MEGAN RAPINOE: A Legend Says Goodbye to the Game
July 13, 2023
Glennon Doyle:
All right, Pod Squad. Today we have the Megan Rapinoe. The Megan Rapinoe of the soccer. The Megan Rapinoe is the two time World Cup champion and Olympic gold medalist. Megan is a vocal leader on and off the pitch. Megan helped lead the US Women’s National team to the 2019 Women’s World Cup Championship. Megan took home the tournament’s two top honors, the Golden Boot for top scorer and the Golden Ball for the best player in the tournament. A New York Times bestselling author, Time one hundred’s most influential people, and recent Presidential Medal of Freedom Award recipient. Megan is an advocate for equality for all. Megan and fiance, Sue Bird, huge fans, launched A Touch More, a production company focused on promoting narratives around revolutionaries who move culture forward, which is very fitting for these two. Megan, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. You have done a couple of them. Well done.
Amanda Doyle:
I feel like we should just spend the next hour letting you rest, Megan. That would be the best use of… In honor of Megan, we’re just going to take an hour of quiet where she can sit.
Megan Rapinoe:
I’m just going to go lay down in my bed.
Glennon Doyle:
You can just talk about her.
Abby Wambach:
Well, happy belated birthday. I know you just celebrated.
Megan Rapinoe:
Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for having me on. Appreciate it.
Glennon Doyle:
What’d you do for your birthday?
Megan Rapinoe:
Well, I was in sports camp, so they let me pick the meal menu, so that was a thrill. I got the obligatory banquet room birthday singing. It’s actually, Emily Fox and I share a birthday, which I’m, to be honest, thrilled by because I’ve had my birthday in this environment for like 84 years straight, and I’m like, “You know what guys? It’s okay.” Put it there, put it to someone else. It was good. Overall good. It’s a sports camp birthday.
Abby Wambach:
It’s the worst. It’s the worst.
Glennon Doyle:
But everybody relates to that.
Megan Rapinoe:
It’s the worst.
Glennon Doyle:
Even Megan Rapinoe gets the shitty office, shit cake birthday, that’s what happens.
Megan Rapinoe:
We did have churros. I’m also the fourth birthday in the line of all of these birthdays that we have. Alex had a birthday, Crystal has a birthday, I had a birthday. Our window has shifted a little bit because World Cup’s a little later this time. So normally we would have, there’s all these summer birthdays, so I’m at the end of this pack, and so it’s, “Happy birthday…” And I’m like, “I know, you guys. I didn’t ask. I told you you didn’t have to sing it to me.” But then people are like, “Well, we have something. Happy birthday.” So there was a candle stuffed into a churro for Foxy and I.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
You could do worse than that. Churros are good. So it was just 4th of July and our little family, it’s in our kitchen. We live in a place where there’s lots of happenings, celebrations, people in red, white and blue cowboy hats just all over the place. And the kids and I and Abby are just having a bit of a surreal experience, which so many families have, and have had forever in the country, but we’re just confused about exactly what we’re celebrating and for whom, because the idea of celebrating freedom and equality is not for our family, especially right now. Especially forever, but the recent Supreme Court, it’s just so in our face right now. And I just really want to ask you about what it means to you to represent America right now, especially right after such a public moment of regression. How do you, Megan Rapinoe, who is always on the side of equality and justice for all, what does it mean to you to go out on the pitch in red, white, and blue?
Megan Rapinoe:
It means a lot to me to be able to do that, actually. I’ve always taken, albeit probably a very different type of pride than we’re used to in seeing supporting the red, white, and blue and all the flag code violations that happened two days ago. But it means a lot to me because I also represent America, and I also represent our ideals and the things that we say that we want to be in, and frankly, the things that we arrogantly claim to be. I represent gay America and I represent women in America, and I represent allies of Black people in America, and immigrants in America, and that’s how I represent. That’s what I’m trying to represent when I pull on the shirt. And I always really put it into the context of the team when I talk about it like this, because it’s hard to pull myself out of that from such a young age and being on the US women’s national team for so long and wearing the shirt for so long, representing the country abroad, domestically, all of it.
Megan Rapinoe:
I try to leverage America against its itself. And I think the team has been so successful whether explicitly or implicitly, leveraging America against itself because you do love coming and cheering for us and you always have. And even when we were doing and saying and just being things that we don’t always value in this country, historically, we haven’t valued. Obviously the recent severe backslide and just the radical enthusiasm with which the Supreme Court is defending people’s right to discriminate against people. It’s just crazy. I think you’re getting it wrong. I appreciate your fervor, but I think you might have it backwards. I’m pretty sure your job is the opposite. I think you’re supposed to be radically defending people’s rights, but whatever.
Glennon Doyle:
Whatever.
Amanda Doyle:
Good idea, bad execution.
Megan Rapinoe:
Bad execution. I don’t understand where this went wrong. But I think for me, what I always try to do is to not allow people to look away from all that is America, from who all America is, from all of the things. Being a country that wants to have freedom and equality, and it doesn’t mean we all have to believe the same things, it doesn’t mean we all have to be the same thing. I don’t need you to know exactly what my experience is to be able to understand it and to respect it. You can just believe me, and I can just believe you, and you can have your rights and I can have mine.
Megan Rapinoe:
So I feel like that is why it means a lot to me to represent the country and to represent voices that aren’t heard, or aren’t able to be heard, or don’t quite have that platform. And I think being able to leverage this platform that is the women’s national team, always have access to the media, always have access to the fans, always have access to a public display of a particular kind of patriotism that I personally think is more in line with the words and the ideals that we have as a country.
Glennon Doyle:
Is your hair a sign of your public display? Because I’ll tell you, I did. I said, “All right, children, I’m going to go out with you into this 4th of July hootenanny, but I’m wearing my pride shirts.” It’s like, I will be there, but I will have a signal that I am a safe place for anyone who who is uncomfortable-
Megan Rapinoe:
It’s a safe space.
Glennon Doyle:
… with this America celebration. So I think of you in your uniform, but then your hair, which to me would be like, “But she’s not that kind of America. She’s on this side of America.” Is that part of it or am I making that shit up?
Megan Rapinoe:
I think it’s all in there. I think there’s a part of me that has just always had a deep need to express myself and to be myself. It’s not really so I can stand out from other people. This is just the way that I feel comfortable, doing this is the way that I like, from the way that I dress, to tattoos that I have, to my hair, to everything. And I hope everybody feels that. I think that’s the goal. If you want to have curly hair have it, if you want to have a ponytail, if you want to have short… It doesn’t really matter. But I think just allowing people the space to do that. And I do think that me doing this as the person that I am, as a player that I am with the platform stature or whatever you want to call it, does elbow out some room for some other people.
Megan Rapinoe:
And it’s like, I can see that. I can understand that that’s possible. The same with Crystal having box braids with blue in it or people wearing their hair in different types of ways. It’s like, “That is possible.” This wasn’t always something that you could see on the national team. And so, a really explicit form of individuality I think is part of it. And there’s just part of it it’s like, “I think blue hair is cool. I think different color hair is cool.” My hair’s short, so there’s not so much you can do with it and it doesn’t really matter. It’s just fun, it’s not that serious.
Megan Rapinoe:
But I think there’s sort of the balance to it where it’s also, I think, a radical form of self-expression acceptance for myself and other people is really important in the general conversation. It’s like the oxygen we breathe. I see a lot of people, my tally of male athletes with colored hair now is really… I’m like, “Thank you, guys.” It’s not an explicit thank you. But you haven’t explicitly said that I was your inspo, but it seems pretty similar.
Amanda Doyle:
I do need a royalty for that.
Abby Wambach:
All right. You’ve played in three World Cups, this is your fourth, it’s fucking amazing, by the way. And I saw some videos of when you got the call from Vlatko, the FaceTime, and it was really interesting for me to watch you wait for him to tell you what was happening. Were you sweating it, because was that made up? How did that moment feel when Vlatko go told you that you made the roster?
Megan Rapinoe:
Well, to be honest, I had some other things that I wanted to talk about, some other questions that weren’t really allowed to be on the video. So I was like, are we going to have this conversation or what’s happening? I want to talk about some things. And he was like, “God delicious.” It’s always a moment where you sweat it a little bit. Nothing’s ever really in stone. Doesn’t matter what your stature or on the team is or any of that. I had a pretty good sense that I was going to be on the team and had put myself in a position to earn that spot. And it’s always nerve wracking. You just don’t know. It’s like, “What’s he going to say? What am I going to say?” You know it’s being filmed, so then there’s that part of it, but I have other questions to ask and I want to get into, that can’t really be on the film. So it was a funny tempered moment.
Abby Wambach:
Because I’ve talked a lot about my 2015 experience. Do you know what your role is going to be for this World Cup? Have you had those conversations with the coaches? Because I know that it was the hardest tournament I’ve ever played coming off the bench and also maybe the most rewarding in a weird backwards way. Have you had those discussions about what your role might be, this World Cup?
Megan Rapinoe:
Vlatko and I have had these discussions frankly for a long time, really since the Olympics. I think after the Olympics it was like, “What is it really going forward?” I wasn’t going to be able to be on the team if I was expecting my role to be the same, if I was expecting certain things. I think just realistically and being honest with myself, physically there’s limitations at 38 that I didn’t have at 35 or at 30. So I think just being honest about that for myself was really important first and foremost, so I could then be honest with Vlatko about that and him being able to be honest, it’s uncomfortable to talk to an older player, especially a player like myself and be like, “Listen, you’re not going to be playing. 90 minutes, physically I just don’t think you can do that.”
Megan Rapinoe:
What if I rebut that when it’s obvious that that is actually true? And I think our conversations were like, I think still have a lot to bring on the field for sure. Being able to bring a player like me off the bench is pretty rare. Usually you’re bringing a young inexperienced player off the bench that has a lot of spunk and energy and all that. But when you get into these tight games in the biggest moments, it’s being composed, it’s being poised, it’s having that experience, especially offensively if we need goals, if we need goal creation, if we need creativity, if we need someone to do something a little bit different, I think I can really bring that and be very effective. And then I think the conversation a lot was centered around off the field, is this something you want to do?
Megan Rapinoe:
I don’t think this is a role for everyone. I don’t think every athlete… And this is not a knock on any other athletes, but I don’t think it’s for every athlete who’s been really elite, and been in that starting position, and been one of the best, to do this. I don’t think it’s good for everyone. I don’t think everyone even really wants to do that. And for me it is something that I really want to do. To your point, Abby, I find a lot of joy and it’s really rewarding to take care of the team in a different way and to just open up the knowledge. If I could open up my brain and put it as somebody else’s body, I would do that and I want to do that. And I think it’s still really impactful and I find a lot of meaning and joy.
Megan Rapinoe:
And I think my thought process was like, if I can change into this different role, I have the opportunity to still go to another World Cup and be really impactful and still get to play at a really high level, which I think that I can do, but also couple it with something that’s really unique and I think can be really helpful for us going forward, whether I’m on the field or not, those moments are crazy. And halftime in the locker room and in between games, if you’re not playing well, if you’re playing well, players coming in and out of the lineup. I’ve seen damn near most of everything that could happen during a World Cup and during these major tournaments. So just being able to have the pulse of the team like that. I think particularly now with Becky being out, I think it’s going to be really important for those of us who have been there to provide that experience and just provide that calm for a lot of players.
Amanda Doyle:
Megan, that reminds me of something that I heard you say that blew my mind in terms of all of the ecosystems that I’m a part of, which is you were talking about teamwork and how it’s often presented. That’s this independent characteristic that people might have and we tend to valorize the ability to be a team player and weirdly villainize the people who embody individuality. And you were presenting it in a wholly different way about how being a sacrificial team player is not an independent goal. It’s just a natural consequence of being truly seen in the full complexity of your individuality. Can you please share about that? Because I think that affects everything, and I’ve never thought of it that way.
Megan Rapinoe:
I don’t like it at all, and I think it’s actually really harmful, the narrative in sports that you got to sacrifice it all for the team and that’s what’s going to make you successful. I don’t subscribe or believe in that at all. And in all my experience, in all the teams that I’ve been on, and all the successful championship teams, the more people individually are able to be their full selves, the more they will give to the team, the more they can provide for the team and the better the team is, holistically, from an emotional health standpoint, from a mental health standpoint, from physical, everything. We’re not the same. There’s nobody like me, there’s nobody like Alex, there’s nobody like Trinity, there’s nobody like Andy Sullivan. We’re not the same and everybody knows that. So whether you just try to fit that or not, deep down you know that.
Megan Rapinoe:
And I think what we know about humans, we want to be seen, we understand that we’re individuals, we understand that we’re one of one and very unique. And so the more you suppress that and keep that down, the less you’re getting from that person. I feel like we have to let people be themselves in the context of buying into, this is a team sport. You don’t always get to do everything that you want, or have the role that you want, or have everything perfectly designed for you, but you get to choose whether you want that or not. I got to choose whether this was a role that I was going to be buying into or not, make me do this, but he was like, “You get to be your full self and this is what I want and need from you. Do you want to do that?” And I think having all players do that where you actually do really feel seen, because it gets really hard and not everybody is going to get to have the World Cup that they dreamed about.
Megan Rapinoe:
We got 11 starters and five subs and that’s it each game. So not everybody’s going to get to play, not everybody’s going to be consistently rotation player. Some players might start and get pulled, it might be the opposite. You don’t always get to choose that, and you don’t always get to have the perfect World Cup. But when you leave space for people to feel how they feel and to be their full selves, and some people are more quiet, and some people are louder, and some people are funny, and some people like to dance, and whatever it may be, you get the sum of our parts is greater than each of us individually, and now you have something special.
Megan Rapinoe:
That’s a team, to me. Where you get to bring everybody’s full self and add it all up is better than any individual could do on their own. So that’s how I think about teamwork, and I think growing up on the team, for whatever reason this was happening, I think before I got there. We’ve had to box out a little bit and take space for ourselves as we always do, but that was always something that I felt was there on the team. The sort of individuality, but also a ruthless team mentality that you can be yourself, but you’re going to commit to this team. And anything less than that is not the vibes here.
Amanda Doyle:
I love it because sometimes if you have a, quote, unquote, “teamwork culture problem,” you think, “The problem is those people aren’t team players.” Where with you presenting it like this it’s, in fact maybe do we need to do some work so that these people feel truly seen so that they can be the team players that they will want to be when they believe that you see their individuality. If you couldn’t have blue hair on that team, you probably wouldn’t feel like a team player because you couldn’t be yourself.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like a family.
Amanda Doyle:
I love that.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s the team version of held and free, right? In so many places we have to either choose our individuality or choose our belonging, but we don’t get to have both. And so when you can figure out the balance of that where people in a family or on a team can feel both held and free, because it’s not just rugged individuality versus the good of the whole. There’s a bothness, and maybe that’s part of the freaking magic of the national team.
Abby Wambach:
It is.
Glennon Doyle:
What is it? Is it that?
Abby Wambach:
It is, I actually believe that the priority of each player on being their full self and also prioritizing the value of the whole, those are both equally important. And that is something… All of the companies in the world are dying to figure out this metric.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
They’re trying to figure this out. It’s all they asked me about it. And I tell them, “The deal is,” and I sat on a panel with Mia a long time ago and I was making fun of myself. I was dogging my slowness, I was not the fastest player on the team. And she shut me up. She’s like, “No, Abby, don’t do that. Don’t minimize your weaknesses, because where your weaknesses were is where I was able to step in and we were actually able to form a really unbreakable unit.” And that is individuality. And then all being able to come together to create an unstoppable whole team. It’s cool. And if you can figure out how to monetize it, Megan, let me know.
Megan Rapinoe:
I know, man.
Abby Wambach:
Because the corporate world is looking for it.
Megan Rapinoe:
I know. It’s like you let people feel appreciated. Going back to what I say, not everybody gets to start every game and do all the things. And if all you’re ever thinking is, “I’m not enough in this, I’m not enough in this and I’m not enough in this,” but then people are telling you, “It takes all 23 to win the World Cup.” It takes all of me, except the parts that you don’t want, except the parts that you don’t like. We all just are ourselves. We can’t change who we are. I feel like when you really fully appreciate the different aspect… And some people do different roles for the team, some people are not going to play a minute and be really important to the vibe of the team, or the emotional health, or keeping things steady or whatever. Everybody has a really important role to play and to make people feel appreciated in that is really important.
Glennon Doyle:
That goes back to the beginning of our conversation, about the country, that’s the left-out-ness of sitting in your house on the 4th of July and thinking, “Wait, so I’m supposed to celebrate belonging right now, but I don’t feel like doing teamwork because my individuality has not been-
Abby Wambach:
Seen.
Glennon Doyle:
… honored, and seen. So that’s the challenge that we have right now. We need to just the national team to go to the Supreme Court. Megan, if you agree to that-
Megan Rapinoe:
Do a switch out.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Megan Rapinoe:
Not all of them, but six of them.
Amanda Doyle:
They got benches there.
Megan Rapinoe:
We’re good. A uniform, benches, we’re good.
Glennon Doyle:
Megan, you have just announced that you’re retiring, which they should really just call graduating with you people. Retiring doesn’t seem like the right word because what happens next is always so freaking amazing. That’s incredible. How are you feeling?
Megan Rapinoe:
I feel really good about it. I’m sure it hasn’t totally sunk in, because obviously still have this World Cup and the rest of this NWSL season. But I’ve been thinking about this for three or four years, to be honest, but really seriously for a year. And I think I’ve had this beautiful experience of watching Sue go through everything right before my eyes and being able to process with her and just see her go through this journey. And also what it looks like when you do retire. I might have to grow some curls out or something, because this is working for you honey. But I feel really good about it. I feel as excited to play in this World Cup and to finish this NWSL season as I do to be done. And I think it comes from a place of being really grateful to be able to go out like this, being really grateful to my body, to my team in Seattle, and obviously Laura, who’s just been just an incredible influence on my career.
Megan Rapinoe:
I’m not the player that I am or the person that I am without her being really grateful to Vlatko and the national team and still being able to play a big part here. And I think just being able to go out in the way that I want and on my own terms, it’s very rare for an athlete, I think. It doesn’t matter what level you’re at or how good you are, what you’ve done in your career, it’s just really rare. There’s a lot of things that have to line up. And so I think I feel really lucky, in that sense, to be able to do this.
Megan Rapinoe:
And it just feels good. And I’m also like, “It’s time. The sports are a lot.” It takes a mind, body, soul and spiritual commitment and just a full on experience. And I think as you get older you understand that. And so where sometimes your commitment isn’t there or the things you just know too much and I feel like I’m ready to start a new chapter and to do other things. I’m really excited to be able to have time and space to go on vacation in the summer. I haven’t taken a summer vacation in like 20 years.
Glennon Doyle:
So crazy, stuff like that.
Glennon Doyle:
We’re hanging up with you and going to a lake.
Megan Rapinoe:
That sounds perfect. I feel really settled. I feel really settled.
Glennon Doyle:
What is your relationship to stillness? We talked a lot about this with Abby’s retirement because of the go, go, go-ness. You work hard, you celebrate hard, it’s just like hard, hard. It feels so hard. You’re alive. It’s hard.
Megan Rapinoe:
It’s hard.
Glennon Doyle:
I know you’re not going to stop and that’s what I mean. No, I don’t mean that, but I mean in terms of rest and quiet, do you have that in your life right now and do you have versions of that that you’re looking forward to?
Megan Rapinoe:
My relationship to rest and stillness is young and growing. And I’m like-
Amanda Doyle:
And imaginary?
Megan Rapinoe:
… trying to figure that out. I don’t even know if middle schools arise, it’s probably more like kindergarten. I’m starting to understand that better. I’m starting to really understand myself a lot better. I’ve been in therapy the last year really for the first time, and I feel like this is a transitional phase in life at around this age. It’s going to be a really big adjustment to not be on a schedule. I am basically a toddler on a schedule. And when I get off the schedule for one or two days, I’m crazy and it just drives me crazy. I’ve seen this with Sue too, just having to navigate working out and being healthy and balanced. There’s going to have to be a recreation or a new creation of balance in what feels good and how to occupy my time.
Megan Rapinoe:
I’ve made a real concerted effort over the last two years to really try to be as thoughtful as possible about all that I’m doing. Before 2019, things were changing very quickly and a lot more money was able to be made, and I wanted to do that. So it was like things that you just wouldn’t say no to. Of course I’m going to do that. I want to make more money and I need to make more money. We’re not making really enough money to be set and settled for life. And then of course after 2019, that changed dramatically, but then it was all so much, it was like drinking out of a fire hose. It was like yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And literally just burning myself to the ground.
Megan Rapinoe:
And I switched the structure of my business up. I hired someone full-time, Jessica.
Glennon Doyle:
Jessica.
Megan Rapinoe:
Who’s just incredible and helps me do all the things. She’s like, “You don’t have to say yes to everything.” And I think just having that permission and being a lot more thoughtful about where I spend my time and what I spend my time doing and the partnerships I think has been slowly laying the groundwork for stepping into this next phase where I want to be really thoughtful. I have given up so much of my life and the reward has been there, of course, I would never change anything. And being a professional athlete at this level is incredible, but you give up a lot. You give up almost all your autonomy in a real sense. Our schedule is what it is. Even vacations, it’s like, “Well, I’m going on vacation at this time because this is the time you go on vacation.”
Megan Rapinoe:
This is the time you do it. This is the time you go out to dinner. This is the time you don’t. This is the time you could be more lax. This is the time you don’t. So I think that is going to be a little bit more difficult to find that balance again. But I want to also live my life and what do I want to do? What do I like to do? What are the things that make me happy? Where do I want to spend my time? I think especially in a business sense, I’ve been really lucky to be very successful and make a lot of money so I don’t have to run myself ragged, I can be pretty picky and choosy and be really impactful and lining up the why of things with things that make sense financially and just rest easy a little bit also.
Abby Wambach:
I think that, first of all, I feel really happy for you that you are being proactive about this transition period of your life, I wasn’t. What made you want to get into therapy, and are you learning things about yourself that are surprising you? Are trying to help build towards something in terms of your future and in retirement?
Megan Rapinoe:
Oh my God, I’m learning everything about myself. I feel like when you first go to therapy, you’re like, “I’m cool.” I thought I was like all good, everything was cool. I was like, “If I can make it through the last however many years and be great, I’m sure it’ll add to my life and some kind of way.” And then I was like, “Oh my God, you don’t know anything.”
Amanda Doyle:
It gets worse before it gets better.
Megan Rapinoe:
Jokes on me, I don’t know anything. I even just looked back to 2019 and all that happened in that tournament and the President of the United States literally hate tweeting our team and me personally, and me just being generally unfazed by it. I’m like-
Glennon Doyle:
We had this conversation, Megan. I was like, “Babe, the President of the United States hate tweeted her.” Abby’s like, “She was fine.” She was like, “Whatever.” I’m like, “No one’s like whatever.”
Amanda Doyle:
Didn’t just tweet her when she was laying in her bed in the fetal position for a week? The president of this country on the day that she was representing this country in the most important game, which by the way, all the searing eyes of pay equity were on her like, “Well, I hope you prove you’re worth it.” NBD, she’s just out there doing it.
Glennon Doyle:
Did your therapist want to talk to you a little bit about that time, I’ll imagine?
Megan Rapinoe:
Turns out I have a very… Which probably was adaptive at one point, but maladaptive trait of dissociation. I think I’m really good at it. I was really good at it. Now it’s becoming a lot harder, now that I’m aware of it. But it’s like I grew up in a lot of chaos. There’s a lot of kids. Rachel and I are the youngest of kids, spoke really openly about my brother’s struggle with addiction and the effect that had on the family. And so I think that’s how I learned to deal with chaos. I’m a joyful person. I’m, I think, generally really happy, and I think I approach life that way, but there is actually a balance to that. Everything has a balance. As joyful as I am, this is what I’m discovering, there’s pain, and there’s sorrow, and there’s avoidance, and there’s childhood trauma that we all have.
Megan Rapinoe:
We all just learn how to operate before we really understand. And then that operating system just runs in the background until you really… I think it was Brené Brown, “The armor is not serving us anymore.” And so I think that was really the impetus of all of that. I was struggling with retirement and just finding a joy for things, and a joy for soccer, but also just in general in life. It just felt like I’d reached this ceiling in the phase that I was in, and I was like, “There’s got to be something more going on here.” I think it was more just like, I’m realizing that I want more for myself. I want to understand myself better. The math isn’t really a math thing and I don’t really know why. I think at the time I was like, “I don’t really know why the maths not a math thing, and I don’t really understand it.” But I think something’s got to be going on here.
Megan Rapinoe:
It’s been so challenging, so much stuff in the beginning I’m like, “What does that even mean? This makes no sense at all.” And I’m trying to be on board with it, but I just really don’t get it. And then over time it starts to have these kind of light bulb moments. But I think it’s just given me a space to be really open and honest about things that I wasn’t even understanding myself. Some things I feel like I wasn’t even avoiding because I didn’t even know was there.
Amanda Doyle:
It was unconscious avoiding.
Megan Rapinoe:
I’m so thankful for therapists in general, and it’s been really healing and I think it’s been really good, I think, in the context of going into this last year. I think it’s really validating in ways too because we’ve been in this life for so long, Abby, and you just accept things for how they are, when actually they’re insane. Sports are insane.
Abby Wambach:
Listen-
Megan Rapinoe:
And the landscaper on sports are insane and they’re not always really progressive and they’re not always really high level. It’s weird because women’s sports is really progressive in this way, but then the environments of sports and the power dynamics and everything’s just really strange and you’re stuck at this age all the time, and I just feel like I’m constantly trying to break out and be an adult and be the 38-year old that I am, but it’s like I’m not, I’m in sports camp right now and somebody sends me my schedule, and cooks my food, and does my laundry, and do all the things. So I think just validating in that this doesn’t really totally make sense and this is pretty wild.
Megan Rapinoe:
And also obviously moving into the next phase of my life, things that I’m scared of or things that I have stress about, or ways that I want to be closer to people. So much of our life takes us away from really deep and meaningful relationships and more intimate relationships and understanding our self better because we’re just always hovering in this environment that is really difficult to drop down into deeper emotions with.
Abby Wambach:
The thing that I realized the most in my retirement, and the thing that I wish for you more than anything is a calming of your central nervous system. Because no matter who you are, if you are in a professional sporting environment, you are always at a heightened or activated nervous system. And it took me two years for me to realize that that was even a thing and that it was something I was recovering from. It was like this… Always, you’re either fighting or fawning, but your nervous system is activated. So just notice in the coming years, all I think now is that was a really crazy time.
Glennon Doyle:
She says it once a day, Megan, she’s on the couch going, and the beauty is if you are just doing nothing… She, three times a day, is like, “I love my life so much.” And she’s just sitting on the couch.
Abby Wambach:
So much. I’m not thinking about like, “I got to go for a run because I got to leave in three days and then I’ve got to be gone for three weeks.” It’s so wonderful.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m so excited for you.
Abby Wambach:
It’s so wonderful.
Megan Rapinoe:
The constant metronome of stupid stuff is just like… The guilt and all of it. I’m like-
Abby Wambach:
That’s the worst.
Glennon Doyle:
And do you think that you, and maybe this is not true, but do you have to keep some kind of level of intimacy with your relationships not there because you could be called away from things at any point? If you can’t really sink into a moment because you’re always thinking of something else, can you not really sink into your relationships because are you always closed off a little bit?
Abby Wambach:
Well, I was like that. I don’t know if-
Glennon Doyle:
What about you?
Megan Rapinoe:
I think it’s just really difficult because you’re not ever in a place really long enough to sink in, even for yourself. We have homes, but how often are you there? We’re transient. I’ve been lucky to play in Seattle for 10, I think this is 11 years now. That is not the case with most people. I have a lot of friends, I swear, but they’re just all over the place.
Abby Wambach:
Sure.
Glennon Doyle:
You just can’t find them.
Megan Rapinoe:
You don’t have a sense of chosen community. You have all these people that are always around in this really intimate environment, but it’s actually not very intimate. There’s not a depth to the relationship at all, in a lot of ways. And you might be lucky as a player to find a few along the way. I know I have found a few and then I’ve played longer than a lot of my friends and my contemporaries. So now it’s gone back to the opposite where it’s like, “What is happening? Where is everybody?” They’re all gone. So it’s hard to keep up that relationship and have that consistency and that safe place to really drop down into those intimate relationships with yourself and feel comfortable with someone else, because we’re always moving and there’s always the threat of moving as you were saying.
Amanda Doyle:
And I imagine that the dissociative superpower that serves you so well in what you do, so excellently on the field, has to have some kind of consequence off the field for you. How does that show up, and do you think you’re ever going to be able to get over that until you finish needing it in soccer?
Abby Wambach:
That’s a good question.
Megan Rapinoe:
That’s a really good question. I think as I’ve been learning about it’s making soccer more difficult for me. It’s being aware that I’m dissociating… Now, takes the power of the dissociation away, which is really frustrating at times. So I’m like, just get me out of here.
Amanda Doyle:
Well I don’t think Biden’s going to hate tweet you this tournament.
Megan Rapinoe:
No, no, Papa Joe’s is not going to hate tweet me. But just in general, on a day to day, I think so much of the dissociation is like you’re around people all the time, and to Abby’s point, you’re in this stress response really all the time. Because from the time you wake up to the time you go to sleep, you’re checking the schedule. At any moment, your boss could just call you and be like, “Are you free for a meeting?” That’s weird. I’m in my bed. I’m not in practice.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re like a doctor.
Megan Rapinoe:
You’re just in this hotel with all these people. I think some of it is to almost protect against that. You can’t be open and present with that many people in this environment all the time from 8:00 AM to 8:00 PM. That is not healthy and it’s really difficult to do, in some sort of way, whether you dissociate or do something else, your body’s going to go somewhere because your body’s like, “What’s going on? This isn’t sustainable for us even in a day.”
Megan Rapinoe:
But I do think that I will be able to heal from this because it hasn’t served me in my personal life or in myself really. We talk about the relationships with other people, but I don’t even know so much about myself. I don’t have a depth of knowledge or understanding about myself in the way that I want to. What do I really feel about what happened in 2019? What do I really feel about… Even before that. I think kneeling was a really big moment as well. I’m not immune to the reaction that I got, both good and bad. I’m not immune to… It’s almost like being two people. There’s Megan Rapinoe and then there’s me and I have my inner life, and I think so much of the dissociation has been to avoid the inner life and just keep going.
Megan Rapinoe:
And I’m a joyful person, and I didn’t even really realize how much I was not listening or not understanding myself or feeling the things that I have, and I want to feel those things now. It’s like the expiration date came up in that phase of my life, and whether I wanted it or not, it’s here and you don’t really get to choose when those moments happen. I think you get to choose what you want to do about them, and I want to understand it more. I don’t want to be floating above what is my real life.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so beautiful.
Abby Wambach:
That is awesome.
Glennon Doyle:
And aren’t our bodies so amazing? Ourselves are so amazing. You did what you needed to do. Your body created this system because you were like, “All right, we’re going to be great. We’re going to be the greatest.” And your body’s like, “Well fuck, if we’re going to be the greatest, we’re going to have to do this thing.
Amanda Doyle:
“Mount up. We’re ready.”
Glennon Doyle:
Right. The only way we can get through this. So your body created this incredible strategy, dissociation. It’s like the video game of life, you’re like, “I’m going to level up now.” But in order to level up, then that disassociation has to go away. You’re just in this wild time where you need both.
Megan Rapinoe:
It’s like I need both. And the old operating system isn’t really working how it used to work, so I can’t really access that, but I’m in the process of building the new one. So then I’m in this between where I’m like, “What do I do? I don’t know what to do.” And it’s learning how to ride that wave and learning how to be in that uncertainty is so uncomfortable.
Abby Wambach:
My mind just feels like so blown, because I just have assumed that we all have to be that way until you’re done and that’s it. What you’re teaching some of these younger kids about the need to do this personal work throughout a career. I think like Sophia Smith, Alyssa Thompson, these women might even be able to do greater things than you or I ever could have imagined because of their complete embodiment.
Amanda Doyle:
Listen, it’s what we were just talking about. If the Rapinoe theory is true about teamwork and the extent to which you are able to show the complexity of your individuality is the ceiling for how much actual teamwork you can have, then it stands to reason that your ability to be integrated in your complexity and not disassociate would lift the team.
Glennon Doyle:
Is it possible? This is what Abby and I talk about a lot is-
Abby Wambach:
I don’t know.
Glennon Doyle:
Is it possible to be fully human and absolutely great at something? Or does greatness cost you your humanity in some ways?
Abby Wambach:
Hoping.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you know that, Megan? Is there some future version of humans? Are you part of it right now, and these kids in the future are going to be able to do both? Or is it just, no-
Abby Wambach:
That’s the price.
Glennon Doyle:
… in order to be this great, you have to shut down this part of your life?
Megan Rapinoe:
I don’t know. I really don’t know the answer to that. I have to believe that learning emotional intelligence and learning yourself and rewiring your system from when you were young, and from such a younger age has to be beneficial. Yes, our bodies design these strategies to get us through, but then they pretty quickly become very maladaptive and they aren’t very useful anymore. And I think just being able to have the choice, some things in sports in particular, you’re going to have to just suck it up and you got to be around all these people all the time. Not everybody’s going to get along, not everybody’s going to vibe with the personalities, or have the same ideas about what is going on, but so much of that just isn’t a thing that people choose and it’s just like, this is what it is, then this is what you’re doing, figure it out.
Megan Rapinoe:
I have to believe that if we can all even just go into that being like, “I know this is what it is and this isn’t what I would choose, but I accept that.” That is a better path forward than just having it shoved down your throat. I just don’t think that… That just can’t be the way. That just can’t be the way.
Glennon Doyle:
We know what it’s not.
Megan Rapinoe:
I think there is a path forward and I think particularly with people starting to talk about mental health much more, and talk about therapy, and to hopefully understand themselves more, and for us to have a more expansive idea around sports environments and teamwork and all of that, to be in a much more progressive environment in that way, I just have to believe that there’s space for that to be even better than what we have. It can’t just be the same thing all the time. That makes no sense.
Amanda Doyle:
I think also, everything you’re saying applies, maybe to a lesser extent, but to family units. When you’re saying, “We’re kind of thrown into this.” And we’re like, “This is normal, I guess.” And then we don’t realize till 20 years later that it’s completely wacky. Well, that just described like 85% of the families in the world. Just the ability to be like, “I see how we do this and I’m part of this unit and I guess we’re going to keep doing this, but this doesn’t feel good to me or I wish it were different.” Even that level of awareness of yourself has got to help.
Megan Rapinoe:
I see it even the way that the moms in this environment are raising their kids. A kid will have a big emotion instead of being like… You don’t want to be yelling in the mail room. It’s like, “We’re having a big emotion. It’s okay.” You’re teaching the child that it’s okay to feel your emotions, it’s okay to have them, because we all have them. It’s not like you can either have emotions or you can’t, we obviously know we all have them. So even just seeing that I feel like has changed in a lot of ways, just my perspective on things. I’m like, it is okay to have a big emotion. I’m maybe mature enough to handle in a different way than Marcel and Charlie are and I’m going to do my best to do that, but providing space is the kids are boxing out space for us also.
Amanda Doyle:
My God, I also wanted to tantrum in the mail room.
Abby Wambach:
I just want to circle back, because I just want to discuss really quickly, how are you feeling going into this final World Cup? You’re already there. How do you see this tournament going? Do you expect a win? Are you going to be miserable for the rest of your life if you lose?
Glennon Doyle:
No, she’s not.
Megan Rapinoe:
No, I’m not going to be miserable for the rest of my life if I lose. The sting doesn’t go away as you know. I still think about 2011 a lot. I’m like, “Damn, we should have have won that one.” But it’s okay, that’s life. I do expect us to win. I think every player going into the tournament should expect their team to win. Otherwise, why are you even going? You’re not going to just hope you do pretty well and think you’ll get to a certain stage. I not only want to win, but I think we definitely have the team to win. Our team is so talented and so dynamic in so many different ways. I feel really good about our team and the vibe. I think as an older player you can’t help but know all the things that you know, and so there’s a lot more anxiety I think.
Megan Rapinoe:
I’m like, “What about this? What about this? What about this? What about this?” You just can’t prepare for everything. It’s so much better having a little bit of experience, but not all the experience sometimes, where you can just be in the middle and be like, “This is great, but I know what I’m doing,” And feel confident in that way. So I think I have a little bit more of the ticker in my head of this, this, this, this, this, but I also know that that’s because I’m older and there’s things that are just out of my control, but I’m so excited. Also, I’m so excited for our team. It’s such an interesting group. There’s so many players who have so much experience and so many players who don’t. And so I think that’s a really good mix. But they also have this experience of playing in the league and being game in, game out consistent and having their teams rely on them.
Megan Rapinoe:
So in a way, they have a lot more experience than we did, having no experience in my first or second one. And the tournament’s just going to be incredible. Every women’s World Cup is just so much better than the last one. This one feels really special. I feel like it’s a welcoming of everybody who’s been so late to the party for so long and I’m going to try not to be petty, but I am petty. I don’t feel like it’s our opportunity to display to the world how amazing our sport is. It’s the opposite. We’ve been here, been doing this, been saying this, it’s your opportunity now to come and watch and to be a little regretful that maybe this is the first time that you’re showing up and just coming to it. But I’m really excited from just a general perspective for the women’s game and women’s forces in general. But I think from our team, I love our group and I think we’re really dynamic and I think we have an amazing opportunity to do something really special.
Glennon Doyle:
Now that you’re going to not be dissociated. What moments are you most looking forward to during the tournament that you’re determined to stay present for?
Megan Rapinoe:
Maybe some of the harder moments? I think that’s where I can really use a lot of the experience that I have, even just in my body. I’ve been in those moments. I know those stressful moments. I know the halftime feel when you’re playing like shit and you’re just like, “This is not going well.” I feel like some of those moments I think I can really show up for the team and be really helpful and provide something different. Certainly the most joyous moments, I generally don’t have an issue celebrating the joyous moments, I do love them so much, but I think this is just going to mean something different. And really soaking it all in, just realizing how very special… Even just the littlest someone scoring a goal, being on the field again, winning a game. All of these little games that we play are so important, obviously, hopefully leading up to the biggest one.
Megan Rapinoe:
I think just the existential grander moment of this being my last World Cup and understanding the difference of where I started to where we are now. Just me as a person, that growth, how much the team has grown, where the sport is. Our team and our generation of players have left an indelible mark on the sport, and I’m really, really proud of that. It took a lot, and it took a lot of work and it took something really unique and special, all of us working together in the way that we did to leave our mark in this way. And so I think that moment will be really special, of being able to know in my bones that the game is in such a beautiful place as I walk away and that our team has been a really important part of that.
Abby Wambach:
And I just want to say one thing before we end. I’ve been asked over the last year, since the equal pay settlement with US soccer has been finalized, and I’ve been asked a lot of questions about it. And honestly, Megan, I know it was a team effort. I know you did a shit ton of work and you spent a lot of money and you had to have a lot of meetings and you had to come to consensus on a lot as that went down. But I feel like if I could boil it down to one thing, it would be that you had a bravery that no other team had, that no other women’s national team had. Yes, we were brave for the time. We pushed it along as far as we possibly could, but you had this audacious bravery. It makes me emotional in a lot of ways.
Abby Wambach:
I was a part of the class, that was a surprise to me. I didn’t realize that I was a part of the class until I got an email and then a check. And so thank you so much for that. And I know that you’ve been leading the charge in the bravery department for this team for many, many years, and I hope that you keep doing that throughout this tournament. I wish nothing more than another World Cup championship for you, you deserve that and to walk off into the sunset, having hopefully 10 retirement games. I don’t know what the contracts are anymore, but I want that so bad for you and I love you so much. And you are the fucking bomb. You’re the best.
Glennon Doyle:
Megan, thank you.
Megan Rapinoe:
Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
Ocean Vuong was on here last year and he said about masculinity that his calling is to stay and complicate in terms of masculinity. And I feel that way about people in Christianity, in so many different spaces, that my favorite people, the warriors of the places are the ones who stay and complicate and in terms of patriotism and that you are the example of that. And I’m really grateful for it. I’m really grateful to be able to look forward to this World Cup and see a symbol of America that includes that’s what you’ve been, and we just can’t wait. Thanks for doing so many hard things.
Megan Rapinoe:
Thank you so much for all those words. That’s so sweet. I really appreciate that.
Glennon Doyle:
Pod Squad, go watch the soccer.
Megan Rapinoe:
Go sports.
Amanda Doyle:
Go to the sports.
Megan Rapinoe:
Go the sports.
Glennon Doyle:
Do the ball, get the goal.
Abby Wambach:
Bring it home, peanut. Bring it home.
Glennon Doyle:
Bye, Pod Squad.
Megan Rapinoe:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
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