The Most Radical Way to Heal: Internal Family Systems with Dr. Becky Kennedy
January 19, 2023
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we are back with one of our favorite detectives of life, brilliant minds who help us figure out who we are, Dr. Becky. If you did not listen to the last episode, please go back and listen to our episode about attachment, because it’s going to help you understand this one. Dr. Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist, bestselling author, mom of three, has been named the Millennial Parenting Whisperer by Time Magazine. Dr. Becky is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller, Food Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, and founder of The Good Inside Membership Platform, a hub with Dr. Becky’s complete parenting content collection all in one place. Her podcast, Good Inside with Dr. Becky, was one of Apple Podcasts best shows of 2021.
Glennon Doyle:
And if you want to know what Dr. Becky means to us, us in our family and us on this pod squad, you must go back to episodes 130 and 131, in which Dr. Becky explains the world and our lives and fixes everything forever. Dr. Becky, thank you so much for being back with us today.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So happy to be here.
Glennon Doyle:
So I reached out to you a while back and asked you if you would come on the pod to talk to us about something called Internal Family Systems. This is a theory. It’s a approach to therapy. I’m going to give you my idea of it, because I have been interested in Internal Family Systems, since you told me on episode-
Amanda Doyle:
… 130 and 131…
Glennon Doyle:
… that it is often used with eating disorders. And Dr. Becky as an aside, I have talked to the pod squad already this year about how I am back in intense therapy, because of my recent diagnosis with anorexia. So I am in this right shit now. I am in the shit.
Amanda Doyle:
As opposed to all the other times when we haven’t been in the shit, Dr. Becky.
Glennon Doyle:
Right, when we’ve been easy-breezy and fine and as have had things figured out, you might be surprised to know. So the idea of Internal Family Systems, the way my therapist started talking to me and eased me into this, is I would say, “I don’t have a problem. I’m fine,” in a million different ways. And she would say, “Okay, friend, why don’t you talk to me about the voice inside your head that speaks to you whenever you want to eat or experience food or?” And I would tell her the voice, what the voice would say.
Glennon Doyle:
And she would say, “Okay, so if one of your daughters told you that that voice was coming up in her head, what would you say to your daughter?” And I would say, “Well, I would immediately understand that that voice was unhealthy and not free. And I would be very upset. And then so my therapist would say, “Okay, so then can you understand that maybe you have a voice inside your head that is not helpful to you? And perhaps that self, that voice, that is that self, was developed in childhood to protect you from something,” which led us to this idea of Internal Family Systems and the idea that our minds are multiple, which is not a new idea. It’s just that we have many different selves inside of us, and that our mental system is actually more like a family than it is like an individual. Can you explain that?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yes. So I didn’t study IFS in grad school. I don’t know if it wasn’t as big then. It’s becoming increasingly popular, which is just amazing. But Dick Schwartz is the author of all things Family Systems. And really I feel like he understands the human mind in a way that is so unique. And everyone I know who reads his book or learns about IFS is like, “This just makes sense.” It makes so much sense, your body’s like, “Yes.” It just speaks to how we’re organized. So I think the main idea really of IFS is that the mind is multiple and that everyone both has a Self, and that’s a capital S in IFS, and everyone has parts.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
I think when we think about the word parts, we think multiple personality disorder or schizophrenia and there’s a real pathologizing. I think Dick Schwartz would say that’s a very extreme version of parts. Some adaptations early on had to be so extreme. And everybody has parts. And most of our kind of quote “symptoms” or our moments of reactivity, i.e. triggers when we’re like, “Oh geez, why did I say that? I never wanted to say that. I didn’t want to react that way. I just turned into a version of myself. I don’t even recognize those words,” I think those are keywords of, “Oh.” And the way I envision it is a part of me, kind of who should have a rightful seat at the boardroom table in my life, they just took over the CEO. Right? That’s what happened. They just took over the driver’s seat.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And the theory is that there’s no bad parts. There’s no bad parts. Some parts have been forced into extreme roles that they don’t even want to play and would relinquish, if they felt like their role wasn’t necessary for the system to function.
Glennon Doyle:
To Protect you. They’re protecting you.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yes. Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
All the parts are trying to protect you.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yes.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And they legitimately did protect you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
For the majority of the years where you were learning, learning about what was safe in the world when you were utterly dependent… So in adulthood those extreme parts probably no longer protect you in reality, at least not in their extreme sense. And yet, as we’ve talked about, the systems, the parts that wired early to protect us, understandably, are hesitant to let go. And yet they can, when they start to see that the system and the Self can be safe. And then they can take on different less extreme roles.
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm. Interesting.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s so funny, Glennon, the way you explained it, because we both studied this. And I don’t relate to how you expressed it at all. And I think it’s so funny the way our minds work so differently. So can I say my way-
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, you do yours, and then I want to do more of mine.
Amanda Doyle:
… just in case people understand don’t speak Glennon, just speak Amanda. Okay, so we are all arranged of all of these parts. All of these parts are equally beneficial to us. When we come in this world, they are all equally valuable. Then as we experience attachment injuries, as we experience traumas, the parts that experience those traumas and injuries, or they’re shamed out of us, which is all the way of saying the same thing, they step into a role to protect us.
Amanda Doyle:
So they have been shamed. Now that original role becomes a role to protect us. So in Schwartz’s language that’s burdens. They take on burdens, as a result of those injuries. And they take that job very seriously and they hold onto it and do whatever is necessary to do it. Now, the role that first protected us become roles that hurt us later on. So as they’re hurting us, whether it’s an eating disorder, whether it’s an addiction or whatever, we are told by the world, “Hey, ignore that part of you. That part is bad. That part of you is creating pain for you and for everyone around you. Just tell it to shut up that part. That’s the bad part of you. Focus on these other parts of you.”
Amanda Doyle:
But when we starve any part of ourselves, they just get stronger trying to get our attention, because every part is equally valuable and beneficial to us. So when we try to starve it out, it just takes over. And so that’s why we have to look beneath it and say, “What are you trying to protect? What are you trying to say?” And when we unburden, that part that shows up in our life in a way that’s actually helpful to us.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
There is a truth here, that it’s not even mine. It’s his. I think Dick says, “We’re all born with parts. Everyone has parts, and everyone has a Self. Both are true.” And then the goal is not to ever get rid of parts, because… One way of thinking about a part could be an intense feeling, let’s say like anger. So instead of thinking of anger, because it is kind of this amorphous… What if there’s a part of me that feels anger. Let’s say that. That’s different from the Self, yes. I always think it’s like the sturdiest leader is Self. It’s very grounded, very present, calm, confident, capable, compassionate, all the things. And then, yes, what happens is there’s a kind of multi-layered system to protect us, if those parts weren’t received in attachment, if those parts have to be kept away.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And now think about… Let’s say my angry part had to learn basically the closet itself, like get into the closet. That is not safe here. Well, how would your body manage that? And in IFS theory, there’s two ways. And it makes sense. Number one is these parts called managers. Managers are the day-to-day things you do to keep your exiled parts, the anger, in the closet. So maybe you stay very, very busy. You’re always busying yourself with a million different things. Maybe you’re very perfectionistic. Again, it’s just a way to kind of keep the mind going, going, going. Maybe you’re very obsessive. That would be a manager part. Once in a while the managers, they struggle. They get tired. They take a rest, and then that exile, that anger, comes out of the closet, oh no.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Then we have another part, a firefighter part. A firefighter part is not proactive in keeping it in the closet. It is reactive. That’s why they act intensely. Drug use, oh, that is a fast way to get rid of a feeling. Being perfectionistic isn’t a fast way to get rid of a feeling. It’s just a way to kind of keep feelings at bay. But I don’t know, taking a hit of something, oh, that that’s going to work like, “Okay, done.” That’s a firefighter. Just like being a firefighter in a situation, there’s more impact right away of that. You’re probably going to spray the extinguisher and probably messy some other things in the house, but at least it did its core function, which was an extreme reaction to the part that is not safe.
Glennon Doyle:
The exile parts, where all the trauma is, all the sadness, all the depth, I call it kind of the canyon of purple glittery, black, fuzzy… Whatever over the canyon is the exiled parts of us. The managers and the firefighters, their jobs really are to protect us from the exile, to not feel what the exile feels. The managers do it by control. And the firefighters do it by setting things on fire, so that we are distracted from the exile’s pain.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yes. Yes. I think that’s all right.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So for my eating disorder stuff, this is how I feel like. And I know this is not exactly it, but I feel like I thought I had dealt with my shit. And what I found out was that the exile part, that was where my bulimia was. And I never went far enough into the exile to heal the exile part of me that wanted to be heard, that wanted to be understood, that wanted to be revisited, that wanted to discuss that trauma that wound us up there. But I never did that. I just put my managers on high, high, high function. I just became anorexic. Anorexia is a high-freaking-level manager that’s like, “We will control this shit, so that we never have to go back to the exile.” So now the work is to let the exile… I feel like poetry to me is I can be in my exile parts, so then I have to delve into poetry, where I can let the exile part of me speak.
Abby Wambach:
Is that the goal of Internal Family Systems is to reach into the exile parts of you and allow them to come to the surface without having to manage or firefight them away?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
The way I think about it is it’s just bringing a little bit more homeostasis to the whole system. So it’s to get to know your parts. So even, Glennon, what you were saying, this, “I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m fine.” And you can look at the part that talks to you around food, which maybe you said is the messed up part. But I also think of very IFS-informed intervention be like, “Let’s just stay with that part of you right now, the it’s-fine part. Get to know that part.” When we’re struggling, often our parts only know each other, and they hate each other. They don’t like each other. The part of you, that says, “I’m fine”, hates the part of you that’s not fine and probably the part of you that’s not fine hates the part that’s always like, “I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m fine.”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Neither, in some ways are held in Self. Self and the intervention with the therapist is like, “Tell me about that. You must be an important part of this system, the, “I’m fine. I’m fine. Yeah, yeah, look at me and my amazing podcast and bestselling book. I’m fine. How could I not be fine?”, and would be very curious to get to know that part. What would happen if you weren’t doing your job of telling everyone how fine you are? What might happen? You must be worried about something. And exploring that, maybe to the point, even in a session, where it’d be like, “I wonder… ” If now that we understand more about what the worry is, maybe a therapist might even say, we can even do this to ourselves, like, “That biggest fear, I won’t let that happen. I’m not going to let… Could you… “
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And this is such beautiful language, and it’s so powerful to speak to yourself. “I’m going to ask the part of you that says everything’s fine, if she would step back, just step back. Make a little space for this other part of you that comes up around food that says, I don’t know, awful things to yourself, whatever it is. Let’s just get to know that part for a little bit.” And you’re restructuring what’s happening, because you start to connect and be curious about and be compassionate about these parts, instead of these parts only warring with your Self.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Because if you live with a constantly self-critical voice in your head, which I do, that part is attacking the part of you that deals with the addiction. And then you have the other part that is the hyper-control manager, which is dealing with your addiction. And the critic is berating you for your addiction. And all of the parts are at war. And I think one of the goals, Abby, is that letting the parts stop being at war and be at peace and take the role that is actually beneficial to you, because then that allows them to trust that the Self can lead, because right now no one’s leading. It’s just a bunch of waring parts. But when you get to the core Self, your Self knows how to heal. Your Self knows how to lead you. But it can’t, when all of the parts of you are at war. So I think it’s-
Glennon Doyle:
And not feeling heard.
Amanda Doyle:
Right, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
A good leader is one that sits at the head of the table and makes sure that everybody at the table is heard first and not suppressed and then makes the decision. But when you’re trying to pretend that your exile doesn’t exist, because the truth is they are all there. Even those bastards in your head that are like, “Don’t try anything. Don’t show up. Don’t whatever,” when you ask it, “Why are you saying that?,” it’s trying to protect you, because if we go out there, we’re going to get crushed. Like, “I’m trying to keep you safe, honey.” It’s like you have to hear from everybody, because they all have your intentions. They just might not have the wisest mind that you at the head of the table do.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Just for everyone listening, I think what’s really important, and we can do some exercises here, is just starting to use the language of parts, like managers, exiles, firefighters, Self. I know for me when I started even as a psychologist, I was like, “What the heck is this brilliant man talking about? It’s just a lot.” It almost doesn’t matter, as much as the foundation of there are parts of me. And I can start to relate to parts of me, because the beauty… As soon as you say to yourself something like, “Oh, hi, jealousy. Oh, hi insecurity,” you are doing something massive in your body. The jealousy is no longer all of you, because you are in a relationship with it. You have just assumed CEO seat by saying hello to it. And it’s going to be in the room. Jealousy has a role at the table. Anger has a role at the table.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Listening and understanding someone’s role does not mean they get to dictate decisions. But as soon as you do that, visually, I always picture it… I say this to myself all the time, when I wake up with a panic thought at 4:30 in the morning, and I’m like, “I got to start working.” And I do. I put my hand on my heart, “Hi, anxiety, you old friend. It’s you again.” There’s a humor to it. “You must be worried about something. You think I always have to write and write and get something done. I get it. You’re trying to help me. And even for me, this is early.” I often say to my body, “I’m not taking your first offer. This is your first offer is 4:30.”
Amanda Doyle:
That’s good.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
“And I’m just going to ask you to step back. I’m safe. And even if I don’t fall back asleep, I’m just going to stay in bed a little longer,” versus the panic. It really does take over my body. I am not present. That part of me, whatever you want to call it, exile. It’s a lot of lingo. I think it’s fascinating. Anyone, I think go get Internal Family Systems. No, I don’t get some type of kickback. I just think it’s really an amazing thing. I wish I did, but I don’t. But just starting to talk to yourself. And it’s going to sound so cheesy, but my five-year-old at night talks to his worry boy before he goes to sleep.
Amanda Doyle:
His worry boy? Is that what you said?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
His worry boy. And I’m always like, if there’s one thing that’s going to make you quote “do well” in life, it’s knowing this stuff when you’re young, because he has worried thoughts. And so every night for a period, we’d say… He can say this himself, “Hi, worry boy. You’re a part of me and not all of me. And you get loud at night. And I also have happy thoughts boy. He’s there. He’s just not as loud at night. And I’m safe, and I hear you. And it’s okay to go to bed.” It’s profound. It is so powerful.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And kids eat it up. I mean I can do a whole exercise. I’m obsessed. It’s so many parents teaching your kid about perfect girl or perfect boy or perfect kid, whatever your kid identifies at, in terms of perfectionism and how they relate to their homework, and how to anticipate perfect voice coming up at the hard math problem, and what we say to perfect voice, and how when that voice steps back, we might be able to find, “This is hard. And you’ll love this,” an I-can-do-hard-things voice. That is a part of you also that’s often crowded out by perfect voice. So I think IFS to everyone, it can just be a kind of an entrance into the language of parts.
Glennon Doyle:
Pod squad, just the importance of this is what we talk about with mindfulness. It’s what we talk about everything. It’s giving a picture in your mind, or your kid’s mind or whoever, of what you are, which is a table. And you want to picture your wisest most beautiful… We’re talking like Oprah is at the head of the table, some kind of wise, in-their-body, benevolent… That is you. You and your-
Amanda Doyle:
You are Oprah. That’s the takeaway.
Glennon Doyle:
… Self is the wisest you could ever imagine, the calmest, most grounded, most okay. You’re at the head. But the part of being human is that there are a bunch of parts at your table. And what Dr. Becky is saying, when she says, “Hi, anxiety. Hi, perfect boy. I see you,” in that moment, she is creating the space to know that she is not that part. If I am the one observing the part, I immediately am not the part. I’m Oprah at the head of my table. So I have suddenly shifted my consciousness from, “I’m anxious. I’m scared. I’m jealous.” Oh, no, no, no, no, “Hi, anxiety. Hi, jealousy. I’m fucking Oprah. I’m fucking Oprah.” And so I am going to listen to all of you, because I know you’re my advisors. And I know you have things to say. And then I am going to bestow upon us what we are going to do next.”
Amanda Doyle:
And we are going to live our best life, because we are Oprah.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And everyone gets a car!
Glennon Doyle:
And you get a car, anxiety!
Amanda Doyle:
Anxiety gets a car!
Glennon Doyle:
And you get a car. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Anger gets a car. Abandoned me gets a car.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so beautiful.
Abby Wambach:
I just want to ask a quick question just to break it down to more granular, simpler, because I know for me this feels like a lot.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Love you, guys. You’re very smart. But I think it’s important to kind of understand how do we determine the parts? Because for me, I might not be able to, in the moment, like, “Oh, that’s jealousy.” What are some exercises we can do to figure out what the parts are sitting at the table with us with Oprah?
Glennon Doyle:
So good.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
I actually think the most practical way too. I always same thing, just like, “What’s pragmatic? What’s easiest here?” Lowest lift is to actually start to learn the qualities that let you know you’re in Self, because the other moments we’re probably noticing a part. So I said to Dick many times, I was like, “How did you get all the words to represent Self to start with a C? How did the lexicon work for you that way? You are a magician. Okay?” Because the qualities of Self are the following, all of which begin with C. And those are compassion, connectedness, curiosity, clarity, calm, confidence, courage, and creativity.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Now I know if you’re like all of us on this side, you’re like, “I’ve never experienced all those things at once.” So when you’re reactive, when you have one of those moments where it’s not even like you’re… You’re like, “I just did something.” That’s what it often feels like when you noticed a part. Or my partner’s coming home, and you’re about to rage. You’re like, “Oh, am I confident and clear right now? Yeah, probably no, not exactly.” And when we act from a part, it is like… I know he talks about the orchestra. It’s like the violinist became the conductor. The violinist is important, but it’s not meant to be the conductor. The associate, who’s giving you input at the boardroom table, is not meant to be the CEO. It’s not to say you’re not really pissed at your partner for whatever you’re pissed at, but nobody I know feels great raging at someone.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
They feel good being like, “What am I angry at? Okay, I’m curious. I’m in a relationship with this anger. Huh? I’m noticing anger. What is it telling me? Oh, my partner said they’d be home for bath time, and once again I did the kids’ bath by myself. Yeah, I am angry about that. Okay. Knowing that, I don’t know. What am I looking for?” And this relates to attachment to. If I have learned that anger is allowed within an attachment, back from my earliest years, then I in Self can be in relationship with my angry part. If I learned, “Yeah, mm-mm, threat, threat, danger, danger… ” My family never differentiated between angry behavior, which came because I wasn’t yet able to regulate anger, but there was no differentiation between angry behavior and angry feelings. So I had to keep the feeling away, because it’s what led to the behavior in my mind, and I never learned skills. So just get out with the anger. Well, now when I’m angry, anger…
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
We can’t beat our feelings, so they’re there. So if we can’t erase them, then guess what? They never got attachment. I often think with a feeling that never got attachment, it never got cushioned in a loving way, not suppress it, never got a cushion. So when it comes up, it takes over my whole body. That part takes over the CEO’s seat. So I think a way to know if something is a part is when you’re like, “Yeah, nothing right now feels those C words.” And also we tend not to want to get to know that feeling. If it’s like, “Yeah, I want to keep that away. Yeah, no,” if I can’t be curious about it, then that lets me know that a part has taken over.
Abby Wambach:
Follow-up question: the anger comes up, in the world in which we want that Oprah-
Glennon Doyle:
Can I just explain what I mean by Oprah? I have never seen someone the way that she… I’m thinking of this literally. She sits at the head of a table. She is in complete presence. She is in complete openness and curiosity. She takes in everyone’s thing at the table with openness, curiosity, kindness. And then you can see her filtering it all out, and then she delivers what’s going to happen. And so she’s not trying to please anybody. She’s just in her groundedness, and then she decides. She’s like filters it all and decides. So that’s what I mean by it being Oprah at the head of the table.
Abby Wambach:
So the anger comes up. Is it the goal to just be in conversation with the anger as the feeling arises, allow your higher Self to control, or take over so to speak, and to not be outwardly angry? I’m curious. Feelings are happening. These parts are happening. What is the ultimate goal? Is it to have a conversation with it and not let it actually come out? Or is to let it come out? I’m confused by that.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So I think that’s such a good question. I think anger’s such a good example, because I think in our culture, if any of us are like, “Could you actually make a list of healthy ways to actually express anger or relational anger?”, I think a lot of us should be like, “I don’t know that many.” It’s a really hard feeling. It’s when our needs aren’t being met. It’s so primal. If I think about anger in general, we would want anger. If anger is about, “I am not getting my needs met,” I think that’s at our core. There’s something in the way of getting my needs met. Yeah, I then want to express that in a way that’s going to get closer to getting my needs met. So I really need my partner to come home earlier to help me at night. So I’m my very angry that they didn’t, totally make sense?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
What is my need? Well, my need is for them to get home earlier. And I think the hard part… And it’s like, “Oh man.” It’s like, “Well, what is the most effective way of actually getting my need met?”, not what’s just going to feel amazing to vomit out of my body. I know that, but it’s definitely probably not the same thing as effectiveness in actually getting my need met. And so our feelings, their function is data. They’re such important data for us. And then often, we like to use data in effective ways. So if we’re interested in effectiveness, then being kind of in conversation with your angry part would allow you to get closer to what your needs… And then you’d want to approach someone else in a way that adequately express what your needs were and actually have the highest likelihood of having them meet your needs the next time.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Can I give you an example, Abby, of the way I think about it?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
So you know how Glennon and I have this need for everything to be perfect, the hypervigilance of that person over there is doing something wrong or that’s going to upset us or the person in the restaurant or the person’s talking too loud on the plane and this thing that is the opposite of calm and confident. So these parts are frozen in time. So they are stuck at the time of the attachment injury, stuck at the time of whatever trauma or whatever is shamed out of you. So if that happens at five years old, you think you are five years old in that moment, and that you are as vulnerable now as you were then, that you’re living in this moment. It is as dangerous. The lack of this situation being perfect around me is as dangerous to me as it was when I was five. So that is the irrational, but very rational, protection that’s happening.
Amanda Doyle:
And so what you want to do is convince yourself, “This does not have to be perfect for me to be safe. I do not have to activate you, darling, darling part of me, that is trying to make this all safe around me right now, so that we will be safe right now, so that there won’t be an eruption from a family member, so that it won’t all go to shit around me. I don’t need that from you anymore. It is not dangerous like that anymore. We are safe. So I’m going to liberate you, part of me, to be inside of me what I need you to be now, because I don’t need that from you anymore.”
Glennon Doyle:
Taking away the burden.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And I think what Dick Schwartz says so… It’s so beautiful. It’s like how he understands people. He’s like, That part of you, that, yes, is kind of frozen at the age at which they were forced into their extreme role, they’ve done such a good job protecting you, they’ve never looked back at you to notice that you’re getting older. They’re outward facing to the world.” That’s what you do, if you protect someone from threat you. You’re not looking at them behind you, if you’re protecting your bear cub. You’re looking at everything else, but your bear cub. And so in that time, you haven’t noticed. And so there’s language really to say, “Hey, this might sound surprising to you. I’m 40 years old. I’m 50 years old. It’s 2023. I know. I know.”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And I don’t know if he says this. I always say this to my parts, and I love this language, “I want to thank you for your years of service. You’ve been so vital. And I don’t expect you to totally stand down. I’ll show you over time that I’m strong. I’m capable. I’m an adult. And I can get through a plane flight where there’s a little bit of chaos around.” It’s so… I don’t even know the word. Our parts, they truly receive that language. They’re waiting for that language.
Glennon Doyle:
And the person at the head of the table can even speak to the future.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
When I think about my eating disorder part, when I speak to that voice, that voice has my childhood best interest in mind. That voice is like, “Your appetite is not safe. You can’t get bigger. Your attachment will be threatened, if you eat too much, if you get bigger. I’m trying to keep you safe. And P.S.: the whole rest of your life that has been confirmed. It’s not just your original family. That your culture… I’m trying to keep you safe as a public figure woman. I’m trying to keep you safe from criticism. I’m trying to make you attractive to the world.” This voice has gotten louder and louder over time and sometimes the voice is right, in many, many ways.
Glennon Doyle:
And so the person at the head of the table can say, “We are so wise that actually I hear you. You’re right.” My Oprah at the table is not always saying to my part, “Oh, silly thing, that was what you needed when you were younger. But a grown woman doesn’t need that anymore,” because my wise voice knows that that’s not true. That actually in the culture we’re in right now, it is safer to have one specific kind of body, that it is safer to be a public woman and not have any signs of being human on your body. So my wise Oprah at the table is like, “Yes, we hear you. And that would be safer. And we’re still going to do something different, because we’re trying to make things different in the future. So just stick with me. I know what I’m doing, and we’re going to be really braver than we’ve ever been before.”
Abby Wambach:
Damn.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Hmm.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And I’ll keep checking in with you. Right, exactly. That’s right. That’s right. And our parts do have advice for us. Not all of it might be useful, or maybe the extremity, again, isn’t useful to act on and it’s entirely. But certainly, they have wisdom to listen to. I always picture one of my kids wanting my attention like, “Mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy,” And what they would do and how loud they would get and how mean they would get, if I just never listen to them.
Glennon Doyle:
That does not work. If you want somebody to quiet down, ignoring them is not the way to go. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
But that’s what we do. We lock them in the basement, and we say, “You’re a bad part. I’m going to focus on these other parts I have.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And you know, sister and Abby? That’s why I’m always like, “I need you to let weird Glennon to come. I need weird Glennon to come to the pod.” That’s my little exile self being like, “This manager shit.” That’s why I was so pissed when the freaking astrologist told me I was an Aries and not a Pisces, because I identify with my sensitive exile self. And I thought she was telling me I had to be a manager and an Aries all of a sudden. It’s like… Okay, now I’m getting really weird, so, Dr. Becky, can we take a few questions about Internal Family Systems? Let’s hear from Jessica.
Jessica:
Hi, my name is Jessica. So I have a 10-year-old son, who I adore, very smart, very personable, very sweet boy. But lately, he has been having issues with what my husband and I would call addiction to video games. He has been caught sneaking into our bedroom to steal our cell phones. He’s been caught hiding the Chromebook under his bed. We have tried all different methods, whether it’s taking things away or trying to talk it to death and nothing seems to be working. I listen to both Dr. Becky’s podcast and We Could Do Hard Things. I love you both, so any advice or help would be really wonderful.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So you are not alone. Okay, let me just say that. The devices that are designed to be addictive become addictive, right?
Amanda Doyle:
It’s shocking. It’s shocking, really.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
It is.
Amanda Doyle:
No one saw that coming.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
It is the truth. So I want to give a thought here that’s like an applied IFS. We don’t have to break down all those different parts. But here’s what I would say, and I think this is generalizable to everything with kids. Amanda, we were talking about this. When kids engage in, let’s just say, quote “undesirable behaviors”, things that legitimately we might want to shift them away from, like they shouldn’t lie to everyone’s face. It’s not great when they want to be friends with kids, who they have to bring candy to be friends with. It’s not great to go take the iPad from the room, 100% agree.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
We often go to convincing them out versus understanding why that thing happens or why even it’s working for them. It must be doing something for them and they must have a legitimate motivation, given that behavior is maintaining itself. And so I think in kind of an IFS way, we’re saying, “Let’s get to know that part,” before we have any type of connection capital to make space for a different part, who would make more responsible decisions.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So what would that look like? I think it would look like saying to your son, “Hey, I know we’ve been talking about this taking the iPad thing. And oh, no, no, no, no, you’re not getting punished today. You’re not getting yelled at. No, no, I’m taking a different approach. This might sound weird. You must really, really want that iPad. I know you’re a good kid, and I know we have certain rules. And there must be a moment where you want it, and then that want must get so big or I don’t even know that. It’s like it takes over you. And then that walks you to my room and finds it in the shelf and you climb up. And first of all, I understand that, because these things are really addictive, even to adults. I find myself on it at night, when I said I wouldn’t. And there must be something you’re looking for. I don’t know if it’s fun or maybe it’s friends or being able to talk about the thing at school, but actually let’s just spend today talking about that. And then I don’t know, we’ll figure out the other stuff another day.”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And so the part of him that’s going to steal the iPad now is no longer kind of encoded in continued aloneness and shame and punishment and blame, because you’re actually meeting it with understanding. And again, sometimes I feel like I hear parents’ questions, “But isn’t that saying that it’s okay? Or am I making it okay?” Understanding someone is not the same as endorsing something about something about someone. They’re just completely different things. And I think that we conflate them, which limits us in every relationship and politics and things much bigger than video games. We have to understand things about ourselves and about people, as a foundation to any type of change. And that’s the foundation you’d be setting.
Amanda Doyle:
As you’re talking, I’m not even thinking about kids. I’m thinking, “What are the parts like of me? What do you get out of saying that mean thing you always say to your husband? What is that? What are you needing from that?” I’m thinking of all these things I do all the time.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m just thinking about how much we pretend that stealing an iPad under your bed, and then we pretend that that’s something that’s terrible that we can’t understand. But we do that shit all the time. I just love the conversations with my kids that are like, “Oh my God, we are so weird. Why do we do these things?” And then if you can approach weird things with curiosity instead of shame, it’s just then you’re not afraid. You’re not banishing parts. You’re inviting them all to the table, and you’re inviting your kid to become that wise Self. Because if you’re discussing that part of you that’s doing it, you are not that part of you that’s doing it.
Amanda Doyle:
And you’re not alienating them and leaving them alone.
Glennon Doyle:
We all say we’re not going to be on our phones. This is literally the same.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
I think that’s right. Often I feel like I have this assumption, both that people are good inside, and that all of us would do all the things, if the conditions were hard enough. We would. “My kid lied to my face.” Okay, I would lie to someone’s face if the conditions were right and I felt whatever it was. Right?
Glennon Doyle:
For sure. I did it today. For sure I did today already.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Exactly. Yeah. So I think with our kids.. And again, there’s again a lot of distance. Probably when we see things in our kids that we never had any understanding of or curiosity about, when we were that age… “They stole the iPad,” and then we often make it… We always center, “They don’t respect me.” You think your kid couldn’t control getting the iPad, because they were thinking, “I don’t respect my dad. It’s true, so therefore I am going to take the iPad.” It’s centering ourselves. They had an impulse that they couldn’t control.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. Abby always says that. She’s like, “I don’t think they respect me.” I’m like, “Because they didn’t clean the sink? For sure, they’re just lazy.”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And it doesn’t mean there’s not a different intervention, because, again, the reason it’s important to unpack, “Why is my kid taking that iPad? Why is my kid stealing money and going to the concert when I said they, I don’t know, could do neither?”, well, if I understand… Let’s say it’s the iPad. That’s the most fun part of their day. That’s the part where they actually… I don’t know. Maybe they’ve been having a really hard time in math and school. They feel bad about themselves. And this is an escape. Now, that doesn’t mean I’m going to say to my kid, “Great, you can just have iPad time forever.” No, that’s not a great way to generate good feelings.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
But now I have a better understanding of how hard it is during the day for my kid. Now I have an understanding of what’s driving the behavior. And it’s like a leak. There’s a leak. Duct tape doesn’t stop the leak. You got to find where the leak is, and then you can actually intervene in a way where it’s not Whack-A-Mole, and then the problem is just popping up all over the place. You actually stopped the leak. It’s effective.
Amanda Doyle:
CC your marriage too, I mean everything you just said.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
A hundred percent, yes, easier said than done all.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, let’s hear from our next caller.
Speaker 7:
I’m so happy Dr. Becky is returning. There’s something that I have been kind of struggling with in a parenting aspect with my daughter, who is very empathetic and shy and sensitive. And when it comes to extracurriculars, she says she is nervous and scared, and she doesn’t want to do this or that. Or if we get involved in something, half the time then she says she doesn’t want to go, and she wants to stay home. I can relate. But I guess I’m wondering how much do I push to try to encourage her to do new things and try new things and find activities that work well for her, and how much do I sit back and let her emotions be known and trust her feelings. It’s kind of a difficult task, and she’s only five. But any advice would be great.
Abby Wambach:
Love this question.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
I love this question. And I think here’s a time when, to me the most powerful intervention in any of our relationships is just to say, “Am I asking myself the best question I could be asking?” A question dictates the path we walk down in our relationships with people, everything. So here, I think I find the question stressful. Do I push them to go or do I kind of sit back? And I think especially as we’re talking about IFS, there’s a different question. And I think it has a more obvious answer.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
If we don’t have an obvious answer, often we’re just asking ourselves the wrong question, instead of being hard on ourselves that we don’t.
Glennon Doyle:
Damn.
Abby Wambach:
Whoa.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s good.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Do I get to know the part of my kid who’s so hesitant and learn more about her? Or do I not get to know the part of her that’s hesitant and do I not learn more about her? And again, it’s like, “What? Becky, why would you even ask that question? Obviously it’s the first.” Great, now we have a question. And then I’ll pause. But then we could go from there.
Abby Wambach:
Geez.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so freaking good. Do I get to know the part of my kid that’s angry? Do I get to know the part of my kid that is introverted? Do I get to know, instead of what do I do about changing that part.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yes. Yeah, that part again, once it’s known, my child in that then more somewhat balanced state is going to make the decisions that’s right. And then we all know, whether my kid does after school activities at five… We know it, even though it’s anxiety increasing to all of us. Me too, I’m not above that. That’s less important over the course of their life than whether they get to know this part of themselves. So just to make it another level more concrete, that’s what I always need too.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
I might say to my kid, “Hey, I’m thinking about how you love soccer. And I’m also thinking about how you know the kids in class do soccer after school, and you’ve told me you don’t want to do the soccer class. Oh, oh, let me just be clear. You don’t have to do it. Soccer, no soccer, it doesn’t make a difference. I just want to know. Let’s think. You’re like, “I love soccer. I love soccer. I love soccer. Oh, is it like, “I love soccer. Oh, oh class, I don’t want to”? Or is it like, “I love soccer. I kind of want to do the class, but I don’t know if I want to the class. What would happen if I took the class?”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And again, I don’t expect a five-year-old… My five-year-old’s not saying, “Thank you for the profound differentiation. I would act it out this way.” They’re not going to say that, okay? But then we fool ourselves to saying that it doesn’t matter. I ask my kids deep questions, never to get an answer, but so they start to ask themselves deep questions. As you know as an adult, it’s the questions you ask, not the answers you get that help you out.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So then what I might say another time, I might say, “Oh, sometimes there’s a part of me that wants to do something. And this is so weird. And at the same time there’s a part of me that doesn’t want to do something. Is that making any sense?”
Glennon Doyle:
It does make sense. Dr. Becky.
Amanda Doyle:
It does, Mom. Yes, Mom.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you for the profound differentiation.
Amanda Doyle:
The same part of me that wants to make all the plans and then really, really wants everyone to cancel them.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yeah. And then I always hear, “And then what?” Okay, parents who in general have a and-then-what question, I think it’s the best trick. Whenever you’re saying, “And then what?,” the answer’s always, “And that’s enough,” always. And then what? And that’s enough. I mean I’m not so rigid, maybe not always, but it’s a good thing to play around with. Let me say that. It’s a good framework. This is how I always end in those, “Ah, that’s tricky.”
Abby Wambach:
Period.
Glennon Doyle:
Love it, because it’s the exploration. We’re not always trying to get to some fixed outcome.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And then you’re like, “What was my question? Are they going to do it or not? Wait, that’s not my question. Yeah, I totally am getting to know that part a little bit. Oh, I guess I did my job. It’s kind of a weird feeling, doesn’t feel like how I usually think about it. But I guess I did that. I can now feel good about myself and go to bed.”
Abby Wambach:
I think it’s so important as a parent too. We do so much projection on our kids, that it’s like, “Decide one way or the other.” I know for me indecisiveness is a trigger. And so why would I consider my five-year-old child to be decisive about life? They’re freaking young. My 14-year-old, I get so triggered by our kids being indecisive, because to me that was-
Amanda Doyle:
You should listen to the attachment episode, Abby.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, that was an attachment issue that I had that was a safety mechanism in place that I had to put for myself.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Maybe also, indecisiveness often means there’s multiple parts of us speaking up. It’s not a thing being… I don’t think that’s a personality trait. I’ve never really thought about this before, so just formulating this thought now. But I don’t think indecisiveness is a trait, as much as maybe we weren’t ever given the space to feel multiple things at once and pay attention to each and see where we landed.
Glennon Doyle:
I know you’re just formulating that on the spot, but I think it kind of hit-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Sorry.
Glennon Doyle:
… the nail on the head over here.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And if you think about our kids, again, your kids are older than my kids, but still they have a lot more of their lives, where they’re adulthood… Taking time before… I don’t know. You’re given some job offer, and you’re like, “This isn’t what I want.” And you kind of know it, but you’re like, “This is so much money,” and whatever the other things. And everyone else would think this is impressive. To be able to say to yourself, “There’s a part of me that’s drawn to this job offer. And there’s a part of me that kind of feels no.” It’s not even that the right decision is to say no. That’s just an outcome. But we know that the process of getting to the best outcome probably involves being aware of both parts. So you’re actually helping a kid with the things that actually lead to so much adaptation in adulthood.
Abby Wambach:
Damn it all to hell.
Amanda Doyle:
Let’s hear from Cindy.
Cindy:
This is Cindy. My question is, how do you parent a young adult? I was a structured parent, when they were children and apparently stricter than I realized. Now that they’re older, they tell me. But you know what? It worked out. It was okay. They’re good kids, but now they’re 24 and 27. And I need to change my procedure of parenting. My husband has rolled along just fine and loves this age. But I’m still trying to see if they’re getting to the dentist. And you know how it is.
Glennon Doyle:
We do. We do, Cindy. We do.
Amanda Doyle:
Cindy called it a procedure.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
A friend of mine-
Amanda Doyle:
She said my procedure of parenting. That might be a clue.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
A friend of mine recently, this is amazing, is like, “I did something big. Finally, I called my dad. And I told him,” she’s my age, “‘I no longer need you to set up a car when I go to the airport.'”
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Participants:
Oh…
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And she’s like, “I can do that.” She’s like, “But I had to really say that.” And this reminds me really, Cindy, of what you’re saying. And I think this connects so many things, parts and attachment. And Cindy, I really mean this. It sounds like love for you was connected, and hear me out here, with control and a lot of involvement. And I don’t mean that as like, “Oh, controlling, it’s bad.” No, it must have felt like, “I am giving my kids something.” You say strict. But strict and control can be pretty tied together. And then one of the things, as our kids get older, is they want, and hopefully want, more and more independence. And then if we parented them, and kind of even in some ways defined the love and attachment with them through control of their behaviors, of their actions, then…
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
I actually think I’m going to say the most generous way or most positive version. We have an opportunity to get to know them and love them in a totally different way. And I think the way this even connects to IFS is, I would think Cindy, it would help a lot, and my guess is it would help outside parenting too, to make it a little bit of a goal to just get to know the control part, the part that wants to do for or maybe criticize or whatever you say was stricter and no longer works as they get older. Because I think as they get older, and if things have been a little trickier, it’s easy for us to be really critical of that, like “Oh, come on, Cindy. You know your kids are older. They don’t need you to book their car. They don’t need you to criticize what they’re wearing. They don’t like that. And you know that, but yet this stuff keeps happening.”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
As long as we alienate parts, they have to take over our body to get our attention, which means they dictate what we do. We don’t even want that. So actually, not in a moment with them… I think too often when we want to change, we expect ourselves to find the new skill in the heated moment. It’s really unfair to ourselves. It’d be like someone who never took a foul shot being at the end of game seven and being like, “I’m going to make this foul shot.”
Abby Wambach:
Basketball reference.
Glennon Doyle:
I got it. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Got it? You right? Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
I was thinking of parachutes. You’re suddenly raising an adult, is a new thing, and it’s like someone pushes you out of the plane-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
It’s a new thing.
Glennon Doyle:
… and is like, “I’m going to tell you how to do it on the way down.” You don’t ever get to practice when conditions are not terrifying.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Right. We have to learn skills, when we don’t need them, when our body’s calm, to have them activate in our body when we do need them. And so I would spend some time. It doesn’t have to be a ton of time.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Say, “Hi, part of me that’s used to being more involved in the day-to-day. Hi, part of me that’s controlling. You’re not a bad part. You played a role. And I know the whole time you thought you were doing what was best. And my kids are giving me a lot of input that they want me to interact with them in a different way. And I’m going to ask you to time-to-time step back. I hear you. You probably have messages maybe I still need to know. Yes, I want to still make sure they have food or whatever the things are that feel important to maintain. And you’re going to probably feel uncomfortable and speak up and get loud, when I start to do some different things. That’s okay. I know you’re trying to help and we’re going to figure this out.”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And actually I’d like to be really concrete. I’d be like, “I’m going to go to my phone right now. And I’m going to set an alarm. And it’s going to be every day or every three days at 9:00 AM, because I’m always free at 9:00 AM. And it’s going to say, “Talk to controlling part.” Just put in the time. Yeah, say like 30 seconds. And then what happens over time is you’ve actually made space in your body to intervene differently.
I’d also suggest actually talking to your kids about this. “Hey, I want to be totally honest with you. I feel like a lot of the ways I parented you was with a heavy hand and a lot of control. And I’m sure at times that didn’t feel good”-
Glennon Doyle:
I’ve done that.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
… “to you as a kid, but it seems that I know it’s not feeling good at age 24 and 27. And when you see that in me know that I’m working on it. I am. It’s not going to be perfect. But at least if you know I’m working on it, maybe you could say, ‘Mom, Mom, you’re doing that thing. Could you not?'” You know?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And as someone who’s also in this phase, I would say to Cindy that it is something also that speaks to worthiness for me. It’s when you have been that person at the table with your child for their whole life, and the way that you have established your worthiness as a human being and in relation to that person is being a loud voice at the table, becoming the parent of an adult, in many ways, is being banished from the table for a while.
Abby Wambach:
And your volume gets turned down.
Glennon Doyle:
And if you’ve done it well. And so, the thing about going from a director of your kid’s life to being a consultant, which is what it feels like, is that, in order to be a consultant, you must be consulted.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay? So if our role is to be a consultant in our kids’ lives, if we are not being consulted, we are still being a controller, which means that is terrifying, because there’s this phase of time where you have to carry on, change your center of worthiness to your own life. And then this weird thing happens, which I have noticed recently, that if they see you living your own table with your own wise Self, then they start asking for your consultation, because they see you as having what they want. But there’s this period where you just have to be okay not being at the table and not being in the room and wait for them to come to you. And that is hard. And the only way to survive that time is to shift your center of worthiness to your own life.
Abby Wambach:
Damn.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And… And I would say when you’re not consulted, it’s also powerful to know you’ll have an anxiety part come up. That’s what makes you call your kid, and to know, “Okay, so I can also get to know that. I’m just going to start to watch out for the, “But I have to!”, whatever it is. And I’m going to make friends with her too. She’s used to trying to compel me to do the thing I used to do. So as you change a role, I think often we say to ourselves, I want to change. And then we kind of say some version of, “But I don’t want to feel X. I want to go out with my friends and not feel guilty that I’m not putting my kids down.” No, we want to go out with our friends and learn to tolerate feeling guilty about not putting our kids down. That’s actually much more compelling, because now I can do, that instead of not.
Glennon Doyle:
And if worse comes to worse during a banishment and not being consulted time, I started loving my kid during meditation. I would sit, do meditation, and then send all the love that I could from my little bedroom. I know that sounds weird Glennon shit, but it worked. I felt like we might have the best relationship we’ve ever had now, with me just getting loving him-
Amanda Doyle:
We’re really getting along swimmingly.
Glennon Doyle:
We’re crushing it, understanding each other so well, not missing each other, pure love.
Amanda Doyle:
Spending so much time together.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
And also something that happens is you tell me sometimes that you’re feeling sad that the kids are getting older. And I have to keep reminding you, we are building a beautiful life together you and me.
Glennon Doyle:
I know. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
And that’s important to remember.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, that’s right. Pod squad, we love you. If this was a Trojan horse for you, which I know it was, please go check out all of Dr. Becky’s work.
Abby Wambach:
Fucking love her work. I love you Dr. Becky. Thank you for coming on with us.
Glennon Doyle:
I know. Thank you so much.
Amanda Doyle:
Your Instagram is drbecky @goodinside.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
@goodinside, Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
@goodinside. Thank you. Y’all, we can do hard things, like figure out the mystery that we are. We’ll catch you back here next time. Bye.
Glennon Doyle:
We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Audacy, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn’t, don’t worry about it. It’s fine.