesting. And then the thing we’ve been working on recently is that unfortunately as Abby has started to express her feelings more to me-
Abby Wambach:
Oh, God.
Glennon Doyle:
She will be like.. Just last week I was being terrible. Okay? Our general fight is, am I irritable or are you irritating? That’s it. That’s our whole fight. That’s it. She told me that I had hurt her feelings and I had and knew I had, and she sat me down and she said it very seriously and very sincerely. And I burst out laughing.
Tobin Heath:
Oh my gosh. That happened to me one time too, literally to Christen. I was like, I’m trying to be open and say how I’m feeling. And she literally laughed and I was like, isn’t this supposed to work? I’m like, is this what you want?
Glennon Doyle:
Isn’t this supposed to work?
Tobin Heath:
I remember this happened a long time ago, and it probably only happened once, which is why I remember. But I was like, guess I’m not doing it right.
Glennon Doyle:
Guess I’m not.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It’s a vulnerability. I’ve crossed over into this no-go zone for Glennon, and like I said, I was like, “That really, really hurt my feelings and I just want to tell you that.” And she gets this face and she goes…
Glennon Doyle:
And then you guys, it’s a thing, right?
Abby Wambach:
And I’m like what the fuck?
Glennon Doyle:
Now I know I can’t do it because we’ve talked about it so many times. So now it’s over. It’s like when you start laughing at a funeral, it’s happening. It’s coming.
You know the thing that went on that was your Roman empire? It was all over the internet for a while? What do you guys think about all the time? I want to know this from you, too. When you’re not being forced to think about something in particular for work, what are you thinking about the most?
Christen Press:
Well, I did not get the Roman Empire.
Tobin Heath:
Me either.
Christen Press:
But I understood-
Tobin Heath:
We don’t know what happens on the internet, unfortunately.
Abby Wambach:
Okay. So there was this thing going around that wives were asking their husbands, how often do you think about the Roman Empire? And they were like, “Every day.”
Glennon Doyle:
Like men- [inaudible 00:45:48]
Abby Wambach:
Like once every couple of days.
Christen Press:
Everyone is reacting like this is new.
Glennon Doyle:
White, straight men.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah. No, I’ve never heard this.
Abby Wambach:
And it was shocking to women everywhere. Like what?
Glennon Doyle:
And there’s a lot underneath that.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah, yeah. I can imagine.
Glennon Doyle:
There’s a lot underneath that, about how things are organized.
Tobin Heath:
Oh, no. I can’t be pinned down to one thing.
Christen Press:
Oh, yeah. Tell them about the walks through the forest and stuff.
Tobin Heath:
Oh, yeah. So I am obsessed with my mind. I don’t know if people say that, but not because I’m thinking I’m so smart or so whatever. But it’s because I love my imagination and I can do anything in my mind. So anything that I can’t do in this physical world, I can do in my mind. And a lot of times I’ll go for a walk, so I know some people become restless if they can’t sleep or something. And I’ll just go to my favorite place in my mind and I’ll just walk around. And yeah, I think that’s probably where… I call it my mind palace. That’s where I would go. I go to different rooms and hang out and walk around in my mind.
Glennon Doyle:
You have a palace that’s built and it’s the same one?
Tobin Heath:
Yeah. And it’s infinite.
Abby Wambach:
That’s cool.
Glennon Doyle:
That is so cool. That’s like happy, creative dissociation.
Abby Wambach:
You do it too. You never called it a palace.
Glennon Doyle:
You never said it’s cool.
Christen Press:
Oh, it’s so cool.
Glennon Doyle:
I think that’s magical. Think that’s magical. That’s so wonderful.
Christen Press:
And it’s like that’s what she does when she would be like, “Oh, I can’t sleep. I’m like anxious.” And she’s like, “Forget that I’m going to the Heath in London.” And she just walks around and she literally goes there.
Glennon Doyle:
I think it’s so cool.
Christen Press:
I just am a little jealous. I just can’t sleep and have anxiety.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. You’re in the anxiety palace.
Christen Press:
Yeah. I’m a palace, too. Okay? I have a palace too.
It’s more like a haunted house.
Abby Wambach:
A haunted house.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah, it’s when you turn on, We Can Do Hard Things-
Christen Press:
I do.
Tobin Heath:
… in the middle of the night.
Christen Press:
I do.
Glennon Doyle:
You do? What’s important about it to you? Why do you listen to it? Why is it important to you, this podcast?
Christen Press:
I think because-
Tobin Heath:
Oh, I love this question.
Christen Press:
… it’s real and it’s honest. And I think all of the topics are aligned with the things that I care about, bringing in the best experts in the world to talk from their heart rather than from their books. And I think you all do an amazing job of going beyond what’s comfortable to do publicly, really.
And actually it’s really hard for Tobin. I will play it in the house and she-
Tobin Heath:
Oh, I can’t listen to it.
Christen Press:
… can’t listen to it.
Tobin Heath:
No offense. I love you both. But it’s because I’m a seven, so when you guys are talking about feelings and all that, I’m like, why would anybody? I’ve actually not listened to any Pod Squads on my own except for Christen’s when she was on-
Abby Wambach:
Wasn’t it so good?
Tobin Heath:
And that’s actually the only one she hasn’t listened to. So we have a hundred percent participation in the Pod Squad and she did play the… This is really sweet of her, is that she’ll actually be like, “Oh, you’ll like this five minutes.” And she’ll play five minutes of We Can Do Hard Things for me on particular subjects that she knows that I will enjoy.
Christen Press:
That won’t be too scary.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I love that.
Christen Press:
That won’t be anybody dealing with any problem.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah. I’m always like, “Can you please put your headphones in?”
Glennon Doyle:
Tobin, I understand that. I do that with music. I listen to talk a lot. I’ll listen to some news from some shit on the radio because music does that to me. It makes me too achy.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I turn on Adele or Sarah McLaughlin and she is like, “Get it off! I can’t!”
Glennon Doyle:
Eddie Vedder. There’s certain people like Stevie Nicks, their voices make me want to crack open. And I am like, “Well, you have to warn me. I can’t.”
Christen Press:
Oh, I am all in for any form of entertainment that will crack me open. All the people you just named. That’s like a exactly my music genre.
Abby Wambach:
Same.
Christen Press:
I like sad shows. I love to cry watching TV. I just want it all.
Abby Wambach:
Same.
Christen Press:
So I am a very proud Pod Squad-er. I’m like, tell me all your problems and I just will cry right with you. And it feels so good.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah. You guys are doing amazing. It’s really incredible. I don’t know if people tell you that. I’m sure people tell you that a thousand times a day, but we’re going to tell you it.
Abby Wambach:
That’s sweet.
Tobin Heath:
We really appreciate everything that you brought into our lives.
Glennon Doyle:
We feel the exact-
Abby Wambach:
Like I said earlier on, and you said it too, Tobin, I really hitched myself to the correct ride.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, please. You need to know that one of my favorite things to do during the World Cup was to watch your show and then-
Abby Wambach:
The recap show was so good.
Glennon Doyle:
The recap show, which was so good. I texted Christen about this, but then I would try to memorize the things that you’d say, and then I would sit down at dinner and just say the things. And I would say all your words. And I would say the lingo, and I would say the defenders and all the things, and she’d be like, what the fuck?
Abby Wambach:
Listen.
Christen Press:
I love that.
Glennon Doyle:
It was three days until I was like-
Christen Press:
Yeah, I think a lot of people actually-
Glennon Doyle:
Are doing that?
Christen Press:
… did that because what we found? There was a big mission and there were kind of mini missions in doing this, right? And where we found it to be just incredible was when all of a sudden our voices started leading the conversation.
And I think where Abby can understand a little bit more than you, Glennon, but maybe you can, when you’re in a world championship or just a professional, you hear other people talking about the thing that you’re doing and there’s this disassociation with it. Those people have no idea what they’re talking about, but you kind of just accept it. And it was really powerful to bring in actual voices and perspectives of the people that were doing the thing and being able to actually bring in our culture, which I think is missing when we speak about the thing. And when we got to lead conversation, and there were some hard conversations within that World Cup, as you know, and I was really, really proud and it really affected my mission as a whole where I was like, this is actually really important.
Glennon Doyle:
Really important. I remember waking up and thinking, let’s see what they say about this. I was like, let’s just, before we decide what to think, let’s just check in with Tobin and Christen.
Abby Wambach:
Well, what was cool about you guys with the commentators and those who are talking at halftime, it is their job and they’re getting paid. And a lot of them are all former athletes, and so they are competitive as fuck. So they want to be the best at what they’re doing, and they all know in order to get re-upped for their contract, they got to say some shit. And so it is not as it appears, they’re not always speaking truth. They are speaking their perception of the truth so that-
Glennon Doyle:
Click bait.
Abby Wambach:
So that it can get clickbaited and all that. You guys brought a totally different perspective of not only having the ability inside of it, but also it felt like you guys were able to draw back a little bit, which I found so important. And I think it is a lost art or maybe never has been an art in the commentating world. There’s so many things that are going on and so many complications, and of course we’re all fans, but nobody… The commentators, they got asked a question, they got to respond in the moment. And I’m not excusing them, they’re just doing their job. And I just thought it was really awesome what you two did. And we definitely waited. I was like, I just can’t wait. I wanted to just get online and just be like, “Shut up.”
Tobin Heath:
But it’s like everyone thinks that that’s the truth, right? There’s three people that are talking about this huge thing that’s happening, and for most people, they’re not super educated in what’s actually happening. So then they’re just through that lens, they’re just saying those things.
Christen Press:
Yeah. I feel like I had a really interesting experience because I’m not a sports fan, so I literally never hear anyone talk about sports. I don’t watch any sports at all on television.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Christen Press:
So then, why in the world did I think I should talk about sports? I don’t know. I was brought on last minute to this show, but part of it was I think that the sports world that I grew up watching, I didn’t think it was built for me. And so it felt really important every single time Tobin was doing the creative for the show, that I would tie it to something that I cared about, which I think just made it more generalizable. And I think like a lot of women have felt, that the sports house isn’t built for them. So just us having our two different personalities allowed us to be able to speak differently to different people, and I think that was really important.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It feels like listening to the commentators on the TV that there is nothing sacred about it to them. That it’s all monetized. I will say the thing that’s the most inflammatory so that I… And with you two, it is clear that soccer is sacred to you.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s so interesting and true, but there’s something, we just trust you so much. Are you going to do the Olympics too? Are you going to keep doing the Olympics?
Christen Press:
Oh, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Share about the next iterations.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, what’s happening?
Tobin Heath:
Yeah, we’d love to. We have big plans for 2024, but really kind of franchising what the recap show is and bringing it to different ten pole moments and different sports and competitions. Because part of the mission was to never take a spotlight off what women’s sports are and to try to lead kind of the conversation of what content creation can look like for women’s sports.
Glennon Doyle:
So you’ll do your show, but with different sports?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Christen Press:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
All the sports?
Tobin Heath:
And different people.
Christen Press:
And different people.
Glennon Doyle:
And different people?
Christen Press:
Soccer is as far as I go. Okay?
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So they’re going to call in other people.
Abby Wambach:
Hold on a second.
Tobin Heath:
I think of all people, Christen could probably transition to other sports.
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s not do that to her because then she’ll have to become the best at it and then she’ll be so tired.
Abby Wambach:
No, listen. I think what you said earlier though, Christen is really important and it’s something that when I’m watching the Sports Now with Glennon, it’s important for me to know that her perspective and the way that she’s experiencing it is totally different than mine. And there’s 50%, probably more, of the people who are watching whatever sport you’re watching, especially women’s sports that are watching it in your way. So don’t count yourself out because who wouldn’t want to listen to Glennon Doyle commentate on a soccer game right now?
Christen Press:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
A lot of people wouldn’t.
Abby Wambach:
I would actually.
Christen Press:
Oh, for sure.
Abby Wambach:
It’s hilarious.
Christen Press:
I mean, Glennon, you taught me what offside was. This is a link-up. Always has been.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, I would die for Christen Press. It’s always been this way. This is how, from the very beginning, I knew from the first time I saw her running around on the field.
Christen Press:
Yeah. How did you know, Glen?
Glennon Doyle:
You can tell when she’s playing. Before I knew who she was before I knew, I could tell on the field, she’s the spirit spice. There’s something about your feet are flailing about and she’s floating along like a graceful swan. And then bam. I knew from the beginning.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Please allow us to come alongside you with all of these ventures. We believe so much in what you’re doing. This Pod Squad is full of people who would like to listen.
Abby Wambach:
If you guys want us alongside you.
Glennon Doyle:
Just tell us what you’re doing. Let us know all the things, because we want to support everything you do. We just think it’s so important and we adore you two.
Christen Press:
Well, thank you.
Tobin Heath:
Thank you.
Christen Press:
So sweet.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you for this hour.
Christen Press:
So happy to hang. What a joy.
Abby Wambach:
Thank you for this time.
Tobin Heath:
Double dates aren’t that bad.
Glennon Doyle:
Tobin has now experienced her first We Can Do Hard Things episode besides Christen… In short, was she not amazing on that episode that you listened to?
Abby Wambach:
Oh, I’ve listened to that episode five times.
Glennon Doyle:
It fixed people. It healed people.
Tobin Heath:
Yeah. That’s when I feel like she kind of transcends. I don’t even know if she knew what she was saying.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I cried during the episode. It helped heal my fear of death. You changed my life, for sure.
Christen Press:
Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
We love you both. Pod Squad, we will see you here next time.
Christen Press:
Tell Amanda I said hi.
Abby Wambach:
I will.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ll do it.