Tracee Ellis Ross: How to Make Peace in Your Own Head
January 10, 2023
Glennon Doyle:
Hi. Tracee Ellis Ross. You’re all welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. I’m going to really rush through the intro because today we have one of my favorite people. Is that not true?
Abby Wambach:
It is very true.
Glennon Doyle:
On this entire planet.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Tracee Ellis Ross is an award-winning actress and producer, best known for her roles in ABC’s award-winning comedy series, Blackish and Girlfriends, for her role as Rainbow Johnson in Blackish. As a comedic leading actress, Ross won the Golden Globe Award in 2017, as well as nine NAACP Image Awards. She was nominated for five Emmys and two Critics Choice Awards.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God.
Glennon Doyle:
Ross is the CEO and founder of Pattern, a hair care brand for the curly, coily and tight textured masses. Ross recently executive produced and narrates Hulu’s The Hair Tales, amazing. A docu-series about black women, beauty, and identity through the distinctive lens of black hair. Upcoming, Ross will be producing a 10 episode podcast. I Am America, which aims to break through the noise during this divided time in our country. Did you know this?
Abby Wambach:
I did not.
Glennon Doyle:
In our country-
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I’m so proud of that, I can’t wait to share that.
Glennon Doyle:
I can’t wait.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. I honestly can’t wait for you to hear it.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. It’s so funny listening… You know what’s funny about it? It’s funny to listen to a friend read your stuff. Because it has nothing to do with our connection.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And so it’s funny, like in my birthday when my friends had the microphone, I was so tickled.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what we want to talk about. First of all, we decided we’re going to do this interview differently than we ever do interviews.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
Because we don’t want it to be like, “This is your life,” thing. Because what I told my sister and Abby is that I just thought of this category of person, but you are my, “I’ll have what she’s having” person.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
When you look at someone and you’re with them and you spend time with them and you see who they are in the world and you’re just like, “I will have what she’s having.”
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I will have that, please.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And I just truly find you to be one of the most unique and wise and magnificent women I know. And it’s-
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Oh my God, how kind.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, most people are one thing or another thing. You just kind of pick something and go with it. But you are so raw and real and also glamorous.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re so powerful and poised, but also very transparent and tender. It’s just all the things at once. And so now I get to have you for an hour and do what I’ve always want to do, which is I need you to tell me everything you know. Okay?
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And we kind of did that in my old house on the couch.
Glennon Doyle:
I know, that’s so good.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
We kind of did that. Amanda, I’m so happy to meet you as well. It’s like crazy. Your voice is a part of my world. I haven’t had time with you.
Amanda Doyle:
Likewise.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. So it’s lovely to meet you.
Abby Wambach:
It’s really wonderful to meet you.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
This is fun.
Glennon Doyle:
It is fun.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
First of all, what you just said about me, it’s so interesting to have mirrored back a version of yourself that is actually the version you want to be. And to get to a place in an age where it’s happened a…. There’s a couple of different times in my life and I go, “Oh, okay. Despite what it feels like sometimes in this dangerous neighborhood that is my mind…” Sometimes it’s a great place and sometimes I don’t go in there alone. Despite sort of some of that inner dialogue and that really bad story that happens in my head, every once in a while I catch glimpses of the way I’m actually presenting out in the world. And it’s a nice moment of validation and encouragement of like, “Okay, you’re doing okay. You’re moving in the right direction.”
Glennon Doyle:
I think so Tracee.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
You are.
Glennon Doyle:
If you’re not, we’re all fucked. If you’re not, we’re going to stop trying. So can you explain to my sister and, because I’ve already talked to Abby about this ad nauseam, but what you talked to me about cauldron sisters?
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Talk to me about what the cauldron is.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
So I have this theory that souls are made in bunches. And I don’t know, mother nature, someone, somewhere, some beautiful gathering of people, they have these big cauldrons that they make people in, that they make souls in. And it’s souls, honestly, not people. And they’re like, “Okay, this one’s going to have, I don’t know, a little bit of heartbreak, but a lot of joy.” And I don’t know. “And these are going to be people who have really open hearts and whatever.” And then they go when they’re cooked, when the little veggies are cooked and they’re the souls, they sprinkle them out through time. And some of them are like, they were back in 1816, and one goes in a dog and one goes in a lizard and one goes in a Abby and one goes in a Glennon and one goes into Amanda and they’re like all over the place.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And then you don’t know when or how or what’s going to bring you to another cauldron, fellow sister or whatever, whomever. But you meet someone and you’re like, “Oh, we’re from the same soup.”
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God. This is exactly correct.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Right? It’s one of those things where you’re just like, “I don’t know what it is. Why do I feel like I’ve known you forever?” It’s like, Oh, we have the same map, we have the same ingredients. And although the time period we’re from, or the town we’re from or whatever, there was nothing that you would think would make our lives match. Somehow, we come from the same ingredients.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you know what those things are?
Tracee Ellis Ross:
That’s interesting. I really find that I am from the same soup of people who… Because I say this, there’s some people where there’s a lot of matches on the external things, and then there’s the people that it’s just like the inner roadmap is just similar. The things that soothe and comfort and the willingness to have the inside conversation on the outside, the deep conversation, the transparency. And the thing that’s interesting is sometimes, I mean, we don’t see each other all the time, but I’ve called you in tangly moments and I’ve run into you on planes. And somehow there’s a connection that is beyond the circumstances of our life. And so maybe the people from my cauldron also, I do think back in the day, I would’ve been certainly burned at the stake.
Glennon Doyle:
Totally.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Definitely. Definitely a witchy lady.
Glennon Doyle:
I know. I kind of think our cauldron is literal. I think it’s a literal…
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It might be.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It really might be. We might actually be out of a steaming cauldron.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Oh, I love it so much.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. I always say that when you hear those old stories about the women that were burned at the stake because of their beliefs and their feelings and their instincts and their intuition and their deep soul calling. I read their description and I’m like, “Huh, that sounds like a really great lady.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Every damn time.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. I’m like, “That sounds like someone I would really want to be friends with.”
Glennon Doyle:
Every time you hear of a witch, you think, Cauldron sister.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I think that’s my sis.
Glennon Doyle:
Speaking of, so Abby and I were freaking lucky enough to be at your recent 50th birthday celebration of life. It was so freaking beautiful.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
It was a cauldron of your people.
Abby Wambach:
It was.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It was. And I really appreciate you guys coming out of the house, because I know for me and for you, that’s not an easy thing.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I would do anything for love, Tracee. I would even do that.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I literally, I’m one of those people that I’m like, “Yeah, I would love to go, but do I really want to leave the house?”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I’m always thinking, “Oh, I wish I wanted to go.”
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Oh, that’s the best. That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right.
Glennon Doyle:
So I have to tell you, we were there for maybe 10 minutes when maybe six people had come up to us and introduced themselves to us as your best friend. Okay?
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
I just started… Now, that’s what I do. I do an interviews, I just say, I’m Glennon Doyle. I’m Tracee Ellis Ross’s best friend. But it was amazing how many people were so… You’re just beloved to people. One woman told us that you were the only person who was in her delivery room delivering her twins. And she told us this next to her husband. I kept thinking, “Oh.”
Tracee Ellis Ross:
He was on a business trip.
Abby Wambach:
Oh.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
She was-
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
She was…yeah,
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
She was on hospital rest with her twins. She had to be in the hospital, hooked up to things, and he happened to go for a 24 hour, he literally had to go somewhere for a work trip. And so I was on call and I got the call.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And I was right there. And then I switched off. And then when he arrived, but I was the first one to hold them.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Philly and Clover. And it was really magical, I have to say. The doctor actually said, because they put the little curtain up and the doctor was like, “You can actually sit down. You don’t have to watch.” I was like, “No, I’m fine.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I was like, “I’m fine.”
Amanda Doyle:
“Actually, can you scoot over a little bit? Your just blocking my view.”
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. “You’re blocking my view. I’m so sorry.” It was amazing. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
You have described yourself as a barnacle on your good friend’s lives. I just love that image so much that you insist upon and allow yourself to be a barnacle. Talk to us about that.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah, there’s a really interesting thing. I am single. I have been single. I’ve been single for a very long time. I have had many wonderful ins and outs of things, but no one stuck to the pan. And as a result, I get to curate my family, my chosen family around me. And I don’t think I realized the gift of that until I’ve started to get older. But my friend Samira, she’s the one that coined that barnacle phrase. And-
Glennon Doyle:
She did a toast. She did that beautiful toast.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
She did the toast. Yeah. So Samira, I met when I was 22 at Mirabell Magazine when I went to work as an intern in the fashion department there. And she was also an intern. She’s now the editor-in-chief of Harper’s Bazaar.
Glennon Doyle:
What?
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. We’ve been through all these journeys together. And really, it’s just the best metaphor, because it’s like you think of a barnacle, I keep thinking of those people that are chowed with scraping the barnacles off the bottom of the boat that don’t want to go, and they’ve made home there and then they shackle the other barnacles and they’re attached to the boat and making a life on a thing that’s not really where they’re supposed to be, because it’s supposed to be on a rock, not a boat.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And that’s what I feel like. I feel like I’m on the back of Samira’s butt, just like, “I got you girl. You can’t even reach me if you try and scrape me off.” I remember someone saying once, “I tried to get rid of that relationship, but it was like gum on your shoe. There’s always residue of it somewhere.” And it’s the best residue. I mean, the history that occurs over… So Monica and Samira were the two that gave that back and forth speech together. And Monica and I met in college. I was 17, we were both 17. Our boyfriends were best friends. And they’re long gone.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Wow. That’s…
Tracee Ellis Ross:
They’re long gone.
Glennon Doyle:
They were not barnacles.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Nope. They were not barnacles.
Glennon Doyle:
Is she swimming.
Amanda Doyle:
They were like the people with the brush. And you’re like-
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yes, exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
Good luck with that.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Good luck with that buddy. Yeah. So Monica 17, Samira when I graduated from college and was interning, I met her at 22. I’m 50 now. So these are long run situations. And Monica’s an only child, so I’m the sister. I remember her son, we were together somewhere and there’s a video of it’s fantastic. I’m sitting on Monica’s lap or she’s sitting on my lap and he was like, “What are you guys doing? That’s weird. And Monica said, this is what people do that love each other.”
Abby Wambach:
Oh.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
“This is what it looks like, kid. Get used to it, because this is it.”
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
God, I love it.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. So barnacle, I’ll be there on there. What was that Friends song? I’ll be there for you.
Glennon Doyle:
Be there, for you. I only hear it six times a day. So.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I just love that idea of it be it being okay to be stubbornly stuck to someone. Because I think so many of us are afraid of being a burden and I love the claiming of that.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I absolutely am afraid of being a burden. I think one of the things, I can’t remember who said this to me, that, “Not one friend or one person has to be all things to you at all times.” Which is really helpful because I come from some wiring and information that might have told me something a little bit confused.
Glennon Doyle:
Not me. So my messages were very clear and-
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah, really clear. I’m not unpacking any of this as an adult.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
No, no. Patriarchy didn’t teach me nothing.
Glennon Doyle:
No. So what do you mean?
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Well, so we go back to this model that you’re sold, that not only are we sold it, but we are fed it and we have to drink it and it’s everywhere. And if you’re not careful, you actually think it’s true. And it’s the only bit of news for you. Which is that my job as a woman is to learn to be choosable. Having nothing to do with who I am, what makes my heart sing, floats my boat, makes me feel safe, makes me feel comfortable, makes me feel good, makes me feel powerful, makes me feel smart. Any of those things. But really it’s more about how I might be seen, so that I might be chosen so that my life could mean something as a chosen woman who then gets to have a child and then be a mother and do that for a child.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
So our culture sells us this and there’s nothing wrong with that journey, but if it’s a chosen journey, as opposed to the one that you think is going to make you worth anything. And then everything starts to fall into that messaging. And then if you’re a black woman, there’s like a whole other blah, blah, blah. There’s so many different versions of that. But that’s like that overarching thing as a woman. And then your friendships fall into that hole too. So if you haven’t been chosen for a guy, then you’re going to fill all that God size hole and all those different things with a friend, and then you become the best friend. And then it just gets all real tangled and real confusing.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I’ve been grateful enough to have found places where there are eons of tools and different ways to unpack that crazy messaging, make sense of it in a way that actually gives me a shot at genuine happiness and a robust life that’s actually mine. And it’s like a daily reprieve. Some days are better than others. Some days the old messaging comes in and sweeps in and I’ve got a really nice matching story that goes with it of my unlovability, and that narrative that just kind of travels along with it. And if I’m not careful and go into that thinking alone, I get stuck there and then you come out. But that was a long winded way of saying…
Abby Wambach:
It was beautiful.
Glennon Doyle:
A lot.
Abby Wambach:
I want to follow up really quick. How do you not go into your own mind? Or thinking alone? What does that look like?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, what are your strategies?
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Friendships, I have practices of healing and support that I lean towards, therapy. Some of which I keep sacred and private, some of those you know, but I don’t share them necessarily publicly. But friendship has been the biggest. And the willingness to be completely transparent and to be able to call people when I am on the floor, whether it’s metaphorically or physically on the floor. But in my mind, I have been floored, which happens often. I can’t remember, I think it’s friendship, the tools that tether me. This is actually something I got from you. Tether me to what I like best about my life. Which is the basic things.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
My favorite part of my life is my life. I love all the stuff, but I really like making my bed in the morning or doing laundry or making my food or taking the garbage out. Just the basics that really tether me to my own humanity and my own sense of self. And being able to show up and be of service and all of those things. I have so many different tools that keep me out of my… Honestly my mind is a wonderful place. It gets dangerous when I get connected to the really bad horror story that I have been stitching together since I was young. And somehow if I fall back into that groove, it is so dangerous up there. And then everything’s colored by the wrong information. Everything.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It’s like our minds are such… I mean yours, especially magical things come out of it that are unbelievable not of this world.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And then-
Glennon Doyle:
And that’s when you’re in charge of it. When you give it a job. Yes. When it gives you a job, when you haven’t directed it, no good.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It’s like when I haven’t directed it, that’s an interesting distinction. I don’t know. Sometimes I don’t know what it is that starts it. Because sometimes it’s not connected the way I think it is. It could be two days ago, I was with somebody who started me being afraid about something and then somehow that fear starts to snowball and then it starts reaching into other areas.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Once I start getting afraid, you could just start with a little anxiety once I… And I think I’ve shared this with you. I’m one of these people that I don’t know what, I don’t know how this happened, but I don’t get scared of stuff until after. I’m a girl that jumps off a cliff. Right? I’m like, “Oh my God, let’s do it. This is the scariest thing in the world. I’m going to do it. I’m going to get organized, I’m going to do this. I’m going to make this list. I’m going to do my research. I’m going to make sure I’m rehearsed. I’m going to make sure I know what I’m wearing, how I’m doing it, who’s going to be there, where I do this.”
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And then I go and I jump off the cliff and up there and I’m like, “I’m flying, I’m flying off the cliff. I’m fine. It’s so good. It’s everything I wanted it to be. This is the best cliff I’ve ever been off. Oh. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God.” And then I land and then I’m like, “What the fuck did I just do? Who would do that? Why would you do that?”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
“Oh my God, you’re so dumb. This is actually evidence. Put that in the fire of unlovability. That is going to roar. We’re going to make sure that we go back through every single thing that you did with a fine tooth comb and we’re going to prove to you that you are exactly the most unlovable, stupid, humiliating person in the world. How could you ever? You are filled with shame, you are riddled with it.” And then that’s what happens on the next day. It’s out of control. It’s like out of control.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh shit.
Abby Wambach:
Like a risk hangover. Wow.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah, it’s a risk hangover. And then what’s crazy is, in that state, someone could say, “Oh my God, that was so amazing.” They could say one thing and I can hear that they were covering, they were telling me the part they liked.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
But then it’s my job to figure out all the things that I did wrong that they didn’t like.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And the truth is, some of that is an ace in my deck. Right? Because I’m not going to make a mistake twice, I’ll tell you that. Some of it’s an ace in my deck, but when left unchecked, without compassion and tenderness and kindness, and when I’m alone with it.
Amanda Doyle:
Gentle, gentle.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Gentle, gentle, that’s one of my favorites. Give it twice. And then I have another friend who always says to me, “Give yourself a thousand breaks. And when those are done, give yourself a thousand more.”
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And I’m much better at that as I’ve gotten older. One of the things I learned from Pema Chodron that was the most, not that I know her right, just.
Glennon Doyle:
From her books.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
From her books and material.
Amanda Doyle:
But she’s walking around going, Hi, I’m Pema Chodron. I’m Tracee Ellis Ross’s best friend.
Glennon Doyle:
Best friend.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Listen. That’s exactly the way I feel, by the way, Glennon and Abby, when people found out that you… They were like, “Wait, you’re friends with them?”
Abby Wambach:
Oh.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It was amazing. I was like, yeah, that’s where they’re… Yeah, we’re best friends. What? You didn’t… Yeah. I don’t talk about my… But yeah, we’re friends. But one of the things I learned from my dear friend Pema, was if I can’t take the information in, there’s times when it’s not the time for me to look back. And I can wait until I can actually look back constructively, and not in a way that’s going to create another wound.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And more wound. And I’m learning as I’ve gotten older to be deliberate about my aftercare. So I had a plan the day after my birthday.
Glennon Doyle:
What was it?
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It involved going somewhere where I could have proper support and be a part of a community that supports me in that way. And I gave myself the day, I left for Cabo the next day. So I had all day to look through and make sure I felt okay about it. I have to see it back for myself to hold it in a way that it actually remains. And one of the things I do with my therapist is before something, we now ask the question, “How do you want to feel after?”
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And what do I need to put in place to support myself in the after? And I’m such an independent person. One of the things I really am not good at is I think I’m good and I need to better plan being not alone. Because I’m always, I like to go places alone, but I need the partnership in it. And so it’s really interesting.
Abby Wambach:
You just gave us a to-do list on how to support people who have events or situations that might be a big deal. And it to work through how it was, and also to take care of yourself post. Because going out of the house is a thing.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It’s a thing. And it’s more of a thing now, post pandemic.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
A lot of that stuff got kicked back up for me.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Did you feel like the birthday would be vulnerable because so many people were there that you loved? How did you decide you want to feel after it?
Tracee Ellis Ross:
One of the things, my mom loves a celebration. She just, since we are… My mom loves Christmas, so I’m a child that came from celebration. Celebration for the birthday. Birthdays were just… It was magic, what my mom would do. She would draw on all the mirrors. There were balloons. So you would look in the mirror and it would say, “Mommy loves you. Happy birthday.” It was just the most glorious. She just loves celebration. Honestly, it’s taken me a long time to realize, I’m not that person. I don’t decorate for Christmas. You got to take it down though.
Abby Wambach:
That’s exactly right. That’s exactly how I feel.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It’s the same reason I don’t wear mascara. You got to take it off.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Aftercare.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It’s like, “No, thank you.” If I’m not doing it for work, you’ve got to be kidding me. So I celebrate in different ways. It’s different for me. So I made some conscious choices because it was 50 about what I wanted to do. Last year I had the most perfect birthday ever. It was six people at dinner, a restaurant I always go to, I ordered the same things I order and we were just talking, it was just a regular dinner. It’s all it was. It was fantastic. This felt important for me. It is an honor to turn 50.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
There are people, particularly after what we went through with COVID. So many people lost their lives, people don’t make it into this age. And I feel honored. Even the things that I’m really challenged by, really challenged by. But I feel like, thank you. This is evidence of my life and my history and my legacy and my laughter and my things. And so I really wanted to market with that. And so I had to ask myself what would make it feel like a celebration for me? Some of those things were, I wanted costume changes.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh God. Just wait. Because we have so many costumes.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Clothing really, it just… Dressing up is just it. I don’t know, people might think it’s weird, I love it. When I am having a bad day, one of my favorite things to do is go in the closet and play dress up. I woke up this morning, I bought a new sweater and I woke up this morning at 06:30 and I was like, “Ooh, I have the outfit.” And in my glasses, my hair everywhere, stripped down and went the closet and made the look with the new sweater. And literally looked in the mirror and was like, “Yeah, you got it. You got it. You got it. That’s what I’m talking about, Tracee.” I have no idea where I’m going to wear that outfit. I never leave the house. But I was like, “That’s what I’m talking about now. That’s Tracee. All right. Now I’m going to brush my teeth.”
Glennon Doyle:
I need to ask a question about it. Okay?
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
And this might be totally… You have said about fashion, “It’s not, look at me, it’s this is me.”
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
This is me. Okay.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I need you to explain to me what the hell that means.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
I understand a chef can be like, “Here’s my heart and mind and soul on a plate.” Tracee Ellis Ross can be like, “Here is my mind and my heart and my soul in a sweater.” I’m amazed by it.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
So when I was young, I’ve always loved beautiful things. I used to trail after my mom and pick up the beads that fell off of her dress on stage after the curtain went down. You could hear them crunching under our high heels. And I would get those little 35 millimeter canister things.
Glennon Doyle:
Film.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And I would collect them. And then I would separate them by color into the different beads. And so I’ve always loved the artistry of clothing. I saw a woman, my mother use clothing and glamor as a way to transform herself into a different version of herself, but still herself and a woman with agency. It was about her. It wasn’t about pleasing someone else. It was sort of adorning herself with all of the bobbles that she felt were a version of this part of her life.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And so that was always my relationship to clothing and glamor and sparkle. And then I started to use clothing as armor. And now looking back, I can define, there were two ways that I fought racism without realizing that’s what it was. But I came from a wealthy world and I was living on Fifth Avenue, but I was still one of very few black people in many environments. In stores, in different places. And I didn’t know that what was coming at me sometimes was microaggression and micro racism and all those kinds of things coming at me in these different ways. And so the way I presented myself was part of my armor. I was going to play the role of somebody who couldn’t be fucked with.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
So I did it in grade school, high school. There was a way that I would see it as my armor. And then it sort of transformed itself and transmuted itself out of armor and into a form of creative expression for me. And it’s one of the ways I wear my insides on my outside. And so I dress in all different kinds of ways. And back to what you said when you described me at the beginning, all these different parts of me that seem to match or don’t match or whatever, I let my clothing be that.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
So sometimes I want to feel really sexy and then sometimes I don’t want to feel sexy. So it just depends on what I’m covering up and what I’m wanting to share and all of that. And I worked in fashion and was a stylist for a while. So there’s a language to clothing that I really speak. It’s like sometimes I watch dancers and I think, “My God, the language of their bodies.” They’re literally speaking a language. And for me, style as opposed to fashion, but style is an expression the same way… Alok defines beauty in a way that it’s the imprint of your soul. And beauty is something that blossoms. And I feel, for me, clothing is a version of that. I really wish everyone would adopt that understanding of beauty, by the way, just blows my mind.
Glennon Doyle:
I think it’s wild that you just mentioned Alok, because that’s what I was thinking of when you were talking.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Your costume changes that night. I get what you’re doing. I can see the language you’re speaking. I’m like, “Oh, there’s the majesty that’s inside of Tracee is now outside of Tracee.” “Oh, the sexiness that’s inside of Tracee’s outside.” “The ancient spirit that is inside of Tracee was in that first costume.”
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah, that first outfit was genuinely like some futuristic…
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Timeless.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I don’t know. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Alien or Roman.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t know if it was going backwards or forward or upwards to heaven or downwards.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
We were outside of time.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And then the dream to wear one of my mother’s dresses.
Glennon Doyle:
Your mom. There’s the love, tradition, honor of the lineage that outside of Tracee.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I’ll take, can I tell you a cute part of that dress?
Glennon Doyle:
Please.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
So I sent my mom a picture of a black version of that dress. And I was like, “So where’s this? Where’s this?” She was like, “Oh, we can go to the storage and we can find it.” And then she said, “But there’s a red one.” And I was like, “Great.” So the red one was even better. So I went to my mom’s house and I have spent much time in her quick change booth when I was younger, learning how to get her in and out of a dress in three minutes. And there’s a way you hold the waist, you butterfly a dress on the floor. So you step right to the floor and then the dress comes up because they weigh like 30 pounds, those dresses.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my gosh.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. So you hold my mom’s waist, so she’s steady. As she reaches down to pull the dress up, and then you switch. Once she’s got it up enough, you switch and her arms go in and then you can zip up. And so I’ve done that many a time and all through the years. And so this time I went to her house and there I was, totally naked with my mom holding my waist. And I said, “Mom, I’m so sorry.” Because I took my underwear off. I’m like, “I’m so sorry mom.” And she was like, “I know that thing.” And I was like, “I know, but you haven’t seen in a long time.” You know what I mean? It’s like, get a little bit out of your reach now.
Abby Wambach:
She’s like, “I made that thing.”
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I know. And as I always say, which really drives her crazy. I’m like, “I know I came out of your vagina.” Which makes her crazy. She’s like, “Ugh, so inappropriate.” So she’s there, I’m naked and she’s zipping me into her dress and then taking the pictures of me. And it was really moving for me, very. Because so much of my life, Diana Ross aside, but I saw my mother. I saw this incredible woman in a sparkly dress on a stage. And what it meant to me about being a woman in charge of your life.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
The example, a woman that was saying, “This is me, not look at me.” A woman that was in her full glory and freedom with her arms up, her heart open in her sensuality and sexuality. And so it was a lighthouse that I’ve been walking towards. So then at my 50th birthday to actually be in one of those dresses, and to strangely out of nowhere grab the microphone and unrehearsed, sing her song, “It’s My Turn” and change that line to 50, “I’m 50 and I’m free.” That was just kind of magical. And in the cauldron of my loved ones.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, and also the same beads that you were picking up as a child was just-
Glennon Doyle:
Everybody was jaws open. Just like, “How are we witnessing this?”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, it was surreal.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. It was a really unplanned and unbelievably special moment. It was so interesting, because after my birthday, which is what I’m in now, it feels like I had a New Year’s Eve, and I’m on the other side and the dust has settled from Blackish and I was tethered to that for so many years where everything was around it. I’m also going through perimenopause. So I have, for my entire life, been tethered to a very routine cycle. And I’m very connected to my body. So I would know I’m ovulating, I would have all the feelings of knowing that. And all of that is out the window. And I turn 50. And here I am in this open space now, sort of allowing the bubbling up of whatever might be here, because I’m really specific about my life. And I’m somebody who doesn’t just go where the tide is taking me. I really manifest quickly. So I language deliberately, because otherwise, I go places I didn’t mean to go. And so it’s a really interesting and open special moment right now.
Abby Wambach:
That’s so fucking cool.
Glennon Doyle:
Sissy, did you want to say something?
Amanda Doyle:
I want to say so many things.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Say things. Are you crying?
Amanda Doyle:
Is anyone not crying?
Glennon Doyle:
That’s the first sister cried. That doesn’t happen in our family, Tracee.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m just sitting kind of in awe of the life that you have built with such intention and how utterly uncompromising you’ve been in terms of being yourself and all of the passions and agency and choices that means, what do you attribute that to? What do you attribute your kind of ability?
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Insanity?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, what she does, Tracee doesn’t abandon herself.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Well, it’s interesting. I’ve really learned how to do that, because I think that I have abandoned myself way too many times, way too many times. But each time in the aftermath of the hurt, I do ask myself the question of how do I not end up here again? And what I have discovered is, I will end up here again.
Abby Wambach:
Oh God. It’s true. Damn it, why do we have to keep learning those same lessons over and over?
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I just think that’s it though. It’s funny, I have been nursing another just deep disappointment, and my little inner child was, she was just crying, just crying so hard. And for the first time I was able to sit with her and I was like, “Here’s the thing, my love, I’m not going anywhere. I’m not going anywhere. I don’t know. I don’t know how to be anybody else. I just don’t. But what I know how to do is to be me and to just hold that space with as much compassion and curiosity and gentleness as possible. And to find all the things, even if it’s a bag of fricking funyuns.” What is it? What is that we need today to just try and hold that space of love? I think that’s the thing we’re sold, that’s wrong. I don’t know that life is supposed to be a thing that just feels good all the time.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
But how can we hold the spaces and the days and the periods when it just doesn’t feel good? And I just feel so unlovable? And how can I have the hurt without deciding it means I’m unlovable. How do you not give meaning to it? And that’s where the work is, in that little space. Right? Because I tell you, I mean, I’m on the floor half the time. One of your questions. What was the question? How often do you feel bad? What is it? I saw-
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. How often are you down?
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Oh, lots.
Glennon Doyle:
Lots of times? Three last year?
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Let me think. Three last year?
Glennon Doyle:
I’m joking.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Do you mean… Yep. Do you mean… What? I don’t remember last year. I am bogged down by this year. Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I’m bogged down by this week. And the thing that’s crazy to me is you’re just sailing along, it’s like a good one. I’m feeling good
Glennon Doyle:
You got your sweater.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And then where does it come… I’m like, “Oh, I did not know I was going to get sideswiped by that.” And why am I two days later still in a hangover? Why is it a week later? And also I’ve learned that two things can be true at the same time. I can be really productive and doing really well and also heartbroken.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. Something you just said, “I don’t know how to be anything, but me.” To me that is so incredible. Because I know how to be anything, almost anything but to me.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
Right. And so there is an equal amount of pain and loneliness in being able-
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Absolutely.
Amanda Doyle:
…to be everything other than you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And so that thing, how did you get to the place where you could A, be you and identify it? “This is Tracee. I can see it. I can smell it. I can put it in a sweater.” And then how did you get to the place where you just couldn’t be anything other than that?
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Well, I actually think the question is actually how… The entrance into it was making friends with the loneliness and the hurt that comes on either side.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Because I was, other than me forever. And I still have days where I’m like, “Why the fuck did I just say that? I don’t believe… “Who was that person that was so weird? Why did I do that?” You get home and you’re like, “Oh my God, that person thinks I’m a person who does… I don’t do that.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. No worries. I’ll just move.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. God, that’s what I think every time a bug comes in my house.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Well, good for you.
Glennon Doyle:
“Time to go.”
Tracee Ellis Ross:
“This is your lovely new home.” Yes. “Take care.” Also, I don’t have kids, I haven’t had a partner. So I have been forced to go like, “Well, I don’t know. What do I want then?” There’s so many things I don’t do. Because there’s only so many things you can do alone. And I do a lot of the things alone that most people are like, “I can’t believe you do that alone.” I go on vacations alone. I go to dinner alone on a Friday night at seven or eight o’clock. You know what I mean? I do all those things, but there’s certain things that I’m not going to do alone, I’m just not. And so I’ve been forced to figure out that going in my closet and making an outfit really makes me happy.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
You know what I mean? I get jazzed up and I’m like, “That was good. Now, I’m going to go watch the crown goodnight. Yay.” You know what I mean? “Woo. This day was good.” “I’m going to eat a whole jar olives all by myself. Even though my sister said I smell like olives when I was five. I like olives. I’m going to eat the whole jar.” Now I literally, people put a bag… Open a bag of potato chips, I take a jar of olives and I pour the liquid out, and then I dump it into a bowl and I eat the bowl.
Glennon Doyle:
It sounds like heaven.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It’s heaven to me. So I think it’s more the other thing. Because I think we all suffer with-
Glennon Doyle:
Yep.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
…”Am I this or am I that?” But how do we hold, really lovingly and gently the aftermath that comes up?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
The shame, all those things that you should be doing something different, living a different way, should have done it differently, said it differently or whatever. How do you hold that part of you? Because that’s the thing I think that holds us back from actually having a life that we want to live. But I struggle with all this. I’m just bumbling along over here. Don’t compare your insides to other people’s outsides. You know what I mean?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It always looks like it’s easier over there.
Glennon Doyle:
But it’s also knowing losing somebody hurts and then the losing yourself hurts more.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. I love you, but I love me more.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And that’s a really hard one. That doesn’t work every day.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, it doesn’t work every day. Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I mean, we wish it was.
Glennon Doyle:
I love me, but I love you more. So fuck it. Let’s go out. Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Today you win, buddy.
Amanda Doyle:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Today I have thrown me out the window my dear friend.
Glennon Doyle:
Because I got this sweater and I’m going out.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And tomorrow I will deal with the aftermath.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s right.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
We will call the therapist and the squad of friends and we will try and put me back together, because I obviously threw me out into a whole bunch of pieces. I also used to be a person, I swear to God, I would run the things by everybody, go to put $20 on the gas tank, number 12. And let me ask you a question. “So there was this guy that said, and so he called, and then I call… Do I call him back or? I don’t… I mean, I just know… Oh, yes. On 12, number 12, put gas. But do you have any experience with this? Because of your objective? And I know you don’t know me, so I just want to run this by you. Is there anything you could tell me about your choice when it comes to the calling him back? Do I wait two days? You know what I mean?”
Glennon Doyle:
I do. I tried to be Joe.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I’m going to try everybody. You know what I mean? Or my life is mind speech. That was all my favorite line in that was I asked my ex-boyfriend
Glennon Doyle:
Tell us.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
“Get out of here, Tracee. Come on. You have not been with this person in how long? What are you doing, girl?”
Glennon Doyle:
I know.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
“You don’t need his permission.” But it still comes up. And I.
Amanda Doyle:
For six people who haven’t listened to that glamour-
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Okay, sorry.
Amanda Doyle:
…speech. It was the realization that Tracee came to after she found herself stewing over the need to tell her very ex boyfriend that she was interested in seeing other people.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
If you’re listening, you couldn’t see. I rolled my eyes so hard that I thought they might get stuck behind my head at the thought of myself doing that. Yeah. This is the thing. I have a friend who also says, “We know better, we don’t always do better.”
Glennon Doyle:
And sometimes we know we’re not doing better and we choose it anyway.
Amanda Doyle:
Thank you.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And we choose it anyway.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And so what? And that’s the same person who says, “Hey babe, why don’t you give yourself 1000 breaks?” And and 1000 more.
Glennon Doyle:
Can I have that friend’s number, also?
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly. She should pop on the podcast.
Glennon Doyle:
She might be my actual best friend.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Because it’s crazy. You just, yeah. You don’t know. And she always says to me, “It’s not always what you’re doing, it’s the questions you’re asking.” You should ask the right questions.
Glennon Doyle:
What’s interesting to me is while you’re talking and you’re talking about how you talk to yourself, and I know how you’ve talked to other people in real life, and I was thinking about how you’ve mentioned twice that, “Well, I don’t have kids, but.” And I was thinking that the people, I have three people in my life who I consider to be the best mothers, like-
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Glennon Doyle:
You know what I’m going to say right now?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Who just have the most pristine, mothering energy, and it’s you, and these are the people in my life, you, Liz Gilbert and Alex Edison. And what do they all three have in common? They don’t fucking have kids.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And they’re all very duplicate.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I was-
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, they’re also all gorgeous. Yeah. They’re the best mothers that I know.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I will say, I say this to people all the time, I’m a wonderful mother.
Glennon Doyle:
Wonderful.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And I’m very mothering. And it’s been hard for me to claim that. In a world where I don’t have the thing that says… I mean, what was I just writing as I’m trying to… Let me see. Hold on. “I can feel my body’s ability…” This was a journal entry from three or four days ago. “I can feel my body’s ability to make a child draining out of me. Sometimes I find it hilarious. And as if there’s a fire sale going on in my uterus and someone’s in there screaming, ‘All things must go.’ And then I look down and blah, blah, blah.” Skip that. And then this is what’s interesting to me.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
“As my body becomes a foreign place to me that doesn’t really feel safer like home. And I don’t know how to manage a control or fight the external binary narrative of the patriarchy that has haunted me and haunted me most of my adult life. Is it my fertility that is leaving me? Is it my womanhood? Or is it really neither? But I have to fight to hold my truth, because I have been programmed so successfully by the water we all swim in, by the water we all are served. And I feel fertile with creativity, full of power, more and more a woman than I’ve ever been. And yet that power that I was told I must use was not used. A power…”
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. I mean, just trying to figure out what that means, because my ability to have a child is leaving me. But I don’t agree that that’s what fertile means, I don’t agree that that’s what woman means.
Glennon Doyle:
Nope.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Which is why the freedom that the expansion around gender has offered me, and the knowledge that is being shared with us by the trans community is like, “Oh my God, thank you. Thank you for finally unpacking something that I had no ability to unpack, because of what was handed to me in a culture that thought of it in such a limited way.” And so trying to make sense of that at this age, with my own limited point of view is really fun, honestly.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you for sharing that.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. That’s gorgeous.
Amanda Doyle:
And what if that idea of fertility from so young, if it was handed to us and saying, “What are you going to do with this fertility that you have?”
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And one minute aspect of that might be that you choose to reproduce?
Tracee Ellis Ross:
That’s it.
Glennon Doyle:
But your fertility.
Amanda Doyle:
One slice
Amanda Doyle:
Is this big? And then we would realize, God, how many generations and generations-
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It’s unbelievable.
Amanda Doyle:
…of fallow ground, because we were never presented with our own creative, forward-thinking, beautiful fertility.
Glennon Doyle:
And then all the women who just have kids who everyone looks at them and says, “Well, you should be freaking happy. You did the thing. You did the one fertile thing.” And no, they maybe had a wide vast of what their fertility could have birthed into the world.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Now, really, it’s heartbreaking. It’s a heartbreaking thought. It’s heartbreaking. And I’m grateful to be able to look at it with curiosity instead of heartbreak. And the heartbreak does come up, and I get to hold that gently and lovingly and then say, remind myself, “I woke up every morning of my life and I’ve tried to do my best, so I must be where I’m supposed to be.”
Abby Wambach:
Well, thank you for speaking up too, on behalf of the trans community. I’ve never thought of it that way. And being a person who won’t have my own biological children, you just kind of gave me a little bit of a roadmap of work I need to do. And I’m really grateful for all that you just said. That was unreal.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
She’s something, this one, she’s something.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
So hard for me to take any of that in. But it is an unbelievable injustice that is laid on all of us as human beings. That there is one pathway that is informed by this random construct that somebody came up with around gender. When I pull back from it, I’m like, “That’s a joke. Who did that?” You know what I… I’m just like, “Who did that? That’s so silly.” You’ve just limited so much life. You’ve limited so much life.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And so much-
Amanda Doyle:
It’s almost like that was the point.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. It’s almost like that was the point. Really, it’s terrifying when you think about it. You’re just like, “Oh my gosh.” So yeah, I ponder these things a lot. And then every once in a while I hear something and I’m just like, “Right. Why did I…” And then I have to forgive. We all have to forgive ourselves because we come by it, honestly.
Glennon Doyle:
Yep. That’s right.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It’s what we’ve been served. It’s what we’ve been given. And the courage of those that give us a different roadmap, that shares something that opens up and unlocks a space that we had locked down unconsciously is always such a gift.
Glennon Doyle:
When your sister, Rhonda, who I love so much, when she gave the toast.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
She’s the wise one, by the way. I’m chopped liver in my family. My siblings are the shiznizle.
Glennon Doyle:
She’s something.
Amanda Doyle:
All your siblings
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Just like, they’re just magical. They take care of me. You know what I mean?
Glennon Doyle:
They love you.
Abby Wambach:
The love you all have for each other, it’s just the love is so palpable.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That was one of my favorite things about the night.
Abby Wambach:
It’s unbelievable.
Glennon Doyle:
Is just watching your siblings watch you when… Anyway, glowing. All glowing. Okay. I forgot what I was going to say.
Abby Wambach:
Rhonda.
Glennon Doyle:
Rhonda. Okay. And then she said, she quoted you back to you when she said, “My life is mine.” And then you sang a song that was your mom’s song. And then as you said in the beginning, you were saying, “I’m 50 and free.” “I’m 50 and free.” What are you free from? When you were saying that, what were you thinking? And maybe freeing from? Maybe we’re never free from anything, but…
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. I don’t know that I’ll ever be free from some of these things. I’ve actually read little things I wrote when I was 15 and 12, and I’m like, “Wow, I’ve been chomping on this stuff forever.”
Glennon Doyle:
Almost done.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Fascinating.
Amanda Doyle:
In another 50 years, you’re going to have it nailed. Nailed, Tracee.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I’m going to have this stuff nailed. I’m going to tell you.
Amanda Doyle:
Think of the costumes.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Think of the costumes. I remember this moment, I was crying so hard to this particular friend, and I was like, “I don’t think, I just don’t think… I just am not right. The people, I’m just not lovable. I do it all wrong.” She was like, Oh, hold on. Maybe you’re just not everyone’s cup of tea.” I was like, “But I want to be everybody’s cup tea. I want everybody to… I want to be everybody’s cup of tea.” It’s like, “Okay, but maybe you’re not.” And I was like, “Okay.” I’m like, “Ahhh.” And she said, “Why don’t you do this? Why don’t you make a list of all of the things that you like about yourself?”
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And I was like, “That seems crazy.” And I made this list and I realized that so many of the things that I like about myself are the things that I do think are difficult for people, but they’re the things that I like about myself. That I’m not afraid to say when I don’t think something feels right. That I’m not afraid to say when something doesn’t feel right for me, no matter how far and deeply into that thing I am.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
That I have a really loud laugh. All these different things that make me maybe not everyone’s cup of tea. And that totally changed my relationship to those aspects of me that I think I was trying to hide in order to be chosen, to be lovable, blah, blah, blah. So I don’t know that my discomfort with not being everyone’s cup of tea, or the unlovability and self-loathing that comes up, I don’t know that those are ever going to go away. I think that what I am free from, or that I have a different relationship to them. And the same way you say we can do hard things, which I use all the time, and is just such a good guiding force, I can do hard things. I can also be uncomfortable. I can also be comfortable when I’m uncomfortable. I can also be happy even if I don’t like how everything’s going. I don’t know if it’s what I’m a free from, but I have a larger container now to hold myself.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And I know myself really well, and it’s taken a lot of time to have the courage to actually live my life as that person. But I have a lot of experience chewing on ground glass and sort of, not really… And sort of sitting with the discomfort of, I might have ruined that thing. My big fear was, “Am I going to ruin the course of my destiny if I make the wrong choice?” And my spiritual awakening in life has been, “I’m okay. You can’t ruin it, babe. You okay.” That’s it. There was no burning bush. It was just, “You’re okay.” And sometimes enough is enough. I don’t have to make it better. It’s just fine. It’s just fine. “You’re fine, sweetie. It’s fine. You don’t have everything you want. It’s fine.”
Abby Wambach:
I love your laugh.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
My laugh?
Glennon Doyle:
Think about how weak you’d have to be-
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I have a whopper
Glennon Doyle:
…to be everyone’s cup of tea. You’d have to be the weakest ass tea.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
You’d have to be the weakest ass tea. You’d have to be water.
Glennon Doyle:
No, you’d have to be water. And you can’t even be flavorful.
Amanda Doyle:
You can’t be warm water. You’re going to be luke warm-
Tracee Ellis Ross:
And by the way, some people don’t like water.
Amanda Doyle:
…not even sparkling.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right-
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Some people don’t-
Glennon Doyle:
…people hate water.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It’s not possible.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right. It’s not possible.
Glennon Doyle:
And the more flavorful you are, the narrow your tea audience might be. Specific.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Yeah. It might be a narrow tea audience.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I do think that your audience is pretty damn wide though, Tracee Ellis Ross.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I don’t know, I think I bug the hell out of a lot of people.
Glennon Doyle:
Not us.
Amanda Doyle:
I think they’re the right ones. I think they’re the right ones.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Okay. Maybe.
Glennon Doyle:
Different cauldron then. We are going to let you go because-
Tracee Ellis Ross:
We could talk forever. But how long have we been talking? Has this been like seven hours?
Glennon Doyle:
It’s been an hour. It’s been an hour, and it’s been one of my favorite hours of this entire show.
Abby Wambach:
Seriously.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It’s been an hour. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And once again, you have shown up with all of your power and vulnerability, and somehow they’re the exact same thing. And once again, I just really love you.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
I feel the same way. I just want to say to the three of yous that I’m so grateful. I’m grateful to Amanda to know you, but to also have the honor of being a cauldron sister with you. And to live in a world where we can have conversations that are this gentle and real and quiet and loud, and that you have these conversations with lots of people. Like what a blessing. And you have them publicly, and then you also have them privately.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
That’s a really special thing that I don’t think exists everywhere. It’s a special thing that you’re bringing it into the world, and I’m happy to be a part of it.
Abby Wambach:
You’re a remarkable human.
Glennon Doyle:
Pod squad, we give you Tracee Ellis Ross. I’m not going to promise that it’s ever going to get better than that. Just re-listen. Okay?
Amanda Doyle:
For every other episode, enough is enough.
Glennon Doyle:
Downhill from here.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It’s enough.
Glennon Doyle:
And when life gets hard this week, you’re going to remind yourself. “It’s okay, sweetie.”
Tracee Ellis Ross:
It’s okay. It’s okay, sweet.
Glennon Doyle:
Gentle, gentle.
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Gentle, gentle. I’m right here, right here. Not going anywhere.
Glennon Doyle:
Bye
Tracee Ellis Ross:
Bye.