Breaking Cycles & Reparenting Yourself with Dr. Becky Kennedy
September 13, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. It’s our favorite time of the week when we get to just sit and talk to you. I just love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love this podcast. Hi babe.
Abby Wambach:
Hey.
Glennon Doyle:
You feeling good?
Abby Wambach:
I’m feeling really good. You’ve changed in the last three seconds because she’s been whispering all morning.
Glennon Doyle:
Here’s why I whisper because Abby went to work out today and when Abby works out, she comes home from the gym and she thinks that she should still talk at the decibels that they talk at the gym. So she screams at me.
Abby Wambach:
I’m just hyped.
Glennon Doyle:
She just screams.
Abby Wambach:
Dr. Becky will know what I have. I’ve got adrenaline running through my veins and it just makes people talk louder.
Glennon Doyle:
So we’re just standing in the bathroom and she’s like, “Hey babe.” So I’m whispering to be a role model.
Glennon Doyle:
All right, I’m super intrigued already by what this conversation will be because I got to tell you, a lot of people in my life have been like, “You must talk to Dr. Becky. You must talk to Dr. Becky. You must learn about Dr. Becky.” Dr. Becky is presented to the world, and I’ll explain why I’m saying this, as a parenting expert. So I avoided Dr. Becky like the plague because my children are baked and I don’t want to know how I fucked them up. It’s too late. I just avoided, avoided.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. I started reading Dr. Becky’s new book and I think that Dr. Becky is a Trojan horse.
Amanda Doyle:
That is the truth.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. I think she’s a Trojan horse. I’ve been reading nonstop for the last week, you know this, I took her book on vacation and I didn’t stop.
Abby Wambach:
The highlighting and the underlining of this book.
Glennon Doyle:
The highlighting, the underlining, the sitting the people down, the making them listen, all the things…
Glennon Doyle:
So here’s the deal, here’s what I think. So untamed, all the work we do on this podcast, and specifically untamed, is about how to recover, not just from addiction, but from the world. How do you recover from the world? How do you figure out and reclaim who you were before the world told you who you had to be.
Amanda Doyle:
Fucked you up.
Glennon Doyle:
Before the world fucked you up. I didn’t try and dad said, maybe we should avoid like six in the first 30 seconds, I was trying to…
Abby Wambach:
Okay, great.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, once again, the world bossing me.
Abby Wambach:
Hey Baba.
Glennon Doyle:
Hi Bubba. So if we’re going to do that, if we’re going to recover who we were before the world told us who to be, then it feels like the step one, the first brick in the yellow brick road to that, to living your one wild precious life, is to begin to trust yourself, your emotions, your dreams, your body, your instincts, your imagination.
Glennon Doyle:
But in order to do that, in order to take that first step, or to experiment with it even, there’s something you have to believe first and that is that you are not bad. All right? That you are not crazy, that you can trust yourself because yourself is good and will not steer you wrong. Now that is the entire premise of Untamed. That’s why Ike said over and over again, you are not crazy, you are a goddamn cheetah, right?
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
So this is why Dr. Becky’s work and book blows my mind and why I’m deeply intrigued by her because the touch tree of her teachings is that we are all good inside. Our parents, our friends, our partners, our children, good inside. Which, by the way, might sound soft and simplistic at first, but is actually completely countercultural and revolutionary and against everything we’re taught. What I feel about her book is that it is not just about parenting children, it’s about reparenting ourselves, and in fact, presenting us a new way to be human. To be in relationship with ourselves and others.
Amanda Doyle:
That is really awesome from the woo-woo higher perspective. But I also feel like there’s this very logical thread throughout all of her work, which is, you act like you do even though it’s inexplicable to you while you keep doing what you keep doing for a very good reason.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And all of your parenting stems from your childhood.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And so the way that you can identify that, and understand yourself and have compassion for yourself the way you act, is the first step to allowing yourself to start down a different way of doing things for your kids.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. Or people. You don’t have to have freaking kids.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, true, true.
Glennon Doyle:
Bunch of stuff helped me with Abby with… Okay. Anyway, let’s let her talk cause she’s actually here and she’s looking at us right now. So that has been our podcast.
Abby Wambach:
We’ve just done a little book report.
Amanda Doyle:
Thank you for coming Dr. Becky
Abby Wambach:
We actually have the author, we have the expert.
Glennon Doyle:
Dr. Becky is a clinical psychologist and mom of three named the Millennial Parenting Whisperer by Time Magazine. Dr. Becky is founder of the Good Inside membership platform, author of Good Inside A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, which is out this month and the one I just read on vacation, so freaking good, and her podcast Good Inside with Dr. Becky was one of Apple podcasts best shows of 2021. We loved Dr. Becky’s practical wisdom, how it centers on reparenting ourselves and how she admits that she follows her own professional advice only about a third of the time and her own wanting. That is why we trust you.
Abby Wambach:
That is exactly why we trust you.
Glennon Doyle:
Hi Dr. Becky.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Hi. I don’t even know what else I have to say. I feel like you guys just summarized it. That might be the whole podcast. That was such an amazingly thoughtful introduction and truly I’m really honored to be talking to the three of you, so thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, absolutely. So we’re all trying to figure out, especially the pods, why, how to stop pleasing and start living? How to live from the inside out and not the outside in? How to stop abandoning ourselves and start believing in ourselves? And you say that the origin of pleasing and self doubt can be found in our first years. So tell us about circuitry and how the reason we’re a little fucked up right now all stemmed back to those first years.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yes. When I think about everything coming from the early years, I feel very apocalyptic about things. Well, who cares anyway? And as much as it’s true that our body wires early, it’s just equally true that our body is always looking to rewire the things that are no longer working for us.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So those two are equally true. So if we think about how a baby comes into the world, this has always amazed me. There’s no not one baby in the world who at four weeks or two months is, am I hungry? But is it too much? Is it too much? Would that baby be hungry? Should I ask them?
Amanda Doyle:
I should be waking up earlier, I’m wasting my life.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
What am I doing? Or I should sleep late because my parents really do need sleep. A baby is just a ball of desire and totally unencumbered in how they let that out. That’s just how babies are. It’s why they’re so inconvenient to adults, because they just have everything coming out. And if we all start that way, we all start that way, how do we get to where so many of us are at some point in adulthood? Which is the place where somebody asking me, what do you want? What do you want is the scariest question somebody could ever ask me. That’s a really big shift.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And so when you think about circuitry, what does that even mean? How I think about it is, we learn a lot in our earliest years. We just know biologically this is not research I’ve done. But the numbers are big that by about age three, they say, there’s like 75% of our earliest circuitry or wiring is in place.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Always amenable to rewiring, okay? But 75% is a lot of percent for years that you can never verbally remember. And these are the years that people will classically say, well they’re not going to remember those years anyway. The first three years you remember with your body, which as adults we know is a much more powerful form of memory than the things that we can recall in storytelling because our body memories dictate our triggers and our reactivity and our automatic assumptions and our knee jerk reactions. So I’ve always found it interesting when someone’s in my practice essentially saying, I’m triggered whenever my kid has a tantrum, but I just don’t remember how my parents reacted to me. And I’m always, really? We’re watching it, I’m watching it happen, we just watch the memory.
Amanda Doyle:
Whatever could it be?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
We have no data!
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Exactly, we have no data. But the things we remember with our words are the things that really work coherently explained to us at a time also that we could really encode verbal memory. So number one, that’s not until after the age of three and number two, a lot of us adults probably know, that our hardest experiences were never put into words for us. That’s actually why they were our hardest experiences. It’s because we were left alone, they were incoherent, they were unformulated experiences, right?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So then what are we left with? Well, you talked about trusting your body. It’s a very simple idea, but I always think, my body today is the same body as when I was one. I have not changed my body and my body has absorbed everything I’ve learned. And kids are very, very crafty. They are built for survival, they are so smart, they are more perceptive than we are because their body depends on it and they have to figure out a way to adapt to the environment they’re in.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
There’s no option as a two year old to say, my parents are not very attentive to my needs so I am going to, I don’t know what, go get another parent? I’m going to leave my house and find someone who notices my emotions. No, you just have to figure it out and survive with those caregivers because those caregivers are key because you’re so dependent.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So what happens as you’re wiring your body? Something called procedural knowledge. How does the world work? What parts of me get smiles and hugs and attention and nice looks and what parts of me get dart eyes and sent to my room and distance? So really kids are measuring what parts of me truly physically get closeness and what parts of me bring a gap, bring distance? And then they take it a step further. I better bring out those parts of me that get smiles and that get pats on the back and that get love and that get questions. I like getting questions that’s interest, that’s connection. And those parts of me that have led to yelling to being sent to my room, to punishment, to physical abuse, to any of those really attachment threatening moments, well, I better put those parts of me so far away and I better develop systems to keep those parts of me far away because as long as I can, I can survive in this world.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And so our body actually wires, develops circuits around those lessons of safety versus danger.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
So I’m going to offer a very personal example and ask you to tell me if this is what you’re talking about. I have spent most of my life trying to figure out how to change my thinking about food and body and all of that. That’s not a surprise to anyone listening. When you talked about in the book about we hide things about ourselves that don’t get the reaction that we want, that threaten our connection because we desperately need connection for survival. We sense, especially a highly sensitive kid, could sense what parts of herself are making her parents uncomfortable and stop doing that thing.
Glennon Doyle:
So for me, one of the things I love about your work is how we can openly think about how we parented and not judge ourselves for it. Just understand it was different times we were doing the best we can. But, in my family body stuff and food stuff is a hot topic. My parents, as a young child, were for sure uncomfortable with my appetite. Is it possible, based on your theory, that a child whose parents were worried that they had a little girl who was chubby and who was going to keep getting chubbier, so would send her signals at dinner and around food to shut that part of herself down, might develop what could be an eating disorder? Because, if I’m having to shut down hunger, because that threatens my connection, then wouldn’t I, perhaps, find bulimia where I can, in a hidden place, indulge that part of myself that threatens my connection in the light?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Such a good example of how we can jump into this. So thank you for sharing that. I know you talk about it always, everybody always appreciates how open you are. Here’s what I would say. First of all, for everyone listening, I really don’t think when a kid is struggling with something my perspective is never like, oh hey parents, you caused that. That’s never my perspective. My perspective is more nuanced. A kid is struggling and a parent is a leader of a system. And it’s always the leader’s responsibility to figure out how they can shift something in the environment to help other people in the system thrive and change.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So I just think it’s not our fault as parents, it’s our responsibilities. So I don’t think you caused that in your kid. Even for your parents, I’m sure your parents were doing the best they could with the resources they had available at the time. Still weren’t good enough, right? Still true.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So, when you talk about even the size you were as a kid or your hunger, and I know you know this anyway, to me, I don’t think about food when I think about eating disorders. I think about … You were talking about the size of your wants and how much you’re allowed to want. That’s what everything always goes back to, desire. What am I allowed to want? And what I hear you saying is, what I wanted was uncomfortable for my parents. My parents wanted me to want less. And my parents didn’t want me to want so big they feared that if I kept wanting so big I’d be bigger and bigger and bigger, and we can think about that in so many meetings of big and space and taking up space. And so then one of the attachment lessons I learned, and again for everyone listening not at one meal, this is not a single entity. One of the lessons I learned is that the more I allow my wants to come out, the less safe my family life is going to feel for me.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And temperament comes into play here because then it comes out as an eating disorder. But I always think that’s just a manifestation of a much bigger, more nuanced story. It’s either, and so much of this is temperament and other factors like, I’m just going to not want. I’m going to not want, right?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
I’ve been open too, I struggled with anorexia as a kid. That was my solution to how much I was allowed to want. I’m just going to not want, I’m going to develop a part of me that so cuts my desires off from ever surfacing. And if I could just not want, that’s my solution. Other people with different temperaments, bulimia is more of a no, no, no, I’m going to want, or my wants are winning. I’m not going to not want, but I have to want in a way that only I know. I’m going to keep my wants separate. And then after I’ve let those wants come to the surface, my attachment fears are so great. There’s a part of me that’s, you’re going to up your whole life. What the fuck did you do? I better get those wants out of my body. And there’s back and forth.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Because in a family, if a family is commenting and really concerned with, let’s say, their daughter eating too much. If I was working with that family, I’d be like, that’s happening. I have to imagine that’s coming out in other ways. I have to imagine that there would also be a problem, let’s say, if that kid’s in, I don’t know, in a toy store and having a meltdown because we’re here to buy a present for my cousin for her birthday but actually I really, really want that train set too. And not to say you need to buy the kid the train set, but what happens in terms of how that kid is taught to relate to their underlying desire? My guess is, that would be as shamed, quote, “wanting too much food.”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
It’s funny, I think you all know Myleik Teele. Myleik and I always talk about wanting our kids, when they get older, especially our daughters, we talk about preservation of their access to desire. We want them to still be able to access it. And it’s so easy to turn that off for kids.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s also pressure from culture too. Our parents are doing the best they can because they think they’re trying to prepare their girls for a culture that hates women who desire. They’re a little bit right. The world doesn’t allow ambition and anger and desire and hunger and appetite and sexuality.
Glennon Doyle:
When I was reading your thing, I thought about sexuality too. In our family sexuality was not discussed and it was tamped down and it made me think, okay, it makes sense that I wouldn’t have explored sexuality.
Glennon Doyle:
What do we do for kids when we send them signals that their desire, their natural good sexual desire is a threat to their connection because we can’t handle it.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yeah. Desire, pleasure. There’s so many ways that comes out and yes, especially for young girls. Yeah, it’s really shut down.
Amanda Doyle:
I love your whole approach of curiosity. To me is so accessible to people who don’t have a lot, I’m speaking for myself, significant amount of tools in this area is just, curiosity being the opposite of shame. So when we’re reacting a certain way, knowing that every response started as a childhood adaptation, and so, being curious, what was I adapting to? I keep doing this thing that’s not working for me. Why?
Amanda Doyle:
And I was listening to you talk about that. You were advising someone who had a very complicated relationship with exercise and they were like, it makes me feel better. Why don’t I do it? Why don’t I do what I know makes me feel better? And you were talking about how when you’re dreading doing something that is good for you, that means that that started as an adaptation. Which means that some part of you is protecting you because of your circuitry. You were wired that way to protect yourself.
Amanda Doyle:
Now asking, is that still necessary? And actually thanking that part of you. Thank you for your years of service of protecting me and you can stop leading. Now this other part can step forward. And it made me think like what you were just saying, G., about our parents are doing this to protect us.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
It is possible to create children that, because you’re being fully authoritative, who function the way we want them to function. That is very, very possible. They can get the A’s, they can act right in front of the people, they can be polite, they can never have wants. And those parents sometimes look like they’re doing, quote, unquote “the best”, right?
Amanda Doyle:
Because they’re kids are the best performers. They’re like little soldiers walking around doing everything they should. But if every response is a childhood adaptation, you have to assume that, under that, all of those adaptations are going to be the very ones that once those kids grow up are totally fucked.
Glennon Doyle:
That was me. It was me.
Amanda Doyle:
So it was so happy, to me, to be like, Oh my god! The parents that seem most out of control now are maybe the ones developing the most healthy adaptations. That maybe they’re paying for it early but later those adaptations are actually going to take them into life and help them function.
Glennon Doyle:
So what I hear Dr. Becky saying is that if your kids are ass holes, well done. What do you think about that?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yeah. So look, I think when our kids are young, the qualities that we praise in them, or that society praises in us as if there are reflection, are compliance, are subservient, are like total pliability, right? You take a kid to a gymnastics class or something at a place they’ve never been to, and it’s the kid who is like, I guess I’ll go with that person. And I guess I’ll sit because everyone’s like, wow Becky, if that was my kid, which it’s definitely not, you are an amazing parent.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Now I don’t know any parent who’s like, do you know what I hope for my 30 year old? I hope they blindly follow people’s directions. I really hope they do. No one actually thinks that. And again, how we interact with our kids and what we show them is important and what we, in that situation almost like, behavior, shaped them toward. That’s not just going to be released from them when they’re 30.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And then yes, you have a kid who’s older and you’re thinking, why doesn’t my kid stand up for themselves? They were in this situation, they should have known better. They should have said no. Well that’s not different at age 30 than making sure your kid blindly follows the gymnastics teacher’s instructions versus a kid at, let’s say, five who’s standing next to me? And this would be like, I don’t know, I’m just not ready to join the party.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And this can be intense shame for a parent. What’s wrong with my kid Although again at 30 you want your kid to be like, oh, what’s going on here? Let me assess before I jump in. Let me do what I’m comfortable with, not necessarily what my peers are comfortable with. We call shyness early on what we call confidence later on.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And then we call confidence early on what we call blindly following the crowd later on. So there’s a lot in between, total compliance and total assholeness. I think we don’t have to choose between those two buckets. I really don’t think so. But certainly helping kids develop into adults who have a sense of themselves, who trust themselves, who know themselves, who, what we are saying, I always think, who gaze in before they gaze out. Right? Gazing in first is hugely protective to our mental health. What do I want? What am I comfortable with? What do I know in this situation? Well they are just going to be more inconvenient in childhood. It’s going to be more inconvenient.
Abby Wambach:
I just keep thinking about the time that we took the girls to a swimming lesson. Right now, I’m just going through all the moments where I think I’ve royally fucked them up. I said, Glennon, they’re going to want to get out of the pool and they have to finish this workout.
Glennon Doyle:
I was, like hell they do. We’ll see.
Abby Wambach:
And halfway through their workout, Tish gets out of the pool, Amma stays in the pool at the edge hoping that her big sister could talk me into letting them out of the pool. And I just said, you got to get back in the pool and finish. You’re going to be okay. You’re not going to die. You got to get back into the pool and finish. And here’s really interesting, I think about the two of them.
Abby Wambach:
Tish is the one that got out of the pool and she actually has, at this point in their lives, more voice to vocalize what she wants. And Amma didn’t get out of the pool because she was hoping her big sister would do it for her and I think that I really fucked them up.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Abby, you did not maternally fucked her up. And also, here’s where I think we give parents language for the in-between. Because there might be someone being like, so my six year old never wants to do, It’s something, I just never let them do something. What’s in-between? Never making them do something and always making them do something?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Here’s where I think is this in between thing that we forget about. This, I call two things are true. You can say to a kid, let’s say it’s in that situation, you really don’t want to finish your swim lesson. I believe you. First of all, that’s like the three most important words to say to a kid. I believe you. I believe you really don’t… whatever it is, I believe the water is cold, I believe you’re really tired, I believe this is zero fun. And here’s this, it could be a million things, we paid for this lesson, and I know it’s hard, and I know you can finish it.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
I really believe we can finish this lesson and then reassess lessons going forward, whatever it is. But we can hold at once. Holding a decision that feels pretty right as a parent, as a leader and still seeing and naming and validating a kid’s experience as real. It’s the difference between saying, we’re here to get a present for your cousin. What’s wrong with you? You’re so spoiled, you don’t appreciate anything. Versus it’s really hard to be in a toy store and see toys and not be able to get them.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
I believe you want this one, it’s so big. I’m going to actually take a picture of it and we’re going to remember this later on. My answer is still, no. I know this is so hard. I’m going to hold you as we’re leaving the store because you seem not to be able to get off the floor by yourself.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
I’m honoring my kid as a real person and I’m validating their desire even as I hold my no decision.
Glennon Doyle:
Because you said, and I feel this is one of the most groundbreaking things that we’ve been trying to talk about over and over on this podcast. And you said it so freaking succinctly and beautifully.
Glennon Doyle:
We have a job and our job is to draw the boundary and they have a job and their job is to be able to react however the hell they want. But can you say it in your very better way.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yes. Family jobs is really a grounding idea for me because… I always think, if you went to a job in an office and you were starting your job and your boss was like, do your job, well see you at the end of the day! How did you feel at the end? And you didn’t know what your job was. You would be like, how am I going to feel good at my job? I just don’t know what my lane is.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
The most amazing person couldn’t succeed there. So we have to know what our job is. In a family system, which is the same as any system, we have job description. So a parent’s job, in my mind, is three interrelated things. Boundaries, validation and empathy.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Boundaries answer a kid’s question, am I safe? And boundaries are decisions we make. Boundaries are also sometimes physical boundaries. I might be holding a kid’s wrist and saying, I’m not going to let you hit your brother. I know you really want those blocks. I’m putting space in between the two of you. We’re going to figure this out. But I’m actually physically holding that boundary.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
In that example, I also did validation and empathy. I wasn’t making my kid a bad kid. I understood they want blocks. That’s hard. And so, those often go together. So boundaries answer, am I safe? Validation and empathy. I could cry saying, think about this, I think, answer a kid’s question, am I real? Am I real? Do the things that I feel inside me that have no markers in the outside world, are they real?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And when we say to a kid, you really want that toy, when we say, I’m not comfortable having you go to that kid’s house even though all the other seniors your year are going there, my answers still no. I know that this is probably the worst thing for an 18 year old to hear and you just are counting down the moments until you’re out of my house and I get that and my answers no. And I love you, and I know you’re so mad, but we’re going to get through this. You’re saying to them, you are real. That’s our job.
Glennon Doyle:
Why are you crying?
Abby Wambach:
I’ve cried three times during this.
Glennon Doyle:
I know. Just so you know, Dr. Becky, Abby keeps crying and so I just want to talk about what’s going on.
Abby Wambach:
Well it’s just so emotional to hear all the different ways that could have been for me and all the different ways that I can be different for our kids. Because I think every family has, and every person no matter what, even if you had the most beautiful childhood, we all need something to overcome. And there is so much, there’s so much stuff in my family dynamic that I know all of my brothers and sisters go through.
Abby Wambach:
It’s just so important to hear this stuff, to be able to unlearn or rewire or recircuit ourselves as adults. We don’t have to be those little kids. We can change things. I don’t know.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s such a different way of looking at it because, isn’t it true Dr. Becky that we’re all, for some reason, we do the opposite. So our kid is upset and we tell them… Okay so, the swim lesson, we tell them, this is not scary. They’re like, I’m scared, this is not scary. It’s hard, it’s not hard. We just, we’re taught that gas lighting is a parenting strategy, that we can just distract. So what we’re saying to them then is, you cannot trust your instincts and this is not real and you’re crazy.
Amanda Doyle:
And I don’t understand you and I’ll never understand you and so therefore you’re going to have to hide the part of you that continues to assert itself when I continue to say, that isn’t true.
Abby Wambach:
I believe you.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And there’s this phrase I always think about. It’s not mine, but especially for kids, I think for adults too, I am as I am seen. I can’t understand you, really is, I am understandable. I can’t be with this part of you. This part of me cannot be met with presence. And that realness factor, when a kid is, I’m scared, and you get back, this is not scary, it really is an existential threat to not feel real in a moment.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And then if you wonder why saying to a kid, what are you talking about? This isn’t scary, elicit such an intense reaction, well, it’s the same reaction we have when we tell someone as an adult how we’re feeling and they’re basically like, no, you’re not. And it is an existential threat to realness in that moment. There are some kids, and Glennon, you talked about being a deeply feeling person, deeply feeling kids is a passion project of mine.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Those kids have the biggest existential threat to their realness of any subset of kids. I think deeply feeling people are very porous so they feel more things and they feel things more intensely and therefore their expressions are even more intense. Which almost pull for a not so empathically inclined adult to meet them with, you’re overreacting, you’re such a drama queen. Which leads to further escalations, not to be dramatic, but to prove their realness, to prove their existence.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And there’s these nasty spirals that happen in family systems around that for years and years. And then it usually does, it can take to adulthood. I’m reclaiming the fact that I’m a real adult. And before we’re able to say to our kids, oh wait, this swim lesson is scary. We have to find ourselves in a situation where, I don’t know, could be anything like, I’m going to the store to get an everything bagel and they’re out of everything bagels and I’m really upset. I have to say to myself, you know what Becky? I am disappointed about that. That is real. I’m allowed to feel that way.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
If I want to say to my kid, it’s okay to be scared, take your time. You’ll know when you’re ready. Well, I’m not going to be able to do that to them unless I’m truly actively practicing doing that with myself. We can’t give out what we haven’t practiced giving it.
Glennon Doyle:
No, because otherwise, and this is what’s so important about what you say, otherwise we’re just controlling our behavior. We’re trying to get their behavior controlled. When you think about how do I parent differently, and honestly why I never read parenting books, is because it always feels like a bunch of behaviors I’m supposed to do to elicit behaviors from them when, what is true is, I actually have to work out my own shit. So, I’m different.
Glennon Doyle:
For example, a deeply feeling kid is at a dinner table and wanting to be hungry. A parent doesn’t have to say anything, a deeply feeling kid can notice their parents’ internal discomfort with their hunger from a look, from a noise, from a quietness. And so that parent can’t change that unless they’re working on their own that came from their parents. Which is why going back to the circuitry, it’s such a gift to ourselves. I felt that reading your book like, oh, I’m figuring out why I am this way because hunger was a threat to my connection.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Exactly, exactly. And in a kid’s job, just to finish that and then we could get back to internal family systems which is my obsession, is, I really believe a kid’s job in their earliest years is to feel and experience their entire range of emotions. That’s actually their job. And knowing that is really grounding, especially when you do have those three year olds who are having a tantrum where we’ve been told like, oh it’s a sign, as if they don’t respect me or they’re a bad kid, we have these stories versus they’re actually doing their job.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Because in my private practice for the years I saw so many adults, I always think, I never met an adult who told me, my parents successfully got rid of all my jealousy and all my frustration. Never. We know it’s laughable because as adults you feel it just the same as a two year old, except arguably, the stakes are higher.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So, either when you’re 18 and 40 and 60, either you’re prepared with skills to manage the hardest feelings of life, or you have the same feelings as everyone else. You’re just as prepared as you were when you were two. And you can’t learn to regulate feelings you don’t allow yourselves to have. It’s just impossible. If you want to manage a feeling in your body, it has to be allowed to live in your body.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And so kids are trying to figure out how to manage these feelings and we often come at them with a don’t have those feelings approach versus wow, right now your feelings are just outpacing your ability to manage those feelings and my job is to help increase those abilities for the rest of your life.
Amanda Doyle:
Precisely on that issue of the things that we won’t let ourselves feel relating to our circuitry, when you say that we all think our kids are going to heal us, but really our kids just provoke us, it’s because… I was like ding-ding-ding. It’s precisely those areas where our kids express the things that we weren’t allowed to express and we respond to them, not responding to them. We respond to them in the circuit that we were responded to. So we’re basically yelling at ourselves in those places. Can you talk about that?
Glennon Doyle:
And not just with our kids, with our partners, with our friends.
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly, with everyone.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
With anyone who really evokes our earliest attachment system. So ironically, it’s like the people we really have the most love for in. The more intense our attachment with someone, the more intensely they’re going to trigger the same circuits from our earliest love attachment relationships. Triggers are like my obsession. So thank you for teeing me up, I appreciate that.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So, my son, my oldest of three, so I have three kids, my oldest is almost 11 which is crazy, he has such freedom to his desire and asking. And there have been times, of course, where I get so triggered by him I end up having things spew out of me.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Can you ever just accept no for an answer? Can you ever make my life easier? Actually that’s like my favorite one, right? You just make my life easier one time. And he’s just so unthoughtful, he’s like, “chill.”
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
But that’s so triggering for me. And going back to my good girl upbringing, which I feel like I’ve taken a 180 from very proudly. I learned early on, let me look out essentially for what people want of me rather than let me look in first for what I might want for myself. My son looks in.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And I’ll do the whole, no, he can’t have a sleepover tonight or no, we’re done with screen time, whatever it is. And then he asks again and again that triggers me. We look to shut down in others what we had to shut down in ourselves. That’s the trigger moment. We look to kind of close the gap because our body essentially takes inventory. So my son asked and asked and asked, my body’s like, what do I know about this? What do I know about asking and asking and asking for what you want?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And then there’s a protector part of me in a IFS language, there’s true protector parts who’s like, oh, desire? Desire? I’ll help the system. I know what to do. And then they end up saying things that maybe, I don’t even know if my parents ever said to me, why can’t you make our life easier? I think I probably learned my lessons before those words had to even be said. But actually what we do in our body is, when we learn that something is dangerous, that part of us is non conducive with attachment, we develop our own parts to talk to those parts to front end that attachment threat.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Essentially, if I was a kid being, you know what? I do want to go to that sleepover. I’m going to ask again. I’m going to ask again. I would develop a part of me that probably wouldn’t even let me leave my room to ask and I’d be like, Becky, what is wrong with you? You were so selfish. Your parents do so much for you. Can you make their life easier for one moment?And then that successfully shuts it down.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So now my son 30 years later asks that part of me, puts her finger up and she’s like, I know how to handle this. But like you said, Amanda, my son is a total pawn in my game. He is an object and not a subject. And I think there’s so many things I could say about how we can work on our triggers, but I think that the biggest shift in framework is, what we’re triggered by in our kids is usually a sign of a part of us we need to grow in ourselves. We usually need to be inspired by our kid. It’s funny, when I was really finding this triggering with my son, when he was especially younger, I do random things to work on this. What would he do if he was in a store and the manager told me, oh, you’re on day 31, you can’t return this thing that doesn’t work anymore. I don’t think he would say, oh okay, sorry for asking.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
He’d probably be like, I want to talk to someone else. I’m pretty sure I’ve been a customer for a long time and I really want to get my money back. He’d probably say that. I don’t know what would happen, but he’d speak up. And when his friend said, oh we need to change dinner locations, can you come closer to me instead? He’d probably say, no no no, I went downtown last time and I live uptown so I really would like to stick to that uptown location.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And the interesting thing I really found was, the more I worked totally outside on parenting on that part of myself, which comes from, like you said, reminding my own protectors, hey it’s not 1990 anymore. I know it’s dark in there. I would say that I know you don’t know, but I’m now an adult and I’m going to show you over time that I have more freedom to experiment and you’re still going to protest because that’s your job. You’re a part of me, you’re not the CEO of me, so you can stay at the board table but maybe sit down. I can make this decision for us.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And coming at that from a place of respect. And yes, that’s my favorite line, you said it earlier, thank you for your years of service, we have to thank the parts of us that were put in place to protect us before those parts are willing to step back. And then, then, we can show up differently to our kids.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
But then we can also show up differently. Because people are like, that’s a lot of work. And I’m like, well, yes and no. It’s a lot of work to feel guilty and spiraling about what a parent you are. Like that’s also work. But the work, this work, not only does it benefit your kid, first of all, this is going to benefit you.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So many people, right? Or like, I asked for a raise for the first time. Cool! That actually impacts your life! That’s amazing. It’s such a network effects.
Amanda Doyle:
This is the right kind of hard.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s not about the kids. It’s, exactly, they’re both hard. It’s the right kind of hard. So example, a line in the book that was, “Whenever you’re triggered by somebody, don’t try to shrink the thing in the other person. Try to grow the thing in yourself.”
Glennon Doyle:
I was writing in the margins, “Not about my kids,” I was writing about my marriage. So when Abby is laying on the couch, God forbid. In the middle of the effing day! Okay?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
There’s stuff to do!
Glennon Doyle:
For God’s sakes, Dr. Becky. But honestly, hustle culture and our family and sister, hustle culture was serious. If my dad was out of the house and I was sitting on the couch, when I heard the car come, the gravel driveway, I would stand up and just grab a dust drag. Yes, just start to look freaking busy. Internal family systems would say that a part of me developed that said, you stay busy Glennon in order to stay connected. In order to stay safe, you stay busy. And so, when I see Abby relaxing, I have to say to myself, not try to say, oh really? There’s another vampire movie at two? No, Dr. Becky.
Abby Wambach:
A Vampire movie?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, it’s always a zombie or something. Anyway, the point is, it’s upsetting.
Abby Wambach:
It’s a siesta.
Glennon Doyle:
But the reason it’s upsetting is not that I’m supposed to shrink her self-permission. I’m supposed to grow the part of myself that actually wants to rest. So I say, thank you self for taking care of me in my childhood home by making sure I stayed busy. But the rules are different now. I
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
100%. And I think there’s such amazing opportunities in marriage or partnership in any way that we can’t exactly do with our kid because the dynamic is different, where… I have that same thing with my husband. For years it’d be like, but there’s like the dishwasher and the laundry. There’s so much stuff to do. I didn’t even understand, how could you be sitting on the couch?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And then in my family, I feel, it was more value and morality messages around, we’re people who get up early and there was always stuff like that. So I was absorbed that way. It was almost, maybe a little less obvious, but the way you’re a good person is by doing doing doing as much as you can.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
A couple things. I think, first of all, saying to yourself that this thing is triggering to me, let me almost reverse the story. Also, for Abby to know when you do snap, like, come on, get off the couch. What are you doing? Or whatever you’d say, it’s not her responsibility to think this, but to know Abby, that is actually Glennon’s way of trying to love you and help you in that moment.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah! She’s trying to keep you from getting in trouble! You’re going to get in trouble. Dad is going to be here in like 30 seconds!
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Exactly, right? Exactly. And then being able to say. I’ve said to my husband, and it was so hard to say, the first time. I hated it. I was, I need your help sitting on the couch. I need your help. I remember having this thought, and it was the opposite of my thought because you can be in your own room kind of just cycling, what’s wrong with my husband? What’s wrong with my why? She’s so lazy. Thank goodness I have a partner who helps me honor rest and relaxation. Thank goodness. I married the right person.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And then even to bring it to your relationship, it’s a really big shift for that partner to hear, I need your help sitting. This is important. It actually is important to pause in the middle of the day. And just realizing after that, the house doesn’t fall apart, nothing horrible happens. It will be distressing. Because anytime we’re rewiring something and our body, our body really resists that with good reason because it is confused. It would be the equivalent of you saying to your dad, fuck the desk drags, I’m just relaxing. I’m guessing you would never have said that.
Glennon Doyle:
No. I’m scared, you just said it. I’m scared.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Right? So talking to that distress is so important. Yes, this is a new moment. New circuits are deeply uncomfortable to build. It’s the starting of paving a road. That’s not the same as driving down a road you’ve been down a billion times. And in some ways that distress, I think, it feels like anxiety really, is the best evidence we have of like, oh wait, I’m changing right now. If I can tolerate this 10 more seconds on the couch, that is 10 seconds toward change. It’s almost being grateful for that feeling. Your body’s giving you a signal that you’re doing something like so right for you.
Glennon Doyle:
So the anxiety’s not a signal that you should stop doing it, but that you should stay with it.
Abby Wambach:
Can we get back to explaining internal family systems? Because, I really think we have to dig into this because this is super interesting to us.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yes. Internal family systems wasn’t something I learned in grad school, but kind of came to. And Dick Schwartz, who’s the founder of the whole theory, I just feel like he understands the mind in a way that I’ve never heard it explained. First of all, the foundation of IFS is our mind is multiple. We all have parts. And the idea of parts of us has been kind of relegated to multiple personality disorder, but we all have parts. In multiple personality disorder, those parts have very little connection or awareness of each other which proves to be problematic. But we all have parts and as we grow up, what happens is we learn these attachment lessons, parts of us get met with love. And when we even think someone being like, well, I don’t know about what parts, but definitely being angry wasn’t allowed. Well the part of you that feels angry, we could say, was a no-go.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So what do you do then? Well then our body develops these protector parts and protector parts, and Glennon you would be obsessed with this one how it applies to bulimia, but have two functions. There’s the manager level, which is just the day to day stuff we do to keep things at bay. That might be intellectualizing, that might be staying really busy, that might be doing, doing, doing, doing is a great manager for anger or for what my real desires are.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
But at some point our manager parts stop working. We break through. Then we have firefighter parts. Those are the parts that quickly, and those might be the vomiting, those are the drug use. Those are, the management system didn’t exactly work so I just got to put out this fire to get me back to safety as soon as possible.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And IFS therapy is really a way of working, of looking at the things you struggle with through this language of parts and understanding the roles that each of these parts play from a place of compassion and really deep appreciation for the way this kind of system helped you developed. And then the belief really is these parts are kind of extreme. Like, managing things all the time or firefighting. These parts don’t want to do their jobs in such an extreme way. Through this process of unburdening these lessons we’ve learned about ourselves, the way that we feel bad inside through a process and an IFS therapy, our parts remain, but they become much more moderate and much more in line with continuing to serve our needs in adulthood rather than a manifestation of what we had to do in childhood.
Glennon Doyle:
You mentioned feeling bad inside. When you say that we have to start with the belief that we are all good inside. I think I’ve spent my whole life trying to figure out if I’m bad or good.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re good.
Abby Wambach:
You’re good.
Glennon Doyle:
Since I had a rough start of life with all the addiction and ruining everyone’s lives, I’m always trying to figure out, was I a good person acting bad the first half of my life and now I’m a bad person acting good? Which? Where am I going to land? What am I? Right?
Amanda Doyle:
So what’s the verdict?
Glennon Doyle:
What’s the verdict? You talk about all of your work starting with the belief that we’re good inside and I think it’s revolutionary. It goes against everything we’re taught about original sin, it goes against misogyny, it goes against racism. Can you talk to us about good inside and how it changes how we see ourselves and partners and kids and even strangers?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yes. So when I was in private practice and wanting to do more parenting work, I was like, I’m going to go get extra training for how to work with parents. So I went to this very evidence based gold standard parenting program and it was all about time-outs and sticker charts and punishments and rewards and ignoring. What we were talking about before, I didn’t realize it at the time, honestly, at the time, the logical part of my brain was just lit up. And it was like, this is amazing, this is so linear and so perfect!
Glennon Doyle:
You solved it! It solved parenting!
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yeah! More of the good, extinguished the bad. That’s how you raised children. I really did at first. I was eating it up. But, it really struck me, this is just a system of shaping behavior. This is a system of behavioral control. I’ve always thought of control and trust as opposites.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
We only control that or who we can’t trust. And so I was like, well this is a system of not trusting kids. I don’t have to shape their behavior and give them stickers and punish them if I didn’t kind of trust that there was something inherently good that we could bring out. When I was in that program it wasn’t like, we believe kids are bad inside. Nobody says that, right?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
But it’s kind of pernicious that they don’t because I do think that’s the operating assumption. There really was a time in my private practice, truly, I was sharing with the parents how to give their kids a time-out. I was doing this thing I learned truly in the middle of session, I stopped myself. I was like, I don’t believe what I’m going to do, truly. They looked at me horrified and they were, okay, yeah, great. And I’m just like, I’m going to give you your money back.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
They were, well, that’s like the least of our concerns right now. We really need help.
Amanda Doyle:
Can you just please keep telling us we don’t care if we believe it.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yeah. Yeah. Just finish it. We just need something. But one of the things I realized is no parent feels good doing any of those things. No parent likes to make time-out. No parent likes saying no TV for a week. No parent likes threatening their kids or giving sticker charts even. But we feel really bad feeling confused and we really need clarity.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Feeling confused with your kids is such a bad feeling. I remember thinking after that session like, well how do I work with adults and what do I know helps adults? I do believe adult symptoms were all adaptations as kids. I believe adults are, they’re good, they’re good people struggling. I do really do believe, and this is I think one of the biggest things, when kids are acting out I really believe that kids feel whether they’re being looked at, as a good kid having a hard time, or a bad kid doing bad things, period.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And how they feel that, and also as a parent, which perspective we have determines everything that we do. Because if we’re a bad kid, we see our kids, a bad kid doing bad things and we punish them, we do all the things.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So I was like, kids are good inside. Yes, they don’t have skills. Yes, they need help. Yes, they need much firmer, more active boundaries from us so they don’t keep doing the things that make them act out that also make them feel out of control. But everything really came from there.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
If kids are good inside, I realized, we have this gap. And when I have a gap, I think all of us, when we have a gap in knowledge, we can be curious. And being able to activate curiosity is I think the single most important thing in human relationships. Well why is my kid who’s good inside hitting her brother? Why is my who’s good inside lying to my face? Why is my kid who’s good inside staying out till 2:00 AM even though I said they have to be back at midnight? Whatever it is.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Now, I don’t know. Now I have a gap between their behavior and their identity. And I think the reason we insert such badness into our kids is because we end up intervening as if their behavior is a sign of who they are, rather than assuming that who they are is a good person and that their behavior is a sign of something they’re struggling with or a set of skills they don’t yet have.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. So we use as example, a lot of kids hitting their sister because they want their mom’s attention or they feel left out or they feel lonely or they’re struggling with that thing. I, when I read that part was thinking so much about, okay, if kids are good inside and we are good inside, then it helps me to think, also my parents were good inside.
Glennon Doyle:
So you say, you’re curious. Then why were they worried about the food thing? Then why were they… Because they were trying to prepare me the best they could for what the culture… It just helped me so much to think backwards to everybody being good inside.
Glennon Doyle:
Can you talk about lying?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Because I was a big freaking liar my whole childhood. Lie, lie, lie, lies all the time. Lies, lies, lies, lies. And I’ve always been like, why was I such a liar? But-
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
You wanted attachment.
Glennon Doyle:
You helped me understand. So, talk to us about lying and why liars are great.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Perfect. I will walk down that street. Here’s why. Liars are great. Okay.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Well kids truly, and adults, if we’re oriented by attachment, that really is the primary evolutionary system to keep us alive, how do I stay in relationship with my parents? How do I literally in a proximity way, stay close to them? Then, let’s say, I don’t know, you failed your test and you don’t want to tell them. Or you stole money from them to go to a concert and they’re like, Did you steal money from me?
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
And maybe they saw you steal money. They literally saw, they have a video. They’re like, I saw this. And you’re like, I didn’t do it. Lies can get really aggressive compared to reality. Well, again, if I go to… Why would my kid, who’s a good kid, why would my kid, who’s a good kid, lie to my face? Why? Why would someone who’s good lie to someone’s face? Again, now we can get curious and I think kids in those situations lie for a couple reasons.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Number one is to preserve attachment. In a moment, if I believe I’m going to say something that’s going to get me punishment or distance, or even that look of you’re a bad kid, you’re a bad kid… Some parents, it was punishment. For some parents, it’s the disappointment look that also just communicated you’re a bad kid you don’t meet my expectations in life. If I know it’s going to be met with judgment and distance, my body every single time is going to protect my attachment through having longer and longer and longer until maybe that truth actually comes out. I’m just maximizing survival at every moment. And we can’t beat our bodies’ evolutionary systems. We wouldn’t want to. In that moment, that’s what someone is doing.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
I think a lot of times parents will say to me then, oh, so it’s okay that my kid just lied to my face? And I often think, again, it’s just this black and white thinking we can have. There has to be something between, tell me the truth or go to your room, you’re grounded for a week, and oh, it’s totally fine, no big deal. Those are not the only two buckets.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
The biggest thing with lying is, if your kid is lying to you in a consistent way, I think the hard mirror of that is something’s really off our relationship. My child feels like there’s a lot of things that are off limits to tell me because they’re scared of my reaction. Now they live in my house, but if I want to have a relationship with my kid when they’re older, guess what? They’re still going to do things that are tricky and hard. That’s actually where they need my help the most.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
That’s literally where they need my help the most. And I haven’t made myself a part of their life in that way.
Amanda Doyle:
And you can understand because that’s literally why I lie.
Abby Wambach:
Exactly. Me too!
Amanda Doyle:
I lie to preserve attachment. I don’t want people to think different of me. I don’t want them to reassess our relationship on the basis of this inconvenient truth.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
And that’s also weirdly why sometimes most afraid to tell the truth i.e. set boundaries with my kids. I’m trying to preserve the attachment with them and I’m afraid of the risk of doing that. So you can have empathy.
Glennon Doyle:
Talk about that, Dr. Becky, because I just want to be clear, when you said our job is to hold the boundary, but we also get to allow our children to have feelings about that boundary. This is the important thing because basically we’re all used to being like, I have boundaries. Here are my boundaries. And then the other person’s upset and we’re like, no worries if not, right. We change, but you make it very clear that our kids should not dictate our boundaries, but then we should not dictate their feelings!
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yes. That’s exactly right.
Amanda Doyle:
And you use, “embody your authority,” which I love. Can you say that? Because it felt like so different than I’ve understood it before.
Glennon Doyle:
And when Dr. Beck is talking about this pod squad, think about it in terms of your friends and your partners and people at work and all the people.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Yes. I think that’s a big thing. I think it is what’s resonating with people like, oh, there’s a way to honor my kids’ feelings and embody my authority. Honoring their feelings doesn’t mean I become this permissive anything goes parent, and also embodying my authority doesn’t mean I’m authoritarian parent who doesn’t give a shit about my kids’ feelings.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Again, whenever we’re in two buckets, we’re asking the wrong question. There has to be something else. This goes back to that idea of family jobs. Family jobs, really, they have this nice dance with each other that usually happens. Let’s say, what’s a boundary I might set with a kid? Let’s say, it’s not going on a sleepover or something like that. Or saying no to something they want to do socially, right? A boundary, which again should come from my sense of this is the right decision for my family or this is the safe decision, right? Maybe I’m saying no because I think it’s not safe. Maybe I’m saying no because I know we’re leaving at five in the morning for a trip and it just doesn’t make sense to go pick up my kid at one in the morning somewhere, it doesn’t matter.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
But embodying our authority sounds something like this. And let’s say, it’s the situation where I think it’s not safe. Look, part of my decision, part of my job as your parent is to make decisions that I think are safe and that are good for our family even when you’re not happy about it. This is one of those times. I know this is a huge bummer. I know you’re probably saying this is not a huge bummer, this is worse than that and this feels awful, I both care about all of those feelings. I really, really do, and I’m holding my no.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So you’re allowed to be mad. Actually, if I were in your shoes, I’d be mad too. And I know our relationship is strong enough to get through that together. I know it is. In that way then, I’m letting my kid get mad. Now, let’s say my kid starts hitting me. I’m not going to let them hit me just because they’re mad. If they’re like, well, start cursing at me and say, look, I am going to step in the other room. I know there’s so many ways you could tell me how mad you are at me and that is not one I’m going to tolerate over and over so when you’re ready to tell me in a different way, I will be here to talk to you. Again, there’s a difference between feelings and behaviors, but embodying our authority is something I think isn’t talked about enough in any parenting approach where we’re also validating feelings because it’s the other part that makes it safe.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Because what’s really terrifying for a kid, I think, beyond not feeling real and not feeling like their feelings are being noticed, is the opposite. It’s when, let’s say my five year old is like, my parent just said no more TV and then I had a tantrum and then they let me watch another one. That’s weird. Well, that feeling felt really overwhelming to me. My frustration was really overwhelming to me. That’s why it exploded out of my body. But wow, that feeling really is as bad and poisonous as I experienced it. Because look, it just scared my parent. It just led them to change their decisions. Wow, that’s really scary.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Holding a boundary and embodying your authority as a decision maker is actually a key part of helping kids learn to manage and feel safe with their feelings.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ve never heard it described that way. So when you change your mind after because your kid freaked out, what you’re saying to that kid is that was so out of bounds that I can’t even be the boss anymore.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
I think what you’re saying is, I’m as scared of that feeling in you as you are. And that’s not to say we can’t change decisions. And of course sometimes I see my kid have a meltdown, I can’t deal with this, I’m on another show. These are general patterns. It’s not like, every day. Or maybe I change my mind because I say, you know what? Hold on a second. First, let’s take some deep breaths. Let’s calm down. I’d probably put a little space around that. You know what? I actually do usually let you watch that many shows. I don’t know why I said something different. I’m changing from a place of reconsidering my decision versus changing from a place of being scared of my kids’ emotions. Our kids know the difference.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
I always think… Here’s a good one, If you were the pilot of a plane, to me this is the best metaphor, and it was really turbulent and everybody was screaming in the background. I feel like there’s three pilots that could come on. One pilot is, stop screaming, it’s no big deal, nothing’s going on, you’re making a big deal out of nothing. If that’s my pilot, I’d be like, are you not aware of how turbulent it is? I don’t feel great, number one, that you’re yelling as a pilot, not so sturdy. But number two, it actually is turbulent and you’re not recognizing that, doesn’t feel good.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
The number two pilot is, I’m going to open the pilot door and if anybody wants to fly this plane and knows what to do, just come because I’m not feeling so sure. Any one of us would be like, it’s not the turbulence that’s scaring me, it’s this pilot that’s scaring me. That’s really a lot of absorption and lack of boundaries.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
The third pilot would be like, hey, you guys are screaming back there. It is really, really turbulent, yes it is, I believe you that it feels as bad and I know what I’m doing. I’ve done this before. We’re still landing in Los Angeles at the same time. I’m going to go off the loud speaker so I can do my thing. If screaming continues to be your thing, do it. And I’ll see you when you’re on the ground.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
Like boom, I want that pilot every time. Our kids want that pilot. Embodying your authority while also validating their experience is what makes that pilot feel so sturdy and safe.
Amanda Doyle:
Sturdy and safe. Amen.
Glennon Doyle:
Sturdy and safe. And it works with partners, works with everybody, works with your work people. Your job is to dictate your boundaries but not their feelings about your boundaries.
Glennon Doyle:
All right, so we’re going to wrap now, but we have a whole nother episode coming with Dr. Becky next. So everyone who’s panicking, don’t worry.
Amanda Doyle:
And we’re going to talk more about that consequences and punishment because that Dr. Becky just hit on is very fascinating.
Glennon Doyle:
And Dr. Becky, what’s one thing that’s a very little thing that they can do not to parent their kids better, all right? I don’t know how much I can overemphasize. That’s not what we’re doing here. I know that’s what you’re doing, Dr. Becky, but I care about the pod squaders, not their kids, their little hearts. Okay? I care about you. And so what can the grown up people listening to this pod squad do? It’s a little thing that will help them reparent themselves.
Dr. Becky Kennedy:
So I think right now, if you think about something that you hold with a lot of shame, right? It’s something you did today, it’s something you did years ago, it’s some moment or behavior you remember and you’re like, it just feels that awful shame feeling. Then, form this fill-in-the-blank sentence with it. I’m a good person who. So mine might be, I’m a good person who yelled at my kids this morning. That formula I find is the simplest way to remind your body that who I am as a person inside is separate from this thing or this decision or this behavior that I really don’t feel proud of.
Glennon Doyle:
So it’s our behavior, not our identity. Beautiful. Pod squad, you are a good person who probably did a bunch of shitty things. We love you more for it, not less.
Amanda Doyle:
We believe you.
Everyone:
We believe you.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh. We believe you.
Glennon Doyle:
We will be back here with Dr. Becky next time. We love you. Bye.
Abby Wambach:
See you soon.