Sara Bareilles: How to Remember Yourself
October 20, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
There she is.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, my God.
Sara Bareilles:
Hello.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s been so long that we’ve wanted this moment.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh my God.
Sara Bareilles:
Oh, you guys have no idea. I’m so excited to be here.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God. Let’s just start, right now.
Sara Bareilles:
Let’s do it. Let’s jump in.
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. This is a big, emotional day for us, for Sister and Abby and I, because today we have Sara Bareilles on our podcast. And Sara, I want to tell you a quick story that Abby and I just decided we would tell, we weren’t going to tell the story.
Glennon Doyle:
But when Abby and I first got together after a little while, I actually had to sit down with Abby, and by the way, I was just learning how to be in a relationship-
Amanda Doyle:
For the first time.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, yeah. And I didn’t know how to do it. And so I sat down with her and said, “Here’s the deal. I’m scared. I need you to stop talking about Sara Bareilles.” Sara, Sara, it was a serious talk.I was like, “I feel like you get so emo… Like, I don’t know what’s going on with your feelings about Sara Bareilles, but I’m uncomfortable with it.” This was dead serious. “I know people are allowed to have their celebrity crushes, but we could meet her and I don’t want to deal with what’s going to… I just… Why do you start crying every time you talk about her? It makes me uncomfortable.” And so this is the conversation that we had.
Abby Wambach:
Listen, Sara, I’ve been to your shows and I’ve been a huge fan of yours for a long time. And what Glennon didn’t understand at that point is in the LGBTQ community, you’re a hero for us. And I’m actually probably going to get emotional talking about it.
Glennon Doyle:
See?
Sara Bareilles:
Oh.
Abby Wambach:
No, it’s because people don’t remember what it was like before 2015 and before marriage equality happened. And you release an album that had these songs on it, Brave and I Choose You, and you made this video of two couples’ proposal video. And the thing about with these songs specifically for me and how they impacted my life is that it didn’t just normalize like gay culture and make people tolerate us, it was a celebration of us. And I think I hadn’t seen that. I hadn’t-
Glennon Doyle:
From a straight person?
Abby Wambach:
Especially from a straight person. I think that that’s one of the things that I admire so much about you is that you’re able to talk about the problems that your friend, specifically, that you wrote Brave for, the anthem that so many of us gay folks listen to and celebrate in ourselves. I think that Glennon, at the time, didn’t realize how important you are to the gay community and-
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I had just arrived on the scene.
Abby Wambach:
So I had to give her the information that she needed. You are an incredible artist. And you have not just touched my life, but all of our gay lives. And by the way, all of the straight people out there who might not have known that this is something that can be celebrated, so I thank you. Welcome to our show and-
Glennon Doyle:
Sara Bareilles is a Tony Award and Emmy Award nominated actor and Grammy Award-winning singer and songwriter. On Broadway, Sara composed music and lyrics for Waitress, in which she was also the lead. Sara also produced original music and executive produced the musical drama series, Little Voice. She plays Dawn Solano on the Emmy nominated musical comedy series, Girls5eva. And stars as the Baker’s Wife in the Broadway revival, Into the Woods. Welcome, Sara.
Sara Bareilles:
This is the greatest already. I’m such a massive fan of this show and of the work and your activism and your advocacy, and I’m so excited to make this connection. You have all made a huge impact on my life. So mutual admiration society here. I’m just really happy to be here.
Glennon Doyle:
And Sara, this is my sister.
Amanda Doyle:
And do you have a crush on any of us, Sara?
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, yeah. We should probably get that out of the way.
Sara Bareilles:
All three of you.
Glennon Doyle:
All three of us?
Amanda Doyle:
All three.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God. Most of the sentences that you say make my little, sensitive heart just feel so much less alone and so seen. This one, something you said recently, “I just felt like the idea of having to be alive for the rest of my life was an impossible thing to hold.” How do you possibly get through so many days in a life? Sara, thank you for that. What is so freaking hard about being alive?
Sara Bareilles:
Oh my God. All of the things. All of the things. And I sit in an extraordinarily privileged position. I have an awesome life, objectively speaking. I think as a sensitive person, it’s chaos.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Sara Bareilles:
It’s the fact that we have to learn how to hold the truth of what is, which is that it’s all chaos and it will be forever until we go away. And who the fuck knows what happens then? So where are we supposed to just sit back and relax? And I’ve never been a person who… I’ve had to come to terms with, I think I’m still trying to come to terms with, I’m just not that lighthearted a person. I’m just not. I never really have been. I always like to think of myself as being that way. But I might just not be that lighthearted, you know?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Easy breezy is not what you’re going to ever land on.
Sara Bareilles:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
And doesn’t it confuse you? I know I’ve talked about this so much, but I used to sit with therapists and they’d tell me I was anxious and I’d be like, “Are you sure or are you just not paying attention? Are you sure I have the problem or are you just not concentrating?”
Sara Bareilles:
That’s true. I co-sign on that. It just seems like there are too many things to be worried about at all times to possibly sit back and kick your feet up and whatever. I just can’t. I can’t unplug from it. I’m trying, I’m working on it, making peace with the fact that if I can at least stop punishing myself for being someone who is a little bit oriented towards the worrisome.
Sara Bareilles:
But I’ve learned at least as a songwriter, I get to be a conduit for that. I get to be the vessel that holds all of that stuff and try to move it through. And if it could offer comfort or connection for someone else, I feel less alone. Like what you were saying, Abby, is that I really reap the rewards and the benefits of the connection that comes with what happens when I share how vulnerable and scared and fucked up I feel all the time. People are like, “Oh yeah, me too.” And I’m like, “Great. We’re all just totally winging it here. No one has any answers.” And we’re all pretending we do. If at any moment we’re coming across as well-adjusted, it’s all fake.
Amanda Doyle:
Glennon and I really resonated with your experience of being at UCLA for five years on account of you spent a year abroad. But it was too claustrophobic to approach the people to get your credits for that year abroad, so you just actually went to school for another year when you got back.
Abby Wambach:
What!
Sara Bareilles:
100%. 100%. I was too nervous to call the Centro Studi where I went to school in Bologna. I didn’t go to Italy and just screw around for a year. I went to classes, I took exams, I did all the things that students have to do. And I got back and they’re like, “Oh, you have to get this information from the study center in order to get your credits transferred.” And I was like, “Nope, I can’t. I can’t possibly call. I can’t do that.” So I just went to UCLA for an extra year.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God.
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Can we just talk about that for a second? Because this is a thing. So what is this Sara? Is it social anxiety? What is this thing that makes it so hard for us to just talk directly to a person we don’t know?
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah. I think it’s a little bit of social anxiety. I won’t even know the questions to ask. I think I’ll feel stupid. I think I’m really afraid of feeling stupid in front of someone. I feel stupid all the time, but I’m really afraid of showing someone that I feel stupid. Does that make sense? I don’t know.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Totally makes sense.
Abby Wambach:
I hate feeling stupid.
Glennon Doyle:
So you’re saying, “I need something from you that I don’t know what I need.” And that moment of I need something from you is totally vulnerable and you’d rather just go to school for another year than deal with that vulnerability?
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah. All my friends graduated. I was alone. It’s a deep choice. It’s a deep choice. But I’m thinking about even now as an adult, I’m 42 years old and I’m doing a little bit of renovations on a little apartment I’m turning into a music studio so I have a work space. And I talk to the contractor and there’s a thing that happens where I just glaze over… Where I’m just flooded with, “There’s so many things I don’t even know or understand about this.” And it’s not that it’s rocket science. I just glaze over and I’m trying to appear, like I’m nodding and I’m paying attention.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Sara Bareilles:
I’m like “Mm-hmm.” And all I want him to do is leave. All I want him to do is leave-
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, stop talking.
Sara Bareilles:
… so I can be alone with the fact that I don’t understand anything that just happened. And what am I going to do now? Because I didn’t take the time to understand anything that just happened.
Sara Bareilles:
So then I don’t call him back. And then I start over and I have another interview with another contractor. So I think I’ll try again. You know what I mean? It’s not high functioning.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I do. Every time I ask someone for directions, I immediately go, “Where do I go?” And then I put on my face of, “Do I look like I’m understanding.” And then I just go home.
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Or every time anyone tries to explain anything to me, I’m only thinking, “Do I look like a person who looks like they’re concentrating?”
Sara Bareilles:
It’s not good.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Sara Bareilles:
It’s not good.
Abby Wambach:
All right. So years ago, you made the move from LA to Broadway and you tweeted about the decision and your tweet reads like this, “I love Glennon Doyle, and she says, ‘We can do hard things.’ And so here we are, do the hard things.”
Abby Wambach:
So when you’re down, how do you know what kind of change you actually need? Whether you need to move to New York or break up with your partner? How do we know when we just need change or when we need help?
Sara Bareilles:
Well, I think there’s an argument that help is change. I think as someone who is really learning to ask for help, I’m really not very good at about it.
Sara Bareilles:
I have tended to be an insulated person. I was a really scrappy, young artist, faced a lot of challenges coming up as a young woman, getting told no, dealing with all kinds of body image issues and what happens when you’re in a public facing position.
Sara Bareilles:
And I think I have a real, “I’ll do it myself,” attitude. So I think change and help in my little world, my little universe might be synonymous. And I always think change is good. I mean, I don’t like it. I can’t say that I’m like, “Oh, I love it when things change.” But I actually think that’s where we grow.
Sara Bareilles:
It’s not healthy to believe there’s a plateau anywhere in your future, that anything’s going to just finally settle down into fill in the blank. That is not what we’re here for. It’s not what life does. We’ve been taught that over and over again. So I think that the more we can lean into the fact that it is all fluid. My God, what have we learned from the last few years? Just like you think, you know what anything looks like? No.
Glennon Doyle:
No, never.
Sara Bareilles:
The answer is no.
Glennon Doyle:
That sounds like one of your survival strategies. Is it just resisting the idea that there will ever be any solid ground?
Sara Bareilles:
Well, it definitely feels like, I think on a good day it’s something that I can find comfort in. I mean, I’m someone who started meditating a handful of years ago and that’s such a tenet of… It’s just like groundlessness, get comfy with the fact that everything you love you lose, every… That’s just what it is. It’s sand in our hands. We can’t hold any of this. So what other horrifying, terrifying thought can you hold in your mind at any time?
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Sara Bareilles:
It’s the worst.
Glennon Doyle:
It just felt very excited because I was like, “If there was a crush, it’s over now because my wife is not going to subscribe to that idea.”
Abby Wambach:
I can’t.
Glennon Doyle:
She’s like, “I will hold on to everything.”
Sara Bareilles:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Oh God, I’m sweating just hearing you say that.
Amanda Doyle:
I have a question about the change is help and the help is change because you made me think of something I haven’t thought about before. You said lots of times when these sisters of anxiety and depression come to you, that you try to break up with your partner.
Sara Bareilles:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And that you usually do. And that most recently in the pandemic you have this beautiful partner, Joe, and you tried to break up with him.
Sara Bareilles:
Oh, yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And he said, “Relax, go visit with your friends, and then come back.” So that instinct to change, how do you know when that change is help or when that change is a symptom of the problem?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, good. I wondered that one.
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah, I’m in that question. I mean, I continue to be in that question of… Now you were talking about didn’t know how to be a partner. This is a big place for Sara to learn how to grow up a little bit.
Sara Bareilles:
I’m someone who has had long partnerships in my life and loving partnerships… I almost wouldn’t call them quite partnerships. I’ve had long relationships and this is my first partnership, which is a different entity, it’s a different organism. And I think not to any of my previous boyfriends’ discredit, I just don’t think I was available to it. I just wasn’t available. I was so protected and guarded.
Sara Bareilles:
And Joe, for many reasons, I think because of where I was at in my life and just the alchemy of he and I… I mean, I’ve tried to break up so many times. And the first time, I was like, “The lights went out.” That’s what it felt like to me. I was like, “I really, really liked you and now I don’t and that it just went away and I don’t like you anymore. And the lights went out and that’s how it feels. And that’s what’s true.”
Sara Bareilles:
And I remember we were on a street corner and he was passionate about it and it was the first time I heard him really advocate for himself. And I thought it was so sexy and it was a little moment for us to really see each other. But he’s like, “If the lights go out, you go into the fucking basement and you check the fuse box.” And it was like, “Oh, okay.” And he’s like, “If we’re not compatible or whatever, that’s fine. But I’m not falling for this bullshit of, ‘I don’t know, it’s just gone, the feeling’s gone.'”
Sara Bareilles:
It was just a very immature coping that I had of scared, separate. I feel scared, separate. And so that is a thing that comes up for me over and over again. And I’m really trying to work through it. And Joe is my partner of choice at this moment and neither he or I know if we live off into the sunset together or not. But it’s a choice to be like, “Okay, let’s not do magical thinking about it.”
Abby Wambach:
Oh.
Sara Bareilles:
You know what I mean?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Sara Bareilles:
That’s one of the things I work with with my therapist, because I’m someone who likes a little magical thinking.
Glennon Doyle:
Yep.
Sara Bareilles:
But it’s not always serving the greater good in my life.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Sara Bareilles:
Did I answer a question? I have no idea.
Amanda Doyle:
That is fascinating.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, you did.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, you did.
Amanda Doyle:
I know, it’s beautiful and perfect because it’s, “And both.” It is help and it is a symptom. And all of those things relate to each other.
Amanda Doyle:
You say that it’s about being immature, but you’re doing that for a reason. It could be, actually, a really wise response to provoke to test the sturdiness of that connection. I mean, if you say, “The lights are off,” and he’s like, “Absolutely fucking not,” you’re like, “Oh, that’s new information.”
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, that is sexy.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s sexy.
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah, that’s good stuff.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. I did that all the time. My first marriage, I was abandoned. I tried to break up with my current husband 150 times and it was about-
Sara Bareilles:
The test.
Amanda Doyle:
… if I push, are you going to fall? If I push, are you going to run? Whatever we’re trying to get from that is interesting.
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Sara Bareilles:
Well, and I think as independent women, there’s a certain layer of self-protection that’s happening. But also, I think it’s a little bit of an underlying belief that maybe I’m not okay. The wiser thing is to be like, “Look, you can come or go. I am fine. I am here. I’m fine.”
Sara Bareilles:
And so let me just stay and see what this is and really talk about where do we miss each other? Where do we disconnect? Why do we disconnect?
Sara Bareilles:
And now I find that really fascinating to be in a relationship that has a lot of juice. And it’s not easy all the time. We laugh a ton. We also have friction, which I have always equated to being an indication of something’s wrong if there’s any conflict. But it’s actually so lovely to be able to be like, “That really hurt me when you did that. Why did you do that?” And vice versa. But we’re learning, we’re like little baby birds. I’m a little baby bird in this sense. I’m like, “Look at me! I’m in a relationship!
Glennon Doyle:
“Yay! I’m going to try not to fly away!”
Sara Bareilles:
“Tweet, tweet!”
Glennon Doyle:
I love it.
Sara Bareilles:
“I’m doing it!”
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so beautiful.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re such a baby bird. I wanted to thank you on behalf of myself and a lot of little baby birds who have recently started meds for anxiety and depression. And just to thank you for the way that you put that out in the world and it was beautiful. And you were hesitant to go on them at first. So what was the breaking point for you and what has that journey been like for you since?
Sara Bareilles:
Oh. Yeah. So I started having anxious episodes in my early twenties. The first time I remember having disassociation, I was probably in my fifth year of college. Wait-
Abby Wambach:
Was this the UCLA year?
Sara Bareilles:
Remember the five.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. “Damn you, Italy.”
Sara Bareilles:
My solo year at UCLA.
Glennon Doyle:
Can you tell us what does dissociated mean? I know, unfortunately, but for anyone who’s not an anxious bunny bird, can you explain?
Sara Bareilles:
Oh, yes. So the way I describe it is that it’s a little bit like you leave your body and you are your observer and you can’t… I remember trying to explain it to my mom. I was like, “I can’t stop being more aware of the fact that I’m standing here in this kitchen talking to you than just having the conversation.” I couldn’t stay in my body and stay in the experience or stay in the room. I was just watching myself have this experience of life. And it was terrifying. And I thought I was going crazy. I thought I was developing schizophrenia. I didn’t know what any of it meant, but I was terrified.
Sara Bareilles:
And I started going to therapy and I had a terrible therapist. But the act of verbalizing what was going on inside me was part of what was healing. I just started saying it unapologetically and she fell asleep or whatever the fuck she did.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my god.
Glennon Doyle:
She was not anxious enough.
Sara Bareilles:
Not anxious enough. Anyway, this is a long-winded tangent. I started having these anxious episodes very early and I managed them through therapy, through meditation, through exercise. It was deeply uncomfortable and manageable. And I just chalked it up to being like, “This is just who I am and I’m going to have these really hard times.”
Sara Bareilles:
And as I got older and wiser, to a certain extent, sometimes they were easier, sometimes they went on way too long. I mean, when I look back now, I’m like, “I just wish I would have tried this as an option.”
Sara Bareilles:
But the breaking point for me was in the lockdown and the pandemic, the claustrophobia and just the rattling of dread was so loud and oppressive. And I really wanted to leave Joe. I really wanted to… I don’t even know what, I don’t even know what I would fill in the… “I want to leave you and fill in the blank.” I don’t have an answer for that. I was just terrified all the time.
Sara Bareilles:
And he was very generous for a lot of it. And we got to a point where he’s like, “I can’t do this. I can’t just…” Oh, it’s going to make me emotional. He’s like, “I can’t keep being your punching bag,” because I would just tell him, I would vomit all of these fears on him. And it was more than anybody should have to take. And so I finally decided, “Okay, well, this is the one thing I haven’t tried.”
Sara Bareilles:
And oh my God, the relief. The relief of the returning to myself. I was so scared that it was going to make me disconnect and go further away from my spiritual center. I always felt like my sadness was my identity. It’s part of how I see the world. This layer of melancholy is why I’m a writer. It’s why I think deeply about the pain of other people and I want to interpret and I want to hold it for you. And I felt like if I abandoned that sadness, somehow I was abandoning my essential self. But I actually came back and I was like, “Oh my God, I’m here. Here I am.” This person can laugh.
Sara Bareilles:
And I still have terrible days. I’m still very much in touch with my sadness and my anxiety. There’s not a blanket of bliss put over anything. I don’t feel like another person. But it was a really hard decision to make. I felt like I was cheating. I felt like I was skirting some excavation I should have been doing on myself, I was taking a shortcut.
Sara Bareilles:
And I’m so glad that I took the leap and I’m still on them. And Lexapro has been an incredible tool, whether I’m on it for the rest of my life or not, I don’t know. But it’s just a tool. And I just want to encourage people, you can just see if it helps and it might not. You know what I mean? I just was scared to try. And I’m so grateful that I did because the relief is as wide as the universe.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you for that.
Abby Wambach:
Thank you for that vulnerability.
Sara Bareilles:
Ugh, I’m just a crier.
Glennon Doyle:
No, God.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, I get it. Me, too.
Amanda Doyle:
Wow. “I remember myself,” is what you said. “I remember myself.” And so for anyone listening who feels like they’ve forgotten themselves, it’s a beautiful [inaudible 00:26:54].
Glennon Doyle:
Is that how you felt, Sissy?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Because I felt like you were getting emotional during that.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
You felt like it would be cheating, too. Right?
Amanda Doyle:
I didn’t really feel like that, I’m all for shortcuts. But I think I was afraid I’d feel changed, that the magic of me would be different. Like what you’re saying, Sara, except I’m way less talented. But the idea-
Glennon Doyle:
And you felt like maybe you’d be less efficient, right?
Amanda Doyle:
Or just, yeah, the me-ness. But really, it helped me remember myself. I felt so distant from who I was and that I was almost a new somebody with all of those things attached. And I feel like it brought me back to me.
Amanda Doyle:
But when hearing you talk about Joe is so beautiful and the ways that you have partnered through all of this are amazing. And you said something about him that was so beautiful. You said that being loved by him feels like he can just exist next to you in the pain and that that love and that presence is allowing someone the dignity of their own discomfort. And that, I feel like we could talk about that for three hours.
Abby Wambach:
Totally.
Amanda Doyle:
The way that you put that, that’s the reason it feels like when people come to you and they try to fix or they come to you and try to help, it’s stealing your dignity. Can you talk about what you mean by that?
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah. I had a therapist for a long time and that was a phrase that she used a lot and it has stuck with me. Because I’m a fixer and it’s a real practice to just be next to someone in pain. Because it’s uncomfortable. Not only just from a place of you love this person so you don’t want to see them in pain, but it’s also ego, it’s thinking that “I know better, do what I did.”
Sara Bareilles:
I’ve dealt with this… I have a close friend who’s going through some shit and I’m having a hard time not… I’m just trying to pull. And really that’s not for me to do. That’s real friendship, real love, real relationship is, to a certain extent when someone’s landing in a place of harm, of course, intervention is necessary. But I think just allowing someone to move at the pace they’re at, you try to meet where they are. And yeah, Joe’s not a saint, he’s not good all the time.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m sure. Nobody here-
Amanda Doyle:
You don’t have to tell me, I’m always on the un-saint train.
Glennon Doyle:
Nobody here thinks-
Amanda Doyle:
Always.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Well, okay. Just the dignity of discomfort, too, though. For people who use melancholy, sadness, pain as part of their process, the dignity of discomfort, to me it’s respecting the process. It’s like if we went up to a cocoon or a chrysalis and we were like, “Hey, it’s too dark in there.”
Amanda Doyle:
Wrap it up!
Glennon Doyle:
Wrap it up! Bashing the chrysalis and being like, “Get your ass out of there,” because that feels uncomfortable for me to see you so smushed.
Sara Bareilles:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Right?
Sara Bareilles:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
And then the freaking, whatever the stage they’re in, they’re like, “Well, I guess I’m not going to become a fucking butterfly now.”
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
“I’m becoming something in here.”
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Gosh.
Glennon Doyle:
And because you can’t handle this chrysalis part-
Abby Wambach:
I can’t handle the chrysalis.
Glennon Doyle:
… I can’t become a butterfly?
Abby Wambach:
It’s so hard for me.
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Watching suffering is so impossible.
Sara Bareilles:
But also as chrysalis people, we have to know when to… Not everybody needs to hold the mess either. I’m having to learn of like, “Oh. I’m working through some shit. Give me a minute. Let me go just walk this off or take a day,” or whatever it is. And because it might not be your math problem to solve.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Sara Bareilles:
It’s something like you said in process. But it’s really easy. I mean, as you’ve seen, I just vomit everything on everyone at all times and yet often feel like totally alone, where I’m like, “Nobody understands me!” But I’m trying so hard to share everything authentically all the time.
Glennon Doyle:
Are you an Enneagram four?
Sara Bareilles:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Got it.
Abby Wambach:
It’s interesting though. I have a follow up here because both of you are chrysalis folks. You both chose people who want to help and fix. I won’t speak for Joe.
Sara Bareilles:
No, you’re right.
Abby Wambach:
But would you ever come out of the chrysalis to become a butterfly? Would you ever choose to leave the cocoon?
Amanda Doyle:
Are you in a chrysalis coma? She’s not there for the rest of your life.
Abby Wambach:
This is my confusion is because I’m like, “All right, so you’re having a time, but life has to continue.”
Glennon Doyle:
Does it?
Abby Wambach:
You do deserve to become a butterfly.
Glennon Doyle:
Does it?
Abby Wambach:
And by the way, both of you, because you’re both artists, the world needs you to become a butterfly for them to actually experience what you’ve learned in your cocoon.
Glennon Doyle:
I hear you. I do hear what you’re saying. I see what you’re laying down, Wambach. I do. Sara, you said-
Amanda Doyle:
We are birdies, we are butterflies
Glennon Doyle:
Birds and butterflies.
Sara Bareilles:
Everybody’s got wings around here.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. I just want to ask, you said my anxiety is usually attached to some unexpressed desire, some wish, some resentment that’s building, something I’m not communicating. Can you give me an example of that from your life?
Amanda Doyle:
Feels true. Feels real true.
Sara Bareilles:
So I am someone who my battery recharges in solitude. I need to be totally alone, not even with Joe, not with friends. I need to go have a nice wander and just feel the edges blur a little bit. And that is a thing that I have had a really hard time learning to ask for. And I think I have some old shit about what it means to be in relationship. And I’m living with someone for the first time. I was 40 before I ever moved in with anybody, I was terrified. I’m like, “I love being alone.” So sometimes it’s just space. It’s just I need space. I bought an apartment, I bought myself a place I can now go to away. Sometimes-
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, this is the music studio that you’re redoing?
Sara Bareilles:
This is the music studio that 100% has a bedroom and a kitchen and a TV and all the things I’m going to need to go just be like, “I’m going to take the dog and go away for a minute.”
Glennon Doyle:
Record. “I’m going to record.”
Sara Bareilles:
“I’m working on a project.”
Glennon Doyle:
Which is my sanity.
Amanda Doyle:
The project is my sanity.
Sara Bareilles:
But sometimes it’s asking for space. It’s just space without an attachment of guilt. It doesn’t have to mean anything. It’s not space with a capital S. It’s just I need some room.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Sara Bareilles:
It’s just going to fill my tank. And I don’t ask for that easily and that’s something I’m really working on. My anxiety oftentimes can feel like claustrophobia. It gets really close to that feeling of walls closing in, like something’s getting choked.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Sara Bareilles:
And I don’t even know… I don’t equate it as much to like, “Oh, I didn’t tell him that it really pissed me off when he said this.” It’s not as much that. It’s just the sense of it’s my spirit that just needs some room. And I’m trying to learn to ask for that more.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a good question to ask yourself when you’re feeling anxiety.
Sara Bareilles:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
“Do I have an unexpressed need?” Because sometimes anxiety can feel like, “Oh, I’ve chosen an inner conflict over an outer conflict.”
Sara Bareilles:
Yes, totally.
Glennon Doyle:
There’s an outer conflict I need to have and I just keep eating it and choosing the inner and I need to make it outer.
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah. Because doesn’t it feel like sometimes, or at least for me, it’s placating. It’s trying to absolve anybody else of their discomfort and so what you do is you’re just suppressing and eating all of the things that… Like, “What do I actually want?” “Oh, you want this for dinner?” “I really wanted this other thing.” Well, get two fucking dinners.
Abby Wambach:
Yes!
Sara Bareilles:
There’s no rules about it, but those very rudimentary things for me are new learning. That is just new programming that I can be sovereign in love.
Abby Wambach:
Oh. Oh, that’s the name.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, shit.
Abby Wambach:
That’s the name of this podcast.
Glennon Doyle:
And oh my god, I already have the entire album for you of song titles, just based on the last 20 minutes.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. That’s right, that’s right.
Sara Bareilles:
Great. Well, I’m about to write a record, so here we go.
Glennon Doyle:
Yay!
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. Well, we got the apartment, so we’re going to have to write a record.
Glennon Doyle:
Sara’s going to have so many new albums just because she wanted to be alone.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s going to be your solitude. It’s going to be very prolific.
Sara Bareilles:
Write another fucking song.
Amanda Doyle:
You said that knowing what you want, but you’ve also said that this idea feels so simple. “‘What do I want?’ Sometimes I find that question to be impossible to answer. I can’t possibly know.”
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
So do you have to learn how to figure out what you want before you can get to that place where you can name that need?
Sara Bareilles:
I think it’s helpful for those around if you can know what you want before you start asking. For me, that disconnect of not being able to know what I want for something stupid, for lunch, right? What do you want to eat? Not knowing that is usually a symptom of like, “Okay, I’ve been going away from myself for a while.”
Sara Bareilles:
For example, in this moment in my life, I have been in post-production. We made a live capture of the Waitress stage production. And I’ve been in post-production for that and doing Into the Woods in the evenings. And Joe is gone, so I’m taking care of this really wonderful dog that we got together by myself.
Glennon Doyle:
Louie?
Sara Bareilles:
Louie. So I was at this place where I was so… And I know a lot of people listening deal with this where you’re just… Just my head is just barely… I’m swimming so hard and I just have no extra minutes in the day, every moment is spoken for. And there’s a little bit of a high that comes from that too, of like, “Look what a badass bitch I am. I can get so much done.” But I’m not thriving by any sense of the word.
Sara Bareilles:
And I realized that I’m just so focused on meeting the needs around me and the expectations and what’s being asked of me is that I go away from myself somehow. Self-care is just such an overused word.
Sara Bareilles:
But those ways that we tend to our needs, that we nurture our beings, those are the practices that very quickly, I think, dissolve when you just start feeling like it’s important that I am this place at this time and I’m meeting this person’s needs and I’m showing up with pastries because I’m going to have a really fucking great attitude today.
Sara Bareilles:
All the things that you’re doing that you get off on because you’re doing such a great job. And yet, I was just withering. I got sick, I get canker sores when I’m stressed out, my mouth hurts. I’m trying to sing. And all those things and then your body talks to you and you’re like, “You’re not paying attention.” It’s not equilibrium, that’s not balanced.
Sara Bareilles:
So I do think staying in touch with that desire, staying in touch with your wants, is an indication of paying attention.
Glennon Doyle:
When you’re paying attention to yourself and you’re remembering yourself, what are the things that make you feel like you’re remembering yourself and nourishing yourself?
Sara Bareilles:
Playfulness, joy, a spirit of, “I like me.” That’s why I like being alone. I get a kick out of myself.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, yes.
Sara Bareilles:
I think I’m kind of wonderful. And when I lose that, when I get into those really critical-minded ideas about all of the ways I’m not living up to my potential or I’m not meeting someone’s expectations, I’ve really abandoned that part of myself that knows how to love Sara. And not Sara Bareilles, but Sara.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Sara Bareilles:
The person that’s kind of caught in between these worlds. And whether you’re a public-facing figure or not, there’s our personhood that we meet the world with, this role we play, and then there’s that little kid that grew up into that body. And I think there’s something really precious about maintaining a connection to that little spirit.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, I love that so much.
Glennon Doyle:
May we all get a kick out of ourselves.
Amanda Doyle:
I get a kick out of you.
Glennon Doyle:
Get a kick out of you.
Abby Wambach:
I have a question because we have a little artist in our family, our middle child, Tish.
Sara Bareilles:
Oh, I know. Very talented, very talented. Oh, come on. I’m such a fan.
Glennon Doyle:
No! Oh, she’s going to die.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Glennon Doyle:
She’s going to die.
Abby Wambach:
So for a person where you’ve described life in the world as chaos, how does music and art make your life a little bit easier?
Sara Bareilles:
Oh, I just would melt into a pool of sadness without it. It’s like an organizing principle. It makes sense, not of everything, but it will just make things bite size for me, so I can take this one experience that’s tragic and overwhelming and I can try to hold it.
I think about it as these songs, they’re little vessels. They’re just containers that can try to capture the essence of an experience. And then I move on to the next one. And then I’m impacted by something that I’ve seen and I tried to capture that and hold it here. But it just makes me feel like I can organize the madness.
Sara Bareilles:
And that was another thing that was so scary to me about the pandemic was that shit got so big and then I had nothing to say. I was very struck by a lot of artists who had a lot to say and they were organizing and they were writing songs about all the things. And I was just like, “I don’t have anything to add yet. There’s nothing to say. I’m just too…” The feelings eclipsed any ability to try to metabolize it out loud.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you remember when that changed?
Abby Wambach:
Or if?
Glennon Doyle:
Do you remember a moment? Well, she’s writing, again so I figured. Did you have a moment where you were like, “Oh?” Or do you not notice that transition back to creativity, back to having something to say?
Sara Bareilles:
Well, I’m going to be honest, I’m working through some real insecurity. This is the first time I’m writing on medication and there’s a part of me that’s questioning, is it making an impact on my ability to synthesize and to have a creative output? But when I go back, I try to just keep a voice memo and ideas come through. They come through when they come. When I go back and listen, I feel like, “No, there’s something here. There’s something here.” And I need to just walk forward and lean into that help. Collaboration I think it’s a newer space for me. And that’s also been really helpful to just be validated and work with other artists who can relate.
Amanda Doyle:
If I can offer some validation on this for you, I was going back and reading a lot of what you said. And when you originally signed with your first record label, you cried. You were so upset when you first signed because you were so afraid that they would take something from you that you didn’t want to give. And you said this prayer, “Please let me remember me.” And then it struck me years and years and years later when you were talking about your meds and what that did for your life. You said, “This medicine helped me see myself again without the cloak of depression and anxiety. I remember me.”
Sara Bareilles:
That’s awesome. That’s really-
Amanda Doyle:
And so you are you, and no one’s taken it from you and your meds aren’t taking it from you. And you, Sara, are the writer of Sara and it’s going to come.
Sara Bareilles:
Thank you for that. That’s really sweet. I did not think about that. That’s very meaningful. Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
So Brave, that song, do you want to tell Sara? I know you want to tell Sara about the concert. Just go ahead.
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
Just real quick.
Abby Wambach:
So I don’t know if you remember but it was a concert in Buffalo, New York and it was raining and a rainbow showed up.
Sara Bareilles:
Yes!
Glennon Doyle:
During Brave.
Sara Bareilles:
Outdoors, yeah? I mean, obviously, that’s where rainbows happened.
Abby Wambach:
Yes, yes! It was outdoors. I was there. That’s all.
Sara Bareilles:
No?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, that’s all.
Glennon Doyle:
I just-
Amanda Doyle:
Your little queer heart just burst into a thousand little butterflies, didn’t it?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Sara Bareilles:
I totally remember that.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Sara Bareilles:
I totally remember that. Oh that was-
Glennon Doyle:
A rainbow during Brave. Brave is about a lot of things. One being saying on the outside who you are on the inside.
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Would that be correct?
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Great, great. It’s a definition of Brave from the song. What is something the world still doesn’t know about you?
Sara Bareilles:
Oh?
Glennon Doyle:
Something on the inside that hasn’t been translated, maybe something that’s true about Sara but is not yet publicly true about Sara Bareilles?
Sara Bareilles:
Oh, God. What is something that’s true about me? I don’t know if people don’t know it, but I just still struggle with a tremendous amount of insecurity and extraordinary dedication to not believing in myself.
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s change, let’s reframe it. We’re just committed, Sara.
Sara Bareilles:
I am committed-
Glennon Doyle:
We’re are committed.
Amanda Doyle:
… to doubt.
Abby Wambach:
Hold on. My question is though-
Glennon Doyle:
Another song title right there, Committed to Doubt.
Abby Wambach:
What the fuck will it take, Sara?
Sara Bareilles:
I know, I know?
Abby Wambach:
What will it actually take? I ask this to Glennon all the time, because I don’t have any insecurities about-
Glennon Doyle:
No, she doesn’t.
Abby Wambach:
… what I did as a soccer player.
Sara Bareilles:
I just think that’s so awesome and it’s incredible. It’s incredible.
Abby Wambach:
But part of that was because I had so many other women around me throughout my career looking at me saying, “You are one of the best.” And so I had that affirmation for a long time. But what will it take? This is my question to Glennon.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t think anything… Okay. I think that’s the wrong attitude that you’re having. I think-
Amanda Doyle:
She humbly submits, “Your ass has the wrong attitude!”
Glennon Doyle:
No. We don’t need Sara Bareilles to suddenly be a different person. We need Sara to keep being Sara. We need Sara with her commitment to doubt, to continue to show up and make shit, even in her insecurity, even in her doubt. That’s what we need to see people doing.
Abby Wambach:
Of course.
Glennon Doyle:
We don’t need Sara to become a different person. What’s inspiring to me is people who continue to be themselves, to continue to not know, to continue to have no ground beneath them, and to still show up and be their butterfly selves.
Sara Bareilles:
If I could reorganize the atoms in my being and be like a “Fuck it” kind of gal, I would.
Glennon Doyle:
Same, same.
Sara Bareilles:
Oh my God, I would. I wouldn’t even know how to begin. But I do think you’re right, Glennon. I was on tour one time in Australia and I was having a real shit show of a time and a lot of anxiety. And I was in a bookstore and I saw this book called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. I felt so dopey. I was reading this book at lunch covering the edges, like “Feel the fear and do it anyway!”
Sara Bareilles:
But it became my mantra for a little while because I was having these really obsessive thoughts that if I left the hotel I’d get lost or I wouldn’t be able to find my way back. It’s things that are not attached to reality in any way. It has stayed with me where I’m like, “You can be scared and do fucking thing.” You can just let fear be a passenger and not let it stop you from your life.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Sara Bareilles:
That would be the only tragedy that could happen is if I don’t engage with the world because I’m too afraid of what it might mean.
Glennon Doyle:
What do you think we’re so afraid of? If I’m talking to therapists, I’m talking to an astrologist, I’m talking to whoever I’m asking to tell me what the fuck wrong with me,-
Sara Bareilles:
Totally.
Glennon Doyle:
… there’s usually a moment of, “Where’s this fear coming from? What are you so afraid of?” And I’m actually trying to figure that out. I don’t know. What are we so afraid of?
Sara Bareilles:
My current therapist encourages me to… I think it’s a little kid thing. My little Sara is really scared of getting left behind or being abandoned in some way. She’s like, “Look at her. Get a picture out. Bring her into your consciousness and tuck her behind you and say like, ‘I got you. Stay with me. You get behind me and this wise-minded grownup is going to handle it and you don’t have to be in charge.'” You don’t let the kids drive the bus. It’s not safe.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s good. That’s good.
Sara Bareilles:
So I’ve been thinking a lot about that and hand on your heart and just like, “You’re not going anywhere. I got you.”
Glennon Doyle:
Beautiful. Sissy, you got anything to say before we wrap this up? Because I need to stop so I can go listen to it.
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, thank you.
Sara Bareilles:
Aw.
Amanda Doyle:
Thank you. You’re so wise and-
Glennon Doyle:
Wonderful.
Sara Bareilles:
… generous and-
Glennon Doyle:
Just wonderful, Sara.
Amanda Doyle:
Thank you.
Sara Bareilles:
Thank you all.
Abby Wambach:
I just knew we would be friends one day.
Glennon Doyle:
Here we go.
Sara Bareilles:
I’m so… I would love to.
Glennon Doyle:
Is it real now? Okay.
Sara Bareilles:
Really, I can’t thank you enough. This podcast and all the three of your presence and work in the world has been such a companion for me and good times and dark times. And really, it’s important work you’re doing and I’m grateful that you invited me to share for a moment.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you for being Brave.
Sara Bareilles:
Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
… even when you’re scared.
Sara Bareilles:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Hand on the heart, everybody. Pod Squad, hand on the heart, deep breath, think of your 10 year old self.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, that little baby girl.
Glennon Doyle:
And tell that baby that you have their back. Okay?
Amanda Doyle:
I got you.
Abby Wambach:
I got you.
Glennon Doyle:
I got you.
Abby Wambach:
I got you.
Glennon Doyle:
I got you. We Can Do Hard Things, see you next time.
Glennon Doyle:
We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn’t, don’t worry about it, it’s fine.