Indigo Girls: Sexuality, Sobriety, Faith & Freedom
September 22, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We’re just going to just begin. Because Abby and I just got in a huge fight. Abby-
Amy Ray:
Wait, are you serious?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
No, we didn’t get to do a huge fight, but she’s been a little bit on edge this morning. She literally shushed me a little bit ago because I came back from workout and oftentimes my volume is a little higher-
Glennon Doyle:
Anyway.
Abby Wambach:
And so just recently, as you sat down, I said, “Are you upset with me?” And she said, “No.” What did you say?
Glennon Doyle:
I said, “No, I’m not upset with you. I’m freaking the fuck out. I’m having a nervous breakdown because we’re about to interview Amy and Emily. And I can’t stop thinking about it.”
Glennon Doyle:
I have dressed up as if I’m going to a ball. I haven’t dressed up for two years. What is with me?
Amy Ray:
That is awesome.
Glennon Doyle:
I said, “We have to just start this. We have to start it.” So I don’t run away. Okay.
Amy Ray:
Why are you nervous?
Emily Saliers:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, well that’s a good place to start. I don’t know. I’m nervous because if there are two people in the entire world who have meant more to me artistically, there aren’t any more people who are… See, I’m doing great. I’m crushing it and completing sentences.
Glennon Doyle:
So when I was getting sober, I was 25 and I had just decided that my feelings were too much to feel, so I just numbed myself out forever. And then I found out I was pregnant, so I had to figure out how to human. And I still thought I couldn’t feel my feelings or I would die. So I was freshly sober. And when I got sober, I was almost dead. I was in a very bad place.
Glennon Doyle:
And I used to practice being human. I would start one of your song. I would allow myself the four minutes of one Indigo Girls song and I would land my bed and allow myself to feel feelings for those four minutes. And for the first month, two months of sobriety, I would say, “You don’t have to feel any other time, just those four minutes.” And do you think that I have spent a single day of our lives-
Abby Wambach:
Not one.
Glennon Doyle:
… since I got sober for 20 years, without listening to you all.
Abby Wambach:
Not one.
Glennon Doyle:
Every day of my life.
Amy Ray:
Wow.
Abby Wambach:
You both are the background in our life and our children’s life.
Glennon Doyle:
So do you think we should tell the people who we’re talking to and about?
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Today we are talking to and having a double date with the most important duo of Abby and I’s lives.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
Emily Saliers and Amy Ray, the Indigo Girls, who together make the most important music of our lifetime. One of the most successful folk duos in history, Amy Ray and Emily Saliers, AKA the Indigo Girls, has recorded 16 albums and sold over 15 million records. That sounds impressive, but I bought 14 million of them, so.
Amy Ray:
Good for you.
Glennon Doyle:
Committed and uncompromising activists, they work on issues like immigration reform, LGBTQ advocacy, education, and death penalty reform. They are co-founders of Honor the Earth, a nonprofit dedicated to the survival of sustainable native communities, indigenous environmental justice, and green energy solutions. Their latest record, Look Long, Love, is a stirring and eclectic collection of songs that finds the Indigo Girls reunited in the studio with their strongest backing band to date.
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Amy and Emily, thank you for saving our lives and being here today.
Emily Saliers:
Oh man. It’s an honor. It really is for us.
Amy Ray:
Yeah, totally such an honor. And wow. What a story.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Emily Saliers:
Yeah. I was going to say, Glennon, if you were trying to have an introductory course into feeling feelings, I would’ve picked Barry Manilow instead of the Indigo Girls-
Glennon Doyle:
I know.
Emily Saliers:
… because we’re so intense and emotional and-
Amy Ray:
Wait, Barry Manilow is so intense? Really?
Emily Saliers:
Well, I mean, it just would have been a gentler introduction into real feelings. That’s curious to me.
Glennon Doyle:
Because I feel like at that time I had never heard music that honored the complication of being a woman. You were really honoring the complication of life. Listening to light stuff or reading light stuff makes me feel worse because I feel like, “Oh, I guess everyone else is fine and not swirly?”
Emily Saliers:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Abby Wambach:
And I think what probably was bringing you into the depths of your addiction was this cover or the costumes that you had to keep putting on. And Glennon talks a lot about going to our first meeting and finally listening to people telling the truth for the first time. And I bet because they speak so much truth in their music, and I bet that that was such an attraction to you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Well, and then when I told Craig that I was in love with a woman, the first words he said to me… I was married. The first words he said to me was, “Is this what all the Indigo Girls have been about?”
Amy Ray:
Oh my God.
Emily Saliers:
Is that a compliment or a stigma?
Amy Ray:
No, we get blamed. We get blamed.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t know, but it was right. I was like, “I think it is! Holy shit.”
Amy Ray:
All those husbands.
Glennon Doyle:
All those husbands.
Emily Saliers:
And boyfriends.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Emily Saliers:
Poor guys.
Glennon Doyle:
Poor guys. So how did you find music in each other?
Amy Ray:
We knew each other when we were young 10, 11, a year apart in elementary school. But I think the way we really found music in each other is high school chorus. Right, Emily.
Emily Saliers:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
And then we decided that we would get together. We became friends with a group of friends that were cross-grades that all had the commonality, of course. And we were going to do a talent show. We got together in my mom’s basement and we started learning cover songs. And for me, that harmony was… Kind of blew my mind. And I didn’t know how to sing harmony yet. I was in the choir at church, but I just would just do exactly what my Choir Director told me. I didn’t understand, how do you write the part? So Emily was already doing that and her family was already singing in harmony with each other.
Amy Ray:
I found it in the harmony, in Emily’s keen sense of harmony and just the naturalness of how it just comes out. I was like, “Oh wow, that’s the magic of music.” Of this thing, which was for a high schooler, 16, 15 years old, it was intense.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow. This is a completely random question. But you know how when you’re in elementary school or high school, you always feel like people that are the year older than you are cooler, your whole life. If I meet somebody right now, I’m 46, and they were a senior when I was a sophomore, so they’re 48, I automatically think they’re cooler. So do you still think Emily’s cooler than you because she’s older than you?
Emily Saliers:
Oh, God. Don’t ask her that question.
Amy Ray:
I do. I think you always have the dynamic that you set when you’re young together.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amy Ray:
So Emily’s always a year older, better at this, better at that, all that stuff. Bigger hit songs, whatever. It’s always-
Emily Saliers:
We have to promise to be completely transparent in this interview because I am such a dork and Amy is so cool. So that’s like, “Wow.”
Amy Ray:
No.
Emily Saliers:
But there is the tier system in school where just, if you even get to hang out at the lunchroom with someone in an older, you’re flying, you’re high. Because it’s like, “Look at me with an older kid in the upper grade.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Emily Saliers:
But we-
Amy Ray:
Yeah, yeah.
Emily Saliers:
We’re pretty close in age though. Amy almost catches up to me, but not quite. And then I’ve always had a respect for her wisdom and her vision for things, how to make things happen. And also, if you see me crying, and I may cry emotionally, but I just tried false eyelashes.
Glennon Doyle:
No you did not.
Emily Saliers:
Yes. I did look at my eyeball.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. What in the Sam Hell?
Amy Ray:
This is like-
Glennon Doyle:
This makes me feel good for some reason.
Abby Wambach:
This is the best thing
Glennon Doyle:
Emily, tell us the story right now.
Emily Saliers:
Okay.
Amy Ray:
It’s a phase she’s in. She’s doing false lashes and fractal guitar effects.
Emily Saliers:
And my eye is… Yeah, it’s true. And we’ll get to the fractal, later.
Amy Ray:
It’s like a new level for Indigo Girls.
Glennon Doyle:
Did you do this yourself? Did you go… Did you buy some?
Emily Saliers:
No. I’m going to tell you. I went to a professional. And who advised me where to go was none other than Carrie, Amy’s life partner.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Emily Saliers:
And actually she’s really great. But I’m a redhead and I’m compromised and I am sensitive and I don’t know what happened. So I have blonde eyelashes.
Glennon Doyle:
Right, right.
Emily Saliers:
And I like to wear mascara. This is so… Should we talk about this?
Amy Ray:
Talk about it. It’s awesome.
Glennon Doyle:
I think it’s the best thing. It’s just the best thing that’s ever happened.
Amy Ray:
It’s so dimensional.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Emily Saliers:
Okay. So, yeah. This is me, dimensional. Ah!
Amy Ray:
So she’s always been the femme.
Emily Saliers:
All things being relative, that’s probably true, but-
Amy Ray:
True.
Emily Saliers:
So I like to wear mascara. I don’t like my eyelashes to be invisible. But putting on mascara’s a drag.
Glennon Doyle:
Yep.
Emily Saliers:
And then I watch a lot of women’s college basketball and I started to notice that all those young women are wearing false eyelashes.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, yes.
Emily Saliers:
But those gals can carry them like an inch long, right?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. They’re like-
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Emily Saliers:
So I was like, “I can’t do that, but that’s cool. That looks good to me.” So I went and Carrie gave me this recommendation and at first I got a mascara look.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Emily Saliers:
Which is very not… You know they have to place single eyelashes on each lash?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, I know this well, Emily. I’ve lived this life. I’ve lived this life.
Emily Saliers:
Oh. We’ll talk about you later then.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I looked like Bambi for years.
Emily Saliers:
So anyway, this next time I said to her, “Let’s just up the game a little, what can you offer that’s not like the basketball players, but that’s a little bit fuller?” And now my eye is killing me and I just cry all the time out of my left eye.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m just going to send you an email after this with all the answers to this.
Emily Saliers:
Okay. Okay, good.
Glennon Doyle:
So you two were born a year before we even had the word transgender, five years before the Stonewall riots, 10 years before any out queer person ever held political office. You came of age during the HIV AIDS epidemic, which they were then calling the Gay Plague. The world you came out in is so different than the world that I came out in. And that difference was created in part by you, which is so wild. How are people who came out when you did different than people who come out now? What is the difference that you feel and see?
Emily Saliers:
That’s a good question.
Amy Ray:
There’s some things that are similar. I’ll say, like kids that are in certain areas of the country or live in certain families or go to certain churches really still have the roughest time ever. So that’s a similarity.
Amy Ray:
But the difference would be, I feel like access to language for one thing. We didn’t know what the word gay meant really when we were kids, we were like, “Is that bestiality?” Because we were in suburban south.
Amy Ray:
Now when you come out, you understand that there’s sexuality and there’s gender and that’s different. And you understand, you have the grasp of all these things about gender dysphoria, gender fluidity, bisexuality, trans issues in the forefront, which they should be. And so for me, I think for the most important difference, the thing that helped me the most when I got older was all of a sudden having all this language to talk about where I was at.
Amy Ray:
And I also think you can reach out through the internet and find some mentors. I mean, when you’re suffering, you don’t have anybody to turn to where you live, you don’t have any role models. There’s so many role models and there’s so much information. Emily’s probably got some.
Emily Saliers:
I agree with everything you’ve said. And because through the internet or through community groups that can focus on queer community, I think maybe people who are coming out don’t have to deal so much with the self-hatred and self-homophobia that, I’ll speak for my own self, that I still deal with.
Emily Saliers:
Because I think the more you have a community out there, especially if you have access, and I’m not talking about kids in a rural or any super evangelical Christian or any kind of household that makes it as difficult as ever was. But for kids who have… Like where I live, it’s pretty progressive and there’s queer alliances. And even kids who are lean more towards heteronormative belong to these groups. And so there’s more of a sense of, “I have a place where I can be.”
Emily Saliers:
When I was coming up, all I heard was, “You’re different. You’ll never be validated. What are we going to do with this band?” When we got signed, we can’t sell their sexuality as women and all these things. And I still am unraveling that. So I think that’s a difference, too. Some of the young people I know who come out are just, they’re still overjoyed and happy and they didn’t have to fight this dark internal battle.
Abby Wambach:
I have that with Glennon. I have a lot of internalized homophobia that still lives in me today. And Glennon grew up with straight privilege and has always been fighting for gay rights for the longest time. She was marching at Gay Pride parades before I was. And I just think that that’s so interesting. I look at her and sometimes I think, not, “Fuck you,” because I would never say that. But like, “Really? You just got here and you feel free?” And I’ve been keeping myself in this homophobic cage for so long. I don’t know, I just think it’s really interesting. And you both have said that you are a little scared of your own gayness.
Glennon Doyle:
Which is different than being scared of homophobia.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
What does it mean to be scared of your own gayness?
Amy Ray:
Well, it’s internalized homophobia. It means you’re scared of what you really are, and sometimes you don’t want to face it. And I think when you’re young, you don’t really know what it means and how to talk about it and all that.
Amy Ray:
But I would say, Abby, that we may have that self-hate thing, but Glennon, and one of the things about you is that you went through this very compacted experience of getting sober, falling in love, and having to really fight for what you really wanted to be. And I often think that people who have those intense fights feel a sort of freedom that you don’t feel the same way when you have this graduated experience, like we’ve had over the years of trying to unravel everything, knowing we were gay, and not being this compacted experience, when all of a sudden you have this relief of like, “Oh my God, I’m finally free. I didn’t realize. I’m celebrating who I am.”
Amy Ray:
And for us, it’s kind of like we were just not able to celebrate for so long that we got conditioned to that. We were taught that you don’t celebrate it for, I mean, years. Even if our parents didn’t teach us that, like Emily’s parents didn’t teach her that she shouldn’t celebrate that, they were progressive. And my parents were not happy with it at first, but they’re awesome. They were awesome later in my life. But you just get the sense from something, you’re just conditioned. Everybody knows that society is like, trying to tamp you down all the time, no matter what you are.
Emily Saliers:
It’s interesting though, what you say-
Glennon Doyle:
No matter what you are. Yeah.
Emily Saliers:
… Abby, about talking to Glennon about this and straight privilege. I have a crystallized fear deep in me because my wife does not identify as lesbian and she never had a girlfriend and it’s terrifying to me that she would go back to a man. Even though we’re married and committed and everything. But those fears are so primal. And that fear comes from not feeling good enough as a gay person. And she respects the fact that she’s had straight privilege. But she identifies as queer, but not lesbian. And so she would love who whomever she loved. And I can’t get out of that fear yet. I don’t have much time left, I feel like sometimes to get out of that fear. That’s how deep they are. You could take them to your grave.
Glennon Doyle:
What do you think? Do you feel that way about me not-
Abby Wambach:
No, because I know how you feel about men in general.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, she knows for sure I’m not going back to a man. I might be alone for the rest of my life, but-
Abby Wambach:
I think that you have been in a cage for so many seconds of your life that it doesn’t matter to me. I know that we are going to be together forever. And of course, I have that fear in general, because of my own unworthiness complex that I’ve built over the course of my life. But I do think that there for you, you need to have the freedom to not put yourself into another box.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. Because then I’d have to get out of it. If sometime… It feels like painting myself into a corner
Abby Wambach:
Well, it’s the same with gender, too. You-
Glennon Doyle:
Gender, yeah. I don’t understand gender either.
Abby Wambach:
Everything is very… It’s very confusing.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. But my thought experiment you all is when we try to figure out like, “What are you?” We still have these conversations is like, “Okay, if I had to be on The Bachelorette and they were like, ‘You got to pick your people that are going to be here. Sorry, you got to pick your people.’ I would choose… Say, ‘Okay, women can be there and non-binary people can be there.'” That’s who I would choose. So that is something, right?
Abby Wambach:
That is something, I mean we were watching Hacks a couple of weeks ago and this non-binary person came on the screen and she said, “That is a beautiful person.” And I looked at her and it was the first time that I was like, “Wait a second. That’s my lane. You’re not allowed to talk about other people who are in my lane. What the fuck?” She looked at me and she saw my sincere concern. She’s like “What? Oh, no. I don’t… No, no, I…” And was trying to back out of it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
But-
Glennon Doyle:
What do you-
Emily Saliers:
Wow. Wow, wow.
Amy Ray:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Still figuring it out. Still figuring it out. Because I didn’t-
Amy Ray:
We all are.
Emily Saliers:
Well, Glennon, can you trace back in your life and see where this might have been blossoming in you, early on? Or do you feel like because of your negative experiences with men, that sort of shaped your vision towards loving women in a deeper way?
Glennon Doyle:
So a couple things. This is a complicated conversation, all right. Sometimes when I get on the interwebs and start talking about fluidity and choice and whatever, usually someone calls. Like Brandi calls me and says, “Slow down. You’re not allowed to talk like that.” Well, actually, in reality, she just called and said, “Let’s talk this through. Tell me what you’re thinking. And I’ll tell you what I think.” And her points were very well-
Amy Ray:
She’s smart.
Glennon Doyle:
There are people in churches and in places where, when you start talking about, “Maybe I don’t identify with born this way, maybe there is a fluidity and maybe there’s choice involved.” Then the people who are sending their kids to conversion therapy use that as an excuse. It’s like the people from the Bible Belt need the excuse that God made you this way in order to allow their children to be who they are. So I get all of that, but-
Amy Ray:
Yeah, but… There’s anything and everything that can be used in bad ways. Don’t worry about that.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amy Ray:
Yeah. You’ve got to speak your truth to power.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, here’s the truth. I’ve never told anyone this before, including Abby. But since I mean Emily or here, I’m going to tell you. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
This is exciting.
Glennon Doyle:
So I’m sweating, again. So I remember being very, very young, 12, 13, maybe younger, and finding Playboys.
Abby Wambach:
Yes!
Glennon Doyle:
And being like, “Wow!” Okay? I know.
Abby Wambach:
I’m so happy.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Well I don’t know what it means.
Amy Ray:
Well, wait, what do you mean by, “Wow!”
Glennon Doyle:
Just being like, “I understand why people like this magazine. This is very interesting and beautiful.”
Abby Wambach:
I wonder. Because this might have been around the time that you started to delve into bulimia?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I mean, so then I shut down all of my sexuality and body and almost killed myself and married a bunch of men and then… But yeah, it’s interesting. Right?
Abby Wambach:
You just married one man, to be clear.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It felt like so many.
Emily Saliers:
Oh wait, are you Catholic, Glennon?
Amy Ray:
A bunch of men.
Glennon Doyle:
I was Cath… Yes, I was. Yeah.
Emily Saliers:
Okay. So you can’t discount the influence of the church.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Emily Saliers:
The greatest woman that ever lived was a virgin and then you carry on from there.
Abby Wambach:
I was named after her.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Do you know that the original meaning of the word Virgin had nothing to do with sex and original meaning was to belong to oneself?
Emily Saliers:
Oh. I love that.
Amy Ray:
Oh. So that changes that.
Emily Saliers:
I didn’t know that.
Abby Wambach:
So that changes that. I love that.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. What do-
Amy Ray:
But the influence, the power of these systemic structures that affect us. The church, social norms, binary thinking, fear about fluidity in so many ways. You take a step back and look at the power of those forces on us. It’s very, very… That’s why we need community.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amy Ray:
Because together, we can navigate that, tackle that, and affirm our validity as human beings, our dignity. So that’s why we need community.
Abby Wambach:
I loved church. When I was three, I knew all of the church songs. I stood on the pews with my hands on the back of the pew in front of me. I was loud. I was into it.
Abby Wambach:
And then over time, as soon as I started to feel my sexuality coming to the surface, I fucking hated myself. I felt that shame. And I embodied it in my cells, in the molecular makeup of who I am.
Abby Wambach:
And then I get to be 16 years old, and this is actually the first time I ever acknowledged outwardly, not with words, but with action to my mom. We were in a store and y’all’s CD was at the checkout line and I picked up your CD. And my sister, Laura, who’s a little bit older than me, she’s 10 years older than me and she’s gay. I came out first. But she listened to you all. And I grabbed the CD and I said to my mom, “Can I buy this? Can you buy this for me?” And she said, “Yeah.” And that was one of the most important moments of my life. It was me taking ownership of myself.
Glennon Doyle:
So you were trying to tell her something, too, right?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I mean, I didn’t come out to her for six years after that. But still, it was one of the most important moments of my life. And y’all were a big part of it.
Amy Ray:
That’s a cool story.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you all think there’s room for the conversation of choice and fluidity? Do you feel like there are forces in the world… Adrienne Rich used to say, “I’m a lesbian for political reasons.” Or, the second wave of feminism, they used to say that, oh God, “Liberation is the goal and lesbianism is the way,” or something like that? There have been times where being a lesbian by choice, not in a way that it was like, “I would be different if I could, but I was born this way.” Because there’s some sort of apologetic vibe. It’s not like I would be different, but I’m gay. No, this is the best life. This is the best choice. This is on purpose, kind of? Do you feel that that’s dangerous to the conversation or do you believe that?
Amy Ray:
I guess it’s… But in the context of the second wave, it was a political statement, like separatism was. We need a safe space, men are doing a lot of harm and politically we need to be liberated from that power in order to be ourselves, actualize who we really are. And I think lesbianism was used as a term equated with separatism. So I think it’s totally, maybe a different context than…
Amy Ray:
Now I don’t know what the science is, but I know that I feel like you can be born in many different ways on the spectrum of who you’re attracted to. So if you’re born in the middle, your nurturing can push you one way or the other maybe? Or you can be taught that it’s not cool to be in the middle and that’s a sin, too. Or your gender can be forced on you when you don’t feel that gender. There’s so many circumstances. I guess, I feel like things are more fluid than we know.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
But I think the political movements are, like second wave, I think they were making a point, which is so different from now.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
I think it’s still relevant. Don’t you think, Emily? I don’t know.
Emily Saliers:
Yeah. I think there was a time when identity politics became very, very important as a way to separate from the powers that be. And I also think that, and this is just my opinion, but in order to enter a sexual relationship, it’s not really a choice. If somebody with the same sex makes you feel good or anybody makes you feel good or you have a connection through your body, you don’t really go, “Okay. Now I’m going to like this.” I think the choice is more if you decide to enter into a committed relationship or… Can anybody elaborate on that?
Amy Ray:
I know and because-
Glennon Doyle:
And being open to it at all. The choice is to shut down. You could shut it down. I shut it down for a long time.
Amy Ray:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So the choice is to shut it down or not. That makes sense.
Amy Ray:
But I also think it’s a weird sort of thought process, but I think when you come up with… I came up with feeling at some point the bubble was burst and I was feeling self-hatred about being so masculine, completely separate from who I was attracted to. And I became unfree because I was like, “Oh, now I hate myself. Great.” Just physically hate my body. It has nothing to do with who I want to go out with.
Amy Ray:
And then I became attracted to women, but the self-hate, I could be… It’s a weird, I don’t even know how you unwind it in our generation. But we had so much self-loathing that when you found this safety with a woman and you found this love and you’re in love and you’re sexually attracted to. But also for me, I was attracted to men, as well, but I felt completely unworthy of that.
Abby Wambach:
Oh!
Amy Ray:
You see what I’m saying? The self-hate of my body and the self-hate of me not being a good enough woman and the wanting also to be a guy, that kind of fluidity did not go hand in hand with having a boyfriend. So I think there’s some unraveling to be done for the total freedom that you might want to feel. Like you can be completely attracted to the opposite sex, you can be attracted to the same sex, you can be attracted to people that are gender queer, whatever you want. There should be nothing limiting you that has to do with you not liking yourself and thinking that you’re unworthy.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amy Ray:
And for our generation, it’s so different from the young generation now. My nephew’s bisexual. He’s just like, “I love who I love.” You know what I’m saying? And he’s a six foot, big guy, actor, big guy, Ren Fair stage fighting.
Amy Ray:
And he’s just like, “Men are beautiful.”
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, God. It’s so great.
Amy Ray:
And I’m like, “Oh my God, I love you.” That’s what I wanted to be.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, yeah.
Amy Ray:
And I had a boyfriend for a while who I really loved after I had a girlfriend, but I didn’t want to marry him, so I had to just tell him that. And I loved him so much, but I knew that it was not where I wanted to be, with him and everything. But I just didn’t feel like I was also worthy, even though he didn’t… He was like, “I love the way you are. I love lesbians,” whatever he meant. Yeah. “I love masculine women,” is what he meant, right?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
This speaks-
Amy Ray:
But I didn’t love masculine women.
Glennon Doyle:
Ah.
Amy Ray:
Right?
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Amy Ray:
But then I have friends where the couple is a masculine woman and a femme-y guy. And some of my friends will be like, “Oh, they should just be gay.” And I’m like, “No, they actually…” Can’t you open your mind?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
They’re in love with each other. They’re not covering up being gay.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amy Ray:
They actually love, this is who they want to be with.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
And I think we, even us as gay people, get stuck in that place of like, “Well, if you’re this way and that way you must just be in the closet.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
And it’s like, “No, actually.” There’s feminine straight men and masculine straight women.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Emily Saliers:
I remember when Ani came out as bisexual or whatever, she would term it now, and the lesbian community just lost their shit.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Emily Saliers:
Because it’s like, “We only have so many of us and we’ve lost one of our own.” I remember that. I didn’t feel that way, of course. But I understand that fear. And so identity, we’re so wrapped up in identity. And I think it’s probably a primal thing, knowing your place in the tribe and are you going to go out and pick the berries or are you going to draw on the cave wall? You know what I mean?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Emily Saliers:
You have to be able to recognize your place in your tribe or else you’re fucked.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Emily Saliers:
So I think a lot of this focus on, it’s not all because the more I say this and think about it as I say it, but there is a lot to do with, where do I belong in a tribe.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Emily Saliers:
And it’s very, very compromising and fear-inducing to think that either you don’t belong or you’ve lost someone who you thought belonged. Goes way, way back in that part of your brain.
Abby Wambach:
And my goodness, Amy, what you just said. I’m more masculine. I have more masculine tendencies. And so of course, no straight man who would want to be with a woman would ever want me. So it felt like this is the way you articulated that was the most true thing that I have heard about my own gender and sexuality and how they are in relationship to each other. That it’s like, “Well, I can’t be that. Nobody will want me over here. So of course then, I have to be gay.”
Glennon Doyle:
Interesting.
Amy Ray:
Because, and it’s not… But to say… And when we say that people say, “Oh, well, that’s dangerous to say that because then it’s like saying you really want to be straight. And if you just felt better about yourself, you could.” But that’s not the point.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s not it. No way.
Abby Wambach:
No, it’s not the point. It’s like, “I want to be everything. If I want to be everything.” I have had sex with dudes and it wasn’t the worst experience of my life.
Glennon Doyle:
We think that I’m gayer than she is. Because I was like, “Well, actually, it was the worst experience of my life.” Every time. I tried.
Glennon Doyle:
So Amy, do you identify as a woman? Because you’ve said in the past you’re half and half, which by the way, just makes sense to me.
Amy Ray:
I mean, I don’t identify as a… I mean my pronoun is she. But that’s just because I fought so hard to honor the woman in inside me. I identify as a masculine female, probably is the closest thing to it. But when I see my inner self, it’s very much a guy. I know.
Amy Ray:
But I know society has influenced that for so long as I was coming up that I have this benefit of the doubt that I give to the fact that I probably have misogyny drilled into me at an early age.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
And so I’m just trying to welcome that feminine and just be, identify as a she. But I can theoretically see the idea of transitioning to a guy and what that would mean, but it doesn’t work for me, for some reason. I’ve thought about it. It doesn’t work for me. And I think it’s because I could not really feel completely a guy, either. And so I don’t want to go through all that just to get on the other side of it and be like, “Well, shit. I don’t really feel like a guy, either.”
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Here’s another costume I’m in.
Amy Ray:
Yeah. I just think it’s all so mixed up inside me that I have to just be like, “No, no, this is just who I am. This is what you get.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
And I got to just learn to love that.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you-
Amy Ray:
And I have friends that have transitioned and they’re so completely who they are that I’m like, “Yes.” The prime example of when it works and when you become the true being reflected on the outside that you feel in the inside. Right?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, yeah.
Amy Ray:
And it’s amazing to see that and it’s joyful and I celebrate it, but I don’t think I could get there.
Abby Wambach:
Do you love or hate the fluidity of that for you?
Amy Ray:
Well, theoretically I love it. But the 12 year old in me hates it or the 14 year old, I guess.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And because we all want to belong somewhere, that’s why people want to know your identity. Who do you belong to, but then who do you belong to automatically creates an enemy. It’s like if you’re in something, the only reason to be in something is to know who’s not in that something.
Amy Ray:
Well you can look at it differently though because true tribal thought from an indigenous perspective, doesn’t have to be that. I think that’s a white perspective of what tribal is, honestly. And I think you just have to look at tribe as, this is my community of people that work together to create something and help each other. And there are other communities over here that do the same thing. And sometimes we get together and have a party and try to achieve something even bigger. It’s just functional, you have to have these tribes that are situated in some way that’s convenient to really help each other out and really be there for each other and build something and create your life and have a journey. And then these other tribes are just as worthy. And it’s not us and them.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so beautiful. You’re so right. That’s just all whiteness.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
So Emily you’re sober. Right?
Emily Saliers:
Yes, thank God. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Ugh, I know.
Amy Ray:
Thank God.
Glennon Doyle:
Tell us about how you got sober. Did you have a rock bottom? What was that decision and process for you?
Emily Saliers:
Well, I have alcoholism on both sides of my family, both sets of grandparents. I mean, my grandmother on my dad’s side died when he was five, so I don’t know. But all the other grandparents were alcoholics. And so I was sort of aware of that, my parents were very moderate with alcohol. Growing up, there was no, “Alcohol is evil and you should never have it,” or anything like that. So I always had that in the back of my mind. But I was destined to be alcoholic and I didn’t know it.
Emily Saliers:
But when we played bars and stuff and we did shots from the stage, this is when we were, I don’t know, babies. And drinking was such a social part of what we did for work. And then I had a very social life, I thought I was an extrovert. I was really just an alcoholic. So, I was not an extrovert.
Abby Wambach:
I think that that might be me, too.
Emily Saliers:
Oh my God. I was just like, I thought I was so funny and so charming and so attractive, but I was just drunk.
Emily Saliers:
I did have a rock bottom. And the truth is that Amy, she knew I was alcoholic and she came to me I think at least two times and maybe three. And this is funny, but I always liken it to the way Peter denied Jesus three times. It’s when I look back on it’s very deep that I lied to Amy, those, “I don’t have a problem. I really mean I love to drink.” But I it’s classic. I was a liar. All alcoholics are liars.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, yes.
Emily Saliers:
And then my body broke down and I would say that I was pretty close to death very shortly. Both my mother and my little sister who had addiction and eating disorder, she died when she was 29 or 30. And they were both dead. And towards the end of my drinking, I started dreaming about them every night. And they were like, “Come, come on.” And I got to the point where I was like, “Oh, I might die. Okay. That’s cool.” Or, “That’s fine, whatever.”
Emily Saliers:
And so Amy can attest to how terrible it was when I was drinking. All the excuses I made, my irresponsibility, not showing up. But I was terrified. I think all alcoholics are terrified to admit that they’re alcoholics. I had a friend who went into the program way, way before I did. And she gave me my first blue book and she was like… And I don’t really want to talk about the program because that’s… Anyway, she gave me that book and it was on fire. I wouldn’t touch it. It sat there on a little altar, but it was… And I was like, “Oh, well, I’m not like that.”
Emily Saliers:
It’s classic. And then I started reading the stories because I just could not, it’s going to see personal best. You can’t stay away from it. You’ve got to read the stories eventually. And then I was like, “Eh, I can’t relate to that.” But then at the end, everybody knew I was just fucked up and dying and Amy was going to quit the band.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Emily Saliers:
And everything was falling apart for me. And I tried to hide it so much. And you just can’t. And in the end there was an intervention. And actually, Amy wasn’t at that intervention because I think that my wife knew that I wouldn’t be able to be honest. I was so vulnerable to Amy and to my best friend who was not at the intervention. And I believe that hurt you, Amy, because you had a lot to testify to. But I don’t think in that moment I had the courage, strength. I was so bitterly rageful and angry.
Emily Saliers:
But I had an intervention in there. I thought I was going to get on a plane and go to some shows, which shows booked. I had my bags packed. All of a sudden there’s knock on the door, it’s my dad and my sister and our manager and the leader and a friend of mine who I was trying to get sober with who is just incredible sobriety angel to me. And then I was like, “Okay, well, okay, well this is great, but I got to get on a plane.” And they’re like, “No, there’s no plane. You’re going to go to this hospital and they’re going to check out your body to make sure you’re okay. And then you’re going to go to rehab.”
Emily Saliers:
But prior to this, I knew I was alcoholic. I’d go over to my sister’s house and go, “I’m an alcoholic. So I have to drink, okay?” And then I would make them pour me a bourbon. “I have to drink. I’m an alcoholic.” But that was my way of slowly admitting. And then this intervention happened. Because prior to that I had called this rehab center and I had talked to this guy, he was a brother in the Catholic community and I was always drunk when I called him. Like, “Oh. Okay. Yeah. What’s it like and what do you do?” And I’m sure he dealt with people like me all the time. And I decided I would go outpatient for 30 days. That’s what I would do. But then the intervention happened. They take me off to the hospital. I’m okay. And I’ll have any other addictions. And then I’m off to rehab and I stayed there for three months and I couldn’t have gotten sober without it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Emily Saliers:
I tried, but I had such privilege and such access and such false pride and shame. I didn’t know the shame I had until I got sober and I couldn’t bear to tell anybody that I was an alcoholic.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Emily Saliers:
So the change that happens between finally admitting it and getting help, because I truly believe I couldn’t have gotten sober without rehab. And now, the fact that I can talk about it openly, it’s kind of miraculous to me. And then Amy and I went to therapy after that.
Glennon Doyle:
Together?
Emily Saliers:
So Amy could… Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
So that you could work through anger?
Amy Ray:
Just a couple times. Once or twice. Once or twice.
Glennon Doyle:
How did that go?
Emily Saliers:
Yeah, I think twice.
Amy Ray:
Twice. Yes.
Emily Saliers:
So Amy, you can talk about that experience. But I can tell you that in sobriety, well, it’s the hardest fucking thing I’ve ever done. I should not pride about it, but I’m kind of proud I’ve stuck to something this long.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah!
Emily Saliers:
And done the work. It’s so hard sometimes.
Abby Wambach:
It’s so hard.
Emily Saliers:
You just want to get out quickly and you can’t anymore and you have to sit through a lot of discomfort. And the other thing I’m learning now is I lost a whole chunk of my intellectual development, my evolution as a human being. I just deprived myself of that in that time that I was drinking so hard. So now, I feel a lot of catching up and I feel a lot of unworthiness because I’m behind and things like that. So that’s now. But to be sober, to wake up feeling good, to know that you’re not self-destructing, to know that you can be… Like now, I’m accountable to Amy, responsible to us, and to all the people and to my family. I never would’ve had my wife, she would’ve left me. She was going to, or my child and all the most beautiful things in life have come from sobriety.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. And Amy, was it hard for you because this is your best friend, your business? What was it like going through that, from your perspective?
Amy Ray:
I mean, it was super rough. But I have to say to start out with it, it is a huge achievement to get sober, I think, and huge. Everyone that gets sober like that should be proud of it. I know you’re taught humility and all that stuff.
Amy Ray:
And I had stopped drinking when I was about 30, and I didn’t do a program or anything. I mean, people that I went to AlAnon with are always saying, “You should have gone to AA.” And I was like, “Not.” But I stopped drinking because everybody I knew was dying and too drunk. And Emily was drunk all the time and I just needed to differentiate. And I had moved to the mountains and was drinking alone every night. And my best friend Tanner, she said, “Well, we’re both going to just stop drinking at the same time.” So we made this pact and I think I just never… I have alcoholism in my family, but I don’t think I have… I mean, I’m addictive in some degree, but it was just easier for me.
Amy Ray:
I understand the monumental task of getting sober that Emily was up against. And I think it’s a miracle, honestly. Because I saw her before that and I had that vision of like, “I’d rather die than not be able to drink,” is what I heard from her, over and over again.
Glennon Doyle:
I felt that.
Amy Ray:
In action, in word, in everything. And so for me towards the end, it was just chaos. And I was afraid every morning that I’d wake up and hear that she had died in the middle of the night. The tour bus was crazy because Emily would fall out of her bunk or things would happen that were just unmanageable and crazy. And I went to AlAnon, actually, to help me just stay in the band for a couple years.
Amy Ray:
But I think the thing that was the hardest thing for me about all of this was that I would talk to my manager, I would talk to Emily’s friends. No one believed me. For years, no one believed me. So I think that’s the only thing that bothered me about the intervention because I was like, “Wait a minute. I’m the only one that has been talking about this. And all of a sudden, you guys have a wake up call?” This should have been done three years ago.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
And everybody was fighting me on it. Even our manager who I was like, “Russell, I swear to God, you’re not out here, but you need to be. She is not going to survive this. And you are enabling it by just letting us carry on and you’re making money off of us. You need to stop.” He was in full denial and no one would listen to me. And so that was the hardest thing, because I thought I was crazy.
Amy Ray:
And instead people would be like, “Ah, you don’t drink, so you don’t understand. We know you’re not a partier, so you just can’t deal with it.” And I’m like, “I’m not a partier because I can’t deal with that.”
Glennon Doyle:
There’s a reason I’m not.
Amy Ray:
And someone’s got to keep it in the control. I mean, I really just was when Emily gets sober, I’ll start drinking again because then I don’t need to be in control of the situation anymore. Because I think I felt like, “Wow, someone needs to be sober right now because it is like a mess.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
And I think our audience was never really aware of it. But it’s stuff was just going downhill and our music, the shows weren’t as good. And after the shows was always a potential scene outside the tour bus. And so I was just like, “Oh my God, no one understands what’s going on but me.”
Glennon Doyle:
That’s a lot.
Amy Ray:
Not even the people in our crew, because everybody was just partying. Right?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
And so for me it just felt like I felt a little crazy and insane. But I also knew, after going to AlAnon and stuff and doing my own work, that I was part of the problem, too. Because I just kept being confrontational, instead of letting Emily find her own answers in her own way. I was judgemental, judgment, judgment all the time, which is my go-to anyway. Because the way I was raised was by people that were judgmental, some people.
Amy Ray:
So I contributed in so many ways to that shame and that constant thing, because I would just be like, “Well I’m going to be in the band anyway, but I’m going to be judgy all the time.” When, what I should have just done is walk away.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
I should have just walked away from it because it doesn’t help to just make someone feel shame, over and over again. So we were all in our own little system of bad stuff.
Glennon Doyle:
Family. It’s family.
Amy Ray:
It was family and I didn’t want to leave it. But at some point I had decided, and I was like, “I can’t do this anymore. Because it’s just enabling.” This whole system is being enabled by me continuing to play in the band. Because it means that everything can just feel normal all the time.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
We’re making a lot of money, you can sleep all day, and then sing your gig, and then get drunk, and then sleep all day and all that stuff. And at the time I also had… Oh my God, I had just gotten through this terrible bout with endometriosis and I had weighed 20 pounds less and couldn’t eat anything. And that’s endometriosis, stress is a contributor to that. I was losing organs. So-
Glennon Doyle:
That’ll do it.
Amy Ray:
It was a crazy time that feels crazier when both of us are just inside this time and we both know it’s going crazy, but no one else on the outside does. Right?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
So we’re just kind of in our own little world trying to muscle through, everybody’s making money off the Indigo Girls. And we are, too. And it all becomes that absurd to me. That absurd. We’re not playing music for joy right now, we’re playing music because it’s all we know how to do to survive. In every way, spiritually, your soul, and all that stuff. But I think that’s just what we all do. We all get in denial about different things and it had to happen the way it happened, I think, or it wouldn’t have been such a great recovery.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Amy Ray:
Because now, it’s like we fought and Emily fought really super hard. People that I know that have gotten through it, I’m just blown away by their strength.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
People I know that were addicts and heroin addicts or meth addicts or whatever. And I see them recover it and I’m just like, “Oh my God, that’s so hard.”
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a miracle.
Amy Ray:
How did you do that? I can’t even stop eating chocolate.
Emily Sailers:
I want to hear about y’all’s experience, too, if you don’t mind? Y’all-
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, with sobriety?
Emily Sailers:
Yeah, with alcohol and sobriety.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. You know how you’re constantly looking back on your life… And I feel like everything’s just an episode of, “I see dead people.” Somebody changes perspective, I look back on my life and I’m like, “Wait! I need to write another memoir!”
Glennon Doyle:
So I don’t know. I feel like I was probably suppressing sexuality, that’s what I think. Became bulimic when I was 10 and that just morphed into alcoholism. And I got sober when I was 25 and it was a miracle, too. I mean, when I hear you guys talking, it reminds me of me and my sister. Although Amy would be my sister and I would be Emily. And it was so bad that every day feels like a miracle, now.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like when a winter is so freaking dark and then spring comes and you’re like… I feel grateful for it because it reminds me of what you were talking about before, Amy, when there’s a intense fight for something, like my intense fight for being free sexually and then feeling so empowered by it all the time. That’s how sobriety felt to me.
Abby Wambach:
Huh.
Glennon Doyle:
Because I fought so hard for mental health. I walk around most days like, “Holy shit! I am vertical?” Everybody else needs other things-
Abby Wambach:
I know. And it’s so cool-
Glennon Doyle:
And I’m “We’re vertical!”
Abby Wambach:
It’s so cool because she got sober 20 years ago.
Glennon Doyle:
“We’re not on the lamb!”
Abby Wambach:
She still feels this way. This is a 20 year veteran.
Glennon Doyle:
“No one’s arresting me today!” If I get pulled… I’m not going to jail, again, most likely.
Emily Saliers:
I know. Blue lights.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. I’m like “I’m sober! Act sober. Act sober, Glennon.” I’m like, “No I am sober. I don’t have to act sober. How do sober people act?”
Glennon Doyle:
But I want to just talk about spirituality a little bit because you brought up spirituality, Amy. And one of my favorite songs, which, I mean, I spent the week trying to figure that out. It’s impossible to decide. In Second Time Around, you talk about being God-fearing lesbians, which, I don’t know why just that hits. Okay? So from your lives right now, from your perspectives right now, who is this God? Do you still believe in a God? Who is this God for each of you? And are you still afraid of her?
Emily Saliers:
Great question.
Amy Ray:
You go first, Emily.
Emily Saliers:
Oh my God. Okay. I don’t like the word, God. I don’t like any type of language that tries to describe what this thing is that’s beyond human comprehension, any of that.
Emily Saliers:
So there’s not really a word for what I believe, but I believe in it’s more a holy spirit. And I believe in science and I believe in the presence of something that is not of the physical world, that’s in relationship to the physical world and to all of us. I believe in regeneration and that energy isn’t lost. And I just feel like there’s an incomprehensible relationship between energy, spirituality, and the physical world, which is so awesome.
Emily Saliers:
And I know that I got help outside of myself, not only my community and people, it to get sober and to any struggle I have in my life. I know that when I engage in the relationship with this spirit, I’m able to get help, I’m able to get wisdom. And I have almost an unshakeable belief, except if I’m sick. If I get COVID or something or what happens in the world or if children are shot in schools.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Emily Saliers:
Then I’m like, “I don’t know if I really believe this.” And then I just have to get back, centered. So that’s my belief, there is something, it is more powerful, wise, incomprehensible than any of us can know. And it’s not because I have to believe it, it’s because it has shown itself to me in my life and in other people’s lives.
Glennon Doyle:
Gorgeous.
Abby Wambach:
Amy?
Amy Ray:
I don’t really mind if people say God or whatever word they want to use, it doesn’t bother me, because I think we all have constructs that we need to live. Joseph Campbell, the myth, and all that stuff.
Amy Ray:
But I agree with Emily that it’s so limitless. It’s a great mystery. I think the light is within all of us, as the Quakers say, and we all have it. So whatever you call God is within us. But my friend, Katie Pruitt, the songwriter was asking… She’s a recovering Catholic. And she was like-
Abby Wambach:
Me, too.
Amy Ray:
“Where do you divine?”
Amy Ray:
And I was like, “In nature. In science,” as Emily does. I mean, I think science is a fricking miracle.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s an awesome sentence.
Amy Ray:
I find it looking in the stars. And NASA and looking at the jet propulsion lab and JPL women that do all that research. And I find it in Krista Tippett in people that have that, that are in touch, I find it there. But nature is my main thing.
Amy Ray:
I was raised Methodist though and so I have this construct that I still adhere to quite a bit and cling to. I mean, I still have a relationship with my Jesus who is, I guess, non-binary maybe and just called Jesus. I don’t know. I just have a Southern built-in filter, that’s a Southern thing, where you go to church three days a week, but all the time you’re interpreting it your own way in order to gather what you need to be strong. As Abby, I loved youth group. I loved Friday night skating. I loved Bible school. I loved Wednesday night supper. It’s all… I love it. I never don’t love it. But I was taught some pretty bad things, as well. But the good stuff has stayed with me, equally. So I’m still kind of a churchy person sometimes. And I hope the Methodist can get their shit together and start welcoming gay people into the true Methodist church.
Amy Ray:
I think curiosity is a divine thing. I think our spirit, I think our great mystery and our God, whoever that is, whatever that is, what energy it is, reveals itself in our curiosity.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s good.
Amy Ray:
So that’s the beautiful thing that we have in common with animals, too. Dogs are curious. People are curious. Ants are curious, whatever. Curiosity binds us together.
Amy Ray:
And then my partner, Carrie, she always, whenever things really bad happen or someone’s having a really hard time, she says something that’s really comforting. I don’t know if it’s true, but it’s comforting. She always says, “Remember they have their higher power.” Everyone has their higher power. Those kids that died, they have their higher power. In other words, we see what’s in front of us in our little felt world, what we only have. But we don’t see this bigger thing of the souls of those kids or all this stuff. And it’s not comforting when you lose somebody. But it’s the wisdom of that, as Emily says, the long view and just letting that comfort you sometimes is okay. Even in the face of really hard stuff.
Glennon Doyle:
You two, I mean, I think the themes of this hour and the themes of my life, which have been freedom and faith, freedom and sexuality, freedom and sobriety, you two have been my community in freeing myself in all three of those areas. And I know that you don’t know me as well as I know you, but you’ve walked me to freedom in all three of those areas. And I will be grateful for you forever, I will continue to listen to you every single day of my life. And, thank you.
Abby Wambach:
We love you. We love you very much. You’ve brought so much love and joy into our lives.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re the best.
Emily Saliers:
I feel the same way about y’all feeling.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Emily Saliers:
The same exact way. Just you’re just like your lights in the world. And you’re so human, your fallibilities and your vulnerabilities. But you just keep shining y’all’s lights and it’s moving to me. It’s not my false eyelashes. I feel moved. Thank you for that.
Amy Ray:
Yeah. Thanks for all the work y’all do.
Emily Saliers:
Yeah.
Amy Ray:
I mean y’all are mentors to a lot of people and you do a lot of great work and I’m thankful for it. I really am
Emily Saliers:
Me, too.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you, both. And I just forgot that we also have a Pod Squad listening. So also thank you, Pod Squad. I literally forgot that.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. We need to wrap it up.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Okay. Bye! We’ll be back next time. Bye.
Amy Ray:
Love ya. Bye.
Emily Saliers:
Bye.
Glennon Doyle:
We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn’t, don’t worry about it. It’s fine.