How to Finally Let Things Go
January 31, 2023
Glennon Doyle:
Hello to our favorite people in the universe. This is Glennon. Can you introduce yourself?
Abby Wambach:
My name is Abby.
Amanda Doyle:
Mary Abigail is your name.
Abby Wambach:
Thank you.
Amanda Doyle:
Spoiler alert.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Abby’s real name is Mary.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Mary Abigail. Oh, I love it.
Amanda Doyle:
She’s the goodest girl. I am Amanda Flaherty Doyle.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s such a beautiful name.
Abby Wambach:
It is.
Glennon Doyle:
Amanda Flaherty Doyle, so beautiful. And this is We Can Do Hard Things.
Abby Wambach:
Welcome back.
Glennon Doyle:
Today we are going to be talking about stuff we’re letting go. We’re letting go of some things and we’re trying some new things. And we did an episode about this at the start of the year and we called it We’re On Some New Shit. We’re not calling this one We’re On Some New Shit, and the reason is this: some of our love bugs let us know that new shit, on some shit, or new shit is AAVE, African-American Vernacular English. And so, thank you for telling us that, and we are changing the wording. See how not hard that is to do? Okay. We are just trying to try some new things. We’re letting go of some old ideas and trying to believe some new ideas.
Abby Wambach:
I love that. You just said trying to try. It’s so good.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Trying is way too much of a commitment for me. I’m considering trying, and then I might try to try.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay? And here’s the amazing thing that happened. Amanda Flaherty Doyle and Mary Abigail Wambach and I, we talked about some ideas we’re trying to let go of so that we can be freer in 2023. And then, the Pod Squad called theirs in. So we went through hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of messages from you all about things you’re trying to let into your life and things you’re trying to let go of. And they’re so freaking good and so beautiful that we decided we had to let everyone hear them, just to get ideas for themselves.
Glennon Doyle:
And so, I just want us to consider one thing while we’re listening to this, because I couldn’t stop thinking about this morning. So we have the idea of resolutions. People are always resolving to do things or to not do things, do things or not. “I will stop doing this thing next year” or “I will start doing this thing.” And if there’s anything I’m learning in my recovery right now, it’s that you know how, sister, you’re always saying, “So my biggest question is, ‘Why do I do what I do?'”
Amanda Doyle:
I do know that.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I feel like the question of your life is, “Why do I do the things I do?” And then-
Amanda Doyle:
“Why I am like I am. Why?”
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. And there’s an answer to that.
Amanda Doyle:
What is it?
Glennon Doyle:
So you do the things you do because you believe the things you believe. You are the way you are because you believe the things you believe. So the reason why resolutions don’t work is because they’re always about actions without deep consideration of the beliefs beneath the actions.
Glennon Doyle:
So for an example, I have a friend right now who is, “I’m going to stop ghosting people. In 2023, I’m going to stop ghosting my friends.”
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay?
Abby Wambach:
Like text messages, calls, etc.
Glennon Doyle:
Right, exactly. This is a friend of mine. I’m not going to stop doing that. I’m not ready. I’m not even trying to try that. But okay, that’s never going to work until she figures out that she actually believes that conflict is death, that she actually believes that if people get to know her really, really well, they will leave anyway, so she’ll just do it now. If sister decides in 2023, “I’m going to relax more. I’m going to rest more,” unless she starts to believe that her life will become more beautiful and human if she rests more, it will just become another thing that she becomes disciplined about.
Glennon Doyle:
Here’s what I think about that. So for me, I’m going to eat more and I’m going to love my body, whatever the hell that means. Okay. I’m not going to do any of that shit for real until I actually believe that living in my body on this earth is safe. If we are changing behaviors or actions without considering at the same time the beliefs beneath them, then it’s just willpower and discipline.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Glennon Doyle:
And that never lasts because it’s not real.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Glennon Doyle:
And the horrific thing about this, because I’m in the middle of this right now, is that you can’t do one first and then do the other. So it’s like, “Cool. If I just have to change my beliefs before I can change my actions, then I’ll just change my beliefs and then my actions will change.” But that’s not how it works. You have to do them both at the same time. So it’s like, “I’m going to start considering that I don’t have to ghost people because maybe I could get to know them and they’ll still love me, and maybe conflict isn’t death. So I’m going to pretend like I believe that and keep calling this person back.” And then, slowly as the action unfolds and different results come, my belief starts to change. And then, as my belief becomes bigger, my actions keep changing. It’s this back and forth. You kind of have to live “as if” to get your actions to change, but you have to get your actions to change to start having the “as if” change at all.
Abby Wambach:
And so many of us do the action first and just are assuming that the belief will come later.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. Yeah. You have to do both, right?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Yeah. And I actually would argue before you even do the action, you have to really settle into the belief of it before any… Because I do think the simultaneous nature of it will be effective. I have an immense amount of willpower. I can work out and do it. And I still, through the 30 years of playing soccer, hated working out, until this last year when I’ve really realized, “What is the belief system around physical movement, physical fitness?” And it was always attached to suffering, so of course, I didn’t want to do that. Of course, I needed more willpower than the belief that it was actually good for me. So I don’t know. I think that this is an interesting concept. I’ve never heard it described quite like this. It’s like the belief needs to come before the action. And so much about resolutions is the opposite. It’s just action without belief, and so, of course, nothing is sustainable.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That’s why it’s over by January, whatever, because it’s like-
Abby Wambach:
By now.
Glennon Doyle:
… “That was too hard.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
If you actually believe something is not hard, it comes down to, for me, the difference between living in discipline and living in integrity. Because discipline is, “I have to do this hard thing, so I’m going to keep overriding what I want. I’m going to keep overriding what I want to do this thing that I have to do.” It’s overriding your insides. And then, integrity is matching your insides to your outer actions. “I want to want the thing before I make myself do the thing.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. That’s really good.
Glennon Doyle:
I just think it would be fun to listen to these and think about belief action with each of these. What would this person have to believe to actually change this action?
Abby Wambach:
Beautiful.
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s hear from our first friend.
Anon:
Hi. I actually was telling my therapist about this yesterday before I heard the pod, so I’m so excited that I’m on the same track, that my new shit for 2023 is that I’m not going to presume a problem when someone in my family brings me a statement. So if my 11-year old comes and says, “There’s no more ice cream in the freezer,” that’s a statement that does not require problem-solving from me.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Anon:
If my partner comes and says, “I have a lot of work to do, and the kids are still not back in school from winter break,” that is a statement that does not require an action plan for me, problem-solving, or any emotional investment. I’m happy to have a conversation, but I’m not going to do all the internal emotional work of anticipating problems, because you’re not asking me to do it. So I’m not doing it until you do ask me. And I have to say, it feels amazing.
Abby Wambach:
Whoa.
Amanda Doyle:
This is good. I can resonate with this in a big way. And I think from the, “I am constantly just serving even before there’s a problem or a suggestion of a problem, or as our friend says, ‘a statement to get in front of that and to pave the way so there isn’t any friction.'” And I’ve been reading this book called How to Raise an Adult, and it is fascinating, because they’re talking about how we are raising kids and solving all of their problems and doing their life for them. And the being of kids is what gives the skills to be adults: having to be resourceful, having to figure things out, facing conflict.
Amanda Doyle:
I learned that, first of all, in Japan, kids who are six years old routinely take the subway by themselves, on the daily. And my 10-year old cannot get the milk out of the refrigerator for cereal.
Glennon Doyle:
Correct.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s just like the level of independence is wild. And so, I think the belief system that I’ve been trying to work on as they’re not getting assignments done or struggling with friends or disappointed because they continue to forget their book on library day is, I believe that by allowing them to solve those problems or not solve them, that I am doing what they need.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
Instead of viewing my job as doing what they need by making sure they don’t have problems.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
But allowing them to go through it because it’s really compelling. How do we think they’re going to get resourceful if they never have to access any resources other than us?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Other than us. And when someone gives us a statement… I think about what changed my life in my house, which was when someone said to me, “I can’t find… Mom, I can’t find…” Okay. So first of all, that doesn’t mean I can’t find, because saying, “I can’t find” implies you’ve been looking around for something and it has become impossible. What “I can’t find” means in my house is, “I didn’t see it in my direct line of sight on my way to you.”
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. To tell you, “I can’t find it” means “It’s not in front of my face.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
“… right now.”
Amanda Doyle:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
“I don’t see it right now, immediately, when I’m looking at your face.”
Glennon Doyle:
“I can’t find my shoes” means “I don’t see my shoes on your face, mom.” Okay? That’s what it means in my house.
Abby Wambach:
What do we say to them?
Glennon Doyle:
“That sounds hard.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. We actually say, “Have you actually looked?” And 99% of the time it’s, “Oh.”
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Abby Wambach:
They didn’t think that that was part of the process.
Glennon Doyle:
But that must be our fault, right? I must have, for the first 10 years of their lives, taken on so many of their situations, just a situation, as a problem for me to solve. They think of me as some sort of search engine like a Google.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ve told them, “So what people do or have always done is think. And what thinking is, is it’s like Googling your own brain. So when you have a problem or an issue or situation, what you do is you stop for a moment and you activate your brain. And your brain might solve it before you come to me.” And they’re like, “Wow. It’s like Googling your own brain.” Right? So I do think that when someone says a statement to us, like they’re in the office, “I’m having trouble with this thing” and we take it on, the signal to the other person is, “I don’t believe that you can handle that.”
Amanda Doyle:
Or if the other person is manipulative, we’re teaching them, “Come to me and I will do this stuff that belongs to you.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. So you can reflect instead of solve. You don’t have to be like, “I accept this job. I accept this job that you have created for me now.” But you also don’t have to be an asshole.
Abby Wambach:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Glennon Doyle:
“That sounds hard. What do you think?”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I think what you were saying before we even started the calls, this idea of, “What’s the belief underneath what she’s trying to resolve?” And the belief, and probably the family’s belief, is that, “Mama bear is the problem solver, not me, kid, not me, husband.” So what she has to do is she has to work with, I am now a statement listener rather than problem-solver, and to disassociate herself from that role because it is a role. I’m the problem-solver in my family. And so, this one hit me pre pretty hard. “How do I not enable the people around me to keep this circus going?” Because really, it’s just a circus. And like you said, sister, we’re actually doing our kids a disservice by not giving them the agency themselves to solve the problems of their lives.
Glennon Doyle:
And then, you have to find your worth in something else.
Abby Wambach:
Correct.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s interesting. “What am I worth outside of being the crisis manager of this situation?”
Amanda Doyle:
And then you switch your… I am still the helper of my family. What I’m doing is helping them develop the skills they need.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
By letting them figure shit out.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yep.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good. That was really-
Glennon Doyle:
What I’m doing is trying to put myself out of a job, constantly.
Abby Wambach:
That was really provoking. You really hit it on the nail from me to wording this.
Glennon Doyle:
And then also, before we move on, I think amazing things happen when we can suggest to people that some of their problems aren’t even problems. This reminded me of something that I wrote in Untamed, which was that I remember when our oldest daughter was little, she came home and she told me there was a couple girls in her class that didn’t like her, so she would say, “So and so, so and so, they don’t like me. They won’t play with me.” And my fear was big. I had this belief that everyone’s supposed to like you. And so I started, “Well, why? What happened? Do we want to invite them over?” My reaction to her was, “Oh yes, this is a problem that we should solve.” Now, I never said that, those words, but my reaction to her in engaging with that as a problem was confirming to her, “Oh yes, if people don’t like me, it is a problem that I have to solve.”
Abby Wambach:
Oh, no. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And then, five years later, after mom doing some personal work around likability and people pleasing, that same child came to me when she was in seventh grade and she said, “So-and-so like me. I really don’t think so-and-so likes me.” And I remember looking at her and saying, “Huh. Sounds like a fact, not a problem.” And her face was like, “Oh yeah. Sometimes people don’t like us and we don’t have to struggle to fix it.”
Abby Wambach:
Oh, so good.
Glennon Doyle:
Anyway, thank you for that one because it got us thinking a whole lot. Let’s hear from Nicole.
Nicole:
This is Nicole and I got to tell you, I am leaving behind being clenched all day, every day. I keep it in my jaw, I keep it in my stomach. I might breathe four times an hour. I’m subtly exaggerating, but that’s been my MO for 38 years, and I’m over it. I’m done. I’m so done. And in 2023, I’m actually doing a stoplight challenge, where at every mother-effing stoplight, I ask myself if I’m breathing and what’s going through my head. That awareness of my own thoughts, I think I have been sorely lacking, and I am excited to completely do a 180 and start breathing and living again.
Glennon Doyle:
All right, everybody.
Abby Wambach:
It’s so good.
Glennon Doyle:
Unclench your jaw right now.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, yeah. This is good.
Glennon Doyle:
Deep breath. Nicole, I’m going to let you two talk about this. This is all I’m doing in my life right now. I don’t even know what to say about this one. I think 10 times an hour, I remind myself to unclench my jaw, because it’s like the thing we talked about in the beginning. I’m clenching my jaw because I’m stressed or anxious, or am I anxious because I’m clenching my jaw? Right? And it’s this feedback loop. I can remember that my jaw is clenched, unclench, and suddenly I am less anxious. It’s not just that I’m anxious, so I’m clenching my jaw. Is this making sense?
Abby Wambach:
It is.
Amanda Doyle:
It is.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Amanda Doyle:
It is. I love it. I don’t think there’s much to say. I love it and be aware and checking in with yourself with the stoplight challenge, or if you don’t commute, any other challenge you can think of. Every time, right after you hang up from a call, unclench your jaw, check your shoulders, breathe. It’s a beautiful thing to do for yourself.
Abby Wambach:
All I would say for this one is just be aware of the complete 180 you’re wanting.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
That really stuck out to me, because it’s hard in the first couple of weeks. If you can literally unclench for one second, that’s progress. And then, in another few weeks, maybe it’s for two seconds or two minutes, whatever it is. I think that the expectation to be this completely different person, it’s going to take time. So the 180, I would maybe hope by the end of the year you’re like 45 degrees.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I was just thinking, “This year, I’m going to do a complete seven.” Let’s hear from Kathy.
Kathy:
Hello, beautiful pod. My name is Kathy, and one of my resolutions for 2023 is to take every single opportunity to speak out against oppressive comments. And so, of course, I had to make this call. And I was always a good girl: polite, respectful, and generally highly self-regulating. All of that good grooming resulted in me too often finding myself dumbstruck in the face of casual, racist, and sexist remarks that offended me to the core. My brain would seem to shut down for fear of being impolite until the opportunity for response would seem to have passed.
Kathy:
Now, I am a fabulous 53-year old crone, and I have no fucks to give for that kind of politeness. In 2023, I won’t ask myself whether this or that comment warrants addressing or whether I have the right words. I’ll just call it out. And if I inevitably suffer a politeness relapse, I won’t berate myself or think, “Ah, better luck next time.- I will go back to the person and address it as soon as possible. I will do it kindly and I will do it consistently. And I know from experience that it will open some hearts and minds. I hope that other well groomed Pod Squaders might consider this as well. Thanks so much for hearing me out. Love you all. Bye-bye.
Glennon Doyle:
We know Kathy is one of us, because she literally wrote that down. She prepared it so much, she wrote it down. And Kathy, that is a mission statement.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Beautiful.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I think something that it just brought up in me is when we have these aspirations and resolutions, especially about something like this, that the world has conditioned us to respond and act in certain ways. And I think what could be interesting about this is the response from the people around, right? Because that’s what the fear is. The belief system that she’s operating or has been operating under is, “My politeness is more a priority than other people’s safety.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
And I think we all have done this, right? And I think that that’s really an important distinction to make, is, “Actually, my politeness is harmful.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It’s not nice. We have a saying in recovery, “Nice is not nice.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s like, it’s not even my place. It’s like, “What these people in this group think of me is more important than other people’s safety.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s more self-centered. And white women, this is what we are conditioned to do. We think it’s nice. We think it’s polite. It’s actually being foot soldiers for racism and patriarchy and all of these things. It’s whatever the opposite of kind and nice is. It’s actually quite malicious.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Politeness is a maliciousness.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And it’s hard. I struggle with this. It’s very hard when the casual comment, that is your neighbor and you’re going to see them 1,400 times. And it’s not egregious, but it does kind of…
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like a whistle, like a dog whistle. Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. It’s just a little bit of a thing. And I hear it more with sexism than other things. And I always, as I’m walking away, I’m processing it in time and being like, “Ugh.” And then I feel sick and then I berate myself. So I really like what another Pod Squader wrote in, similar to this, is they said one of the things they’re trying this year is repeat back when someone says something that doesn’t sit right. Let them hear it another time.
Abby Wambach:
Ooh. That’s so good.
Amanda Doyle:
And so, if you struggle like I do with what exactly to say in that moment, where you’re not coming from your high horse and berating them, I think that’s a really good suggestion.
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
Just to repeat it back and say, “You said that you tell your boys’ team when they’re not running their drills right, “Okay, ladies, looking good.” And letting it sit.
Abby Wambach:
Holy shit, yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re just saying it back.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And you’re just letting it sit, because then it’s for everybody to ingest.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Or even saying, “What do you mean?” And letting the person explain it back to you. It doesn’t have to be the confrontation, it just, the call-out can be the forcing the other person to be accountable for what they said.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Brittany Packnett Cunningham taught me that one, which has worked best for me throughout my life, which is you hear something that sounds… Okay, here’s a specific example. When we lived in Florida, we were sending our kids to the local public school. A woman said to me, “Wow, you chose to send your kids to that school.” And there was something underneath it. And I said, “Yeah. You look surprised. Why?” And she said, “Oh. There’s just so many other schools around here that are considered to be better.” And then I said, “What do you mean by better? Really? Better?” And you can play dumb.
Glennon Doyle:
So what she meant, whether or not she knew what she meant in the very beginning, was, “Aren’t there a lot more low-income and brown people that go to that school? Maybe you just didn’t know that there’s a lot of other schools in the area that are mostly white.” So what do you mean by better? Brittany says that racism never stands up in the end. It’s not true. It’s not real. So if you keep asking questions, the other person will always end up as, “This is horseshit and this is not true.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
But just not letting it stand and keep asking questions is a good strategy.
Abby Wambach:
I also think just one more thing on this, because Tish has been teaching me a lot about this recently, the difference between kindness and being a good person and politeness. And I think we get them mixed up. We believe that being polite is kind.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Abby Wambach:
But she said, if we teach our kids to just be a good person, to be kind. And some of being kind would be calling out racism, right? That’s kindness. What she was saying is, if you are a good person, the politeness will come.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I actually think that an impoliteness often suggests kindness, because politeness is like, “Here’s the script. We have the situation. We’re in this page here and we’re in this room. Here’s your script. If you stick to the script, that’s polite.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And kindness is often going off-script and saying something that totally disrupts the script.
Abby Wambach:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
So it’s being disruptive that is seen as impolite, which is actually often deep kindness, because it’s like there’s something more important here than staying on script.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. And it’s like we teach our kids this politeness. You say ma’am and sir.
Glennon Doyle:
Serve status quo.
Abby Wambach:
Tish said this yesterday. “We teach our kids to say ma’am and sir, but then what happens to all the non-binary people? Or what if you misgender somebody?”
Glennon Doyle:
It’s actually not kind.
Abby Wambach:
It’s actually not kind, but it’s backwards. We’re teaching our kids politeness so that they can be good people, but it doesn’t actually always work.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, politeness, the origin of the word politeness is from “to polish, to make smooth.” So when you think about, in your interactions, what you are doing when you’re being polite is making that situation smooth for all involved. What you’re doing is you’re enabling everyone in that situation to feel comfortable and like there are no riffs. And that works great if what’s happening in that situation is not harmful to folks. If what’s happening in that situation is harmful for folks, what you’re doing is still making it smooth and making sure there is no friction and there is no obstacle to whatever that person is doing.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
So you’re making it easy by being polite. And I think that that is something to think about when you’re deciding where to be polite.
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm. That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
Where to be polite. That’s good. Yeah. If you’re being polite in a shitty system, no thank you.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
If you’re being polite in a system that’s kind and honors everyone there, then go for it.
Amanda Doyle:
Let’s hear from Meg.
Meg:
Hi, this is Meg. The new shit that I am doing in 2023 is letting go of the word should. I am constantly, constantly using the word should, to the point where I don’t realize it anymore. I’m constantly worrying about what I should do, what other people are wanting of me instead of what I want. So the new shit I am bringing in is tapping into my wants, even as simple as, “I should call this person. Do I want to call this person right now? If not, I’m not going to do it.”
Amanda Doyle:
Alice’s therapist sends home homework every week, and it’s really good.
Glennon Doyle:
For you.
Amanda Doyle:
So our family’s been doing it.
Glennon Doyle:
Amazing. I love that.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. It’s super good for me. So I feel like it’s a really good idea to get your kid into therapy and then ask for homework assignments, because it’s helping all of us.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, that’s awesome.
Amanda Doyle:
Anyway, she brought home this sheet. It’s the “What are you thinking?” Team. Okay? And there is 10 different sets of ways of thinking, thinking traps. It’s “All or Nothing” Allan, “Blaming” Blake, “Over and Over” Oliver. Anyway, the point is we-
Glennon Doyle:
Are they all boy names?
Amanda Doyle:
No. No, no, no, no.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, okay. Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
For example, the one that described me is “Should have” Sheronda.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Amanda Doyle:
So my kids have been calling me “Should have” Mama. Sheronda always talks about the things she should do or she must do, even though nobody else is telling her she has to do them. When she’s hanging out with her friends, she thinks, “I should be studying so I can be a straight-A student. No matter how much she does, she always thinks she should be doing more, then she feels guilty. Sheronda also thinks a lot about what other people should be doing. If they don’t do it, she gets very angry and frustrated.”
Abby Wambach:
That’s so good.
Glennon Doyle:
Is there a solution for Sheronda? Because if so, I’d love to hear it, no?
Amanda Doyle:
Me, too. I think we have to wait till next week to find out what to do.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, no.
Amanda Doyle:
But I’m just saying, it’s a whole shoulda syndrome.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re all shoulding over yourself. You can enjoy what’s happening. And so, Alice and I were talking about this, and she was explain to me more. And I was like, “So for example, that shoulda thinking trap happens if say I’m relaxing and watching the TV and I’m just thinking to myself, ‘Well, I should be doing that work,’ then it messes up my relaxing.” And she goes, “No, that just means you’re never relaxing if you’re spending your relaxing thinking about what you should be doing.”
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my gosh.
Amanda Doyle:
So anyway, I love the idea of getting out of the shoulda brain. And I am with Meg this year. I’m going to try to work on that trap thinking.
Abby Wambach:
That’s so good.
Glennon Doyle:
Can you ask Alice’s therapist if we could maybe go through all of those on a pod? I want to know what all the thinking traps are. I’m serious.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
“Psych Out” Sam, “Badmouth” Brandy, “Emo” Emily, “Drama Queen” Jean.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, just ask her. Okay?
Abby Wambach:
Well also, you hit something that-
Glennon Doyle:
“Drama Queen” Jean.
Abby Wambach:
One of the most important things I ever learned in therapy early on was, I was doing the should game, and my therapist, you said it a little bit ago but I think it’s a huge deal. “Don’t should all over yourself.”
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly.
Abby Wambach:
I literally still say it. This is 25 years.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. She says it a lot.
Abby Wambach:
Obviously, I love cussing and stuff, so it really landed.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You’re like, “That’s it.”
Glennon Doyle:
There’s just some something-
Amanda Doyle:
“That’s what I’m taken.”
Glennon Doyle:
There’s something with really exploring the want instead of the should. And, “Should according to whom?” Is an interesting question. Also, I just want to say, sister, I think it’s so, Amanda, I think it’s so great that-
Amanda Doyle:
Sheronda.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, Sheronda. We’ll just call you Sheronda. I just think it’s so great that you are incorporating all the things that Alice is doing into your family. I think that’s such a good idea, because therapy is really just humaning lessons.
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Glennon Doyle:
And for Alice to see that, because you can say that to your kid, but then if it’s really just your kid going away for an hour with a therapist, they believe that it’s just for them. So I think it’s such a beautiful idea to bring it home to the whole family. And also, just as a former teacher, I know that everything we do with kids is distilled good stuff, like broth that’s distilled. It’s not for kids. It’s for all of us. I just love it. Okay, let’s hear from Shay.
Shay:
Hey, Pod Squad. My name is Shay. I’m sitting here drinking my coffee, thinking to myself, “Wow. I’m really ready to let go of just being that sweet person to everyone, that anyone can ask something of me, and I’m like, “Of course. I’ll do it. It’ll be ready and it’ll be perfect.” And moving forward, I think my new shit is, I think I’m ready to be a little salty. I think I’m ready to say to people, “No, thank you. That actually doesn’t work for me.” Or turn down invitations that I don’t want to attend.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Shay:
So maybe my old shit is just being sweet, “Sweet” Shay. I can still be sweet, but maybe not all the time. And my new shit is allowing myself to be a little salty and not worrying how other people are going to react to that, and just being really okay and comfortable with standing my ground and making choices that feel good to me. Anyway, have a good one. Happy New Year, or at least New Year.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
New Year.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you, Shay. New Year.
Amanda Doyle:
Salty.
Abby Wambach:
It’s so good.
Amanda Doyle:
Salty and sweet.
Glennon Doyle:
“Salty” Shay.
Amanda Doyle:
Nobody likes too, too sweet, especially the person that’s trying to be too, too sweet.
Glennon Doyle:
No. And she’s done being Shayrhonda. All right?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
She’s going to be a little more salty. I love that. Let’s hear from Sue.
Sue:
Hi, this is Sue. And one thing I’m thinking of is something my therapist said to me. I’m a mom of three children and I’m a teacher, so I spend a lot of time with young people and I give a lot of myself. And my therapist said to me something that just kind of blew my mind. She said to me one day, “When you over-function, you allow others to under-function.” And that’s going to be my new mantra, and I’m going to try to stop over-functioning for others so that they can function on their own, which will be hard. It’s a hard thing, but I’m working on it. All right. Thank you so much. I love you guys.
Glennon Doyle:
I would like to ask sister about that one, because you are a massive over-functioner. You are functioning the shit out of everything constantly. Do you feel this? Talk to us about over-functioning.
Amanda Doyle:
I think that some people who identify with being perfectionists might be over-functioners. I think people who are highly stressed out and feel responsible for quality control for a lot of things might be over-functioners. I think the first Pod Squader who talked about not a problem, just a fact, might be trying to come down from some over-functioning.
Amanda Doyle:
I think what’s interesting about it is that sometimes it’s like a chicken and an egg thing. If you have the over-functioning role in a relationship or a dynamic or a work setting, then it has a polarizing effect on the people that you are with. So if the one person started out as average functioning and then you were over-functioning, they have a tendency to become less and less functioning, which causes you to be increasingly stressed out. So you hype up your over-functioning because you think that’s the only way to net out with a functioning system, is to continue to get more and more and more functioning, which just shuts down the other person more and more.
Amanda Doyle:
I think that it is a really interesting thing to look at and just acknowledge and maybe know that it is, in fact, all an ecosystem. So if your kids keep coming to you to pour the milk and you keep pouring for them, they’re never going to stop coming to you to pour the milk. If you keep taking care of everything, there is no reason why anyone would take care of anything, not because they’re assholes, just because that that is the way the ecosystem works.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. And, and, I think I’m just thinking about in our actual relationship, or I think when you are a highly capable, high-functioning person… So I would say in physical activities, in things going on in this material world here, Abby is a high functioner and I’m a little bit slower at things. So let me give you an example. If you’re next to me and I’m loading the dishwasher, and I’m not doing it exactly as fast as you would do it or correctly, the correct way, but for sure the way I’m doing it, the dishes are going to get done.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, no. There is a level of good enough with dishwasher-
Glennon Doyle:
Good enough.
Amanda Doyle:
That is not good enough with Abby.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. Or something else, just something. If we’re traveling and I’m supposed to look up a map or a direction or something, I’m not fast at technology. And so, I will sense that I’m not functioning as quickly or as correctly in a lot of areas, and that just shuts me down.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I will just be like, “Fuck it. I’m not doing the dishwasher then. I’m not, I can’t, I’m not going to do the technology then,” because I’m scared I’m not doing it right. So then, it becomes, “Oh, Abby’s the only one doing the dishes. Abby’s the only one doing any map stuff.” The fact is, she can do it better. She can do it better. But is that really better in the end, because then the over-functioner really could take over every damn thing or feel like they have to take over every damn thing.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Yeah. So basically, what you’re saying is I need to come down.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Abby Wambach:
No, no. Actually, I’m not offended in any way. I actually want to talk this through, because in my mind, this is the mind of the over-functioner, I think that maybe this is wrong, but this is what I’m thinking. When we were doing the dishes last night, I was like, “Kids, you guys do the dishes.” But when I looked inside the dishwasher, there were a lot of dishes already in it. And so, it was going to require a 10-level dishwash person to be able to do it correctly so that we could get all the dishes in and only do one load of dishwashing. And also, it just takes me so much less time to do it. And so, here I am just like, “I’ll do it.” But there’s like a little bubble in my head that’s like… A little resentment gets built over time.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, yeah.
Abby Wambach:
A little resentment’s like, “Why the fuck am I the one that has to do this? Why can’t anybody learn how to do this good enough?”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And babe, what you would have seen if you would have been watching from the outside is that you said, “Kids, you’re going to do the dishes tonight.” And then, you walked directly, not even 30 seconds, you walked directly to the sink and started doing the dishes.
Abby Wambach:
Because I knew what was in the dishwasher and they didn’t.
Glennon Doyle:
But that’s over-functioning.
Abby Wambach:
I know. And I was like, I had already gone through the whole thing, “It will be easier if I do it.”
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
And so how do I-
Glennon Doyle:
And so, maybe the answer is to leave the room or something.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t know. Or just… It’s not a criticism of you, because I do it to you all the time in different areas.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
We all do it with each other in different areas.
Abby Wambach:
Okay. Well I love this. This is going to give me something to think about, over-functioning in certain ways. Also, I don’t want to get lost. That’s why I do the math thing. Sorry.
Glennon Doyle:
Can we hear from Alison?
Abby Wambach:
She missed it.
Glennon Doyle:
What?
Abby Wambach:
Nothing.
Glennon Doyle:
Did you say something about math?
Allison:
Hi, Glennon and Abby and sister. My name is Allison. In 2023, I am releasing myself from a culture of urgency and quickness and always working towards releasing myself from what diet culture tells us a woman should be. And instead, I’m embracing the word slow. I’m embracing the slowness and permission to move my body in a slow and gentle way, and approaching everything with a little bit more caution and slowness and presentness. I think that comes with being a little bit more slow. I love, love, love your podcast. Thank you so much for everything that you’re doing and making me believe that I can do hard things.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Moving, flow, slow.
Glennon Doyle:
I think she might have said slow, I’m not sure. But I think-
Amanda Doyle:
She said slow, yeah.
Abby Wambach:
She said slow. She said flow and slow.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I just want to wear a t-shirt that says, “I’m with Allison in 2023.”
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s hear from Sophia.
Sophia:
Hey, y’all. This is Sophia. I’m bringing into 2023 that I provide my own safety. I spent years talking about which people are safe for me to be around, which relationships are safe. I think I was measuring that by when I could openly express myself or how people responded to me or made me feel or got triggered or whatever. But no, I provide my own safety. And so, I’m just always safe. And I might exit rooms that I don’t need to be in. I might block out of conversations. I might not participate in discussions, but I’m just always safe. And so, I’m not carrying the conversation forward anymore about who is and isn’t isn’t safe. I’m just always safe.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Abby Wambach:
Whew.
Glennon Doyle:
I actually would love to just have a whole episode about this, because Sophia, this is really big for me right now. I have never felt safe anywhere. And so, that is why I’m always controlling every single thing about everything all around me, because I feel like I have to create safe spaces everywhere I go because I didn’t understand that I was safe inside of my own body.
Glennon Doyle:
And something happened really cool recently, which is that I tend to be extremely triggered by anyone at a table or in a room that has a touch of narcissism or extreme self-centeredness or people who take up all the room or talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. It’s a whole thing, which I’ll get into another time. But I was recently at a table with a talk, talk, talk narcissist, and I was breathing and was realizing, “I’m safe in my body. I don’t have to fix this person. I don’t have to be triggered.” This person, let’s call him Nick. “Nick is just over there Nicking, and I’m over here. Glennoning.”
Abby Wambach:
I kept looking at you, waiting, waiting for any kind of outward sign that you are over this person and that we were at a level red 10. And I just kept looking at your face, and your face was fucking fine. I was so fucking amazed.
Amanda Doyle:
I wish I would have been there to witness that.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I think we all have stuff from our childhood that when we were little we didn’t have any power in the situation. And so, something in me always was like, “Now I have the power and I don’t have to put up with this.” And so then, I would make my job to be to fix that person or put them in their place. I said, “Everyone’s clearly uncomfortable with this person because they’re hijacking the whole thing, and so I have to make everyone more comfortable.” And my therapist was like, “How? By blowing up the whole table by saying something that’s so inflammatory? Maybe you’re the only one who’s super uncomfortable, but now everyone is.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
“Because you just said this thing that blew up the whole…” So anyway.
Abby Wambach:
I’m not uncomfortable with narcissists. I think it’s hilarious.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, everyone’s uncomfortable with something different because of the way they were raised.
Abby Wambach:
Sure. Sure, sure, sure.
Glennon Doyle:
Because of childhood patterns that… So my friend recently, who’s doing all kinds of good Al-Anon work, said something that made me feel so good. And she said, “I am never trapped. I am always safe. I am never trapped. I am an adult. I have a body, I have an ID, and I have a driver’s license. I am never trapped anywhere.”
Abby Wambach:
And a credit card, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And a credit card, right? Meaning I can get up… If I’m in a situation where I don’t feel safe, I get to stand up and walk away, no matter where I am, no matter what conversation I’m in, no matter what room I’m in, that we create our own safety. Thank you, Sophia.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. I think if this resonates with you, go back and listen to the holiday episodes about sturdiness. I think that that’s a lot of what we’re exploring. Let’s hear from Whitney.
Whitney:
Hello, this is Whitney. I think I am leaving behind this notion I’ve held since I was a very little girl that I’m not allowed to take a break. I am almost finished with my grad school program for Clinical Mental Health Counseling. And literally, the last day of finals I sat in a coffee shop and pulled out a book to start reading for next semester and had a deep reflection moment and thought, “Wow. I really, truly think I don’t deserve to rest, deep down.” And I’m working on identifying that voice because I don’t think it’s my own.
Whitney:
And then, of course, I call my partner of five years and tell him, and he’s like, “Mm-hmm. Yes, I’ve noticed this.” But to me, I was sobbing with my brain melting out of my ears, which is funny when your partner’s not surprised, but you’re having an epiphany. And I think I’m going to bring rest into this new year. I think I’m going to bring peaceful acceptance, and I kind of want to work towards celebrating it. Now I’m aware of it, now I kind of want to celebrate this.
Abby Wambach:
My little naps during the middle of the day.
Glennon Doyle:
I know. I used to think you were lazy, and now I think you’re a genius.
Abby Wambach:
I love them.
Glennon Doyle:
Just genius. It’s genius. You all have to go back if you haven’t listened to the Tricia Hersey episode. I read every single article about Tricia when she put her book out after our interview, and she said she measures her success by how many naps she took that week. Think about that. Of course.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
You are that at peace that you have laid your body down to celebrate beingness. Yes to that being the measure of success.
Abby Wambach:
By that calculation, I am very successful.
Glennon Doyle:
No, I agree. I agree. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Very.
Amanda Doyle:
I think when you said about beliefs at the beginning, this one is core, right?
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
I think it’s for anyone, myself included, who struggles with worthiness around rest and peace or general discomfort with being comfortable, because you think that that means something is wrong or you’re not doing enough. I think it’s interesting to think about that and maybe to think about if worthiness is too complicated.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
What is your belief about why good things come to you? What is your belief about how you manage to have in your life things that you value?
Abby Wambach:
That’s really good.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
Because if you believe that good things only come to you because you make yourself suffer and work really hard for them, then you will be looking for ways to suffer and work really hard.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
Because that is how you think you got and will keep and will continue to get things that you value.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And I think it’s just an interesting exercise to do that, part because general worthiness is confusing to me. It’s so complicated. But if I really believe that, then I have to believe that I’m seeking out opportunities to suffer, because I continue to want good things. Whereas if I played with the belief, or even looked at my life a little bit more objectively, and thought, “A lot of it has been luck and ease and connections to the people that I love,” then maybe I’d be looking for ease and connection as much as I’m looking for suffering.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Abby Wambach:
Fucking brilliant.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It’s really good.
Glennon Doyle:
With that, we shall end this time of trying to try. We love you, Pod Squad.
Abby Wambach:
Gosh, they’re just so smart.
Glennon Doyle:
And let’s just think about our underlying beliefs that kind of program all of our actions. And we will see you back here next time. Have a day.
Amanda Doyle:
Have a day.
Abby Wambach:
Have a day.
Glennon Doyle:
Bye.