Five Criticism Survival Strategies
February 10, 2023
Glennon Doyle:
Well, welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. I feel so delighted.
Abby Wambach:
You do?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I just feel delighted. I’ve had more coffee than usual, but also I love this place. I love talking to you too. I love what we talk about and I love who we talk to. We just love our community. Today we’re going to continue a conversation we started with episode 136, Care-frontation, and received a lot of feedback on, about criticism and how to deal with it.
Abby Wambach:
Is that a question mark?
Glennon Doyle:
No, it’s a exclamation mark, point.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, it kind of is a question mark because the whole word, it’s curious the word. Is that word accurately describe what we’re talking about?
Abby Wambach:
That’s really good point.
Amanda Doyle:
Is it feedback? Does it even count as feedback if it’s from strangers? Because presumably you have to direct something to someone for it to be a feedback.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s just a feed to.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a feed out if it’s public.
Amanda Doyle:
Feed out.
Glennon Doyle:
I love that framing.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a force feed.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. I love that framing because I think today what we’re going to do is figure out what actually is criticism that we should consider and what is actually just misogyny being vomited into the air that is not personal to us. What actually is necessary for us to consider to become bigger and better and deeper and more beautiful and truer, and what needs to be filtered out so that we can take in what matters? I actually avoid talking about public criticism. I don’t think I’ve ever talked about it in a big way. Mostly because, number one, I feel like whatever I focus on just gets bigger. And that part of this life has been confusing, scary, murky to me and unhelpful. And so it’s-
Abby Wambach:
You mean Twitter or people writing you letters that have problems with you?
Glennon Doyle:
No, I don’t actually mean that. I think that I have had big luck in terms of the community of people who interact with me directly. Unbelievable actually, the level of respect and care and kindness. People write about our social media feeds, about how unbelievably kind they are.
Abby Wambach:
I’m actually so amazed at it.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s incredible. And it was a painstaking process of building that slowly over time and creating a real culture. But no, I just mean the talking about me out there and what I hear and reading comment sections here on the internet away from communities that I curate. And the other reason why I avoid it is because it feels so specific to be a public person out there, but-
Amanda Doyle:
Not a universally understood thing. Don’t y’all hate it when you pick up a People Magazine and people are talking shit about you. Not exactly hashtag relatable to folks like me, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
And I don’t like that. Whenever I listen to famous people talk about their plight in the world, it just feels boring to me because it doesn’t feel universal. However, in thinking about this more, I think I may be doing our communities a disservice by not talking about it a little bit more. Because what I know is that when the world talks about women, it’s not just about that woman. It’s a way of policing all women, because women read that shit and we think, thank God, that’s not me. Or even if it’s subconscious, they think, well, that’s why I don’t put myself out there, because I don’t want that to happen to me. It’s like the burning of the witch that everybody has to come to the town square to watch. It’s the public witch burning that is not just about that woman. It’s like, so are you watching this? Stay in line. Right?
Amanda Doyle:
Right. It’s a chilling effect on women standing up and having a voice in any way, because we do know that they’re much more likely to be subject to attacks. It’s open season, like a woman steps up and says something about anything that’s important, and then it isn’t what she says, it’s open season. Her looks, her family, her level of crazy, her hair, her whatever is subject to attack.
Glennon Doyle:
And that’s what I want to get into because one thing that I can do to make it helpful is that I have found over the last 15 years that there is a system you can use to make misogynistic criticism, less chilling. There is a way of seeing it clearly that makes what feels very personal at the moment become completely impersonal. It’s not personal. None of this is personal. I’m going to tell you how I do that. The sorting system. I do that. And then the other reason that I think it’s important is because when I talk to my friends who are not in as public positions as me about the kind of criticism I get, they absolutely relate to it. It’s the same form in their offices or PTA meetings. It’s the same. It’s a little bit different exposure, but the same-
Abby Wambach:
Types.
Glennon Doyle:
… types. Exactly. And you know this strategy sister, because we’ve been doing it for so long. But when something goes out into the world or I’m stupid enough to log into an article someone’s written about me, which I don’t do very often anymore. I used to do all the time, but now I’ll do it once every five years, because I don’t know why. There’s an onslaught of feed out. Okay?
Amanda Doyle:
Force feed.
Glennon Doyle:
Force feed. Or just in the ether. And at first, the things that are said feel so horrifically horrible because they are about me. But what I figured out is if you are a woman and you put anything out into the world, let’s imagine, okay, you know I love a metaphor, let’s do this. You’re a woman who leaves your home to put something out into the world, whether it’s like a work in an office or a piece of art or an opinion or whatever it is. You’ve gone and put that piece of work into the mailbox, put the flag up, go back to your home. When you come back to that mailbox, you’re going to have some feed out from the world, just pages and letters and envelopes of feedback, feed out whatever it is. You’re not going to take that feedback into your house yet. It doesn’t all belong in your house. First you’re going to sort the feedback and here’s what you’re going to find.
Glennon Doyle:
I think there’s probably four categories, maybe five now for me, five categories of feed out or feedback, for me. The first will be about my looks, something about how I look. I’m too ugly to do this work. I’m too pretty to do this work. I have too much Botox. I do not have enough Botox. I wear way too much makeup. I don’t have enough makeup. My hair is too gray and I should dye it. If I were a good feminist, I would not dye it. I am too skinny to be talking about bodies. I’m wrinkly. My clothes are ridiculous. It’s something about the way that I appear. By the way, as an aside, when we’re talking about feedback, let’s just not ever talk about other people’s bodies at all. We have a rule in our family that’s like, mind your own body. Don’t talk about other people’s bodies.
Abby Wambach:
That’s been hard for me because I come from a sports world and I’m like, oh my gosh, you look great. It’s part of the whole culture. It’s so hard. I know. I’m learning.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s hurtful and scary to hear about your looks from strangers. It is also completely and totally irrelevant and ridiculous. It’s junk mail. If you have that stack of mail in your hand, feed out from the world, anything that has to do with your looks goes in the trash or recycling if you’re re responsible. Okay, so anything about your appearance, junk mail, you’re not taking it inside. The second category because the culture knows that women are supposed to be valued for how we look, how we present and our relationships, it will be about my relationships.
Amanda Doyle:
Can I pause one second on the first category?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
About looks. It’s super hard to view that as not personal because you think if I didn’t look like this, I wouldn’t get this feedback. But if you could instead think about it as an indicia of that is where people go when people see a woman that is powerful or creative or is shaking the status quo in any way, whether it’s an idea at a meeting or whatever, and they go through a checklist.
Glennon Doyle:
This is the checklist.
Amanda Doyle:
And the last thing that they can get to is her looks. If you look at Justice Sotomayor, when she was at the confirmation hearings, the media reports that were about her looks. If you look at when Hillary Clinton ran for office, it is the criticism equivalent of slapstick comedy.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
If you can’t get something at a higher level, you go there. And so although it feels deeply personal, it from a structural gender policing standpoint, it is universally accepted that that is the last nuclear option to get at a woman who is trying to change things.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s also the low hanging fruit. It’s from the least creative people. It’s from the people who can’t think any further than that.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
Because if you could think of something else you would, it’s not something that is worth your time to consider. And the other thing is you can’t win, if you’re trying to respond to criticism in a way that’s making you better, it’s almost like, how’s this going to make me better? You’re not going to win that one.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s irrelevant.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s totally irrelevant. But they also know that they can get to women because women are supposed to value who we are in relation to other people with relationships. So the second category of criticism that is in the ether for me is I’m a terrible wife. How could Abby ever be with me? I’m so way too much. Why did she marry me? I’m a terrible mom. Can you imagine talking about these things with your kids and what a terrible mom she is. I’d rather die than be her kid.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God.
Glennon Doyle:
Craig, thank God he left. I’m giving you specific examples for me, but the general one would be, well, I wouldn’t want to be her person. I wouldn’t want to be her mom, this relationship.
Abby Wambach:
Check.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. This is the next category of junk mail, because I feel like it’s very basic, but important to remember that the only people we should be taking feedback about our relationships are the people with whom we are in relationship.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Very basic, but like junk mail, nothing about our relationships comes in the house.
Amanda Doyle:
So the corporate version of this would be the very engaged, prolific corporate attorney who is killing it at their job. And people present under the guise of concern. I know she’s doing such a great job, but she has a nanny at home all the time. She hardly ever sees. When does she see her kids?
Glennon Doyle:
Feigned as concerned. Feigned as concerned.
Amanda Doyle:
I just worried. I’m just worried.
Glennon Doyle:
No, you’re not worried, Kathy. You’re not worried. Okay. Third category. This one’s tricky, but it’s personality. It’s a big category, but you’ll know when you see it. For me, it’s like she’s so controlling. She’s crazy. She’s too much. There’s lots of like, she’s too much, she’s too much, she’s too much, she’s too much.
Amanda Doyle:
She’s a lot.
Glennon Doyle:
She’s a lot. These things could be true, could be not. Most of those things I discuss anyway about my own damn self. But here’s what is important to remember. When you look at these categories, looks, relationship, personality, none of these categories have to do with my work. What I’ve done is I’ve gone to put my work in the mailbox, to send it out. And what the whole world has done because I’m a woman, is ignore what I put in the mailbox and look at me. And I’ve said this before in the pod, I’m going to say it again. It’s very important to me, for every woman who’s putting work out in the world to hear this, when a man puts work out into the world, the world looks at the work and says, is this work worthy?
Glennon Doyle:
And when a woman puts work out into the world, the world looks at the woman and says, is she even worthy of putting this work out? They don’t even look at the work. Why is she talking? Not what has she said, but why are we letting her talk?
Amanda Doyle:
Who is she to think that we, to have the audacity to believe that we should listen to her?
Abby Wambach:
Why does she feel so entitled to be able to say what she is saying?
Glennon Doyle:
Right, exactly.
Abby Wambach:
It’s not about what she’s saying, it’s the entitlement.
Glennon Doyle:
One of the things I think about all the time is when we look at the feedback for our work, whether we’re in an office, whether we’re an artist, whoever we are, the first question we have to ask ourselves, and we’re considering whether we’re going to take this criticism in and think about it is, is it even about my work? Is it about my work? And the second one is, is it gendered? Because when I talk to my male counterparts in this, they are stunned by these categories, stunned by them. They don’t get this kind of feedback. They don’t have to sort their mail 89% down. Their feedback is about their work. It’s like another added job that women have to do along with all the other ones, is to sort the mail.
Glennon Doyle:
Here’s what I want to talk about with this fourth category, because the fourth category would be stuff that’s actually about our work.
Abby Wambach:
Well, because there is stuff that we do need to look at about ourselves, about our work, to make us better. For sure.
Glennon Doyle:
Absolutely. I think we have to be smart enough to sort the first 80% of it out and we have to be strong and wise enough to take that 20% and bring it in and let it change us and make us better. However, here’s the trick with that 20%, is that even when it’s about your work, it could still be gendered. For example, early on I was working with a company and I asked a question about my work being disseminated to the world, a very specific business question. And I got a call back from the president of that company who said to me, so I wanted to get back to you. I know that you’re a control freak, so I need to answer your question.
Glennon Doyle:
And I felt so like, wait, because I asked a question about my own business, now I’m a control freak. If I were a man, there is no way in hell this response would have been framed that way. You experienced this sister, right? Gendered feedback. What’s the feedback that you get in terms of your work that you feel like is gendered?
Amanda Doyle:
Well, I think this was a shock to me because I think it’s really interesting how much it happens between and among women too.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. That was a woman, by the way. That was a woman who called me.
Amanda Doyle:
In my experience, it has come back to me in terms of when I ask straightforward questions, accountability questions, what I view as non-confrontational questions or just pushing, which is literally my job, is to advance things by pushing them through. I will get feedback from a colleague of the person that I’m trying to get the answers from, that you don’t really work great together. You two you just don’t click. It’s the idea that I am some sort of way that is untenable because I’m asking those things and is most often with women.
Glennon Doyle:
Is it because you don’t do the equivalent of a million smiley faces after your text in your communication, you’re not bubbly enough? Because I see a lot of that. People expect women to be a certain way with each other, and when you’re direct and clear, that is viewed as aggressive.
Amanda Doyle:
Right. Well, I think that when men get fired up, they’re viewed as passionate and unrelenting and devoted and driven, and when women get fired up, they are seen as out of control and petulant and-
Glennon Doyle:
Difficult to work with. Difficult.
Amanda Doyle:
Difficult to work with. Right? I think it’s intensity, when a woman is intense, the world is not comfortable with it.
Abby Wambach:
I also think just speak about the business approach to this. It is a calculated move for whomever you’re doing business with sister, the boss that says, I don’t think I’ve just really, I can’t work with her. There’s something about her. They’re saying all this stuff to a woman on purpose and that woman is tasked with the job of taming sister.
Glennon Doyle:
And then that woman becomes more tamed in the process.
Abby Wambach:
Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
… because she’s learning. Oh shit, I can’t be like that.
Abby Wambach:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, and this is why it’s so important to talk to each other. I have a dear friend who works on a team. She’s complete badass. One of the members of her team called their higher up out for something that was, who was a man, who was completely out of line on something. Nobody else knew that the other team member had called the person out. Then dude calls all the other members of the team other than her and says, I’m worried about her mental.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Amanda Doyle:
She just seems a little overwhelmed and a little overworked and I think we might need to pull this back from her. I’m just really worried about her. Everybody else is like, oh my God, I guess she is. She does handle a lot. She must be stressed. Maybe we should pull this back from her. Nobody knows until she calls and says, I just had this crazy issue with this dude. And then they put together that she had had the issue, and then dude called the rest of them to pull back the work under the guise of we’re just really worried. We need to make sure.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s scary the way that it works out.
Glennon Doyle:
It goes back way to that episode with Natalie Portman, where if some dude says she’s crazy, you say back, what bad thing did you do to her? So you ask yourself, is it gendered? There’s another, and I want to actually broach this because we usually don’t and most women don’t because it’s so dicey. But there’s also another category of criticism that comes down to money and ambition. I’ve definitely noticed this one recently. It’s some version of how dare she make money off of her work? And all I care about is money. And I’m only saying this because this is a version of what all women, it comes down to she’s too ambitious. She’s too ambitious. She’s too ambitious.
Glennon Doyle:
There’s just no way to win this one. As a woman, you must ignore this, because I was thinking recently, I saw a brush of comments about I’m too ambitious and I make money and I don’t do anything for the world. I’m just this greedy person. And I’m reading these comments like, I want everybody to know that I have this sorting system. It still hurts me. I panic every time. I read this stuff and I’m like, my immediate thought is I have to stop. I have to stop this. I have to stop this. I’m out of control. How could I be letting this happen? The feeling of I was safe and for some reason I’m like an animal that put myself in the middle of a Savannah with nowhere to hide and I have no protection and I have done this to myself.
Glennon Doyle:
And why the hell would I not get picked off by a predator? That’s how it feels. And by the way, I think that’s how it’s meant to feel. I think it taps into something of us that is-
Abby Wambach:
Primal.
Glennon Doyle:
… that is primal. It is not logical. It is not something that a sorting system can necessarily fix because it strikes to our fear of being picked off, of being-
Abby Wambach:
That’s really interesting.
Glennon Doyle:
… separated.
Amanda Doyle:
Safety.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s safety, it’s attachment. It’s I have done something to threaten my safety and connection to human beings and I’m going to be annihilated.
Amanda Doyle:
And not only that, but I deserve this. I have put myself in a position to lose my safety. It’s like Icarus too close to the sun. It’s I should have known that if I had the audacity to use my voice, if I had the audacity to try to make change, if I had the audacity to think that I deserve to be leading that thing, then I deserve whatever consequences I’ve brought on myself.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
Instead of I have the right to be both safe and heard, to be both loud and safe. We immediately say, my bad, retreat. Retreat.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. And that’s how it feels to me in the moment. Like, oh my God, retreat, retreat. I’ve made my family unsafe. I’ve made me unsafe. Right? It’s not like they didn’t warn me. That’s what my whole life was. Every cultural message, every witch burning, everyone was telling me not to do this. I did it. I deserve it. But then I tell myself, if that’s the message, if that’s what they want me to do, is stop, just stop, go away. Then maybe it’s a huge act of resistance and beauty and freedom just to not stop. What if I just don’t go away? What I want to say about the whole ambition thing, and you’re a narcissist. Everybody’s a narcissist these days. If you’re a woman and you open up your mouth about your life, you’re a narcissist. So get ready for that one.
Glennon Doyle:
But when I read that thing about how I’m just ambition, I panicked about like I don’t do anything for the world for five minutes. And then I was like, wait, I did found, and I’m the president of Together Rising. So I do every single day raise money for people all over the world. That’s basically what we do with our time.
Abby Wambach:
What’s that number now?
Glennon Doyle:
Together Rising has raised over $45 million for people in need in our country and all around the globe. Now, here’s why I tell you that, not to prove anything for myself. It’s to prove to you that you can’t win that one. As a woman, I am like, don’t worry world, I’m going to earn my ability to speak by doing all of this good stuff for the world. Because if you’re a woman, you cannot do well unless you’re doing good or they will crucify you. So you have to be doing good, doing good. No, no, no. Don’t worry. I’m doing good. I’m doing good. I’m here to tell you, it doesn’t matter how much good you do, they will still come after you. So don’t worry about that. A woman should be able to be out in the world and using her voice and doing well and being ambitious without doing all of that do gooding.
Amanda Doyle:
Just imagine you got your VP of Company Inc. Or your president of or CEO of LLC Z, could you ever imagine being like, that guy, I went to college with him, all he wants to do is work hard and succeed and make money. Can you believe that bastard? What an actual asshole. No one would ever say that. it would be said in a, that guy, he has been driven since the day I knew him. He’s been hustling. He’s CEO of that company. He does so well.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
We put the bitch in am-bitches. That’s what we do.
Glennon Doyle:
We’ve got 100% of our feet out shit. Okay? We are sitting at the bottom of the driveway. We are laden, we are covered with feedback because we are a woman, but we have gotten rid of everything that’s about our appearance or other women’s appearance. We’ve gotten rid of everything that’s about our relationships because these are from people with whom we are not in relationship. We have gotten rid of everything that’s about our personality.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Bye-bye.
Glennon Doyle:
Because they don’t have to hang out with us actually.
Abby Wambach:
Bye-bye.
Glennon Doyle:
We’re not friends with them. They’re not friends with us. This is not about our personality, this is about our work. So all of that is God. We have the little 20%, but we’ve also weeded out what’s gendered in that. So if it’s talking about us being ambitious, if it’s talking about us being control freaks, whatever, we’ve weeded out. We’ve got this little 5% left.
Abby Wambach:
Little pile.
Glennon Doyle:
5% left.
Abby Wambach:
It’s just little pile.
Glennon Doyle:
Now, friends, do we think we’re taking those five letters into our house? Because we are not. We not done sorting. Okay. This is one category that I have developed for myself just in the last couple years, and I think it’s been the most important. Well, the question is, we’ve got these five letters. Are all of these kind? Are they respectful?
Abby Wambach:
They have to be kind?
Glennon Doyle:
Are they respectful?
Abby Wambach:
Kind?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Okay, everybody. This has been life changing for me. I used to listen, if it’s about my work, I’ll take it, no matter how it’s said, no matter how it makes me feel inside, no matter if it’s clear this person hates me. If it’s about my work, I have to take it. I used to listen to everything people said to me about my work, however they said it. No longer. Okay? I am a communicator. That is my work. And if you don’t communicate without snark or malice to someone you don’t even know, I’m not considering your criticism. I do not have to take in things people say to me that are not kind or respectful. And the reason why is because that kind of criticism can’t be trusted, because it’s about the person who’s doing the criticism. It’s not about the person who’s receiving it. Because there’s some malice or snark or hate in it that can’t be trusted. Do you two know what I’m saying about that?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. It reminds me when we get in arguments and I say it’s not what you say, it’s almost how you say it in a way.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It’s like you get to have a boundary as an adult. You get to insist upon decency. If you hate me and I can tell that you hate me from the way you’re saying something to me, I don’t have to let that in. Don’t think it’s about our highest and best.
Amanda Doyle:
And that I think is universally applicable to folks who are operating on the internet. It reminds me of what you said about how that becomes a tug of war where if you put something out in the world and then somebody else pulls back on it and says in a way with malice of this is horseshit, and this is why. If you choose to pick up the tug of war and tug back and forth with them, that is the way you’re occupying your time and your energy, is doing that. Whereas if you let go of the rope, you can now move on and create something else. So that applies to everyday people. From an internet perspective, it doesn’t make sense to waste your time engaging with those people.
Amanda Doyle:
But I’m thinking in the context of a corporate environment, the rules of corporate engagement don’t always dictate, especially if you’re in certain corporate climates, that people behave with kindness and empathy. And you can also get a little bit into the gendered space, because you must deliver that in a kind way can be at some point on a spectrum with the, you didn’t use enough exclamation points and smiley faces in a corporate setting.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so maybe kind isn’t the right word. Isn’t it necessary to deliver criticism with some level of respect? Because I want to try to get at what I’m trying to get at here, to get deeper. I do think this applies to friendships, to corporate America, to everything, because there is a way of communicating criticism to women that actually is about the person’s internal misogyny. That’s what I mean you can’t consider it, because it’s about that person. I think I told you the story recently. One of our kids was at the sleepover and all the girls at the sleepover were talking about how much they hate Olivia Rodrigo, this and this and this and this, and they can’t stand Olivia Rodrigo.
Glennon Doyle:
And they get around to our kid and our kid’s like, you know what? I used to feel that way about Olivia Rodrigo until I figured out that I just was really jealous of her because it feels like she just became a star so fast and she is so famous and pretty and talented, and it just made me feel bad. And so I figured out that I just was jealous, made me feel icky, and that icky made it easier to say I hate her. I feel like there’s a way of offering criticism and there’s this undertone or wicked thing in it that sets off alarm bells in me that is like, this actually is not about my work. This is not about furthering our work. This is about this thing that this person has, that they have a problem with me. And don’t you think that happens all the time in corporate America?
Amanda Doyle:
I think it does. And I think the thing underlying that, the question would be, is this a person or feedback that you could ever make right without abandoning yourself?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Because there’s certain people that deliver that as retribution for violating their rules, how they see the world. The way they believe you should behave. That any change that you make besides disappearing, is never going to satisfy them.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
So by definition, it doesn’t make any sense for you to entertain that. Because the only way that you are going to appease that person is by saying nothing, doing nothing and being nothing.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
So I think that’s a category. Now that said, I think that a lot of women are victims of this kind of, you didn’t say it nicely enough and therefore I’m going to discount what you’re saying in the corporate world. And I feel like that is something that I’ve experienced, like you didn’t couch it in suite. If not, no. JK. Just joking.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
I just think that maybe we should, as opposed to saying, here’s what we need to do. Here’s what I need you to do. This is the information I need by the end of the day. That that can be seen as she’s demanding, she is unreasonable. She’s not kind.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s direct and respectful to me.
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
If somebody says to me, this is the thing, this is the thing, this is the thing, the end. I don’t mean sweet. I mean that. I mean direct. What I’m saying is when there’s snark in it, when there’s an undertone of something else, and I do think you’re right that maybe I’m focusing, maybe it’s more of an internet thing.
Abby Wambach:
Yes it is.
Glennon Doyle:
But to me, clear, as Brene says, clear is kind. Give me clear. We don’t want to get into the thing where we’re like, well, I don’t like how you said that to me. That was mean.
Amanda Doyle:
That was mean. Because you can very much get into the content policing where you’re like, you are not being nice, you are not being sweet to each other. No, she’s just telling you the truth and it feels like shit to you because that truth hurts you.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. But there’s a way to deliver the truth that is clear, that is without the hate tentacles underneath it. What I have to do as a sensitive human being who also has to be brave enough to be out there and bring in the 5% of criticism is-
Abby Wambach:
Which I still think is a lot. From the internet. I think the only people that you should even entertain taking criticism from are people that you know and respect, period, end of story. The internet, it may or may not even be a human being.
Glennon Doyle:
I know.
Abby Wambach:
I just have a big problem, and I know you’ve built an amazing community, but I was born into the 2011, 10 years. Twitter was fairly new. And every single soccer game I would play in, I would have the same amount of love messages that I had hate messages, that I didn’t pass it when I shot it. Always you have to consider who the source is, who is out there feeding you with some of this feedback or feed out or criticism.
Glennon Doyle:
And there’s a disconnect between the way we understand the internet too, because you were a famous person, so everybody was tweeting you, you didn’t know who they were. You were famous. But mine’s different because I’ve slowly built this community of people who actually know and care about each other. So it’s different. I actually actually do care.
Abby Wambach:
I know. You get upset. You care. And I look at my Twitter feed and I have no care in the world.
Glennon Doyle:
No. I know. And you’re always baffled by how much I care.
Abby Wambach:
And you’re wanting to fall out.
Glennon Doyle:
I know. I know.
Amanda Doyle:
If we’re trying to draw this parallel to the extent that it’s possible between your workplace, Glennon, which is among this community and predominantly on the internet, versus where a lot of people experience this in the workplace, I think it’s some people view all conflict as problematic and mean. And that is not my experience, nor is it like what the business data says about conflict. There’s two sets of conflicts and there’s a difference between constructive conflict and destructive conflict. The way destructive conflict is presented, it actually can bring down the morale of the entire department. It reduces the success of the business. And that is similar to you getting destructive criticism online that you actually should not take into account, but you do, and then you want to run away and retreat.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s not just that. It’s also that these people who don’t know us, don’t know whatever, come into the comments, say something horrible to me. And then I’m thinking, here’s the witch burning that all my people who we’re trying to build this community of being bold and brave and being who we are, are seeing that, and it’s doing the opposite of what I want to do with this community, which they’re trying to scare them. They’re trying to shut women up. Right? That is the bless and block situation. I don’t anymore struggle with cruelty. Should I try to win them over? No. If someone’s cruel to me in my comments, I just bless and block. Bye-bye. And I don’t think about you again.
Amanda Doyle:
And then there’s also this idea of not getting so hottie that you don’t believe that people that can provide you feedback have valuable either lived experience or insights that are in our blind spots. Businesses and communities are made stronger by constructive conflict. And that’s like when you have all these different ideas and worldviews and when you’re able to express them and receive them without being defensive, that’s what makes you more aligned with your goals and your missions. And I feel like we have that a lot. I do think that oftentimes when we have said something or done something, we are able to say, I am reading what you’re saying and that is a good point that I had not considered, and I appreciate that and I am metabolizing that and we’re going to come back and repair that.
Glennon Doyle:
The reason we can do that is because we know how to filter out the 98%. And so when that 2% comes, the biggest growth periods of my entire life career-wise, which have also been the most painful are when somebody has come to me and said, what you just said or what you just did is an absolute reflection of your privilege, and here’s why that thing is hurtful, and get your shit together. Direct, clear. I can tell it’s somebody that doesn’t hate me, that isn’t excited. That’s what it is.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s reveling in the chance.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s excited. You can tell when people have just been waiting-
Abby Wambach:
For you to fall.
Glennon Doyle:
… for you and they’re not sad you messed up, they’re excited you messed up.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s true.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what I’m trying to get at. That’s what I meant by the tentacles of excitement. Like, she’s been waiting to take her down. It’s not that. It’s people who are like, we believe in what you’re doing and the here’s where you went off. That stuff, you know sister, that it breaks my heart at first. It’s like there’s no worse, more painful criticism than when you’ve hurt people who you respect and love and that I will stop everything. Criticism is one thing, but when you tell me that you have hurt or damaged or caused harm, that is something that I will take inside with me. That’s the male I will take inside with me. I will sit with it. I will let it change me. I will be in the fetal position for a couple days, but I will come back. I will apologize for real. I will do whatever work I didn’t do before that even made that mistake possible and allow it to change me completely.
Amanda Doyle:
And that I think circles us back to that first episode that we did on criticism a while back, where it’s the difference between people who can’t wait to bring you down, versus the people who are willing to help you stand up better. And those people are making an investment in you. And even when it feels like shit and even when it’s hard to take, it would be easier for those folks, whether you’re in relationship with them, whether you’re in business with them, or whether they’re in your communities to just not tell you and then talk shit about you. So they’re helping you stand up by sharing it with you, and it’s best not to be defensive to that. And it’s best to just take a deep breath.
Amanda Doyle:
Adam Grant talks about, everybody needs support groups and everybody needs challenge networks. And so your support network is people who are there for you no matter what, to support you. And your challenge network is people that are going to tell you the truth no matter what, even if it’s about something you did wrong, because that is how you get to be more aligned with what you’re trying to do.
Abby Wambach:
I have a question. Are there any public facing women who have gotten out of their life without, who have won, who have ended up on top?
Glennon Doyle:
No. You are either to this or you’re to that, there’s this line that you’re supposed to land the right place on, but no woman has ever landed in the right place for the world to be like that. I remember watching a documentary with Hillary Clinton where they were like, okay, she’s being too abrasive, she’s being too whatever. And her campaign manager saying, can you point us towards the woman who has gotten this right so we can figure out how to, no. No one has ever gotten it right. All you’re going to do is keep moving back and forth, and when you get to the other part, they’re going to push you back the other way. You can’t win. So you have to stop playing. You have to stop trying.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s that Hubbard quote, “The only way to avoid criticism is to do nothing, be nothing, say nothing.” If you really are going to orient your life about not being a target of criticism, especially if you’re a woman, that’s the only way you’re going to do it. So really be intellectually honest about your goals. If you’re telling yourself you can’t handle criticism, you have to tell yourself that you’re willing to accept a life in which you do nothing, say nothing and be nothing.
Glennon Doyle:
And what’s super important is to remember it’s not personal. They can be talking about my pores on my face, which feels personal. It’s not personal. It’s so boring. It’s the same 25 things that they say about every woman. It’s like the misogynist in the world, which by the way, aren’t just outwardly marching misogynist. We all have it in us, every time we think, God, there’s just something about her.
Amanda Doyle:
I think that we are lucky to have the advantage of having seen millions of comments over 10 years because I actually do-
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
The point at which I really believed and understood that it was not personal, is when I could go to a place and know with certainty, 20% of the comments are going to say this, 20% are going to say this. I knew exactly what they’d be and they always are. And that’s how you know that it actually has nothing to do with you. It has to do with this is what we can expect from the world when anyone shows up in any audacious way.
Glennon Doyle:
And especially dares to be human at all, there’s a message of you should be ashamed for even speaking, because you haven’t got it all figured out. Right? God forbid you show up and you’re like, no, no, no, I’m going to keep doing this even though I don’t have it all figured out. Because-
Amanda Doyle:
I’m not even trying to hide how fucked up I am, and I’m still going to be saying all this stuff.
Glennon Doyle:
No, I remember calling you very early on in this meeting. I just read a thing and they said, I’m bulimic. And they said, I’m crazy. And they said, I’m getting divorced. And you were like, but aren’t all of those things completely true? There’s also an element of maybe I am all those things and I’m going to keep showing up anyway. What if I do that?
Amanda Doyle:
Be messy, complicated and afraid and show up anyway.
Glennon Doyle:
And also when you get that kind of criticism and you go into fear and panic, just know that that’s like a primal thing. That’s your body saying, I am not safe. I’m about to be picked off from the herd and I should go quiet in order to not be seen so that I can survive. Right?
Amanda Doyle:
In Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, criticism hits not in the self-esteem area, criticism hits in the way more primal, higher level of important needs, which is safety. That’s where we experience criticism.
Glennon Doyle:
You feel like I’m doing something dangerous. I’m prey and I’ve somehow for some reason painted myself magenta, and I’m no longer camouflaged.
Abby Wambach:
In terms of the context of this specific illustration and analogy, there’s very rare times in my life where I let criticism affect me in a negative way. If you give me something that hurts my feelings, that’ll do it. But I wonder how much of it has to do with the way we see ourselves in terms of being prey or predator in the Savannah that you’re talking about.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so interesting.
Abby Wambach:
I think that it could be an interesting conversation around, because I don’t feel afraid a lot.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so true.
Abby Wambach:
I’m not like a predator, but I don’t feel like I’m prey. I’m not getting picked off. And I think that you might.
Glennon Doyle:
I do feel like prey. I have never once considered, what if I’m the fucking predator?
Amanda Doyle:
You’re a God damn cheetah.
Glennon Doyle:
Cheetah. I wrote a whole book about being a cheetah. Is a cheetah a predator? Yeah. Damn it, to hell.
Amanda Doyle:
I have a question for you, Abby. I’m wondering if you take that a step further. Do you take the criticism as a sign that you are a more effective predator in the Savannah and that’s why they’re giving you so much attention and shit? Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
So you feed off of it?
Abby Wambach:
Yes. Especially because it’s a quick calculation. Who is this person and are they somebody to be respected in my world? Who are you to be giving me advice? I’m always asking that question. Who the fuck are you?
Glennon Doyle:
You say that to me.
Abby Wambach:
I actually do. I’m like, who made you the judge and jury? I ask you that.
Amanda Doyle:
This is fascinating because it depends on what role you think you’re in. And if you G are in this specific role where you see yourself, you belong in this area, then you do need to be nurturing, empathetic, in communication, open, all of these things that make you much more vulnerable and, quote unquote, need to fall in line with what these people demand of you. Whereas Abby is like, oh no, my role here is to take shots and give shots. So if I’m taking shots from you, I’m doing it right.
Glennon Doyle:
I do wonder if some of that is also gendered. Abby has been raised with lots of male privilege.
Abby Wambach:
For sure.
Glennon Doyle:
She walks into a room and she is responded to like a man has arrived. I don’t know how to explain it. I do wonder if some of that’s gendered.
Abby Wambach:
Which gives me a lot more leniency to be like, fuck that. No, I don’t need to listen to that. I respect you over here. I’ll take that criticism. I’m going to listen to that one. That’s what we’re talking about. Is like all of these places that we think we find ourselves in. And I think what we’re saying is to the women or more feminine identifying folks in the world who might feel less like a predator and a little bit more like a prey, these are some ideas that you can have to try to unwrap yourself from the genderized version of who you think you should be and how you think you need to respond to the world as it comes to you, whether it’s on social or in your personal life.
Glennon Doyle:
And then once you get through that, you go back and listen to the Bozoma Saint John episode and figure out how the hell you navigate this planet when you have all the gendered criticism coming at you and the race criticism coming at you. If you’re a woman of color, then it’s like 99.9% of the mail is absolute shit. Or if you’re queer.
Amanda Doyle:
You just get a P.O. Box. If you’re a black woman, you just get a P.O. Box.
Glennon Doyle:
I love this conversation because I truly feel like, if we were really honest, there are so many things that we want to do with our lives or stories we want to tell, or ways we want to show up, and the reason we don’t do it is fear of criticism. It’s real. Because anybody who says, just do it, it’ll be fine. You won’t get criticism. Not sure you will get criticism. And then when people say, I was recently talking to a friend and she said, I’m just going to do it. And then when people say the thing, I’m just not going to care. I’m not going to care. And I said to her, okay, just to be very clear, you are going to care. Whenever we say we’re going to read this thing and we’re just not going to care. I don’t care. You will care. It will hurt. It will hurt.
Glennon Doyle:
And you can still keep showing up. You will recover. It’s survivable. And so helping each other figure out how to survive criticism might be one of the most important things that we can do. Because it gets in the way. Fear of it and not knowing how to deal with it gets in the way of us doing what we were meant to do on this planet, maybe more than anything else.
Abby Wambach:
Is the goal to be criticism free though?
Glennon Doyle:
No, I think is to understand. I think the goal is to understand where it all comes from and figure out what is not personal and what is there to help us and make us better. From here out, let’s just think about what’s the 95% We don’t even bring in the house, we just throw directly into the recycling bin, and what’s the small percent that we are brave enough to bring inside with us-
Abby Wambach:
And strong enough.
Glennon Doyle:
… open, sit with it and let it make us better. I think that’s what we keep figuring out as we go along and we allow ourselves to care. We love you pod squad. We think you’re perfect just the way you are.
Abby Wambach:
I love this conversation. It’s so fascinating to me, and it just takes all these twists and turns.
Glennon Doyle:
Twists and turns. We love you.
Amanda Doyle:
This week remember, when things get hard, be messy, complicated and afraid and show up anyway.
Glennon Doyle:
See you next time.
Abby Wambach:
Word. Bye.
Glennon Doyle:
We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn’t, don’t worry about it, it’s fine.