What’s Next for We Can Do Hard Things
August 3, 2023
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome to the last episode of this season of We Can Do Hard Things. We just discovered that there are seasons, that people-
Glennon Doyle:
… who do podcasts can have seasons where they stop and start again. We’ve just been going and going and going forever and relentlessly.
Amanda Doyle:
Nary a week off-
Glennon Doyle:
Nary a week off.
Amanda Doyle:
… to use some of Abby’s Victorian language. Nary a week off.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m excited because I actually do think and live in seasons, and for me, I always think of the end of the year as August and the beginning of the year as September, because that’s my teacher brain. I always think of September as the beginning of the year. We are going to take a pause after this episode you’re hearing-
Abby Wambach:
A brief pause.
Glennon Doyle:
… in your ear balls. We are going to take a pause and a little breather, and then we’re going to come back fresh in September to do another season with you of life.
Abby Wambach:
It’s very exciting.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And so we’ve all three, in preparation for this episode, we have been trying to think about what this season, which, for us, started in January, right?
Abby Wambach:
Really, it started two and a half years ago.
Amanda Doyle:
No, this season started in May of 2021 is when the season started.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. I am curious about how this episode will shape up because it feels like kind of a big deal because this episode is going to be the last episode of our season. When I say season, I mean we started this in season in January. That’s how I’m thinking of it. We’re ending now. We’re going to take a, okay, so what I call is a selah, a selah. That’s one of my favorite words, S-E-L-A-H. It’s a holy pause. It’s a breather.
Abby Wambach:
What is it, two weeks?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, a two-week selah where we just let everything soak in that we’ve learned and talked about and wrestled with this season, and then we’re going to start again fresh with our Pod Squad in September. Today, we’re going to talk about what this season has meant to us, and we’re going to ask you, at the end of the episode, to help us use this next two weeks to shape the next season by calling in, writing in. The number is 747-200-5307, or if you’re more of a writer and less of a caller, you could write to [email protected] and just let us know who do you want to hear from? What conversations do you want to hear? What is going on in your life that you are either struggling with or growing from that you want to share with the Pod Squad and have us all do together, because that’s what I feel like we’re doing. We’re just doing life together one week at a time.
Amanda Doyle:
It truly is a co-created podcast. We read every single review. We read every single comment, listen to every single voicemail. There is something really magical about us sharing our thoughts with you, you telling us the next step, the way you feel about it. It’s one conversation leading to another conversation, and I think that’s a really unique thing about what we’re doing here and that’s why it has been so magnificent. And so please keep sharing your thoughts with us because it’s definitely a co-created journey that we’re on.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. And so, today, each of us is going to talk about what this season meant to us and what the journey has been for us. It’s so amazing for us three to have this podcast because, for me, I should say, it feels like the ultimate accountability group. Some people have accountability groups that are one person or three, and I feel like our accountability group is the millions of Pod Squadders because when I think about, for me, the first episode of this season was the episode 165 when I talked about my diagnosis, I think it was called Glennon’s Diagnosis and What’s Next, in January. And I actually, in preparation for today, went on a walk and listened, from beginning to end, to that episode. And why that is a big deal, Pod Squad, is that I have never listened to a single one of these podcasts.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, first, I’ll tell you my experience. I was walking, walking, walking on a sunny day and listening to this emotional, very emotional … this episode was … I revealed my anorexia diagnosis and where I was with all of it. And it’s one of the most listened to episodes we’ve ever had, which is so, I think, scary to me when I listen to something that is so deeply personal, and then I have this other consciousness of thinking about how many people listen to it. That’s why I don’t listen, because I’m afraid it will scare me too much and then I won’t do it again, and I feel like it’s what I’m supposed to be doing on the earth-
Abby Wambach:
That makes sense.
Glennon Doyle:
… is living things out loud, and my job is to make sure … and I think everybody’s job is to figure out what their gifts, purpose, life is about, and then slowly try to eliminate all the things that threaten that thing from happening. And who cares what those are? If those are things that other people can do, but you can’t do because it might throw you off what your purpose is, then you just don’t have to do them, and that’s just the deal.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel a little bit, when I’m listening to myself, that I’m being haunted. I feel like I’m being haunted by some old version of myself that is still existing in the present for other people. Imagine, Pod Squadders, if there were just little teeny versions of yourself, like in high school and college and four weeks ago, just running around the earth that anybody could encounter at any time. It’s weird.
Abby Wambach:
What was it like when you were on the walk listening to it?
Glennon Doyle:
It was amazing.
Abby Wambach:
Really?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah,
Amanda Doyle:
Really? Because you don’t listen because there is something deeply unsettling to you about listening to your own voice, listening to these conversations. Even when we have to look at something, you look at the words and the transcript, you don’t listen ever.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. Okay. Here’s two things that I discovered. Number one, I don’t hate my voice anymore.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, that’s something,
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
I know. I feel like, when I was listening to that diagnosis episode, I was like, “You sound calm.” I felt all right about the way that I sounded. I also felt, you know what, I felt proud. I felt like, “Wow, that was a lot, sweetheart,” and I could sense the dooziness, the confusion and the shock in my voice, but I felt like, “Good job, honey.”
Abby Wambach:
Could you feel how much growth has happened for you since you recorded the episode?
Glennon Doyle:
No. I think this is why these things are confusing to me. And so I let myself off the hook of this being some sort of, “And then there was the journey of the season, and that’s who I was, and this is who I am,” as some linear situation because that’s what I was trying to do. I was like, “Okay. This episode has to be one where I reflect on who I was and now who I am, and I have to show progress.” And it kept not working and I kept not knowing what to do for this, so then I said, “No, no, no. This is just another snapshot. It’s not proof of anything. It’s not like I have to be different. I don’t have to show progress. I just have to reveal who I am today, and that’s all I have to do forever.”
Abby Wambach:
But when you listened to it the other day, did you notice a distance from that person you were in the snapshot of when you recorded it to the person you were when you were re-listening to it?
Glennon Doyle:
No, I just felt like, “Oh, she has been shocked awake, and I’m still awake.” That’s it. And then the other thing I noticed was how freaking beautiful you two are.
Abby Wambach:
Oh.
Glennon Doyle:
I felt like, “Oh, my God.” We probably get as real as you can in terms of a thing where you know you’re being listened to, because you are aware of that in the moment. I think sometimes you can miss how gorgeous the experience is of telling your things and sharing yourself and then having two of the most loving, brilliant, connected people on earth listening to it, and it felt very like, “Wow, this is special, and I’m lucky,” listening back.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s awesome.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, and then I listen to Tish’s song after, which sometimes I don’t listen to that. I have a very hard time. Sometimes I’ll walk upstairs and Abby’s playing Tish’s music and I’m like, “No, shut it down. You can’t just spring that on me.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, too much feeling.
Glennon Doyle:
You can’t just spring that on someone. I just allowed myself to be exposed to the whole thing and it was really, really beautiful. And so I don’t want to do a big progress report on the season. That doesn’t feel true to me, but I just want to tell a little story that I feel like is the truest I can come to the change in anorexia recovery for me. Okay. It has nothing to do with food actually. So little of this, it turns out, has to do with food. It’s about thinking and being.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s about everything else, including food.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, exactly. There has been progress in terms of that. My body is different. I’ve gained a significant amount of weight. I have slowly carried every single piece of clothing out of my life because none of it fits anymore. I have all of those things to report, but here’s the story I want to tell. Several months ago, we had a anniversary party for our parents, okay? The three of us planned a lovely 50th wedding anniversary surprise party for my mom and dad. It was at the restaurant where they had their reception 50 years ago. It was lovely, beautiful. I think there was, how many people were there, 30 people, just their best friends and our families.
Glennon Doyle:
And this interesting thing happened in approaching the day. Pod Squad, the thing about our family is that one of the ways, one of the major ways we show love, is through large productions of things, some sort of major toast, some sort of huge presentation, some sort of big offering that has required a lot of preparation, and then we offer it to each other, and it’s a beautiful fucking thing. It’s the thing that my friends have always been like, “Wow.” And-
Amanda Doyle:
It’s why it makes me want to jump out of my skin and roll under a bus every time someone stands up and is like, at the wedding reception, “I’m just going to speak from the heart.” I’m like, “You’re an asshole,” because it’s built into us. We’re Irish. The lineage is long with the, “I shall commemorate this moment with a oration that I have worked on and prepared and represents what this moment means in the full context of our ecosystem and your life, and here it is, and it’s beautiful.” Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a lot.
Amanda Doyle:
And that happens when my kids finish a basketball season, there will be something like that that happens with my parents, or when there’s an anniversary. Every occasion is appropriately marked or else it didn’t happen.
Glennon Doyle:
Right, exactly.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
This interesting thing happened on the way up to the party, which was that I wasn’t doing that. I wasn’t writing anything. I wasn’t preparing anything. And I was like, “Oh, this is weird. I guess I’m going to do it on the plane.” I wasn’t making my kids prepare something, which was like, “Wait, what the hell? What am I doing? This is crazy.”
Abby Wambach:
It’s a free-for-all.
Glennon Doyle:
This is a free-for-all. Then I-
Amanda Doyle:
This is how we got to this 50 years and now we’re throwing it away?
Glennon Doyle:
Right. Then I get on the plane and I’m sitting on the plane and Abby pulls out her computer and she’s going to watch a movie, and I’m like, “I want to watch that movie with her. I guess I’m watching a movie now.” And so I snuggle up and watch a movie with Abby, and then the movie’s over and I’m like, “I feel like I just want to read my book,” and I keep not writing anything. And I’m like, “What is going to happen? I am crazy. This is crazy.” Then I get to the party, and it’s a small party, and it’s in this beautiful old room. It’s where George Washington lived or something. I don’t know.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s called the Gadsby’s Tavern. It’s in Old Town Alexandria, and it is one of the oldest taverns in America. It’s where they got married and where also John and I got married.
Glennon Doyle:
Right, right. We get changed in a little bathroom at Gadsby’s Tavern because our family has flown in and gone directly to the thing, and I’m like, “Oh, I just don’t have anything. This is me not having anything prepared.” And so people start coming and they’re my mom and dad’s oldest friends, my Aunt Peggy, my Aunt Stephanie and my Uncle Keith, and all these people have been in our book, so I’m mentioning them, my cousin Beth, all of their best friends. And I’m just hugging all of them and being there.
Glennon Doyle:
And then we go into the room and I’m like, “I guess I have to say something,” and so I just stand up and say something welcoming like, “Hi everybody. It’s amazing that you’re here. We love you so much.” I think I say something beautiful enough about my mom and dad, and then I sit down, and I feel a little bit bad. I felt a little bit like, “Oh, God, maybe that wasn’t honoring enough, or maybe that wasn’t good enough.” And then we go through the evening and the rest is just beautiful and everyone’s having such a wonderful time. And I go up to my cousin Beth at the end, we finally get a moment together, and my cousin Beth, she helped raise us. We love her so much, and she has known me since I was a baby. And she said, “I don’t know. I’ve never seen you look so good and so calm and so peaceful,” and I was like, “Huh.” And then, okay, this birthday party was a surprise party, okay? My parents didn’t-
Amanda Doyle:
It was not actually a birthday party at all.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, oh, it was not a birthday party.
Abby Wambach:
It was an anniversary party.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, which is the birth of their marriage. Okay. Then my dad stands up, Bubba, at the end, and he gives a toast, and what I realize is something feels very different about the toast than what he usually does, and his toasts are usually the best thing in the world. They’re beautiful. He’s an incredible writer and good performer on things, but his toast feels different. I realize, “Oh, my God, he’s in the moment. He’s very vulnerable. His words are less clever, but more real. He’s with us. He’s a little bit emotional.”
Amanda Doyle:
He’s responding instead of performing.
Glennon Doyle:
Everybody’s emotional. He seemed so with us, and tender, and it touched me deeply.
Amanda Doyle:
It touched me too. I’ve never seen my dad like that in my entire life in delivering words to anyone.
Glennon Doyle:
And I realized, “Oh, my God, it’s because this was a surprise. He couldn’t prepare anything, so he couldn’t perform anything, so he had to be here with us. And because he was here with us, he wasn’t in his mind for the whole previous two hours preparing this thing that he was going to deliver to us, so he was with us.” And, after that night, all I could think about on the plane home is I was not amazing on that evening. I did not nail anything. I did not perform anything. I did not deliver anything, and I was so happy and I was so with the people who were there. And those people who were there, they noticed that, that I was so with them. And my dad, that night, was so with us, and what I realized is the shadow side of this feeling like you have to perform your love is that you are not with.
Glennon Doyle:
There’s all the beautiful parts of that and I’m not discounting any of it. There’s an end to that which has to do with worthiness. The idea that I was worth just being in that space as I was and not performing anything and not delivering anything and just being and that that was enough and perhaps the best thing, that that was the gift. My relaxed presence is, for me, the opposite of anorexia. And that’s what I am trying to undo in my life is the idea that I am not enough just as I show up and that I have to perform or be or prepare something else to be worthy enough of the space I’m in, and that love is not something to just drop into and be with the other, that love is something to perform.
Abby Wambach:
I think it’s interesting, because the way the world works is we all get trophies and awards and money for the performance of stuff, and then we all feel, “Why do I feel like I’m not really connecting with people?” And so it’s harder work and it’s, in some ways, unnoticeable except the way that you feel when you leave.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, and the moments that you have. I just think I wonder how many times I’ve been in situations where I’ve nailed something and people are like, “She’s good-“
Abby Wambach:
A lot.
Glennon Doyle:
… but I wasn’t there
Abby Wambach:
A lot.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, it’s like you said in Untamed, you can be shiny and admired or you can be real and loved. Those speeches, those, damn, those are gifts too, because if you have the ability to formulate in words what other people also want to express but don’t have access to, there is a virtue and a gift in that, but it also comes at a cost. The analogy is so strong. If you prepare something in advance, then you necessarily already know, or you’ve told yourself you know, what that situation calls for. You’ve told yourself, “This is the script, this is what I’m going to say.” Therefore, the time that you’re in and the people that are there and what’s happening in the moment have zero relevance-
Glennon Doyle:
Zero relevance.
Amanda Doyle:
… to what you’re going to say.
Glennon Doyle:
And not only that, but they can become a hindrance. The amount of times where I have felt like everyone has to be controlled and quiet and paying attention because I am delivering love to you, the people there can be a stumbling block to you performing your love for them.
Amanda Doyle:
And it affects the substance in that way. That’s one of the most profound family moments I’ve ever experienced in our family because it has always been shiny and impressive, always. And both my weddings, people are like, “Damn, those are the best wedding speeches by a dad I’ve ever heard.” And yet, like him in that moment, he would not have said what he said in that moment had he prepared it.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Amanda Doyle:
And what he said, he was talking about his relationship with my mom over 50 years, and he was talking about growing up and how his best friend, Uncle Tony, who was also there, who we didn’t know wasn’t our actual uncle until we were nine because we called him Uncle Tony our whole lives and then pieced it together, like, “Wait, who is he? Whose kid is he?” And, anyway, he’s my dad’s best friend.
Amanda Doyle:
He was talking about how my mom was like, “I want us to be best friends,” and how, for a solid decade, he had no fucking idea what she was talking about. He was like, “I have my friends. My friends are Tony. I don’t understand the words you’re using to talk to me about this,” And how, just in the past 10 years, he understood what it was to be in partnership with my mom as his best friend. And he was talking about her in that way in a really beautiful way, and people started clapping and he held up his hand and was like, “No, don’t clap. The point is I was late, I was late, but not too late.” And it was so beautiful-
Glennon Doyle:
And she said-
Amanda Doyle:
… and so honest.
Glennon Doyle:
And she said, “And not too late.”
Amanda Doyle:
And she said, “Not too late-“
Glennon Doyle:
“Not too late.”
Amanda Doyle:
… she said back to him. And that, for me, is so true and so real, and had he prepared it, he would’ve prepared a beautiful, gorgeous thing about my mom and all her virtues. But what was the truest thing about them is that they were true to each other and they fought through it and they worked it out, and it was late, and it was not too late.
Glennon Doyle:
And both.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s the best … we’re all going to be late. We’re all late. I am so late on so many things, and my only prayer is that I won’t be too late, that I’ll get to the place where I’m like, “I get it, I get it,” and I can be settled enough in myself to see it, and I think that goes back to actually being there-
Abby Wambach:
Totally.
Glennon Doyle:
Actually being there.
Amanda Doyle:
… actually being in it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. What I felt after that night was, “But that’s too good to be true. I can’t just-“
Amanda Doyle:
Show up.
Glennon Doyle:
“It’s too good to be true show up to just be there with my own non-amazing, normal self. What if that were true? What if that’s all I had to do? What if that’s all my people had ever wanted for me?” And I believe that that is the case.
Abby Wambach:
It’s true. It’s always been true, since you were born.
Glennon Doyle:
But that’s not what I’m shown. We can all be forgiven for thinking that that’s not what the world wants from us. What I listened to in that episode 165, in the beginning of this season, was that discipline was my God, control was my God, that I was in a religion of anorexia that had to do with food, but also has to do with everything else, the way that I love, the way that I live, the way that I work out, the way that I work, all the things.
Glennon Doyle:
And it had to do with the idea that, if discipline is your religion, then what is your God? What are you a disciple of? What are you trying to be with all this discipline? And I guess that that would have been some level of amazing or perfect, the discipline of perfection, or our culture’s idea of whatever that is, success-
Abby Wambach:
Achievement.
Glennon Doyle:
… all the shit, beauty, thinness, everything that the culture ever told me was success. And so then I was thinking, “Okay, what would I be a disciple of now? What would I be trying to go for?” And I told my therapist that the kids these days on the TikTok and in our house have this word called mid.
Amanda Doyle:
My dinners are usually mid according to my family.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s mid. It’s not great. It’s not great. It’s mid. It’s not going to get you arrested.
Abby Wambach:
But it’s not bad.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s not bad, but it’s not great. Mid is just like maybe even a hair below middle, and I told my therapist, “I think that’s what I’m going for now.” And I don’t mean bad. I’m not going to be bad. Listen, that party, it’s not not doing anything. It’s not caring. We planned that thing. We got our asses on planes across the country to get to that thing. We did the thing. My discipline is not fuck it, but it’s mid, which means just in the middle and just okay and just showing up, but it also means midst, in the midst. When you are not performing, you are in the midst of people and life, and it is a gift to you because you don’t have to do anything else. That’s why it feels too good to be true.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a new definition of responsible. It’s what we talked about a couple episodes ago. The word responsible is able to respond. If you already know what you’re going to do because you already perfected it six weeks ago in this moment, then you are not responsible because you are not able to respond because you are pre-committed whatever you’re going to do in the moment. And that’s why, with responsible, you are able to respond. You have done the groundwork. You couldn’t have been responsible in that moment had you just woken up on their 50th anniversary and said, “I’m going to come and see what comes to me.” You had done the work to prepare the party so that you could show up and be responsive in the moment that was called for. It is an and/both. It’s in this squishy middle. If you’re being responsive in every moment, then the moment you’re in is prepared for you, right?
Glennon Doyle:
I think so. I think that’s right, and I think that there is a way of living that I’ve been trying out these last few months that I think, if you are honest with your days and yourself, which means you’re just facing life for what it is and facing yourself, you are ready. I think, if you’re doing the work on yourself, you do come to each moment with this bit of respect for the other human being and gratitude for the experience that makes you prepared. It’s just a different version of being prepared.
Glennon Doyle:
I can see it with people now. I can see the old version of being prepared. I can see it on the podcast. I can see me a year ago. I can see the people that come and are like, “Come hell or high water, these are the 10 things I’m saying,” and I get that. I still do that. I get it. That is the same idea as coming to a conversation with your spouse and your partner and you’re like, “This is my argument and this is what I need you to know,” and you think that’s preparedness, and that’s not preparedness, that’s control. Preparedness is being prepared or being available or being responsible, is being so present that it’s a new moment you’re in and you can respond based on what the universe is requiring of you in that moment, not what you are requiring of the universe in that moment.
Abby Wambach:
It’s interesting that you’re putting it in this context. I’ve never thought this way before, but overly preparing is almost a turning away from yourself, not being able to actually trust yourself and be confident, and the worthiness, but it’s like also you’re preparing because you’re just like, “I don’t know. I don’t know if just me showing up is going to be enough.”
Amanda Doyle:
Is that what this whole “I am enough” thing … Honestly, I don’t really understand that whole, “I am enough. I am enough.” Everyone’s screaming, “I am enough.” I believe them. I don’t know what the fuck they’re referring to. Is the “I am enough,” if I have trust in myself and what I’m trying to do that whatever I’m bringing to this moment is enough? I am enough right now to rise to what the situation calls for or to sink into what this moment calls for, or whatever the hell. Is that what they’re talking about?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, I think so. I think maybe. I just saw a meme the other day that had a picture of an “I am enough” at one of those HomeGoods and it says, “Here, here’s how you can prove to the world that you’re having a nervous breakdown for only $12.” I am enough, I am enough.
Amanda Doyle:
But I think we all know that feeling of like, “It’s not enough. Whatever I just did, that wasn’t it, that wasn’t it.”
Glennon Doyle:
That’s the only feeling I’ve ever known. That is a person, and I’ve told this story before, when I’m in New York and I’m about to go to a meeting and I am scared shitless because I’m meeting a new person and they’re going to decide whether I’m good enough for this job or that job, and the agent says to me, “Are you okay?” And I say, “No, I’m scared,” and she says, “It’s going to be fine. Just be yourself.” And I say to her, “I don’t know how much longer I can keep that up.” That is what that is.
Amanda Doyle:
I wonder if that circles back to not hating the sound of your own voice, because I wonder if what we hate is to hear ourself pretending. I wonder if what we hate is to hear ourselves one degree offkey from authenticity.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. That is it. I just used to think, “She’s so scared.” I don’t like the performance of me. I think that’s why I had to get off stages for this year. I haven’t been on a stage for eight months. I haven’t done a speaking event in eight months. I am starting to see a light at the end of this beautiful tunnel of being able to do things again from a different energy. It wasn’t the thing that was the problem, it was me performing that was the problem. I feel like that is a new discipline for me is mid, I am a disciple of mid, and I think that that’s an interesting thing. It is a very interesting thing to be a professional speaker and a podcaster and then to be like, “I’m not performing anymore,” because one could believe, if they were me, that my job is to perform the rest of my life and be amazing and be whatever I need to be, and I’m actually not going to do it anymore.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m just going to show up, and my version of preparedness is going to be that I’m doing my work, and I respect so deeply the people that we’re inviting on here, and I have some curiosities and questions, and I am going to try to bring a version of myself that’s just a calm nervous system and not panic that I’m not enough, and not a performance. We have a episode that we just recorded, will be coming to you in September, with Adrienne Maree Brown that we just did. And this wild thing happened, which is Adrienne, who we respect so deeply, came on and she was so present, and I don’t know how to explain this other than, from the first moment I saw her on the screen, she doesn’t have to be prepared because she is prepared for every moment.
Abby Wambach:
How does that make you feel when you’re talking to her?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I started crying for the first time on a podcast. I started crying. It wasn’t because of what she was saying, it was because of the clarity that I could see, that she believed and knew with every ounce of herself that she was fully prepared for this moment in every moment. And it wasn’t because she was remembering some script or she was delivering some lines. It was because you could see in her presence what her life is like. She honors herself. She has amazing conversations. She reads, she writes, she’s so in touch with it. I don’t know. You could just sense who she believes herself to be and who she believes other people … She had this major compassion and kindness and it just made me cry.
Amanda Doyle:
But that is related also to your revelation of this year, which has changed so much for me, which is that every moment is the most important moment. That is inextricably linked to that because she was deeply attached to whatever was happening in that second that we were talking, without the underlying anxiety of, “Oh, but we’re going to get over here to my work about X, right? This moment’s nice and everything, but we’re going to get to Y and Z. I’m going to be moving this over here to this thing.” That is that trust. That is that being responsible, “This moment is so important and I am attached to this moment like it’s the most important thing in the world,” without needing to manipulate it to be A, and without sitting here thinking, “Oh, God, this is so stupid. I should be doing B.”
Amanda Doyle:
At least for me, those are two of my strongest compulsions are, “Okay, this is all nice and good, and I’ll give this about 45 more seconds before we get to A, which is what we need to be doing, or let’s get through this because I have B, C, and D that I need to be doing, and those are way more important than this.” And the dignity of that is related to I have a trust that this moment that I’m in is the moment I should be in.
Glennon Doyle:
And not a means to any other moment. And that means that people do not become means to any other thing.
Amanda Doyle:
And what’s unique about her is that it’s like she’s beyond the practicing of that as a discipline, which I still am. I’m like, “Okay, double down, this is the most important moment,” and I’m saying that to myself in order to ground myself at that moment, but I actually don’t believe it yet, the same way I am entertaining this idea of is it possible to show up and just believe I’m prepared enough? I’m entertaining that theoretically, but I don’t yet believe it. And so I think that she believes that. And so it’s coming out of her and she’s like, “I want to talk about Abby’s soccer. This is great. Let’s keep talking about that.”
Abby Wambach:
I know, and we were texting all through the soccer games afterwards. I think that what’s so interesting is we’re getting to the crux of, as we get older, to just surrender to what is and the vibration and trying to enter into the vibration of the universe that we are all just down here. It’s weird. And, when you are trying to control everything, it feels so constricting. And then when you give up that control and you open your hands and you get curious and you start to find yourself in the flow of life, you’ll bump into shit, but it’s less severe.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And that I want that to be my version of love. That’s the kind of love I was made for is just being here and being present. I have tried to be the version of love that is delivering something awesome for people, and it has made me very sick and very un-present and very scared all the time and trying to control the very people that I’m trying to love so that they can fucking accept this version of love I’m trying to shove down their throats. I don’t want to do that to anybody else or to myself anymore. I actually want to live my days in this ridiculously luxurious idea that I can just show up and enjoy other people-
Abby Wambach:
You’re doing it. Amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
… too. Enjoy the moment. Enjoy other people. Whatever that is is, to me, the opposite of anorexia. And slowly, throughout this podcast season, all of the people that we have been interviewing and the conversations that we’ve been having, my personal agenda in all of those conversations has been to get towards this idea, whether it’s Ross Gay, with the Delights, or Sonya Renee Taylor. All of these conversations have been an undoing of the performance and the control and an honoring of what is within myself and with other people. And I guess what it feels like is it feels like more magic. It feels like more awe. It feels like more peace. None of it’s perfect.
Abby Wambach:
At first, it was a little anxious for you two. It was hard. I remember early days-
Glennon Doyle:
Letting go of control is terrifying. It’s losing a religion.
Abby Wambach:
… it was really hard, especially the addiction part of it. You’re looking for any sign that that way of living was correct, and the way that you’re doing now is worse and that you’re getting whatever metrics you’re using. And so you had to be really patient with yourself. And having that front row seat has been really fun to watch because you are getting reaffirmed in the way that you feel rather than the outside world telling you what’s right or wrong.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Yes. Yeah. The world is not going to tell a woman who’s relaxing that she’s great, except for the people who love her, except for the only people who matter, those people that are going to finally meet her and be like, “Hi. There you are.”
Glennon Doyle:
What about you, sis? What do you think about when you think about this journey of this past year and the pod and all that?
Amanda Doyle:
I feel like there’s a few things. I have one thing that I think has shifted a little bit, and that is I feel like, when we started this a couple years ago, I was in a place where I wanted to want things that were going to feel good. It’s like a little kid being stuck in a house and being like, “You’re not allowed to go outside,” but I didn’t even want to go outside. I was like, “I wish I wanted to go outside and play. Nothing’s stopping me from that. Also, no one’s telling me not to go outside. I just don’t even want to go outside, even though I know that would be good for me.” And I feel like I’m just starting to catch glimpses of, “Oh, I actually want to go outside and play.”
Amanda Doyle:
And so, even in those cases where I either let myself or don’t let myself, it’s nice to want that because, before, I was just like, “I guess I’m missing that. Even that desire to feed that part of me, it doesn’t even exist in me.” And so now it’s delightful when I want that and sometimes I’m like, “Fuck it, I’ll go do it,” and sometimes I’m like, “No, I won’t,” but even to have that to grapple with is a nice thing because, before, I was just grappling with the shame and the, “You’re totally up because you don’t even want those things.” That’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
I think something that I am dealing with right now is just the very humbling reality that you touched on before about the myth of linear progress, that I feel like I’m circling around a lot of things. I’m circling around what it means to be human and to be alive and to desire play, and can I cultivate that, and my marriage and stuff in parenting and just general peace. And so I’ll get to this place where I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, look, I can look behind me and see it looks different than where I am right now.”
Amanda Doyle:
And then, suddenly, I make the turn and I’m just moving around the spiral staircase and the same shit over and over and over again. And so that can be disheartening because you’re like, “I thought it was going to be I keep trekking up this mountain and then I’m at the top, but, really, it’s just a spiral around the mountain and you’re seeing the same shit over and over-“
Glennon Doyle:
Same shit.
Amanda Doyle:
“… and you’re just an inch higher.” And so it looks exactly the same and it’s very frustrating, but I think even just like, oh, okay, responding to that, this is what is to be expected. This doesn’t mean that it’s all for naught You’re coming around the bend again, you’re going to see the same-
Glennon Doyle:
She’ll be comin round the mountain when she comes.
Amanda Doyle:
Here she comes.
Glennon Doyle:
She’ll be comin round the mountain when she comes.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m coming around the mountain and coming around the mountain and coming around the mountain again, so there’s that.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you for saying that. We were supposed to record this last week and I was like, “Oh, we can’t. I can’t. I’m fucked.” Last week I was fucked.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re like, “Progress report.”
Abby Wambach:
Bad.
Amanda Doyle:
Nothing to report
Abby Wambach:
Bad. Not mid, bad, very bad.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you. I was coming around the mountain last week.
Amanda Doyle:
And that’s why I think it’s good just to be honest about that, too, because it’s like, fuck, you can do all this and think you’re cruising, man, and then … it doesn’t mean you’re not cruising. It just means that cruising looks a little different than you thought it might look. And sometimes you’re definitely not cruising, and that’s fine too. Again, responding to your moment, being like, “This is where I am.”
Glennon Doyle:
Again.
Amanda Doyle:
“Okay. What needs to happen right now? Not given where I thought I should be, but where I am right now. What should I do with this, my own particular mess?”
Glennon Doyle:
And how long it takes. How long?
Amanda Doyle:
It’s so long.
Glennon Doyle:
I was thinking about what would my 15-year-old self who was going into the mental hospital for the eating disorder, dreaming of her future life, what would she have thought if someone had said to her-
Amanda Doyle:
She’ll be fine by the time she graduates. Man, I’m so glad we made this two-week investment.
Glennon Doyle:
The good news is, 15-year-old, when you’re 47, you’re going to start learning about this shit.
Amanda Doyle:
Just keep going around that mountain for 35 years, you’ll get there. Yeah. Again, we’re all late. We just hope we’re not too late.
Glennon Doyle:
We’re late, but not too late.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s all. It’s all, it’s all, and that’s one of the ways that I’ve been newly appreciating marriage. It’s like Suzanne Stabile says that the worst things about us are the best things about us and the best things about us are the worst things about us. Thinking about marriage and thinking about … Goddamn, it’s interminable. And then I’m like, “Hallelujah, it’s interminable.” Yes. I need a really, really long runway to figure my shit out. And, if the expectation was that we were going to button this up real quick, it wouldn’t happen for me. I’m built with a long runway. And so, in a way, that’s really frustrating that you’re like, “We’ve been at this for a decade-plus. What the hell?” But then it’s like we’ve had a decade plus and we’re still not there and we’re still working. That’s such a relief.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like I get to have the luxury of years to figure shit this out, and that is nice. It’s not like you’re going to get fired after your second eval because the needs improvement column hasn’t adjusted. That’s nice. On the coming around the mountain theme, and then I’m really psyched, I’m psyched out of my mind about this, to throw in an Elf reference reference for when we come back in September, I really want to dive into this concept of tension versus conflict because I don’t think I understood that correctly for a very long time, and I’m starting to have these ideas. I was just reading this business book that my friend Bonzo recommended, and because music has too many feelings, I just listen to business books, but-
Glennon Doyle:
Sounds awful.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. It’s, well, better than feelings. It’s called the Five Dysfunctions of a Team, and it is talking about tension versus conflict and about, when there isn’t a baseline of trust, meaning that the other person on the team, or the other people on the team, trust that you believe that they are capable of great things and that any of the conflict that you bring is brought in the interest of the team and isn’t a personal attack, that if you don’t have that level of trust, then no one will bring up conflict. But the absence of conflict means there is tension, because you either have no issues or you have conflict or you have tension. There’s no such thing as issues without conflict and without tension. You have to choose your own adventure.
Glennon Doyle:
And, also, isn’t there no such thing as no issues?
Amanda Doyle:
Well, in my experience, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Right.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m willing to keep it open-
Abby Wambach:
It’s people.
Amanda Doyle:
… for the “I am enough people” that maybe they have no issues,
Abby Wambach:
People, issues, yes
Amanda Doyle:
In my experience, there has never been a lack of issues. And so the idea of re-imagining conflict as that that is the work required to grow. That’s all conflict is, the work required to grow, and in order to have conflict that works, you need to have trust that I can bring anything to you and say, “Glennon, that thing we did last week, that was fucked, because whatever.” And you’re going to be like, “Hmm, okay, yeah, all right. Yeah. She believes in me. She loves me. She knows I do amazing work, and so she must be talking about how we need to address something on the team. Great, perfect.”
Amanda Doyle:
If you don’t have that, then you’re just going to exist in an inevitable sea of tension, and tension is the unwillingness to go to the work that makes relationships work, which is conflict, and it just comes out and it exists and it pervades everything. And so I really want to talk about that next season because I think that I have recognized that I have lived in a lot more tension than I knew, and that I have misdiagnosed things as other things that were in fact just a swimming sea of tension.
Glennon Doyle:
Cool.
Abby Wambach:
It’s like you have to have that basis of trust to be able to feel the safety in any kind of conflict. I also think that we just need to come up with a whole new word.
Glennon Doyle:
Me too.
Abby Wambach:
Conflict is just too … it’s too scary.
Glennon Doyle:
Negative.
Abby Wambach:
It’s too negative. We need a whole new word. And the trust piece, because this totally rings true with every team I’ve ever played on. We were so good at saying and giving feedback and getting feedback because we all just knew that we all had one goal in mind and we trusted that that was the most important thing, and it was like whatever means to be able to get to that bigger goal is necessary and you have to trust each other. It’s that stability that allows the conflict to flourish
Amanda Doyle:
And in friendships and in partnerships, it’s all that, right? If you don’t have the trust, then you intuitively know you can’t handle the conflict,
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
You don’t bring up the conflict and then you think, “Okay. Well we don’t have the conflict, so that’s good,” but you’re not recognizing that you have a stew, that your entire relationship is marinating in tension-
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
… because you can’t just avoid the conflict and avoid the tension.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
No, tension is just conflict that’s all holding its breath. Tension is internalized conflict that no one is externalizing,
Amanda Doyle:
Which then that tension completely undermines whatever trust you’re trying to build, so you could have the conflict-
Glennon Doyle:
Totally.
Amanda Doyle:
… because that comes out in passive-aggressive, fucked up ways, the tension does, because it won’t just cease to exist, and so then it’s this cyclical nightmare where you’re never even going to develop the trust that allows you to have the conflict.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly, because tension, to me, is louder than conflict.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, god, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I can feel tension. Conflict, to me, is talking, and tension is screaming. Neither of these things are hiding. They’re all present. You can feel all of them.
Amanda Doyle:
If you’re lucky. I think you have developed a healthy relationship with conflict, which is why tension feels toxic to you. I think the vast majority of us are so normalized in tension that the worst-case scenario is it doesn’t feel like shit to you. The worst case scenario is it feels normal and typical and this is just what life is.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right. That’s how I grew up, and honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever been in a relationship before in my life that I trusted like you, and so I’m able to actually have conflict with you. I’m able to bring up conflict with you, and it’s because of that trust factor, but in almost every other one of my relationships, I’m just tense. I’m just eating it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Wow.
Abby Wambach:
I love that. That’s exciting.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s a doozy of a thing. I’m excited to get into that. That’s perfect.
Amanda Doyle:
I think it relates to everything too.
Glennon Doyle:
It does.
Abby Wambach:
Totally.
Amanda Doyle:
I think it relates to responsiveness. If you’re actually being in the moment, then you’re like, “Ooh, I sense this thing, I’m responding to it,” and it’s not like I didn’t have a preconceived idea, coming in and saying, “I’m going to perform this thing or I’m going to get this done.” It’s like, “Oh, wait, we have a thing here. We have a thing here. I’m going to say the thing.” It all goes back to that same idea.
Glennon Doyle:
All right, babe, what do you feel about this season of the podcast of We can Do Hard Things and in your life?
Abby Wambach:
I think what’s so beautiful is to watch how much it’s changed, the three of us. And this year specifically, for me, I loved our Tracee Ellis Ross episode, and then one of the more recent ones that’s been really digging into my bones and my DNA is episode 226, July 11th, the Enneagram, Why You Are The Way You Are, with Suzanne Stabile. All of our conversations, they leave impacts and they leave marks on us, and watching you go through this year, I’ve been able to see up close, and in some ways, it’s like a mirror for me of how I have been responding to you over the years. I’ve noticed, and I’ve really realized, the first couple years of our marriage, we were so in love, and at the time, I really believed that we were meant spiritually, soul to be together.
Abby Wambach:
And I still believe that, but at the time, I thought that you were my other half, that you were fixing me, that you fixed my issues, and this year has made me perfectly aware that we found each other so that we can help each other heal our issues and become more fully human. Watching you go through your therapy and talking about it, I’m usually a couple of months behind you doing things because I like to have somebody else Guinea pig for me in some way. Sorry to compare you to a Guinea pig, but I don’t know, I just remember, early on in our marriage, I was so attentive, and I was a part of your anorexia and your anxiety and the way that you worked in the world, and I was trying to cushion you from the world in some ways, so when your anxiety would come up, I was right there to fix it.
Abby Wambach:
And I’m good at that. It’s something that I feel good about myself for being able to help people and fix some of their issues, but what I didn’t know was I was enabling you to not get well in some ways. And I think that your step towards healing and the trust in the foundation that we’ve built over the years, it made me start to really look at myself and maybe some of the things, some of my shadow sides. In the Enneagram episode with Suzanne, anger is something that sevens don’t really have a relationship with, and that couldn’t have hit me more squarely in the face if she had tried. It’s one of the most true things somebody has said to me in a long time. I’m always silver-lining everything. And I think one of the reasons I feel like and I’ve found this year that we have found each other is because we both need to fall more deep in love with our own selves.
Abby Wambach:
We found the person. We built the foundation of a marriage. We have the trust to create not a separation, but to create a space for each other to develop a deeper love for ourselves and a deeper understanding for ourselves. And so, after the Suzanne episode, I decided, “Okay. I’m going to get into therapy and figure out some of the shadow sides that I like to not explore.” I’ve been in therapy before in my life and it’s like meditation for me. I do it and then I don’t do it, and I’m committed to doing some therapy on trying to become a really full human. I feel lucky, I have a beautiful life, and there is a part of my personality and my existence that I don’t tap into. I don’t tap into my anger ever. I did it on the soccer field. I really did it on the soccer field. I could make up a story of what that other team was thinking and get pissed about the story that I thought that they were thinking
Glennon Doyle:
I do that every day.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. I’m like, “Oh, that’s a crazy idea.”
Abby Wambach:
You know.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what my whole shower is every day.
Amanda Doyle:
I do it every time I drive past someone.
Abby Wambach:
And, for some reason, I haven’t been able to develop that in the real world since retiring, and I think that, eventually, it can come out sideways.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, I wonder if that was your channel, Abby. I wonder if that was like you didn’t have to feel anger in any other parts of your life because you just funneled it all over here in soccer where it was very effective and useful to you in that way, and you’re able to expel all of that from your body-
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, for sure.
Amanda Doyle:
… just maybe not at the source-
Abby Wambach:
For sure.
Amanda Doyle:
… those poor people who received it, but then you just let go of that whole expulsion area and you were just left. It’s not like the anger went away.
Abby Wambach:
For sure. I just think that this podcast has changed my life in so many ways, thinking about the way that I think about things, thinking about the information we hear from all of the guests. I feel like, bit by bit, it’s changing me in this really beautiful way, and it’s the way that I kind of think about athletics, the way that like I did it bit by bit every single day. And I think that that is something that, even if you’re not implementing anything that you are listening to, it’s getting in here. It is getting in here in my DNA and it’s giving me other ideas and other options around the way I might want to be in the world.
Abby Wambach:
Just even stuff that’s happening with our kids, I notice the way that I respond is different than I would have five years ago. I would’ve been a lot more reactive rather than contemplative and then have a proper response. I just think you two are my favorite people, for sure, and to be able to do this is such a gift, but, honestly, we’ve had so many brilliant people on this podcast that are changing my life, and hopefully those who are listening, and I feel an immense amount of gratitude. And I feel really excited, I have therapy today.
Amanda Doyle:
Ooh, really? You’re starting today?
Abby Wambach:
Well, I started last week and-
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, my gosh.
Abby Wambach:
… and it’s very exciting. She asked me on Friday, “How would the people in your life describe you?” She was asking me so many cool questions, and now we’ll be able to get into the meat of my life. I’m not like in crisis. I’m not like, “Ah, something’s wrong! Help!” I’m like-
Amanda Doyle:
You’re just coming around the mountain.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, I’m coming around the mountain and I’m just trying to figure out if there’s something I’m missing that could make me live a more content life.
Glennon Doyle:
We love you, Pod Squad. We really do. We really feel so grateful. Your time is so precious and that you choose to spend these hours with us every week is not something we will ever take for granted. We will continue to bring our full selves.
Abby Wambach:
Mid, our full mid selves.
Glennon Doyle:
Our full mid selves, right. If you-
Amanda Doyle:
I can’t promise that. I plan to bring my excellent self.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, dear God.
Abby Wambach:
Me too. I don’t buy it. I can’t do the mid shit. When she says it, something in me is like, “No, I can’t.”
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Well, that’s great. Thank you for-
Amanda Doyle:
We’ll circle around you up there. You’re just a little further up the mountain.
Abby Wambach:
I’m not saying you’re wrong. This is my problem. I think that you’re right. Like I said a few minutes ago, I’m a few months behind you. Give me a few months.
Glennon Doyle:
And I’m so excited. This is where I thrive because my teacher self gets to plan the next season. Please help. Tell us who you want to hear from. Tell us what you want to talk about. Talk to us. We are at 747-200-5307, or [email protected]
Amanda Doyle:
And, for the next two weeks, we have four podcasts that profoundly impacted us personally. We are explaining why those podcasts impacted us so much and then re-airing them after that explanation. For the next two weeks, come back and listen to the four podcasts that just whoa, whoa, whoa’ed us. And then, after those two weeks, we will be back on September 5th with our brand spanky hanky spanky new season.
Glennon Doyle:
We love you. We’ll see you next season. And, until we come back, don’t forget that we can do hard things. Bye.
Amanda Doyle:
Bye.
Glennon Doyle:
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you’d be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you, because you’ll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you’ll never miss an episode. To do this, just Go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you’re there, if you’d be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 Studios.