Kelly Clarkson: Red Flags, Divorce & Starting Over
June 13, 2023
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. I have a very special place in my heart for women who artfully and relentlessly tell the truth about their lives. This one.
Abby Wambach:
This one is right.
Glennon Doyle:
This one that we have with us today is as cheetah-ish as a goddamn cheetah gets. You may have heard of her. Her name is Kelly Clarkson.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
Heard of her? Hi, Kelly.
Kelly Clarkson:
I’ve never heard of her. Never heard of her.
Glennon Doyle:
She’s-
Kelly Clarkson:
I should’ve worn my cheetah necklace. I’m moving to New York, so all my jewelry’s packed. I should have worn my cheetah necklace for you. I made one. Anyway-
Glennon Doyle:
I cannot believe that you have a cheetah necklace.
Kelly Clarkson:
No, you don’t understand. I know we’ve talked about this a little bit on my show, but I cannot tell you the timing. My nanny handing me that book, me reading it the fastest I’ve ever read a book. Me getting to the part where it was like, would you want your child in this relationship, and sobbing uncontrollably while they’re both in my bed and I’m in my bathroom on the floor, like a scene. It was a scene, and it just was, you know, things come at the right time because I was struggling and it just came at the right time.
Kelly Clarkson:
And she’s given me tons of book ideas to read. We’re all avid readers in our group. But I’ve never once been like that because we love very different books usually. She likes, like someone’s died and they’re looking for them. She likes those kind of books. And I’m like, I don’t want death. I’m like, I’m good.
Glennon Doyle:
Life is hard enough. I need something to help me, not add more problems to my life.
Kelly Clarkson:
Yeah, I’m good.
Glennon Doyle:
So your group, someone in a group gave it to you?
Kelly Clarkson:
We have a, it’s my mom, my sister. There’s Ava, Tricia, Ally. There’s such a bunch of us, we like reading different things or listening to different things. We’re all very different, but somehow our crazy crew works. Even my mother, I was just with my mother and sister in Montana, and she just started losing it over this toast, and I was like, I’m going to let her have the moment on the toast.
Glennon Doyle:
Toast, like bread?
Kelly Clarkson:
Yes. Because it kept burning, the toaster kept burning her toast. And she just wanted some toast and it just wasn’t happening. And it was obviously more than the toast that was happening.
Glennon Doyle:
It always is.
Kelly Clarkson:
Yeah. I was like, this is bigger than the toast. But anyway, it was just funny. But we’re like that group that can also be like, so are you good or we should talk about it? I think we’re all just to a certain age to where there’s no bullshit. So yeah. So it’s nice. But we are all very different. So that’s also very funny.
Glennon Doyle:
Isn’t it a gift of getting older, is having relationships-
Kelly Clarkson:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Where there’s no bullshit. Oh my God.
Kelly Clarkson:
Yes. I have no time.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so take us back. Because my sister and I listened to chemistry. We were in a hotel by ourselves.
Kelly Clarkson:
The whole album?
Glennon Doyle:
The whole thing.
Kelly Clarkson:
I thought you’d only heard the three songs.
Glennon Doyle:
No, we got a secret link.
Kelly Clarkson:
Oh, I’m so happy right now.
Glennon Doyle:
I begged. I begged for a link. We got a secret link from some secret people. My sister and I sat in the hotel room, blasted like we haven’t done since maybe we were in seventh grade, Sissy?
Kelly Clarkson:
Oh my God, I love this.
Amanda Doyle:
Amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
We were looking at each other, weeping, and then we were-
Amanda Doyle:
We kept stopping it during certain lyrics and being like, oh my God. Oh my God.
Glennon Doyle:
We were going back. It was a journey, Kelly.
Kelly Clarkson:
That’s awesome.
Glennon Doyle:
It was a journey for us.
Kelly Clarkson:
It’s a journey, right, though?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Kelly Clarkson:
It’s a rollercoaster. It’s funny that you listened to it. I don’t know if you listened to it straight through, but we-
Amanda Doyle:
We did.
Glennon Doyle:
We did.
Kelly Clarkson:
So I went back and forth about that, because I was like, well, maybe I just start at the beginning of the relationship and just kind of accordingly do each song. But it didn’t make sense sonically. It was odd. So I was like, you know what? The whole thing was a rollercoaster. It’s fine if the sequencing is that.
Kelly Clarkson:
But I definitely wanted to start with, can I skip this part, which is maybe one of the saddest songs we’ve ever written. But that’s how you feel when you go through something. I know we can do hard things, that’s why we’re here right now. But sometimes you don’t want to do it.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
You never do.
Amanda Doyle:
You rarely, rarely do.
Kelly Clarkson:
You just want to go right to the end, where people are like, you’re going to be happy one day.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. We call it trying to skip the crucifixion and go straight to the resurrection, which that is never the way it works.
Kelly Clarkson:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
It doesn’t work.
Glennon Doyle:
But I love that it wasn’t in order because it feels like that, too. Feelings, they’re not clean and linear. The beginning, middle, end, and post of a relationship is like everything everywhere all at once. It’s like you feel it all. It’s so beautiful.
Amanda Doyle:
There’s no post.
Glennon Doyle:
There’s no post, really, is there? There’s just the new you.
Kelly Clarkson:
Yeah, which is why it ends with That’s Right. So the song with Sheila E. that we got her to perform, which I was so excited, that’s kind of the Stella Got Her Groove Back song.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Kelly Clarkson:
That’s the song where it’s just like, okay. I was like, it’s all right. It’s going to be good. And I liked ending with that and starting with on the floor crying. But yeah, it’s definitely a rollercoaster.
Glennon Doyle:
So take us back to on the floor crying because everyone on earth knows the on the floor crying. I used to say, people say that God is everywhere, but I think that God is in the bathroom because of the moments of rock bottom I’ve had on bathroom floors. That’s like my altar.
Kelly Clarkson:
Oh my gosh, that’s me too. You just said it. My lowest point in life was actually after this show in Irvine years ago, like 2000, I don’t know, five, something like that. I can’t remember. My lowest point I’ve ever been at. And it was in a bathroom. And honestly, it’s the one place you can escape from everyone. No one bothers you there, especially if you’re even lying, going, I’ve got to go to the bathroom for real. They really won’t bother you. So it’s just like-
Glennon Doyle:
And the longer you’re in, the less they’ll bother you. Yes.
Kelly Clarkson:
I know, I know. I think that’s the place where you find where people tend to leave you alone. So yeah, it was the one place at that amphitheater. And that is true. I’ve never thought of that before, but that was a moment for me.
Amanda Doyle:
Why was that your lowest moment?
Kelly Clarkson:
So I had this thing, and since then, still been working on the same thing. Just love to live in a circle-
Amanda Doyle:
Circle back.
Kelly Clarkson:
Cyclical pattern. But anyway, so I was very sad. I was having a very hard time with certain people in my life personally and business, just everywhere. It was kind of, and it was my heyday for me. It was like the third tour we’ve done on that Breakaway album. I was very tired. I’d had walking pneumonia twice. I was just beat. Nobody cared. They just literally were pumped. Not nobody, but no one that counted, that made the schedule or did anything, cared.
Kelly Clarkson:
And so I’m a total southern girl and a very hard worker. And I’ve always been taught to, I mean, even in sports growing up, you’re like, no, you can push yourself further than you think. I’ve always been that person. So I just pushed and pushed, and there were very unhealthy people around me, like in their own lives, very unhealthy. And everyone on the coattails, if I’m being blunt, was just draining me. And there was nowhere to go. Home wasn’t great. Business wasn’t great. Even on the road, the only place to feel, at one point, turn around and go wow, the only place I actually feel safe or heard is when I’m on stage doing a show. That’s a really big problem.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Kelly Clarkson:
So yeah, so that’s a problem. So that was the lowest I’ve ever been. Cut to years of still thinking I could, you know, there’s this song I have called Sober. It’s pick the weeds and keep the flowers. And so basically I started tending my garden and trying to get people out that aren’t bad people, just not good for me.
Kelly Clarkson:
But I have this thing where, which is obviously I’ve done enough therapy at this point to realize where things just come back up, especially if you haven’t addressed them, or if you think you’ve gotten through it but you haven’t. So for years, even until this relationship that’s on this record, there’s still things that are just these cyclical patterns. It’s like, when am I going to learn? When is it going to be the time you actually learn? And not just learn of it, but learn of it and actually change it? Because it’s very hard to change those patterns, especially that are built in from childhood. Yeah, cut to a lot of bathroom floor crying.
Glennon Doyle:
Bathroom floors. So you read this part of Untamed, I think it’s the one that you’re referring to where I had this moment where I realized I was staying in the relationship for my little girl, but would I want this relationship for my little girl? And if not-
Kelly Clarkson:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Then why am I staying in this and calling it good mothering when really it’s bad modeling?
Kelly Clarkson:
Which is kind of tricky because even I’ve had friends come to me after three, now this is three years this month, or maybe to this week or last week, three years since our separation. And I’d read that, and I know that to be true for me. Even watching my mother in two different marriages, there’s things you pick up on even as a kid that you’re like, this is unhealthy, like an environment to live in.
Kelly Clarkson:
It was one of those things when I read it, I definitely was still on the not fence, but I kept, the tug of loving someone so deeply and the tug of really needing to love yourself as much or more. And it was like, I just don’t know if I can do this while still trying to do this anymore. But then it’s interesting because you think about your kids and you’re like, oh man, I wonder how is this going to affect them? I remember how it affected me. And he has also been through divorce with his family. So I was like, oh, nobody wants that.
Kelly Clarkson:
So you try and you try and you try, but then you figure out, well, I don’t want them growing up with this unhealthy, but I’m going to be honest with you, I’ve had people come to me that are going through divorce or going through really hard relationships with kids, it doesn’t matter either way you go. Your kids still have a hard time. It doesn’t matter if you stay-
Glennon Doyle:
Amen.
Kelly Clarkson:
It doesn’t matter if you go. I’m still having conversations three years later. My kids just came back from my ex. And it’s always like, anytime there’s mention of maybe him being with somebody else or anytime, I mean, they are just really adamant about keeping that dream alive that we might still be together one day.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, bless them.
Kelly Clarkson:
Still, and we are never around each other. So it doesn’t matter either way. Both are hard. But when people say, well, was it better in the end, I’m like, I don’t know that it’s better in the end. Either way is hard. I think it comes down to you. It’s like, I don’t know if I can keep holding up all of this. I don’t. And that’s what I feel like I’m having to do.
Kelly Clarkson:
And I’m a better mother. I can say that. After, I’m a far better mother. Because I think when you’re honest with yourself, you’re able to be honest with others. But sometimes you don’t know that you’re necessarily lying to yourself. Love is tricky. It really convinces you that you’re doing the right thing or this is what you should do. It’s just a very hard thing when you love someone so deeply, to separate that and to have the right answer, which I don’t, when my kids ask me sometimes. I’m like, I can’t give you that whole story. This is your separate relationship with your father. This is mine, this is yours.
Kelly Clarkson:
And it drives my daughter, who is far beyond all of us. I’m just like, oh my God, I’m not ready for this conversation. She’s very inquisitive, she’s very smart. She catches everything. I cannot leave a hint of sarcasm on the floor. I can’t do anything. I have to be so on top of it.
Glennon Doyle:
I like her already.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, trying to do the right kind of hard, trying to decide between what’s the right hard, is one of the hardest things about parenting.
Kelly Clarkson:
And in general. Even this move, we’re all moving to New York. There’s people that can come. In general, doing the hard thing, which hard thing, they’re both crappy.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. But I appreciate that about you so much because I think that people, it’s like they go the opposite fairytale. We used to be taught, if you stay together, happily ever after, and there’s your redemption story. And then people went the other way. Now I broke it off because that was the right thing for me, and now I have to make that the perfect happy ending. And neither are true. They’re both extremely messy, and they both have challenges and blessings with them. And you just pick your hard.
Abby Wambach:
I want to ask you about the song Mine on your new album. It’s one of the songs that have been released already. This song gutted me because you wrote, “I don’t know why I stayed as long as I stayed.” And boy, do I get that.
Glennon Doyle:
We all do.
Abby Wambach:
Boy, do I get that. Why did you stay as long as you stayed?
Kelly Clarkson:
But that’s hindsight, right? So it’s like when you’re in it, and I think also our ego, or mine, my ego, I’m like, I can do this. I can handle so much. My ego is like, I can control my actions, I can control my reactions, I can do this and I can reach this person, and I can get through. And it becomes a little bit of your ego that gets in the way. And also, if I’m being completely honest, we don’t want to do what we saw done. You know what I’m saying? I’m like, ugh, I don’t want my kids to be those kids at school. Because I grew up, and it’s a little different, they grew up here. It’s a very progressive city. And even New York, that’s progressive. But in the South, there were like two of us with divorced parents in our class. So it was very different.
Kelly Clarkson:
And even when you come down to daddy daughter dances and you don’t have anyone show up, and he lives far. There’s been things that happen even in my kids’ school. And it’s like, you have to think of all those things. And I think you play it out differently in your head, too. You try so hard, like, I do not want to do that to her, I don’t want to do that to him, that you start never thinking about yourself. And that’s, honestly, sometimes to be selfish for me was very important because I’m never, I’m rarely selfish. It’s been beaten into me since childhood to have a servant’s heart. It’s very hard for me to take that and go, I need this.
Kelly Clarkson:
And then it’s funny because if you’re not like that, then it’s almost like you’re aggressive about it when you do need it. You’re like, yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, I need it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, because you’re pissed.
Kelly Clarkson:
You have to be aggressive because you’ve been letting it sit so long that you’re like, no, no, no, no, no, I need to aggressively tell you right now that this is not working. I don’t know why we do that.
Abby Wambach:
Well, you’ve got to hold your boundary. And sometimes, especially if it’s hard to create the boundaries to begin with, when you actually do one, you’re like, I’m doing it.
Kelly Clarkson:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
You better listen to me.
Kelly Clarkson:
This is the line. This is the line. Yeah. You’re like, yeah, no, I am better, I should say, I am far better at boundaries now. But we have this joke in our group, because I’m around a lot of Scorpios and I feel like Scorpios are very just like no bullshit, this is what’s happening and this is what you just said and that’s actually what you meant. They see everything. I have friends, and my sister’s a Scorpio, too. They just see right through it. And all I see is a sea of potential.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, like, oh, scary. Scary.
Kelly Clarkson:
Just a sea of, oh, that’s not what they meant. They probably meant this. Or they probably … No, you don’t know. Maybe they were having a rough day and maybe they didn’t, normally that’s not probably what they do. I can’t think of that. I am that person.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re painting those red flags green. You’re just painting them.
Kelly Clarkson:
Girl.
Glennon Doyle:
And you believe in the opposite of the Dr. Maya Angelou quote. So it’s like when people tell you who they are, do not believe that.
Kelly Clarkson:
I am literally the opposite. My quote would be, when people show you who they are, it might not be who they are, it just might be who they are today. And I think it boils down to I have to believe in change. If I don’t believe in change, I will just go so Zero Dark Thirty. I will literally get so depressed. I will get so bogged down. And I just feel everything. So I have to believe that everyone’s capable of change.
Kelly Clarkson:
Now, most people in my group do not believe that most people can change. And that’s fine. I don’t collect red flags anymore. I definitely look at them and go, this is a red flag, or I’m just doing the same thing, right? Okay, cool. Like you, I at least recognize it. But it’s a very hard thing to give that up, because it’s also a beautiful thing to see-
Glennon Doyle:
I know.
Kelly Clarkson:
Potential in people. And it’s also a beautiful thing to not give up, because you hear those stories too, of this person didn’t give up on me, and then I finally felt love for the first time or I finally, because people that are like that just haven’t seen light in a while, people that are like that, it’s because they forgot what it looks like. I feel like they just forgot. I don’t know.
Abby Wambach:
Where do you think that comes from?
Kelly Clarkson:
I’m always trying to fix-
Abby Wambach:
Where do you think that part of you comes from?
Kelly Clarkson:
I think honestly, religion growing up. I think when you go to church at that young of an age … Here’s the thing, I love spirituality. I think religion can be confusing, but I love being spiritual. And I had a really great, and it’s actually … I’m totally going to cry.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s okay.
Kelly Clarkson:
I’m going to take a drink. Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
Whatever you-
Abby Wambach:
I learned in jail that you can’t cry and drink water at the same.
Glennon Doyle:
She did.
Abby Wambach:
For my mugshot.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, the sweet-
Kelly Clarkson:
Did you say you learned in jail?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. The sweet person who was taking her mugshot-
Kelly Clarkson:
I love you.
Glennon Doyle:
She was crying so hard that they told her, take some water. She said, I’m not-
Abby Wambach:
Take some water.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m not thirsty. And they said, no, you have to stop crying.
Kelly Clarkson:
It does. It cuts it off. No, and why that just happened is, oh my God, I’m going to get this out. It doesn’t help that it’s Margaret monthly right now, so that’s not helpful for me. But anyway, look, I’m sorry. TMI.
Kelly Clarkson:
No, it happened the other day at The Voice. I was leaving The Voice and my mother, she’ll text me things sometimes that I thought I was referring to the show. Like, why did you turn for that person? Or why did you, you know, like that kind thing. Or, oh, that was a great performance. Something like that. And I looked, and so his name was Dr. Frankie Rainey and he was a pastor. Oh my God, I’m trying to get this out. Anyway, so he was one of those guys. I didn’t have a dad, and he would cut out clippings and send them to me, mail them to me in a letter, and just say really kind things. Jesus, take the wheel.
Abby Wambach:
We’re right here with you. We’re with you.
Kelly Clarkson:
I’ve had pastors before and I’ve had people that weren’t so great in a church environment, because it’s not a perfect environment by any means. But I just mean, for the most part, that’s been kind of detrimental. For the most part, people around me, not great things happened, but this one individual, he was just a really good man.
Glennon Doyle:
So he represents it for you. He represents spirituality and religion and all of that to you.
Kelly Clarkson:
He represents what I love about it. This sounds horrible, but I’ve never come across one marriage that I want that. I just really haven’t. I’m going to be honest with you, in my life, not seeing people that I don’t know on the regular, I mean in my life, I’ve never been like, that’s what-
Amanda Doyle:
Up close.
Kelly Clarkson:
That’s what I want.
Amanda Doyle:
Up close.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so true.
Kelly Clarkson:
Yeah, the real, the real, I’m like, I don’t know, that seems real difficult and not fun and happy. It’s kind of like that. With him, he is what I felt like whenever I read those words in Sunday school or church or going through the sermon. That rang true for me. He was such a great example of a man, of a leader, of all those things. Anyway, so he passed away. Anyway.
Glennon Doyle:
Is that what your mom was telling you?
Kelly Clarkson:
Here we go.
Glennon Doyle:
And your mom was telling you that?
Kelly Clarkson:
Thank you. Get it out. Get it out, Glennon. I can get it out. Yes, that’s what she texted me. And I was just really sad about that. But I grew up watching someone like that. I’m going to get it out.
Glennon Doyle:
No, I get it.
Kelly Clarkson:
So for a person that hasn’t experienced that kind of love, to be shown that, and then you change.
Glennon Doyle:
And that changes-
Kelly Clarkson:
So that’s why I believe in it.
Amanda Doyle:
Do you think you changed as a result of that love?
Kelly Clarkson:
Oh my God, 100%. And that’s why I’m this crazy person that always does this. And this is why, because I know it can happen.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you ever wonder if, because I think sometimes we think, oh, I have all this hope and because I have this hope and I see the best in people, I’m fucking things up. But do you ever wonder if you’re doing things exactly the way that you’re supposed to?
Kelly Clarkson:
I think at some point we all do what we think is good and right and beneficial for everyone. And sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn’t. I mean, I don’t know. I feel like it’s a beautiful thing to see that hope. But I also think, if you heard the song lighthouse on the album-
Amanda Doyle:
Coming at you, coming in hot with lighthouse.
Glennon Doyle:
We heard it like we wrote it, Kelly, we heard it like we wrote it.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Kelly Clarkson:
Literally, but it’s like we were never, it was just never going to happen. That was the song where I finally not gave up on it, but gave up on that part. I gave up on this is never going to happen. That is the song where I got off the fence and was like, okay, I can’t, I’m going to drown. This is not going to be good for anyone.
Glennon Doyle:
How do you know? Because you have Christianity in your background. You have, you just said sports, you have Southern, you have a lot of cultures you come from that revel in suffering. Because if you believe in hope and you’re a Christian person and you have that in your head, I know from experience, that hope is right after the suffering. So it’s like, how do we know?
Glennon Doyle:
I mean, I had a friend the other day that was at our house that was like, “So my therapist is talking about how suffering means stop,” so blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, “I’m sorry, what did you just say?” Suffering means stop? I thought suffering means I’m on the right track. Keep going.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re almost there. You’re almost there.
Kelly Clarkson:
And it also means that it matters. For me, it also means that whatever impacts you that deeply matters to you. So I don’t know, I can’t actually recall the exact situation, but I think there comes a point to where you just feel so beat up by life, by circumstance, by yourself, by others, you’re like, I have nothing to give. And I think the point comes, I will say the main reason for that is I can’t even focus on us anymore because we have these two little humans here that are counting on us, and I’ve got to get better for them. We’ve got to make this better for them, at least, if we’re not going to make it for us.
Kelly Clarkson:
So I think probably kids, that probably did it. And honestly, I’m not saying this because you’re here, honestly, reading those words and on that bathroom floor, that was all around the same time that I wrote lighthouse, all of that, all of those songs were written like three years ago. So that was one of the major things, is reading that and going, oh my God, I would never want my daughter or son in this relationship. Obviously, I would hope for way better for them and a far better kind of love.
Glennon Doyle:
So then you think, I need to love myself as much as clearly I love them. And it’s so weird to you.
Kelly Clarkson:
Oh, that’s literally what my therapist, I think one of the first things talking about, she was like, “If you could just treat yourself how you treat others.” And I was like, oh, okay, hard truth. I was like, “Okay, well that’s all for today.” So I’m just going to swallow that pill. It’s going to be fine.
Kelly Clarkson:
I guess I don’t ever know, too, if you’re doing it right or wrong. You just, you feel like you’re doing it how you should be doing it. And I don’t know, maybe we’re fucking it up. I don’t know. But you’re trying not to, and that’s all you can do is try, with all the information you have. But I’m honest with my kids, too, not honest about anything with me and my ex, but honest about life.
Kelly Clarkson:
I think one of the best things my therapist told me was, because I kept trying to hide it, I would try and run and hide somewhere, anytime I would just get overwhelmed and I needed to cry. And she was like, “Why are you hiding? Obviously don’t do it all the time, but it’s normal for your kids to see you, first of all, care that this is happening and it’s affecting you and it’s not an easy thing.” And I think that was a really good lesson for me to learn because obviously look at my job, my vocation in general. I spent all of COVID going through hell privately, trying to make America smile on my ranch in the snow, while trying to record a song in six different languages and doing all these other things. It was hell. COVID was hell.
Kelly Clarkson:
And I just had to keep smiling and keep … So I’m very good at that because I’ve trained myself, but it’s not healthy. So it was a very good lesson, I think, to learn from my therapist, was like, it’s okay for them sometimes to see you struggling. That’s life. They need to see that. And I’m like, why do we protect them from that? I don’t know why we do that.
Abby Wambach:
Also, PS, same with the world. You’re such a lighthouse that it’s also, I think, okay, and TV shows are going to be TV shows, but to know that other people are struggling makes people feel less alone.
Kelly Clarkson:
And honestly, you just nailed why I even released this album. Because I’m 41. I’ve got a whole other job right now. I don’t need to necessarily do that. First of all, I just did it for me therapeutically. That’s how I get through things. It’s almost like how I, I’m like, what am I thinking? That’s how I figure it out, or where I’m at, is writing.
Kelly Clarkson:
And so I did it selfishly at first, and then the last few years have been really hard on a lot of people. I think that that’s true. Any kind of art, I think that’s how you connect with people and how you don’t feel isolated. And so I think that rings true, what you said.
Amanda Doyle:
I was wondering, you were talking about lighthouse, and there there’s a line in that where you say, “It’s such a shame when our wants and needs don’t align.”
Kelly Clarkson:
And that’s when the song I Hate Love comes in, too, because it’s literally that. You can love someone so much, but it doesn’t change what’s happening. You know what I’m saying? It doesn’t change the issues. It doesn’t change the problems. It doesn’t help in any way. It’s not that powerful, turns out.
Kelly Clarkson:
And it’s funny, you know, you mentioned earlier when you were like, oh, because you’re a lighthouse. So ego, when I first started writing lighthouse, it was because people always, ever since I was a kid, they’re like, “Oh, you’re such a light.” People have always said that to me. Well, when you hear that as a kid, you feel like you kind of, it’s almost like your duty then. When you’re a kid, you’re like-
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, it’s your responsibility.
Kelly Clarkson:
Oh, I’ve got to, yeah, you’re like, okay, well I’ve got to be a light. I’ve got to be funny. I’ve got to be talkative. I’ve got to make everyone happy. So then it’s your thing that you’re known for, from early on, which is super unhealthy. But it’s funny, because you learn about yourself too.
Kelly Clarkson:
So in lighthouse, not only figuring out about my relationship, but also me. It turns out I wasn’t the lighthouse. I started writing that as you almost got all my light. But it turns out we both were out here drowning. The lighthouse is up there. I don’t know who that is, but it wasn’t me. And it’s like your ego gets in check, and you’re like, okay. And you’re like, I’m not even that. We’re both out here in the dark, just treading water, and we’re not finding each other and we’re not getting there. But it’s interesting because then it makes you think about all those things that you put on yourself, once again, from childhood, that you didn’t even realize you did, you know?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. I want to ask about that light because I was married before and I resonate so deeply with when you say in lighthouse how you almost lost your light. And it was so slow and so imperceptible that I didn’t even realize it at the time. I just kind of folded myself into him and I thought that I was happy, and I didn’t even know till I was out of it how truly sick I was in it.
Kelly Clarkson:
Yep. You didn’t even know, even all the things that you accepted as that’s normal are incredibly unhealthy and abusive almost. It’s like without anyone knowing or whatever, people just living their lives how they live them, how they’ve acted their whole life, you don’t even recognize it. And then you get out, and I remember we were at the photo shoot for chemistry. Even being at that photo shoot, it was the first time everybody, like even my whole team that’s known me pre him, after him, all that, were like, oh my God, there you are. I didn’t even realize it.
Kelly Clarkson:
And then all of a sudden I was like, oh my God, I’m having fun. This is so much fun. The photographer, Brian Bowen Smith, is incredible. And he really got the message of the album and artistically kind of wrapped that in visually, even my clothes I was wearing, how I looked, how I laughed, the rock and roll side of me, all of that. Everything was so different and I didn’t even realize it until after, that you had not dumbed yourself down, but you had belittled who you are to make sure everybody else felt secure or fine or-
Abby Wambach:
You dimmed your light, you actually dimmed your light.
Kelly Clarkson:
But I love how you said that, because in the song, it’s funny you just said that because in the song, I was like, I don’t know if I want to give that power, that control away. Wording is so important. But I did feel that at the time. It was like you almost took all my light or I almost lost all my light kind of thing. But it’s like I turned it into like, you’re right, it’s like I allowed that to happen. So for people, because by no means am I a victim in that, you allow someone to do that. You maybe don’t notice you’re doing it. And like you said, it’s imperceptible, it’s gradual, and you don’t even realize what’s happening because it happened so gradually.
Kelly Clarkson:
But I like that you said that that is the thing, you choose to dim it, you choose, and it’s like, I don’t know. I think in life it’s like if I’m not around people, friends, family, lover, whatever, that are okay with the amount of light I have, then we’re just not meant to be together. You know what I’m saying? That’s okay. But to dull yourself so you feel like somebody else could shine or so you feel like you’re not in the way or you’re not, whatever the situation is, that’s not a healthy way to live.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
For sure.
Kelly Clarkson:
And it’s not a healthy example for your child to look at you and see that.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It’s like we’re teaching them what love is, right? So if you teach them that love is quieting yourself so that you can be with, because love should actually be the emergence of you. You should be more yourself in love than at any other time. And when we show them that it’s the opposite, that’s kind of scary.
Kelly Clarkson:
I’ve never experienced that.
Glennon Doyle:
You’ve never experienced that.
Kelly Clarkson:
I’ve experienced love, deep love, but working through a lot of stuff, I don’t think I’ve ever experienced that.
Amanda Doyle:
Like a love that makes you more you, is that what you’re saying? You haven’t experienced a love that makes you more of you instead of less of you?
Kelly Clarkson:
Yeah, I don’t think I’ve experienced that. I don’t think that other than, I mean, speaking with a significant other, I’ve experienced that with friendships or family, but I don’t think I’ve ever experienced that. And honestly, I’m a firework and I’m okay with that. But I’m very spontaneous and I’m very communicative and I’m very, I’m just very, any word that can go with very, I’m generally that. I’m a walking empath. I’m just very. So I think it’s got to be somebody that can not, I don’t want to say the word handle that. I mean, I think somebody that prizes that, that thinks that’s cool.
Kelly Clarkson:
Or if not, I’ve got to be honest with you, these past three years, yes, they’ve been hard. But I was talking this the other day, The Voice wrap party, obviously I’m moving to New York, so I’m not doing The Voice right now either. So it was Blake and I’s last thing for a minute. And never say never, but just for me it’s probably good for right now, it’s been nine seasons and we were at this wrap party and we’re all there and everyone’s hanging out. The crew, a lot of those crew are also Kelly Clarkson Show crew too. So I just knew a ton of people there. I had some tequila and I danced for three hours straight practically. I had the time of my life because I just, there’s something freeing about-
Glennon Doyle:
Tequila?
Kelly Clarkson:
Not having to worry. Yes, but not having to worry about if your significant other, oh, are you feeling alone because I’m dancing and you’re not dancing? Are you feeling like … It’s always like feeling everybody else’s feelings. And sometimes it’s nice just to be alone and just in your own world and experiencing your own bliss and your own, I literally danced with everyone. I don’t think there’s a soul there I didn’t dance with. I mean, I had so much fun and it was just a freeing night because I wasn’t in a relationship before my ex. I literally was basically single till 30, and I was in and out like two, but not really. It was months. But I just mean like real relationship, it’s really only him.
Kelly Clarkson:
So I’m pretty good at rocking life like a loner because I like going to different groups of people and having conversations. I’m just that person. But there’s something just so freeing about it. I think that people from the South especially will leave one relationship, jump into another, and I’m like, I can’t do that. I can’t. I’m not ready for it either. But I can’t do that.
Glennon Doyle:
When I’m picturing you at the party, I was just thinking it’s because you didn’t have somebody who feels weak standing next to you.
Kelly Clarkson:
Girl, that line-
Glennon Doyle:
That line.
Kelly Clarkson:
Girl, that line, I was like, am I going to say this? I literally was like, am I going to write that? I was like-
Amanda Doyle:
You said it and all the angels began to sing, that’s what happened.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, because it’s so real. It’s so real.
Kelly Clarkson:
It’s very true and honest. And I feel like a lot of people can relate to that. And I also feel like it wasn’t supposed to be accusatory by any means. It’s just-
Glennon Doyle:
It’s honest.
Kelly Clarkson:
It’s just that we are not, this is not clicking. Me being able to be the best version of myself or you being able to be the best version of you, this is not it. I don’t know what it is, but this isn’t it.
Amanda Doyle:
But it’s a real phenomenon. On these conversations together, we’ve had so many powerful discussions about really powerful women and the men in their orbit not being able to handle it, it just being at best case accommodating it or acclimating it, but certainly not, as you said, prizing it or celebrating it. And that line that you had in me, “I told you I wanted you, but you needed me to need you.”
Kelly Clarkson:
I’m sorry, ma’am. Are you picking every favorite line of mine on my album? I was like, wait. I was like-
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, your favorite lines are my favorite lines.
Kelly Clarkson:
That’s what I was saying. I was like, I’m sorry ma’am. Wait, what? I was like, no. Yeah. Yep.
Amanda Doyle:
But why do people need to be needed instead of-
Kelly Clarkson:
Isn’t it far-
Amanda Doyle:
Being wanted?
Kelly Clarkson:
Isn’t it far more impressive and powerful that you would choose, I do not need you, I am choosing you because I want to be around you. I crave you. I don’t need you. But there’s a difference. And well, it’s control is a big player there and manipulation and all those things, those little fun things come into play. That’s the thing that I think broke my heart the most was like, I just think that’s the most beautiful thing to say. And to this person, I’ve never said that to anyone. You’re the only person I’ve ever even said that to or felt that for. How powerful is that?
Kelly Clarkson:
But it’s not enough. It’s not enough for people sometimes. And that’s okay. That’s not how they want to be loved and that’s not what they need in a relationship and that’s what it is. But yeah, that’s one of my, I was like, I’m fitting that in one of these songs because I feel like I said it till I was blue in the face. I was just like, I don’t understand. I just couldn’t comprehend how you couldn’t see that as more beautiful and more, I don’t know, just closer. Because there’s a difference. If somebody’s financially dependent upon someone or if somebody’s emotionally dependent upon someone, any kind of dependency I feel like takes away from what the core loving relationship should be. It’s like, no, no, I don’t need you for any of that. I’m just choosing you.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. I give my love freely to you.
Kelly Clarkson:
Freely.
Amanda Doyle:
Because I want you, not because I need you-
Kelly Clarkson:
I could freely be giving it to anyone, and I’m freely giving it to you and only you. I think that’s so beautiful. People don’t agree. I’m just going to be honest, people don’t agree. And I’ll say this because I know you pointed out women, and I do know obviously women with that too, but I know a couple dudes as well, that have the same thing happens to men too. They can till they’re blue in the face say, I have friends that are like, I can try and make them feel as confident in the relationship, as comfortable, I can try and try and unless they see it in themselves, they’re never going to receive it from me. That happens to a lot of people.
Glennon Doyle:
I think that people who depend on being needed instead of wanted, which I get, too, I think it might also come from a lack of any sort of self or self-worth. Because when you need to be needed, it’s transactional. So you’re like, I know what I’m giving you. But if you’re just being chosen, that has to be based on your humanity and not just what you can do for the other person. And that requires a hell of a lot of self-worth.
Abby Wambach:
And vulnerability. That happened to me growing up. I tried to transactionally keep people on my life because I was too afraid to let whatever the relationship will be be. I was trying to control it.
Kelly Clarkson:
And you didn’t want to lose it. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m just thinking about the beautiful, there’s so many beautiful things about you, and as I’m listening to you talk, I’m realizing why I love you so much, which is because you hold two things at once all the time. You’re not a this or this type person. You’re embracing all of it.
Glennon Doyle:
And I’m thinking about how we’re taught all of these things that are goodness, that are hope, belief in people, potential, falling in love, even, these are all the things that are held up and these are the most beautiful things in the world. And they’re what make life living. And they’re also what fuck us completely, right?
Kelly Clarkson:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Like falling in love. What the hell? When we were listening to your album, I think, which is the song, best kind of high, what’s the song that we were listening to?
Kelly Clarkson:
Favorite kind of high.
Glennon Doyle:
Favorite kind of high, yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
I love favorite kind of high.
Glennon Doyle:
My sister and I were talking about how we don’t get wasted and go buy cars.
Abby Wambach:
Some people do, I don’t know.
Glennon Doyle:
We’re not like, okay, I have to make a huge decision. Let’s go house hunting. So I’m going to get totally shit-faced before I go house hunting. But then we choose our life partners when we are in love, which is just basically being really high.
Kelly Clarkson:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
What the hell with that?
Kelly Clarkson:
I don’t know, but-
Glennon Doyle:
Is there a better system?
Kelly Clarkson:
I’ll tell you why. Because there’s nothing like it, man. There is something like it in other things. I mean, with motherhood and kids and that, that’s a whole other thing. But when it comes to just you, your own world, significant others in that sense, there’s nothing like … Even the first time I met my ex, he passed by me and I felt altered. I felt different. It’s like, wait, what? And I was like, well, I’ve never felt that before. I mean, I will take your clothes off with my teeth. That kind of just carnal, I’m just like, where did that come from? And that kind of high.
Kelly Clarkson:
And even in the beginning, and it wasn’t for years later, by the way, we didn’t even run into each other again and see, but I wouldn’t settle. That’s the difference. Once you feel something like that, once you know that exists, you’re like, well, I’m not settling until I feel that again. Because we deserve that. That’s such a beautiful, you feel it in your whole body. It’s just a beautiful high, that of course we gravitate towards that. And of course we make stupid decisions when it comes to that because it feels so good. It’s like why addicts are addicts, I assume as well. Well, I don’t assume, I love sugar, but it’s like we’re all addicts for some reason, for something.
Kelly Clarkson:
But I just mean, it feels good and it makes you feel good. There’s just nothing like it, there’s nothing. I have yet to find anything that kind of high. And then them calling you or you’re texting in the beginning and all that kind of stuff. It’s just, it’s exciting.
Abby Wambach:
It feels like the high of clarity.
Glennon Doyle:
But it’s the opposite.
Kelly Clarkson:
But you’re also, so you’re just hyper focused.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re hyper focused.
Kelly Clarkson:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
I took your lyrics, that’s so interesting that when you were talking about, it’s such a shame when our wants and needs don’t align, being like, I want to make this work, but it can’t work, I took that as, because I had the exact same the first time I locked eyes with my first husband. I was like, well, goodnight, moon.
Kelly Clarkson:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
And then a few years later, it was a real kick in the shorts. It just was.
Glennon Doyle:
Wake up, moon.
Amanda Doyle:
Good morning, sun. But I took that as like, oh, some of the things that I want undeniably are not things that I need. How do I learn to want what I need instead of to really want what I really don’t need?
Kelly Clarkson:
I don’t know, I think that comes back to self-worth too, though, prizing yourself. Even if it feels like, okay, back to sugar, I love sugar, but it’s not good for you. So you do all the things you’re supposed to do, but I think you do initially, I mean, literally it’s coming off of a drug when you stop doing that. So it’s like once you get through that, the tug of war, and you get on the other side, you feel better. You just feel better. You feel more clarity. You just feel more, I don’t know, grounded. You feel less emotional.
Kelly Clarkson:
Because that’s the thing too, is in that kind of relationship, you want to be, you don’t need it, it’s like there’s always this tug of war happening of like, oh my God, I love you, but God, I hate you. You are just horrible. Or God, there’s nobody I could picture myself being with. And then you go back and forth, and that’s not healthy. That’s just emotionally being just like just going agh all the time. There’s no rest in there. So it’s the same thing.
Kelly Clarkson:
That’s why I was making the metaphor with sugar. I feel like I could be very emotional all the time and it’s always, it changes your body. It’s not good for you. So it’s like, but you finally get away from that and you realize how, okay, this actually feels better, what I’m doing actually feels better for me. But I think it comes down to, for me, just prizing how you feel instead of how someone makes you feel. Because that can be very confusing, especially when it comes to not just love but lust.
Glennon Doyle:
And we’re learning a lot about how that initial attraction, I mean, this is fascinating me lately, that initial woah.
Kelly Clarkson:
Yeah, like why do we do it for some people, but not everybody? We’re all humans. I don’t understand.
Glennon Doyle:
A lot of people are now teaching us that it’s actually more tied to anxiety than love. It’s something that’s activating inside of us. It has to do with our original attachment. So I think in 20 years we’re going to start seeing that first initial rush as less of a sign of a green go and more of a, hold on, this could be a red flag.
Glennon Doyle:
If we get caught in the middle of an intersection and cars are going oof, we’re not like, oh, I can’t wait to get this feeling back because that’s like anxiety, danger, danger, fire. There’s part of initial lust. And also, is the problem that we just keep marrying people? Could we just have sex with them? Do you know what I mean? Is the initial attraction, maybe we just don’t have to keep marrying everyone that we fall-
Kelly Clarkson:
And that’s why I’m so glad you said it, because people right after, I mean, right after, even like separated, it was announced and it came out, like, “Oh, hey, I know someone.” I’m like, “Are you insane? It better be a really great therapist. I don’t want to talk to anyone right now. I’m still processing.” And even now, like I said, I danced for three hours and I had such a great night. And I think people feel, and also, where I’m from, it’s like very, you like someone, then you date them, you love them, you get married, you have children, you receive your pension. It’s all these things that are just boop, boop, boop.
Kelly Clarkson:
And it’s like that’s not how it is for a lot of us. I was literally having this conversation in the middle of nowhere on my ranch up in the mountains with my mother, and she was talking, I don’t know if she said, “Do you think you’ll ever get married again?” I don’t think she would’ve said that, but somehow it came up, and I was like, it’s not that I’m against marriage. I think marriage is beautiful. I think it’s amazing. I just don’t think that it necessarily is for everyone. I mean, I get why people love apple pie, but is it my favorite pie? Do I have to have apple pie? No. I don’t want it. I don’t necessarily want it. Just because everybody’s like, this is the best pie you’ve ever had doesn’t mean I want to eat it.
Kelly Clarkson:
I don’t feel like everybody needs to do the same thing because we’re all at different points in our life, and even career wise. I love having, like you said, a lot of things. I thrive in that environment. I’m the best version of me when I’m productive. I’m the best mother when I’m productive. I’m just better. I figured that out for me. That’s not everyone. And I have goals that I want to do. I don’t have time for marriage. If people think you’re just going to get married and it’s like going to be … It’s work. It is so much work. Even if you are in love like you’ve never been in love in your life, it is work either way. It is day in and day out work. I don’t mean to sound, it’s not horrible. I just mean it’s just a lot of work for communication.
Kelly Clarkson:
And we’re ever changing. We read something, it inspires us. It might not inspire that person. They’re so annoyed by it. Why are we all of a sudden that, you know what I’m saying? I don’t know that I’ll ever get married again. I’m not against marriage. I would love to fall in love. I would love to experience that. I would love whatever the future holds, I’m open to it. But I think people get married all the time for sometimes reasons that they just feel forced. It’s the next step. That is not why you should get married.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you feel in your life these days, in your work, in your everywhere life that you’re kind of getting to dance alone now? You don’t have to have that double consciousness? Because your work, and when I see you singing and doing your show and all, it feels very like you’re in your body, you’re doing your thing, you’re dancing. And did you before have to always make sure you weren’t being too successful, you weren’t being too me, me, me, and now you get to just do that without worry?
Kelly Clarkson:
I felt limited. Yes. And I don’t feel like that’s necessarily the truth for all marriage. I just think that was for in my case, I just felt limited. But if you’re on the same path at the same time and you’re actually working together and every day communicating together and doing the work, I think that it could be beautiful, but for me it wasn’t that and it was very limiting.
Kelly Clarkson:
Not to say that that’s just his fault. That’s my fault, for allowing that to happen. That’s my work as well. It can also be limiting, like I said, because maybe as in love as I was, I just wasn’t ready and maybe the other person wasn’t either. And you just try and make it work and it doesn’t.
Abby Wambach:
I know. And I think that we can like dog marriage a little bit, I know that, because we’ve all had our struggles with marriages before. But I do think the things that I’ve learned the most about myself was through the heartbreak of losing a marriage. There has been nothing in my life that has taught me more about myself. So as much as I do think we need to be conscious and not necessarily be intoxicated with the in love feelings before we make the decision to get married, I do think it’s important to note that it’s not all for naught, for those of us who want to do the work.
Amanda Doyle:
And it’s also in support of marriage. Kelly, the reason you left your marriage is because you believed that it could be better than it was.
Abby Wambach:
True.
Amanda Doyle:
When I heard you say, I kept trying to make it work, but I didn’t want to make it work, I wanted to make it beautiful, I was like, oh my God, yes. We are all like, make it work, make it work, as if that is the gold standard, is that it works. I can make a pile of shit work, but should I? I want it to be beautiful.
Kelly Clarkson:
Yeah. That’s the same thing, too, I was just talking about somebody else in a different area of under my umbrella, and it was like, yeah, I can take all that on and I could do that, but that’s not fair. And just because I can do it doesn’t mean I have to or should. And here’s the thing, too. I think sometimes we focus so much on finding the person instead of the people, because there’s no way one person, in my opinion, and I love humans, I really do, even the shitty ones, apparently, I just will give a lot of leeway. But it’s not about, I feel like we put a lot on marriage too, and partnership, because it’s like there’s no way somebody is going to be able to accomplish all of that for you, and there’s no way you should put that on them.
Kelly Clarkson:
I remember, even in my marriage, I would constantly be like, “Hey, are you going to go hang with your friends? I’ll go hang with my friends.” That is very important, instead of isolating each other and just only being you all the time. Nobody learns in that environment. If you’re having the same conversations with the same people and the same, you know what I’m saying? You need others in your life. And when you’re in a relationship and that’s not necessarily promoted, that’s a giant red flag. That’s why I’m such a big thing on, you know, you are the group you surround yourself, are those people that make you better? Are those people you would want to be? Those people are good for you.
Kelly Clarkson:
And I feel like that’s the thing, yes, you can choose to spend your life, and I would love to find a partner to spend my life with and have fun with and go bowling with and drink tequila with and dance with and all those things. But at the same time, and also that loves reading and also loves just things that I’m really into. But also, I just feel like you don’t need to hinge all that on one person. I think that you can get that from your village of people that you surround yourself with.
Glennon Doyle:
So we started this conversation talking about the circular lessons we learn over and over again.
Abby Wambach:
I’m so glad you’re following that.
Kelly Clarkson:
Super fun.
Abby Wambach:
I’m so glad you’re going to go here.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like a spiral staircase, right? Life is a spiral staircase. We keep spinning around, coming around to the same lessons, and the only thing that’s different is that our thighs are a little stronger. We’re just a little stronger when we get to the next problem. We have a little bit of a higher perspective, but it’s the same shit.
Glennon Doyle:
If you had to, at the end of the day, get really honest with yourself, what lesson did this whole relationship, and it’s not even the relationship, it’s who you were in the beginning, middle, and end, teach you?
Kelly Clarkson:
Really, to boil it down, I feel like it’s to not only be honest about those that are around me, but honest about myself. I think it’s honesty, because I think, I mean, by no means do I think I’ve ever been a liar. I just mean I think we mold things and shake them to justify them instead of just being truly honest about what’s really happening. Because you don’t want it to be that way, because once again, your wants and your needs are different.
Kelly Clarkson:
So I think it’s just being honest about, I don’t really want that, that’s not for me. And that’s cool that you want, like and being okay and comfortable enough, coming back to what you’re talking about, coming back to not having transactional relationships and not having just that fear of losing someone if you’re so honest with them. Because you’re going to lose them anyway, if you’re not being honest. So I think honesty, just being really, truly honest about who people are, including yourself. That’s a big one for me.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, listen, you can talk all the days long. Your people know you as this lighthouse. To me, you are truth. And that is why people are attracted to you, Kelly.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Abby Wambach:
It’s because they can see the truth in you and you speak the truth, and you are just so open and honest, and I just feel so inspired by that. Not many people in your position, in your industry, are the way you are. That is why people love you. I think it’s fucking cool.
Kelly Clarkson:
Thank you.
Abby Wambach:
You’re so fucking awesome.
Kelly Clarkson:
Thank you. You made me feel cool. I was like, okay. No, I love, that’s so nice. Thank you. I think at a certain age though too, we just get tired of trying to make everything shine. Sometimes a turd’s a turd. Keep polishing. It’s like sometimes it’s what it is, so it’s okay.
Glennon Doyle:
I will tell you that I’m glad no one’s ever said to me over and over again, you’re the light. That sounds like bullshit. That’s why you make your reputation, Kelly, as a depressed introvert, and then no one expects shit from you at a party.
Kelly Clarkson:
But what’s funny is everybody thinks I’m an extrovert. I am an extrovert, but I think I am by practice because I am quite an introvert as well. People are always like, “Hey, let’s hang.” I don’t hang. I hang with literally my village. And then we get it together, forcibly because my therapist made me, once a week to have a life. We go out. But I’m kind of that way, too. I’m a Netflix and chill person. Or I don’t know. I’m not as what I think everybody perceives me a lot of the time because I feel like I’ve just been trained to be that way.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, exactly.
Kelly Clarkson:
So it’s interesting, that whole conversation about extrovert or introvert. I feel like we’re all a little of both.
Abby Wambach:
For sure. You’re on a spectrum.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, Kelly, you asked before, it’s hard to know whether you’re doing things right or wrong, and I don’t think that that’s the question. I think you’re doing things true. And in the spirit of truth, before we end, I’m going to tell you something that my teenage daughter told me after I made an announcement at one of her get togethers, which is, “Mom, Netflix and chill doesn’t mean what you think it means. If you could stop saying Netflix and chill in front of my friends, that would be great, because Netflix and chill does not mean sit on the couch and watch Netflix. It means have sex.”
Kelly Clarkson:
I would love to Netflix and chill. No, I’m actually, I’m actually meaning it exactly how I said it. Let’s just keep it real. Yeah, I like to sit on the couch and watch a movie, but I’d also like to do other things.
Amanda Doyle:
So hopefully the movie is followed by having a lot of sex.
Glennon Doyle:
So next time-
Kelly Clarkson:
There can be an intermission, people.
Glennon Doyle:
Next time a dude walks by you and you feel altered, we’re not going to the altar. We’re going to Netflix and chill.
Kelly Clarkson:
Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
Amen. We love you, Kelly Clarkson. Never change.
Kelly Clarkson:
Oh, I love you all too. I was so looking forward to this. Thank you for having me.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, it was a dream. We love you.
Amanda Doyle:
Everyone get excited for chemistry.
Kelly Clarkson:
Chemistry.
Amanda Doyle:
It is unreal.
Kelly Clarkson:
Aww, thank y’all for listening. That means a lot.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, so good.
Abby Wambach:
You’re the best.
Kelly Clarkson:
All right. I love y’all.
Amanda Doyle:
Love you, too.
Glennon Doyle:
Kelly, thank you so much.
Abby Wambach:
See you guys next time. Bye.
Kelly Clarkson:
All right, bye y’all.
Glennon Doyle:
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you’d be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you’ll never miss an episode and it helps us because you’ll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod.
Glennon Doyle:
While you’re there, if you’d be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.