How to Lose Half of Your Guilt
June 22, 2023
Glennon Doyle:
Hello. Welcome to, We Can Do Hard Things. We love You.
Abby Wambach:
Yes, we do.
Glennon Doyle:
Thanks for coming back.
Abby Wambach:
Can you believe they keep coming back?
Glennon Doyle:
I can now. It’s just like, I don’t know. It feels like a morning meeting every single day.
Abby Wambach:
It’s so nice.
Glennon Doyle:
All that adulting we have to do out there. And it’s so nice to have a place where we can come and talk about humaning.
Abby Wambach:
There’s so many tricky things happening all the time.
Glennon Doyle:
There are so many tricky things happening all the time. And that is correct without overpromising. What I’m telling you today is that we are going to change your life. No, for real. Because what we’re going to do today is talk about how to reframe guilt and what is guilt and what is not guilt and how we have been discussing how to free ourselves of 75% of what we consider guilt in our lives. That is not at all guilt and is actually good shit. So let’s get into this reframing, because I think it could take a lot of weight off your shoulders. So I’m going to try to describe it in my own way, even though I did not generate these ideas. I heard these ideas from Dr. Becky. Does Dr. Becky have a last name?
Abby Wambach:
Kennedy.
Amanda Doyle:
Kennedy, Dr. Becky Kennedy.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I didn’t know if she was like Beyonce or Adele.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, she’s getting there.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, she’s getting there. Okay. Dr. Becky Kennedy. You know how much we love Dr. Becky.
Amanda Doyle:
She’s the good inside person.
Amanda Doyle:
Good inside.
Amanda Doyle:
Check her out. Good inside.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. She presents as a parenting expert, but she’s a Trojan horse. Okay. You go in there thinking you’re going to get some tips about your parenting and then she just messes you all up and then she fixes you. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
‘Cause everyone thinks there’s something terribly wrong with their kids. No one thinks there’s something different terribly wrong with themselves.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Exactly. It’s like when I was like, “I feel like my eyes are two different sizes in my pictures,” and then I realized, “No, my eyes are just two different sizes.” It’s like I feel like there’s something wrong with my parenting. And then you realize, “Oh, no, no, no. There’s something molecularly wrong with me and I need to rearrange myself and then my kids will be fine.” Okay. Dr. Becky was talking about this concept. Now I need help explaining this because sister, you were there. You were not there, babe. So you will be able to tell me if this is making sense. Okay. And I’m actually going to run this by Dr. Becky before I release it so that she can fix it if it needs to be.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. Guilt. Let us talk about guilt for a second because the idea is that we are overusing the term and diagnosis of guilt when we feel guilty. So Dr. Becky said that guilt is what happens inside of us when we do something outside of our values. So for example, I’m going to actually just use a parenting example right now to describe this, but let’s say, so one time when one of my kids was little, they told me something in slight confidence and I shared it with a friend. And then the friend said something in front of the kids that made it obvious that I had told my friend. I know very bad-
Amanda Doyle:
Busted.
Glennon Doyle:
And so-
Amanda Doyle:
Not bad. Just busted.
Glennon Doyle:
Just busted. But I’m still good inside. So in that moment I felt guilt because I had done something outside of my values because I value the trust that I have with my kid. I value confidence. I value privacy. I did not honor that, I felt guilty. Correct use of guilt. Now, we actually call a million other things guilt that are what Dr. Becky calls not guilt. So for example, we call mom guilt. Guilt. Mom guilt is this idea that, okay, now here’s a different scenario. I am going out to dinner with a friend and my kid is like, “Don’t leave me. Don’t leave me. You’re the worst. Don’t leave me. I’m crying, crying.” And then I say, “I see you’re upset, but I’m going to go meet with my friend. And then I go to dinner,” and then I sit there, and I say to my friend, “I’m having so much mom guilt right now because I left my kid.” That is not guilt because that is not acting outside of my values.
Glennon Doyle:
I value my child seeing that I have friendships, that I have social connections, that I have a life outside of this home, that they can handle their business if I leave for an hour that they have resilience, that I’m going to come back, that they can trust the people we love, leave, and come back. Everything I’m doing right now is inside of my values. So what I’m feeling, when I’m sitting at dinner is something, it’s something, it feels uncomfortable, but it is not guilt.
Glennon Doyle:
So here’s the difference to me, Dr. Becky called it guilt and not guilt. Guilt is what I feel when I have acted outside of my values. What I think not guilt is, is the discomfort I feel when I have acted outside of cultural pressure or values. So for example, if I work outside the home and I go to a event or something where all the moms there do not work outside the home or work inside the home and I may be speaking from experience. They have more knowledge about what is going on at school and what is going on between children and I feel something inside me. I feel something inside me. The lazy response to that or what I have been taught to feel is that that is mom guilt. No, it’s not. Because working actually for me outside the home is not against my values. Working inside the home is not against my values either. I’ve done both. But at this moment, I value the fact that my kids are seeing me do the work that I do in the world.
Amanda Doyle:
And not just in reference to your kids, because you’re saying you value your kids seeing you go out to dinner, you value your kids seeing you work, you actually just value going out to dinner with your friends, and you value actually working. Right? So I mean, ancillary is that a word? Ancillary? It also is helpful for your kids to see it, but I think it’s good to claim.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s good. That’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
If only for me, I value it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I value this, good. I value this. I value working. I value going up. So I’m not doing anything against my own values. That’s even better. So I think it’s help for all of us to think about when we feel guilty, it’s something that we have done outside of our values that we need to maybe apologize for, maybe make right. But there is this whole other discomfort that we feel when we are acting outside of what the culture has told us to do. So I feel icky and sad because I have absorbed these messages from the culture that I’m supposed to have no life outside of the children or what’s another example that has nothing to do with kids?
Amanda Doyle:
I have an example.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, great.
Amanda Doyle:
Because yours are from the family perspective of kids and stuff. I think what’s interesting is that you hear so often about it, in terms of boundaries. So it doesn’t necessarily have to be cultural expectations. I think it can be anyone’s expectations. For example, if you are always doing more than you should at work, if you are always saying yes, when you mean no to your parents, if you are always taking on the extra volunteer position in your community. And then you start to adjust that, those expectations of all those people around you are going to be troubled. And you will feel that. And you will think it is guilt because you’re “Letting people down.” But if your value in setting a boundary is I’m valuing my time, I’m valuing my rest. I’m a person who values rest. I am a person who values doing things I want to do and not doing things begrudgingly I don’t want to do. Then you are actually acting within your values maybe for the first time.
Amanda Doyle:
And there’s going to be torment there that you think is guilt. And when you think something’s guilt, you think that there’s something you need to do to fix it. So you undo that boundary.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. And what I think we need to shore up is that there are some guilt that we feel in guilt is when we acted outside of our values that needs to be fixed or repaired, but we need to be able to identify this other discomfort that is just I have held a value of my own.
Glennon Doyle:
Guilt is I’ve betrayed a value of my own. The other one is I’ve withheld a boundary of my own and that is making forces outside of me uncomfortable. So for example, I am a workaholic who has decided I am actually going to rest. And I have a feeling inside of me when I say no to that thing and I need to not fix it, but create resilience for this discomfort, which is this feeling inside of me means I am being loyal to my value as opposed to betraying my value. But we are labeling both as guilt.
Abby Wambach:
So essentially, we’re saying, okay, you make a decision that isn’t in line with your values and you feel bad about it. That is a form of guilt that is in the right alignment with the definition that we’re trying to talk about.
Glennon Doyle:
Correct.
Abby Wambach:
And then here on the other side, you have made a decision that is in line with your values, but not in line with out their values. People out there, the culture-
Glennon Doyle:
The family, then whatever.
Abby Wambach:
… and yes, we are experiencing emotions, but that emotion is different. It’s just discomfort in staying true to your value, but while maybe going in opposition to the values of other people and the outside world.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. So there’s three options for every decision. One, it’s in line with my values and in line with everybody else’s values. I feel comfortable and happy. Option two, I’ve made a decision that is outside of my values, I feel guilty. Number three, I’ve made a decision that is aligned with my values, but not necessarily aligned with somebody else’s expectations of me. I feel something, it is not guilt.
Abby Wambach:
What is that?
Glennon Doyle:
It is the ickiness that comes when I have stayed true to myself but abandoned someone else’s expectations.
Abby Wambach:
God, why does that feel guilty?
Glennon Doyle:
And that we need to build resilience for.
Amanda Doyle:
And I would just add a fourth category, which is why I think expectations is good language for this. It’s like someone else’s expectations. Because I think there’s a fourth category where you can be operating within your own values, consistent with your values, and also be operating inconsistent with your expectations of yourself. So for example, and that might be the hardest place to be. So in your workaholism thing, or in your I am a person who hustles and gets done. Maybe I am going to make a decision to let something be a solid B effort because I have a value to do X this weekend. And so I’m making that decision in line with my values, but it is not in line with my expectations of myself, which is to make sure I always am doing A+ stuff. And that is the hardest thing because it’s very tricky to determine what is an expectation of yourself that needs to be adjusted as opposed to a value of yourself that needs to be upheld.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Damn.
Glennon Doyle:
Very good.
Abby Wambach:
Okay, I get it.
Glennon Doyle:
And one reason to do this also is because when we decide what it is? The importance for me of knowing whether if this is guilt or not guilt is this is the feeling that I’m abandoning my own values or the feeling that I’m abandoning other values.
Abby Wambach:
Other expectations.
Glennon Doyle:
Other expectations or… yeah, is that determines our posture next. So I’m going to go back to the mom example and then we can move into a different one. But if I am working or I am meeting a friend and I don’t figure out which one that is, if I settle on, “Oh, this is guilt,” my posture is, “I’m sorry.” You know I come home, “Oh, baby.” The guilt that we show when we misidentify as guilt is that we in our body, in our voices, in our energy are apologizing. And that signals to the other person that we’ve done something wrong, which then they understand this is wrong. For example, if it’s the work thing and I’m like, “No, I actually am ending at five, I’m done. I’m going to go home and I’m going to rest.” And because that’s in line with my values or it’s in line with an aspirational value.
Amanda Doyle:
Right. Great. All right.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s aspirational. One day I’m going to believe this shit. So I’m taking it till I make it.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m going to do it until I believe it.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. And that’s a lot of times what we’re doing.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. It’s the story of my entire existence.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. But I would argue that an aspirational value is our value, or we wouldn’t be longing for it. It’s just something we haven’t lived into yet. But if I identify that feeling that I have afterwards as guilt, then I’m apologetic in my, “Oh, I know, but tomorrow I’m going to work later or I’m so sorry, I’ll do more work over the weekend.” And that signals to everyone else that what she’s doing is not okay. And then I’m complicit with the whole thing that continues the pattern that I’m trying to break as opposed to somebody seeing me say, “I’m actually going to be done at five and that’s all.” And they’re like, “Wow, we can do that?” Then that is changing the values.
Abby Wambach:
I think that’s so important. The way that we respond to it, even in our bodies, it can either defeat the whole purpose of what we’re trying to go and be in value of, or it can then project even more of the same stuff that we’re trying to get away from.
Amanda Doyle:
And just as important as it is to model that, I think it’s equally important in our posture towards ourselves because, then you’re like, “I am full of torment. This wasn’t correct. I am continuing to try to figure out what parts of this are right and what parts of it are wrong as opposed to just having solidity in that.” So when you come home being like, “You’re sad,” and that’s okay. Like, “I was gone and you’re sad, and that’s okay.” And that’s right for you. And I had so much fun.
Amanda Doyle:
And what’s right for me is that I just went and did that. So we’re meeting on this grassy plane where you are right and I am right. It’s lovely to meet you here.
Abby Wambach:
What makes it so excruciating is like we’re really trying to act out like breaking these deep-seated conditioning and it’s like it’s torture. ‘Cause it’s like you’ve done this thing your whole life, you’ve believed this thing, or you’ve been taught this thing unknowingly. And to go against that grain and to walk in your own integrity and in your own value, sometimes it is an opposition to what you’ve been conditioned to believe, to be true.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. That’s what all these things are.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And now I have another thing that Dr. Becky said that is going to help this. How do you do this shit? How do you do this? Okay. So Dr. Becky said that she wanted us to imagine a tennis game. Is it a match? A tennis-
Abby Wambach:
Match.
Glennon Doyle:
… situation?
Amanda Doyle:
The tennis.
Glennon Doyle:
The tennis. Okay. So think about a tennis field.
Abby Wambach:
Match. It’s a court.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Think about a tennis court. One person’s on one side. The other person’s on the other side. Okay, so you are making a decision. Let’s go to the example of I’m going to stop work at five o’clock. Or she used the example of, I’m not going to go to my brother’s cookout on Sunday because my family is tired. We need some family time. Let’s just stick with hers because I think we’re closer to get to the essence of what she wants us to know.
Amanda Doyle:
Let’s stick with hers because that worked when she said it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Okay. So we call our brother and we say, “I’m actually not going to host a barbecue on Sunday because my family needs some rest and we’re just going to have some family time.” That is us hitting the ball over the net. We have done our part. We have clearly and kindly stated what we’re going to do. That is not the hard part because the hardest part of boundaries is not setting the boundary. Hardest part of boundaries is holding the boundary. It’s not saying the thing, it’s what happens next. Because what happens next is, all right, the ball is now in the brother’s court. The brother or anybody to whom you deliver-
Abby Wambach:
A boundary.
Glennon Doyle:
… a boundary to has every right to have feelings about it. They’re going to have feelings. That’s what people have. That brother might hit the ball back to you or try to hit the ball back to you with some sort of like-
Amanda Doyle:
“But I hosted you last weekend.”
Glennon Doyle:
… “I hosted you last weekend, but we miss you. We love you. Why are you so selfish?” It could be a lot of things. It could be-
Abby Wambach:
“I was really looking forward to this.”
Glennon Doyle:
Right. For those of us who are extremely sensitive to other people’s emotions, it could be a turn of a eyeball. It could be like, yeah, a smile that goes different.
Amanda Doyle:
It could be a text back that says, “K.”
Glennon Doyle:
Oh God. Oh God. And you just have to burn your phone. It doesn’t have to be a, you’re so selfish. For me, all it has to be that somebody else does is a raised eyebrow. Now here’s what we do. What we do is we internalize into our bodies the other person’s reaction. We have delivered the boundary. We have the peace inside of us. We are okay. Then the other person has whatever their reaction is, or whatever our perception of their reaction is. And what we do is we embody it, we bring it into our body. We were fine a second ago, and now it’s invasion of the body snatchers. And for anyone who is like me, you can understand what I’m saying. It sounds weird, but it’s like, “No, you’re not yourself anymore.” You are now internalizing the imagined feelings of the other person. Now the really interesting part of this is the reason we have to avoid this, that we have to not let our bodies be invaded is because we’re making that shit up.
Glennon Doyle:
We can’t embody someone else’s feelings. So now we’re not even seeing the other person because we have an imagined experience of the other person in our body. So now we’re not having our own experience and we’re not seeing the other experience. We’re just completely invaded.
Abby Wambach:
Just assuming what they’re-
Glennon Doyle:
We’re assuming, right? Now, in case it’s getting weird. I want to explain that I saw this happen a couple days ago outside of myself, because usually I’m the one getting invaded. So I want to explain-
Amanda Doyle:
Okay. Pause for a second.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
Because it is both in the, I’m assuming I know how you feel, and also in the case of not having to guess, you could have a really thoughtful, great relationship where the brother says, “I’m actually really hurt. My family was really looking forward to doing this. I didn’t feel like doing this last week and I did it. It really hurts me.” And so there can be a very clear, you don’t have to assume or fill in any gaps-
Glennon Doyle:
True.
Amanda Doyle:
… situation. And yet the same still applies. So I just want to make sure that the theory we’re talking about now works with both assuming what other person is thinking and when you have a very clear read on, even if the person is sensitively and thoughtfully given you explanation of how they feel as a result of your boundary.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. And either way, you just kind of want to die inside because you’re-
Amanda Doyle:
Well, you want to fix it, you want to make it better. What you have just created, the mess that you have just created. You hit your ball over, they hit it back, and you’re like, “Okay, got the ball now, I’ll take care of it.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And you’re not even there yet. You’re just like a mess of the other person’s feelings.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
You are trying to experience it. Okay, here’s what happened. So I’m at our little local grocery store recently, and there’s a woman who’s a cashier, who works there quite often. And I just adore her for some reason. She’s like, I don’t know, she’s an old lady who calls me honey. So it’s done for me. I’m just in love with her.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s all it takes people.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s all it takes. Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Stop trying so hard. You just have to call people honey. And you’re all good.
Glennon Doyle:
If you’re an older woman.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
For anyone else, then you’re dead to me.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, no, no, no. Clearly, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. So she is checking people out. Now I will say about my friend is she’s not the fastest checker outer. Not the fastest.
Amanda Doyle:
Look at you. So evolve. You’re liking even slow checker outers these days. God, this therapy’s working.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I mean, it’s one of those places where there’s only ever like four people in line. Okay. So it’s not. So there’s this person in line who’s right in front of me, and my beloved cashier is doing her checking and she is not going super-fast. And this person in front of me is so pissed about it, and I don’t even think that this person was saying any words, but it was just like their body was so obviously annoyed and shifting feet and rolling eyes and doing all of these things that was so obvious. Because once again, this is a small place, there’s only four people in line. So I am behind this person. My body is gone. I’m invasion of the body snatchers, but I’m half internalizing this person’s angst. Mostly, I’m internalizing how I think the cashier is feeling about this person’s discomfort. So I am livid, I am hurt, I am upset. I am everybody in the room. I am hating this person in front of me. Okay? Just homicidal this person in front of me, who is hurting the feelings of my favorite cashier who calls me honey.
Glennon Doyle:
By the time this person in front of me gets to the cash register, I’m sweating. I am in hatred. My cashier friend has made no changes, has not reacted in any way to this human being. It is as if she has not noticed, which is impossible not to notice. Everyone has noticed. The person gets to the front, and my cashier friend looks at the person with complete serenity and says, “Oh, are you in a hurry, honey?” With no judgment, just, “Are you in a hurry, honey?” And the person in front of me takes a second and then says, “Yeah, my dog’s at home sick.” And then the cashier friend said, “Okay.” And finished doing their things and then checked out. Now, I have experienced the equivalent of a marathon. I am tired. I need a nap.
Amanda Doyle:
Now you’re so worried about this person’s dogs, questioning every moral-
Glennon Doyle:
I’m a terrible-
Amanda Doyle:
… judgment-
Glennon Doyle:
… person.
Amanda Doyle:
… you’ve ever made about-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
… everyone.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. Because a dog comes in and, okay, now here’s what I want to say about that whole entire experience. It made me think of our friend, Dr. Brene Brown. We will list all of these episodes, the Dr. Becky episodes, Dr. Brene Brown’s episode, a study that Dr. Brene Brown did where she and her team canvassed all these people, she cares about facts. So she doesn’t just say how she feels. Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
She’s one of those weird ones.
Glennon Doyle:
She’s one of those weird ones. She has charts and-
Abby Wambach:
She’s a scientist.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Like I always say Brene is a shame researcher. So am I. But my field is the whole world in my life. I just do things, feel shame, and then study myself. She wanted to find out what people who were the most compassionate had in common, the most compassionate people.
Glennon Doyle:
What is the one thing that they most had in common? And they had a lot of hypotheses such as maybe they all have a spiritual practice, maybe they all meditate, maybe they all have good parents. Maybe they have what? You know, who knows? Do you know what the number one thing that all of the most compassionate people had in common?
Amanda Doyle:
What? They call people honey.
Glennon Doyle:
They had the strongest and most consistent boundaries.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, fuck.
Glennon Doyle:
The strongest and most consistent boundaries. Why is that? Oh, because my cashier friend, when she is not letting her body be snatched by another person, she can actually see that other person. The other person is still an other to her. So she’s not-
Amanda Doyle:
She can empathize with them.
Glennon Doyle:
She can empathize with them. If we go back to our friend who’s telling their brother, I really am not going to do the barbecue, and the brother says, “That makes me so sad. We hosted, we did the thing.” And then I don’t take it all in. I’m still looking at my brother thinking, my brother’s really sad. My brother really loves me. We have this situation where I need this time on Sunday and I’m going to take it and I’m going to keep it. And my brother’s sad and loves me and my family and wants to make this work. So I say to my brother, “That’s beautiful and I love you too. When are we going to see each other again?” There’s no problem that needs to be fixed.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. She used the example that you could actually, when you don’t take the ball back. So how it plays out when you take the ball back, is you take the ball back and from your brother and then you say, “Okay, oh, nevermind. You’re right. You’re right. You’re right. You’re right. I feel what you feel. And I am now going to schlep my family out to your place, and we’re going to do the barbecue.” And the way that works is you’ve just trampled your own boundary, so you’re pissed and resentful because you have actually acted contrary to your value.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
Which knew that you needed family time. So when you put the glass wall on the tennis court and when the brother hits it, it stays with him. Then you can see him, and you can actually be like, “You know what? I understand your frustration. I honestly would be pissed too, if you made plans with me, I was relying on them, and then you backed out of it. I’d be sad and frustrated and annoyed too. And I totally get that.” So you actually are able to connect in the way where you can see them with their feeling instead of taking their feeling into you, and then you can’t see yourself or them.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, that’s same with the kid thing. If you come home and you’re like, “You’re sad, so I’m sad.” But if you’re keeping, no, I’m acting within my value and you’re sad. And now we’re two people that are having two different feelings together, and where do we go from there?
Abby Wambach:
So can I just bring back to the tennis court analogy a little bit? So the ball goes over to the brother, brother’s going to have his feelings. He’s going to try to hit that ball back to you and we are supposed to then acknowledge, okay, he’s going to have his feelings, but almost put this invisible cloak around us that those feelings are real, but they are not going to enter our bodies.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
They need to stay with him.
Abby Wambach:
Got it.
Amanda Doyle:
His feelings stay with him. So what she’s saying is either push the ball back and not in an aggressive way, but just like, “Oh, this was getting confused,” but that ball belongs to you.
Glennon Doyle:
And you’re not saying that.
Amanda Doyle:
So I’m going to give it back to its rightful owner.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. And you’re not saying that.
Amanda Doyle:
No, you’re not saying it, but in your mind, you’re like, “I’m going to analyze this ball coming back to me. Is this guilt or is this not guilt?” First, I analyze, have I acted consistent with my values? Okay, my value is to know when I need rest, know when my family needs family time. Know we need a quiet weekend. Okay. Yes. So check. So since I’ve acted in accordance with my values, I know this is not guilt that I’m feeling. It’s not guilt. So that means that the ball that’s coming back to me actually belongs on the other side of the net, and so I’m going to gently push it back. And now that it’s where it belongs, I can say, “God, it sucks to have that ball, and I’m sorry that you’re feeling that way, and I’d be feeling that way too and that’s sucks.”
Glennon Doyle:
What should we do next?
Amanda Doyle:
Also, I’ve still made the right decision for my family.
Abby Wambach:
Cool.
Glennon Doyle:
It has to do with embodiment.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I think it has to do with embodiment, learning to embody your own feelings, not take on other people’s stuff. And remembering that for all of my love bugs out there who are afraid that that’s not kind. What I’m saying to you is that is what makes people kind is the ability to keep your own feelings and see other people’s feelings for their feelings so that you can see them and truly empathize with them. Because we can’t empathize when we are not containing ourselves and seeing other people.
Amanda Doyle:
I have a question that is probably the varsity level question of this that we didn’t get to when Dr. Becky was teaching us this. But how do I know that it’s consistent with my values? Because if I’m doing this self-analysis on that particular scenario that she outlined, where I’m like, okay, I had committed to go to this barbecue, my brother’s hosting, I now know that I definitely don’t want to go. If I’m doing that, there are three sets of values that I could be thinking about. I have a value to be committed to showing up for my family and integrating my family with meaningful time together. I have a value to keep my commitments that I make to people and be trustworthy at my word is reliable. I have a value to honor what I know my family needs. And in this moment, we need rest and time together. My question is, how the hell do I know? Because something that is in line with value number three is necessarily not in line with value number two and arguably value number one in that situation. So I think that’s the hardest part.
Abby Wambach:
Agreed. Yeah. I think-
Amanda Doyle:
How do you do that?
Abby Wambach:
I think to me, I think about it from a priority level. Yes, we have a lot of values, things that we really care about, but every circumstance, certain values rise a little bit higher in priority than others. And to me, that’s kind of how I weigh some decisions. And that’s just kind of instinctive. And then, of course, it’s communicating with the people around you, your family, figuring out what the values of this specific situation will rise to the top or fall a little.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Because it is true that these are nuanced decisions, so you can have values that feel clashing. The other day I was like, “Do you want to do this thing for work?” And it’s like, “Well, I value building our business. I value connection. I value these things. I also value saying no and resting and not doing things.” So in those situations, I really do think, okay, what makes me feel clenchy and what makes me feel expansive? What makes me feel warm? What makes me feel cold? That sounds so woo woo and cheesy, but that is truly how, and also, I always think this, do I want to do this thing today or tomorrow?
Glennon Doyle:
I am constantly making plans for some future version of myself because I think that person’s going to be different than the person I am right now. I’m constantly like, “Sure, I’ll want to do that since it’s a month from now, I’ll be a different person by then.” I have never really wanted to. I’ve never woken up and been like, “Yes, I can’t wait.” No, you’re inviting me to a party. Do I want to go to that tonight? If I don’t want to go to that tonight, I am not going to want to do that in 32 nights.
Amanda Doyle:
I think the one way to think about it that I just thought of is that resentment is my superpower. And by that, I mean it’s the opposite of that, that trying to be a hero and “Do the right thing for and to others.” When your most honest self knows that doing that “right thing” will actually introduce your own resentment towards the person and in the relationship, then it’s bullshit that you’re doing the right thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Picture yourself getting ready to go do that thing. Do you feel bitter and resentful? Then don’t go.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
‘Cause you’re doing nobody any favors.
Amanda Doyle:
Right. So I think that’s a good… at least, for people like me, when you’re caught between am I acting consistent with value system one, two or three? It’s like, am I introducing resentment in me towards someone I love or respect or as part of the ecosystem of our relationship? And if the answer is yes, and you think you’re doing that to do the right thing, you’re actually not, you’re doing the lazy ass thing, which is what I do. Which is like, “Okay, well then I don’t have to be confused about whether I make the right decision, so I’ll just do it,” but I’ll just be pissy and resentful internally and that will no doubt affect this relationship.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. I want there to be a word for the not guilt. What is the word for the thing we feel inside of us when we are betraying an expectation or a cultural value or someone else’s feelings? So we feel icky.
Amanda Doyle:
I was just going to say it’s ick. It’s icky.
Glennon Doyle:
But it needs to be more specific than that. It needs-
Abby Wambach:
Should we say like it’s the good guilt? I don’t know if we should keep guilt in it.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t think it’s guilt. I don’t think the… yeah, good guilt is like the vibe. But what is the word? If any pod squad, I’ve been thinking about this and I can’t come up with it, which is making me, you know-
Abby Wambach:
Feel guilty?
Glennon Doyle:
that I like a word. I like a word. So-
Amanda Doyle:
It’s inconsistent with your values to not have a word.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. So if you think of what that word is or you have any ideas about this, let me know because I think we need to help each other build that resilience. So if you can think of a word for us, let us know. Call us, email us. And also, we want to hear your thoughts and ideas about this. Right? This is a big deal. Women and guilt. Oh, my goodness. We need a huge cultural reframe on all of this. So thanks for hanging in there with us.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Dial in 747-200-5307.
Glennon Doyle:
We will see you next time. Love bugs. Bye.
Abby Wambach:
See ya.
Glennon Doyle:
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