Geena Davis: How to Thelma & Louise Your Life
November 1, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome to a thrilling episode of We Can Do Hard Things. With us today is Geena Davis,-
Amanda Doyle:
Whoo, whoo.
Glennon Doyle:
… who is a two time Academy award-winning actor and has appeared in roles that became cultural landmarks, including Muriel Pritchett in the Accidental Tourist, Thelma in Thelma and Louise and Dottie Hinton,-
Abby Wambach:
Whoo, whoo. What?
Glennon Doyle:
… Abby’s idol in a League of their Own. She is also a world class athlete, a member of the Genius Society, Mensa,-
Abby Wambach:
Ah.
Glennon Doyle:
… and is now recognized for her advocacy for women and girls as founder and chair of the Emmy winning nonprofit, Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media, which engages film and television creators to dramatically increase the percentage of female characters and reduced gender stereotyping in media made for children. Her memoir, Dying of Politeness, is available now. Geena Davis, thank you for doing so many hard things.
Geena Davis:
Thank you, Glennon. Well, I sound good on paper.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, you do.
Abby Wambach:
You do. You really do.
Glennon Doyle:
And speaking of sounding, I just have to start with this. I just think it’s so amazing that your mom spelled your name G-E-E-N-A, and you thought that was because she just wanted you to be special and unique. But tell me why your mother told you she spelled it that way instead of G-I-N-A?
Geena Davis:
I thought it was because she didn’t know how to spell,-
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Geena Davis:
… how you actually spell Gina, and that she thought she was making up the name.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Geena Davis:
And oh so cute that she didn’t know how to spell it. So when I was visiting one time and she had been reading little interviews or clippings about me and she said, “People seem to love your name the way your name is spelled.” I said, “I know. Yeah. I just tell them you didn’t know how to spell it.” And she said, “Oh, no, no, no. I know exactly how to spell it. I grew up in an Italian neighborhood. I know very well how you actually spell it.” I said, “Really? Then why didn’t you spell it that way?” And she said, “Well, I didn’t want people to think it was gina as in the vagina.” So my entire adorable identity is based on fear of the vagina.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so good. It’s too perfect for words. I mean, our feminist icon warrior. Her name originates from fear of vaginas. It’s so good.
Geena Davis:
It’s the best.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s the best. So can we start by talking about your parents a little bit because we already did, we already told a really good one. A doozy. But I love … You say you were raised by New England parents who taught you that being polite-
Geena Davis:
Ah.
Glennon Doyle:
… was the most important thing in the world. Perhaps, Geena, even more important than life itself, can you tell us the story about being eight years old and driving with your Uncle Jack?
Geena Davis:
Yes. Yes. So my parents and I were in a car driven by my great-uncle Jack, who was 99 at the time. And his wife, is my aunt, is in the front seat passenger side. So we’re driving home at night from a restaurant and it’s quite a deserted two-lane street, no room on the sides. And every once in a while he’d just veer into the oncoming lane-
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, my.
Geena Davis:
… and then veer back again and then veer back in the oncoming lane and back. But there hadn’t been any cars coming, but it was alarming. And my parents didn’t say anything. They didn’t say anything. I think it was my mom … I was right behind Uncle Jack, and she picked me up and put me in the middle between them because maybe I would die less-
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Geena Davis:
… when we had a head-on collision-
Glennon Doyle:
Less death.
Geena Davis:
… with someone, not realizing, of course, that I would now have a straight shot through the windshield. So we’re continuing like that and now he veers into the oncoming lane, straddling the yellow line. But now there’s a car coming and there’s nowhere for either side to pull over. It’s like a little narrow street. And my parents don’t say anything and it’s going to happen. We’re going to have a head on collision with this car-
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my gosh.
Geena Davis:
… in seconds but they don’t say anything. And, finally, at the last instant, Aunt Marion says, “A little to the right, Jack,” and he just veers a little bit and the car streaks past us so close that I could very easily see the faces, the horrified faces, of the people in the other car. And it really wasn’t until much later that I realized my parents were willing to die or/and including kill their child or allow their child to die rather than be impolite. And they could have done what Aunt Marion said, they could have said, “Oh, Jack, please make your turn a little turn to the right, please.” Perhaps a normal person would’ve said, “Holy God, pull over Jack. You’re going to kill us all.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. “Pull over and get out of the car. I’m driving the rest of the way.”
Geena Davis:
And they say, “I’m going to drive now,” but that didn’t happen. But I was, literally, only spared, not because my parents spoke up, for sure.
Glennon Doyle:
So interesting. One of the things that you talk about so much in the first part of your book is all of these feelings you had, which we hear from our own brains and women all the time about feeling too much. You say you “Felt too tall to hide.” You once asked a pastor how to make boys like you and he said, “Why don’t you try being more quiet and not so big sometime?”
Abby Wambach:
Fuck you.
Glennon Doyle:
And you said, “My dream growing up was to take up less space in the world.
Geena Davis:
Right. Right.
Glennon Doyle:
I just felt like I was taking up too much space.” What does that do to us? Because it’s almost like not being polite.
Geena Davis:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
If you’re a girl who’s taking up too much space-
Geena Davis:
You’re impolite.
Glennon Doyle:
Did you always feel like you were impolite-
Geena Davis:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
… because you were existing?
Geena Davis:
“Because you were existing.” It’s true. It’s true. I didn’t want to over exist. I didn’t want to push my existence on anybody. It was really true.
Glennon Doyle:
Over exist. That’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
What is that about? Is it needs? Because when you think about what is the crux of that sin of saying something? Like, is it, “I have a need that is outside of what you’re providing right now and I should just wait to be provided?”
Geena Davis:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
You say that you grew up, even if someone had a cup of ice water in their hands and was about to hand it to you, you were taught to say, “No. No thank you. I’m not thirsty,” even if you-
Geena Davis:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
… were thirsty and even if they were giving it to you.
Geena Davis:
Right. So, exactly. It was having needs, that was the embarrassing thing. Or the thing that must be avoided at all times is having a need because that would be impolite to need anything from anybody. But, on the other hand, their philosophy, my parents’ philosophy, was give, give, give, give, give. My parents would do anything for anybody. My dad fixed everybody’s furnace and broken pipes and cars or whatever. But not to take anything for yourself.
Glennon Doyle:
So then you are a kid, you get a paper route and you are abused by one of the men on your paper route?
Geena Davis:
Mm-hmm.
Glennon Doyle:
And in the wake of that, you come home and you tell your mom and your mom goes to talk to him, but never talks to you about it and never presses charges or anything.
Geena Davis:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
So you say when it comes to not talking about things, we New Englanders are gold medalists, will not talk about anything.
Geena Davis:
Right. Right.
Glennon Doyle:
So how did not talking about the abuse affect you and what do you wish that they had done differently?
Geena Davis:
Well, first of all, at 10 I had no idea that there was anything between my legs besides that’s where you pee. I had never heard the term “Your privates. Nothing, nothing like that. So first it started … He just wanted to give me a big hug when I delivered the paper and he’d give me, like, Twinkies or something every time I came in. And then it got long hugs and then finally he started reaching down with his fingers and touching me. And I didn’t feel shame. I didn’t feel shock. I just didn’t know what it meant. It just seemed strange that that was happening.
Geena Davis:
And so it went on for a while until one day I finally said to my mom, “You know what’s so weird? I don’t understand what this is, why he touches me like this?” And I did it to her because I had no idea that it would mean anything to her either. And she flew through the ceiling like a rocket. She just went crazy. But then strode up the middle of the street and disappeared into his house and everything. And I said, “What happened? What is this about? What? What? What?”
Geena Davis:
And came back and said, “You are never to go in his house again. You have to leave the paper at the sidewalk. You’re not delivering his paper anymore. But you’re still delivering it, but leave it at the bottom of the stairs.” And didn’t say anything about this is what it was about or even, “He shouldn’t have done …” There was no explanation whatsoever about what happened. And so I felt like I did something so horrific-
Glennon Doyle:
Aw.
Geena Davis:
… that she can’t even tell me-
Glennon Doyle:
Gross.
Geena Davis:
… what it is. It’s just so embarrassing. I’ve made such a horrible mistake that I don’t know what it is. I loved that she acted on it immediately. She wasn’t polite about storming up the street and telling him, “You will never touch her again,” and blah, blah blah. But she didn’t follow through with teaching me how to avoid something like that in the future.
Abby Wambach:
Thank you for sharing that.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, thank you. Kind of like, it’s so interesting as parents. Like, your cat died, right?
Geena Davis:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And then they didn’t talk to you about it. And I just relate to this as a parent so much. They didn’t talk to you about your cat dying-
Geena Davis:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
… so that they wouldn’t traumatize you?
Geena Davis:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
But didn’t you just felt traumatized, like, “Where the hell did my cat go?”
Geena Davis:
Oh, my God. Yeah. The cat got hit by a car. And we were quite young. Well, we were quite little, and we asked, “Where’s Sonny?” We didn’t see him. “Oh, he ran away but he’s living with another family now we’re sure. And he’s fine.” And we’re like, “What? What? What? We’re not going to look for him? Why does somebody else get our cat? I don’t understand any of it.” And on and on and on.
Geena Davis:
So began years of my brother and I trying to find out where Sonny is.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my gosh.
Geena Davis:
We would be in another state driving along and if we saw a yellow cat on the side of the road, “Ma, stop the car. It could be Sonny.” And-
Amanda Doyle:
Oh.
Geena Davis:
… it just went on and on and on. And they must have thought, “Jesus, God, we made the wrong choice,” because it didn’t spare us-
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Geena Davis:
… whatsoever from feeling pain and it certainly tortured them forever.
Glennon Doyle:
And I would imagine that it gives a kid some kind of shame too. It’s like when you don’t-
Geena Davis:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
… explain it right,-
Geena Davis:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
… whether it’s the abuse or the leaving of the cat, the kid is left, like, “What’ll I do?”
Geena Davis:
Yeah. “How am I supposed to process this?” It made no sense. My parents loved animals. They were obsessed with pets and animals and that they would say, “Oh, he’s totally fine. He’s run away but I’m sure he’s found a very nice family.” “Aren’t we nice?” I mean, what-
Glennon Doyle:
“We’re the nicest. Nobody’s nicer than us.”
Geena Davis:
Oh, no. In fact, you’re right, “Nobody is nicer than us.”
Glennon Doyle:
That’s how you knew it was a lie, Geena.
Geena Davis:
That’s how I knew.
Glennon Doyle:
“There’s no nicer family out there.” So then you’re 12-
Geena Davis:
Yeah, “No nicer family than us.”
Glennon Doyle:
… and you read an article called Why Feminists are Ruining the World-
Geena Davis:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
… and you thought, “I will never be one of those terrible people,” right?
Geena Davis:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
“As God is my witness.”
Geena Davis:
As God is my witness, I’d never heard the word. Nobody had ever, ever, ever talked about it and I was learning. It was a, sort of, political article about how horrible feminism was. And I thought, “Wow, this is something horrible that only women can be.” And I am so … Now, at least I know now what this thing is, what it’s called and I will never be that. So it’s so hilarious that-
Glennon Doyle:
There she is.
Geena Davis:
Pretty much the opposite happened, but-
Glennon Doyle:
So you try to figure out how you’re never going to catch feminism? And then-
Geena Davis:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
… I love this: Second wave feminism comes in and there’s all these shows. And this is so cool the way you talk about this, that Bewitched came to the screen and I Dream of Jeannie. And reading this, I’m like, “Yeah, those are cool shows about women having super powers.”
Geena Davis:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
But then you say, “Actually they were largely about being told to sit on their magical talents by the men in their lives.”
Geena Davis:
Right. Right.
Glennon Doyle:
And then you say, “This happened in several of my marriages,” at which point I put down the book to laugh out loud.
Geena Davis:
Well, it’s not necessarily true but-
Glennon Doyle:
What is this about?
Geena Davis:
… it’s a good line anyway.
Glennon Doyle:
What did you mean by that? Staying small to make men feel comfortable, I imagine. How has this happened in your life?
Geena Davis:
Well, yes, and I’m not saying that I was forced to do that. It was just how I operated. I used to be incredibly shy when I first met men and I’ve only later come to realize that I think I felt like I didn’t know how they wanted me to be. And if I could be shy for a little while and figure out what they seemed to like or want, then I can be that. But I’m going to just hold my cards close to the vest until I figure out what’s appealing to them.
Glennon Doyle:
Did that work out well?
Geena Davis:
That works out so good. And then a little while in you’re like, “What the fuck am I doing?”
Glennon Doyle:
That sounds right. That tracks for me.
Abby Wambach:
You turned yourself into a little bit of a pretzel.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s the kick in the shorts of life-
Geena Davis:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
… because needs are needs. And you can just put those bad boys in a bottle like a genie for as long as you can but they’re going to come out.
Geena Davis:
Yeah, you’re right.
Glennon Doyle:
So when you decide to go into acting, Geena, I don’t know how to ask you this, but you talk about when you’re backstage and you’re getting ready to do your acting-
Amanda Doyle:
I don’t even know if there’s a backstage in film.
Glennon Doyle:
Whatever. Whatever, sister. Just, I don’t know about acting, right? You’re preparing-
Geena Davis:
Not on the set.
Glennon Doyle:
Ah.
Geena Davis:
I’m off set.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, off set, whatever.
Abby Wambach:
In her trailer.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Geena Davis:
There you go.
Glennon Doyle:
And you’re supposed to, instead of manufacturing emotions, “You’re supposed to work with what you have,” you say. So there’s this scene where this character’s supposed to be enraged and broken down. So you say you “Have to really prepare using your sense memory stuff.” What the holy hell does that mean? What do you … How? What?
Geena Davis:
So, yeah, I mean, the way I was approaching acting, I don’t know what you would label this, but was if you have to find in yourself a time when you were sad or just bring up the emotion so that you can then act with having that emotion. And so that’s how I always did things.
Geena Davis:
But after I majored in acting in college, once I was in New York, I had an acting teacher who was very big on using what you’re already feeling. He’d have somebody perform a monologue and then he’d say, “What happened to you before this earlier today? What happened on the way here?” “Well, I missed the fucking bus and I couldn’t believe it. I haven’t paid my rent,” whatever it was. And he’d say, “Do it again, but keep that feeling.”
Geena Davis:
And you realize that no matter what you think the character should be feeling, you can add how you are actually feeling. It sounds like it’s complicated, but it’s actually very simple. But it’s another layer. Even if it’s … Let’s say you’re doing a comedy, a funny scene, but your cat just died or whatever. I mean, just put that as a subtext layer in there and that will help because any kind of emotion is energetic. It’s powerful.
Geena Davis:
So anyway, so I thought I understood this and learned it, but then I had a screen test for the Accidental Tourist, this movie, The Accidental Tourist, and-
Amanda Doyle:
This little movie. This little movie.
Geena Davis:
This little movie.
Amanda Doyle:
Some people would say.
Geena Davis:
I hope they heard of it. So I had a screen test and I’d never done that before and I was very, very nervous. And so I was going to actually be on camera with William Hurt and I knew there were three other women that were having a screen test too. It was very, very, very nerve-wracking. And one of the scenes was very emotional. I had to be very, very emotional. So they’re getting ready, they’re setting up, and I’m behind the whatever and backstage and preparing, and I’m thinking about dead cats and whatever. I’m getting very, very emotional. And I’m all ready and then suddenly they say, “Geena, sorry, we broke a light. It’s going to be about 10 minutes.”
Amanda Doyle:
Hah.
Geena Davis:
It’s like, “No. No. Oh, no, I’ll never get that back again. What the fuck? They just ruined my life. Everything is ruined because now I won’t be able to … Actually, yes, they ruined my life. It’s terrible. And everything is ruined. I won’t get the part.” And so then I’m like, “I’m ready. I’m ready again.” They say, “Okay, Geena, we’re ready. It’s about 30 seconds.” And I’m like, “Oh, yeah, I’m so angry and I’m so upset.” And the hairdresser comes over to just touch up my hair right before I go out and she accidentally … You know those combs that have a point under-
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Geena Davis:
… they have a stick in the end? She pokes me in the eye accidentally.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, my gosh.
Geena Davis:
And I’m like, “You just ruined my life. Oh, my God. I was going to go out there and be upset and I’m still upset. Thank you very much. Here I am.” So-
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like misery inception. It’s like layers and layers. Oh, it’s so good.
Geena Davis:
Oh.
Glennon Doyle:
You thought was life.
Geena Davis:
That was such a lesson. In real time I experienced an incredible lesson.
Glennon Doyle:
I love it.
Amanda Doyle:
So is acting just tremendously terrible then?? Because, I mean, you’re conjuring up your most traumatic or upsetting emotional moments to be your engine?
Glennon Doyle:
And do you always have to think about dead cats?
Geena Davis:
No, no, no. And most scenes are most … That’s a rare, you now.
Amanda Doyle:
But I’m worried about you, Geena.
Geena Davis:
I’m sure there are actors who are miserable 95% of the time. But no, no, no. But you have to get yourself in different kinds of feelings. You have to get yourself happy. Sometimes, like in Thelma and Louise, there was a scene where Susan and I are driving along and it says, “Thelma starts laughing uncontrollably.” And I was like, “Oh, fuck. How do you laugh? First of all, how do you make yourself laugh out of nowhere?”
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, my God.
Geena Davis:
She hasn’t done something funny. I just start laughing uncontrollably.
Amanda Doyle:
I have to control myself enough to laugh uncontrollably.
Glennon Doyle:
Uncontrollably.
Geena Davis:
I have to be … And have it real, not that I’m, “Ha, ha, ha, ha,” faking it. And so I’m like, “Oh, how am I going to do that?” And so this time I had a completely different idea. I decided I was going to try getting drunk because you’re much more likely to laugh uncontrollably when you’re drunk, right?
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, yeah.
Geena Davis:
So I go to the props. Props guys will do anything you want. So I said, “I need a little alcohol in my trailer.” So they break a six pack and a bottle of vodka and put in my refrigerator. And so I sneak back there and I pound a couple of beers and do a shot of a vodka, and nobody knows, whatever. And I go out there and I get in the car and then I see Susan sitting next to me and she doesn’t know and I’m going to tell her that’s what I did. And I start laughing uncontrollably and I’m like, “Oh, this is such a great idea.” And so I just was able to do take after take and laugh uncontrollably because I have this secret.
Geena Davis:
And so-
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Geena Davis:
… Ridley was, like, “That scene went great.” And I said, “Yeah, no, I think I’m going to go lay down.”
Glennon Doyle:
That’s my favorite part. You got to take a nap. It was done for the day after that, right?
Geena Davis:
I couldn’t work the rest of the day, but he was like, “Who cares? It’s going to go fine,” whatever.
Abby Wambach:
I love this.
Glennon Doyle:
Can we talk a little bit about Thelma and Louise? Because-
Amanda Doyle:
For the rest of our lives.
Glennon Doyle:
For the rest of our lives. So clearly women have feelings about Thelma and Louise, right?
Geena Davis:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
One of the things I think is so cool is that in your filming of Thelma and Louise, you talk a lot about how Susan Sarandon, kind of, Thelma and Louise-ed you, helped you learn how to stop dying for politeness. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Geena Davis:
She Louise-d me in real life. I mean, she’s the sort of dominant aspect of the friendship. She’s a more assertive person. And I had thought before either of us was cast that I could probably play Louise too. I could play either part. I’d be a good Louise also. And then the second I met Susan Sarandon, I was like, “What was I thinking?” Because she’s so … You could imagine a person, she’s so poised and confident and knows what she thinks. And I was like, “Oh, my God.” And it’s so strange to think about, but I had never met or been in the presence, or at least, the extended presence, of a woman who didn’t start everything she says with, “I don’t know what you’ll think. This is probably a stupid idea, so ignore me if it’s no good, but could we possibly …” whatever. And I never said anything without putting a thousand qualifiers in front of it.
Geena Davis:
And as she was profoundly not like that. The first day I met her, we were going through the script with Ridley just to see if we had any little ideas or whatever. And on the first page she said, “You know what? I think we should just cut my first line. We don’t need that.” And I was like, “What?” And Ridley just said, “Yeah, yeah. No, that’s right. We don’t [inaudible 00:25:14].” And I was like, “What am I witnessing here?”
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh.
Geena Davis:
That she just said that and that he just completely behaved like that was normal. I just couldn’t believe it. And it seems so silly, though that I had such an extreme view of how much I could say in life and that I had to be very, very careful to make sure that people liked me, that it would go away in an instant if I said or did something that people didn’t like. So I took a bath in watching somebody move through the world in a very comfortable fashion.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s amazing that what the movie did for us is the same thing it was doing for you in real life. It wasn’t immediately embraced as much as it is now, right? Didn’t it take some time, like many movies or people that are trailblazers, did it take some time for people to catch onto? No?
Geena Davis:
It exploded. It was 31 years ago. It absolutely exploded, which we didn’t expect it all. Nobody making it thought, “No. Oh, wait till people get a load of this.” We just hoped anybody would go and see it because maybe they won’t like the way they drive off the cliff at the end. Oh, I gave you the ending away. But-
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, dammit.
Geena Davis:
… we were on the cover of Time magazine, pretty much, instantly, and there were editorials everywhere up and down about how this is a great thing and this is the worst thing that’s ever happened.
Glennon Doyle:
Of course.
Geena Davis:
It’s saying that women have to have guns and then it’s ruining everything. It’s ruining the world. So there were these extremes, but people were very, very opinionated about it. The title on Time magazine cover said “Why Thelma and Louise strikes a nerve,” and that’s how people perceived it, that it either struck a nerve in a good way for you or it was ruining society like feminists. We were real feminists.
Glennon Doyle:
We were real feminists. It was the society, once again, they strike again.
Geena Davis:
Once again, feminists around the world.
Glennon Doyle:
Which is actually what likely needs to happen. I keep thinking about it this week so much. I think one thing was to be able to see that, yes, the world does feel that dangerous to women in a way that we’re all gas lit into thinking whether it’s abuse, whether it’s catcalling, whether it’s not being believed, whether it’s being dismissed on the street with all the things that we got to see Thelma and Louise go through were so validating because we were just supposed to live that privately without anybody calling it out-
Geena Davis:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
… like you all did. Do you hear that often?
Geena Davis:
Yes. I think that is what happened. I thought a lot about, “Okay, this is a movie where the lead characters kill themselves at the very end and women come out cheering.” So how do you explain that? What’s it about? And then, of course, have come to realize, I’ve had plenty of time to think about it, that it’s because we retain control-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Geena Davis:
… of our lives to the bitter end. We will not relinquish control because with any other ending people will say, “I love that movie so much but it did have to end that way?”
Amanda Doyle:
Yes, it does.
Geena Davis:
Because we couldn’t give up control of our lives again. We’d been too free to ever do that again. So-
Amanda Doyle:
It’s the Alamo for women.
Geena Davis:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s the no surrender. We are not-
Geena Davis:
No surrender.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s the ultimate bodily autonomy moment, right?
Geena Davis:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like this empowering, beautiful, but horrific thing that in this world, the way it is, if a woman does want to have full control over her life and herself, she cannot exist here, right?
Geena Davis:
We get away. We’re getting away. We fly away. It’s a metaphor.
Glennon Doyle:
So one of the things I think is so interesting is that one of the reactions to Thelma and Louise was there’s too many guns, there’s too much violence, these violent women, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then there was a chart, of course, that you actually put in your book that showed … What was the movie that was out then? Lethal Weapon or something?
Geena Davis:
Lethal Weapon. Right.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my gosh.
Geena Davis:
It was Entertainment Weekly. They evidently thought it was so funny that people were saying, “This is the most violent movie. It’s so violent.” And so they made a chart comparing number of bullets fired, number of deaths, number of kickboxing fights, which Lethal Weapon did have and we didn’t. For deaths, it was three, including the two lead characters including themselves.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Geena Davis:
And the Lethal Weapon was, like, a hundred, whatever. And the bullets, I think it was, like, seven or something like that in Thelma and Louise. And they said, “Well, it’s about three or 400, but it’s hard to count individual machine gun bullets. So this has to be an approximation.” I thought that was a hilarious way to make the point that what are you talking about?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And I wonder if that at all planted a seed for your future work with the foundation, seeing that chart. Because years later you’re watching cartoons with your now 22 year old daughter and you noticed something-
Geena Davis:
20.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Oh, okay. 20. Oh, we have an almost 20 year old too. So you’re watching cartoons with her and you notice something which kicks off your whole next feminist Thelma and Louise situation. So can you tell us what you noticed?
Geena Davis:
Well, yes. So she was a little toddler and I thought, “Oh, this will be fun. We’ll watch a preschool show for the first time. This will be great.” And I have her on my lap and turn on what I think is going to be a great show. And within five minutes, maybe 10, I’m thinking, “How many female characters are there on this show?” And I’m googling it while she’s watching. And there was one female character and lots of male characters. And I was like, “Wait a minute.” I was shocked.
Geena Davis:
And then we watched some videos and we watched some animated movies and things like that and I saw it everywhere. It was in everything. And I didn’t intend like, “Now I’m going to make this my life’s mission. I’m going to take this to the Olympics or something.” But I couldn’t find one other person who noticed what I noticed. Not my feminist friends who have daughters and then nobody in the industry because I had meetings all the time. I’d always ask people, “Have you even noticed how few female characters appear in what’s made for kids?” And they all said, “No, no, no, no, that’s not true anymore.” And a lot of times they would say. “There’s been Belle”, as proof that gender inequality not being a thing.
Glennon Doyle:
I had a Disney princess friend. That’s the equivalent of-
Geena Davis:
Look, Disney’s doing a great job. Better than anybody else as far as that goes, especially in recent years. But who are the other female characters in that movie? And plus she has Stockholm Syndrome, let’s face it. So now I thought, “Okay, nobody sees what I’m seeing and, therefore, it’s completely unconscious. They do not know.” In fact, they think quite the opposite of, “I’m not doing that.” They think they are absolutely doing right by girls.
Geena Davis:
And so I thought, “All right. Now, I think if I could get the data, I could go directly to the creators because I probably can get meetings with people and share it with them in a private way. I don’t have to educate the public to convince them, like a shaming version of it. It’s just a very positive version.” I go there, say, “Hey, I’m your friend. I want to keep working with you. Hire me please. And also what do you think about this? Let me share this data with you.”
Geena Davis:
And the first meeting we had was like every other meeting we’ve ever had, except for people that have heard of what we do, which is their jaws are on the ground. They had no idea they were leaving out that many female characters. Said it was so profoundly unequal. So I had the advantage that it’s unconscious so data will help. The people making kids’ entertainments do it because they love kids and so this could very well have an impact. And turns out it did and the numbers have changed. So we’re very excited about it.
Glennon Doyle:
And what you noticed was what we were seeing on screen was not even representative of the world. It’s not like you were saying, “Put more girls in than boys,” because you were just saying, “Let it-
Geena Davis:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
… reflect the actual world.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Right?
Geena Davis:
Exactly. Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
And I think, Geena, about you as a kid feeling like … I always think the best leadership or use of a life always is like, “What did I need then when I was younger that I didn’t have?” And then creating it. And it’s so interesting when you think kids are watching TV and they’re not seeing girls take up any space. The rooms they’re seeing, the classrooms, the cartoons, they are, literally, seeing spaces where boys are taking up all the space and there’s two little girls in the corner. Don’t you think that could be tied to all of us girls feeling like we can’t even exist in rooms that just even our barely being there, is taking up too much space because we’re not reflected in these media spaces?
Geena Davis:
Oh, yeah, yeah. No, we were trained to have unconscious bias. Women and men, we all have it. Now, we actually have changed the numbers. The great thing about what we’re doing is you can measure whether it’s working or not. And so we have now reached parity in the lead characters in kids TV and kids movies. And we still have a little work to do in the world and also other profoundly underrepresented segments of society. But it is going in the right direction. So that’s very exciting.
Amanda Doyle:
Congratulations on that. When you started this work, it was 11% and just last year it’s 50:50 parity.
Glennon Doyle:
Geena, Gina Davis.
Geena Davis:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Gina Davis.
Amanda Doyle:
Gina Davis.
Glennon Doyle:
Gina, can you tell us about the CSI effect?
Geena Davis:
Yes, yes. So-
Amanda Doyle:
Love it.
Geena Davis:
… we studied the occupations of female characters on television, not all television. And there was one occupation. This is closer to when we started, it was very well represented. I would never have to lobby people to add more female forensic scientists because there were all those CSI shows and bones and all that stuff.
Geena Davis:
It turned out in real life that women were studying forensic science in college to an extraordinary degree suddenly. It went up to like 63% of people. They had to add courses in forensic science because there was such a high demand from women because they saw it on TV, “Wait a minute, I can be a forensic scientist? How amazing. I am going to be that.” So our motto is, “If she can see it, she can be it.” So it actually works.
Amanda Doyle:
And didn’t you find that 58% of women who were currently in STEM studies at the time of your research, they named Dana Scully from X-Files specifically as the reason that they were inspired to go into STEM?
Geena Davis:
That’s right. That’s right. I can’t remember if it was 58% or 63%, but that’s the one character for one show, and 58% of the women in STEM name that … I mean, imagine if there were more? We could change everything if we just showed that … It made it normalized that women and men,-
Glennon Doyle:
Normalizing.
Geena Davis:
… everybody can do whatever that is.
Amanda Doyle:
And that’s so important, I feel like that piece, because you’re saying please let this pretend scenario that you’re putting up on screen through TV intentionally reflect reality. You’re not saying give us something that isn’t even true yet so we can aspire to it.
Geena Davis:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re saying you are actually working in a retroactive way on our society’s progress because you’re not even showing us as we currently exist in the world.
Geena Davis:
Right. Right. I mean, what we’re asking for was profoundly not controversial. It’s just simply, reflect the world. The most shocking statistics are about occupations because, let’s say, for judges and lawyers, in the real world it’s something like 25% are women. And on screen in movies, it’s something like 15 to one. And so however abysmal the numbers are in real life, it’s far worse in fiction where you make it up, anything you want, but they don’t even reflect the sad reality. So it’s, kind of, shocking.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s amazing.
Geena Davis:
Very, very shocking.
Glennon Doyle:
But then if they did want to be a little more hopeful that life would imitate art if we put progressive situations on the screen, you also proved with Commander in Chief-
Abby Wambach:
I love that show so much.
Glennon Doyle:
… when you … And, by the way, I have been saying this fact in meetings for five years, I’ve heard you say this a long time ago, but the show Commander in Chief where you played a woman president, tell us about the poll that was done between Democrats and Republicans after watching the show. Just watching the show, the fake show about a woman president?
Geena Davis:
For one season, by the way, only.
Glennon Doyle:
One season.
Geena Davis:
A group called Kaplan Thaler did a survey and found that, again, something like 60% of Democrats and Republicans said they were more likely to vote for a female candidate for president because of watching that show. So if only I had two terms.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Geena Davis:
My administration was so short.
Glennon Doyle:
Teeny.
Geena Davis:
We needed more of it.
Abby Wambach:
World changing, though. World changing.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. We might not have to wait to put women presidents on TV until we have a woman president. We might have to put women presidents on TV so we could have a woman president, right?
Geena Davis:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Bring my show back. Bring back my show.
Glennon Doyle:
Come on, come on people.
Geena Davis:
Actually, I was thinking if … I mean, I’m a good age still to be president. I’m a perfect age.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re a good age for anything.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Geena Davis:
So let’s say, let’s assume I didn’t get elected and time has gone by and I realize I got to come back in and they need me and then my show goes back out of the air. And then-
Abby Wambach:
Let’s go.
Geena Davis:
Yeah, let’s go.
Glennon Doyle:
How do we make that happen?
Abby Wambach:
Let’s go.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, and tell … Speaking of characters on TV that allow you to become what you eventually will be, please tell Geena about your Dottie obsession.
Abby Wambach:
Well, when A League of Their Own was released, I went and saw it and it’s been the kind of movie that I play over and over again and I never get sick of it. There’s like five in my life. And I was just telling Amanda and Glennon this before we got on, that movie had such an impact on my life because the way that Dottie was … Geena, you and I are both big, tall women and I totally relate to all of the stuff you were saying earlier. And I don’t want to be the singled out one in the class. I, kind of, want to fit in because I’ve always been … The grass is always greener. So when I saw this Dottie Hinson be, not only badass, but also humble,-
Geena Davis:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
… that, to me, I was so afraid of being big because of this idea that I’d be cocky, seeming. And I was always one of the best ones on my team. And so I just told them that … I, kind of, dictated a lot of the leadership style that I had and much of what I saw Dottie bring to the Georgia Peaches.
Geena Davis:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
She was in your book. I ran your book over to Abby and said “You made it in Geena Davis’ book.”
Abby Wambach:
I was so excited. I was so excited. I’m not going to lie.
Geena Davis:
I know. I should’ve asked you if that was okay.
Abby Wambach:
Of course, it is.
Glennon Doyle:
Are you kidding?
Abby Wambach:
It was such an honor. I mean, listen, to have played for so many years for our country, having you as this inspiration that always, kind of, lived inside of me, that to me is one of the most special things.
Geena Davis:
Oh, Abby, thank you. Thank you. That’s incredible. Thank you.
Abby Wambach:
And you’re also a badass athlete of your own.
Geena Davis:
Oh, no, no.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, well, well.
Abby Wambach:
Because, you know.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s not polite to talk about.
Amanda Doyle:
Say more.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, what were you? 38 when you started taking up archery?
Geena Davis:
Nearer 41. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
41. Okay. I was actually … Just said this before to Glennon, I said, “I wonder what Olympic sport I could try out for now?” And she said, “None. You can’t.”
Geena Davis:
No, no, no. Well, archery is profoundly not age dependent. Profoundly not.
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Geena Davis:
Any age can do it. And I took it up at 41. And my coach said right in the beginning that it could actually be an advantage to never have done it because most archers have shot their whole childhood and whatever and you learned bad habits, you didn’t have good technique and you have to change that. So then when you’re nervous you might slip back into your old habits. And he said, “But you’re not going to have any bad habits to slip back into because you didn’t ever shoot before.”
Amanda Doyle:
Speaking of that coach and teaching you, you talk about a time where you were taking, is it called a shot? Taking a shot? What do you call it when you’re arching?
Geena Davis:
Taking a shot. Arching.
Amanda Doyle:
So you’re backstage taking a shot and it wasn’t a good one and your coach said, “What were you just thinking when you took that shot?”
Geena Davis:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
And you realized for the first time that you were thinking terrible things about yourself,-
Geena Davis:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
… “I suck. I’m horrible at this.”
Geena Davis:
Right. Right.
Amanda Doyle:
And you only realized that that was a constant loop in your head when he pointed that out. Was that true in other aspects of your life with that, kind of, negative self talk? Was it specific to that or did that pervade everywhere?
Geena Davis:
Oh no, it was just a running battle. I mean, every minute was negative, negative, negative. Self-talk about everything. But I didn’t realize … I just, kind of, wasn’t aware of it. And so once I became aware of it when I was shooting, then I’d go back to my normal life and realize, “Oh, I’m doing it in this situation too. I’m doing it on the set of whatever. People are going to find out I’m a fake actress. I don’t know what I’m doing. They’re going to all laugh at me.” Well, whatever it is.And so I’d started paying attention to that and he probably helped me with this technique. But if I heard myself say something like, “You’re an embarrassment. You suck or you did something wrong,” I’d say, “No, I didn’t do anything wrong. I’m doing the best I can. I’m doing the best I can. You know what? That was fine. I’m just doing the best I can.” And so a lot of that has gone away now. A lot of it’s gone away.
Glennon Doyle:
I love that. My therapist is teaching me, “Those are just neural pathways. You can change them-
Amanda Doyle:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
… if you just stop the thought. And then you say a new one. You’re just digging a new tunnel for your brain to start. Your brain goes to the least resistance.” So if you’ve been saying you suck, you suck, you suck your whole life, that’s where it’ll go. But if you work hard to arrest it, say, “Nope. Doing my best,” eventually you’ll start going there.
Abby Wambach:
I also want to just say for clarity you were able to become the 13th best archer in our country trying to make an Olympic team. I just want to be clear what-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what positive self talk will do, Wambach.
Abby Wambach:
41 years old you started a sport and became a top 13 sporter, a top 13 archer. That’s just out of my mindset.
Amanda Doyle:
After two years, she’s like, “How about I’ll try this?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, wasn’t it her second lesson?
Amanda Doyle:
Maybe I’ll make the Olympics.”
Glennon Doyle:
Wasn’t it her second lesson?
Abby Wambach:
It was her first lesson.
Glennon Doyle:
Her first lesson where she turned to the teacher and said, “What do I have to do to become an Olympian?”
Geena Davis:
No, no. I said, “How old is too old to go to the Olympics at archery?” And I mean, he says … I asked it at the first lesson. I can’t imagine that I really did. I must have waited till the second lesson to ask such an outrageous question because I hadn’t touched a bow meanwhile. I hadn’t touched it yet, let alone knew that I might be good at it.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my gosh.
Amanda Doyle:
I have a Dottie question. Could we go back to Dottie for a second? I was rethinking about Dottie when I was reading your book. And so she obviously, everyone knows, she has this husband she adores, she’s the best ball player on the field, she becomes the face of the league and it’s just very good things happen to her seemingly easily. And then you, Geena Davis, your first ever audition lands you in a role in an Oscar winning film. And then you, 41, damn near make the Olympic team. You are, literally, a genius.
And I’m just wondering, to the outside world, it might look like you, like Dottie, make a lot of hard things look easy. And I’m just wondering what is hard for you? What has come hard and not come easy? Where is this struggle in-
Glennon Doyle:
A world full of Kits want to know, Geena.
Geena Davis:
Well, I’m struggling hard to figure out what that would be. So that’s a struggle.
Amanda Doyle:
Use it, use it, use it.
Geena Davis:
I mean, so much. But actually the journey that I talk about in the book, which is I’ve narrowed down what my mission in life is, which is to close the gap between when something happens and when I react authentically to it. Because there’s such a huge, huge, huge gap. Usually I think a few days later I think of what I could have said and then but slowly usually until … Actually a certain percentage of time now I will say the right thing at the right time. I will say exactly how it … And that’s the goal. I mean, but it’s still very out of reach in some ways.
Glennon Doyle:
It feels like one of the themes of this podcast is always that we learn these rules when we’re little that keep us safe in our family. You learned you don’t say the thing, you are polite and even if you’re going to die, you don’t say the thing. And then as an adult, in order to be free, we have to break those rules specifically again and again. So what you’re saying is your life goal is to break the rule you learned as a kid, which is to say the thing in the moment that you need to say to have integrity, to have your insides match your outside?
Geena Davis:
Yeah, you’re right. You’re right. I never thought about it that way, but that’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. Giving myself permission or finding a way to … I think it’s better the way you said it, break that and change that dynamic. Yeah, for sure.
Glennon Doyle:
Because you said something about the spirit of the staircase. I love that. So I never heard of that before. Tell us what the spirit of the staircase is.
Geena Davis:
Well, I only learned that phrase recently. I can’t do a French accent. L’esprit de l’escalier is, literally, having regret on the staircase. So you’ve left the whatever it was, party or whatever, and only when you’re leaving do you realize what you could have said or should have said. So yeah, that’s what I lived.
Glennon Doyle:
Mine’s the spirit of the shower. When I am in the shower, I am so freaking amazing, Geena. I say all the things. I just … But it’s only in retrospect. So this idea, we call it smooshing the gap between the knowing and the doing. When you-
Geena Davis:
Squishing, is that what you said?
Glennon Doyle:
Squishing the gap.
Geena Davis:
Squishing?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Yeah. You said there was a moment, and I just love this example so much. There was a man who hugged you and he said, “Great to feel up Geena Davis.”
Abby Wambach:
Oh, God.
Geena Davis:
Yeah. It was on this project that everybody hugged good morning. It was completely normal. And I was hugging this person and he said, “Oh, my favorite part of the day when I get to feel up Geena Davis.” And he wasn’t feeling me. We were just hugging. But I instantly said, “Oops, that’s inappropriate,” and in a rather humorous way, but very specific. And he was horrified, “Oh, my God. No. What are you talking about? Oh, no, it wasn’t. I’m a feminist. No, no, no, no. I have so much respect and I would never. I would never.” And all day he kept coming back to it about how I took it completely wrong. And I was like, “Hey, no big deal.
Geena Davis:
It’s no big deal.” I just said, “But I think it’s all cool. I’m not mad or anything, it’s just a fact.”
Amanda Doyle:
But that’s the power of the unspoken thing. Everyone has agreed that no one’s going to speak it. And your offense was saying the thing out loud that everybody knew it was wildly inappropriate, but if you don’t say it’s not real.
Geena Davis:
Sure. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And it’s a moment that really stood out in my mind because it was one of the single moments or one of the first moments where I, literally, said what I wanted to say right on top of when it happened. And I was like, “I want to feel this.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Geena Davis:
This is so awesome.”
Glennon Doyle:
It is so awesome.
Amanda Doyle:
What does it feel like?
Geena Davis:
Amazing.
Amanda Doyle:
How does it feel in your body? It just feels-
Geena Davis:
I was so happy and proud of myself. I was like, “Oh, man.” Well, because I had achieved my goal and one instance at a time is what I’m trying to do. It seems like you guys know what I’m talking about. It’s so awful to only think later what you could have said or done.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s usually just you let yourself be uncomfortable so that somebody else could maintain some level of comfort that they never should have had in the first place?
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Right?
Geena Davis:
Yeah. Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I think we have our next right thing, pod squadders. I think we’re going to … Well, let’s see. This is how Geena says it, “I’ve come to believe that the whole point of my life is to close the gap between when something happens to me and when I react authentically to it.”
Geena Davis:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
So beautiful. And if that’s too hard, we’re just going to stop telling ourselves we suck and instead we’re going to say, “Nope, I’m doing my best.
Geena Davis:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m doing my best.”
Geena Davis:
Doing the best I can.
Amanda Doyle:
I love the oops strategy too.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s really disarming for someone like me who that feels like very Herculean to do what you’re saying, “Oops.” Like we can all agree. You just made a boo boo. Oops.
Abby Wambach:
Oopsy daisy. That’s inappropriate.
Amanda Doyle:
Oopsy daisy. You’re an asshole.
Geena Davis:
That’s inappropriate.
Glennon Doyle:
That might be better for me, right? The motherfucker, back off. I’m going to stick with oops.
Geena Davis:
It was, sort of, affectionate and cheerful. Oops, you made a mistake.
Glennon Doyle:
Geena, if you do decide to run for actual president we will be on your campaign-
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
… okay?
Geena Davis:
Awesome.
Glennon Doyle:
We are grateful for you and who you are in the world and we’re behind you. Thank you for leading the way.
Abby Wambach:
Totally.
Geena Davis:
Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, God. Thank you. Thank you very much. That’s very kind of you.
Glennon Doyle:
Pod squad, we will see you back here next time. Bye.
We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 studios. Be sure to rate, review and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn’t, don’t worry about it. It’s fine.