WHY ARE THERE NO PICTURES OF US?!?
August 25, 2022
Abby Wambach:
Hello.
Glennon Doyle:
Hello, we can do hard things family. Can you stop talking when I’m talking?
Abby Wambach:
Sometimes it’s just so fun to have fun.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. I actually disagree. I do not think it’s fun to have fun.
Amanda Doyle:
Speaking of fun, I really like when it’s the three of us. I mean, I like when people come over to our house and visit, but I also like when it’s just us.
Abby Wambach:
Me too.
Glennon Doyle:
Me too. It feels like we have to be on our best behavior when people are here, we’re having guests. How’s everybody doing? Sissy, you are on family vacation. How is your vacation going?
Amanda Doyle:
Well, I mean, I wasn’t thinking of it as a vacation. We are existing in a different location than our normal existence, but I do have a development in this week because I’m doing the thing where I’m trying to make up for all the things I didn’t do in the school year. My kids are supposed to read 30 minutes a night every night in the school year, which we did a total of zero times during the school year.
Glennon Doyle:
Nobody read at all, anything?
Amanda Doyle:
Well, I mean, they read before they go to bed for five minutes before they pass out or we read to them or whatever, but there’s not…
Glennon Doyle:
They read their cereal boxes in the morning.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
They read the closed captions on the television.
Amanda Doyle:
Every car signs when we drive, but SSR, silence sustained reading, we do not do a lot of that. So I decided that this summer we’re going to make up for the whole year and if we just crammed it into the summer, then we would basically be even Steven with the school system.
Abby Wambach:
How’s that going?
Amanda Doyle:
It’s going very poorly, Abby. Thanks for asking, but I realized, I’m like, “Why the hell don’t these kids like to read? What’s wrong with them? Reading is important and good. Who raised these kids?” Then I read this situation, which is that one of the most effective predictors of whether kids become readers are whether that parents are readers, which is not cool because I feel like can’t they just have one job on their own? I realize that all of the books that I consume are, A, for this podcast.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
People who have been on the podcast and, B, I do it all over audio.
Glennon Doyle:
Hold on a second. Hold on a second. Why do you do that? Why do you only do audio books?
Amanda Doyle:
So that I can do other things.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. I knew it. Do you know that there’s no such thing as doing other things? There’s no such thing as multitasking.
Amanda Doyle:
Want to bet?
Glennon Doyle:
You’re task switching. You’re not multitasking because nobody can do two things at once. So if your attention is at one thing, it is determinate it’s not at the other thing.
Abby Wambach:
I believe in Sister.
Amanda Doyle:
You mean I cannot put a shirt on a hanger while I listen to Cole Arthur Riley? You have underestimated my brain power.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. That actually might be the difference between us.
Abby Wambach:
If there’s anybody who can prove science wrong, it is Sister.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, I just don’t believe that. Yes, can I read a book? Can I edit a document while I’m listening? I do, but not effectively, but I can fold some shit and put some dishes in the dishwasher and saute some onions while I’m listening to a book.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Well, that’s freaking amazing to me. I mean, just to tell you, I actually think this is an interesting thing. I do not believe that I can do those things.
Abby Wambach:
You can’t?
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, you can’t saute an onion, even if you were just sauteing it.
Glennon Doyle:
Even if I was only one tasking, right. If I was uni-tasking, I still couldn’t do that. All right. Go ahead. So you’re figuring out all you do is multi-task. You listen to the audio books, so your kids can’t read.
Amanda Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
So your kids can’t read.
Glennon Doyle:
So they never read.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes and yes. Exactly. No one’s pointing fingers at John, I see. Okay, so I don’t sit down with a book. So I decided, all right, fine. So we’ve been doing this thing and I should be clear that when I say, “I swear to God, we’re definitely doing this. I mean it this time. We’re doing it every single day without failure,” we’re effectively doing it three times a week. That’s fine. We’re doing it three times a week, which is great. With Alice, it’s actually been so much fun because we just sit in the hammock and read the book for 30 minutes and it’s been a really lovely thing. I finished my first book that I’ve read in 10 years just for funsies.
Abby Wambach:
You weren’t reading this book for this podcast per se?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes, exactly. Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
I also just want to pour one out for all the people trying to get the other people to read because here’s how it goes with Alice. Alice, it’s time to read. Okay. Here’s how it goes with Bobby. It takes one hour and 45 minutes to get our 30 minutes of reading in because it’s 20 minutes every day of no, I’m not going to do it. Then 20 minutes of pretending like we’re reading when we’re not reading and then 20 minutes, which we all just collectively pretend is 30 minutes so we don’t have to fight it anymore, of actual reading. It’s a disaster.
Abby Wambach:
I get that though. Reading is really hard for me too.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s been a journey for you.
Abby Wambach:
It’s really hard. I would be interested if he could walk and read. Just give him a little box to walk in.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, maybe you should.
Abby Wambach:
Because for me, it’s like being still.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
I’m so uncomfortable.
Amanda Doyle:
Another thing that’s hard about reading is there’s no casual enjoyment of anything for me. I am either not reading anything or I am reading compulsively like this book is going to disintegrate in 24 hours if I don’t read it compulsively through the night to two o’clock in the morning. So nothing feels just relaxing because then I just have to keep going.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you feel like since our culture puts such an emphasis on reading, do you feel worried and scared?
Abby Wambach:
Do they?
Glennon Doyle:
To parents who have kids who don’t read, do you feel scared about it, guilty or something?
Amanda Doyle:
No, I don’t think. That is not the area that my kids struggle most in, but I think parents who have kids who struggle in reading, I’m sure it’s a very big deal. We have many other struggles, but they’re actually fine readers. It’s more just like I feel like, god, you have 24 hours in a day. Can we not just have 20 minutes where you do the damn thing that I ask you to do?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
It just makes me feel so… I feel like super mom. They read for 20 minutes. I’m like, “God damn, I am amazing.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That’s awesome. It’s just so interesting because I have the polar opposite issue, which is I read so much that I spend a lot of time feeling guilty that I’m not paying attention to anyone because I use reading as an excuse not to interact with human beings. I remember we were at the soccer game last weekend and I brought my book because I’m reading this book that’s so good. There’s a half hour where the parents are all just milling and talking to each other before the game, small talk, you know? I said to Abby, “Is it rude if I just pull out my book and read with everyone just standing around me?” Is that rude? What are the social norms about reading? If you’re in a social situation and you pull out a book, is that rude?
Abby Wambach:
It depends if you want to be social or not.
Glennon Doyle:
But I don’t think that’s true because I never want to be social.
Abby Wambach:
Then you can read. Who gives a shit?
Amanda Doyle:
I think you would just put your chair to the side. For example, if you were all within elbow’s distance of each other, all standing around.
Glennon Doyle:
Which we were. We were.
Amanda Doyle:
In a circle and then you reached into your purse, held up your book and started reading it, that would be seen as the equivalent of flipping someone off because it’s like I’m here, but I’m trying to pretend like I’m not here.
Abby Wambach:
Then you just…
Amanda Doyle:
But if you were like, “Hey, y’all so good to see you. Oh my gosh. Yay,” and then pulled your chair away and sat down with your book, it becomes clear of she has greeted. She wishes to be over there.
Abby Wambach:
That’s what she does. You did that. We were in a circle. You didn’t pull the book out and then the next game we were all in a line and nobody was looking at each other. So that’s when you pulled the book out.
Glennon Doyle:
Is it rude to read the book during the game?
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
No.
Abby Wambach:
Yes, it is.
Amanda Doyle:
But when your kid is playing?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, you got to watch.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh my god. We have to pretend like we’re watch-
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so here’s another tip for audio book listeners.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s when you listen to audiobook. Then.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Because then they’ll never know.
Glennon Doyle:
You put your things in your ears and then you just make your face go, oh, wow, yay. Good hustle.
Abby Wambach:
Speaking from a person who’s been on the field, half of the time I was only doing it just to make sure that my parents were watching.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
But that’s a problem if they’re doing it for you, they should stop doing it, because you’re doing it for them and they’re doing it for your and everyone should just give up the hustle.
Abby Wambach:
I understand. That’s part of, maybe my personality flaw is I need attention, but I loved it when I did something good and I looked over and my parents were paying attention. I loved that and so I always try to stay as present as I can. When Amma now, she’s the only one that’s playing soccer, when she looks over to the sidelines and we make eye contact after she’s done something, there is nothing that makes me happier. It doesn’t mean you have to be present 100% of that game.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, that is fascinating because you’re talking about presence and presence being love. We’re going to listen to a pod squadder question right now that I have heard one million times in my life from people and I think it’s fascinating.
Abby Wambach:
Cool.
Glennon Doyle:
Do it.
Amanda Doyle:
This is Megan.
Megan:
This is Megan and I just am calling with a concern that I cannot get anybody to take pictures of me. I do not have more than four pictures of me taken since 2002 and I have told my husband that he has more than 50 pictures on my phone of him in the last three months. So we go through and they’re all delightful, him with the kids and with the baby. It’s all so cute. Do you know how many pictures of our family my husband has on his phone? Zero. Zero. So this means when I die, in my funeral montage, there are going to be the same four pictures rotating since 2002 because no one’s taken a picture of me and I do not want to ask him because I don’t want that posed picture taken of me. I want something natural and I want something where he just sees it and takes the picture. Where do I go from here? I hate being my family’s photographer.
Amanda Doyle:
Thank you, Megan. Thank you, Megan, for speaking for millions of people.
Glennon Doyle:
This is a deep one. This is a deep one.
Amanda Doyle:
This is a deep one.
Abby Wambach:
I have a lot of upset ness right now.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I’m going to say a lot of things. Let’s just talk about this, okay? The first thing that this question makes me think of is one of the things that matters the most to me in our relationship. When I know that we are actually in love with each other is when I am experiencing something in a moment, whether it’s on a walk or at the beach or something with the kids or something that feels like magic to me, like I feel joy in my heart or I feel beautiful or I feel out of my comfort zone or I feel amazed at something the kids have done.
Glennon Doyle:
I can look over and know that you, Abby, are either taking a picture of it, honestly, or just noticing it as deeply as I am noticing it. You’re in it with me. That is what in love means to me, a place that you are together. If you are only feeling the beauty of you and the power of you and the joy of life alone, because every time you look up that person’s not with you, then it’s not just about the camera. It’s about being seen or noticed or experiencing life together at all.
Amanda Doyle:
It is about being seen. I mean, that’s beautiful that you do have that. I would be willing to put cold, hard cash on the fact that at least the majority, if not the overwhelming majority of women who are married to men are in Megan’s position of not having the photos taken. I think it is about being seen. I think it’s about seeing all those tiny moments that could be, to the eye that doesn’t see it, just dismissed as kind of inconsequential, insignificant moments, but when they are not seen, when they are not noted as significant enough to document, it can feel like your love is not being witnessed.
Amanda Doyle:
All of that long suffering minutia of what we do day after day of showing up, that really is what love is made of, is also unseen and uncelebrated. If love is paying attention, then it is hard to feel loved when there is no attention paid to those moments. It’s exactly what you said. In those slices of joy that happened where you’re like, “Oh my gosh, this is the magic. This is the moment. This is the Kairos moment,” if you’re experiencing that as significant alone, then it is lonely.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
I’m just sitting here, just upset, not because I do it differently, but because it’s such a thing that everybody is capable of doing, right? I know marriage is…
Amanda Doyle:
Low hanging fruit here, people.
Abby Wambach:
All sorts of problems, whether it’s you have sex issues or communication issues, or you’ve got family stuff going on. This is something that requires very little effort. I think why it offends me so much is that it’s a doable thing. Also, to me, it is related to respect and respecting somebody else’s humanity. The reason why this specific story is so upsetting to me is because, thinking about a person’s funeral and having so few photographs for this woman to be able to showcase as her legacy, as a person in this family, it is un-fucking-forgivable to me that people would choose not to notice. Take a couple a year. This is not something… I’m over doer. I see a moment. I’m going to take a picture. I’m just so sorry for Megan and also, I’m really sorry for those men who have chosen to completely tap out and not do one of the most easy things that you could possibly do in terms of connecting with a family. That’s just being present and taking a picture.
Glennon Doyle:
But it’s deeper. It’s not just about the picture at all.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Because actually it’s easy for you because you’re paying attention anyway and you’re riding the wave of the day and watching me and being like, “Oh, that’s a little quirky thing that I love so much about her. She’s about to do that thing.” You’re going to take a picture or, “Oh, she is working on this thing with Amma and so now they’re doing it together. So this is going to be important to her.” It’s because we have been talking deeply about things and you know what’s important to me and I know what’s important to you. So when you catch those moments, it’s easy for you because we are already connected and you’ve already chosen love as a deep paying attention.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s not about the picture because I can just see dudes being like, “Well, I’m not taking a picture because I’m in the moment. I don’t always take a picture. I’m in the moment.” You’re like, “Okay, what, are you fucking Deepak Chopra? No you’re not. You’re not.” No partner who has another partner who’s deeply paying attention is in pain and complaining about this thing. It’s about you don’t see me. You don’t notice me. You don’t value me. We’re not doing life together and everything that I contribute to this family or to this partnership or to this world is not even being witnessed by the one person who’s supposed to be witnessing it. So am I a ghost? Do I even exist here? Do I matter?
Abby Wambach:
Lazy love.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s lazy.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, I call complete bullshit, like you said, about being in the moment, because it’s not like someone is looking in gazing into your eyes while you’re pushing the kid on the swing, just thinking, god damn, I have to savor this. I would reach for my phone, but I’m just glorifying in the beauty of this moment. That happens, I’m sure a time that has happened, but I’m willing to throw the benefit of the doubt in the light most favorable to these people and say maybe it’s not about not loving. Maybe it’s not recognizing that these are monumental moments, just all of these little joy moments, that you’re not recognizing those as worthy of documentation.
Amanda Doyle:
It makes me think, I’m not one of those people who has the sign in their kitchen that says kitchen and the sign in their laundry that says laundry. Those are really cute and I love them, but I do have two. One is that Whitman quote that says, “We were together. I forget the rest.” Then another one says “These are the good old days.” Those, for me, are reminders all the time that when life is long, it will be the togetherness. It will be those little moments right now that we think are mundane that are actually the most precious and it is heartbreaking. That’s why it’s so sad that we will be invisible in those moments. Those moments that we work so tirelessly to create, to make the magic of our lives, to make their lives infused with little speckles of magic where we can, we have generated those, but we will be invisible in those.
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, P!nk. Do you remember when P!nk posted? It was January a few years ago. She posted a picture on Instagram of her husband, Carey, and their son, Jameson. The caption was, “I hope one of Carey’s resolutions is to photograph his wife more, just so people know I exist. Carry on.” P!nk is feeling invisible, like she doesn’t exist and she’s a fucking megastar, right? It isn’t like, oh, have a little confidence. It’s like I wish to exist in these moments too. I wish for you to see me existing in these moments, because if you had eyes to see, it would be automatic that you would take a picture of me. It’s not that you’re not taking the picture. It’s that you don’t have eyes to see.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. That’s it. Why is it so often the women who are not being seen, who are taking the pictures and the men who are not? Is that something that’s happens to them as a little kid? I think about the Natalie Portman episode where she’s over practicing thinking outside of a little boy’s own experience, noticing others, noticing the beauty of others’ empathy, getting outside of yourself. Maybe that’s part of this.
Amanda Doyle:
It is a symptom of the same problem. I think that traditionally, or at least generally speaking, women are the ones responsible for creating magic in a life, for making the birthday party sweet, for making sure they’re special. You’re holding the fucking sign on the first day of school with the date and the whatever and what you want to be when you grow up. You’re doing all of the things, right? It is precisely because of that responsibility to make the magic that we are forward thinking on that. We are thinking in five years, in 10 years, at my kids’ rehearsal dinner, it will be magic to have this magic moment. Right? So we’re collecting it because we are manufacturers and collectors of magic for our children. I don’t think that men see it because I don’t think they have that within their purview of responsibility.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s true.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right. Wake up.
Glennon Doyle:
I think romantically, if you look on Instagram, right, pictures of me and Abby. When I take a picture of Abby and it’s just this thing where she’s laughing on the deck or something, simple picture. She’s with the kids. She’s laughing on the deck. The reason why people are moved by that picture is not, and I know this because it says in the comments, is not just Abby looks so great in that picture or look at Abby, she’s laughing. It’s like that’s how you see her. In that moment, when you look at a picture, you’re not just seeing the object of the picture. What you’re seeing is somebody who saw something, who thought that thing is so beautiful. I need to take a picture.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re seeing it through the lens of the love of the taker.
Glennon Doyle:
Of the love of the taker. So what people, this woman and what women are saying to their romantic partners is if you show me a picture of me, you are showing me how you love me. You are showing me. I saw this moment and it took my breath away. It’s not just about show me a picture of me. People are saying, “Show me you love me. Show me you had a moment where you thought…”
Amanda Doyle:
You’re reflecting me back to me. You are seeing the devotion and the love and the magic that I create and you are reflecting it back to me in the form of my best self and in the context of the magic that I work so hard to create. When you don’t think that is worth documenting, you’re telling me that you don’t value it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
I don’t think, y’all, if P!nk is having this problem, P!nk could have, and probably does have, three professional photographers follow her around and document whenever she wants. So it’s not about that.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
She’s not worried about that picture. She’s worried about Carey taking the picture. There’s more pictures of P!nk than anyone could possibly imagine. That’s not the point. The point is she wants to know she exists.
Glennon Doyle:
Through his eyes.
Amanda Doyle:
I really have come to the conclusion that we can be like Megan, upset about this and just very sad about it for forever or we can try to solve it. We just spoke to Nedra the other day all about boundaries and stuff. We were talking about passive aggressiveness, but we didn’t talk about it in depth. Her definition of that is I will act out how I feel, but I will deny how I feel. It’s a way we resist actively setting boundaries and we hope folks will see our behaviors and self correct. So we’re annoyed and expecting them to self-correct by being annoyed and self-correction is not going to work here. I think we have to say, “Take a picture of me right now. I want you to take a picture of this. I’m about to go and play in the water. I’d like you to take 10 pictures of me so I can make sure I have a good one.” There’s a whole category of being seen, the love and the whatever, but in the meantime, we need to get some pictures of us taken with our kids.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
So we need to ask for it. We need to ask strangers to take pictures of us. Anytime I go anywhere I ask. If I’m walking down the street and I see a woman and her kids, I say, “May I take a picture of you? Do you have a phone? Do you want a picture of this?” All the time.
Abby Wambach:
That’s sweet.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my god, that’s so good.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s something that we can do for each other. Half the time they say, “Oh my god. Yes, thank you so much.” Then they say, “Actually, can I take a picture of you and your kids?” I’m like, “Yes, please.” I think we need to just start doing it ourselves and then maybe as we ask and we ask and we ask, they’ll start to do it more, but I think we need to parallel track this because I don’t think waiting for self correction is going to yield us what we need.
Abby Wambach:
I think it’s smart and you both have brought up really good, very empathetic and compassionate points, but my soul feels offended and have your husbands listen to this podcast.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Hear me say get your shit together. Be the photographer of your family’s existence of a beautiful moment. You can do that. Don’t be an asshole. Just do it. I have such little patience for this. Really, it feels like somebody is stepping on my field of honor.
Glennon Doyle:
Dudes, you can do easy things. There’s also, I just want to speak to just my woo woo self to the dudes if they’re listening. I’m sad for the women who are not getting the pictures, but I feel on some level sadder for men than for women, because I feel like, oh, you just don’t get life. Women are like, “Why don’t you see this magical moment? It’s so frustrating for me that you don’t see this magical moment,” but men actually aren’t seeing the magical moments.
Amanda Doyle:
I think there’s two things. I think that there is a group of them that don’t see it at all. I think there’s a group of them that are so unaccustomed to having any sense of responsibility or ownership or expectation around their role to document, affirm.
Glennon Doyle:
Nurture.
Amanda Doyle:
Celebrate these moments that it does not occur to them, because we have photos. Why do I need to take photos? We have photos. You know why you have photos? Because your fucking wife takes them. That’s why you have photos. So act as if she’s not here.
Glennon Doyle:
So you think that some of it is just truly not wanting to be interrupted.
Amanda Doyle:
I think it’s beyond that.
Glennon Doyle:
By taking a picture.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, I think they’re like, “Oh, she’s taking it.”
Amanda Doyle:
I think it doesn’t occur to them. It hasn’t entered their purview because it’s never been their job.
Glennon Doyle:
So you don’t think it’s an issue of… Sometimes I feel like women are the artists of the world. So artists walk through the world and we have a deeper, more magical experience of the world because we are always looking for what is beautiful and strange and unique and different. A photographer’s job is to walk through their day, looking deeply at things and noticing, paying attention and noticing things so they can grab it for other people to see. So that’s what women do in our families. So my question is, are men the non-artists of their families? Are men just walking around not noticing shit because they don’t feel responsible for grabbing it in the first place? If that’s the case, then I feel sad for them because they’re not experiencing life and love and gorgeousness of moments because they think it’s not their job.
Amanda Doyle:
I think it’s probably both. I think depending on the human male, it could be one or the other or it could be a blend of both, because another way to look at this is the cherishing versus the taking for granted. If you are someone who shows up to your family and expects sweet, magical moments so much that they have become mundane to you and therefore you don’t feel the need to capture it, then maybe you’re not seeing it and taking for granted that it’s, A, happening and, B, that at the end of the day, your wife’s going to have accumulated enough photographs because she’s so annoying and she’s always taking photographs and she’s always making you stand there, that you’re taking for granted that those photos that your family needs will exist.
Abby Wambach:
It’s good enough.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s just that, you’re right, they will exist, and she’ll be in three of them.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
Because she’s taken a selfie or some nice human on vacation has walked by while she was struggling to take a selfie with her in it, without her face being four times the size of everyone else’s face and has agreed to take the picture.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. At her funeral, the message of everything will be she loved well. She was not loved well. That’s what it’ll look like and that might may or may not be true. If you are a partner whose partner has led you to this conversation and you’re listening, one possibility is to, what I tell writers is as you’re going through your day, just keep a goal of noticing one thing, one cool moment to write about. If you are someone who has been lulled into not noticing the magical things about your partner for one reason or another, and you actually are listening to this conversation and you have decided to be open and to hear what we’re saying as a call for love and attention that it is, consider what’s one moment a day? I’m going to notice one thing a day that feels special and I’m going to take a picture of it. One thing a day.
Abby Wambach:
I also think that assholery needs to be met with assholery every once in a while. So fucking just do better. Seriously. You guys, it’s so sweet, but I actually that if this is happening and you’ve brought your husband to this podcast, just do better. Do it. Do better. Stop being an asshole. Do better. I’m over it.
Amanda Doyle:
While we potentially have the husbands here, should we hear from Tony?
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s do it, Tony.
Abby Wambach:
Let’s do it.
Tony:
Good morning. My name is Tony. My wife and I, we really enjoy the show. My question is for Sister. I’m a big fan of the five love languages, but listening to the podcast and something that Sister said really made me reevaluate it. It’s talking about the ticker. As a man, I grew up reading and understanding that the greatest act of service I could do for my spouse was to vacuum the rug and clean the bathroom, which I now know is just complete horseshit. I’m reading a book right now and a line in the book says, “My wife’s love language is acts of service. One of the things I do for her regularly as an act of love is vacuuming the floor.” This is what I was taught and this is so offensive now because of the three of you. Thank you for that. I now know that the greatest act of service is not doing things on the ticker list. It’s actually seeing the ticker list.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Tony:
Vacuuming the floor and cleaning the bathroom, those aren’t acts of love. Those are being an adult, right? It’s my house too.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, Tony.
Tony:
So my question is, now that I see the ticker and if I do all the things on the ticker, what is a real act of service that I can do for my spouse? Because I don’t want to live in a world where the greatest act of service I can do for the woman that I love is simply be an adult. There has to be something more and deeper than that.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Tony:
So I thank you so much for the show. I appreciate all three of you. Thank you so much.
Abby Wambach:
All that I just said about assholery does not apply to Tony.
Amanda Doyle:
This question made me cry.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, it did?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. Tony, thank you. There’s something about hearing the words from you, Tony, that was healing to me and it was beautiful. So three cheers for Tony the fucking tiger. Okay? Loved you.
Glennon Doyle:
He’s great. Great.
Amanda Doyle:
So yes, y’all. If you came for the photo, stay for the acts of service. It does not take Beyonce level genius to see that the floor needs to be vacuumed. As Tony identified for us, that’s not love. It’s just the manual labor inherent in the privilege of enjoying habitation. Okay?
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Correct.
Abby Wambach:
Homeownership.
Amanda Doyle:
Good job, Tony, taking that off the list and you know what? I would be really interested. Just let’s play with this for a minute before we actually answer Tony’s questions about what is an act of service, but it’s always fascinating to me that the same folks who uphold this kind of fiction of gendered work or this hierarchical binary of roles are the exact same folks who completely demean men as too stupid or too weak to step into a primary role in their own families by seeing needs and responding to them. So it’s intellectually dishonest. The same folks who consider a man the head of the household also proclaim that his headship is incapable of being a leader of the family in these ways.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
This kind of cultural endorsement of learned helplessness, like he doesn’t know how to do a diaper. He doesn’t know. It’s infantilization of men within their family units and it’s a total fucking lie. It’s just a great disservice, not only to women, but also to men. So for me, Tony, it’s exactly as you said. Love is not doing the bare minimum of your own individual responsibilities of adulting. It’s not like checking off the honey do list. Those are not favors to your partner. Those are favors to yourself that allow you to live not in filth.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
So think of it like there’s a bucket of stuff, like doing those things, including taking a shower that is for you, by you, and a basic requirement of life, of adulting. Okay. That’s one bucket of things. That’s just yours. We’re not labeling that love. To me, when I say that, like your wife, Tony, my love language is acts of service, what I mean is that love is carrying one another’s burdens. You have to see it to carry it. So it is loving your partner and your family enough and respecting yourself enough to know that you are an invaluable part of your family, that you are there to know and sense and anticipate and get in front of your family’s needs.
Amanda Doyle:
So, Tony, to answer your question, for me, what acts of service love looks like it is seeing your kid is struggling in an area and researching and analyzing what kind of help and resources we could pursue to support them, as opposed to what is not an act of love, is waiting until your partner sees it, analyzes it, researches it, and sets up the appointments, and then thinking you’re a superhero by agreeing to drive them. Driving, first adulting bucket, not love bucket. Seeing, anticipating, researching, solving, is love bucket. Another example, if something in your marriage, Tony, is not working for one reason or another, you are bringing that to the forefront. You are finding out how and when to get the help that you need to have the kind of relationship that you, Tony, want, not the kind of relationship that your wife is demanding. That goes in the love bucket. Okay? What is not in the love bucket is congratulating yourself for agreeing to a proposed strategy that your partner brings to you after analyzing the problem to give yourself a better marriage. Okay? That’s adulting bucket.
Amanda Doyle:
I just love Tony for this and if Tony sounds like an anomaly to you, if he sounds so monumentally different than what you’re used to, we need to understand that women have gotten used to expecting and even celebrating from their partners someone who will see them struggling to carry their overwhelming burden and will take a piece from that burden to slightly lessen the weight. What I want all of us as partners to begin to expect, to share the burden of truly seeing the pieces shattered on the ground, sharing equally seeing the pieces scattered, sharing equally picking them up, sharing equally organizing them, sharing equally hoisting them on our own backs so that each partner carries equal responsibility and equal weight. That, to me, is love.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Adulting bucket and love bucket is really good.
Glennon Doyle:
You don’t get to put things in the love bucket that are just adulting bucket. How do we do that? When you actually said that metaphor of all the pieces scattered on the ground, it’s interesting because in order to get to all the pieces scattered on the ground, women are going to have to drop all the pieces. One of the problems is that the men don’t ever see all the pieces scattered on the ground because…
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like the fucking pictures. They don’t have a picture problem.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
They have all the pictures they want. No picture problem.
Glennon Doyle:
But I’m just saying, is there a responsibility here? Is this martyrdom mountain on some level, because is it like we are carrying the heavy backpack? We are taking all the pictures. Why the fuck do I have this backpack? If that were going to work, begging people, this backpack is too heavy. It’s too heavy. Please take some things from the backpack. If that were going to work, it would’ve worked, right? So is there an element of, and of course this is easier said than done, but is there an element of fuck it and letting everything scatter on the ground? Is that what it takes for entitled people to see what life really takes?
Abby Wambach:
I also think that the scatteredness of that stuff, of women letting go and letting it all go, part of that is going to be really hard because so much of what we do is a part of how we get our worthiness. So I think that it’s hard for probably a lot of women to let go of some of the responsibilities and let them actually shatter on the floor.
Glennon Doyle:
So is it redefining for women what a good mother is or what a good wife is, because at the end of the day, we must really believe that a good wife would keep doing all of this shit or we would stop doing it.
Amanda Doyle:
I think it’s more complicated than that because I don’t care if my house is a mess, but there’s certain levels of it that I suppose we could let scatter, but who suffers for that? My kids would by not getting the services they need in school, by not getting placed in the classroom that’s best going to serve them, by not having the therapist appointments they need. Who feels the shattering? In many cases, I think it would shatter silently because we are doing it for the collective. I think there are certain things that is a very apt observation, G, that if there is no problem, men aren’t going to step up to solve it.
Amanda Doyle:
But I think that a lot of people are reticent to drop it because they’re doing it for love and protection of, a lot of times, their kids, their own mental health, their own doing their best. I mean, I think maybe things that are truly done from love… Tony’s question was not what do need to do. Tony’s was how can I love my wife? I think that it’s going to take conversations that you may love me. I don’t feel loved by you and this is how I can feel your love. So if you indeed do love me and you intend to make me feel loved, I’m here to report back to you that I would love to receive that love, because I, in fact, love you. Here is the way that you can calibrate to make sure that the love that you’re pouring out comes to me.
Glennon Doyle:
Is felt by me.
Amanda Doyle:
Then people who want to love their partners will and people who are, in fact, not loved by their partners will have to decide whether they require that kind of love in their lives or not, but we should give up the intellectually dishonest, horseshit argument that men cannot see those things and are incapable of doing them.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. First of all, I don’t think it’s just that men, we think they can be leaders of the family, but they can’t do these things, these sets of things. I think it’s because we, as a culture, believe that those sets of things are not worthy of men.
Abby Wambach:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
That women are below men and women should do those things.
Abby Wambach:
They’re feminine.
Amanda Doyle:
Of course, of course, but it’s just… Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
They just use the words he can’t do that, but what they mean is he’s too good for that and I’m not.
Amanda Doyle:
Right, but what I’m just saying is that we have arbitrarily decided that certain things are leadership roles and certain things that aren’t. I would suggest that the things that women do all day long consistently to make their households run that are invisible, are in fact the true leadership of the family.
Glennon Doyle:
Leadership.
Abby Wambach:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
But we have categorized that as not leadership so as to absolve men from the role of doing them.
Glennon Doyle:
Right, and to be able to still call them leaders.
Abby Wambach:
Sister, my god, that was incredible. Everything that you just said.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It’s probably ending with what she said, is the terror of this conversation is the aftermath, is like what if I say all these things? What if we get all this out and it doesn’t matter? What if it doesn’t matter?
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, at least then you can look yourself in the mirror. At least then you can know that you’re not hiding behind this farce that’s like, oh my god, my husband can never do that.
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, those conversations are so fucking boring. It’s just all of us collectively deciding that we are not going to address the elephant in the room by making a fucking joke out of it because that’s a joke, the fact that your husband can’t do this.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a joke that he is playing on you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. That’s exactly right and you’re laughing about it. Okay. Here’s the deal. Heavy, man.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, talk about good boundary setting here.
Glennon Doyle:
Also, I just want this to not be the end of this conversation. I just want this to be the beginning of this conversation. I desperately want to hear from the pod squad about the picture thing. Did that hit? How does it hit for you?
Abby Wambach:
And what Tony said.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
Sending your options. What would make you feel loved? Deepening that love.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. What would make you feel loved? What is love to you with your romantic partner and what is not happening to make you feel loved and what is happening? Talk to us. Let’s fix this.
Amanda Doyle:
I just want to say before we end, this is the opposite of a male bashing situation. This is a belief in men. This is a faith in men. We know you are missing it. You want, like Tony, to love your person. You are just as confused as we are as to why things aren’t working, because you love so deeply. I believe you. I believe you love your partners. Just like they love you and they are confused about why isn’t working and you are too. We’re just saying that confusion lies in the disconnect between the way you are showing your love and the way your partner’s not receiving it because you’re not seeing her and what she carries. So it is a belief that you can, and Tony, hats off to you and to the rest of you, you can do it. You really can. It’s not saying you’re incapable and it’s not trying to paint you with a broad brush. It’s trying to say you know your families just as well as your partners. So open your eyes to it and pick up a bag and start filling it up.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
The why. There’s a why and the why is because truly, why would you go through all of that? Why would you actually deeply try to love? Because I just swear to you, it’s just all that matters. You’re missing the one thing. The one thing does require work. It does require vulnerability. It does require admitting you don’t know what the fuck you’re doing and that maybe you fucked up in the past. It does require super effort. Love is effort, but I guess what I mean at the soul of me is, god, I’d rather be an angry woman than a missing everything man. Give me this existence over the one where I don’t even see it all and I miss it all. So what I’m saying is I feel sorry for the men who are missing it all. I feel like they should know that there is more, that real connection is possible and it’s the only thing that matters and it’s worth fighting for. We love you.
Amanda Doyle:
Be like Tony. Ask.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Ask. It’s not intuitive. Tony’s been reading, for god’s sakes, about how to do this better and he still has the question. If you are sitting there saying, “Okay, but you’re acting like this is so intuitive. I should just know it.” No, we’re not. Ask your partner. Those are just my answers. Your partner has very different answers.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Ask.
Glennon Doyle:
Ask. If you do have stuff to tell us, which I think you will, call us. 747-200-5307. We love you, pod squad. We will see you back here soon on We Can Do Hard Things. Bye.