Alex Morgan: Believe in Your Own Greatness
October 18, 2022
Abby Wambach:
So we spoke to Alex Morgan prior to the publication of the 319-page report of independent investigation to the US Soccer Federation, concerning allegations of abusive behavior and sexual misconduct in women’s professional soccer. So we don’t talk about that in this conversation, and I wanted you to know that. But with each page of that report, I felt ill, enraged, heartbroken, and resolute.
Abby Wambach:
So I want to start this episode by saying unequivocally that the only acceptable response to the investigation is radical change and unflinching accountability. Once and for all, we demand that the lives of all players, from youth footballers to professionals, are finally and systematically protected over the careers of predators.
Abby Wambach:
During this very hard time in the women’s soccer community, I’m grateful to share this very special conversation with one of my favorite footballers, Alex Morgan, a woman who I know is making this sport better for future generations every single day.
Abby Wambach:
Welcome. Welcome back, everybody.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re so good at that.
Abby Wambach:
It’s so weird to do it. You’re always the one. Do it.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.
Abby Wambach:
We have Alex Morgan. You all know this because it’s who you clicked on to listen to this podcast. But Alex is one of my favorite athletes for a lot of reasons. But I think number one is that she was a really young, new kid on the block when I was an old veteran on the national team. Alex Morgan, you are a two-time FIFA Women’s World Cup champion, Olympic gold medalist, the UEFA Women’s Champion League’s champion, an NWSL champion. Is there anything that you have not championed? She is the leading founder of TOGETHXR, with the X that replaces the last E, a lifestyle and media company with a focus on youth and equality storytelling. As a mom to Charlie… Ugh…
Glennon Doyle:
Charlie…
Abby Wambach:
… your child. Alex is tackling motherhood while continuing to be a force on the pitch. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve even seen Alex as on fire as she is right now, scoring so many goals in the NWSL for her team, the San Diego Wave. Alex? Freaking thank you for being here.
Alex Morgan:
Thanks for that intro. That was really nice, Abby. And I am so happy to be here. Glennon, it’s always a pleasure to see you and talk to you. But Abby, everyone knows how much you mean to me and just the effect you’ve had on my career, so it’s so nice to talk to you because I have obviously looked up to you for so long.
Glennon Doyle:
Aw.
Abby Wambach:
Well, that feels very good, especially as you age in your retirement. It’s like, “Was I important to anybody? Did any of it really matter?”
Alex Morgan:
Oh my God, that’s ridiculous!
Abby Wambach:
So that feels good. That does feel good.
Glennon Doyle:
Can you both explain what the hell you were doing together on the field? Because I just learned, Abby was explaining it to me recently, in technological, the soccer terms. And I thought it was so beautiful what it’s called, what you were together, which you were a two front? Which feels like-
Alex Morgan:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
… such a beautiful thing. Can you describe, what is a two front? What were you doing on…
Abby Wambach:
Alex, do you want to take this? What is a two front? For the peoples?
Alex Morgan:
We were basically just dancing together on the soccer field and enjoying each other’s company, and just helping each other be as successful as we possibly can be together. And uplifting each other. So that’s pretty much what it was in non-soccer terms.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Oh my god…
Abby Wambach:
That’s a good way.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Okay, you said you had strengths that Alex didn’t have, and Alex had strengths that you didn’t have… And so together, you were able to work together and score the goals.
Abby Wambach:
And create a really hard-to-defend-against two front. Technically what a two front is: the formation of your team, sometimes you do a 4-4-2. Nowadays, you’re seeing a lot of 4-3-3s, which would be a three front.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, well I’m dead inside already.
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
So, let’s go back to the… So-
Alex Morgan:
So, would you like me to-
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, please.
Alex Morgan:
… explain?
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Alex Morgan:
We were the two forwards, so we were working in tandem. And I felt like we were just complimenting each other. Yeah, Abby’s good in the air. And so I was like, “I’m not going to touch any ball that goes in the air. Abby’s going to do that, and I’m going to work off of her.” And so, we would talk a lot together. And I’d be like, “Head it to the right,” “Head it to the left,” “Head it behind you,” “Settle the ball” or whatever it is. And she would basically just do that. And she would do all the hard work. And then I would just run in behind the back line and try to score the goals. And then we would both just get lots and lots of goals, Abby a lot more than myself, but-
Abby Wambach:
Ah, well, I’d played a little bit longer than you at that point. You’re getting up there though. How many goals do you have?
Alex Morgan:
I’m not sure. But as a mom, I think that I’m getting upwards of six or seven. And I think 13 is the number to beat as a mom.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, cool.
Glennon Doyle:
Whoa.
Abby Wambach:
I love that.
Glennon Doyle:
I can’t wait to talk about momming and little Charlie, with whom we are all completely obsessed.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Alex Morgan:
Me too, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
But before we get into that, I want to talk to the pod squad about your friendship. Alex, Abby loves you so much. Every time we watch a game that you’re in… Okay? You do have to be in the game for this to happen. But she just yells, “Alex, Alex, Alex.” And she’s trying to get, I think, whoever is on the field to kick it to Alex.
Abby Wambach:
Energetically, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re energetically trying to get the ball to Alex. When you have a penalty shot, the whole family has to stand up. She thinks it’s disrespectful if anyone sits on the couch, so we all have to stand until you’ve scored the ball. Can you-
Abby Wambach:
Scored the ball, by the way.
Glennon Doyle:
Scored the ball. Scored the-
Alex Morgan:
Goal.
Glennon Doyle:
Scored the goal, right. Can you talk about how your friendship happened? And do you remember the first time that you met and what that was like?
Alex Morgan:
When I met Abby, it was my first camp with the national team. So I got called in, and I didn’t know anyone. I was also 19 years old and just starstruck and also super intimidated by everyone, especially Abby. And she was actually the nicest person. She was so welcoming. And she was someone that I felt like I could gain confidence from. From her leadership, her demeanor, everything she brought on and off the field, it helped me just gain confidence on the team. Then she started just saying these things like, “You’re going to score more goals than I’ll ever score. You’re going to have way more success than I ever will. You’re the next one that everyone’s going to look for to score the goals, to be the person to bring everyone a World Cup or an Olympic gold medal.” And she just always would uplift me and give me so much confidence. And in that way, it was just so amazing to have someone so selfless because when you’re playing a team sport, of course you want the team first. You have to think about what the team needs over individual needs.
Alex Morgan:
But every person has selfish feelings, deep down inside. And personally, we all want ourselves to be as successful as possible. We all want to score goals. We all want to have the glory. So for her to be so selfless, in a way that I had never experienced before as a teammate, I was just floored by that. And it would just drew me towards her as a great friend and mentor.
Glennon Doyle:
Aw. What about you, when you met Alex? How did that all happen?
Abby Wambach:
Early 2010. It was around the time that you got called in. I remember one of the first practices, Pia came up to me, and she said, “This kid, Alex Morgan, she’s just raw. She’s got to learn a lot. Don’t coach her. Just don’t say much to her.” She told me that. She pulled me aside, and I was like, “What the fuck?
Glennon Doyle:
Why? Why?
Abby Wambach:
I don’t know. I think that she thought maybe that I was going to intimidate her or put too much pressure on her at such a young age. And I couldn’t have disagreed more. And I just didn’t listen to Pia.
Abby Wambach:
Because when you’re 19, and you come on a team that’s already set up, going into the World Cup 2011, it’s hard to break into that team, let alone gain the respect of some of those older players. And so, I was noticing a lot of the older players getting a little bit more frustrated with Alex than they should have been.
Glennon Doyle:
Were they frustrated, or were they threatened?
Abby Wambach:
Threatened.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That’s what frustrated always means.
Abby Wambach:
Threatened is definitely a better word. And so, of course when you feel threatened, you find any little problem.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Right? This one specific play, it was Alex’s first camp. She was able to get inline, which was at no angle to the goal. And she just rips this shot with her left foot. I had never seen somebody be able to score at such a horrible angle. It’s a very rare shot. And she scored it because she had this power and this speed. And so, from then on, I just kept trying to tell her. When some of the players would be like pass, I just kept whispering to Alex, “Shoot.”
Glennon Doyle:
Don’t pass it. That’s awesome.
Abby Wambach:
“Be selfish.” And I could see something in her that was very different than any other new kid that ever came on the team. It was like she was able to hold an immense amount of pressure and also perform, which is rare. So then she steps on the field in 2010 against Italy. I think you get on the field in the 88th minute or something. And she scores a goal in extra time for us, to give us a one-zero lead against Italy.
Abby Wambach:
And then we had to come play them in the home match to qualify to actually get into the World Cup. I know this is a lot of information, but I just remember Alex being more confident than I was at 19. More capable.
Glennon Doyle:
Have you always felt that confidence? What was it like? Our kid is, right now, going to a new brand new school. And she’s the only new person. So all I’m thinking right now is, what was it like for you to be a new young star on this team of stars?
Alex Morgan:
It was just me fighting day to day, not to be a star, but to be included and for myself to feel validation that I belonged. Because there was a lot of days that I would show up and I was like, “They are so much better than me. I’m literally faking it ’til I make it, at this point.” I didn’t feel like I belonged for the longest time. So it wasn’t trying to take anyone’s spot. It was just trying to help myself feel like I deserved to be there, when I surely didn’t in the beginning.
Glennon Doyle:
Did you have a moment where you finally were like, “Okay-
Abby Wambach:
Oh, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
… I belong here.”
Abby Wambach:
This is good.
Alex Morgan:
I think in 2011 we had myself and Kelly as the newer players. And as we went through the tournament, I grew into it as well. And I remember, I think it was a third game we play against Sweden. We actually lost in the group stage. And I didn’t play, and it was my birthday. And I was so disappointed. And I was like, “How could she do that to me? It’s my birthday and I deserve to play” and this and that. And I was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You don’t deserve anything right now. You’re still the youngest player. You’re still just trying to make a name for yourself, and you’re trying to contribute as much as you can.” So it was kind of like, okay, you need to be in your place a little bit. So I felt like, through that tournament, that was a defining moment for me to at least have the confidence to be like, “I deserve to be on that field, and I wasn’t. And how dare the coach not play me?”
Alex Morgan:
It might not have been the right way to think about it, but then it gave me that confidence that well, next game, I got to prove why she needs to play me. And the next game after that. So I think that’s when I definitely felt like I belonged.
Glennon Doyle:
I love that. It’s the moment you go from, “I’m just so lucky to be here. I’ll just be quiet and hope no one notices me” to “Why the hell aren’t they putting me in?” It’s like an internal voice that told you, “Oh, I belong here.”
Abby Wambach:
You want me to tell you when I knew Alex belonged?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
I think that I realized I had yet to feel this since Mia, but that feeling where my life was a little bit easier on the field.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Abby Wambach:
And it was because Alex took up a lot of attention of a defensive backline. So during that World Cup in 2011, you scored some big goals. One, the most amazing goal ever. I just will never forget it, in the 2011 World Cup final. I thought that this new kid on the block was just going to score the game-winning goal. We ended up losing that game in penalty kicks, which was super sad. But I knew that the way that she stepped up, through the knockout round stages of that tournament, made me be like, “Oh yeah, here this kid is.”
Glennon Doyle:
So then how did you not feel… Because I understand the feeling threatened by a new person. If we suddenly had a new host on this podcast, and they were amazing, I just can’t imagine being like, “You’re going to be better than me. You’re going to be way better than me.” I feel like-
Alex Morgan:
That’s what I’m saying. Isn’t that crazy that Abby was like that? In no way was her job threatened, ever, throughout her entire career. But you’re still fighting for a spot on the field. So for her to feel so confident in herself and her abilities… And I don’t know why she did that to me. Why were you so nice? What if we played a one front instead? You know what I mean? And not to say I would’ve ever taken your job. But yeah, like you’re saying Glennon, how was she so selfless and so uplifting of me and other people? Because being threatened is kind of something that you can’t help it. Just deep inside of you, you know you care about yourself more than people, a lot of times.
Abby Wambach:
No, it’s-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s fair enough.
Abby Wambach:
… a hundred percent true.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
I think that, when I think back at that time, I knew what I needed when I was your age to feel confident and to feel like, oh I belong here. And I needed people to tell me that.
Glennon Doyle:
Did you have that? Did somebody do that for you?
Abby Wambach:
Mia did.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, for sure.
Glennon Doyle:
Interesting. So Alex, do you find yourself trying to do that with younger players now?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Who is your Alex Morgan? Mia was my mentor. Not that I’m going to claim myself as yours. But who are you looking after? Who’s looking up to you as a mentor?
Alex Morgan:
It’s interesting because I think Mia is around 10 years older than you. Is that right?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, eight.
Alex Morgan:
Okay. And you’re around 10 years older than me. And Mal Pugh is around 10 years younger than me. And she came on this team super young, had a lot to learn. But again, raw talent. And she’s someone that I know is just going to have an incredible career; already has on the national team. So it’s kind of interesting, just the levels of the next generation carrying the torch almost and carrying the team. And I feel like she’s one player that has already made a huge impact but will have a huge career on the national team.
Abby Wambach:
I wonder if Mia would agree with this, but a reason why I was able to give you so much confidence is because I had already developed so much of my own. That it was like I was one of the best, I was scoring a lot of goals, and I just needed other people to feel what that felt like. And I knew that that feeling could give somebody a lift in their own life. And I also knew that it would make us a better team. Score more goals, win more championships. It’s self-serving.
Glennon Doyle:
But you’re saying that you had to have a level of security-
Abby Wambach:
There was a-
Glennon Doyle:
… in yourself and your own talent, to give it away.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Which is why acting threatened is always a sign of insecurity.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Right?
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
So do you guys have a best moment together? Or any moment that stands out, Alex?
Alex Morgan:
The one moment that I remember is in 2011 we were crushed by losing in the World Cup final. It was crushing. We deserved to win, and it was honestly the most disappointing, saddest moment of my life up to that point. And then in 2012, we come back and we win the Olympic gold medal in London. And I think you were number 12 because you had to change for the Olympics. So we stand up on the podium in number-
Abby Wambach:
Oh, I was next to her. Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Alex Morgan:
And she was next to me because Abby’s 12, and I’m 13. And just holding hands all together, standing up on the podium, I just couldn’t believe that we had gold medals around our neck, after such a disappointing year, the year before. And I think that was just a moment of just big sister, little sister, kind of like, “We did it together. You did it for me, I did it for you” type thing.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Ugh. I’m actually tearing up, just listening to you tell-
Glennon Doyle:
I knew you were going to cry-
Abby Wambach:
… that story.
Glennon Doyle:
… during this interview, by the way.
Abby Wambach:
And I just remember that moment being so much more special because Alex scored in the final 2011 World Cup final against Japan, that we lost. I scored an extra time on Alex’s cross. It was a huge-
Glennon Doyle:
A cross is a pass. A long one that goes all the way across the field.
Abby Wambach:
It was a huge devastation. So for us to come back and win the following year and win gold in London was such a big deal. My favorite moment, actually… Obviously winning gold is great. But my favorite moment, a real reason why I think we were able to get into the finals, was Alex scored the latest goal in the… I think probably, still to this day, in the history of Olympic soccer. She scored against Canada. It was the craziest game. She scored with her head. And I think I remember I ran up to you, and I was screaming, and I was like, “I am in love with you right now.”
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, that’s right. You told me that.
Alex Morgan:
Oh yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Alex Morgan:
I remember that.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, that was a good time.
Glennon Doyle:
We wanted to talk about, and I want you to ask this however you want to ask this, but we were talking about the other night about how you and Alex have never talked about the end of your career and how you were struggling so hard. And whether Alex noticed that or how that was for her, watching you kind of crumble for a little while.
Abby Wambach:
I’ve been a hundred percent open and honest about what was happening at the last couple of years of my career with my addictions and alcohol issues and all of you were there to see it up close and personal. And I guess I wonder A, how did that feel for you to see this person who had offered you so much confidence and mentored you and helped you along the way… See me in such a horrible, sad place?
Alex Morgan:
I never judged you because I knew that what good of a person that you were, that you are. So it made me sad because that just hurt me because I just wanted you to be happy. And in the World Cup in 2015 in Canada, you weren’t. People only dream of playing in something as big as that one time in their life. It doesn’t matter what sport you play or what job you have. But just getting to the top of your job or career in this four-week period, and it should have been the best moments of your life, of our career. And I think it was maybe one of your worst because you were struggling so much. It was just really hard to watch that because it didn’t matter what I said or what anyone said. You had to go through it. It was just really sad to watch.
Alex Morgan:
But I felt like all I could do was just be a good friend. And I thought I was at that point. I’m just so happy that you had to hit rock bottom and in a way that you were able to recover and find Glennon and find yourself and just get back on the track that Abby is. Because you’re just an amazing person, and you shed so much great light on this world. And in that time, you weren’t able to necessarily do that. So it was just incredible, the comeback that you made. But at that time, it was hard to watch. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
In the sports world, what do you do when a teammate is struggling with mental health stuff? Is there resources?
Abby Wambach:
I’m sure there’s more now.
Glennon Doyle:
What do you do? Is it a team meeting?
Alex Morgan:
No. It’s tough because you need to focus on yourself, especially in a big tournament. But then you also want to make sure that your teammates are feeling focused and ready for the games. We do have sports psychologists. And we have resources. But it’s tough. And we actually saw that. We saw a lot of us, myself included, and some of my teammates struggling with mental health during the 2021 Olympics in Japan because we couldn’t even leave our room or her hotel. And we weren’t struggling in the way that Abby might have been. But it was really hard on a lot of us. And none of us really knew how to approach that.
Alex Morgan:
And we had our own rooms, and we had to stay to those rooms and make sure that we were abiding by protocol. And because of that, we just were so isolated. It just really was not good at all for mental health. I just put that behind me because I got home, and I just felt so good to be back with Charlie who was barely a year old. I couldn’t bring her. But everyone individually struggled in that month in Japan. Everyone deals with it differently, but it’s not like a team huddle, like “Let’s rally around Abby and help her feel better.” It’s tough because sports are isolating sometimes.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow. What do you do for your mental health? What kinds of things make you feel grounded and better?
Alex Morgan:
I think that as I’ve gotten older, I’ve just gotten better having a more balanced life in general. So I think that that really helps my mental health. If soccer were to be taken away from me tomorrow, I would be okay with it. I think a lot of people wouldn’t be, if their job was taken away from them. Even though I’ve worked on it my whole life and that’s the one thing that I know and love so well, I would be okay with it because I have so many other parts of my life that are so great as well and that bring me so much joy. So I think for me it’s just having a balanced life. And that includes family. Family is everything to me. Even Abby knows, my dad has probably been to every single soccer game: Japan, China, Australia, Canada, it doesn’t matter. Brazil. It doesn’t matter where we go. My dad is our number one fan. He literally is everywhere.
Alex Morgan:
Italy, when I scored that goal that Abby was talking about. I really, really care for my family and cherish those relationships. And I think that helps me be pretty even keel and help my mental health stay a little more level.
Abby Wambach:
That’s amazing. I have to ask because I have had a complicated relationship with the game, with the love of soccer. It offered me a lot. It gave me a job identity, all of these things. But I didn’t really love it.
Glennon Doyle:
The game.
Abby Wambach:
The game, all the way through. And then you get good at something, so you do it. I have to know, do you love playing soccer? Is it something that you could say you love?
Alex Morgan:
I love it more when I’m scoring more goals.
Abby Wambach:
Truth.
Alex Morgan:
But in general, do I love it? I think I do. Sometimes I don’t. But I’m okay with that. Sometimes I just wake up, and I don’t want to play today. But it’s never that I don’t want to play for the rest of my career. And I think that’s okay. And I think I’m at a point now, if I don’t want to play for another year or two or three years, I’m okay leaving soccer.
Alex Morgan:
And I’m not at that point right now. But I think a lot of athletes struggle with leaving their sport. And I do love soccer, but I would be okay leaving it. And Abby, I knew that about you because I had read your book, and we’ve talked a lot in the past. But it is interesting because you’re told, time and time again, that you have to love it, or you do love it. It’s forced on you, like, “Well, your number one thing is to find joy and to love the sport.” And it’s like, well yeah, but then eventually you’re getting paid to do it. It’s what your job is. It’s what you know. So do I love it anymore, or am I just doing it because it’s put in front of me, and I’m not good at it, I’m great at it? So do I just keep doing it because of that? I think overall I do love it, but not always.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, there’s good parts and parts that you would rather do without, but that you got to take it all. It’s all part of the package unfortunately.
Alex Morgan:
It is. It’s part of the package. But it’s exhausting, especially with the national team. It’s exhausting. You can’t just bring 50% of yourself one day. You can’t have a bad day. And that is just so exhausting. It just tears you down every single day. Mentally, physically. It’s hard to be on your game every day. It’s impossible. You’re setting yourself up for failure. Every day.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh-
Abby Wambach:
Every single day.
Glennon Doyle:
…God.
Abby Wambach:
What I will tell you is that it does get better in retirement because you do get to show up at a workout and go, “I am here. That’s all I needed to do. I got here. I don’t have to perform. My heart rate doesn’t have to hit a certain fourth or fifth percentile zone.” See, I can’t even remember the terms.
Alex Morgan:
That’s great. That’s good.
Abby Wambach:
So-
Alex Morgan:
I love that.
Abby Wambach:
… the future’s bright.
Glennon Doyle:
I just feel like a bunch of fairies just got their wings. My insides are lit up. To hear Alex say, “I’m not good at this. I’m great at this.” I am going to say that to myself in the mirror in the-
Abby Wambach:
Oh.
Glennon Doyle:
That is so-
Abby Wambach:
You should.
Glennon Doyle:
… amazing to hear a woman say that.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God. Okay, when you talk about relationships and friendships and team, one thing I don’t understand… I’m sorry. I’m sorry because I talk to Abby about this all the time.
Alex Morgan:
I love the innocence of it. It’s beautiful, really.
Glennon Doyle:
How do you have friends who you are constantly trying to beat at things? A lot of you-
Abby Wambach:
Competing for the same job.
Glennon Doyle:
You love each other so much. A lot of you love each other so much. And you are also trying to kick each other’s asses constantly. Right?
Alex Morgan:
Mm-hmm.
Glennon Doyle:
How does this work? Because the thing about women is like, “Oh, there’s no scarcity. Well, there’s enough for all of us.” But actually that’s horseshit sometimes.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
No, there’s not. There’s a two front. There’s not an eight front. So, how do you maintain friendships with people that you’re constantly competing with?
Abby Wambach:
That’s a good question.
Alex Morgan:
Honestly, sometimes it’s hard, especially when you play the same position as somebody. But again, for me, it’s exhausting to think about someone else more often than myself.
Abby Wambach:
Whoa.
Alex Morgan:
And like Abby said, at the point she got, to where she felt really confident in herself, in her position on the team, I’m at that place. And I feel like, for many years, I did just compare myself to others, and I did just want to find the flaws that someone else had rather than the reason that I am great at what I do.
Alex Morgan:
And it’s just tiring. You get over it. I think I’m at a new point in my career where, if someone’s better than me, then they’ll have to prove it, and I’ll have… We’re on trial every single day. And what? Just because they’re better than me means that I hate them? No. There might be, inside, sometimes if they miss a shot, and I’ll be like, well, sucks. But at the end of the day, I just have to work on myself. It’s so tiring to focus on others more than yourself.
Abby Wambach:
Especially when-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so good.
Abby Wambach:
… the choice is out of your control. The coach is deciding these things.
Alex Morgan:
It’s so out of your control. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It’s crazy-making.
Alex Morgan:
Honestly. So then, to pick apart someone’s personality, their play on the field, their friendships and relationships they have off the field, it’s ugh. It’s tiring.
Abby Wambach:
Before we get into the conversation talking about Charlie and Cervando and your family, we have to talk about the equal pay settlement that has recently happened. And for those listening who may not know, the Women’s National Team reached settlement with US Soccer Federation for $24 million. What is the agreement?
Alex Morgan:
We settled with US Soccer in court for a settlement of 24 million plus equal pay and equal treatment moving forward. The 24 million is a compromise for the past money that they have failed to pay us equally to the men. It was much greater than that. If you take into account World Cup pay, I think it was around 60 million, I want to say. We compromised and settled on 24.
Glennon Doyle:
What worked? Nobody in power is ever like, “All right, let’s just do the right thing.” That just has never, ever happened. What did you all do differently this time that made them say, “All right, fine”?
Alex Morgan:
We’ve always had a player association, but it’s never quite operated anything more than getting a new CBA collective bargaining agreement with US Soccer for a little better pay, a little better treatment. So that’s what our players association has always operated by. We hired an executive director to basically manage our player association. We now have a bunch of different sectors of our player association and a bunch of different committees that a lot of players are on each committee. I’m part of the CBA committee and also on the legal committee.
Alex Morgan:
So we hired lawyers, we have our executive director, we have a publicist in Molly Levinson, who absolutely crushed the game and made US soccer look pretty terrible in the news. And anything that they wanted to say, in terms of not wanting to pay us equal, were dragged along. I think that was a big thing. But it was just a long fight. Abby was there when we started the EEOC claim. And then as an extension of that, we filed a lawsuit. And I think just taking that step was just an extension of what Abby and then the previous generation, Mia and them, were all fighting for. It was everyone putting things in place for us to finish the job. So it’s hard to say, “Oh, we did it all” because no, we didn’t. We just finished the job that they laid the foundations for.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, that’s so cool. You do think that the public… I’m just obsessed with the… You do think that the PR agent, with the publicly telling the story, held them accountable in a way that was maybe a new strategy for you all?
Alex Morgan:
Yeah, I think the power of social media played a huge role. And I think that having the fans and the media on our side also played a huge role. Because public opinion is so important to companies. Because US Soccer is the main governing body of soccer in the US. Every single kid that signs up to play soccer has to pay into this governing body. Every coach that wants to get their license pays into this governing body. They oversee everything, so public opinion matters to them.
Abby Wambach:
For sure.
Glennon Doyle:
I want to talk about you as a parent. Abby came home recently from a walk and was like, “I saw Charlie on Strand.” And I was like, “Charlie? Was Charlie with any grownups?”
Abby Wambach:
It was a couple months ago. Your dad-
Alex Morgan:
Just Charlie.
Glennon Doyle:
She was actually on your dad’s shoulders.
Alex Morgan:
She’s so mature for her age.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. But Charlie, who… How old is she right now?
Alex Morgan:
She’s a little over two.
Glennon Doyle:
Charlie might be in the sports.
Abby Wambach:
Maybe.
Glennon Doyle:
I would imagine. Cervando, your husband, is an athlete.
Alex Morgan:
Yeah, he just retired about a year ago.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Alex Morgan:
So-
Abby Wambach:
How’s that going for him?
Alex Morgan:
He struggled at first because he loves the competition aspect of soccer. But he actually is enjoying it now. He took definitely a big break from soccer, and now he enjoys playing pickup as bad of the level as it is in the pickup games here in San Diego.
Abby Wambach:
That’s amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
So if Charlie goes into sports, I just want to talk to you about how you’ll do it with her. Because I am now a convert to the sports. I understand now how important it is because I’ve seen our daughter transform as a human being because of sports. Not because she’s great at the sports, but because of what it taught her, being on a team and pushing herself. And there’s so much toxicity in sports, it’s scary. And I have seen, over and over again, friends and people who want their kids to be involved in sports. Yes, yay. They know the power and beauty of it. But there is so much institutional crap. There’s coaches who are a nightmare and don’t treat-
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Alex Morgan:
So that’s the toxicity you’re talking about-
Abby Wambach:
Yeah-
Alex Morgan:
… though. Not-
Abby Wambach:
And the parents.
Glennon Doyle:
And the parents, honestly.
Alex Morgan:
And the parents. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
But what would you do if… Because it seems like there’s this thing that’s allowed in coaching culture, where coaches are allowed to talk to kids a certain way. Coaches are allowed to mistreat kids, really, in ways that we know developmentally don’t work for kids. But everybody’s just like, “It’s coaching.” And you can’t say anything.
Abby Wambach:
Because sports. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, it’s sports.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, this is culturally accepted. Locker room talk or whatever.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. So it’s excused. But actually, it shouldn’t be because they’re children. But parents can’t speak up because then their kids get kicked out. So how would you navigate that? You’ve had great coaches and bad coaches. What makes a good coach, and what makes a shitty coach?
Alex Morgan:
I feel like in general, I hope that it’s changing in the way coaches address, especially coaching girls and women. I think the most important thing is the relationship that we have with our children and making sure that that’s an honest one where they know we fully support them and that we trust them, so that they can tell us if there’s anything that’s not okay.
Alex Morgan:
Because at the end of the day, until you hit 17, 18 years old, sports needs to be fun first. And if it’s not fun, then you either change the sport, you change the team, or you don’t play sport. I think I want to have a relationship with Charlie for her to be able to tell me that the coach isn’t treating her well or she’s being taken advantage of or whatever it is. That she doesn’t keep that in. Because at the end of the day, there’s going to be coaches that coach the wrong way, either to individuals or to a team. And so, I just hope that my relationship with Charlie is one where she’s able to express that to me; she feels vulnerable enough to share that information with me.
Glennon Doyle:
What does a coach do that switches from tough coach to inappropriate coach? Because it also feels like you want Charlie to be able to communicate with you, right? But kids don’t even know sometimes. Because how do they know what’s tough? What’s a tough, good coach that you can trust, and when does that crossover into emotionally abusive?
Abby Wambach:
Also, adults don’t know-
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
… the difference.
Glennon Doyle:
So our kids aren’t going to know.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Alex Morgan:
I would love to get your opinion because I feel like I’m new at this parenting thing, so-
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah,
Alex Morgan:
You’ve been doing it for a little bit longer than me.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what I’m trying to figure out, honestly. I think we’ve been really lucky with coaches with our kids.
Abby Wambach:
Well yes, we’ve been very lucky. But I’ve been very particular about who’s coaching them. That’s kind of a privilege, being me, Abby Wambach. I can get recommendations from coaches, from people that I love and trust. Not everybody has that privilege.
Glennon Doyle:
What I would say is that I feel like coaches can get away with things, because we call it sports, that a teacher would never be able to get away with. That there is a way that some coaches can talk to children that is not just tough, it’s demeaning. It bothers me that there’s no collective agreement on how coaches should be able to talk to children. We do have that with teachers. Right?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It just feels like a wild, wild West and that you just have to take it from-
Alex Morgan:
Well, in a lot of ways it is. I’ve never done my coaching license, so I don’t know in the manner that a coach is taught how to emotionally connect with a player. Because what maybe works for one person doesn’t work for the next.
Abby Wambach:
Yep. It’s complicated. And I think every person is different. What their motivation tactics need to be might be very different and opposite to the next person. I know for me, I needed somebody to light a fire under my ass. So leadership, I find, nowadays, it’s a lot more difficult and more complicated, as it should be, as we evolve, as we learn more, as we grow. Because every coach has to figure out what each individual person needs and to stay within those boundaries of that person.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. What are you trying to teach little Charlie? What’s important to you about her? And do you feel like…? We talk a lot about conditioning on this pod. Clearly you, as an athlete who happens to be a woman, had to take less pay for a really long time and be gaslit for decades that you didn’t deserve more. What are you trying to teach-
Alex Morgan:
By the way, that hasn’t stopped. I feel like we’re still having to prove our worth all the time. We pull in huge numbers, both in the NWSL and with the national team. And still, I feel like we’re put on a lesser network or not on TV, maybe a different platform. And we’re still having to prove why we’re worth being put on TV or why we’re worth being put in a certain ad or whatever it might be.
Glennon Doyle:
So it’s not even close to over?
Alex Morgan:
No.
Abby Wambach:
Such fucking bullshit.
Glennon Doyle:
Ha. So how do you teach Charlie to know her worth?
Alex Morgan:
I think confidence is a big thing. For her, it’s just doing what she wants. I go back to this when I was younger, when I was seven. I wrote a note to my mom. And she stuck it on her wall. And I said, “When I grow up I want to become a professional soccer player.” And when I was seven, there was no professional league at the time, just Olympics. And the World Cup. But my mom probably didn’t know about that. But she was like, “Yeah, you’re going to be a professional soccer player. Let’s do it.” Put my sticky note on her wall. And it made me be like, “Yeah, my dreams aren’t stupid. I can do this. If I’m the first, or if I’m the hundredth, I’m going to do it.” Just learning from my mom, I want to be able to help Charlie grow whatever she wants to do into reality.
Alex Morgan:
And that’s why I love bringing her on the field afterwards, letting her… Yeah, she just watched mom play soccer for the last hour and a half. Her time to shine is now her kicking the ball around and stuff. After the game, there’s all these people waving, saying hi to me. And Charlie’s like… She loves it. But I’m like, “Yes, say hi. They’re all cheering for you.” You know what I mean? So I just want to be able to help her grow into this confident and beautiful person, inside and out. And I think that’s just having her as much a part of my life as possible. She travels everywhere with me.
Glennon Doyle:
How does that work?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Glennon doesn’t understand.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t understand. I could not get my children to the mall. Alex, we used to have field trips. My children, we wake up at 9:00 AM. I would find their shoes and put them on. So then it would be 2:00 PM, okay? Just from that. And then we would get in our minivan ,and we would watch a movie in the minivan. That was our whole-
Abby Wambach:
Field trip.
Glennon Doyle:
… field trip. And then we would get out and go back inside.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, okay.
Glennon Doyle:
They didn’t even know that cars move. They just thought that was a movie theater-
Abby Wambach:
That’s incredible.
Glennon Doyle:
… in the driveway. So walk us through how the hell this works.
Alex Morgan:
Yeah. I have a village who helps. And my husband is amazing, but he’s also working, and he’s not coming on the road with me. So my nanny is incredible. She helps me feel just more settled, knowing that Charlie’s safe. She’s with me all the time. And when she needs a break, it’s my dad coming on. He came with me to Kansas City a month ago. And before that, when I went to London with Tottenham, as I came back from pregnancy and tried to get back, game fit, my mother-in-law actually came with me for three months-
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Alex Morgan:
… as Charlie was four months old, and I somehow spontaneously decided, during a pandemic, to move to England. Why? I don’t know. But I thought it was a great decision at the time. But honestly, I have a village. And that helps me feel rested for each game. It helps me be able to take on the businesses that I tackle after soccer practice every day. It helps me feel like I can focus on my job of playing soccer. It’s so underrated, being able to just appreciate the help that I have, that we have, as moms. It’s interesting. I came across Melanie Lynskey’s Critics Choice speech. She won a award. And she’s an actress, and she thanked her nanny-
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so important.
Alex Morgan:
… in her speech. I just loved that so much. Because it feels like, as a mom, you have to hide that you’re getting help, as a working mom. And I don’t want to hide that. This is what helps me thrive. This is what’s helped me score 12 goals this season so far. This is what’s helped me become one of the best soccer players in the world, is the help that I get to be a working mom and have Charlie be safe and cared for when I’m not around.
Abby Wambach:
I can imagine the kind of difficulty or confidence has… the rollercoaster your confidence has probably gone on, from having baby to coming back. And now you’re just scoring goals at an incredible clip. Do you feel as confident as you’ve ever felt? Now, with a family? You’re back at full fitness, playing great soccer, looking forward to the World Cup next summer.
Alex Morgan:
I feel very confident. But I also feel like, even if I didn’t have 12 goals, I would still feel confident and I would still feel great about myself because I’m just in a place where I’m so happy off of the field. I’m in a very good place. I’m here in San Diego, an hour away, max, from all of Cervando’s family, from all of my family. Charlie is able to see her cousins and her aunts and uncles and her grandparents every week.
Alex Morgan:
And it just feels like I’m in a different place in my life. And I think that’s helped with the success on the field. Because if I have a bad day or if I have a bad game, I’m not going to overanalyze it like I used to. In general, you’re your own worst critic. But as athletes especially, you just dwell on the bad moments. And you could just get so negative. You can just let the negativity just overcome you so easily. And I feel like I’ve just let that go.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so interesting. You have such a huge career. And it feels like what you’re saying is, the more you’ve bolstered up everything else outside of your career, the more you’ve been able to shine in your career. And be less afraid, right? Because you keep saying, “If I lost soccer, I’d be okay,” which is not what you normally hear. What would you do? I know you’re already doing a lot of it. But when you say, “If I lost soccer tomorrow,” I know you and Charlie and Cervando and your family would just… you love spending time together. But professionally, what would you do?
Alex Morgan:
Well, I have my media company together that I would take more of a front seat with, which has been currently more of a backseat because of just prioritizing time in the day and what I can possibly do. But I would love to stay in soccer somehow. I think I would be a good advisor for US Soccer or even FIFA. I think they need some more females-
Glennon Doyle:
Even I know that.
Alex Morgan:
… in those rooms. And I think that I could look men straight in the eye and tell them how it is.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, Alex.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Alex Morgan:
So that would be something that I would be willing to do tomorrow, if I didn’t have soccer. If I didn’t have the ball in my foot.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
That’s called taking one for the team.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Going into FIFA and looking at these men who don’t give a shit about us women. Literally, they’re just-
Alex Morgan:
That’s like… yeah.
Abby Wambach:
They’re the worst.
Alex Morgan:
It’s like how when Heather O’Reilly was like, “I’ll take one for the team, and I’ll be a referee.” Even though she’s not yet. I was like, “I feel the same way. I’ll take one for the team, and I’ll get up there, and I’ll tell them how it really needs to be done.”
Glennon Doyle:
What would you say right now is the hardest thing for you? What are you working out trying to figure out what’s ugh right now? Either painful or unsettled?
Alex Morgan:
I think motherhood in general is very hard. My husband, Cervando, would love another kid now. But we do have the World Cup next year. So that’s tough, having to navigate motherhood and wanting to expand a family, as an athlete.
Alex Morgan:
And also, quite frankly, being on birth control and not wanting to be on birth control, but feeling like I have to because I can’t get pregnant right now. That’s hard because we don’t know, really, what that does to the body. It hasn’t been enough studies because oh surprise-
Glennon Doyle:
Why?
Alex Morgan:
… women are an afterthought with that. So I think just the whole thing of balancing motherhood, just the scheduling of me Cervando and the arguments that that’s created in figuring out our schedules. Charlie’s sick right now. He can’t be home. I can’t be home. I can’t miss practice. There’s a lot of just new challenges. A lot.
Glennon Doyle:
What part of Cervando do you hope that Charlie has?
Abby Wambach:
Aw.
Alex Morgan:
Well, she already looks like him, which I love. They call her little Cervandita.
Glennon Doyle:
Aw.
Alex Morgan:
He’s really someone that brings the room together. He’s just such a connector. He could strike up a conversation with anyone. He gets along with everyone. And I feel like I am a lot more opinionated. I don’t necessarily pause for a few seconds before responding, which I need to work more on. And he is just so great with his words, with his connections with people. And so, I would love her to have that part of him.
Abby Wambach:
What parts of Charlie do you hope or does she have of you?
Alex Morgan:
She has my competitiveness, which is scary. The funniest… Okay, we’re in potty training.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, God help you.
Alex Morgan:
She likes to go on the potty, but she wants to do it all herself. She can’t quite wipe or pull up her pants, but she likes to pull them down. She likes to lift up the seat. So I’ll do things like I’ll stand up next to the potty, and I’ll lift the seat for her. She goes, “No, no, no, no. Charlie do it.” And she’ll throw the seat down, so then she can lift up the seat on her own. So I just have to let it go. But I’m honestly like, “That’s me.” I need to do everything myself. I don’t pause when I respond. I’m so hundred percent all the time. I’m so passionate about things. I’m not a half-in type of person. I’m not get my toes wet. I’m jump in head first. And she is totally like me, in that fashion. And it’s a little scary, but I understand a little bit how to navigate it. Because it’s me.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Oh, Alex Morgan.
Abby Wambach:
I just want to say this before we close. Ever since I got to know you and I got to play with you, you have exceeded the expectations that I even said to you long ago. The person that you’ve become, the player and the leader you’ve become. I’m just not surprised in any way at how much more successful you’ve gotten since I’ve retired. I just really love you. And I think that it’s incredible to see what you’ve been able to accomplish. But to know that you are still the same person, the way you’ve gone through all of it, all the ups and the downs and the good and the hard times, it just shows the real character of who you are, the kind of person that you are, that you’ve stayed true and the same. You will always be that young, little kid in my mind, for some reason. And I will forever be cheering for you. I will always text you, even when you don’t want me to, to try to build up your confidence for-
Alex Morgan:
I never don’t want you to text me, by the way.
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Alex Morgan:
So, please text me.
Glennon Doyle:
Alex, sometimes she’ll be driving, so I have to text for her. And then I’ll put an exclamation point. And Abby will say, “I would never text her an exclamation point. Take away that.” So just know.
Abby Wambach:
Well, no. I would never-
Glennon Doyle:
… that I am also putting myself into those pre-game texts.
Abby Wambach:
I would never text her seven exclamation points.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. All right, fine. Alex Morgan, thank you for being you. Thank you for being such a freaking gorgeous example of leadership and power and friendship. We love you. We’ll be cheering for you forever. And I will even stand for all of your penalty kicks.
Alex Morgan:
Oh.
Glennon Doyle:
In reverence.
Alex Morgan:
And just my turn. I just wanted to say thank you guys for having me on the podcast. But Abby, we don’t get to talk as much as I would love to. But it’s always so good catching up with you. It really warms my heart. And just your relationship with Glennon is incredible. It’s inspiring. And you guys have done such great things together. And so, I just absolutely love talking to you both.
Abby Wambach:
Same. And whenever it is you do decide to hang up those cleats, you know who to call for help.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Not that I can do anything. Call Glennon. She’s better.
Glennon Doyle:
We’ll map it all out, sister. And bring Charlie to our house. Please, soon.
Alex Morgan:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Alex Morgan:
We’re coming soon. We’re coming.
Glennon Doyle:
We love you. Oh, and also pod squad, I forgot you were there. We love you so much, and we will see you next time.
Abby Wambach:
See you next time, all.
Glennon Doyle:
Bye.
Alex Morgan:
And Abby, I forgot to say that I love you too.
Glennon Doyle:
We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn’t, don’t worry about it. It’s fine.