Reese Witherspoon on Friendship: What, Like It’s Hard?
July 19, 2022
Abby Wambach:
Hello, everyone. I’m Abby. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. And we have a real treat for you today because we’re talking to our dear friend and truly the friend of women everywhere.
Glennon Doyle:
Correct.
Abby Wambach:
Reese Witherspoon.
Glennon Doyle:
Reese Witherspoon is an award-winning actress, entrepreneur, producer and New York Times best selling author. She won an Academy Award for her portrayal of June Carter Cash in Walk the Line which is one of my all time favorite movies.
Abby Wambach:
It’s the best.
Glennon Doyle:
And later nominated in that same category for, you may have heard it, Wild in 2014, which she also produced. Witherspoon also starred in beloved film Sweet Home Alabama.
Abby Wambach:
I love that so much.
Glennon Doyle:
I know, Legally Blonde.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, get out of here with that.
Glennon Doyle:
And Election, me, as well as award-winning television series, Big Little Lies.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, geez.
Glennon Doyle:
Little Fires Everywhere.
Abby Wambach:
I know. It’s just-
Glennon Doyle:
And The Morning Show.
Abby Wambach:
Come on.
Glennon Doyle:
Which turned gay, best moment of our life. Abby and I celebrated that moment on the couch like it was ours, like we wrote it.
Abby Wambach:
Yes. Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
And it was my first moment of gaydar. Remember, I saw it coming before you.
Abby Wambach:
You did actually.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. In 2016, she established Hello Sunshine, a media brand that has changed the world.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
For sure.
Abby Wambach:
Big time.
Glennon Doyle:
And content company dedicated to female authorship and storytelling across all platforms, I’m going to calm down, Hello Sunshine is also home to Reese’s Book Club and Reese’s YA Book Club which focuses on storytelling with women at the center.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Hello Sunshine is now the cornerstone of a larger media company called Candle Media. Reese, are you tired?
Abby Wambach:
Very, she’s got to be very tired.
Reese Witherspoon:
I am. I’m tired. I’m a little tired, but I love my job so much. I wake up every day and I just get excited to talk about… I mean are you kidding me? I can just tell stories for a living and it’s just a dream. But thank you for that lovely intro. Sometimes you’re just working and you forget that you’ve done other things and I’m like, “Oh, that’s so nice.”
Abby Wambach:
I know. And it’s not that you’ve just done things, you’ve done incredible things. All of the things that we just talked about are our favorite movies and our favorite experiences that we share with each other. It’s just incredible to us.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And after doing all of those fantastic movies, it would have been certainly okay for you to be like, “I’ve done what I’m going to do for you.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Thanks, Hollywood, bye.
Glennon Doyle:
But then you changed the whole landscape for everybody and we’re going to get into that. But before all of that, before you exploded the planet with your existence, you were born in March 1976. You and I were born two days apart.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
I know. We’re both Aries, you may have seen it.
Abby Wambach:
That is really something.
Glennon Doyle:
We both got pregnant in our early twenties and got married. We both had more babies then got divorced. And now we are both remarried with blended families and careers. So I want to start with this question, what do you see as the difference between 23-year-old Reese and 46-year-old Reese?
Reese Witherspoon:
Oh, gosh. Well even when you just said that, it brought tears to my eyes thinking about when I was 22 and finding out I was pregnant. And I remember reading Love Warrior and just feeling like, “Oh my God, I had all those feelings.” I was so scared. I was so scared. And not knowing what to do and not knowing what it was going to do to my career. And I had people in my ear going, “I don’t know, I don’t know what you’re doing.” And just having to make a decision or making choices when you’re that young and you don’t know who you are yet. I think back about it a lot. I think back about how I got through having a newborn when I was 23-years-old and my friends were partying and going to clubs, and I was taking her to preschool and putting her in the car seat and pushing her around the grocery store and just talking to her.
Reese Witherspoon:
I talked to her all day and I read to her all day and I sang to her all day and she was my little best friend. But it was lonely. It was really hard and lonely. I was living in LA. I didn’t have any girlfriends. I don’t have a sister. My mom had a full-time job as a nurse, she couldn’t leave her job in Nashville. And so I was just looking, searching for community. And I found it through this group of women at a mommy and me yoga class. And I clung to these women. I just clung to them. These women put their arms around me. They called me every week to see how I was doing. They called me late at night to see if the baby was sleeping. And I have to say, I think I’ve always felt great comfort in female friendship and female partnership because I couldn’t do it without the amazing women in my life.
Abby Wambach:
Amazing. Babe, what’s the difference between your 23-year-old self and your 46-year-old self?
Glennon Doyle:
I think that I believed in structure and institutions more than I do now. I was scared shitless too, Reese, and I was like, “I have to get married.”
Reese Witherspoon:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
“I have to get married. I have to find a church. I have to do the structures to keep me safe.” Even though looking back, I remember my ex-husband saying, “I don’t think we should get married.” And I was like, “Prank caller, prank caller. We’re just going to barrel through.” So anyway, I think a 46-year-old believes in myself more than institutions and my 23-year-old self was different. So those women in that yoga class that you clung to, what a great word by the way, clung, because we’re not supposed to be needy, but we are all needy as shit, right.
Reese Witherspoon:
So needy.
Glennon Doyle:
We’re all so needy. We’re oozing with need.
Reese Witherspoon:
I’m a black hole of need.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Reese Witherspoon:
It just keeps sucking in. And mainly of female friendship, I just need it so badly.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. When we asked you if you would do this podcast, you said, “Yes,” right away. I said, “What do you want to talk about?” And you said, “Actually, my husband and I were just talking last night about how I want to talk more about female friendship.” So tell us why that is so important for you to talk about more in the world.
Reese Witherspoon:
I was talking to him about… First of all, it’s so cute. We talk about you all the time, my husband, my son and I, because we are obsessed with soccer. They watch soccer all day. So mainly we talk about Abby.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I feel you. Same.
Reese Witherspoon:
And then they’re like, “Mom, who’s Glennon?”
Glennon Doyle:
Abby’s wife.
Reese Witherspoon:
But oh my gosh, we were talking about Abby’s stats and the card and my son and how important it was that that decision to equally distribute the money of the U.S. soccer team between the men and the women’s teams and why does it matter? And so then we looked up your stats and your stats were insane and so cool. So I just told him, I was like, “Oh, I’m going to talk to Abby,” and he was like, “What are you guys going to talk about?” “Our feelings.” He was like, “Why would you want to talk about that?”
Abby Wambach:
That’s right. That’s what we do here.
Reese Witherspoon:
First of all, I say to my husband a lot, I thank God that Glennon Doyle’s in the world. I thank God that Cheryl Strayed is in the world, that Liz Gilbert is in this world and I’ll include Ann Patchett and a whole other group of people who when I don’t know where to turn, I look at your writing and your books and it just grounds me. It makes me feel like I’m not alone. And that everything that I’ve been pushing forwards towards, which is sometimes exhausting, and it sounds like everybody you talk to, I was listening to your podcast with Boz, it’s tiring to push a rock up a hill and have it roll back on you all the time.
Reese Witherspoon:
But sometimes, you get a gain and then you’re like, “Oh, we’ve got to gain.” And then sometimes you get a loss and you’re like, “Oh my God, am I going to push that rock again? Jesus, I can’t.” And I cry a lot. But I was telling my husband about something in Love Warrior that really resonated me and it changed the way I am a friend, which was you described telling your story to different people and the different responses that they have. One is the fixer, one is the shover, one is the comparer. And it was the light bulb for me that, I can’t remember which one I used to be, but I was definitely one of those people who was like not this too shall pass, but I was like, “Well I’ve got an incredible therapist.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Fixer I was going to say if I had to pick one, because you’re a helper, you want to help people, right?
Reese Witherspoon:
I do. And I just think, “Oh, gosh, if I could just help, then everything would be better.” But it really spoke to me that part of that book that was about actively listening as a friend, sitting in quiet, understanding, sitting next to someone, or hearing them, or really seeing them is so much more valuable. I just never saw anybody describe it that way and it was really a revelation to me.
Glennon Doyle:
Well it’s exciting to me that I taught Reese something about friendship because what the pod squad needs to know is Reese is known as being a very good friend.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
In the world. I don’t want to say a friend expert, I don’t know if she’d teach a class about it. It’s just that it feels to me like you have figured out how to maintain and show up over time and have friendship be a life giving force in your life over time. You have nailed that.
Reese Witherspoon:
I hope so.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Reese Witherspoon:
We should call one of my friends real quick.
Glennon Doyle:
We did. We vetted you.
Abby Wambach:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m joking.
Reese Witherspoon:
No, no, you didn’t. No, you didn’t. They’d probably be like, “You travel too much,” is what they’d say.
Glennon Doyle:
So I want to ask you, Reese, some questions about friendship because I’m 46 now and I’m trying to figure out friendship right now. I got sober. I became a mom. I haven’t explored or figured out the life giving force of friendship yet. And I’m not beating myself up about it, it’s just a new frontier for me.
Abby Wambach:
You also fell in love and so that was big for five years.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I’m slowly growing.
Abby Wambach:
But we know that that’s not sustainable, that it can’t just be us.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
We actually need life giving force from others.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. Abby’s like, “Dear, God, spread the love.”
Abby Wambach:
We both are. Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So I’m going to ask you some questions, Reese, and I just want you to pretend like I’m an alien who’s just landed on the planet and you’re trying to explain friendship to me because that is in fact what’s happening right now, okay? What is friendship, Reese?
Reese Witherspoon:
Friendship is so much, but it’s a deposit and a withdrawal system. I think about that a lot. You can’t take a withdrawal if you haven’t made a deposit.
Abby Wambach:
That’s really good.
Reese Witherspoon:
And I think about that a lot because I think people in my position, in you all’s position, it’s like there’s a lot of people who want to withdraw. There is. And people who have bright light or energy or caregivers, or are caretakers, they give, they give, they give, right? But you’ve got to make sure someone’s putting a deposit into your friendship. And then every once in a while, reevaluate. Is this more withdrawal than deposit? Where is the balance here?
Abby Wambach:
It’s so good. I think that this is what we’ve figured out over the last many years, our search for more friendship, we want to feel like friends are helping us also learn more about and explore more about the world, right? And I think that we’ve found a couple of friends here that are doing that. And now that we live in LA, it feels so wonderful.
Glennon Doyle:
Reese, how do you identify a person that you want to be a friend?
Reese Witherspoon:
Oh, isn’t that interesting? Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Because it’s like romantic love is different. It’s like, “Oh, feel the butterflies, something’s happening.”
Reese Witherspoon:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
What’s friendship butterflies?
Reese Witherspoon:
Gosh, I feel like it’s a very similar thing.
Glennon Doyle:
It is, right?
Reese Witherspoon:
I can look at a group of people and I just know the two or three people I’m supposed to get to know better. It doesn’t mean that we’re going to have this incredible connection, but I watch the way people interact with people, their use of language. I think it’s really important to me because I’m a words person looking at that, are they here to withdraw, or deposit, or stay neutral? This is a funny story, you all. I trained for this movie where I played a NCAA championship softball player. Don’t laugh.
Abby Wambach:
Nobody’s laughing.
Reese Witherspoon:
I had this really great coach. And she was a 12 time NCAA champion coach. And I thought well first of all, anybody who’s had coaching at that level, just the positivity that they put in these young athletes is incredible. I thought if I had that when I was 22.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Reese Witherspoon:
I wouldn’t have to read a hundred self-help books. I’ve read a hundred self-help books when I was 20, 22, 23. And she said something really smart about friendship. Her name is Coach Enquist, Sue Enquist. Do you know Coach Enquist? Yeah, she’s amazing. And she said, “Reese, you’re going to meet three different kinds of people in life. A third of the people are going to lift you up. They’re going to believe in your dreams. They’re going to encourage you. You’re going to encourage them. And a third of the people are going to be totally neutral. They’re just neutral. And you don’t care about them, they don’t care about you. No harm, no foul. And then the other third are going to try and drag you down actively, whether they know it consciously, unconsciously, they are here to pull people down. And they’re going to try and pull you down.” And she was like, “Avoid the bottom third.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Reese Witherspoon:
And I talk to my kids about it all the time about finding friendships that lift you up, see you, care about you, care about your children, care about your mom and your dad and your family, try and bring and attract those kind of people in your life and avoid those bottom third.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Reese Witherspoon:
Because they’re coming for you, man. They’re coming for your light and your energy.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It’s really good.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So when you find somebody who’s in that top third and you get the friendship butterflies, what do you do to make the first move?
Reese Witherspoon:
I have to be brave. And for me, being brave is just jumping. I imagine myself as a little kid jumping two feet in a cold pool and you know once you get in there, it’s not as cold as you thought it was.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Reese Witherspoon:
I also think about other people, must be terrifying to have to stand alone in a room or I think oh, I’m going to go say hi. Why not? What’s the worst thing that could happen? Or be vulnerable. I will tell you when I had no friends in Los Angeles, so I moved right after college. I stopped out of Stanford because I got this job and I moved into this apartment. I didn’t know anybody, I was 19-years-old, I had no friends. And my mom came to visit me. I go, “Mom, I have no friends.” And she’s like, “There’s a girl across the hallway.” I have to do it in her voice. “There’s a girl across the hallway and she’s about your age. And I think you should just go over there and you should just ask her if she wants to have some coffee.” And I was like, “Really?” She said, “Yeah.” So I knocked on her door.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God.
Reese Witherspoon:
And I was like, “Hi.” And she goes, “Hi.” I said, “Hi, I’m Reese.” I’m 19. She goes, “I’m 19 too. My name is Heather.” And I was like, “I don’t know anybody. I just stopped out of Stanford. I’m here by myself.” She goes, “I just stopped out of Berkeley.” I was like, “Oh, I’m working.” She’s like, “I’m working too.” I was like, “Do you want to get coffee?” She’s my best friend to this day.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Reese Witherspoon:
She’s my very best friend on planet earth.
Glennon Doyle:
I saw you do this recently. I saw her do it. We were in a little thing together. And the woman who was running the workshop said, “Pair up, find a partner.” People who say that, I just want to stick a fork in their eyeball. I just stood there for a second and Reese walked over to the person who was sitting by themselves and just grabbed her and said, “I want to be a partner.” I was like, “Yeah, of course she did.” Okay. So you pretend like you’re just jumping in the freezing cold pool.
Reese Witherspoon:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
To get through that initial resistance. Okay.
Reese Witherspoon:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
How do you-
Reese Witherspoon:
Half of my life is just jumping into a freezing cold pool. I think about all the things that you have to do to just get to there and then get to there and get to there. It’s like oh, I’ve done much scarier things than introduce myself.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That’s good. That’s good.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. How do you know that someone doesn’t just want to be friends with you because you’re famous?
Reese Witherspoon:
I don’t.
Glennon Doyle:
You don’t.
Abby Wambach:
That’s so cool to say, Reese, because that’s a very non-codependent thing to say.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
That’s like a, “It’s not my problem,” sort of thing. That’s so good.
Reese Witherspoon:
Wow, I hope I figure it out quickly. But I do have a really good group of girlfriends around who will say to me, “Hey, he just wants to be your friend because he’s trying to, I don’t know, write an article.” It becomes pretty apparent pretty quickly. Again, withdrawals, no deposits.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, that’s how. That’s how. Okay, that’s good.
Reese Witherspoon:
And also, you all, don’t you feel like you have such limited time? Friendship is this very important thing, but you’ve got to have friends who… First of all, be able to put them on your speed dial. They’d show up if your kid was sick. And then you have to be able to hang up the phone immediately and they don’t get their feelings hurt.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Reese Witherspoon:
I could go click and literally when you call them three days later, you just start talking about whatever you were talking about when you hung up the phone, right?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
We had a friend that they said if we are literally driving to your house for dinner and you need to call and cancel, we won’t ask questions, we’ll turn our car around and go home. So that’s the friendship that… And I was like, “Well this is wonderful.”
Glennon Doyle:
I was like, “Don’t say that to us.”
Abby Wambach:
You’re just giving Glennon cancellation out every time.
Glennon Doyle:
Reese, every time I make a plan with someone and I’m getting better because I’m working on friendship, but I just feel like it’s this game of chicken of who’s going to cancel first, and I’m trying to wait it out so the other person will cancel. So I get the moral high ground of not canceling, but I still don’t have to go. It’s that sweet spot.
Reese Witherspoon:
Maybe you just need friends to come to your house.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, for sure. We do and that’s what they do.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what they do. Okay. So what is needed to maintain a friendship, Reese? Because I used to think you just find someone you love and you’re like, “You’re my person,” and that’s it. And then you just don’t ever talk again. What is your friendship maintenance plan? What’s required?
Reese Witherspoon:
Oh, gosh. I think my friends are going to be like, “What is she going to say?” Random check-ins, not just your birthday, random check-ins like, “You’re on my mind. What’s going on? How are you, girl?” That’s my favorite kind of friend.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s good.
Reese Witherspoon:
And we don’t have to see each other. We don’t have to FaceTime, literally just a text. I like a voice memo too. I think making a lot of deposits, I keep saying this over and over again, it’s really on my brain a lot. I think I’m in an evaluation place because during the pandemic, I think everybody reevaluated everything during the pandemic, right? You reevaluated your job, you reevaluated your friendships, you reevaluated your relationship, your relationship with your children. I got two dogs.
Abby Wambach:
We got one extra. Yeah.
Reese Witherspoon:
So much behavior changed in such a short amount of time when you think about it, I moved and I have to be honest, I’ve been looking for friends in this new place I live and it’s hard. It’s really hard. Adult friendship is hard. So I just try and tell myself to be patient. And then of course, my husband goes out and he has a hundred people to hang out with. He has a standing Wednesday coffee and a Thursday night guy’s night. And I’m like, “How did you do that?”
Glennon Doyle:
How did he do that?
Reese Witherspoon:
We should get him here, he’s the best friend ever.
Glennon Doyle:
Aww.
Abby Wambach:
I just wonder if the barometer for friendship and the requirement for friendship for men might be just slightly-
Glennon Doyle:
Lower.
Abby Wambach:
Lower. Actually, we’re just going to get together and watch a sports game or whatever.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Interesting.
Abby Wambach:
Not to belittle men here who are listening, but I actually-
Glennon Doyle:
We’re looking for something that’s magic match-
Abby Wambach:
More meaningful and more deep. I don’t know.
Reese Witherspoon:
Or fun. We get out of the house for a minute, I just want to have some fun.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Reese Witherspoon:
And then we can run back to my house. It’s a lot of pressure. It’s pressure.
Glennon Doyle:
Have you ever had to end a friendship? Because Reese, I feel like one of the things that’s scary about friendship is for marriage, I know how to get divorced.
Abby Wambach:
Please don’t say that.
Glennon Doyle:
There’s a pattern. There’s a structure for breakup, but there’s no structure for breakup for friendship. And sometimes friendships do need to end if they become unhealthy or they’re all withdrawn, no deposit. Have you ever had to break up with a friend and how did you do it?
Reese Witherspoon:
Well I’ve had to break up with friends and in full candor, I’ve handled it really poorly and I think I’ve handled it really well. So it’s usually probably my age. I was terrible at it when I was in my twenties, even my thirties, I drift away because I’m busy and I’m busy a lot, right? But that’s not fair. I think it’s not fair. It’s important to be clear with people. And I haven’t always been clear with people. But as I’ve gotten older, I try harder to be very, very clear and succinct and without putting any spin or shame on it. And I think I have to have boundaries, I guess, you have to have boundaries, right?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
And in your twenties, you’re like, “Whatever, I don’t have any boundaries.” In your thirties, you’re like, “Ooh, I’m learning what boundaries are.” And then in your forties, you start I think actually establishing, especially with friendship because we don’t have any time. You’ve got kids, you’ve got your jobs. When I want to get with my friends, that is a slice of special time.
Glennon Doyle:
And the clarity is a beautiful thing. Just the not drifting and being clear with people is a gift you can give them because it causes discomfort on your part in the moment, but less pain probably on the other part in the long run.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Because the slow fade is torturous.
Reese Witherspoon:
Yeah, it’s not cool. And I have to be honest, I don’t feel good about some of the friendships that in my twenties I drifted away from because I didn’t know how to have the conversation.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Reese Witherspoon:
I just didn’t know how to do it.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I want to switch gears. I think that you and I, and Glennon too, but I think that in the sports world and in Hollywood, there’s the old boys club. And you’ve experienced it and you’ve somehow not only survived it, but you’ve been able to thrive. How did you experience the old boys club first of all in Hollywood?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. What’s it like? Good times?
Reese Witherspoon:
Well I started when I was 14, so I just felt so lucky to get a shot. When you have a dream and then you get a chance, you’ll do anything. I would do anything to have that shot at a movie. I would stay up all night, whatever they said, “Work all night, don’t sleep, or come in the next day three hours later,” and I would do anything because it was my dream to be an actor and a storyteller. To that end, I think I endured some stuff that really wasn’t appropriate and I know it wasn’t appropriate. And as a kid, I didn’t fully understand because the grownups in charge told me it was okay. Now that I’m older and I look back on it, I think God, I was part of a system that had no rules. And still a lot of entertainment industry doesn’t have a lot of rules. There’s some really loose stuff going on.
Reese Witherspoon:
And I think what I did with that and those memories, because they came up for me around 2017 really strongly around all the cases that came out, and I don’t even want to say these people’s names because they don’t deserve us to say their names, but who abuse women in my industry. And I got so charged by it and I think I’d already started Hello Sunshine. So somewhere underneath, I was already like I have to leave this business a better place than the way I found it because I don’t want the next young Reese to have to go through what I went through. I want her to feel safe. Just because she wants to be an actress, doesn’t mean she deserves to be treated poorly, talked down to, sublimated, paid less and told that she doesn’t matter. And to shut up, shut up and be quiet was a lot of what we were told.
Reese Witherspoon:
During 2017 when Times Up started, I actually started sitting in circles with women who had done what I… Frequently we’re the only woman on set. And especially for a lot of us who came up in the nineties, I was the only girl on set a lot of the time and a little girl too. I’d have a caregiver, but rehearsals and things would happen. And I got to sit with other women who had similar experiences and it was such a healing moment for me to know that all of them had felt that way. All of them had been treated that way. And collectively, we weren’t going to do it anymore. We were going to stand up for people and we were going to lock arms with each other and we were going to protect women in our industry and other industries. And that was a really meaningful time for me, 2017, when we all went to the Golden Globes and wore black.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Reese Witherspoon:
Because we know that the majority of the money that’s made off of the red carpet photos is off of the women and their dresses and their clothes. It was a sign of solidarity, it was a sign of understanding and it was also just this sign that we were all talking to each other.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. The siloing was over.
Reese Witherspoon:
There’s nowhere to hide anymore. And I’ve had girls call me and say, “I need to talk to you about something that happened over here on this. I need you to call this person, that person.” And we do it. And I do want to say something, there were incredible male allies. They didn’t come forward, they didn’t make it about them, they didn’t put a badge on themselves, they just did really, really impactful things behind the scenes and I will be forever grateful.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so good to hear.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. And what you just said, Reese, at the beginning of this answer for me actually changed my life and I have to just point it out is I’ve carried a lot of shame with me in terms of my alignment at times with the good old boys club, because that was part of survival in the late nineties, early 2000s. And I’ve carried some shame with me and you said it was your dream and you would do anything to follow your dream and achieve your dream. And that is what I was doing. And I’ve been holding myself with this shame around me feeling like, “Oh, I was misaligned.” So I just want to thank you for that. That was really healing for me.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s the ugliness of it. They know that these people have dreams and they leverage it.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Right?
Reese Witherspoon:
Well also, someone’s bad behavior doesn’t get to steal your dream.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Reese Witherspoon:
One bad system doesn’t get to stop you from becoming Abby Wambach.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Reese Witherspoon:
You don’t get to stop me.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Reese Witherspoon:
You don’t get to make the rules of my life.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Reese Witherspoon:
And if I have to quietly work inside a system that does not make room for me to be a leader, there was room for me to be a white blonde lady in a movie.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Reese Witherspoon:
But was there room for me to be a leader? I wouldn’t say when I started, no. And then to step into a little more power, a little more… I have trouble with the word power, but a little more responsibility, a little more leadership, the ability to control my own material, to give thoughtful filmmakers and female writers an opportunity to tell their story in their own words, you can’t take that from me. Just because your system doesn’t allow it, I’ll make it happen. I mean I feel lucky that in this lifetime, honestly I can’t believe it happens. Sometimes I pinch myself, it makes me want to cry. When we sold Hello Sunshine, I just sobbed, you all, I just sobbed and sobbed because it wasn’t about the money. I didn’t need that, right? For me it was women matter.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Reese Witherspoon:
And women’s stories matter.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Reese Witherspoon:
And that’s my life mission, right? It’s not about me needing an award or a thing. I mean they’re all very nice, I really appreciate them. But what my life work is, when my life purpose lined up with my work and suddenly I was doing this work that changed other women’s lives and I got calls that were like, “I could afford a house for the first time in my life and my kid’s going to college, I have economic stability,” because you picked my book club book, that’s the stuff, you all, where I pinch myself and I think I am so lucky on this earth to be able to take what I was given and then just move it over there, right?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I mean luck is one thing, you’re also a business mogul. You’re just such a badass and you are a leader in not just Hollywood, but the business world. It’s amazing.
Reese Witherspoon:
Well thank you, honey.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ve seen people’s lives actually, I’ve gotten texts from people with pictures of their home.
Abby Wambach:
Their keys to their home.
Glennon Doyle:
That they got because of your book club. I’ve actually seen that in real life happen. For the pod squad, it’s such a different thing to be an actor, which is an incredible thing, but someone else is producing it. Someone else is controlling the story. Someone else is doing the whole thing. And then to say, “No, no, I want to be part of the creation of that.” Reese, because we have the way that boys club works when it’s overt abuse and then the unsiloing of women, which I think it’s so cool. It’s just like your mommy and me yoga class.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like you’re alone and then friendship. I’m starting to understand why friendship has been so important to you. How does it manifest when now you’re at the table? Because that’s different. When you are trying to be now one of the power players, because I actually love the word power, I think when people like you get power, it’s a very good thing, how does it manifest in your life now?
Reese Witherspoon:
That’s such a good question. I sit sometimes in those board meetings, those tables and I watch the way people behave. I think in my twenties, I would’ve tried to emulate their behavior, but now I bring myself to it. And I think there’s a reason I’m there, that I was uniquely chosen to be there at this moment in time. And that my perspective as a woman, as a mom, as a consumer of media matters. The way I watch my teenagers and what they’re interested in versus what a boardroom full of people think is important. Women just inherently have this incredible knowledge base, right? But we’re not empowered to use it in the right way. We’re certainly not chosen to be on boards and to run companies. And if we are, the glare of the spotlight is so harsh and so difficult first, female CEOs and women in the C-suite, it’s tough. But I think I’m going to show up with my whole self and hopefully create value for everybody here, but also create space for more women to sit in these seats.
Glennon Doyle:
And do it as you.
Reese Witherspoon:
But it’s not what I thought I’d be doing, I never thought I’d be doing this. I didn’t grow up in the corporate world, I’m an actor, learn lines. But I’ve been in the business for 30 years and I’ve watched what works. I know what stories work. I can read a book and I can tell you that’s a good movie, that’s not going to be a movie. And I can tell you exactly which studios will buy it and who’s not interested. And I can say, “Okay, that’s going to be a TV show, that’s a movie, that’s a podcast.” I just know from copious amounts of reading and understanding and analyzing the business.
Reese Witherspoon:
I don’t think I felt empowered until I met my husband. And I was so frustrated about women not having better parts and better scripts. And he’s like, “Babe, you read more than anybody I know. Literally, you tear through books. Why don’t you just buy some of them and start developing them?” And I was like, “I guess I can.” And I said, “Should I do it with studios?” No, self-fund yourself. He just gave me incredible amounts of support, but also business acumen. Half the time I say stuff that he says, I’m sure everybody-
Glennon Doyle:
We do that too. I do that too. Yeah.
Reese Witherspoon:
But I can see it between you all too. I mean even when, Abby, the Wolfpack speech, I was like, “Oh, stuff in there feels like Glennon, but then that’s so Abby.” And I love that speech. The metaphors in it are so beautiful. And I think great partnership is about what you pull from each other, what you love about your person, what they see in you you don’t see in yourself.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Reese Witherspoon:
And I’m telling you, he is my number one fan. He’s like, “You go get them, babe.” Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
When you talk about, “I didn’t know I would be doing this,” but I’m thinking about your mom and when you were little and you had anxiety when you were little.
Reese Witherspoon:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And I read somewhere that your mom, your mom’s a nurse.
Reese Witherspoon:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Back then, I know because we were going through mental health stuff at the same time, probably as teenagers, that mental health was so stigmatized back then. But your mom said, “No, no, no, we don’t ignore this. We go at things. We go at things.” So that’s in your blood, going at things, right?
Reese Witherspoon:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Would you say that? What are you going at right now?
Reese Witherspoon:
Oh.
Glennon Doyle:
The whole freaking world she’s going at.
Reese Witherspoon:
No. I haven’t really told anybody, but I made a pact with myself not to film anything for nine months.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Reese Witherspoon:
And that’s really hard for me. And I know that sounds like, “Oh, nine months,” that’s really hard for me. I have a very busy brain. I like to have that sense of accomplishment. I like to be on set. My girlfriend goes, “I really like it when you’re not doing acting and filming.” And I was like, “But I love it.” She was like, “No, I know you like to do what you do,” but it has been a challenge for me. But it was a challenge where I wanted to get quiet and you can’t find your next steps forward when you’re racing around and making yourself busy and not giving your space to think about who am I? What do I want next? What does the next chapter of my life look like? It’s huge. I feel like I have time and space to do it. And a lot of times when I feel uncomfortable, I just go to work.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Reese Witherspoon:
And I’ve got to not do that. I’ve got to not do that.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
When I was transitioning from soccer to this life, a friend said, “Think of it like going and watching a trapeze person. They’re swinging from rung to rung. And where you are right now is you’re just holding on to each rung,” because I was really struggling to let go of my past and I was really scared to step into a future, an unknown. She said, “You’re just holding on to each rung.” She said, “But why do people go and watch trapeze artists do their thing?” She said, “It’s to see what happens in the middle because that’s where the magic is.” And I was like, “Oh, shit.” So I let go of both rungs. And I was like, “Okay.”
Glennon Doyle:
And then I was like, “Hi, I’m Glennon.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Reese Witherspoon:
But didn’t you put your arms up in the air?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes I did, Reese, I did lose my shit. I did.
Reese Witherspoon:
I love your dorky self. It makes me so happy because I’m just such a huge dork. When I love people, it comes out of my face, out of my body, out of my arms. I explode with joy and love for people. And it’s a lot, it’s a lot to deal with.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you feel that? Do you feel that a lotness, too muchness? Because I have a theory that everybody either thinks they’re not enough or too much. I’ve never met a woman who’s like, “Yes, I believe I am the correct amount.” What the hell is that? I don’t know.
Reese Witherspoon:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
I kind of do.
Reese Witherspoon:
Exactly. I think I’m too much.
Glennon Doyle:
Too much. You’re too much.
Reese Witherspoon:
Too much for people to deal with. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Well I have been. I think that I’m the right amount.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God. Of course you’re the one.
Abby Wambach:
I feel like I’ve come into a sense of maturity. When I was playing soccer, I was too much.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
But now that I stopped interrupting people so much, I’m feeling like I’m better.
Glennon Doyle:
Well I want to be clear, I don’t think women or any woman are actually too much or not enough. I just think that’s the structure we’re given.
Reese Witherspoon:
Exactly. Please say that again.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. No woman is too much or not enough.
Reese Witherspoon:
Why are we told that? That was Untamed for me was this unlocking of all of the constructs that don’t hold water for me anymore. This idea of the perfect woman or the perfect, yet showing up in society with everything that is weighing down on us is just crushing. You understand why women are burned out and tired and don’t feel appreciated because we’re always told we’re not enough. I think we’re always told we’re not enough or sit down and shut up.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. That’s right. It’s very convenient to decide that every woman is one or the other.
Reese Witherspoon:
But Abby, let me ask you this. You never get in a conversation with somebody, you have a heated argument with somebody or a really passionate argument and you never sleek away going, “God, I wish I hadn’t said all that.”
Abby Wambach:
I don’t have postmortem remorse about conversations.
Reese Witherspoon:
What?
Glennon Doyle:
It’s all I have. It’s all I do.
Abby Wambach:
We actually talk about this a lot.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m already thinking right now about the things during this hour I wish I didn’t say, that’s all I do.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. But I think that part of this has to do with, I have gotten male privilege because of the way I present through my life and because of sports. So I have a sense of male privilege that maybe you both, because the way you present and the way that you’ve been received in the world, it just might be slightly different.
Glennon Doyle:
So that’s interesting.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I think that’s interesting.
Glennon Doyle:
So you obviously played the iconic role of Elle Woods. And I mean everybody knows Elle Woods, but because of Elle’s beauty and popularity and femininity-
Abby Wambach:
From Legally Blonde, just to-
Glennon Doyle:
Right, from Legally Blonde, she was constantly assumed to be not smart enough, not serious enough, not powerful enough to be at the table she earned her way to. And I think about this a lot because misogyny is one of the most powerful forces in our world and in our country for sure. And there’s a special slice of misogyny that’s reserved inside of people for women who are very feminine. So do you, Reese Witherspoon, relate to Elle Woods’ plight?
Reese Witherspoon:
Yeah. I think there’s a million reasons why she resonates with people, right? Her drive, her ambition, her determination beyond what people thought of her. But I don’t think there’s a person on earth who hasn’t felt underestimated. It was really important to me as we were building that story that we have this scene with her mom and dad where her dad says, “Honey, you can’t go to law school. That’s for boring people, boring, ugly people.” And then her boyfriend dumps her and says, “What are you doing here? You don’t belong here.” Everyone has felt that need to prove yourself, to value yourself. I still think about that movie and how it stands alone in a genre.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, it does.
Reese Witherspoon:
And it’s odd. It’s really odd, right, that there haven’t been more films about a woman with ambition accomplishing something. Well then I look at Tracy Flick, which is the other side of that, right?
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. Yes.
Reese Witherspoon:
And she’s reviled for being ambitious, right? One is perceived as stupid and one is perceived as a shrew or overly ambitious. But it’s interesting. I mean there’s a whole spectrum of female behavior that we haven’t seen on film really because women aren’t telling the stories. I don’t know, I love Elle Woods for what she brings to people. Can I tell you one funny story?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Reese Witherspoon:
So I got divorced, I was about 31 or 32. I was in that weird state after my divorce where I was like floating. Who am I? Where am I?
Glennon Doyle:
I know it.
Reese Witherspoon:
I had two little kids and I was like, “Oh, what am I doing?” And I got called for jury duty.
Glennon Doyle:
God. Enough is enough. Enough is enough.
Reese Witherspoon:
I go to jury duty. I’m thinking, “They’re not going to pick me. Why would they pick me?” Goes to the first day and they ask me all these questions and they’re like, “No, juror number 11, sit back down. You need to stay.” I’m like, “Stay? Okay.” And then I’m like, “Okay.” And then I’m on the phone crying to my girlfriend and they’re like, “Juror number 11, you’ve been selected for the jury.” Oh my God. It was a five day trial.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Reese Witherspoon:
I was there every day from eight o’clock to three o’clock, a little break at lunch with all my fellow jurors. And we went on the last day into deliberations to decide whether or not this woman was guilty of this crime. And they said, “Well we have to pick a foreman for the jury.”
Glennon Doyle:
Of course.
Reese Witherspoon:
And literally all of them turned and pointed at me and said, “You’re going to be the foreman.” And I said, “Me? Why am I going to the foreman?” They said, “Because you’re a lawyer.”
Glennon Doyle:
No, no.
Abby Wambach:
I knew exactly where this was going.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Abby Wambach:
Elle Woods is in the room. Elle Woods is on the jury.
Glennon Doyle:
My God.
Reese Witherspoon:
But let me tell you something, it made me think if you could call for jury duty, you better show up because if any one of us is on trial, you want nice thoughtful people in those juries.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Reese Witherspoon:
Because people did not understand the law. And I only knew enough about the law from being Elle Woods that I was like, “No, no, no, you don’t get to say guilty or innocent, you have to say if the lawyer proved it or not.” One of them goes, “She looks guilty.”
Abby Wambach:
No.
Reese Witherspoon:
I was like, “That’s not how this works.”
Glennon Doyle:
Well that’s my favorite story of the entire year.
Abby Wambach:
That’s amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
And also, Reese, it’s so important to have stories on-
Abby Wambach:
Television.
Glennon Doyle:
TV.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Because those people in that jury saw you as a leader because they had seen you as a leader on television. We don’t even-
Abby Wambach:
Even if they were wrong in some way.
Glennon Doyle:
Just the images of women in power. They’re like, “Elle can do it.” What? It’s hard, jury duty?
Reese Witherspoon:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Reese Witherspoon:
Guys, I’m not even kidding how many letters I get from girls to say, “I went to law school because of you.”
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Reese Witherspoon:
In other countries. I went to this thing in Washington, D.C. and it was 200 female judges from around the world. And we were all speaking in front of them. It was so moving and emotional that I gave a speech and they were clapping so much. And these girls came over and they were from China, these 10 girls, and they said, “We went to law school because of you.” And I was like that’s amazing the power of media and film.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Reese Witherspoon:
That’s why every time I get tired, when people say, “Oh, you’re so busy, you’re so busy,” we’re making up for thousands of lost stories.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Reese Witherspoon:
Years and years of our stories not being told.
Abby Wambach:
So good.
Reese Witherspoon:
When I look at my friend Ava DuVernay, or Mindy Kaling, or Tracee Ellis Ross, or Kerry Washington, and we are working our tails off.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Reese Witherspoon:
Just to get these stories on film because we’re making up for lost time and lost stories. And I think it’s going to be amazing to see what the next generation feels inspired because there’s been a lot of paths cut just in these past 10 years.
Glennon Doyle:
And the way you tell the stories, because when I’m thinking about Elle and her rise to power, one of the most important parts of that story was her female friends in that story. I mean you and Selma Blair who were supposed to hate each other and then came together, or I’m taking the dog, the friendships, we say that once a week. Somebody comes into the kitchen, picks up Honey and goes, “I’m taking the dog.” Anyway.
Reese Witherspoon:
How much do we love Jennifer Coolidge?
Abby Wambach:
Oh, get out of here. She’s a family fave for sure.
Glennon Doyle:
You’ve got these months where you’re going to sit with your self.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so wise because if we don’t get into quiet, we don’t get into creative mode. We’re just in reactive mode, right?
Reese Witherspoon:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Uncomfortable. What are you going to do? We always have a next right thing. So in these last couple minutes that we have together, what do you do during your downtime that is nourishing for you? Because I love your friend that said she doesn’t love you acting because that means she loves you for you.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Right? She doesn’t-
Reese Witherspoon:
So sweet.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so sweet. So what is nourishing and life giving for Reese, not work Reese?
Abby Wambach:
And do you like this time or you hate it? What’s going on inside?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Reese Witherspoon:
It depends on the day. Sometimes I’m really bored. It’s okay, I haven’t been bored in a long time. But one thing that has just given me pure joy and energy is I paint with my mom on Tuesday mornings. She has this little group of… They’re 80, between 75 and 80-years-old, there’s five of them, and they do watercolors. And for three hours, no one looks at their phone. They literally just eat cookies, have coffee and do watercolors. And it’s a delight.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
I love that. I love your mom. Just freaking love you and your mom.
Reese Witherspoon:
I mean she’s the love of my life. That’s why I did Wild, it was all about her mother being the love of her life. And my mother is just the greatest love.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh God. With that, Reese Witherspoon, thank you for being even more you behind the scenes than you are in front of the scenes. You’re just a love bug. And thanks for being out there doing the hard things. Thanks for telling women’s stories. Thanks for caring. Go be with your family. We’re grateful for you.
Reese Witherspoon:
I love you guys. Thank you for saying that and I love you guys so much, honestly. Every time I see you, I just have joy bursting out of my face, just allow me to hug you.
Abby Wambach:
Same with us.
Reese Witherspoon:
Thank you. Thank you for making me feel brave and seen.
Glennon Doyle:
Same.
Abby Wambach:
Well thank you for paving a certain path that will last for hundreds, hundreds of years, forever. You’re making women’s life, not just in Hollywood, but women’s life in production, in business, in private equity, the deal that you were able to come to with Hello Sunshine is life changing for women in every industry because they can see that it’s possible.
Glennon Doyle:
Precedent setting. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Reese, you are a friend. You’re our inspiration. We love you. And thank you for being with us today.
Glennon Doyle:
And the rest of you, don’t forget this week when life gets hard, Reese says we can do hard things, okay? We’ll catch you back here soon. Bye. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn’t, don’t worry about it. It’s fine.