Chelsea Handler: On Breaking Up & Being Unbreakable
July 21, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome to, We Can Do Hard Things. Today we have our dear friend Chelsea Handler, who a few days ago, announced her breakup from Jo Koy, and who is here today to talk about that breakup publicly for the first time. This conversation with her is, well, it just changed my heart. It’s a lesson in how to love and how to let go, and how not to abandon yourself. Chelsea Handler.
Chelsea Handler:
Let me start your podcast for you today, shall I?
Glennon Doyle:
Please do. Please, please.
Chelsea Handler:
Oh hey sissy, what’s up? Hi, I love you. I love you on the podcast, Amanda. I just wanted to say you guys, we have been trying to schedule this for months for me to come on, and I was going to come on with my boyfriend who’s now my ex-boyfriend, Jo Koy, and I was scheduled and because Glennon and I have a very beautiful, honest history together. When we were scheduled, we were having some issues and I texted her and said, “I don’t think this is a good time for us to come on and be representing relationships or couples or anything.” We’re going to head to some therapy and try and sort this out. And now here I am alone, and I just publicly announced that Jo Koy and I are going our separate ways. And I couldn’t be happier to be spending this morning with all three of you.
Abby Wambach:
Same.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel the exact same way. I wish I was actually just on your couch right now, but this will do.
Chelsea Handler:
On my lap. I wish you were on my lap right now.
Glennon Doyle:
Same. Same. Let’s just-
Chelsea Handler:
Holding me like a baby.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what I wish. That’s what I wish.
Chelsea Handler:
A reverse baby hold.
Glennon Doyle:
Ugh. That’s how I feel right now. I mean, I just love you so big and have for so long, and I’m grateful to be with you this morning. I can’t believe that it worked this way, but I’m grateful.
Chelsea Handler:
I know, right. It’s the universe working all of us together at the same time. So yes, yes. Here I am.
Glennon Doyle:
Here you are.
Chelsea Handler:
Yeah, here we all are.
Glennon Doyle:
How are you right now in this moment?
Chelsea Handler:
I’m okay. I mean, I feel optimistic about the future now. I’ve changed so much and my love was so big that it just blew me open. And as painful as the ending of something like that is, I’m so well versed in therapy and understanding that every door shutting is a new beginning. And I do believe it. I don’t think that’s horseshit. I think that when you have the grounding and the courage to say that isn’t working, you’re saying a lot more than that to the whole world, and you’re inviting in things that are going to be workable and more suited to your needs and what you’re available for. And so, I’m really happy to be handling a breakup in an honest way for the first time in my life, instead of distracting, deflecting and doing all these things to be like, “I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m fine.”
Chelsea Handler:
And then the delayed grief hits you three or four months later, and you’re on your knees and you haven’t really dealt with anything. And in this instance, this has been happening for some time with us and I’ve been dealing with it in real time in therapy, out of therapy, with my girlfriends, with all my support systems, knowing that when you’re in pain, to sit with it, not to go away or take an edible, even though I always love edibles. Not to try to numb your pain, is what I’ve learned. That is the best way to get through grief in a real responsible way and in a healthy way where it’s not going to come and sneak up on you later, because as anyone who’s listening knows, when you’re in a relationship or you break up from a love relationship, it is an emotional roller coaster.
Chelsea Handler:
And one day you think you’re killing it, and the next day you are not killing it. And that is now, the understanding of those emotions that they’re coming like, “Okay, you’re feeling strong now. Just wait, something’s around the corner.” And conversely, that’s true. So I’m much more, I have my toolkit now. And that’s the most invaluable thing that I ever got from Dr. Dan Siegel, is my toolkit. And he made me an actualized self-aware person. And having the gift of self-awareness, has been the biggest gift that I’ve been given in this life.
Glennon Doyle:
What’s in your toolkit that you’re going to pull out today, because this is day one, right? This is a big-
Chelsea Handler:
Well, we’ve been dealing with this behind the scenes for a while, but yes, it’s publicly day one. What’s in my toolkit, I meditate, I read a lot, especially when I want to go to the TV to just zone out. I don’t. Well, I do sometimes, but in times like this, I read stuff that I know is going to help me. I listen to things that I think are going to help me and I allow the time for reflection, like sitting in my backyard and looking at the trees and thinking about everything that has transpired and all the good things that I got out of this, and all the greatness and inspired in so many other people, all the people that would come running up to us on the streets of New York City or Memphis or wherever we were being like, “We want your love. We want your love.”
Chelsea Handler:
That made me believe in so much. It made me believe that there is somebody for everybody. And I still believe that my person is coming. And whether that is Jo Koy at a certain time, or if it’s not, I accept that. I’m not in that immature mode where I need to know the answers. I mean, we all want to know when we’re breaking up what the answers are, but that’s part of the unknowing, that’s part of the maturity, is to be sit in the unknowing and still function and just go, “Yeah, this is where I am right now. Nothing is breaking me.”
Glennon Doyle:
This is a question that I think about all the time, with work, with relationships, with everything. How did you know when it was time to stop digging? Because it’s hard to know when to dig deeper in a relationship and when to quit digging, when a relationship is the right kind of hard or the wrong kind of hard.
Chelsea Handler:
I think when it becomes untenable and it becomes unhealthy. If you’re arguing, it’s devolving. If you can’t have conversations that are calm and loving and constant, and you’re not feeling like a team, and then it becomes untenable. People are open sometimes in their lives, and sometimes they’re really closed off. And a lot of people, it’s not a fun job to do the work of looking inward. We all know that, it’s ugly. And if someone had told me before I went to therapy, “Hey, you’re going to be going to this guy for two years, two or three times a week and fucking crying every single day for two hours, and feeling like a lunatic and out of control and unspooled and all of this thing.” I would’ve been like, “No way am I doing that.”
Chelsea Handler:
I don’t have time to feel that bad about myself. And so, it’s not an attractive endeavor for many people. And especially when your pain or your trauma is right here, I understand the wanting to avoid that, the avoidance of wanting to look in with that. And I think, I’m at a place in my life that I have to be with somebody who’s where I’m at with that. And that’s not to say anything about Jo Koy. I love him, and he’s on his own path. I just, that’s what I need as a human being. I had to have a conversation with myself about how much… I wasn’t going to abandon myself. And if I have to choose one person, I have to choose myself.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. So the wrong kind of hard is when you stay in something, when you choose the thing and you abandon yourself for that thing?
Chelsea Handler:
Yeah. When you choose to lower your standards, your expectations. It’s nice to twist and move for somebody, you know what I mean? It’s nice to be bendable, because I used to be so intransigent in my relationships. My opinions were fully formed. I knew what was right. Everybody was wrong. If you disagreed with me, you didn’t know what you were talking about until you agreed with me, and then I could explain to you some more truths like, let me explain what’s going on in the world. Do you know what I mean?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Chelsea Handler:
That attitude when you need to be right, is always when you’re wrong, when you need to be right. And so, I think when you’re not communicating in a loving way, and that becomes a regular thing, then you have to call it, out of love and respect for both of you. You can’t continue like that. And so like I said, it’s nice to bend for people, it’s nice to learn how to compromise, it’s nice to be able to demonstrate my love publicly. That was something I was never able to do for anybody. But I believe Jo needed that. And it was partly for that, and partly for our fans, because of the reaction we got when we got together that warmed my heart so much. And I was like, “Oh God, I’m going to make everybody fall in love. I’m going to find a lid for every pot.”
Chelsea Handler:
And I was so inspired by us. I know if you cracked me open, I can… But Jo didn’t crack me open. My psychiatrist cracked me open and then I was open, and then I was able to bend for somebody and move and compromise and make them the biggest part of my life. But you can’t change somebody intrinsically. And so, I was willing to do so much bending, but there’s a line. And I’m very proud of myself, because I didn’t let myself cross that line.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I’m so too. It’s such a freaking love lesson. And just as inspiring, if not more inspiring than like, “I found a lid for my pot. I’m not changing my pot.” What do you mean when you say your psychiatrist broke you open?
Chelsea Handler:
Well, he opened me. I had all these stipulations, all this protective gear about protecting myself against men, because of my history, because of my brother passing away when I was a little girl and my father retreating emotionally, psychologically afterward, he could never get past my brother dying. He just was never the same. So there was an abandonment on both fronts. And because of that trauma, I layered and wrapped myself up in this bitch. Like, “Fuck you.” Especially if you’re a man, back the fuck up, because I’m going to tell you what to do, and I’m not going to need anything from you. Financial independence was, always, never, ever, ever, ever rely on anyone but yourself. I had to grow myself up when I was a little girl, and we’ve all had our shit, and anyone who pretends they’re haven’t been through shit, then come to my house and I’ll show you some shit. You know what I mean?
Chelsea Handler:
It’s bullshit. But I think that Dan, he took my judgments and he just broke them apart. When I would say, “Oh, I can’t go out with this guy because of this, or I couldn’t go out with Jo Koy because he drove a white Ferrari.” I’m like, “I’ve been there, done that.” Okay. I already went out with 50 cent. I don’t need a fucking white Ferrari in my life. It’s embarrassing for me to get out of a white Ferrari. Okay. Why not have Prada written right on the side of it? Stuff like that, that was not a deal breaker or not a real non-negotiable, but I had made it one. I once went on a date with a guy who wore an Hermes belt that I hadn’t seen, because he was seated when I arrived.
Chelsea Handler:
But when he got up to go to the bathroom, oh no, he got up when I got there and I saw it, and when he got up to go to the bathroom, 45 minutes later, I got my purse and walked right out the door. I was like, “Is this guy fucking for real?” First of all, he is wearing cologne and an Hermes belt. So I was like, “This is a no brainer.” There’s no way any penetration could ever happen with this man, no matter how many showers he took after that cologne, or how many other belts he had.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. You would’ve had to abandon yourself to have sex with him.
Chelsea Handler:
Yes, I would’ve. Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Chelsea Handler:
A different sort of abandoning.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Chelsea Handler:
But yes, no, Dan really just made me look at myself, and what are all these protections about? Why do you think that you don’t need a man? Why do you think that you don’t need a partner? Why? I’m like, “Because I’m happy.” But it was a defense, it was like, “Now I know. Oh.” And added it, as long as it’s an addition, no one’s going to subtract from what I’ve built for myself, for my family, for my friends, from the love that I’ve surrounded myself with. My friendships are so deep now, they’re real, they’re not based on bullshit or convenience or me having a talk show and having to have fake friendships with a million people. It’s not like that anymore.
Chelsea Handler:
Everything is authentic. And if you’re my friend, it’s because I love you, and it’s because you’ve shown me love as well. And I mean, he really made me understand all of the barriers I had around me, and I was able to pick that apart slowly. And then with Jo Koy, he just kept showing up and showing up and showing up, and I capitulated, because I fell for him. And I fell in love with him, because he has so many amazing qualities. And I realized what that can be, what a partnership can be, whereas I used to astute like, “Oh, I don’t want to wake up with somebody in my space.” I mean, like you two with your videos all the time, like the other day when you were just like, “I hate everything. I’m sad all the time.”
Chelsea Handler:
I’m like, “God, Abby does not miss a fucking beat with this camera.”
Abby Wambach:
I know.
Chelsea Handler:
And I’m like, “Oh, I thought that, that would gross me out to have someone in my space so much. And to be connected to someone so much that our dinners were always going to be together, or every vacation was going to be together.” And I learned now that I love that. I love the togetherness with the right person and the right chemistry and the healthiness of it. That is something that I am going to look for again.
Glennon Doyle:
How did this particular relationship change you? Because it’s such an interesting paradigm we have set up for women, which is, if the only victory is a happily ever after forever and ever, if we set that bullshit up, and then what is the inverse of that? A failure is a breakup. But actually, any relationship that changes you to the point that you look like this has changed you in terms of being broken open in a beautiful illuminating way.
Chelsea Handler:
Yeah. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Feels like great success to me. So how has this particular one changed you?
Chelsea Handler:
Well, I think, my heart is not closing because we’re breaking up. That’s one way. I’m not like, “Oh God, I’m done with men.” I mean, I joked with you yesterday, texting that I’m one step closer to becoming a lesbian.
Glennon Doyle:
We can buy it.
Chelsea Handler:
But who is it?
Abby Wambach:
The lesbian world goes, “Wooo.”
Chelsea Handler:
With the demonstration of men in their behavior the last five years, there is a mass exodus of adults onset lesbianism happening. Let’s be honest.
Glennon Doyle:
Correct.
Chelsea Handler:
Everyone is considering it. So people who are not naturally, have no predilection towards women, are like, “Oh, I could do that.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. We can do hard things.
Chelsea Handler:
Yeah. But how he changed me, his vibe, his energy, he injected that. He has an infectious way about him, and he’s up and upbeat. And he gives everybody hugs all the time, which annoys the shit out of me, because he tells everybody he meets, “I love you.” And I had to start saying that to the people that work at my house, whether it’s the pool guy, the landscaper, my housekeeper who I do love, because we’ve been together for 16 years. But I was telling the pool guy that I loved him at the end of our relationship. I’m like, “I love you.” And then I’m like, “Ugh.” If I don’t do it, I’m a big fucking cunt, you know what I mean, after Jo’s hugging everybody. So I was hugging everybody, and he’s changed me in that way.
Chelsea Handler:
I mean, I’m not going to continue hugging everybody. That’s too much. It’s just too much. I mean, I don’t mind hugging, but it’s much better than a handshake, that’s gross at this point. But I don’t need to be telling everybody I love them. I can give love without… There are things that he injected into me that made me just realize my stoke for standup, it came back, my desire and my ambition is back. Whereas, I was for a couple years like, “Who gives a shit about all of this?” I was so judgemental about myself and my participation in Hollywood, in my identity as a famous person. And what did that mean? And how empty was that. All as a result of therapy where you start to analyze what’s your motivation, and are you okay with your identity being completely tied to being a celebrity?
Chelsea Handler:
What does that mean about you, and is that all you’ve got? The self realization of everything made me be icked out by ambition, by working, by putting my nose down or my head down and doing the hard stuff, going back to stand up after I had left it for so many years. I mean, I did that before Jo, but he reinvigorated my love for it. He just directed my special that I shot in Nashville at the Ryman. He really changed the way that I view work, which is great for me, because I’m ready for like, “I’m back in it now, and I’m into it.” And for the right reasons, not for the motivation that I was questioning earlier.
Amanda Doyle:
Do you think that those were defense mechanisms too? If you don’t let people in, because you can be jaded and you can keep them out from touching you, would the same apply for your love for your work if you say like, “Oh, this doesn’t mean anything.” I mean, if you allow it in, does that actually let you love your work again? Do you think there’s a parallel?
Chelsea Handler:
I think there’s a parallel. I mean, I’m so much more present than I used to be. I used to get on stage, have a couple drinks, be like, “Fuck, when is this going to be over?” Not respecting the fact that people are there spending money on me, just collecting all my good stuff and not really respecting the people that are there. Now I go on stage, my standup has never been sharper. I’m always strong, I’m clearheaded. I have a clarity that I haven’t had in so long. And yeah, yeah, it’s taking things for granted. When you’re not able to look at yourself, you’re not able to look at your motivations and what’s behind everything. And in this business especially, it can get pretty confusing if you’re not centered and grounded and constantly reminding yourself that you’re just a human being. This isn’t it all, this does not define you. It is a part of who you are, it is not all of who you are.
Glennon Doyle:
So you announced this yesterday. First of all, what made you announce the breakup last night? Did you have a moment where you’re like, “All right, this is it.” How did you decide that it was the right time?
Chelsea Handler:
Well, my publicist called and outlets were calling and asking. It was getting leaked by people. We split up about a month ago, and I figured we could just reconvene when everything cooled down, and I just figured it was time. He’s got a big movie coming out and I did not want him to be standing on the red carpet, answering questions about me in his big moment. And Jo pretty much takes my lead on things. So I thought I better get ahead of it. Not ahead of it, I just better meet the moment and actually tell everybody how I really feel instead of ignoring it. I hate that. I mean, it’s been such a public relationship, it would be silly to pretend it didn’t happen.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you mind if I read a little bit of it?
Chelsea Handler:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Because I just want to talk to you about the beauty of this actual announcement, because it’s a love letter.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And I think it’s going to teach so many people how to do this in a way that is both powerful and beautiful, and is a victory.
Chelsea Handler:
Mm.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, here it goes. I’m not a crier, but this one might sneak through my lexapro. Okay. Okay.
Chelsea Handler:
I need a lexapro.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh yes, you do. Yes, you do. I can hook you up. Okay. In anticipation of celebrating our first year together, Jo and I recorded this video early, but as many of you have noticed, it’s with a heavy heart we announced that we have decided together, that it is best for us to take a break from our relationship right now. I know many of you were invested in our love, and I wanted to express to you how much that meant to both of us, how much it still means and how much I now believe in love for each one of us. This man blew my heart open with love, and because of him, my life experience has changed forever. To be loved and adored by Jo Koy, has been one of the greatest gifts of my life. He renewed my faith in men in love in being 100% who I am, and I’ve never been more optimistic for the future.
Glennon Doyle:
Jo, you blew my creativity open, my lust for working hard again, being on the road again, and you reminded me who I was and always have been, and my feet have never been more firmly planted in the ground. This is not an ending, it’s another beginning. And it’s a comfort to know that I am still loved and love this man the way the sun loves the moon and the moon loves the sun. Your person is coming. So please continue to root for both of us because, you never know what life will bring.
Abby Wambach:
Aye ya ya. I mean, kindness, generosity, respect leadership.
Glennon Doyle:
A script on how to move ahead, and so what were you going for there? It landed well.
Chelsea Handler:
I was just going for putting out love. I think when you’re in pain, the most important thing you could do is just love out, give it away. Just love out. And when someone else is in pain, I needed to just give him love. And you process this differently as a man and a woman, obviously. And I really thought he needed to hear those things, and I really thought I needed to say them. So everyone knows that it wasn’t, no one cheated or anything like that. It just didn’t work out. And I did everything I could to try to make it work, but it didn’t work out.
Chelsea Handler:
And I wanted to make sure that everybody knew that this is a different me. This is the first time that I’ve ended a relationship where I feel like an adult, and where it’s because it was the mature thing to do. And yeah, what you were saying before is, when do you know when it’s time to get out of a relationship? We always know. We just keep running dialogues in our head to convince ourselves otherwise, but when you know, you know. It’s like any other intuition you have. You have to close your eyes and listen to your gut and understand that sometimes the pain that you’re going to go through for a breakup, is going to be much more preferable than remaining in something that isn’t working anymore.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. That’s the right kind of hard, as opposed to the wrong kind of hard which is just a slow dying of self.
Chelsea Handler:
Yeah. Yes. A dying of yourself, an abandoning of yourself of, I think of myself as someone who likes to set an example for other women and young women, especially to be true to who you are and to do the work that isn’t pretty. And the benefits are there always. I was talking to my friend. I don’t know if you guys know who Laura Lynn Jackson is.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
We know Laura Lynn.
Chelsea Handler:
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I was talking to Laura yesterday, who’s awesome. And she told me to do something that I really did not want to do. And she’s like, this is about your soul. It’s about getting your soul to the next level. This is for your soul journey. If you do this now, you’re raising yourself.
Chelsea Handler:
I was like, “Ugh.” And I was like, “Okay, I’ll do it. I’ll do it.” And I had to make a phone call that I didn’t want to make. And I did exactly what she did, she’s my doctor. I was like, “Whatever Laura Jackson tells me to do in this moment, I’m going to do.” And so, I think about that, you know how we always go through things in life and we can look back at our breakups and we are always like, “Fuck, why did I do that? Why did I call that person when I was drunk? Why did I send that text in reactive mode? Why didn’t I stop and put my phone away? Why didn’t I call my friend before I said that?” And this is that, it’s such a reward to not behave that way.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. It’s like catching up with yourself. When I’m in that reactive mode, I’m like, “Oh, I’m going to regret this in 10 hours.” And then I just plow it out.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, you see it happening as you’re doing it, and you’re like, “Step away. Step… Oh, she didn’t step away.”
Chelsea Handler:
Yeah. Yeah. Step away, step away. Put your phone down and take a walk. It doesn’t take long to cool down and get your senses back.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Chelsea Handler:
And so, it’s just the exercise of doing it. And once you learn that exercise and you practice it, it keeps coming back to you and you don’t forget. Then it feels like you’re missing something when you don’t do it. I used to react to emails before I had even finished reading them. I would be like, “Excuse me, you fucking idiot. Are you a fucking idiot or what?” And be like, “Duh, duh, duh.” And then send, without even… And then I’d be like, “Wait, oh, are there 18 other people on the same email?” Whoopsy doodle. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
My Laura Lynn Jackson, who is a different person, told me that my spiritual exercise has to be, save as drafts, that whether it’s in real life, whether it’s in an email that I can say what I want to say, but I have to press, save as drafts, and not send it for 24 hours. And that’s a way of not being reactive. Do you have tricks?
Chelsea Handler:
I just know to put my phone down. I go outside a lot when I’m thinking. I go grab one of my dogs to calm down, and I just know myself so well now, and not that I’m cooked and I’m fixed or ready for heaven, but I know what’s up with me, what my weaknesses are, and I’ve worked on them really hard. And I’ve had a lot of relationships end, whether they be romantic or friendships. I’ve had a lot of friendships end because of my honesty, or because people don’t want to hear the truth. And I have very, very strong relationship with telling the truth.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, you do.
Chelsea Handler:
I just feel like there’s a dearth of honesty, and I feel like you are nobody, unless you could hold the truth and just tell somebody something that may or may not hurt them. When somebody is in pain and you know something, or you have something, especially for, women are women, you don’t need anyone to just bullshit you. And that’s ruined a lot of my friendships, and it comes off as harsh and it comes off as aggressive and bullying and stuff, but that’s not something that I’m willing to modify. You know what I mean? There are things that you can work on and then there are things that you hold onto, because that part of what makes you who you are, and they’re your character. And you can try and use them a little bit more discernibly, but also again, don’t divorce yourself of your truth.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you feel like, I have a good fiery friend, I see the same in you, which is truth telling. Truth telling, truth telling. Is that not the way that you do love? A lot of people in friendships don’t say the thing or don’t do the thing, and so they’re perceived as the kind ones, the nice ones. To me, the person in a relationship who’s bringing the truth, who’s bringing the fire, it might sound aggressive, but that’s actually love, because that’s taking the confrontational risk and truly showing up for a person. Do you feel misunderstood by that? Do you feel like that is actually how you’re loving?
Chelsea Handler:
Yeah. If I feel one of my friends is being treated in a way that is not acceptable, then I will go to bat for them. You know what I mean? It’s so easy to defend other people than it is to defend yourself sometimes. I had a relationship with a friend for a long time who did some stuff that was really, really hurtful to me. And I swallowed that for a while, but when I saw it happen to another friend that she did what she did, I couldn’t help myself. I was like, now this is what we’re talking about here. I had a conversation with you and now you’re doing it again to our other friend. And I’m watching you. You didn’t hear anything I said. And then that friend immediately sent me an email like, “I need space from you. I can’t be spoken to like this da, da, da, da.” And I was like, “No problem.” Anytime anyone asks for space, no problem.
Chelsea Handler:
You don’t fight that. You don’t resist the change. You just accept it. People are in different places in their lives. In that moment, it was more important for me to stick up for my friend who was not being treated well, than it was to worry about the status of that other friendship. And I pride myself on that. I would do that for a stranger. I would go to bat for someone I met in an airport bathroom, as long as they weren’t asking for a picture while I was on the toilet. And I said this to this woman the other day, I was like, “Can we just get out of the bathroom please, before we do this? Is this the background that you’re looking for?”
Amanda Doyle:
I just feel so much compassion for you, Chelsea. And I feel like you’ve been going through this and it’s so tender and it’s so real, and it’s so big in your life. And then this is day one of a whole nother phase, where you have to do this in public. And it just feels like just as a wound that you’re starting to heal over, heal over. What is it like to then have to share something so sacred to you with the world and all their nonsense, and no one knows what to say? Even the people who are trying to support you, I’m sure saying really stupid like, what is that like, and what can people do better for folks like you who they love and they want to support?
Glennon Doyle:
That’s good. In a breakup, yeah.
Chelsea Handler:
Well, something really sweet happened. When Jo and I broke up, and he was living with me and all of his stuff was being moved out of my house. And my housekeeper, Maybell, who’s like my nanny basically and my dog’s real mother, she and my groundskeeper and all the things that rich people have, they all were sitting with me in the kitchen. I came in one day and broke down, and they loved Jo so much. They all love Jo. Everyone in my life loves him, because he’s such a ray of sunshine. And they came in and Maybell put her arm around me and she goes, “Just so you know, we all loved him, but you’re our girl, we love you. We’re here for you. We will always be here for you.” And just that made me turn into a blathering mess, because it meant so much to me, because I really thought they like him more.
Glennon Doyle:
I get that.
Chelsea Handler:
Like, oh, it’s a reminder that all the people in your life are there because of you. They were there before him. And they’ll be there after him. Nobody was there because of him, all of the people in my life, in my circle, my circle of friends, my family, as much as everyone loved us together, and the magic of what we had when we were together, they have come to me in such a way that’s like, “No, no, no, no. We’re with you.” And not that you have to take sides, it’s not like that, but it’s a reminder that you’re valuable and you have your own relationships and they’re not because of another person, they’re because of you.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. You’re the center of their solar system.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s true.
Abby Wambach:
And you always have been, but when you bring somebody else to the equation, it’s not like you split the solar system. It’s just like a Venn diagram, where Jo was taking up a little bit more space, and then it’s like a reminder, oh no, you are our person. And that’s fucking so sweet.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. How do you think being this vulnerable, broken up Chelsea, which your psychiatrist did to you, do you do that artist thing where artists worry that if they get healthy, they’re right? Like in my world, you can’t get too healthy or your writing will start sucking, because you have to suffer and be miserable in order to have good writing. How do you think your standup and your work world will change with this wise vulnerable openness?
Chelsea Handler:
I mean, it’s always changing. I did a standup special a couple years ago, right after I wrote my last book, that was very profound and meaningful and deep, and something that I didn’t think you could do in stand up until Nanette or Hannah Gadsby did that. And I was like, “Oh, I want to do that. I want to tell that story.” And that was a little bit more serious, but it was received really well. And this special that I just taped, is fucking badass, like OG, my kind of comedy. And I talk about from hating men to falling for Jo Koy. It’s all in there. Covid’s in there, dating, all the stuff that I grapple with. And I just think, if you’re an artist, as long as you’re authentic to yourself. Right now I’m writing a book with Whitney, you’re editor. We share an editor now.
Glennon Doyle:
What?
Chelsea Handler:
Yeah. I just signed a deal about falling in love, about my love story.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Chelsea Handler:
And I was like, “Oh, well, this is similar to what happened with Love Warrior.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Chelsea Handler:
I was like, “Ahh.” But it isn’t, because I still fell in love. I still have my love story. It was by way of Jo, but it’s not because of Jo. Jo is part of my story. Jo is not my whole story, there is still more to come. And so, creatively, I think that, that one line, don’t resist change, from Eckhart Tolle or Deepak or one of those people that I could never have a real conversation with, because I’m like, “What?” But I like to read their quotes, and I like to read their books. I met Deepak Chopra once, and I was like, “Wait, what?” I’m like, “What are you talking about?”
Glennon Doyle:
Just send me your book, dude. Just send me a book.
Chelsea Handler:
I know, him and his rhinestone glasses. I’m like, “This is very confusing messaging.”
Glennon Doyle:
Dissonance. Yes.
Chelsea Handler:
Yeah. ,I was going to say a false equivalency, and I’m like, “Well, that doesn’t make any sense at all.” But I think, if you’re an artist, you always have to accept the change. We always have to just go with the change.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Chelsea Handler:
You have to be like, “Okay, my life is different. This is okay. I’m not unbreakable. That’s who I am. This isn’t going to break me psychologically. My spirit is never going to wane. This is going to make me stronger. I’ve never been more aware of my strength before than I am now.” And that, in and of itself, is something I wish I could just have a big bottle for people to dip it into, because there are so many women that you talk to, that I talk to, that call into my podcast that I just want to hold and be like, “You are so special. You just have to start believing that. You are so strong. We all have this reservoir of strength within us, just by the nature of us being alive.”
Chelsea Handler:
And some of us don’t even realize how easy it is to tap into that, and how available it is for us to tap into. And so, that has to be part of my messaging, and is always been part of my messaging. I don’t do anything creative anymore that doesn’t have a message or doesn’t make you think about what your stance on something is, or how you view the world, or how you view yourself in your own entitlement or lack thereof. So yeah, I forget what the question was.
Glennon Doyle:
It doesn’t matter.
Amanda Doyle:
That was a great answer.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
You used a phrase at the very beginning of this conversation that I’m still thinking about, because you said, I’m dealing with it now, so that I don’t have delayed grief. And in a lot that I’ve heard from you on your podcast, you talk about how, when you lost Chet, your beloved brother, you realized decades later that the delayed grief was an intrinsic part of all the defenses that you put up. And you also talk about how Jo shared so many beautiful qualities with Chet. I’m wondering, did any part of this relationship heal something for you with Chet? And is there something to that, because there seems parallels to, now you’re protecting yourself in the positive way of not delaying the grief?
Chelsea Handler:
Yes. Yeah. I mean, I felt a lot of my brother in Jo. Jo wears flannels all the time, and for a while, I never made the connection, but my brother used to wear flannels all the time. And I remember walking into Jo’s house, into his closet one day when we first started dating, and I saw this just array of flannels, hanging everywhere. And I went, “Oh my God, this is my brother’s closet.” And I remember just, I used to come home after school every day, and go to my brother’s closet after he died to smell his shirts and go through his shirts and sit by myself in his bed, because I was so tough, no one could see me cry. My parents weren’t there. They were probably fucking sleeping, and I would just go in there and do my grieving alone and not let anyone see me.
Chelsea Handler:
No one was allowed to see me cry. No, that was off limits for probably 25 years. And I could cry for other people, but it couldn’t be about me. You know what I mean? And so when my friends would break up, I remember my friend, Amber, her wedding got called off a week before. Her guy left her, and I could not get over that. I was a wreck for her. She was consoling me. I’d be sleeping in her bed and she’d be like, “Can you fucking leave? You are bringing me down.” And my other friend was like, “Hey, I hate to break this to you, but this is not about Amber. Okay. You have some unfinished business.” But I was in my 20s, I didn’t know what I was crying about.
Chelsea Handler:
And now I know what I was crying about, but yeah, there was a lot of Chet in Jo, and there was a lot of my mom in Jo. Jo is so loving and so caring, and does everything for, did everything for me. Would hold his lip balm in his pockets to make sure, because I am a lip balm addict, and holds my purse, never lets me carry anything. In the middle of the night he would put a pillow underneath my legs, because he knows I like to sleep like that. He did so many little, only a mother love-type things, that my mom would’ve done for me. And I felt their presence around us a lot, I felt like they brought him to me for a reason.
Chelsea Handler:
So yeah, there was a lot of healing. There’s been a lot of healing with Chet with Dan, my psychiatrist, because that’s what the crux of all of it was. It was about that, about being abandoned at that early age. And he was an attachment figure to me, he was like my boyfriend. I was nine and he was 22, and he took me everywhere like his little play thing. And I was like, “Where’s Chet? We’re going for a five hour drive to our summer house, I would drive with Chet.” Chet and Chelsea was like book ends. He was the oldest and I was the youngest. So there was a lot of healing that had to happen with Dan, which I hated. I mean, I can’t tell you the amount of times I would sit in therapy, and Dan would be like, “Chelsea, when you were nine…” I’m like, “Dan, please, we’ve been over this so many times. If you draw everything back to Chet, I’m going to stop taking you seriously.”
Chelsea Handler:
And I had that attitude. This isn’t about my childhood. And when someone says that sentence, it is the first sign that you need therapy. And that’s what I said. I go, “There’s nothing to see here, nothing.” I said, “My mom’s dead. My brother’s dead. Hopefully my dad will die soon.” I’m like, “I’m good with death. There’s nothing to talk about with my childhood.” I’m like, “I’m actually just really impatient, impulsive and bitchy. I would like to work on those three things.” And now I know what that sentence meant. And I know when people are stuck, I also can see it, and I can help them. It was funny, I went out with dinner, two of my girlfriends the other night. And it was a dinner to help me and be there for me.
Chelsea Handler:
And my one girlfriend was just a hot mess, just going through this cycle of men and eh and this. And she’s like, “I don’t want a boyfriend, but this guy doesn’t want to be exclusive, and da, da, da.” And I looked at her, I go, “Listen to me, you’re in no place to be making any of these decisions. I’m telling you from sitting down here tonight, you’re not healthy right now. You are unhealthy and you’re not looking at yourself. You are going through something and you have to allow yourself to go through something and stop using men as bandaids on this. That is not going to fix you. You are doing more damage than good.”
Chelsea Handler:
I basically had to shake her. My friend, the next morning, the other friend was like, “Shit, that dinner really turned around.” She’s like, “We were supposed to be there to help you, and then you end up going off on her.” But it’s true, when I see someone in pain, I want to help them. I know what that means now. I know how to untap that grief and say, “Look at yourself.” And so, that’s part of that honesty thing. If you have the tools to help somebody, how could you not?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Mm. My friend calls those carefrontations.
Glennon Doyle:
Carefrontations. That’s we’re going to have done.
Chelsea Handler:
I’m going to write that down, carefrontations. The next time I have one, I’m going to be like, “This is a carefron…” Wait, how do you say it?
Glennon Doyle:
Carefrontation.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Chelsea Handler:
Carefrontation. Okay. That’ll be in the dictionary by March.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes it will. Chelsea will make it. This is a little woo, woo, but do you know the theory that there’s this wound in our life, in our childhood, and then if and when we create this healthier version of ourselves, what we often do next is recreate what happened to us, so we can end it differently.
Chelsea Handler:
Oh no, I’ve never heard that.
Abby Wambach:
Is this under the pitfall?
Glennon Doyle:
But I do think it’s interesting, who knows, if that’s true. Although I feel like I have seen it in many people’s lives, including my own, but it’s interesting that you, this fear of abandonment thing and then the loss of Chet, and now here you are having truly been brave enough to do it, to enter into this, open up your heart and you’re ending it in an opposite. You’re taking that power back that you didn’t have when you were a kid, because you’re doing it in a way where you don’t self abandon, and you don’t grieve in a closet. Actually, you might still be in a closet, but it’s a very public one. You’re grieving, you’re showing all of your pain and grief, dealing with it now instead of putting it away, and you’re doing it for all of us.
Chelsea Handler:
Where is that theory from? I like that.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I don’t know, but it’s just this idea that, that’s how we take back some of the power of our childhood that we have to-
Chelsea Handler:
Yeah, because I mean, people repeat those cycles all the time in patterns. They don’t always end them differently, but they definitely get into the same pattern structure, same dynamic, whether it’s abusive or whether it’s interdependent or avoidant and anxious. All of those dynamics that can be repetitive. You have to disrupt the cycle, right?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. I remember who it is. It’s Dr. Galit Atlas. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Chelsea Handler:
Okay. Let me write that down next to carefrontation.
Glennon Doyle:
She says, we either repeat or we repair.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
So we always repeat the thing, right?
Chelsea Handler:
Ah, yes, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
But either we repeat it mindlessly, or we do this repair thing, which just feels like what you’re doing, which is repeat it, but end it differently. And that, that’s healing.
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm.
Chelsea Handler:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I think that makes a lot of sense, because you talk about your inner child a lot in therapy, with the person that you were, the age that you were when you were traumatized. For me, it was nine when my brother left, so emotionally, I stopped maturing. I wasn’t in touch with how to articulate my pain. I was never told or spoke to a doctor that could help me through that. So in relationships, I would show up as that nine year old girl, I would throw tantrums. And instead of saying I’m hurt or I love you, I would be like, “No.” I would withhold or stump my feet or be silent, like childish behavior. And boyfriends were like, “Listen, what’s your deal?”
Chelsea Handler:
I remember I had one boyfriend who was like, “I don’t know what’s going on with you, but it feels like you have no ability to articulate your feelings.” And I was like, “No, how would I?” I thought by stomping my feet was that. I thought that was how I got it across. And going into therapy and understanding, oh, why you get so stuck when you talk about your feelings, is because I didn’t have the language, and that’s something that I see in a lot of people. And when you don’t have the language to communicate, then you’re never going to have a healthy adult, romantic relationship. You’re never going to.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what you did with that announcement. I feel like you gave people language to do this in a way that is a higher way.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, a wiser self.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Wiser self move. And you write in this new book about your love story. It’s not about you and Jo. It’s about you and you. It’s about, the love story you’re writing, the relationship you’re having with yourself. And I cried and laughed when I was training for my marathon, because I was listening to your book.
Glennon Doyle:
Remember when I found you on the side of the road?
Abby Wambach:
I was just weeping. I mean, Chelsea, I can’t tell you how impactful that book was, and how much I longed for you to find real love. And I think that we get it all so fucking wrong with the love stories and the movie world and TV world. Love is actually the relationship we have with ourselves. And that’s what you showed me with the post and coming out with the story, is the love that you now have, and you’ve created, and you built this world around you for yourself.
Glennon Doyle:
Because so many people have a romantic love story, but it requires self abandonment.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And that’s not it. It’s not just being partnered.
Chelsea Handler:
And I love what you’re saying, Abby, because it’s also, I’ve been in love with myself before, where I really thought, “Wow, you’re fucking awesome.” You know what I mean? You’ve got something that a lot of people don’t got, but to love yourself, is a much different feeling than being in love with yourself.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Chelsea Handler:
You’re not showcasing yourself for others, and falling in love with that. You actually have looked inward, and you love and respect yourself. And once that is built, you can’t take that away from somebody.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s the same way that you can be really strong like you’ve always been. I mean, you have been strong like a bull, and as unapologetic and as shameless, there’s no one that wouldn’t call you strong. And then with this though, you’re strong enough to be weak. I mean, anyone can stand in strength when they are surrounded by a fortress of defenses, but super fucking strong people can stand there with no defenses.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And that’s what I feel like you did with that post. It was equal parts, total strength and total weakness, which we use as a negative thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Softness.
Abby Wambach:
Vulnerability. Yeah.
Chelsea Handler:
Vulnerability. Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
But you were like, this is how much I care. This is how much I care.
Chelsea Handler:
Well, vulnerability is strength. For a long time I looked at that as like, “Oh, vulnerability is weakness.” And it’s like, “No, vulnerability is strength. Vulnerability is knowing that, okay, you’re putting yourself out there in a way that is revealing and uncomfortable, and that’s strong.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Chelsea Handler:
And that’s a good reminder for everybody, because the defensiveness and the toughness and the inability. One thing I learned in therapy that was so valuable, was my inability to be alone, to sit just not even with the TV on, to sit in my backyard and just look at the trees or the grass or whatever. And I didn’t understand why that was an issue. I was like, “But I don’t want to be alone. I like people.” I always had an entourage. I always had people living at my house. And he was like, “That’s great. You can always have that. But if you don’t have a relationship with your own thoughts, if you’re so scared to be alone with your inner dialogue, and you’re scared of what’s going to come up, then you’re fucked up.”
Chelsea Handler:
There’s no shortcut around it. No one gets away with it. No one gets away with not looking at themselves. It will bite you in the ass just when you are on top of the world, like I did with me. I was on top of the world and it bit me in the ass. And then I was defenseless, because I just fell down. You know what I mean? My defenses, I was out of defenses, and that’s not a desirable way for it to happen. It’s so much more positive and-
Abby Wambach:
Powerful.
Chelsea Handler:
… powerful, yeah. Thank you. To seek out the truth and not worry about that dulling your creativity. You’re going to be a fuller whole person who’s going to be even more relatable. Since I’ve cracked open, people can relate to me so much more. I was unrelatable before I went to therapy.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. It’s likely.
Chelsea Handler:
People were like, “What’s wrong with this fucking bitch? Is she like this all the time?” I’m like, “What do you mean? I’m crushing it.”
Glennon Doyle:
Aspirational, but not relatable.
Chelsea Handler:
Exactly. Exactly. And the escapism, I love to party, I love to talk about it. I love mushrooms, I love cannabis, I love alcohol, I love all of it. But my relationship with all of that has also changed because of therapy, because you’re like, “Okay well, that’s an unreasonable amount.” You know what I mean? What are you doing there? And even now, especially in the throes of my feelings right now in this last month of separating from Jo, there are times where I’ve had a couple drinks with friends, and then there are times where like, “No, I don’t want to feel that way. I want to sleep well. I don’t want to wake up in the middle of the night. I don’t want numbness. I don’t want to get drunk and have fun right now. I want to deal with the pain that I’m in, and exhaust that pain and get through it.” Because that is the best way. In that book, I don’t know if you guys have read this David Hawkings book, Letting Go?
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-mm.
Chelsea Handler:
It’s pretty deep and pretty metaphysical. You have to be really down with it when you read it, because otherwise you’re like, “Huh?” And he talks about this guy who lost his mother, and he just went to a cabin and just sat alone in this cabin and cried and cried and cried, until he felt joy again.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Chelsea Handler:
He faced his grief head on, and dealt with it. And he was able to exhaust it at a much quicker rate, than when you are constantly trying to distract yourself from your own pain.
Abby Wambach:
Fuck.
Amanda Doyle:
Exhausting it. I’ve never heard, exhaust your pain. Exhaust your pain.
Chelsea Handler:
Yeah. It’s like running a three year old boy around in the backyard, that’s how I think of pain. Let me fucking run it around, and run it around, so that it gets so tired that it leaves my body in a quicker succession than all the other stuff can delay your grief. And so yeah, I want to exhaust that pain, and it’s working. I feel joyful. Even though I feel heartbroken, I feel so joyful and optimistic and grateful. Grateful for these amazing people in my life. Grateful to be sitting here, having a conversation like this. I would never have been able to talk like this openly before I went to therapy. I would never be able to let anyone see me this way. And I have so much gratitude for that growth, and gratitude for the fact that these conversations on your podcast, on my podcast, on multiple podcasts, I mean there’s only six or seven podcasts, so let’s be honest.
Glennon Doyle:
We have half of them.
Chelsea Handler:
That we are all talking about this stuff, because the only way to make somebody stronger, is to share.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. It’s like the Jewish tradition of sitting Shiva.
Glennon Doyle:
Shiva. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
You just sit Shiva for yourself for a while.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Chelsea Handler:
Yeah, yeah. For yourself. And that’s not to say, it’s not like a pity party.
Glennon Doyle:
No, it’s active.
Chelsea Handler:
Yeah, it’s an active grieving. It’s so funny, because Shiva is so depressing. That’s just the way. Wouldn’t it be great if every funeral was a celebration of life, and we all just took a part of that person and lived in their honor, instead of feeling sorry that they’re not here anymore. No one’s ever really gone. People aren’t gone once you’ve met them, they’re with you forever if you love them and if you had something special, and that’s worthwhile. And there’s a different way to frame death, and there’s a different way for us to cope with death.
Amanda Doyle:
And that’s why it’s so beautiful when you talk about this loss in some way of Jo, is that everything you just said is true. That person is forever going to be part of you, that experience is forever going to be part of you. You are changed because of it. And it’s almost like the rest of your loves that you are now, are in part in honor of that.
Chelsea Handler:
Mm-hmm. Yes, absolutely. My next relationship will only be stronger and better. I don’t have any time for anything other than excellent. And I’m excellent, and I want that in return. And so, there’s a lot of dignity that comes from that self exploration, and a lot of self-assurance. You can go through times in your life, I certainly have, where I have been insecure or self-conscious or second guess myself. And that’s not a fun feeling. And most people don’t know that you could get out of that.
Glennon Doyle:
Chelsea, thank you. Just the way that you are walking through this, is going to change lives, and it’s a victory march, is how I feel about it.
Abby Wambach:
Fuck, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Because it is going to help so many people not abandon themselves, and redefine what victory and love is, which is that, which is perhaps partnering, and only partnering with the person who never requires self abandonment of you. And I just want everybody to repeat the mantra, I am excellent, and I deserve excellence.
Chelsea Handler:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Let us take that. I just fucking love you, Chelsea Handler.
Chelsea Handler:
Oh my God, I love you guys. I love all three of you. I love you so much. And I love that we have a history together, Glennon, from so many years. And we’ve done so many fun things together, whether it be interviewing, well, it’s always interviewing, but it’s so fun to do it with you.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. The rest of you, we will see you next time on, We Can Do Hard Things. Thanks for doing hard things with us, Chelsea.
Glennon Doyle:
We Can Do Hard Things, is produced in partnership with Cadence13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn’t, don’t worry about it. It’s fine.