How to Say No: Boundaries with Nedra Glover Tawwab
August 23, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. I just want you all Pod Squaders to know that you just missed a simulating conversation between the three of us where I asked everyone to please watch their facial expressions on the pod, because my listening face is, what is it? It’s so weird.
Abby Wambach:
It’s different.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s different. My face, the way it looks when I’m listening hard.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. When you’re in your active listening, you get your squint eye and you have one eye that squints a little bit more than the other, and then your mouth goes down.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. It’s special. It’s because I’m concentrating really hard.
Abby Wambach:
I know.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s because I’m really… By the way, my whole life I thought, “Oh my eye just squints.” But really my eyes are two different sizes.
Amanda Doyle:
Mine are, too.
Abby Wambach:
No way.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. They are. I just thought it happened in pictures because I-
Glennon Doyle:
Same.
Amanda Doyle:
I just thought “That’s so weird how my eyes in pictures look different sizes.” And then-
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And then I realized, “Oh wait, if in every picture they’re different sizes, that just means they’re different sizes.”
Glennon Doyle:
Let me check it in the mirror. Oh, same, same. Well, you know sister, about the person at a signing line. When you take all the pictures with people. And one lady waited the whole nother hour to come back and say, “Do you think we could take another picture? Your eyes look like they’re two different sizes in my picture.”
Abby Wambach:
You’re squinting one eye.
Glennon Doyle:
And I was like, “That’s what I look like.”
Amanda Doyle:
Sorry. Can’t help you.
Glennon Doyle:
So super excited to talk today with an expert about boundaries, and I want to tell you how we found this amazing person.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So I was a while back talking to our dear beloved Luvvie Ajayi Jones and we were just having a conversation about-
Amanda Doyle:
Speaking of fix your face. She’s the one who taught us to fix our face.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. Luvvie I would be doing speaking engagements with her and I’d be on stage. We were speaking with a group and so we would always sit next to each other and get in trouble together. But if somebody was speaking and I didn’t like what they were saying, I just have no poker face. And there was a huge screen behind us, so they would be speaking and then my face would be on the screen with like this huge, “What the fuck?” Face. So Luvvie used to squeeze my leg and say, “Glennon, fix your face. Fix your face.”
Glennon Doyle:
So, anyway, I’m talking to Luvvie and I’m telling her my boundaries predicament. My boundaries predicament is that I lived the first half of my life with no boundaries and I hated myself. So now, I over correct it and I live my life with so many boundaries that I hate everyone else.
Abby Wambach:
Oh.
Glennon Doyle:
So I would like to find balance, boundary balance. So Luvvie suggested Nedra Glover Tawwab. So we are going to have Nedra on the pod today to talk about boundary balance. And also, what are you hoping to talk about today, sissy?
Amanda Doyle:
I am fascinated about the concept of unconditional love because to me, it seems like what that’s saying is that there is love with no boundaries and I don’t have that.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t either.
Amanda Doyle:
So I want to hear the good professor of boundaries talk to me about that.
Glennon Doyle:
Is it real?
Abby Wambach:
That’s so good.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Because I have much more of a leniency when it comes to people. And so I’m more-
Glennon Doyle:
Clearly!
Abby Wambach:
I’m more capable of that unconditional love. And it’s interesting being married to somebody who is more boundaried in that way. I think that is maybe a source of a friction at times. Because I’m more, and I don’t mean to say this, I’m more open, and you have a tendency to be more, what word would you use?
Glennon Doyle:
Closed.
Amanda Doyle:
Closed like Fort Knox?
Glennon Doyle:
Closed like Fort Knox.
Abby Wambach:
So that poses problems. I love that, sister. That’s really good. I’m actually really interested in talking about the concept of boundaries and those who I sometimes notice as being boundaried sometimes can be seen as a-holes.
Glennon Doyle:
Right? Like your wife.
Abby Wambach:
No, I wasn’t saying any names.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
But for me, I very much am other-people-minded. I’m a very big people pleaser and so I don’t want to come off as an a-hole. I want to be kind of known as-
Glennon Doyle:
You want to be a good guy?
Abby Wambach:
I want to be good guy.
Amanda Doyle:
You want to be loved.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
So your question is, can I be very, very loved? And is it possible to have a boundary?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And my question is, can I have all my boundaries, and is it possible to have love?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, that’s good. Okay. Let’s figure it out. Let’s figure it out, y’all.
Glennon Doyle:
Can nice people have boundaries? Can boundaried people be nice?
Amanda Doyle:
So boundaries, everyone talks about this as something that they’re all struggling with. So we’re going to get to people’s questions because we get more questions about this than most anything else. But it is clear that these boundaries are very good for us. People who have and hold healthy boundaries have the keys to the queendom, it seems.
Amanda Doyle:
When you look at the data, folks with healthy boundaries have better sleep, less burnout, longer lasting and healthier relationships, less stress and more joy.
Abby Wambach:
Huh.
Amanda Doyle:
So it really seems like it’s an idea worth sharing.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Isn’t that like Ted Talks or something?
Amanda Doyle:
Okay. All right. We’ll think of else.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a-
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a hard thing we can do. It’s a hard thing worth sharing.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, excellent. Let’s go ask these things of our expert.
Glennon Doyle:
Nedra Glover Tawwab is a licensed therapist and sought after relationship expert. She is the author of the New York Times best seller Set Boundaries, Find Peace and the forthcoming book Drama Free. Hell yes. Available 3/7/2023. That’s amazing. Nedra is also the founder and owner of the group therapy practice, Kaleidoscope Counseling, which helps people create healthy relationships. Her philosophy is that a lack of boundaries and assertiveness underlie most relationship issues and her gift is helping people create healthy relationships with themselves and others. Nedra, welcome.
Nedra Tawwab:
Hi. That was such a warm welcome. I think I want to record it and just take it and use it for everything that I do now.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Perfect. Nedra, this is my sister. This is my wife, Abby. We’re all-
Abby Wambach:
Thank you for joining us.
Nedra Tawwab:
You’re welcome. It’s funny when you mention you’re related to someone, you immediately look for like “Yeah, you have to say nose.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, we do have the same eyes. I loved your book Nedra. And I was fascinated to know that so many of the things that so many of us are struggling with are, in fact, symptomatic of not having healthy boundaries. So can you walk us through some of those things? Because I feel like this is a case of “You might have a boundary problem if” and then everything that my friends are talking about having.
Nedra Tawwab:
Yeah. So as a practicing therapist, this started to show up first as work-life balance issues. So many of my clients come in with being parents, being partners, managing a social life. We don’t know how to say no. We don’t know how to leave work on time or really go on vacation. I am amazed at the amount of people who do not take vacation days. It’s almost like homework, like use your vacation before December. Don’t even wait till December. Use your vacation.
Nedra Tawwab:
It is so normal for us to not think about ourselves and to allow the burnout to come in with work that we’re just like, “This is normal. Burnout is normal. Teach me how to manage it.” It’s teach me boundaries so you don’t experience the burnout.
Nedra Tawwab:
I think another big area where I notice boundary issues is relationships. When we’re mad at our partners, we’re upset about how we parent, we’re upset at the requests coming in from friends or how our parents are hovering. All of these things. It’s difficult conversations that we need to have and those conversations are really around boundaries. “This is happening. This is what I need to feel better.”
Glennon Doyle:
Hmm. So what are the ways that people come to you feeling? They walk into you, you said burnout is one. How does burnout manifest? And what other feelings are they having that they don’t even know are a result of not having boundaries?
Nedra Tawwab:
I think with burnout, what we see a lot of is people wanting to leave their jobs. They’re wanting to go on leave from work. They’re wanting to switch positions because it is the boss. It could not be them causing some of these issues. So they’re looking for a fresh start.
Nedra Tawwab:
I would say the predominant feeling that I’m seeing is anxiety. It is anxiety around how to speak up, when to speak up, curating the perfect sentences to say to other people.
Nedra Tawwab:
Another thing that we see is depression. You feel disempowered to really own and control some of these situations. It’s like, “I can’t do anything about it.”
Glennon Doyle:
Ah.
Nedra Tawwab:
“So I will suffer with these things. I can’t do anything about how my parents treat me or my partner doing this or not doing that. So I feel defeated.”
Glennon Doyle:
So how do you define boundaries? So if somebody’s feeling this way, somebody comes to you, they’re anxious, they’re depressed, they’re burnt out, they’re feeling apathetic or resentful. You as a therapist go, “Okay. There’s boundary issues here.” When you say that, what do you mean? What is a boundary? How do you define it?
Nedra Tawwab:
So I define boundaries as “needs that need to be expressed verbally or through your behavior.” It can be you saying to a person:
Nedra Tawwab:
“I need help with…”
Nedra Tawwab:
“No, I would like more of…”
Nedra Tawwab:
“Please don’t do blank.”
Nedra Tawwab:
Or it could be you stepping back in a relationship when you’ve stated a boundary. It could be you leaving work at the time that you’ve designated as your cutoff time.
Nedra Tawwab:
It’s funny. This is how I know my clients follow me on social media because they start using the word “boundaries.” I don’t use the word boundaries a lot. I call it so many other things.
Nedra Tawwab:
“What are your expectations for this situation?”
Nedra Tawwab:
“I wonder what you’re needing here.”
Nedra Tawwab:
“I wonder what’s causing you to be upset.”
Nedra Tawwab:
I recognize it as a boundary issue, but I don’t like to scare people off over-boundaring the situation like “You have a boundary issue.” It’s more like “You’re having a issue. What do you need to communicate?”
Glennon Doyle:
I love that because also when we say boundary, it makes it sound like we’re building a fortress around ourselves and that feels scary and negative and aggressive. So you think of in terms of, “Oh, you just don’t know how to get what you need yet.” Right? Is that what you’re saying?
Nedra Tawwab:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Like you haven’t figured out how to say or believe that you even are worthy of getting what you need.
Nedra Tawwab:
Absolutely.
Amanda Doyle:
I heard you say that boundaries are what you need to feel safe and supported. And that felt so warm to me. It was interesting because that seems so particular to the person. I’ve kind of been tripped up before by thinking, “Okay, boundaries have to be reasonable.” You can’t just be out here with some crazy boundary that it has to be making sense within the ecosystem. But is it possible that you would have just some idiosyncratic boundary that made you feel safe and supported and that would be justified even if it made no sense to the rest of the world?
Nedra Tawwab:
Sure. Like what if someone said, “Hey, after six o’clock we don’t turn on lights in our house, please don’t turn the light on.” I mean, it might not make sense to you, but it’s their thing. If you’re in their house, can you respect it?
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, I like that example. What are some weird ones like that, that people… I feel like I’m about a weird boundary person.
Abby Wambach:
Confirm.
Glennon Doyle:
Because a highly sensitive person might be somebody who has more… Didn’t you say at some point that boundaries are like the instructions you gave the babysitter watching your newborn?
Nedra Tawwab:
Absolutely.
Glennon Doyle:
But you’re the newborn.
Nedra Tawwab:
Yes, I am the newborn. Oh my gosh. First kid instructions for babysitters? I apologize. But they were so long and thoughtful.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
I looked at Pinterest for ideas.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
It was like a book. It was my first book I think.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Nedra Tawwab:
It was very detailed and it probably came across as weird, especially if you’re giving it to your parent who is watching your child.
Glennon Doyle:
I used to do that.
Nedra Tawwab:
Yeah. It’s like, “Okay, I know you don’t know how to burp a baby mom, but these are the steps we go through.”
Glennon Doyle:
I used to leave my parents directions that they had to read Goodnight Moon, and then I’d put little index cards in between the pages so I could make sure that they did it. Because I would see if they were gone or not. Now that is some crazy ass boundaries.
Amanda Doyle:
No control issues here, Nedra.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t think that’s a boundary.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s just crazy town.
Abby Wambach:
That’s just control.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Okay. Nevermind. Moving right along.
Amanda Doyle:
Speaking of crazy and control, I realize that the vast majority of us need more boundaries. So I don’t want to spend too much time on this because we all live on the boundary-less zone. But is there a world in which somebody has a boundary with you where it’s a red flag? What if they said, “I need to look through your phone. I need the passwords to your email. That’s what I need to be safe and supportive.”
Nedra Tawwab:
Oh.
Amanda Doyle:
Is it always the case that we should be accommodating?
Glennon Doyle:
People’s boundaries.
Abby Wambach:
Somebody else’s boundaries. That’s good.
Nedra Tawwab:
That’s a really good one. I would say that is not a boundary as much as that is something to do with attachment. I think we can’t over-analyze things as boundary issues. And I think we do that sometimes when we’re trying to justify our behavior, “My boundary is you have to give me your phone.” I would say you’re trying to control someone else’s behaviors, their life, their interactions. And that’s very different than managing yourself with your boundaries.
Nedra Tawwab:
I think in that situation, the boundary would be, “I will not look through your phone” or you know, something else. I don’t think it would be “You have to show me your phone to make me feel safe in this relationship.”
Glennon Doyle:
How do you deal with marriage boundaries? I’m somebody who wants the lights turned off at 6:00 PM. Not really, but like, but my partner would like to see after 6:00 PM. So I say, “What makes me feel safe and warm and taken care of is to have the lights out.” And my partner says, “What makes me feel safe and warm is to not have the lights out.” How do you negotiate two married people’s boundaries? Because the Venn diagram of boundaries is something that we’re constantly-
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, it’s evolving. And a lot of people rely on, “Well, you knew this when you got into the relationship.” But actually, people evolve, they’re always changing.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Sometimes things change. Sometimes you become somebody who wants to turn the lights off at six o’clock and the other person becomes a person that doesn’t want that. How do you negotiate and navigate that?
Nedra Tawwab:
Well, I think about how do we accept differences? How do we acknowledge them? And how do we live with them?
Nedra Tawwab:
I think if you are in a home with another person, hopefully it is a home that has multiple rooms. Perhaps you can go to a room and turn the lights out and this other person, they can go in this room and have the lights as bright as they want to have them. We may not be able to exist in the same space. Maybe sometimes I come over to your well lit room and sometimes you come over to my dark room. And at nighttime, when we agree that it can be dark after 10 o’clock, we collectively cuddle up together. That’s in a perfect world.
Nedra Tawwab:
Now I think the challenge is in relationships when we are living with people, roommates, marriages, just partner situations. What’s really tough is different living styles, right? I am a quiet person, so loud TVs and I see that look… Loud TVs and music. I am often caught sitting in my closet because I can’t even hear it if I sit in my closet. So I have a whole meditation pillow. I just hang out in there because I think you should be able to listen to the loud TV.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Nedra Tawwab:
And you should be able to listen to the music.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Nedra Tawwab:
I’m going to go to my little secret spot and just zone out for a minute. Now, there are times where I will say to my kids on the weekends, especially before 9:00 AM, “You have to wear headphones if you’re listening to something.” I don’t want to hear anything before nine, but after nine o’clock it’s I don’t know whatever this thing is and it’s super loud. Just like, “Is anyone watching this? What’s happening?”
Glennon Doyle:
Nedra, you just-
Glennon Doyle:
You just saved our marriage.
Abby Wambach:
You just solved a pretty big marital-
Glennon Doyle:
This is why Luvvie was like, “You will talk to Nedra.”
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
“You will talk to Nedra, Glennon Doyle.” Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
Because what you are saying is the opposite of like codependence and control. It’s not me and Abby sitting in a room discussing lightness and darkness until we die. It’s remembering there are separate rooms in our house. And it’s not me going upstairs and saying, “This is insane how loud this TV is.” It’s like going to my special spot.
Abby Wambach:
I literally just happened the other day, y’all. She walked out of the bedroom, she wasn’t even in… Nobody was in the room I was in. I was watching TV show, happened to be like a fight scene and it was-
Glennon Doyle:
Violent.
Abby Wambach:
It was distressing to her. She opens the door-
Amanda Doyle:
It always happens to be a fight scene, Nedra.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
She opens the door and she’s like, “Who is listening to the TV? That loud?” I was like, “It’s just me up here.” And that was upsetting to her. So this is good.
Glennon Doyle:
This is good, Nedra. Really good.
Amanda Doyle:
This is so perfect because what you just said, it sounds so simple. Like you go into room, you go into a room, but it presupposes a giant host of very evolved thinking. We don’t actually have to, to be in a relationship, beside each other all the time.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
We don’t have to sit in this room where I’m just shooting devil darts out of my eyes at you, because how the hell can you have these lights and can’t see on my face that I need them darker? Acknowledging each other’s needs and being separate and not thinking that threatens your love.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s very good.
Abby Wambach:
Nedra, I do have a quick question. I think it’s really interesting how linked boundaries are with knowing what you need. How much work do you do talking to your patients about them working out what they really want? Because I should have struggled in my life creating boundaries because I didn’t really know exactly what I wanted.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Or how to express that and communicate that with other people.
Glennon Doyle:
Because it’s two different steps.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s first knowing what you need.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
And then learning how to express that.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Nedra Tawwab:
I would say the real work is paying attention when you are having uncomfortable feelings and that will reveal what the needs are.
Nedra Tawwab:
When I am feeling anxious. What is the thing? Is it that I have to interact with a person who doesn’t allow me to speak about myself ever? So my need is to talk more about myself in this relationship. When we have the discomfort of anxiety, depression, resentment being confused, those are all times to really think about why. “Why am I feeling this?” And the need will come up.
Nedra Tawwab:
We have grown to try to fix ourselves to accommodate others, right? So we have a problem. “I can’t have any need.” “Why do I have the TV so loud?” Instead of, “I really like the TV loud.” It’s like, “Should I accommodate this?”
Nedra Tawwab:
Some things in relationships should be accommodated, but there are other things that we don’t have to compromise on. I think there are things about me that probably annoy other people. And it’s like, “Hey, I’m going to do it all by myself because I realize this is not your thing and I don’t want you to feel like you have to do these things with me because they’re important to me. Because I want you to have fun. I want you to experience joy.” It’s like me trying to watch sports. I’m not a big sports person. I’m the worst person to watch sports with because I’m telling you about this person’s story. “Oh, I saw this guy. He was the guy whose mom…”
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
It’s like nothing to do with sports.
Amanda Doyle:
Correct.
Nedra Tawwab:
So you don’t want to watch sports with me. You want to figure out a way to watch sports with the people you enjoy. It’s not going to be me.
Abby Wambach:
Glennon would like to watch sports with you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. You can watch with me. I like to talk about people’s sisters, and their dogs, and what they’ve overcome. Not so much about goals.
Nedra Tawwab:
Oh, I will pick a team based on someone’s story.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
I’m like, “That is the guy whose parents were in a car accident. I want that team to win.”
Glennon Doyle:
That’s exactly it.
Nedra Tawwab:
That’s what is that team? That’s who I want to win.
Glennon Doyle:
What other reasons why we don’t know what we need? Why do we not grow up with healthy boundaries? Why, Nedra? Why is everybody freaking figuring this out when they’re 45 years old?
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
It just seems so basic. We should learn as human beings what we individually need and then learn how to communicate it. So why is it a crisis in our midlife?
Nedra Tawwab:
We are talked out of them. I think we have boundaries when we are little people and we know exactly what we want, but it is not what the adults want for us.
Nedra Tawwab:
The teacher doesn’t want you to get up and jiggle your butt. The teacher doesn’t want you just walk into the pencil sharpener and doing all these things. Your parents want you to be around a particular set of people. Your parents want you to show up in a certain way. They will force you to wear a dress. They will force you to love dance. You know, all of these things.
Nedra Tawwab:
So we start to force ourselves to do things we don’t like. We start to force ourselves with discomfort because we don’t want to upset other people. So we have been taught to please others. We have been taught to go with whatever someone else is saying should be for us.
Nedra Tawwab:
What I notice about women, when we get ready to go out, someone sends a text and says, “What are you wearing?”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
Right?
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Nedra Tawwab:
Because we all want to dress alike. Right? It’s like, “Oh, if you’re wearing pants, then I’m going to put on some pants.” “You’re wearing jeans. I’m going to put on some jeans, too.”
Nedra Tawwab:
We don’t want to stick out in any way. So we conform. We don’t want to upset, ruffle feathers, be the unique person in the crowd. We want there to be this melting pot and we want to present as, “Oh, I love everything.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Nedra Tawwab:
“I get along with everyone.” That is really hard because we’re all unique and it’s not true. We’re constantly fighting against that. I have said to people who say things like “I’m always late.” “Okay, how do you embrace that about yourself? How do you build a life and start to let people maybe know that? When I say five o’clock I really mean 5:15.” You know? Instead of feeling bad, trying to force yourself, like all of these things.
Nedra Tawwab:
I’m a morning person. I am shocked at the amount of people who will try to force themselves into being a morning person. Stay up late if you want to. That’s what works for you, that is your creative time for me. I can’t really do anything but watch TV pass eight o’clock. I can’t create anything. That doesn’t work for me.
Nedra Tawwab:
But how do you embrace who you are? Because we live in a world where there’s constantly, this idea of “You need to be this,” or “You need to be that.”” Why aren’t you doing more baking? Why aren’t you doing more traveling?” It’s okay to not like the travel.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Nedra Tawwab:
It’s okay to love a bagged salad over cooking an elaborate meal.
Amanda Doyle:
I feel like what you talk about so beautifully, this fear of rejection or appearing mean because people will say all the time “I just don’t know how to tell them no. I don’t know how to.” But it’s like, “Yes, you do. You just said it.” So we tell ourselves, we don’t know how to say it, but really we know exactly how to say it because we just said it to you.
Abby Wambach:
We just don’t want to.
Amanda Doyle:
We just don’t want the reaction to it. Or we don’t want other people to see us in a certain kind of way.
Nedra Tawwab:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And so-
Glennon Doyle:
We want to be liked.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, because it’s confrontation.
Glennon Doyle:
We want to be liked more than we want to get what we need.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
Because isn’t it true, Nedra, that it’s the knowing of the need, which I love what you said. “If you want to know what you need, think about what makes you uncomfortable.” That’s why we miss it, too, because we’re taught not to be uncomfortable. So instead of interrogating discomfort, we just numb it. So if we sit with our anxiety or our anger, we figure out, then that might be pointing to a need. Then we have to figure out how to communicate it.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. How the heck.
Glennon Doyle:
And then we have to deal with the after. The after’s way worse, because then people have a reaction. So do you get that from people where they set a boundary, but then the hardest part is the keeping of the boundary and the dealing with other people’s discomfort after? What are the strategies for dealing with the after of setting a boundary?
Nedra Tawwab:
This is the really tough part because we do know what to say in many cases. We do know how to kind of figure out what we need. I do think the challenge is controlling how the other person responds. We are trying to figure out the nicest way to say no, the nicest way to say “I actually don’t want to come home for Thanksgiving.” The nicest way to say all of these really hard things.
Nedra Tawwab:
And I don’t think it’s our job to manage how people feel about our boundaries. That is really hard to get to a space where you stop the management. Because it’s so much work just to create the boundary, just to speak it. We can’t figure out how a person will respond or what they will do.
Nedra Tawwab:
Unfortunately, there are people who get really upset with your boundaries. They may give you the silent treatment. They may even end the relationship. But I would say in most cases, people want to be in relationships with you. They might be upset for a little bit, it hurt their feelings. But they will move on with that boundary. So the idea that we can protect people from that, it’s really not possible in all cases.
Nedra Tawwab:
I think what we can do is be better at letting people have boundaries with us. That is the work that I try to do. When my friend set boundaries with me, I try not to question it. I try to honor the boundary. I will even try to get other people to do it.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Nedra Tawwab:
At the top of COVID, I was on a girl’s trip and I had a friend say, “No one bring up COVID.” And I said, “Hey, you’re about to start.” She said, “Do not bring up COVID.”
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Nedra Tawwab:
So I think it’s one of those things that we have a lot of power right now to honor other people’s boundaries and that lets them know it’s okay to set boundaries with Nedra. She actually listens to your boundaries. Now Nedra can set boundaries with me. There is this two-way street of you have a boundary, I have a boundary.
Nedra Tawwab:
Other people have boundaries. I can think of so many boundaries. People have set with me. I have not ended the relationship because they asked me, “Hey, can you give me a quick call before you stop by?” “Hey, actually I don’t want to go anymore.” Yeah. I haven’t “Oh, this person is not my friend anymore because they no longer wanted to go to lunch.” I just said, “Okay.” You know, I had a outfit picked out, it hurt my feelings a bit, but I moved on.
Amanda Doyle:
I actually feel cozier, and safer, and more secure in relationships and friendships where folks have set boundaries with me. Because I don’t have to question whether they are thinking something about me or feeling a way about me that they have not expressed.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Or they’re doing something they don’t want to do with you.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m thinking, as you’re saying this on the top of my head, the people that I feel like I have the biggest trust in are the people who have over and over being clear about their boundaries. It’s not that people I feel most hurt by. I feel the most hurt by people who haven’t expressed their boundaries and then I found out later.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, they were holding a lot of things that they weren’t saying.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. The people-
Amanda Doyle:
And so I think it brings people closer.
Glennon Doyle:
The kids’ parents that I respect the most, who are friends with my kids, are the parents who do the really awkward thing and like reach out to me and are like, “Do you have any guns in the house, and are they locked up?” My kid can go to their house anytime. But that’s scary to do. I feel like we talk so much about boundaries with other people and we’re going to get to that. All of our questions from pod squaders are about other people. But can you talk a little bit about what you mean about boundaries with self?
Nedra Tawwab:
Those are the boundaries where, and I mentioned one earlier:
Nedra Tawwab:
“I will leave work at five o’clock.”
Nedra Tawwab:
“I’ve had enough to drink.”
Nedra Tawwab:
“I need to not answer my phone when I am not in the spirit or available to speak to this person.”
Nedra Tawwab:
“I need to go to bed at 10 o’clock so I can get up early in the morning, refreshed.”
Nedra Tawwab:
It’s all of those things that have to do with what we can control about our behavior. There are so often times where we put things on other people. Like “This person is always calling me.” They can call your phone all day. You have the ability to not answer. You can block them. You can tell them you don’t like it. You have a lot of power in this situation. You may not be able to stop them from calling. But I know I have a cell phone, there is a way that you won’t even see when they call.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. What’s one of your self boundaries? Because you said even a morning routine is a self boundary.
Nedra Tawwab:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a way that you feel that honors yourself and brings you peace. And it feels like that would be a good way for people to start. If it’s too scary to make boundaries with other people first. What’s one of your self boundaries that helps bring you peace and honor?
Nedra Tawwab:
I would say one of my favorite boundaries is using the Do Not Disturb on my phone. I constantly think about the nineties and how, when you left home, that was it. It was like-
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes!
Nedra Tawwab:
Where are they?
Abby Wambach:
Yes. The good old days.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
We’re so reachable. When my phone rings, sometimes I get so annoyed. You would think that someone is like poking me when my phone rings. I have found that the best thing for me to do is to just not have the sound and when I want to return the call, I return the call. If I want to answer, I answer it. I’m trying to remember “Turn your phone on when your husband leaves the house.” Because he’s like “You’re unreachable.”
Amanda Doyle:
And you’re like, “Correct.”
Nedra Tawwab:
Correct. That is the point. So I’m trying to remember that. “Okay. Turn your ringer on sometimes.” But I really like using the phone when I want to use the phone. I think that’s a wonderful boundary for me.
Glennon Doyle:
Did you hear that, Pod Squaders? Use the phone when you want to use the phone. Okay?
Amanda Doyle:
The tyranny. The tyranny of text.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s carrying a little teeny dictator in your pocket all day that can tell you what to do every second. It’s not right.
Amanda Doyle:
I know we have to go to pod squaders’ questions because they have so many for you, but can real quick, could you just tell me, Nedra, whether unconditional love is a real thing? Because I kind of think it’s bullshit. If boundaries are a way of ensuring health, then how can there be such a thing as unconditional love?
Nedra Tawwab:
That is a tough one. Because I think particularly in adult relationships, they come with a lot of conditions. I mean, even our dating phase is set up for conditions. Like, “Do you like to travel? Where would you like to live? Oh, I don’t like your parents.” You know? All of these things are conditions. So can we really say like, “I love this person unconditionally.” No, you love them if they like to travel. Right?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
And when they don’t want to travel anymore, that is a new condition.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you, Nedra. Thank you.
Nedra Tawwab:
I don’t know.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay.
Nedra Tawwab:
Maybe when I’m a hundred, I can really answer this question because-
Amanda Doyle:
I can wait.
Nedra Tawwab:
My kids are not old enough yet. I’m 90% sure I love them unconditionally.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Nedra Tawwab:
I can’t imagine a thing that they could do where I would be like, “Oh, that’s it.”
Glennon Doyle:
I have an imagining. I have an imagining for you.
Nedra Tawwab:
You have one?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, as a recovering addict. Okay?
Nedra Tawwab:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
So I think just having worked with lots of addicts and in this world for a long time, I think that there is unconditional love for kids, often. But I think that love is defined differently. It’s not unconditional access. Or it’s not unconditional relationship even. If my kids did horrific horrible things and became like Republicans-
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God. I thought you were going to say murderers.
Glennon Doyle:
No, I could deal with that.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like I would always love them, but we might have some serious conditions about access and relationship and all of that.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
Right? But a feeling of deep, deep love and angst and yearning would always be there no matter what. Is that-
Nedra Tawwab:
Yes. So unconditional love for kids, in adult relationships, we start them with conditions.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
So can we really be unconditional if a person has to meet certain criteria?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
So good.
Glennon Doyle:
And they don’t have to. People, you do not have to love your boyfriend unconditionally. You don’t. No. In fact,
Amanda Doyle:
There are conditions. You should not, actually.
Glennon Doyle:
You should not.
Amanda Doyle:
Definitely not.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s a recipe for being treated like shit and calling it honorable.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
You know?
Abby Wambach:
That’s interesting.
Nedra Tawwab:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
You said that if you’re in a relationship with someone only because of the label it carries sister, cousin, father, you don’t have a relationship, you have an obligation, which I love. So you might have obligations throughout your life, but don’t tell yourself it’s an unconditional love relationship.
Nedra Tawwab:
Absolutely.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Let’s hear from our first Pod Squader. That’s what women have unconditional obligations. That’s what we have.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. Let’s hear from Delaney.
Delaney:
Like Abby, I’ve always been a people pleaser and I’m now working through that. The roadblock I keep running into is how do you exit friendships and situations where you don’t want to say something too mean, but you also need to establish that this only worked for the people-pleasing version of you? So, please let me know. And thank you for all that you guys do. Oh, and my name’s, Delaney. I didn’t even say that.
Nedra Tawwab:
I think that we need to try to leave relationships in the most drama free way possible. We don’t want to leave them and let people know everything that we think about them, because it’s not helpful and it’s completely biased. This relationship has changed for you. But clearly this person is in other relationships where, who they are is working. Right? Do they need to know, “I no longer want to be friends with you because X, Y, and Z.” I don’t think people always need to know that. I think there are tons of ways to leave relationships.
Nedra Tawwab:
We’ve been leaving relationships since the beginning of time. I don’t have any friends from elementary school. Middle school? Yeah. How did we leave those relationships? They just sort of fizzle out, They just decrease over time. There wasn’t a conversation where I said to my eighth grade, best friend, “Hey, we’re not going to be best friends anymore because we’re going to different schools.”It just sort of happens that way. So how do we allow things to fizzle out without feeling like we have to keep this constant connection with people? That’s how most friendships end and I think that’s a beautiful ending.
Nedra Tawwab:
Because here’s the thing, we change, and we might want to go back to this relationship. But if we told people “You’re a horrible person, I never really liked your spaghetti. Your boyfriend sucks.” All of these terrible things. I don’t think you’re leaving the door open there.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Nedra Tawwab:
And sometimes we can step away and we may need to get back in there at some point. With our friendships we are so vulnerable, we give so much, if something happens to their parents or your parents, can you imagine not being able to support a person because you’ve shared all of these terrible things about them?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Nedra Tawwab:
You know, maybe we need to leave with our integrity intact and also their confidence. We don’t have to say all of these terrible things to end a relationship. We can just slowly walk away, cut back a little bit on communication and still “Hey, happy birthday,” if that’s what you want to do. But there doesn’t need to be this formal breakup of friendships all the time. Sometimes you do need a formal breakup, but I would say in most cases you do not.
Abby Wambach:
I love that.
Glennon Doyle:
Me, too. That’s beautiful.
Abby Wambach:
In the recovery community, I’m a recovering alcoholic and I had a lot of really strong friendships when I was in the active phase of my addiction. And I don’t have a lot of those friendships anymore. And didn’t have like a “Hey, we’re no longer friends.” I do think that in the recovery world, you do need to build your new life and that sometimes takes time. So having that door that’s always available to maybe include them in your sober life.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s gentle. I like that approach.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
You don’t hear about that a lot. It’s always so dramatic these days. Like, “You have to say the things.” But you’re so right, Nedra. It’s just our perspective on them. We do so much “I have to tell the truth,” but it’s always just our truth. It’s not the truth.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Cool.
Amanda Doyle:
So this question is from Alex. Hi, my name is Alex. I was calling with a question about parents, and I guess people in general, and the whole idea of keeping score.
Amanda Doyle:
So for some context, I have lived at home in my parents’ basement, which they have really lovingly finished for me, for the past year while I did my master’s degree in Special Education and taught full time. I am so privileged and it was really wonderful. But now, as I’m coming out of that year, I am noticing, and this has been happening kind of my whole life, anytime I set a boundary or communicate differing views, the scorecard is brought up. The “Oh, we bent over backwards for you.” I’m just wondering if you have any advice for where to begin dealing with it, because I love my parents more than anything, but also I’m my own separate human.
Amanda Doyle:
So this woman lived in her parents’ basement. They did a ton for her. She’s living with them, trying to set boundaries. When she tries to set a boundary, they basically present back to her how much they’ve done for her as if she is not entitled, because of that exchange, to have a boundary.
Nedra Tawwab:
I think that’s a beautiful thing to say. All of the stuff you just said. “I realize that you do a lot for me. I greatly appreciate it. However, when you help, it seems like it comes with some sort of strings attached. I have to be hyper thankful. I can’t have an issue with anything else and that’s very hurtful because I do appreciate it. But I also want to be able to have boundaries in this relationship.”
Glennon Doyle:
And Nedra, that could work or-
Amanda Doyle:
or-
Glennon Doyle:
It could be that those parents are like, “But the thing is, you’re in my basement.” There are exchanges where it’s like, maybe you are trading some freedom. You’re actually on other people’s bounds.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Trying to make boundaries. It’s tricky.
Nedra Tawwab:
Yeah. I think about this sometimes, especially with folks who are parenting adult children, and they are saying, “Oh my gosh, they need so much.” And I wonder, how comfortable are you making it for this person to be in a space you don’t want them to be in? How comfortable are you being a child with your parents to the point that they don’t even consider you an adult? Sometimes with adult parents, when you’re ready to be treated like an adult, you have to engage in full adulthood. And you really have to detach so they don’t have anything to hang over your head. It’s wonderful when you have parents who help you and they don’t mention it, but in many cases, people do feel like if I’m helping you, “There are some contractual agreements. I have some say so. You may need to do these things. And I can say to you, remember that time I helped you?” Things do happen as a result of receiving help from your parents.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I think this is going to be an ongoing conversation of negotiation because especially with the economy now, I just read that 30% of all Gen Zers are living with their parents. It might have to be a conversation that’s bigger. It’s almost like “I’m not living with my parents. We’re we have communal living now.” Right? But if you have communal living, that means all kinds of different contribution. So a boundary conversation might go both ways, in that situation. Like “If you’re coming to us with your boundaries, you also better be coming to us with your paycheck” sort of situation.
Nedra Tawwab:
A portion of it. Yeah. Or even, “I’ll cook a few days.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Nedra Tawwab:
Or instead of having a housekeeper, “Hey, I will clean the house on Saturdays.” Perhaps giving a little bit will help them see you as this autonomous person, or even as someone who lives in the home and not just their kid that they’re taking care of.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Let’s hear from Deanna.
Deanna:
My name’s Deanna. About a year ago, I moved out of my apartment from my parents’ house. I’m in my place, my own city. I’m 24 with the job and it’s my first time really being on my own. The first couple of relationships I experienced throughout my teens and early twenties were really difficult, toxic relationships. They were not good for me. So as soon as I moved to this new apartment a year ago, I met my neighbor, he’s a really nice guy. Now here we are, 12 months later, we’ve been dating for about seven months now. It’s the healthiest relationship I have ever been in. It’s just so easy and effortless and we have so much fun together. However, there’s definitely been some issues when it comes to boundaries as we are neighbors and our front doors that we literally three feet apart from each other.
Deanna:
I was wondering if you guys had any tips on boundaries in a relationship like this, when it’s your first healthy and enjoyable and really fun relationship in a long time, it’s hard to make the time and space for the things that are important to you, individually. And just making sure you’re paying attention to yourself, taking care of yourself, just as much as you would if you weren’t in that relationship.
Abby Wambach:
That’s so good, Deanna.
Amanda Doyle:
Good for you, Deanna.
Nedra Tawwab:
I hear a lot of self boundaries here.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes!
Nedra Tawwab:
I hear a lot of “I’m going to the movies.”
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Nedra Tawwab:
“I am going to grab something to eat.” And not necessarily inviting your boyfriend to be a part of those things. When he attaches himself to those experiences, being clear that you are trying to carve out some alone time. And offering, “Hey I’m going to the movies today by myself, but maybe on Saturday, we can do this thing.” So it’s not just “I’m spending all of the time by myself. We can do some things together. And I want to do things separately.”
Nedra Tawwab:
In the beginning of relationships. Oh gosh, I’m so excited that the honeymoon phase does not last because it’s impossible.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Nedra Tawwab:
The amount of energy you have in the beginning of relationships, it’s like, I don’t, I didn’t sleep. I was talking all… It’s just you want to be with this person all the time and at some point, there’s this click of, “Oh, I have friends!” “Oh my gosh, remember I used to be on the soccer team?”
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
It’s like, “Where was I?” You were falling, you know?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Nedra Tawwab:
And once you get to that space of recognizing like, “Okay, whoa. Back to self, back to self.”
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Nedra Tawwab:
There is this slowly moving back to that. And acknowledge it, “We have just been spending so much time together that I actually forgot that I really like the bowl.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Nedra Tawwab:
“I want to go bowling just by myself. It’s my thing. I want to get back to that.” Just letting that new partner know that, “Wow, this has been amazing. Let’s keep it up. And also I need some time to myself.”
Abby Wambach:
So good.
Glennon Doyle:
And that’s sexy. Having a self is sexy.
Abby Wambach:
I know.
Glennon Doyle:
That is the sexiest thing, Deanna. It’s like, if you’re going to say, “I love you,” there has to be an I, and there has to be a you. Right? In the beginning, there’s no I or you.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Which just means that’s not even love. It’s being on drugs. It’s being on drugs.
Nedra Tawwab:
It’s so wild.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Right?
Nedra Tawwab:
It’s wild.
Glennon Doyle:
I and the you are the real thing.
Abby Wambach:
I was walking this morning by myself and I had this grateful moment that I was alone, which is a big deal for me, because I’m a people person, big time. So it’s taken me a long time to get comfortable being by myself. Just this year, I’ve been consciously making choices to do things on my own. The codependency that we had for so long me just making sure you’re okay. Doing everything together. But today on my walk, I was like, “Look at you. You’re walking by yourself and happy about it.”
Glennon Doyle:
Well, and Nedra, you would’ve been so proud of us. A year ago, we stood on the beach and argued because I wanted to walk on the beach and Abby wanted to sit on the beach. So we had a very long argument about whether we would walk or we would sit. It took us a half an hour to figure out-
Nedra Tawwab:
To do both?
Glennon Doyle:
Oh I can walk and she can sit.
Nedra Tawwab:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
But don’t you think that’s such a cultural disservice, this idea that if we loved people enough, we would want to do all the things with them? This idea that if you haven’t found someone you want to be with all the time, then you haven’t found the right person.
Abby Wambach:
That’s not the perfect partner, that’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
Nedra, can you speak for just a moment on the difference between enmeshment and attachment? Because that is not actually a signal of your healthiest connection you can have with someone.
Nedra Tawwab:
Yeah. Enmeshment is giving up of self. So if you are enmeshed and you are doing things that you don’t actually enjoy, it’s not really fulfilling. You’re doing it for this other person. To some extent, there are some things that you will do in a relationship for the other person, but what are you doing for yourself? What things do you enjoy by yourself? Maybe with friends outside of the relationship with family members. We do think that, “Oh my gosh, I want to be around this person all the time. This is love.” But there are tons of people… I think about, many grandparents who stayed married, sleeping in separate rooms. It’s like, “This is the only way we can be together because I can’t take that snoring.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Nedra Tawwab:
Or whatever that is.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
It’s like, “We’re still together because we’re not sleeping in the same room.”
Abby Wambach:
Right.
Nedra Tawwab:
You know, we always thought like, “Oh, this is terrible.” Maybe it’s not, maybe it’s not terrible.
Amanda Doyle:
Not looking so terrible now folks.
Nedra Tawwab:
Yeah. It’s like maybe we have different sleep habits. Isn’t it a healthy thing to be able to sleep at night?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
So if that means that, “Hey, I can still be in this relationship, but I just need to go down the hall at nighttime.” Hey, what is the problem there? We curate the rules for our relationships.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Nedra Tawwab:
And sometimes we are looking at other couples, We’re looking at our parents and people on TV-
Abby Wambach:
Hollywood. Yeah.
Nedra Tawwab:
Yeah. And we’re saying, “This is what a relationship is supposed to be like.” It’s like, that’s what that relationship is supposed to be. You have to figure out what works for you. For you, Abby, you’ve discovered you like watching movies really loud by yourself. That’s your thing.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Nedra Tawwab:
You want to do that with someone who enjoys it. And guess who it is? It’s you!
Abby Wambach:
It’s me!
Nedra Tawwab:
It’s you.
Abby Wambach:
It’s me. I get to do it with me!
Nedra Tawwab:
Yeah. Can you imagine doing that with Glennon and she’s complaining? You get to have it on full blast and hear all of the sound effects on your action movie.
Abby Wambach:
I’ve gotten so good at reading movies because I just turn the captions on so the volume could be lower.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, every time I’m locked in the closet, hiding from the… I’m going to call Nedra, from the closet.
Amanda Doyle:
Closet to closet communication.
Glennon Doyle:
The last question is from Kathleen, with whom I am obsessed.
Kathleen:
Okay. My name is Kathleen and here’s my situation. The other night, Saturday, I decide I’m super sleepy and I’m going to go to bed. And I tell my husband and he’s very angry. Then he sort of does that passive aggressive, I’m not going to pay attention to you, whatever, till the next morning. The next morning I asked why he was so angry. And he says, “It’s so aggravating. It’s like, you’re on your own schedule.” And I kind of hesitate and don’t respond and go about life.
Kathleen:
But it’s been eating at me and I have to think, what the fuck does that mean? Of course, I’m on my own schedule. I’m a grown up. My kids are grown up. Whose schedule should I be on if not my own schedule? So there’s my thought. Talk amongst yourselves.
Glennon Doyle:
Nedra, Kathleen wants to know what the fuck does that mean?
Nedra Tawwab:
Well, time is a huge boundary area and it’s one of the big things that we can control. And you do get to decide how you want to spend your time. At nighttime, you may not want to go watch TV.
Nedra Tawwab:
I think what has happened here is her husband is under the impression that he controls the time that they spend together. So there has to be some shifting in the relationship of boundaries. There has to be some communication. All of those things she just said, “My kids are out of the house. I am a grown up. When I am ready to go to bed, I will go to bed. At that time, I will go read a book. Whatever I want to do is what I will be doing.”
Nedra Tawwab:
So I think that needs to be made clear. We know that, but does he know that? It sounds like it was a shock and a surprise. It sounds like it was a shift from the normal routine. So there needs to be this consistency in you doing what you want to do with your time, particularly if the kids are out of the house and things have gone a certain way until this point.
Glennon Doyle:
Nedra, if somebody comes back with passive aggressive, because bless all of our hearts, that’s all we’ve learned. Nobody taught us how to be assertive. When we’re, we just say something shitty and then like-
Abby Wambach:
Or the silent treatment.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So when our friend, Kathleen, when her husband is doing the passive aggressive thing and is saying, “Oh, it’s like you have everyone’s schedule.” How do we respond to passive aggressiveness in a way that actually helps us get to the root of something, as opposed to just playing a ping pong game of passive aggressiveness?
Nedra Tawwab:
Name it. Saying to someone “You are being passive aggressive. This morning, you didn’t talk to me for an hour. And then when you said something, it was rather mean.” I take my language back to kindergarten. It’s very simple.
Nedra Tawwab:
“That was mean.”
Nedra Tawwab:
“I don’t like that.”
Nedra Tawwab:
“That hurt my feelings.”
Nedra Tawwab:
I use those statements a lot. I want people to know, I didn’t like that. So you have to be able to communicate that in a very simple way and let him know that this behavior is not okay. “When you’re upset with me, I would prefer it if you had a conversation around what’s bothering you.” And let’s think about some compassion here and a little bit of empathy, your husband is also in a space where the kids are outside of the house. I don’t know the level of involvement there, but that can be a difficult transition sometimes.
Nedra Tawwab:
So perhaps he is looking forward to spending time with you. I’m sensing a bit of disappointment. “I missed you” is what I’m hearing. And “I feel hurt that you didn’t want to be with me in that time.” So how do you all have a conversation about what you’re really feeling and get all of this tough guy stuff out of there, like all of this tough stuff that we do instead of really saying like “That hurt me. I’m afraid, I’m disappointing. There’s a lot of changes happening and you are the only consistent thing.” Because that’s what I’m hearing from that scenario.
Abby Wambach:
Nedra, can you give us a little script at ways in which setting boundaries can be done easily? For me, it would be good to have like in my back pocket, as we end this conversation today, to be able to say, “Okay, I could maybe start there.” Something as the most simple way to set a boundary?
Nedra Tawwab:
I think of a few starter phrases like “I need…” or “I want…” or “I expect…” Or “No.” Just simple sentences.
Nedra Tawwab:
I think sometimes we really complicate it because not only are we stating the boundary, we’re trying to get the other person to agree with it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
So we’ll say a whole bunch of stuff, “I need you to sit with me because the other day I sat with you and this is really important to me because every time I sit down, I think about you.” And it’s like, what are you saying? So if we can keep it simple and if there’s a conversation to be had, perhaps going to that conversation, but lots of boundaries are just statements.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
When I think of “I need you to watch the kids while I’m cooking dinner.” That’s just a statement. There’s no conversation to be had. That’s a sentence. “When you’re upset with me, I’d like you to talk about that, instead of treating me as if you’re upset.” That’s a sentence.
Nedra Tawwab:
So I think sometimes we are trying to think of these talking points and it’s not necessarily required. You talked about arguing on the beach for 30 minutes. One of the things that I try to teach couples is argue, but don’t do it for a long period of time. Because if you’re doing it for 30 minutes, a hour, you’re just repeating yourself.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Nedra Tawwab:
You’re not really saying anything new. Nothing is being discovered.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Nedra Tawwab:
I know that.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, it’s true.
Nedra Tawwab:
That’s for damn sure. I had a new awakening after four hours.
Amanda Doyle:
Thank God we got to that 43rd minute where we really got to the crux of it!
Nedra Tawwab:
Yeah, it’s really like “My point, my point, my point, my point, again.”
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
“My point, point, point.” You’re just going and it’s like, are you going to say something different? Do you have a new example?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
It’s really not new stuff. You’re really just trying to get this person like “Agree with me. This was good. I said it differently.” And it’s like, you’re saying the same thing.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Nedra Tawwab:
This really could have been five minutes.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so good.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s so true.
Nedra Tawwab:
What are we spending time on here?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Everything that you teach, it starts with the foundation of believing that you are worthy of having it. Because I think the reason why I do the 40 minute presentation, like I’m a lawyer, right? Like I’m preparing a case, is because somewhere, I believe, I need to have a case prepared because I have to prove that I’m worthy of having needs. So what if we just all started with the actual definition of being a human being, which is that we will all have needs. So everyone is worthy of having needs.
Nedra Tawwab:
Everyone is needy.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
It’s so funny because people say, “I am needy.” I’m like, “Me, too.” What do you need?
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Nedra Tawwab:
We’re all needy. We all need stuff. Some of us are more open to expressing those needs. That’s how you get that label of being needy. But I have a lot of needs. Sometimes we’ll diminish our needs because we don’t want to present as needy, but I think 100% of humans are needy.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Nedra Tawwab:
We have all sorts of preferences now whether we communicate those or not, but we have preferences in there. It is just a part of being human to have these needs. So how do we get better at expressing them?
Nedra Tawwab:
I remember when I stopped eating pork and I would be so afraid to tell people I didn’t. I’m in the south. Right? So I would be… They put pork in everything. Oh my gosh. I just, every single thing. I’m from Detroit. So when I moved here, I was like, “Oh, wow. I really have to ask, ‘is there pork in that cornbread?'” You know?
Amanda Doyle:
That’s amazing.
Nedra Tawwab:
“Is it pork in that lemonade?”
Amanda Doyle:
Yep.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Nedra Tawwab:
You know, everything is like pork-infused, bacon, bacon.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Nedra Tawwab:
So how do you start to express to people? Like, “Is there an option where I don’t get pork in this meal? Can this be prepared that way?” So many times I used to just pick it off. Like, “I don’t want to inconvenience them. I’ll just eat around it.” But once people start to say, “Yeah. I’ll just take it off.” It’s like, “Oh wait, you’ll listen to me? Wonderful.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s end with that.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
That is the best metaphor I could imagine.
Amanda Doyle:
We’re out here living our lives, just picking pork out of stuff. That’s what we’ve been doing.
Glennon Doyle:
We can have a life that isn’t that.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
That is pork-free, if we just effing ask.
Abby Wambach:
Ask. Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
And we say, “I am needy.”
Abby Wambach:
Yes!
Glennon Doyle:
Because people who pretend they’re not needy are bitter people.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Nedra Tawwab:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
I loved this conversation so much.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, of course you did. Because you get to watch your freaking TV at… The repercussions of this conversation, Nedra, are many. So we appreciate you. Thank you for teaching people how to have healthy relationships through boundaries.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s really beautiful work you’re doing and-
Nedra Tawwab:
You’re welcome.
Glennon Doyle:
For the rest of you, figure out who you’re in a relationship with this week that only allows your people-pleasing self. That sentence got to me. It’s an interesting question. And also start your sentences with, “I need…”, “I want…”, “I expect…”, “I prefer…” The end.
Abby Wambach:
And “No.”
Glennon Doyle:
We’ll see you next week. Bye.