Why Etiquette is B.S. & New Rules for Living
March 21, 2023
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome to We Can do Hard Things and it’s just the three of us today, and while we absolutely love having guests, there’s something that makes me so happy about when it’s just the three of us. Because when we have a guest-
Amanda Doyle:
Just the three of us, we can make it if we try.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, that’s enough. When it’s just the three of us, it kind of feels like it does when we’re at our house and there’s just the three of us and there’s no one else to worry about. I don’t know, I just feel more relaxed.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s a really nice segue to our topic today, which is bad manners.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. Bad manners. So this article came out a while back that I loved and thought was so fun to read and it was about the new etiquette. It was, The Cut put it out through New York Magazine and I was intrigued by it, just by the title because etiquette has always been a hot topic in my life, our family, marriage, the whole thing. So Abby went to etiquette school.
Amanda Doyle:
No, she did not.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, she did. Tell us why you went to etiquette school, why your mother sent you to etiquette school when you were little?
Abby Wambach:
Well, I’m the youngest of seven and the way that it’s organized is two girls, four boys and then me. So my sisters went off to college when I was like eight, 10 years old and my mom realized that I was burping and farting and still running around with my shirt off because I had these four boys around. So she thought to herself, “Self, we need to fix this daughter of mine.”
Amanda Doyle:
The four boys that were burping and farting, that was not flagged as a problem. You were the one sent to etiquette school, they were not?
Abby Wambach:
That’s correct, yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay, just clarifying that.
Abby Wambach:
That’s correct.
Glennon Doyle:
So Abby goes to etiquette school. She learns all kinds of things like where to put your silverware and-
Abby Wambach:
How to curtsy, how to properly sit, how to cross your legs underneath a chair, I had to wear gloves.
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, thank God you learned to curtsy.
Glennon Doyle:
She wore gloves.
Abby Wambach:
How would I be able-
Amanda Doyle:
Thank God you learned to curtsy because April is coming upon us and it’s curtsy season and it’s just really important that you-
Abby Wambach:
How would I ever been able to accept all of those awards had I not known how to curtsy?
Glennon Doyle:
I just wanted everyone, the pod squad, to slowly imagine Abby accepting the FIFA World Player of the Year and curtsying as they hand it to her. But what you do need to know is that when we started dating, she would do her etiquette. We’d be at dinner and she’d be like putting her fork across her plate in a certain way or doing all of these things-
Abby Wambach:
Because you can only eat with your right hand, which is so mean to left-handed eaters. I know.
Glennon Doyle:
Hello, I am left-handed. Just that pisses me off. So I have this … I’ll try to explain it to the pod squad. I am anti-etiquette. My parents never taught us etiquette. We don’t know anything. But I have always been a little bit proud of that. I’m going to tell you this story, pod squad, and I’m not saying I am right. I’m just explaining to you what happened in our marriage. Abby is always doing all of these etiquette-y things and there’s this one time we’re out to dinner and she does her fancy thing and I just am outwardly uncomfortable and she says, “What is wrong?” and I say, “I don’t know how to explain it, but I just feel like what you’re doing with your silverware is racist.” That is not correct, except it’s a little bit correct, and she looked at me like I was nuts and I couldn’t explain why, so then I felt nuts.
Abby Wambach:
I was just eating. I was just eating.
Glennon Doyle:
But here’s the thing about etiquette. I believe in etiquette as I think this article suggests etiquette, which is etiquette as a way of living amongst other people in a considerate manner.
Abby Wambach:
That’s better than what I think about it.
Glennon Doyle:
What I do not like is the etiquette. That is not about that. It is not about living amongst others with consideration. It is about signaling your own class or superiority through a set of confusing actions that is like a secret language that signals superiority. Okay? P.S, I’m sure … See, this is what happens in our relationship with my sister, is that I explain a lot of feelings, like I just feel like arranging silverware a certain way is racist and I can’t tell anyone else that, and she says, “Let me explain to you why …”
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. I say, ding, ding, ding, ding. There are actual facts you can say that support your feelings of this.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Would you like me to tell you them?
Glennon Doyle:
Please do.
Abby Wambach:
Makes me feel terrible about myself.
Amanda Doyle:
No, no, no, no, no. It’s not to be terrible. So etiquette is, as you’ve said this, it’s a code of proper conduct and it’s to demonstrate yourself as courteous. Okay, we’re going back to courteous. This is coming from the word court, which etiquette was established by the courts of kings and queens and the aristocracy to follow to be acceptable to be in their presence. So the origin of the word etiquette is ticket. It is acting in a way in the hopes of being considered acceptable to have a ticket into a certain level of society. It’s meant to indicate that you know more or have access to some specific kind of knowledge that others don’t have access to. That’s etiquette. It’s another way of saying through your actions, “I know better. I was raised better.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
You can only be better if someone else is worse. You can only be in if someone else is out. So when you’re talking about the racism piece, where that comes in is the whole etiquette was made to established civilized groups in opposition to uncivilized groups. That went way beyond just social casts of hierarchical differences among people. It has been a way of justifying the most violent behavior on our planet. If a civilized society can only be defined in opposition to a society that’s deemed uncivilized, that’s where you get notions of barbaric and animalistic and heathens and all of that, and that’s the way you dehumanize people in order to make violence against them justifiable.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s the way colonialism spread throughout the whole globe. It’s this idea that it’s not only acceptable to take over uncivilized people’s land, it’s actually beneficial to them because you are doing the work of civilizing them.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s the same thing that justified slavery. It’s the same thing that justified English oppression over Irish people. It’s the same thing that happened in America with this idea of we’re taking over the land of uncivilized Native Americans, even though our democracy incidentally is based on the constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy. But they were uncivilized enough to take over the land, so there is a very, very racist origin.
Glennon Doyle:
And I knew all that when we were sitting at dinner. I knew all that and I just-
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, you did.
Glennon Doyle:
I didn’t have time to say all of that, but that is what I knew. So when you have the hunch that something doesn’t add up, you know how you have those experiences where you’re like, “I feel like this thing is racist, but I can’t explain it,” like Cracker Barrel or golf, there’s something there. There’s something there. Okay?
Abby Wambach:
You’re basically ruining my favorite things.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, take a look at yourself.
Abby Wambach:
Food, golf.
Glennon Doyle:
Here’s what I want to explain about myself is my favorite story about etiquette ever and manners and the difference. So imagine the White House. Eleanor Roosevelt is in the White House. She’s having one of those dinners that the first ladies always have to have with all the people. So they have fancy people at the dinner and then also some regular people that they have brought into the White House. They’re all sitting at this huge table and back then they have these little small bowls to the side of every plate and the little bowls are filled with water. The idea is that you put your fingers in to wash your fingers before you, I don’t know, some etiquette shit. You put your fingers in at that time and wash your hands before you eat.
Abby Wambach:
Well, it was probably to wash their hands from the appetizer because it was probably a finger eating appetizer.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, Ms. Manners. So that’s what was happening.
Abby Wambach:
Or to also wash your hands before you eat.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
Or also maybe there were small puppies on the table that needed something to drink.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, now we’re talking.
Abby Wambach:
Some little kittens.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh god, that’s so good. Okay, so one of the regular dudes hasn’t gotten the ticket. He doesn’t know what this water bowl is, so he picks up the water bowl and starts drinking from it. He takes a sip and the table just freezes, right? Because this man has a broken etiquette. So everyone is just staring at him and then they all look at Eleanor Roosevelt. What does Eleanor Roosevelt do? She reaches out her hand, she picks up the tiny water bowl and she starts drinking out of the water bowl as well.
Abby Wambach:
That’s cool.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, pod squad, I cannot emphasize how much I love this story-
Abby Wambach:
She’s cool.
Glennon Doyle:
And how much I think about it. To me etiquette is about making someone else feel comfortable and equal, not unequal in the moment. The reason I love that Eleanor Roosevelt story is because you choose the kind thing above the signaling class thing, and that is the manners.
Abby Wambach:
That is true etiquette.
Amanda Doyle:
For me, I think yes, there’s etiquette and that’s one thing, and then there’s manners and that’s another thing. If etiquette is the idea of saying, “This is me getting access to this certain level and you don’t have access to it because you’re not doing what I do”, then manners is this kind of way to reflect, respect, kindness, consideration for others. It’s like are you doing your part to make all of society acceptable for all people? There’s no in and out group to treat yourself and others with dignity and respect and make it accessible to all people. That feels like it’s manners.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And etiquette is meant to be exclusive and inaccessible. If anything is a test, it’s etiquette. If anything is a hug, it’s manners.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. Okay, so we’re going for manners is what we’re going to call it.
Glennon Doyle:
Here’s a tricky one that the pod squad is going to have a lot of feelings about. There are a lot of people who are taught that saying sir or ma’am is good etiquette. It is polite, it is a signal of respect. In many cultures, that is a kind, good thing. I think a lot about are we sure that’s the kindest thing? Because in our world and with Abby, I see misgendering happening all the time and someone teaching children over and over again to assume what gender someone is as a matter of etiquette. It might signal that your kids have the kind of manners you want them to have, it might be a signal that your family is giving, but is it kindness to other people? We don’t guess people’s religion so why are we guessing people’s gender?
Abby Wambach:
It’s like etiquette is about the self and what you’re trying to exude and manners is about the other and what you’re trying to make them feel. I have a follow-up question about the Eleanor Roosevelt. Did everybody else at the table drink the water?
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t know.
Amanda Doyle:
I have another follow up. Did you fact check that?
Glennon Doyle:
I mean, what do you think? I feelings checked it. I feelings checked it.
Amanda Doyle:
You feelings checked it? It checked out?
Glennon Doyle:
I felt like it’s true. I don’t know if it happened. I just know it’s true. It might be an allegory.
Abby Wambach:
But I think it’s interesting because we’re talking about etiquette and then the kind thing that Eleanor did with her manners to make this person not feel alone or different, it’s like a science experiment to see if everybody else followed suit with Eleanor.
Glennon Doyle:
I just love it because there’s a moment when somebody is trying to say something but they spell their wrong. There is a moment where you decide, “Am I going to choose signaling that I know better or offering kindness and belonging by not signaling that I know better and responding to the content that that person said as opposed to the code that they broke?” It’s choosing whether to signal my own superiority or not.
Amanda Doyle:
There’s also this idea that cross-culturally this entirely breaks down. In Ethiopia, if you were to eat with a fork, it would be offensive. You eat with your fingers in a group together. It’s only when we started being very individualistic that we ever had our own plates or own cups. There’s this idea that you think something’s wrong when you actually don’t know where that culture is coming from. You can’t say it’s wrong. It’s wrong to you for your specific cultural place.
Glennon Doyle:
If I were at a table there in Ethiopia and I did it wrong, I would hope that everybody would Eleanor Roosevelt me. I mean, there’s a lot of etiquette that’s totally ableist. I used to talk about how much it drove me crazy that people were late, and then a lot of people talk to me about how that is something that is super tricky for people with ADHD and how there’s a lot of that thinking that’s very patriarchal. You’re absolutely right. But that just proves our point, that it’s a signaling of the culture that you’re trying to signal you’re in.
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s move on to these actual ideas that The Cut through the New York Magazine put out and that we’ve been talking about ourselves. These are the ideas that people who wrote this article signaled were the new etiquette, were the new manners, were the new way-
Amanda Doyle:
It’s the new rules to straighten up and fly right. It’s like, “Get your shit in a pile, world. Here’s the new rules.”
Glennon Doyle:
But the reason I like the article is that it felt a lot like they were heavy on how to together exist with other human beings in a way that is-
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, some of them. Some of them were like Yikes McBikes.
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s take a look, because I can’t wait to talk about the ones you thought were Yikes McBikes.
Amanda Doyle:
We should add new ones.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
We should go with those too.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I’m going to run through some of these and you all tell me what you think. Okay, The Cut said that everybody should always split the bill evenly at a dinner.
Abby Wambach:
That’s a toughie for me.
Glennon Doyle:
I hate that one. I don’t agree.
Abby Wambach:
I just think that you can get very complicated. Splitting the bill makes me anxious to begin with, but you get complicated because what if I order a $100 steak and-
Amanda Doyle:
Then you preemptively say, “I want to order a $100 steak, so I’m going to be paying for my thing.” You don’t have to only order what everyone else orders, but if you’re going to go out there and be like, “I want the $100 bottle of wine and I want the $100 steak”, then you say it so that everyone else isn’t nervous sitting with you, that they’re ordering a salad, but they’re going to be paying $75.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like if you are drinking and there’s someone that’s not drinking, if you are ordering a lot-
Abby Wambach:
Why don’t you just pay for what you ordered?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, that’s not splitting the bill evenly, right?
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like everyone should pay for what they ordered, but I understand that that’s complicated.
Abby Wambach:
Especially now with Venmo. Have one person pay for the bill to make it less complicated and then everybody looks at their thing and then Venmo’s the person because there’s always somebody who got the least and they might have been doing it on purpose because they’re struggling to pay their bills that month or whatever they’re saving, whatever the reasons are, that also deserves to be honored.
Glennon Doyle:
I agree. Then if you find a way to do it, if one person can do it on their credit card and then Venmo, that’s cool. If there’s somebody that can do that, that’s kind to the servers because then they don’t have to split 70 bills. For us, we think everyone should pay for what they ordered and then one person pays for it and then everybody Venmos. Is that our best take on this?
Abby Wambach:
Don’t forget the tip. Don’t forget the tip.
Amanda Doyle:
Unless there’s a group. I’m just going to say if there’s a group that you regularly go out to eat with, a group of friends, it all comes out in the wash situation, then you just split it evenly and then the people who did the drinking do the tip.
Glennon Doyle:
Excellent. That’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
People who didn’t drink, don’t give a tip.
Abby Wambach:
I like that. I like that. Also, it never all comes out in the wash.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Abby Wambach:
I just am saying that that’s a phrase I used to use when I was the biggest drinker at the table.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Abby Wambach:
It never comes out in the wash.
Glennon Doyle:
The people who say that are the ones who are washing the most.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
All right.
Glennon Doyle:
Also tipping is just, for my thought about that, if you can’t afford to tip 20%, then you just go to a less expensive restaurant.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s the cost of doing business, people.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s the cost of doing business. They said if you’re going to cancel on somebody, a social event, you have to cancel before 2:00 PM and then it’s fair game. After 2:00 PM you can’t cancel.
Abby Wambach:
What?
Glennon Doyle:
I’m going to recuse myself from this because canceling is my love language.
Amanda Doyle:
One thing I like to do is know that I can’t do the thing for the three days leading up and then wait and then cancel later. What is that about? That’s not an ideal plan. Cancel when you know you can’t go and there’s a certain period after like, sorry, you just have to go.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you think you’re waiting … Because I think sometimes I wait hoping that the other person will cancel, like it’s a game of chicken.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, possibly.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, this is all good and fine, but why make a plan if you’re going to cancel?
Glennon Doyle:
I know. I agree. This is a great question.
Abby Wambach:
What the hell is the fucking point? Don’t make a fucking plan.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s because it’s the same reason I buy broccoli at the grocery store. I make a plan and I think that future version of myself is going to be the type of person who wants to go out to dinner or whatever, but I never become that person. I keep waking up. You know my trick is I do decide if myself right now doesn’t want to do it, I’m not saying yes because I keep being the same person.
Amanda Doyle:
I have two that I liked on their list. One was text amnesty granted after 72 hours. You know how if someone wrote to you on a text message and you go back and you have to text them about something else, but there’s these old messages, so there’s this awkward thing where you’re like, “Well, now do I respond to the one from two weeks ago when I really have a whole nother thing I want to be talking about?”
Glennon Doyle:
So good.
Amanda Doyle:
I think we just all agree that after 72 hours those are bump, starting new topics. I really like that one.
Abby Wambach:
Those are erased. Those are erasable.
Amanda Doyle:
They’re erased.
Glennon Doyle:
Very good.
Abby Wambach:
Cool, cool, cool, cool.
Amanda Doyle:
Speaking of texting, I also really like the one of don’t ever text message someone, “K.” Just the letter K, because it basically means fuck you.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, god. K, period?
Abby Wambach:
That’s my go-to.
Glennon Doyle:
That would scare the shit … No, you don’t do that to me.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s so scary. I’ve never gotten a K period text from you.
Abby Wambach:
I give those all the time.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, well, you should stop. There’s probably a lot of people that think you’ve just been-
Abby Wambach:
Why does that mean fuck you?
Amanda Doyle:
Because it’s like the capital K, the period, it’s basically being like, “No worries”, but in a way more aggressive ways.
Abby Wambach:
Okay. What about if it’s without the period?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, that’s fine.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s good.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, okay. That’s what I do.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s the period.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t do the period.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s the period.
Glennon Doyle:
I do love this one, though. No statute of limitations on a condolence note.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, that’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
That one is so good, because sometimes you can feel like if you didn’t write right away that it’s too late and it’s never too late if someone’s grieving because someone is always going to be thinking about that person. If you have a friend who lost someone a year ago or six months ago, just do it, reach out. They might need it the most right in this moment, even more than right after it happened.
Glennon Doyle:
Accents are not cute. Don’t say they are.
Abby Wambach:
Dammit.
Glennon Doyle:
Don’t ever say that someone’s accent is cute. It is not cute. We don’t even have to explain that one.
Abby Wambach:
This makes me cringe because I feel like I’ve done this in all of my travels.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, but that’s what this is for. I’ve done it too. “Oh my God, I love your accent. Oh, everything you say-“
Abby Wambach:
All the people from England, “Can you just talk?” and they’re like, “What?”
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, how about this one, y’all? Don’t call groups of people ladies.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, I find that very annoying.
Glennon Doyle:
So do I. Ladies. Especially if a man is calling a group of people ladies, it feels like we’re suddenly from the 1950s and I just don’t know what about it is. It’s like-
Abby Wambach:
Then what do you call them? Because I’ve been in lots of groups of women. Women?
Amanda Doyle:
You say y’all.
Amanda Doyle:
You say, “Excuse me, your table is ready.”
Abby Wambach:
I know, but-
Amanda Doyle:
You don’t have any fucking ladies. What is the point? “Hello, please come over here.”
Abby Wambach:
But think about a team environment and trying to get everybody’s attention. What do they say? “Attention-“
Amanda Doyle:
All right, y’all.
Abby Wambach:
All right y’all?
Amanda Doyle:
“Hey, group up. Hey, take a knee. Hey, come on over.” Why ladies?
Glennon Doyle:
Whatever sporty people say, you just say that in a general … ladies feels patronizing.
Abby Wambach:
Why?
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t know. For the same reason Cracker Barrel feels racist. It’s just something-
Amanda Doyle:
For the same reason it’s an insult to say to a group of boys running on the court, “Hey ladies, looking good out there.” It’s used as an insult.
Abby Wambach:
I hear that, but what if it’s an actual group of women? Is that still insulting?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
In what context would you have to say ladies to an actual group of women?
Abby Wambach:
Okay, it’s happened throughout my whole career. “Ladies, circle up. Come on.”
Amanda Doyle:
Okay, just question. Would any coach in any locker room say, “okay, gentlemen, circle up?”
Abby Wambach:
No, they’d say guys. “Guys, circle up.”
Glennon Doyle:
Guys doesn’t have a connotation that is related to etiquette. Ladies has a connotation that is related to etiquette. Be a lady. Your mother sent you to etiquette school so you could learn how to be a lady. Be a lady, be a lady. Ladies, it’s a putting in your place, is how it sounds to me in a way that guys is not at all a putting in your place. We just need another word or nothing because we’re not gendering people in groups anymore. We just need to use-
Abby Wambach:
I like the bring it in.
Glennon Doyle:
Bring it in, y’all.
Abby Wambach:
Bring it in.
Glennon Doyle:
Y’all. Bring back y’all.
Amanda Doyle:
I have one that I hard disagree with them on their list.
Glennon Doyle:
Ooh. Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
They said that it’s fine when the plane lands to stand up-
Abby Wambach:
No.
Amanda Doyle:
Do your thing no matter where you are.
Abby Wambach:
No.
Amanda Doyle:
If we are going to have a society, people, we all get off the plane in the order of our row. That’s what we do.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right. That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Agree.
Amanda Doyle:
Done.
Abby Wambach:
There is a sign.
Amanda Doyle:
What the hell are you doing, C30 back there?
Abby Wambach:
No.
Amanda Doyle:
Where do you think you’re going?
Abby Wambach:
No, and I police the situation like nobody else. Somebody tries to come up and I just stand there. They literally try to get by me, I’m like, “You’re not getting by. You’re back there.”
Glennon Doyle:
She does do that. Unless they have small children.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. Or unless they have a connection.
Glennon Doyle:
A connection.
Abby Wambach:
Connections, of course.
Glennon Doyle:
Unless they have a connection or small kids or some situation that it is clear that this person needs to get off before the rest of us.
Abby Wambach:
I also would not let a small child by me.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Abby Wambach:
I’m sorry. Look, the kid can stand there too.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, let’s talk about this. I love this one and it’s loaded. Don’t say that someone looks like someone else.
Abby Wambach:
Damn it.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, yeah.
Abby Wambach:
I do this a lot.
Glennon Doyle:
I want to talk about this one. Our children are Japanese. People are always saying, “You look like …” and then referencing the only other Japanese person that they’ve ever heard of. They don’t even know. They’re not trying to be a certain way, but it is very obvious to us what’s happening. There’s racism in that.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I mean, it brings into to the picture like, “Oh, what are they seeing in me that they see in the other person?” It’s objectifying.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. So just don’t say it. Don’t say you look like this other person.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
Also, let’s not comment on people’s bodies. At all.
Abby Wambach:
God. Okay, this is a really hard one for me because in the sports world, your appearance, your muscles and the way that you present, it was like you showing yourself. So when we would all come back together in camp, people were like, “Oh my gosh, you look so fit.” It’s something that I was trained to do for a long time because we needed to give each other the affirmation in that way. But now in the real world, I’m not allowed to do that, but my brain is not allowing me to not do it.
Glennon Doyle:
I mean, our kids call it mind your own body. Compliments to other people’s bodies are just as dangerous as negative things. You just don’t mention other people’s bodies in any way.
Amanda Doyle:
I loved this. Katie Boozer on our Instagram of the criticism episode, she has a bunch of third graders, and she wrote this, “Reminded me of something that happened at school a few weeks ago. I teach third grade, a substitute walked past me as I was walking my students to recess and said, “You look so thin. Is that hard for you?” I was caught so off guard and I said, “Feeling really healthy,” and then one of my sweet boys chimed in and said, “We don’t comment on people’s bodies because it’s the least interesting thing about them”, which is something she tells her kids all the time. I just love that. It’s like, yes, some bodies, you might think something about them, but if you just assume it’s the least interesting thing about them, just push right on through and find something else.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. That’s right.
Abby Wambach:
What are some good other options? Because I like to have plan B
Glennon Doyle:
“It’s so good to see you.”
Amanda Doyle:
Anything about them.
Glennon Doyle:
“It’s so good to see your face.”
Amanda Doyle:
“Hey, how is your week going?”
Abby Wambach:
“Wow, your energy is so beautiful today.” That’s a good one.
Amanda Doyle:
I see that flirt.
Abby Wambach:
That’s a good one.
Amanda Doyle:
I see that flirt.
Glennon Doyle:
I liked this one. Gossip like the person is 12 feet away. I liked that because it doesn’t imply that we’re never going to gossip, but the person being 12 feet away, I feel like if the person were 12 feet away, I would say the thing that needed to be said so we were all like … I don’t know. It honors the idea that gossip can be how we give information about people to protect each other, but it also protects the other person’s humanity because when someone’s 12 feet away, you see them as a human being and you might not say the shit you would say if that person was out of your sight.
Amanda Doyle:
So good.
Glennon Doyle:
I just want to talk about this one for a second. If someone is repeating a story, you have two minutes to tell them. Or two seconds, I can’t remember what it was.
Abby Wambach:
Two seconds.
Glennon Doyle:
The idea that if it’s a story repeater, you have a second to be like, “Oh yeah, that’s a great one. I’ve heard that one from you,” or, “Yeah, I remember that one.” So the person is signaled, but it’s not all the way half through, and we have talked about that.
Amanda Doyle:
Most of the time they don’t care.
Abby Wambach:
I want to retell the story. This is called lore. This is folklore, and I want these stories to be embedded-
Glennon Doyle:
And they are. They are.
Abby Wambach:
I want our children, when they get older, to be like, “Oh, here she goes again. Oh, this is a story.”
Amanda Doyle:
You’re on track, Abby.
Glennon Doyle:
They don’t have to get older. They don’t have to get older. They can just be the age they’re now.
Abby Wambach:
They will tell these stories to their children and then I will never die.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, that’s interesting. Okay, so it’s about immortality. Before we move on, I just want to say Abby and I had a talk about, “What do you want me to do if you’ve already told a story a lot of times, do you want me to tell you?” She said, “No,” and I said, “Okay, but what if we’ve already heard it, or everybody’s already …” and she goes, “It’s not about whether you’ve heard it. It’s about whether I want to tell it.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yep. Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
I have not stopped thinking about since that moment. It’s about wanting to tell it again.
Abby Wambach:
But do you also want to know why that is? Because in our family with children, I have to censor so much of what I want to say, and I’ve got some stories that I know are true-
Amanda Doyle:
Good for the rotation.
Abby Wambach:
That are tried and they’re true and they’re safe. So this is why I keep telling the same fucking stories.
Glennon Doyle:
In that moment, what would be good manners for me as your wife who loves you, would not be, “She’s told this story before.” It would be like, “This is important for her to tell this story so I am open to hearing the story again.” Okay, sissy, what are some of yours?
Amanda Doyle:
I think if you have just met someone and you are not sure you are saying their name correctly, don’t just cross your fingers and power through and say it really quickly. Take a moment and say, “I’d really like to make sure I’m pronouncing your name correctly. Is it X? Is that correct?” Because if not, then the onus is just on that person who probably constantly gets their name mispronounced to either take the initiative to say it or just to always have their name misstated.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
This is something I am trying really hard to do and it is hard, but I think it would be great if we only said sorry when we were sorry. I feel as if, “Oh, sorry I didn’t get that email back to you yesterday. Oh, sorry, I’ve just been really busy so I’m responding to this …” 90% of the time I say I’m sorry, I’m absolutely not sorry. I don’t have a reason to be sorry. This is just life and the way it works and I feel like it undervalues then those moments that you’re actually sorry, when you’re like, “I’m really sorry I did that to you.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
It just devalues it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
So I am trying, even though it’s uncomfortable, I get back to someone a day late, I’m actually not sorry about that. I prioritized other things. Just saying, “Thanks for your patience. Here it is.”
Glennon Doyle:
I love it.
Glennon Doyle:
Here’s one that we used to work on in third grade a lot in my classroom. When someone says I’m sorry, you don’t have to say it’s okay or no problem, or “No, no, no, don’t be sorry.” When someone says I’m sorry, you get to accept that apology. So when someone says I’m sorry, you don’t have to say it’s okay, because it wasn’t okay. When someone says I’m sorry, you can say thank you so much. It feels more complete than someone tried to give you a gift with an apology and then you shoved it away. Because it’s not okay or the other person wouldn’t have been apologizing.
Glennon Doyle:
I have some technology ones. Do not go into a phone or text at dinner, since this one’s from the article. Yes, please. Check your phone, make sure your kids are whatever, blah, blah, blah, but do not just start scrolling at dinner when you’re sitting with a person. It’s just the signal is, “This thing is more important,” or “You’re boring as hell, so I need to go through Instagram right now.”
Glennon Doyle:
If you are FaceTiming or speakering someone and someone else is in the room or car, please say it right away.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, god yes.
Abby Wambach:
Notify for sure.
Glennon Doyle:
Right? If you call me, I’m going to be like, “Mom’s in the car. Hi. Hi, sissy. It’s me and mom.”
Abby Wambach:
Yep. You have to assume whoever you’re talking to is about to talk shit about that other person in the room.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
Because you never fucking know. Right?
Amanda Doyle:
That’s right. And we don’t talk shit about you mom.
Glennon Doyle:
No, never, but in case we were going to, I would signal it. Okay?
Amanda Doyle:
But if we do, we do it as if you’re 12 feet away.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. Exactly. Okay. Ask before posting pictures of your friends. I really think that you should ask because people have complicated lives. You don’t know if that person did not tell her family she was going to be at that thing or you don’t know … just people have complicated lives. Make sure that-
Amanda Doyle:
Including their kids.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my gosh. Before posting anybody’s kid, before posting any-
Abby Wambach:
Another person.
Glennon Doyle:
Don’t post a stranger on the internet. We don’t know people’s lives. Just careful of posting. Also, this is a hilarious one that I do not describe TikToks. What I want you to know about my family is that 50% of the communication between my children and my wife, between everyone is describing TikToks to each other.
Abby Wambach:
Didn’t they say that it was … they likened it to people describing their dreams. It’s the same as somebody trying to explain a dream to you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. It’s that boring. For the love of all that is holy, stop having speakerphone conversations or FaceTime conversations or conference calls in public.
Abby Wambach:
I disagree with this one.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s one of the reasons I don’t go out in public because I cannot stand this wild, wild west we have created where everyone thinks that their conversation with their workers or their colleagues or their whatever is important enough to take up the audio space in a public space. I think it is so unbelievably rude.
Abby Wambach:
It’s rude, but I also think that your need for the private quietness is also the same energy that the people who are just choosing to do their own thing. It’s just the opposite.
Amanda Doyle:
Ooh, it’s fascinating. You’re saying, oh, these people are so self-centered, they need it to be like this. But not you’re saying, Glennon, you’re so self-centered, you think you have the right to go out in public and have it be like this.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I hear that, but I also think that for the whole history of time, public has been a place where we try to imagine that there are other people in the space. There’s audio privilege, there’s audio entitlement.
Amanda Doyle:
We’re talking about privilege here, girl. That’s what we’re talking about.
Abby Wambach:
You’ve never seen a person in an airport more upset about somebody having a phone conversation with somebody else and Glennon is … she’s looking at me, she’s looking at them, she’s looking at me.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m a lot more sensitive to sound. I’m listening to myself and I want everyone to know that I am hearing what you’re hearing. I am hearing the privilege and control-
Amanda Doyle:
Picking up what you’re putting down.
Glennon Doyle:
… and needing public spaces to be quiet.
Abby Wambach:
You just want them to be less loud.
Glennon Doyle:
I just want everybody to be less loud.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t think that you need them to be quiet. I think that you want them to be at the proper volume decibel for yourself.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m stunned by the loudness of the world.
Amanda Doyle:
I have a few more.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, great.
Amanda Doyle:
I don’t know if we’re still doing the thing where people are selling things and they want us to go up to their house and buy the things. I want to support my friends and their business endeavors and what they’re doing, so I think a good rule, if you are selling things but you’re having a party and inviting people over to buy the things, I think that a rule should be that in that invitation, you give an option of people who won’t be able to attend, but they can help you get your business off the ground by buying something online or by just making a gift to you to support your business. Because I don’t ever, ever in a thousand years want to go to one of those parties where I buy things, but I do want to support my friends. So I think that’s a good rule.
Glennon Doyle:
Cool, cool.
Amanda Doyle:
Good rule is to just believe me when I say that no one wants to talk to you about your kids’ IQ or what grade level they’re reading at or how the curriculum isn’t challenging enough for them.
Glennon Doyle:
Nope.
Amanda Doyle:
Literally no one wants to talk to you about that, unless they are that child’s parent-
Abby Wambach:
Grandparents.
Amanda Doyle:
Or they share significant amount of DNA with you.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Or their teacher.
Amanda Doyle:
Or their teacher. People are having a hard time out there. Just be grateful and happy for yourself and speak to it only to your sister or partner and no one else. I also think this one has been working for me. I’m a very competitive person and my kid plays really competitive games and I have a hard time with my emotional regulation. I have found that it is very helpful for me to cheer for the kids I know that are on the other team, but the act of cheering for them regulates me and I’m so excited when anyone does something good.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. That’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a good tip.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t know. Cheer for your kid’s team.
Glennon Doyle:
Cheer for children as if they are 12 feet away, because they are, and they’re children.
Amanda Doyle:
Cheer for children as if they’re under 12 years old and 12 feet away.
Abby Wambach:
As long as you’re cheering for and not against.
Glennon Doyle:
Shout out to how hard that is, though.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
It is a real testament that we as grown adults can go stand with a bunch of eight-year-olds and because they have signed up for a different team, hate them and their families immediately.
Abby Wambach:
Pretty weird.
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly. It’s really-
Abby Wambach:
It is so weird.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay, can I give my one that’s my biggest pet peeve?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
I have a suggestion to make-
Abby Wambach:
Specifically to me?
Amanda Doyle:
And that is that you should never suggest that you knew something or suspected something was a problem after it becomes a problem if you didn’t share that you thought it would be a problem before it became a problem.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Here’s how that looks. “Oh, this bad thing happened.” “Yeah, I kind of thought that was like that.” No, fuck you. If you think something’s a problem, you say it as soon as you think it or you forfeit, you go to the grave with the fact that you knew that was going to be a problem.
Glennon Doyle:
Speak previously or forever hold your speaking.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. Nobody thinks you’re smart because you had the foresight to think that might be a problem because you sat on that shit and didn’t share it with the group.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
I love it. Sister goes, “No, fuck you.”
Glennon Doyle:
Also there’s a part of that that is about centering yourself.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Another example of that is, “Y’all, she proposed last night. We’re engaged.” There’s always the friend that’s like, “I knew that was going to happen last night. I knew it. I knew it. I saw these things and I knew it and I knew it,” and suddenly-
Amanda Doyle:
We’re like, “Now we’re talking about you?”
Glennon Doyle:
Suddenly the whole group is turned to talk about how she knew that this thing was going to happen. No, no, no. There’s a moment where you decide, “Do I make this about me or do I keep the emphasis on the right syllable?”, which is the person who just gave the big news.
Glennon Doyle:
You all, I loved this episode.
Abby Wambach:
I did too.
Glennon Doyle:
So pod squad, we need you on this one. Call us at (747) 200-5307 and tell us what are your ideas about the new etiquette? How should we behave in spaces with other human beings? Let us know. Or if you’re less of a caller and more of a writer, email us at [email protected]. We love to hear from you. We know you’re going to have thoughts about our ideas. Please don’t be mad at us. It’s just different.
Amanda Doyle:
I knew this podcast was a bad idea.
Glennon Doyle:
Fuck you. We love you, pod squad. We’ll catch you next time. Bye.
Glennon Doyle:
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you’d be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you’ll never miss an episode and it helps us because you’ll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the Week Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you’re there, if you’d be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.
Glennon Doyle:
We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 Studios.