THE WORLD CUP WITH ABBY: Inside Her Most Stunning Moments & 2023 Predictions
July 20, 2023
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. This is what we are calling World Cup Week. Because-
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my jam.
Glennon Doyle:
… we are going to get the Pod Squad completely ready for the most exciting, important sporting situation-
Abby Wambach:
Event.
Glennon Doyle:
… event on the planet. The most important and exciting sporting event on the planet is coming up and the Pod Squad needs to be ready. So what you need to know, Pod Squad, is that in preparation, I did sit down with Abby at a table and said, “I really think it’s important that we highlight the shit out of the World Cup. And so I want to brainstorm who we should have on to talk about the World Cup.” And Abby Wambach did sit with me for 20 minutes. I said, “I want somebody who knows the ins and outs. I want somebody who has been there, who has had the highs, who has had the lows, who will take us into the moments of the World Cup.” Obviously we already had Rapinoe. We’re going to bring on the precious warrior, Sophia Smith.
Abby Wambach:
After, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It took 20 minutes, but Abby did say, “I’ve been to the World Cup.”
Abby Wambach:
What about me?
Amanda Doyle:
Put me in, coach.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God, lovebug. We have the queen of the World Cup, the queen of our hearts, who is here today to give us every single bit of background information, all of the juicy details, the highs, the lows, the thrill of victory, the agony of defeat.
Abby Wambach:
How many more cliches can you throw into this conversation?
Amanda Doyle:
A lot more. I’m putting money on.
Glennon Doyle:
We’re going to leave it on the field. We’re going to throw some Hail Marys.
Amanda Doyle:
I’ve been reading articles about Abby.
Abby Wambach:
Which is so ridiculous.
Amanda Doyle:
No, it’s not. It’s thrilling. And I feel like I owe you an apology. I feel like I should have been walking around like, “Abby, remember when that woman punched you in the face during that game and the refs missed it, and then you had to go in for that goal with the swollen shut-eye, and then you made it, and then you pointed at your eye? You’re such a badass.” I should have been saying these things more to you instead of my, “You’re such a good sister. I love you.”
Glennon Doyle:
She’s such a badass. Abby today is going to tell us some beautiful stories and get us ready. Because nobody can get a squad ready like Abby Wambach. Actually, do you want to give us a little pep talk? Pretend we’re in a huddle. Do you have huddles in soccer?
Abby Wambach:
That’s what you do. You huddle up.
Glennon Doyle:
You huddle up, you circle up, circle up, Pod Squad. Give us a pep talk. You’re Captain Abby Wambach and we’re about to go on the field. What do you say?
Abby Wambach:
All right. So here’s the thing. This is a huddle up for the listener. This sporting event is going to be riddled with so much drama. There’s going to be ups, there’s going to be downs. You are going to see some of the most amazing footballers play this game to their maximum. And what you’re about to hear is an old player who played the game to her maximum. But I just am so excited because this is going to be the most competitive World Cup you’ve ever witnessed.
Glennon Doyle:
Really?
Abby Wambach:
You’re going to learn and know more about some of these younger national team players for the US that are coming up. And you’re going to see some magic. And I think that one of the reasons why people love watching our women’s team play in big events like the World Cup is because we have a really good chance of going far and winning.
Glennon Doyle:
So that’s different than with the men.
Abby Wambach:
Very. And no disrespect to the men.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Abby Wambach:
But our women’s team is a powerhouse. When you go to watch the game, your central nervous system can come just little because we will likely have an advantage, and it’s going to be fun to watch.
Amanda Doyle:
The advantage of excellence.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m so excited.
Abby Wambach:
That was a terrible huddle up by the way.
Glennon Doyle:
I thought it was great. Let’s fucking go.
Abby Wambach:
I could do better.
Glennon Doyle:
That was great. We’ll give you a chance to do another one at the end. I want to talk about the first time you made it onto the World Cup team.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Amanda Doyle:
Can we stop for a second? And just for the novices among us, we have the Olympics and then we have the World Cup. Is the World Cup like the International Super Bowl of football/soccer, but similar to the Olympics, it only happens every four years, correct? The first World Cup took place at 1930 and it was created because, at the time, soccer was not part of the summer games.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, interesting.
Amanda Doyle:
So it was like an alt to the Olympics.
Abby Wambach:
And just for reference, the Olympics allows the women’s teams to play, but they only allow a younger version of the men’s, so as to not cannibalize in a way the Olympics, because the soccer teams would get so much more publicity and excitement.
Amanda Doyle:
Interesting.
Glennon Doyle:
You had played in college, you were playing on a professional team.
Abby Wambach:
After college.
Glennon Doyle:
After college you were playing on a professional team. And then you were in the national team camps.
Abby Wambach:
Pool.
Glennon Doyle:
Pool. Explain to us what that means.
Abby Wambach:
Essentially what happens is, for the most part, it’s a little bit different now than it was when I was going through, but the national team has youth national team programs. When I was going, it was 15, 17, 18, 19, 21, and now it’s a little different. I’m not sure the exact age groups that they have now, but it gives younger players an opportunity to play with other players around the country to then one day become a national team player. Now the senior national team is compiled of a group of national team pool players. So the coaching staff, general manager of the national team, they have a list of players, which essentially is what the national team pool is, and then they pull from that pool to bring in players for certain camps, for certain rosters.
Amanda Doyle:
How do you get put in the pool?
Abby Wambach:
You are scouted, you’re scouted from the time that you’re a young kid all the way through college. And then when you get on a professional team, that is really where a lot of the players are getting now pulled from us. Now that we haven’t really established a great professional league, it’s an easier way for the national team coaches to identify players on a week by week basis, depending on what’s coming up. There’s one player on the team right now that she’s actually never played for the national team, but she made the World Cup roster because of her performance on her professional team. Savannah DeMelo has yet to actually suit up and get a cap for a women’s national team. Savannah DeMelo, congratulations.
Glennon Doyle:
Go, Savannah.
Amanda Doyle:
One day you’re sitting around and you’re playing on your professional team, and do you get a call from someone that says, “You’re swimming in the national pool now,” how does that work?
Abby Wambach:
Usually you get a call-up to a certain camp. Throughout the year, the national team has international dates where they can train and then play games, usually at the end of those camps.
Amanda Doyle:
Those are the friendlies?
Abby Wambach:
Correct. Friendly games are games that are real games, but they don’t matter. There’s no tournament, there’s no prize at the end of it. So the national team coaching staff, I bet, are in constant communication with the coaches in the NWSL, and also players who are playing in foreign leagues, US national team players who are playing in foreign leagues. They’ll call the coach, talk about the player, and then after they’ve seen enough quality from that player, they will get in touch, either by phone call or email, letting that player know that they’re going to get called into the next camp.
Glennon Doyle:
All the soccer people, if they’re in a pyramid of people, then they’re trying to get higher and higher. They get higher if they’re playing professional, and then the best of that gets pulled up to the national team.
Abby Wambach:
Correct.
Glennon Doyle:
So then the national team pool is there, but once you’re on the national team pool, that doesn’t mean you’re getting picked for the World Cup, so only the tippy top of people, determined by the coach that year or staff, get chosen for the actual World Cup roster.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Tell me about when you finally get… You’re holding your breath, what year was this, when you first made the World Cup roster?
Abby Wambach:
2003.
Glennon Doyle:
2003. Take us back to that moment. 2003, Abby Wambach’s first World Cup.
Abby Wambach:
So I was playing-
Amanda Doyle:
20 years ago.
Glennon Doyle:
20 years ago.
Abby Wambach:
I was playing on the Washington Freedom, which now is the Washington Spirit, in the former WSA league. And the head coach, April Heinrichs, she called me and asked me to come to her house, she lived like an hour or two outside of DC, because she wanted to discuss the World Cup roster. And I was very excited and also nervous. I had been playing with the national team for the prior two years. I was getting called into camps, I was getting left out of some camps, and so I was in and out.
Glennon Doyle:
And who was on that team, that we would know?
Abby Wambach:
So Mia Hamm, Julie Foudy, Brandi Chastain, Kristine Lilly, some of the veteran iconic women that you’ve probably remember watching in the ’99 Women’s World Cup. I drive my car to my head coach’s house, and I was very nervous because I was either going to make it or not. And so I walk into her house and I’m 22, 23 years old at the time, I’m very scared, I’m very nervous.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re a baby. You’re a baby.
Amanda Doyle:
Can I emphasize how incredibly scared I am?
Abby Wambach:
I was very nervous. And I walk in and she says, “Are you hungry?” And I’m just like, “Yes.” Nervous energy. So she makes me a ham sandwich.
Glennon Doyle:
A Mia Hamm sandwich. She makes me a ham sandwich. Sorry. Go ahead.
Abby Wambach:
And she sits me down and proceeds to let me know that I have made the final roster for the 2003 Women’s World Cup. And so I was so excited. And just so everybody is clear, when you’re getting called into camp, it is of my mind, at the time I’m one of the younger players, I’m new, I’m just trying to break into the scene. Every single camp, every single meeting, every single time we are in a group of people, I am doing a headcount in terms of how I see everybody on the team and where they lie on the numbers system.
Amanda Doyle:
Of course.
Abby Wambach:
And I think at the time, only 21 players made that roster. And so I kept getting to the 20th and 21st player and I’m like, “I think I’m right there.” I was seeing myself just getting in, just getting in by the skin of my teeth. So I’m on the team, she tells me I’m on the team, and then she proceeds to tell me that I’m going to start.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Abby Wambach:
That I’m a starter.
Amanda Doyle:
How many people start on soccer field?
Abby Wambach:
11. You have 10 field players and a goalie. Because the whole previous two years I was getting called in and sometimes I wasn’t even getting sent to games and playing in camp. What did I know? But I was playing so well in the league and Mia happened to be on my team, I got so lucky to get drafted to play on the team that Mia Hamm was on.
Glennon Doyle:
So she was on the freedom also.
Abby Wambach:
In the professional league.
Amanda Doyle:
So you had the chemistry with her that you could play together. So it’s like, where Mia goes so does Abby.
Glennon Doyle:
It was like Taylor Swift and Gracie Abrams or something such as that?
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly like that.
Abby Wambach:
Something like that.
Glennon Doyle:
Abby was Gracie.
Amanda Doyle:
I got that.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, God. She tells me that I’ve made it and I’m going to start. I was excited, I made it. And then I was terrified.
Amanda Doyle:
I was happy for 30 seconds before I knew.
Abby Wambach:
I was just happy to be there. Your first time going to one of these big events, of course, in your best highest self you want to play, but also I don’t want to fuck it up. I don’t want to get out there and ruin it.
Glennon Doyle:
And you’re playing with all of your heroes.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh God.
Abby Wambach:
It was intense.
Glennon Doyle:
So she tells you that she believes in you so much that she’s going to start you. Then you go back to your Washington Freedom team, and what happens after she tells you that she believes in you?
Abby Wambach:
I score a ton of goals, we end up winning the WSA championship.
Glennon Doyle:
And one thing that-
Abby Wambach:
I scored the game-winning goal. I was the MVP
Amanda Doyle:
She’s like, damn I should’ve told Abby that earlier.
Glennon Doyle:
But that’s a good point.
Abby Wambach:
Words of affirmation work very well for me.
Glennon Doyle:
I always say, “I love how you cooked tonight. I love how you do the dishes. I believe in you.” But Abby said to me when she was first telling me this story, “You should always tell people ahead of time. If you believe in them, tell them ahead of time.” Because it puts this extra pep in your step. Tell me what happens when you’re preparing to go to the World Cup? What does that look like for a person?
Abby Wambach:
Well, it’s very different now, but you got to pack for a whole month being on the road. And you’re going from different place to different place, different city to different city. You get a whole ton of gear from the sponsor of the national team. I was just decked out in all the World Cup gear. And it’s very cool, especially when you’re young, you’re wearing all the crests and stuff very proudly, because this is a dream come true. I watched the ’99 World Cup women’s team play and win at the Rose Bowl when Brandi ripped off her jersey after she scored the penalty to win that World Cup for the US. And I was 19 watching that. I remember being like, “That looks cool. I think I want to do that. I want to do that for a job.” And so my whole life had been about soccer. So this was the pinnacle, this was the big tournament. So I was thrilled, excited, and also terrified. I had a role, I had a big job to do also.
Glennon Doyle:
Take us to the Germany game.
Abby Wambach:
It’s the semifinal game. So to win it, you go to the final, to lose it, you go to the third place game. Just so everybody’s understanding, the World Cup, for me at the time, it was like I wanted the veteran players who had just won the previous World Cup, I wanted them to re-experience that. And for me as a person, I can’t just do something for myself. I will superhuman myself for us, for the group, for the whole. And so we get ourselves into the semifinal game against Germany.
Glennon Doyle:
And have you been playing that whole time you’ve been starting?
Abby Wambach:
I’ve been playing. I think I’m actually the leading scorer on the team.
Glennon Doyle:
Good job.
Abby Wambach:
I’m doing well, I’m having a pretty good World Cup, for especially a young player. And Germany is one of the best teams in the world. They had this player, Garefrekes, who just was very tall. So on all of our defensive set pieces, we’re defending corner kicks and we’re defending free kicks.
Glennon Doyle:
Hold, please. A set piece is like where they know what they’re going to do. It’s like a set piece is like a scene where everyone knows their lines and then the rest of soccer is improv.
Abby Wambach:
There’s a foul. There is a foul and the ball is set. And so then there’s a play that happens to try to score a goal. And so Germany ended up getting a corner kick at the very beginning of the game, and the entire scouting of Germany was that Garefrekes, this tall player who was my mark, the person that I am trying to prevent from scoring. Everything goes to the back post, everything goes to the back post.
Glennon Doyle:
What does that mean?
Abby Wambach:
Meaning, if there’s a corner kick, they serve the ball to the very furthest post. So there’s two posts in soccer-
Glennon Doyle:
Of the goal.
Abby Wambach:
Of the goal. There’s the front post and the back post, and all of their service was going to the back post, that was the scouting report that we got. And so they told me, “Garefrekes will stand on the back post. You mark her there.” First corner happens. Garefrekes is standing on the front post on the near post. And so I’m of two minds, meaning I don’t know what to do.
Glennon Doyle:
Your coach has told you to be in one place and you can see that you should be in another place.
Amanda Doyle:
This is the set part of the set piece. But she’s fucking up the set.
Abby Wambach:
This is an ad lib on Germany.
Glennon Doyle:
They called an audible.
Abby Wambach:
They did, yes. So I look at Julie Foudy, who’s the captain of our team, and I was like, “Jules, what the fuck do I do? She’s sitting on the near post.” She goes, “Stand in the middle and do both. If it goes near post, get there. If it goes far post, get there.” I’m like, “All right.” So I’m not touch tight, meaning I’m not as close to Garefrekes as I need to be. Long and the short of it, they kick the corner kick and this kick is on a rope, meaning it is driven very quickly and I couldn’t get to Garefrekes. She heads the ball, scores a goal.
Glennon Doyle:
Dammit.
Abby Wambach:
And we’re down, one to zero.
Amanda Doyle:
She Wambached you.
Abby Wambach:
Exactly. It was my mark. She scored. I fucked up.
Glennon Doyle:
So you fucked up, it was your mark that scored the goal, you’re the baby of the team. Your whole dream is to give this to the 99ers again, and you feel as if you have lost the game for the team. The whole World Cup. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
This is the quarterfinals or the semi-finals?
Abby Wambach:
Semis.
Glennon Doyle:
So now they were supposed to go to the finals if they won this. And so take us to you when that game ends and you have lost.
Abby Wambach:
So we actually lose the game by more than one. Because we were trying to push forward for a goal and they countered and scored a couple goals on us. I’ll never forget that night as long as I live. I remember feeling like I was in a bad dream. I was going to wake up from it because it was the worst possible outcome that I could imagine. I was so upset after the game, I was inconsolable. I was so upset that I wouldn’t get out of the shower. I was just sitting on the ground in the shower, crying. The coach actually ended up telling somebody else to stay behind, because the team was already on the bus and I was in a really bad place.
Glennon Doyle:
You were throwing stuff.
Abby Wambach:
I was livid. I felt completely responsible. And it was the most devastating thing that I think had happened to me up until that point in my life.
Glennon Doyle:
Did anybody say anything comforting to you or helpful that you remember? Or was it just quiet?
Amanda Doyle:
Or not comforting or not helpful to you?
Abby Wambach:
I’ve learned this more now. We don’t bullshit each other. It’s not like, “You’re fine.” No, it wasn’t that. It was just like, “This sucks.”
Amanda Doyle:
That’s a kick in the teeth.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s honorable.
Amanda Doyle:
It really is. It’s not patronizing. Every time anyone strikes out at Bobby’s team and I always scream, “It’s okay.” And then the whole team looks at me like, there’s nothing worse you can say than it’s okay.
Abby Wambach:
Not for nothing, not many people know this, but my livelihood depends on how well I do in the World Cup. Even in perception. I’m leading the team and scoring for the World Cup, but now I’m thinking I’ve fucked up my whole career. This one play is going to now define me. It was horrible. It was a horrible feeling. I knew that the older veterans were considering their retirements at this point. They were getting older and I didn’t know if this was going to be the thing, but they ended up continuing on and playing in the 2004 Olympics.
Glennon Doyle:
The next World Cup is 2007. I asked you about 2007 and your response was as follows, “I don’t want to talk about it. Next.” So I guess we’re skipping 2007, right?
Abby Wambach:
It was a shit show. Not a good time.
Glennon Doyle:
2011. I want you, my love, to preface that amazing moment in 2011 that so many Pod Squaders will actually know, the game against Brazil, but get us there.
Abby Wambach:
It’s the tournament in Germany and Europe is known to have a lot of football, soccer knowledge. FIFA was at the time putting more money than they ever had into the tournament. So the German fans came out in droves. It was really incredible. It felt more professional than any other World Cup I had been to. It was like, “This is how it’s supposed to be.” We had done pretty well throughout the tournament and we find ourselves in the quarterfinal game against Brazil. We’re in Dresden.
Glennon Doyle:
Who’s on the team?
Abby Wambach:
Megan Rapinoe. I think that that might have been Megan’s first World Cup. Megan, Chris Rampone, Shannon Boxx, Carli Lloyd, Ali Krieger, Rachel Buehler was on the team. Heather O’Reilly, Lori Lindsey, Kelley O’Har, she’s on the team now. A lot of old school folks. I feel like, for sure this game changed my life. And had I known it was going to change my life, I would’ve probably decided to be way more nervous for it. But I felt pretty confident. The previous World Cup, Brazil beat us in the game knocking us out of the World Cup.
Amanda Doyle:
And it was a butt kicking too. It was a humiliating one.
Abby Wambach:
They killed us. And just food for thought, they’re very fun before and after the games, Brazil, they’re beating drums, they’re being really rowdy and excited. And so after we lost in oh seven, the national teams, because in the later rounds they play in certain stadiums and FIFA would house us in the same hotels.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t know if that happens anymore, but I’m clear it doesn’t happen on the men’s side. And so when we lost to Brazil in oh seven, we were in the lobby with our friends and family getting consoled, sad, upset. We just got super humiliated by Brazil. They just kicked our ass.
Glennon Doyle:
Is that why you didn’t want to talk about 2007?
Abby Wambach:
A little bit.
Glennon Doyle:
Sorry. Sorry.
Abby Wambach:
No, it’s totally fine. Brazil’s team bus drives up and they’re beating their drums, and it was one of those circular doors where there’s three sections and if you touch the door, the door stops, like that little thing. They got their entire team inside the circular door and they went round and round while we were in the lobby crying.
Amanda Doyle:
That is hell.
Abby Wambach:
And I’ll never forget that feeling, because we all just had to sit there and watch them celebrate in front of us. And so here we are playing against Brazil, fast-forward 2011 in Dresden.
Glennon Doyle:
Does that make you extra, as a team, just freaking ready to play this game? Have you been waiting for this moment for four years to finally kick Brazil’s?
Abby Wambach:
And so here we are, we find ourselves… We go up early in the game, an own goal gets scored, so we’re upped one to zero. And then it’s freaking crazy, but we end up getting a red card in the 60th minute.
Glennon Doyle:
What?
Abby Wambach:
Rachel Buehler gets a red card and we go down a player.
Glennon Doyle:
What did she do?
Abby Wambach:
She got a penalty, but the referee deemed Rachel Buehler last player. Meaning if you foul somebody and you’re the last defender that prevents somebody from an opportunity from scoring a goal, then that’s an automatic red card.
Glennon Doyle:
Pod Squad, a red card is when you get a really serious timeout and you have to go to the sideline and think about what you’ve done
Abby Wambach:
For the rest of the game. It’s an ejection.
Amanda Doyle:
It was like, an hour you were playing a woman down, that means one less player on the field for an hour?
Abby Wambach:
Because at the time you don’t know if you’re going to go into extra time. This game, we ended up going into overtime, because they score a goal, they tie it up, we end up going into extra time against Brazil. We’re still playing down a man. Shannon Boxx was by far, in my mind, the MVP of this game. Because she was playing a holding center mid and a center back. So when we were in attack, she’d push up high and when we were defending, she’d get back on her back.
Amanda Doyle:
God bless her.
Abby Wambach:
She was a miracle that day. And so we get ourselves into overtime. Brazil scores on a corner kick. Marta does what Marta does, she scores this ridiculous goal. And we’re losing two to one, and at this point, the game, essentially, if you scored overtime in the world of soccer, that’s like, you’ve done it.
Glennon Doyle:
So the whole world was like, “Brazil’s got this. It’s over.”
Abby Wambach:
Especially, because we’re also still playing down a player.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re down a player, so-
Amanda Doyle:
And how far into the overtime is this that they scored their goal?
Abby Wambach:
They scored in the first overtime. And then the game is counting down. There’s two minutes left, and one of the Brazilian players goes down with an injury. And I’m going up to the referee. I’m like, she’s wasting time, she clearly walks over and then falls to the ground.
Amanda Doyle:
Because she’s like, “If I can eat one of these two minutes, we’re good.”
Abby Wambach:
And so they bring out the stretcher, she gets on the stretcher, and as the stretcher leaves the field, she jumps off the stretcher and runs to the middle of the field to get called back on the game.
Amanda Doyle:
What a rascal.
Abby Wambach:
Here’s what ends up happening, because the player goes down with the injury. Now the referee puts on two minutes of injury time in extra time, which is pretty rare, at the time, now they do tons of extra time in the World Cups and whatnot. It’s like a 120th minute, 121st minute.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s supposed to be over when?
Abby Wambach:
120. So the referee is playing on for a few minutes because of this perceived injury and the time that it took for her to get off the field.
Glennon Doyle:
And you’re screaming what at your team?
Abby Wambach:
I’m screaming, “One chance.” I was not willing to let myself believe that we were about to lose. It was not happening. “Just one chance.” So on our own goal line, which is where our goalkeeper is, our goal line, Christie Rampone fouls the Brazilian player, I’ll say it. She fouls a Brazilian player and gets the ball, but the referee doesn’t call it. She gets the ball back for us, and there’s 10 or 20 seconds left at this game, that’s how we’re feeling in the moment, and we have the entire length of the field to go.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a very big field.
Abby Wambach:
So Christie Rampone gets the ball, passes it out to Ali Krieger, wide right. Ali gets the ball and plays it to Carli Lloyd in the center of the field, a little bit towards the midfield. Now Brazil is dropping all of their players back. So there’s tons of them getting more towards their own goal to protect their goal.
Amanda Doyle:
They’re getting their drums ready. They’re like, “We got this.”
Abby Wambach:
Exactly. Carli gets the ball, she dribbles it a few times across the center of the field and then plays it out wide to Megan Rapinoe, who’s now in the left side of the field and probably 60 yards away from the goal line. Megan takes a few touches, looks up, looks down, and then proceeds to play, I think, one of, if not the best, balls and assists in a World Cup, period. She just bombs. She just hits the fucking shit out of this ball. And I’m watching her, because I’m on the front line, it is my job now. The ball is in the air, I get a read on it. I get an instant knowing where that ball is going to go.
Abby Wambach:
And for whatever reason, the Brazilian goalkeeper thinks that she can get to it, so she comes out. And by the way, this entire game, the defender who was marking me was doing a fantastic job, marked me out of the entire game. I couldn’t get my head to anything, on every set play, on every corner kick that we had, she had my number that day. And all I kept thinking was, “Don’t fuck this up.” And then I see the keeper come out, I see the keeper’s hands come across my face and she misses the ball. And I’m like, “This is coming to me.” This ball is coming to my head and the keeper is out, it is a wide open goal.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Abby Wambach:
And for whatever reason, I can’t remember.
Glennon Doyle:
You can’t remember.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t remember. I don’t know if it’s because I closed my eyes or if God was on my side, but as the ball strikes my head, all I know is I need to head it, I can’t just let it hit me, I need to actually head it. So I jump, I rise up, it is a perfect ball, it is perfectly on my head. Everything is right. I head it and I open my eyes and you hear the crowd go, because they see this whole moment and they see that the goal is wide open. I heard the crowd fucking explode. And instantly I thought, “Oh my God, it hit the wrong side of the net. It went wide.”
Glennon Doyle:
You don’t know what they’re exploding for.
Abby Wambach:
Because it’s so loud that I was like, “Oh my gosh.” And then I realized I saw the ball go into the middle of the goal. It went in. And we just tied this game in the last few seconds. And I remember I peeled out and the next thing I know I was sliding. I was doing one of those knee slides, but the field wasn’t wet anymore.
Glennon Doyle:
It looks so painful.
Abby Wambach:
Well, here’s what happened. I’m knee sliding and in this stadium, six inches off the sideline, there’s a concrete path that I see, so I have to pop up to my knees, otherwise I’m going to scrape up my knees. And as I stand up, I slip on the concrete. And this is when the dog pile happens.
Glennon Doyle:
And the crowd is going crazy. And there are moments, if you Google it, there are video, internet compilations of bars all over the world losing their minds after Abby scores this goal and the announcers going, “Wambach has saved the USA’s life.”
Amanda Doyle:
Well, right before that, the dude who was doing the payments commentary was like, “This will go down in history as the US’ most disappointing loss of the…” And three seconds later he goes, “Can you believe it Abby Wambach has saved the United States of America.”
Glennon Doyle:
So you stand up and then Rapinoe comes to dog pile.
Abby Wambach:
So there’s a, there’s a dog pile though. Our whole bench clears and they’re like freaking out on the sideline with me. But Rapinoe was so far away and probably did her own celebration, just like, “Fuck yes.” It takes her a little bit to get to me. So our little dog pile separates and we’re starting to run back to the center line to start the game again. And Rapinoe runs up to me and jumps into my body, she jumps onto to me so hard that it hurt me.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re like, “My knees. Not my chest.”
Abby Wambach:
It was mayhem, and by the way, we’re still playing down a man. We have to start the game again to get the game to go into penalties. We have done nothing. We just tied the game. We end up getting to penalties. We win in penalties. Moving on to the semis.
Glennon Doyle:
Tell me what you said about you knew your life had changed. Why did you know that your life had changed from that goal?
Abby Wambach:
My agent, after that game, was like, “We’re getting quite a bit of inbound calls.” And the way that professional sports work, especially for women, endorsements happen the most around these World Cups. And so I realized my life had changed after that game in the post-game friends and family party, that Dan pulled me aside and was like, “Look, people are calling.” Big names, national sponsorships are getting called in and I just was like, “Holy shit.” He was begging me to get on Twitter. “Please start a profile.”
Glennon Doyle:
But that wasn’t the finals.
Abby Wambach:
No, we hadn’t won anything yet. We just won that quarter-final game sending us to the semis against France. We ended up winning against France.
Amanda Doyle:
You also scored on the penalty kick of that game.
Abby Wambach:
I did.
Amanda Doyle:
And that goal was the latest scoring goal in World Cup history.
Abby Wambach:
At the time.
Amanda Doyle:
122 minute goal. When I was reading, Abby, I had no idea about this. I knew that it was… I have a painting of it in my house, I know it’s a huge deal in the world, but I didn’t know what it did for US soccer, that goal. I was reading soccer historians and they said that that goal in Brazil helped significantly. They point to that 122nd moment to reignite the sport of women’s soccer in the US. And that right after that goal, the day after, the US sent dozens of media to like-
Abby Wambach:
Dozens of media and potential sponsors.
Amanda Doyle:
That were just sitting out the World Cup, they weren’t even attending. And because of the number of people who watched that and started demanding and talking about it, in response to that, they sent their media to cover it. And then that led to the resurgence. It’s wild, to think about this moment from your individual perspectives, your individual players, then the people that it impacted, then the way that the world responded, and then the demand initiated by your goal, meaning that all of these little girls have opportunities they didn’t have before because-
Glennon Doyle:
Because your head was in the right place.
Abby Wambach:
It was a wild moment of my life. Everything changed from that point on. And I was also completely aware that we hadn’t won anything yet. That was just a game. And then we had to go play France, we won against France, and then we found ourselves against Japan in the finals, which at the time was an upset, Japan upset Germany to get into the finals. I remember watching the Germany-Japan game going, “Oh my gosh, this could be a fairytale.” I felt very confident playing against Japan in the finals and winning.
Glennon Doyle:
You did. So then tell us just a little bit about that game and how it ended.
Abby Wambach:
We fucking lost.
Glennon Doyle:
That was a little less than I was hoping for.
Abby Wambach:
We end up going up a goal, Alex scores a goal. I think that I told her that I was in love with her. I remember that moment very vividly.
Amanda Doyle:
Just a headlight, People will cover this podcast, People Magazine. Abby Wambach admits she was in love with Alex Morgan.
Abby Wambach:
I did that twice.
Glennon Doyle:
Alex is probably used to that happening though.
Abby Wambach:
I did that twice in her career. One game when she scored against Italy to actually send us to the World Cup. She came on and scored a very late goal, baby horse. And then this one against Japan in the finals. And it’s a weird thing because our coach at the time, Pia, she’d never wanted to… At the end of a game, when teams “park the bus,” is what they call it, which means you just defend and just put numbers behind the ball and make it really hard for them to score. Pia never wanted to do that. She’s like, “Just keep playing.” And so “All right, here we are. We’re just going to keep playing. This is how we do it.” Well, Japan gets a corner kick at the end of the game and Sawa scores a goal, sending it to extra time.
Abby Wambach:
So here we are again, having to go into overtime in a finals of the World Cup. We had just done an overtime with Brazil two games before, that went into penalties. And it’s weird because I scored a goal in overtime. So I was about to score the go ahead goal and then Sawa comes back and scores again, or I actually don’t know if she scored the first goal, but either way. In a matter of a few minutes, I went from probably winning the Golden Boot, the Golden Ball, and probably the FIFA Player of the Year in 2011. Sawa scores, ties it, sends it to penalty kicks. We end up losing in penalty kicks. I think because we had done penalty kicks two games prior and they knew was happening.
Glennon Doyle:
What happened after that game?
Abby Wambach:
Just as a little context, the tsunami in Japan happened earlier that year and they had a massive devastation. So this team was really trying to win in honor of those that were lost during the tsunami-
Glennon Doyle:
And they were probably a symbol.
Abby Wambach:
… all the devastation, and it was just this beautiful moment. So here they are, they win, and I immediately run over… Because a lot of us who are playing we have friends on the Japanese team, because they’re playing in our professional league here, so we know a few of them. Sawa was on my team, so I ran over to Sawa and I congratulated her. And all the cameras, I don’t know this at the time, but all the cameras were on me as I went over and I congratulated each and every one of the Japanese players. And so I think that the folks in Japan thought that I was super honorable for being able to do that. And ironically, I ended up getting called to go over to Japan to do a lot of game shows over there. I was like a superstar in Japan.
Glennon Doyle:
She was. So babe, this is now three World Cups. This is what I think is fascinating when Abby tells me these stories, is when people probably think of superheroes, they think, “They must have always been winning.” But this is three World Cups that Abby’s been in, and each one have led to the agony of defeat.
Abby Wambach:
The worst.
Glennon Doyle:
I just think it’s interesting.
Amanda Doyle:
It is interesting.
Glennon Doyle:
We think people who are great are always winning. And that’s not the way careers or lives go, usually a lot of not that.
Abby Wambach:
A lot of people are like, “Oh my God, you won so much.” And while that’s true, there were also three World Cup tournaments that I played in and lost.
Glennon Doyle:
So now, lovebug, take us to 2015. We’re going to circle back. You go to that meeting with April. April tells you you are on the team and you are starting. Now we’re in 2015. You get the call, they say you are on the team, but-
Abby Wambach:
I make the team in 2015, and I’m 35, I’m old, getting slower. Coaching staff calls me in and informs me that my role of starting for a women’s national team is now going to change and that I would be coming off the bench.
Amanda Doyle:
Was that a surprise to you, Abby?
Abby Wambach:
Yes. I had the wits about me, at the very least, I feel grateful for this, that I excused myself. I said, “I’m going to need to come back.”
Glennon Doyle:
Good for you.
Abby Wambach:
I’ll be back in a few minutes.
Glennon Doyle:
God, that’s so wise.
Abby Wambach:
And so I went into my room and I threw a bunch of shit around. Because, though deep down I knew this was the right move, I was hoping that nobody was seeing what I was feeling. I was hoping that nobody knew that I was slowing down and that maybe I wasn’t going to be able to play 90 minutes. And the way that the World Cup works is your group stage games, if they end in a tie, then they end in a tie. But as you get into the knockout round stage games, you have to go into extra time and potentially penalty kicks to determine the winner.
Abby Wambach:
And there’s no way at my age I was going to be able to play 120 minutes. And so our coaching staff really wanted me on the field at the end of the games to ensure we could continue winning or to push for a goal. And so that was a devastation like no other, because like I said, my income earning power is based on not only minutes played, but goals scored, being on the field and getting recognized, all of that really matters. And so I felt like, “Oh shit, this is going to be bad for me.”
Amanda Doyle:
And it’s also a signal of like, you’re now on the backswing. You’re no longer at the prime, you’re coming down from whatever height was your height.
Abby Wambach:
In the climb of life I’m now on the downside. And that’s sad for a lot of reasons, but I didn’t know how to be on the bench. I knew that you could be a good bench player and I knew that you could be a bad bench player. I have examples of both.
Glennon Doyle:
What’s an example of both? Not people, I mean behavior.
Abby Wambach:
Being a good bench player is cheering for your teammates while they’re out there, it’s getting water for them, it’s communicating during halftime what you’re seeing on the bench so that you can help those players be more successful. A bad bench player is somebody who just sits on the bench and pouts and crosses their arm and says no words.
Amanda Doyle:
Got it. And slightly delights in bad things, because they think-
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
… if they were on the field, it would be different. And that’s evidence that they should be on the field.
Abby Wambach:
That’s exactly right. And I realized, when I excused myself from the coaches, when they informed me that I was going to be a bench player, I realized I had a choice. I could be a good teammate or a bad teammate, and I wish that I could sit here and say that I’m such a good person that I chose to be a good teammate. But I actually played out both of those paths to the end, and I saw what was going to be the thing that allowed us to be champions, and it was being a good teammate. As a veteran player, I knew that I had a lot of respect of the players who’d be on the field. And I knew that if I actually believed in them and I was positive and affirming of what they were doing, that they would play better. I just knew that in my bones.
Abby Wambach:
And it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life. It is not easy sitting on the bench and truly believing, and truly cheering on the players who you want to be on the field. You want to be out there making a difference and scoring the goals. And I think that when I look back now, the thing that I’m most fascinated by is that everything that I had yet to learn about leadership was in fact sitting right there on that bench next to me. As we grow in our jobs, in our lives, with our children and our families, our roles change. And the way that we see ourselves has to be more honest, I think. And because I was able to be truly honest with myself and also competitive, I wanted to win, I hadn’t won a World Cup. How ironic.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s the ultimate competition. You’re like, “No, I want to win, so I’ll do anything, even eat my own ego.”
Abby Wambach:
I had to actually live and breathe all the things that I was saying throughout my whole career. Everybody matters and we need all energy pointing in the right direction.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m going to test these hypotheses that I’ve been preaching for 20 years.
Abby Wambach:
But the irony is, I spent three other World Cups on the field playing in almost every minute of every game for our team, and I couldn’t win. And then here we are, with this opportunity for me to sit my ass on the bench and then we go on and win the fucking thing. That is a slap to the ego if I’ve ever heard one.
Glennon Doyle:
Or maybe you were exactly what was needed. Tell me some of the strategies that you used to lead from the bench, because you have actually passed these down to our kids, they do them now.
Abby Wambach:
I made myself do a bunch of stuff proactively to make myself feel like I had more power than just sitting on the bench. So I texted three players every single day, a veteran player, a middle range player, and a bench player. We called ourselves game changers. It was a psychological tactic of our coaching staff to… I don’t don’t know, I get it, we’re bench players. So I texted three players every single day, when we’re on the training field, something that I saw that really awed me and made me so fired up. In fact, one of the players that I had texted, a couple of days before playing Germany in the semis, was Kelley O’Hara, who was also a game changer, a bench player with me. And she ended up going on the field and scoring a goal as a game changer, scoring a goal, putting us up two to zero, and literally giving us that go ahead goal, sending us to the finals.
Abby Wambach:
And after the game, she came up to me and she was like, “Dude, that was all you.” And I was like, “No, wait. It was not.” She did this awesome karate chop kick, it was like she just lunged her body in this very awkward, amazing way and scored this goal. And I know deep down that a lot of players stepped up in that World Cup. Carli Lloyd had an incredible World Cup. Alex Morgan had an amazing World Cup. Megan. But I also think that there was this team collective unity that we were just going to win. And in fact, we got into the finals of that World Cup and Carli just went off, she scored three goals in the first five seconds. In the first 20 minutes of the game, we were up three to zero. I think we ended up winning five to two or something. But I was on the field at the end, and when that final whistle blew, I fell to my knees, just stunned.
Glennon Doyle:
And what was the overriding feeling in that moment?
Abby Wambach:
Relief. Every single championship I’ve ever won, it was just relief.
Glennon Doyle:
Isn’t that so interesting? Tell me what the relief was.
Abby Wambach:
That I won’t have to spend the rest of my life fucking pissed off. Honestly.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s real.
Abby Wambach:
Swear to God.
Glennon Doyle:
Relief that she doesn’t have to spend the rest of her life miserable and pissed off. That’s amazing, because that is truly how she felt, that if they didn’t win a World Cup, the sad thing would be that the rest of her life would be terrible.
Abby Wambach:
Because here’s the thing, logically I know that my life would not have been terrible, but that is the mentality that you have to have.
Glennon Doyle:
Absolutely.
Abby Wambach:
The way that these tournaments go, there’s so many factors that are out of your control. Another team plays incredible, the referee, whatever, the temperature, the field, the rain, I don’t know. There’s so much that’s out of your control, and so you have to create a controllable world, psychologically. And so it’s like, “I’m going to be fucking miserable.” That’s pretty motivating. You know what I mean? At the end of a game and you are exhausted you think, “This is just temporary. I want to prevent a forever misery by this temporary pain that I’m feeling right now.”
Glennon Doyle:
So you win, and you’re not on the bench anymore, but you learned how to lead from the bench and now you lead from home. If you knew how many texts and messages this woman sends to, whether it’s Christen Press, or Becky Sauerbrunn, or Alex, she’s constantly. And I want to tell you that last weekend our youngest was in a big soccer tournament and they lost this heartbreaking game. They’d made it really far and they’d lost. And we were on our way home and Emma was on her phone and I said something to get her off her phone like we do. And she had been texting every single… All the girls on the team, just saying how proud she was of each of them and what they had done. And it was only because she sees Abby doing that. It’s just the most beautiful form of leadership. I just think that you are so wonderful.
Abby Wambach:
Well, there’s a little audacity in it. I know that none of these players need my input. I know that. I actually believe that they are capable and strong, the current team that’s going in 2023. But I also know how important it is for them to know that we are here for them. In any instance, if they feel like they need us, and by the way, they would never text me and be like, “I need to talk.” That’s not something that would happen. It’s just like, “Saw the game. Keep going. I love that run. I love that goal.” Whatever it is. And as a forward, the way practices are organized, you spend a lot of time with the other forwards, because you’re training that.
Abby Wambach:
And so when other forwards are doing really well, or I can see maybe a little need for a confidence boost, I’ll just send a text. A real quick, “Keep going.” Because I know what Alex was doing when she was 21, 22 on the team, scared out of her mind about playing in the World Cup or the Olympics, and I know how daunting it can feel to be in the biggest tournament, and also how overwhelming it can be, and just to give one or two pieces of focus on your touch, that can drown out all of the overwhelm, if you just focus your attention on one or two small things that you can do every game. And also it makes me feel like I’m still a part of it. That’s also, it’s not just for them, it’s also for myself.
Glennon Doyle:
Pod Squad, we are watching the World Cup. We are going to be leading from the couch.
Abby Wambach:
The US Women’s National team kicks off their pursuit for another Women’s World Cup Championship tomorrow, Friday, July 21st at 9:00 PM Eastern, 6:00 PM Pacific, against Vietnam. In the US the live broadcast will be on Fox and Fox Sports 1. Y’all tune in.
Glennon Doyle:
Did you say it starts at nine o’clock?
Abby Wambach:
6:00 PM Pacific.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh God. Thank God. I love living in California.
Abby Wambach:
But there is one game that’s going to be a midnight start.
Glennon Doyle:
I can do one. I can do one. Pod Squad, we will see you on the pitch.
Glennon Doyle:
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