Natalie Portman: How to Know When to Say YES
July 7, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome friends, back to, We Can Do Hard Things, today.
Abby Wambach:
My boss is here.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, Abby’s boss is here.
Abby Wambach:
Just going to call her boss.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, that’s right. I was like, “Me?”
Glennon Doyle:
I know. That’s what I thought. Me? Obviously I’m here. No. Natalie Portman. She’s Abby’s boss because she’s the big boss of angel city.
Abby Wambach:
She’s big boss.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. The soccer team. Angel City of which Natalie Portman is the big boss. I’m your little boss.
Abby Wambach:
I’m little boss. She’s big boss.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. So big boss is here today, Natalie Portman. Natalie Portman is an academy award winning actress, director, author, and activist. This summer, Portman will be on the big screen returning to the Marvel universe as Jane Foster in Thor: Love and Thunder. Natalie appeared in Jackie, in which she starred as first lady Jacqueline F. Kennedy, and was nominated for an academy award, a golden globe, a Screen Actor’s Guild Award, a BAFTA award, and won the Critic’s Choice Award. Portman devotes her time to several humanitarian causes with an emphasis on supporting women and girls. She’s also a founder of National Women’s Soccer League Team, Angel City Football Club. Woot woot.
Abby Wambach:
Woot woot.
Glennon Doyle:
Her book, Natalie Portman’s Fables, is a New York Times best seller. Portman is a Harvard graduate, with a degree in psychology, and she studied at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Natalie, welcome to, We Can Do Hard Things. We wanted to start with the story about Abby’s speech, Time’s Up, and your reaction to it, and how that played into your formation of Angel City. Can you just tell us that story from your perspective?
Natalie Portman:
Well, thank you both for having me on. I love you both so, so much. You’ve both added so much to my life already, so I’m so grateful to know you. I can’t believe I know you as well as have you as my role models, but I think there’s an even earlier Abby influence story on Time’s Up that you might not even be aware of, was that your Wolf Pack speech at Barnard was circulated among all the women very early on, and everyone started calling each other Wolf Pack within our group in Time’s Up. That was probably why they wanted you to speak in the first place at our conference, that was already so influential and impressive I think, just as just a way of thinking of other women, and a new way of operating with other women, I think after having been socialized for so long to see competition and different kinds of modeling of behavior between women, a way that we could compete together instead of against each other, was pretty exciting.
Natalie Portman:
And then when I heard you speak, and we all heard you speak at the Time’s Up conference that year, it was mind blowing to hear your experiences as virtuoso star best athlete in your field, in the world, and your experiences when you retired, of being uncertain about your future and how different that was for your male counterparts. And to understand that this very central cultural field athletics I guess in general, could have such different valuing of male and female players, really just blew my mind and really started me and a lot of other people thinking. Anyway, thank you again for that. I said it before and I’ll keep saying it forever, but it really changed so many of the way many of us have looked at the world.
Abby Wambach:
Well, and then two years ago, I get this random IG direct message from Natalie Portman, folks. She says, “Can I call you?” And I’m like, “Yes, Natalie Portman. Here’s my number.” And so then you call me, and then you told me two years ago, and this must have been a year-ish later since the Time’s Up event. And you tell me that you’re starting Angel City FC, in Los Angeles, and you ask me to be a part of the Investor Ownership Group. I just was floored. I was so beyond. I just think it’s so important for people to understand, though that this is the first majority women own soccer franchise for girls, obviously, and women, you also started it for boys. Can you tell us about that?
Natalie Portman:
Yeah. Well, my son who’s 11 now, was an incredible influence and inspiration in wanting to create this. He got so into the women’s world cup. I think he was around seven or eight and he had the experience, and he was five or six at the men’s world cup, when France won. My husband’s French, so it was the greatest thing that could ever happen to a French child.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Natalie Portman:
And then a couple years later, the US women, when the women’s world cup. I mean, it was waking up in the middle of the night, all hours. I had to confront my own bias, because the first time I saw him put on a women’s game, I was like, “Oh God, he’s going to realize it’s a women’s game.” Because it was all on… I think it was Fubo or something that has all the soccer games. And it just says, “France versus Germany.” I was like, “He’s not going to realize that it’s women. He’s going to realize it’s women, he’s going to turn it off.” He was like, “Amazing. The best players in the world.” Totally. Of course, did not matter at all to him.
Natalie Portman:
I was like, “Oh, this is my weird stuff from the way I grew up, that I’m putting onto it.” And of course he does. He loves soccer. He wants to see the best players in the world. If it’s a bad game, he’ll turn it off. If it’s a men’s game or a women’s game. If it’s a great game, he will watch it in the most participatory heart-filled way. That’s when I was like, “Oh, every kid should have the opportunity to see players of all genders be virtuosic.” What a dream to get to identify with, idolize people from all backgrounds, from all genders, and made me be like, “Oh, this needs more amplification. Why does the world cup get this kind of amplification? And then National Women’s League games don’t get the same kind of amplification.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And that teaches little boys not to respect girls in insidious ways. When they watch people who are women achieve at things that they love, it helps early on even the playing field of how we perceive each other.
Natalie Portman:
Well, I think also we know that as girls growing up, we’ve been asked to get excited by and identify with and idolize male athletes. That seems totally possible. I could grow up thinking that Michael Jordan was great, and I was never like, “I can’t do that because we’re not the same gender.” So why not have the converse be true? It doesn’t make any sense.
Amanda Doyle:
You said that girls know their power. We need the boys to know it. It’s like, “We’re not trying to empower girls so much as we’re trying to stop the world from getting in the way of girls’ power.”
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Natalie Portman:
Okay. Well put.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, that’s good. Before we move on from the soccer, I just do have to say, that that day that you called Abby, I have never in the history of our marriage sat with you so stunned. I don’t know if you know how much it meant personally, because she went through the ranks. All of the men, that’s their dream afterwards, is to own a team. That’s the path. That’s what you do, but the women didn’t even allow themselves to dare that. To have that be part of her life, I mean, it’s part of the reason we moved to LA. It has been heart shifting and life shifting for Abby and the other women.
Abby Wambach:
Well, it made me feel a little bit like I didn’t dream big enough in some ways, because here, Natalie Portman shows up with this whole idea bubble that completely opened my mind to the rest of my life. So it’s not just this. It’s like, “Wait, I think I’ve been thinking…” And by the way, I’m the dreamer of all dreamers.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes-
Abby Wambach:
Maybe I’ve been thinking a little bit too small about my life. Maybe there are other places. I just think that sometimes it’s really important that we show up for each other. What people don’t understand is, the way that Natalie wants to operate this majority owned women’s team, is she wants to put women at the center. You offered ownership stakes to this team, to the other women that have built women’s soccer in the United States. Nobody does that. You ask me and my former teammates. There’s 11 or 12 of us that are part owners of Angel City FC, because you wanted to pay respect in some ways, to these women who actually helped build women’s soccer to where it is. You are big boos.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s good stuff, Natalie.
Abby Wambach:
You’re a big boss.
Natalie Portman:
Thank you for saying that. I mean, it’s really built on you and your teammate’s shoulders. I mean, you all started it. Your passion and dedication to it grew the sport, made it as exciting as it is today. Started the fight for women’s fair pay in the field. It’s all of your work and dedication. We’re like late comers who are like, “Oh, they all did all this really awesome stuff. Let’s be part of this.” It’s also I think taking the experts who have built it, your leadership and your knowledge and expertise as our guiding light. I think you know it’s been a big learning experience I think for all of us in so many different ways. Rapid in some ways and slow in other ways, but definitely we rely on you and on our current players, the players for the team also. I think there’s so much leadership and knowledge that we’re gaining, and that’s the center of it all.
Abby Wambach:
It just also goes to show women in leadership positions, and how they choose to start franchises or businesses. They don’t forget how they got there. To me, that is an elemental part of starting the culture of something that can last for hopefully hundreds of years. I’m just so grateful to you, big boss.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s competing together, what you just said.
Natalie Portman:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
I love that competing together, instead of competing with each other. Natalie, this podcast is called, We Can Do Hard Things. What is hard for you in your life right now?
Natalie Portman:
Everything.
Amanda Doyle:
Perfect.
Natalie Portman:
Is that vague enough? Wow. I find everything so challenging, but I try to pretend that it’s easy. I mean, Abby, what you were saying about, I didn’t even think that dream was possible. I feel like maybe my heroic flaw is that I don’t realize how big stuff is that I take on sometimes, or how unprepared or unknowledgeable I am, which I’m grateful for, because I think I do try things that are too hard for me, and that I’m not really capable of, and that I have to meet the challenge or fail and get over it really quickly. But I’m learning that it’s something that’s unusual to me, that I’m like, “Oh sure, I’m basically a ballerina.” And then I get there. I’m like, “Oh, shit. I don’t know anything about this.”
Natalie Portman:
And I’m like, “Oh, got to figure this out somehow. Got to figure out how to fake it.” Similarly like, “Yeah, let’s do a soccer team.” And then I’m like, “Oh I don’t know anything about anything. I’m making mistakes on every front.” I guess that’s part of it is, not knowing that it’s going to be okay if you fail, unless you’re like a heart surgeon, then not okay. Not okay to fail. And then also maybe a little ignorance is bliss for taking on hard things.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I love that. You have the idea of just showing up and saying yes before you’ve decided you’re completely qualified, which is a huge
Amanda Doyle:
That’s behaving like a man.
Natalie Portman:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s dude moves.
Natalie Portman:
Dude moves.
Amanda Doyle:
Dude moves.
Glennon Doyle:
Obsessed. Okay. All right.
Natalie Portman:
You don’t have qualifications.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Abby Wambach:
That’s it.
Natalie Portman:
You’ll figure it out.
Amanda Doyle:
Basically a ballerina.
Glennon Doyle:
I know some things.
Abby Wambach:
Those are big boss moves.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, that’s right. Okay. We want to talk about some of the cages you fought and are fighting your way out of, which are common to so many of us. One of them is people pleasing. You said that the messaging to you as a young woman, as it was for many of us, was to focus on making yourself attractive, and pleasing other people, as opposed to focusing on what you want. How did you break out of that cage of people pleasing? Or how do you still? Because I assume it’s a daily thing, right? Is it?
Natalie Portman:
Oh yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Natalie Portman:
Oh yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Natalie Portman:
And it’s actually been something really amazing that Kara Norman, is one of my co-founders at angel city, has influenced a lot because she introduced me to an executive coach, because that’s one of those roles that I took on that I was so unprepared for. One of the big things that I work on with her is… she actually talks about personality types. And my type is very, very much about caring a lot about pleasing people. It was first of all, interesting for me to understand that everyone operates in different ways and that might not be a universal motivating factor for everybody. I think a lot of it has to be remembering and relearning how to recognize your own desires, because when you’re pleasing, it’s very hard to distinguish between what other people want. You get really good at reading other people’s minds.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Natalie Portman:
And that’s one thing which the coach that I work with, her name is Diana, says. Remember that’s also your superpower, so that you don’t just hate it about yourself. You’re really good at knowing what other people want, and that’s an asset, and use it and speak up about it when you know that. And then also paying attention. She calls it a full body yes. She has great meditations about it. Her organization’s called conscious leadership, and I highly recommend it. They have some publicly available meditations about thinking about something that you have a whole body yes to, and feeling it in your body and what that feels like. And then thinking about something that was a whole body no. And feeling what that feels like in your body and naming where that is in your body and recognizing that. And then also something that’s in the middle, no. And understanding what that feels like in your body. And then going for things that are whole body yeses. It’s a physical experience, and practicing what’s the physical experience of yes, I completely want this. And no, I completely do not want this, and those in between situations, which I think is the biggest thing, when you are very aware of other people’s…
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Natalie Portman:
… desires for you.
Amanda Doyle:
Have you been able to use that outside of your executive role? Have you been able to use that in your personal… the whole full body thing?
Natalie Portman:
I think it’s almost more in personal life than in executive life… executive, I’m like, “I don’t what anyone wants for me.” I don’t know what I-
Amanda Doyle:
It’s full body. I don’t know.
Natalie Portman:
I’m like, “Full body. No idea-
Glennon Doyle:
Full body eh? Out of body.
Abby Wambach:
Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s out of body.
Natalie Portman:
Well, with personal, I have more experience. I have 40 years experience of what everyone wants for me and understanding what everyone wants me to do.
Glennon Doyle:
I think it’s so important though, because I think when we try to think about what we want or what we don’t want or what we think about something, we always go to our mind to try to figure it out. But what we have discovered again and again, is that it’s never there. We do that full body thing, but we call it what feels warm or what feels cold, or what feels big, or what feels clichy.
Amanda Doyle:
These are very expert words.
Natalie Portman:
No, but it’s great to put it in any kind of physical terms, because also that’s objective experience.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Natalie Portman:
Whereas thoughts and feelings are so subjective and confusing, but physical experiences feels good, doesn’t feel good.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Natalie Portman:
I have a friend who’s a writer. She calls it… she wants to be more like her dog.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Natalie Portman:
Where she’s like, “Person’s nice, I go towards. Person not nice, go back away.”
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Natalie Portman:
It really is relying on your instincts.
Abby Wambach:
The body knows.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. The body doesn’t lie. And it’s not like a dog is like, “Oh, but I want that person to think I’m sweet.” Or, “I don’t want to hurt that person’s feeling.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Natalie Portman:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
Also, dogs will bite. And I think if we would bite a little bit more, people would treat us better.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Natalie Portman:
Or they’d muzzle us.
Glennon Doyle:
What was your last full body yes?
Natalie Portman:
Last full body yes. Good question. I was just away from my kids a couple days working. And when I saw them, it was just so like, all I wanted to do was hug them and that was very full… oh my gosh. There was just pure desire.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. Ever since I heard what Aronofsky told you during Black Swan, I’ve been saying it to myself over and over. Do you know what I’m referring to?
Natalie Portman:
I’m wondering if it’s the, do one for yourself.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Natalie Portman:
Is that what you’re…
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. Can you tell that story? Because I’ve been saying it to myself, and may tattoo it on my body.
Natalie Portman:
Oh, I’m so happy. It’s a great direction. I try and remind myself too when I’m working especially, but when you’re shooting something, you do so many takes, and you’ll do the same thing over and over. And the director probably similar to coach in athletics, gives you feedback and then you try and alter based on the feedback to please them. Darren would do that. And then at the end, when he felt he got it, he was like, “Now do one for yourself.” And that was always the best one. And it was wild, because he would always do it when he felt like he got what he wanted. And then you just were completely free and it was… and then he was saying those were the takes he ended up using. It was really revolutionary for me to be able to, for the first time, really think about just for my own being.
Glennon Doyle:
When you talk about desire and separating that from all the things in our head that we think we’re supposed to want or want to do, to please other people, what do you think about desire right now for you? What do you desire most in your life? Besides-
Natalie Portman:
Such an old lady answer.
Glennon Doyle:
Besides sleep.
Amanda Doyle:
I know. That’s where we all went.
Natalie Portman:
The only thing I could think of. I was like, “Really want to sleep.”
Glennon Doyle:
Fair enough.
Natalie Portman:
Yeah. I hate that that’s my answer. I think I desire nature a lot too right now. I feel like that’s a post pandemic nature and community. I think I really miss community from being so isolated, and really miss nature from… or not miss it, but realize how important it is I think when you’re inside a lot.
Glennon Doyle:
What is your community? Is that friendship? Are you talking about friendship? Are you talking about families that you hang out with? What does community look like for you? We’re trying to figure that out for ourselves, so I’m actually curious about it.
Natalie Portman:
No. I think it’s the toughest thing. I think it’s a very American predicament, because we are so like, “Oh, you move where your career takes you.” It’s very removed from the village model of you live where your parents lived and where your grandparents lived. And then everyone’s in the same area and you have a structure and a ritual of people eat dinner together this day of the week, and people go to church this day of the week, and there’s this community game. There are places that are still like that, but I think a lot of us are, and especially in big cities, are really removed from that. And then it’s really complicated to find community. And then pandemic obviously exacerbated that. And then it does become around school or kids, or kids sports, or you end up hanging out with the people that you spend the most time with, which becomes a lot definitely when you have kids around that, which is amazing.
Natalie Portman:
You meet a whole new group of people. It becomes like you have several communities and not one. And there’s people from work and there’s the people from your kids and there’s the people from your family, that happen to be living in the same city as you, that aren’t necessarily your immediate family. It’s wild and it’s definitely another puzzle. I don’t know. What are your words of wisdom around building community?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I think it’s a good idea in general.
Amanda Doyle:
She’s a full body yes to it.
Glennon Doyle:
No-
Amanda Doyle:
In theory.
Glennon Doyle:
I haven’t been though my whole life because I got sober, and then my whole life was kids.
Abby Wambach:
Which was your community. That was-
Glennon Doyle:
Which is my-
Abby Wambach:
You had razor focus.
Glennon Doyle:
That was what I could handle.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. But now the kids are getting older, Natalie, so…
Abby Wambach:
She’s going, “Oh shit.”
Glennon Doyle:
I’m like, “Oh shit, what…”
Abby Wambach:
I’m going to have to look at Abby forever?
Glennon Doyle:
Right. We have been practicing.
Natalie Portman:
Must be rough.
Glennon Doyle:
We’ve been practicing, actually making friends and being in community, which means you have to call people back and you have to-
Abby Wambach:
Hang out with them and…
Glennon Doyle:
… remember things. It’s kind of beautiful. It’s starting to make me feel very tethered, like a village. And so I don’t know, I recommend it, but maybe not till the kids are older.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I just got into this community of my family. One of the things that I’m obsessed with is trying to be, I don’t know, the best version of myself parent-wise. I’m curious because I’ve been reading a little bit about your theory on over practice and under practice with kids. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Glennon Doyle:
Love it by the way.
Natalie Portman:
Ooh.
Abby Wambach:
So good.
Natalie Portman:
Tell me more. What’s my theory?
Glennon Doyle:
Natalie, here’s your theory. Okay.
Natalie Portman:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m just using my words, so this might not be your theory. This is what your theory to be.
Natalie Portman:
Great.
Glennon Doyle:
The-
Natalie Portman:
I’ll make it my theory, because I want to please you.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
The idea that our culture does of course teach some gender certain things, over teaches them certain things, and over teaches the another gender certain things. What you talked about was that with your little boy, you might over practice empathy and connection and sensitivity, not because it’s more important for boys to be that than girls, but because the culture has already handled the other side for them. Am I getting this right so far?
Natalie Portman:
Yes. Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Okay. Now can go.
Natalie Portman:
You’re making it much more eloquent than I’ve ever said it. I’m like, “Oh yeah. That makes sense.” But yes, I’ve talked about it in relation to my children’s book that I wrote, where I made more characters female. It’s balanced in the book, but that I had noticed that so many of the children’s book I was reading were largely male characters. And so I felt that girls have over practiced identifying with male characters, similar to what we’re talking about with athletic heroes, that girls have the practice of identifying and also some of this pleasing sensitivity that I talk about in myself, I think has to do with that over practice of getting into the mind of a male protagonist and being like, “What do they want?” And so in fiction, whether it’s books or movies or TV shows, I feel like I’m so used to getting into the mind of the male, and that I think that the underrepresentation of female characters in those fictional scenarios, where we do empathize and relate to characters, and particularly for kids, that boys could use more practice by getting into the female mind.
Natalie Portman:
And that what a different world it would be if boys were walking around imagining what the females around them were desiring. The same way that we are raised to be like, “How do they want me to act? How do they want me to dress? How do they want me to look? What shape would they like my body to be?” That we’re so hyper aware. And hopefully, also that girls by entering female minds, practicing female minds, puts them more into themselves as well and more into their own desire. I mean, I guess again, this personal challenge that I work through myself, I hope to change those patterns that I feel like I grew up with for my kids, which I’m sure you have your own that you focus on with yours.
Glennon Doyle:
I love it. It is. It’s a difference just when it’s asking your little boy, “How do you think they’re feeling?” And then asking your little girl, “How do you feel?” It’s just practicing.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Well, my Wolf Pack book, how oftentimes I’ll be on stage and being asked about it. And they’ll say, “This is a women’s leadership book.” And I’m like, “It’s actually just a leadership book.” In fact, if you read it, the note to the reader invites men into the concepts that are written about it. Though it’s written from a women’s perspective, it also is just a leadership book.
Glennon Doyle:
Great.
Abby Wambach:
We have to invite men and boys into the mindsets of the perspective and the lens through all genders, not just women, right?
Natalie Portman:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
We’re talking about non-binary people too, so I love that.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ve had men come up to me after speeches again and again and say, “I love this. Who is the male version of this?” I’m like, “Wow.” I’ve had to sit and listen and read so many books by men. I just find myself in it. I don’t say, “Damn it. Where’s the woman ver…” So fascinating.
Amanda Doyle:
This is why I love the practice term, because they’re coming by it honestly. They’ve never practiced. It’s that the way that we grew up having to practice the fact that he actually means everyone. Doesn’t it? It actually just means he. But we have had to practice so much reading as if that represents us, but they’ve never had to practice that way ever. And so I love that idea. I’ve never heard it put that way. That visualizing a woman as a main character is not only liberating to a little girl to see herself as a main character, it’s a boy practicing-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
… a world in which a woman is not just a supporting character.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Natalie Portman:
No, I think that’s such a great way of putting it, because it is in all the languages that are gendered, how you make plural is always male. So it is true that male starts to represent everyone. If you have to go to a generic term in the previous version of they, that we use in non-binary language, now that in other languages, that’s been the default setting that male was non-specific gender. That’s really interesting. Just like one of those things of how language affects the way you think. What would it be if the female could be universalized?
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Natalie Portman:
The female being is really exciting to think about,
Glennon Doyle:
Well, we say fireman, what’s the big deal? We can all find ourself in fireman. Yeah. Okay. If we can all find ourself in fireman, then why don’t we just first century call them all fire-women.
Natalie Portman:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
Because then certainly, all the men can find themselves in fire women.
Abby Wambach:
It’s really good.
Natalie Portman:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
And then everyone’s like, “Well, sure as hell we can’t do that.”
Abby Wambach:
Now you’re talking crazy.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. It’s so interesting to see how our own conditioning is like, “Oh, well we should find ourselves in that.”
Amanda Doyle:
Well, not get too far on a gender thing. But in the language piece, Natalie, they’ve done studies where certain words like the word bridge in certain languages are feminine and certain language are masculine. In the countries where they’re masculine, people report bridges as being strong and fortifying. In the languages where they are feminine, they are seen as precarious and beautiful.
Natalie Portman:
Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
But it’s a bridge. It’s a bridge in both. It’s just one’s feminine, one’s masculine. It’s fascinating.
Natalie Portman:
Wow. That’s amazing. Yeah. It’s always so magical too when you see that words like that, like in inanimate objects are gendered in other languages and you’re like, “What led the table to being female in this country and male in another” It’s so wild. It’s whole own subject. It’s another podcast.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. We’ll do that one next week. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Sister and I were talking about this the other night, in reference to you, because you said something about how when you were led to become a leader through Time’s Up or a million things, that you had to give up likability privilege, just how we call it. Sister always says, “Okay, as a woman, you can either be liked or you can lead, so pick one.” Do you think that that’s true. Do you think that as a woman, leadership does mean giving away likability?
Amanda Doyle:
Or control?
Natalie Portman:
It’s a great question. It’s a good question, and that’s a good distinction too. You definitely can’t control anything ever, which is also part of the thing I’m trying to learn. But I think it’s true. I think you certainly have to not care as much about likability. It is just inevitable that basically being specific about anything, makes you not likable to somebody. And when you care about pleasing people and making people like you, then you want to just be universal, which is watery. And so, yeah to take a stand on anything is absolutely going to make some people go, “Nope. Not you. Not into you.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Yes.
Natalie Portman:
That is a big step to take. I mean, there’s far braver things humans have done in life, but it was definitely a hurdle to get over.
Abby Wambach
I like big boss.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I did too. I like Big boss and I cannot lie. I was waiting.
Amanda Doyle:
Of course it took us 40 minutes, but we got there.
Glennon Doyle:
I do want to point out that I feel like with men, there is more of, if you’re going to take a stand, be specific, people aren’t going to like you. But I think with women, it almost doesn’t even matter what you’re specific about, because the thing that is unlikeable is the leadership at all. Is having a strong opinion, is the believing in yourself, is the wanting, is being ambitious or powerful or saying, “I have something that needs to be said.” So it almost doesn’t even matter what you’re saying. It’s that you’re saying it, that bumps up on people’s… and like, “Boo. There’s just something about her.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I just related so much to that. When you talk about Time’s Up, you gave two really awesome pieces of advice, which I loved so much. One was gossip well. Can you talk to us about what it means to gossip well?
Natalie Portman:
I think that something I learned, and I’m still learning too, is the kind of language that we’ve used about other women that we’ve participated in, that I’ve participated in. I will like take responsibility.
Abby Wambach:
Me too. Me too.
Natalie Portman:
Of either saying it myself, or repeating what other people say, and things about women that like… I mean, it can be about men too. I mean, gossip can be toxic about anyone, about all genders, but about women, there’s certainly certain words that we use. And also something I realized was that sometimes people were telling me gossip as a way of tarnishing someone’s reputation after they had done something to them, which is a crazy revelation for me too. Was like, “Oh, this director I worked with, who I really liked and was very nice to me, told me this bad thing about another actress.” And I repeated that information. And then I realized, he did something bad to that actress, and is trying to diminish her power so that he doesn’t get in trouble., by saying that she’s difficult or crazy or whatever.
Natalie Portman:
That was 10 years after the fact. But I think that to be hyper aware of those words, of crazy, of difficult, of bitchy, the awful words that people use about women. And then use the constructive parts of gossip. There are constructive parts. If it is sharing information, that is a dangerous person, be careful.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Natalie Portman:
That is constructive, women talking to each other. There are constructive forms of gossip. This is a great person. You should go there. That person’s really funny. That person’s really great to work with. That person stay away, careful. There’s constructive and there’s destructive. I’m against drama, inducing gossip, workplace drama stuff. I’m always like, “There’s no room for that.” But I don’t write it off completely because I do think there’s the village really helpful to survival aspect of gossip, that should not be thrown out.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
I like that, because even in the locker room, sometimes we just all need to vent, just to vent to get the out, and then we could move on. And obviously there’s many more aggressive and violent things that can happen on movie sets and in locker rooms and whatnot that I’m not talking about that specifically, but sometimes it’s really good to just get a good vent session out, because that’s really community-
Natalie Portman:
Bonding.
Abby Wambach:
… bonding and building.
Natalie Portman:
And also you could probably use a nicer term for it, but what movements haven’t grown out of some sort of gossip of me being like, “I’m having a bad experience. I’m also having a bad experience. I’m also having bad experience. Wait, we’re all having it.” That means I’m validated that this is a larger thing. It’s not me. We’re all experiencing this, and we can do something together about it. There’s a form of gossip that’s at the beginning of it, maybe we can identify it more as like sharing, and maybe call gossip the nasty stuff. But I think it’s important to differentiate those different forms of sharing negative experience, that like, maybe it’s important to share negative experience that’s happened to you directly versus someone you don’t know that you’ve heard about. We have to just be aware and question ourselves when we’re in situations where gossip arises.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Natalie Portman:
Is this constructive or destructive?
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Natalie Portman:
Is this something I personally experienced?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, even gossip is a gendered word.
Amanda Doyle:
They would never say guys gossip.
Glennon Doyle:
When men are telling each other things, it’s sharing information. And when women are telling each other things, it’s gossip. Even that word is gendered.
Natalie Portman:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s also brave to share what you went through, because when the stamp on women who have bad experiences with people in power, is that they’re crazy or difficult. Then you saying, “I’ve had a bad experience with this person in power.” Is a way of saying, “I reject the notion that I am crazy and difficult. I’m naming this is what it is.” And then other people can come out and be like, “Maybe I’m not crazy and difficult. Maybe my bad experience was because of the person who gave me the bad experience and not because of me.”
Natalie Portman:
Absolutely. And also I think that the journalists who have dealt with this, found that people were most willing to talk when they realized that they were protecting other people by talking, and that you understand that you being silent about your experience is actually endangering people and somehow complicit in a scenario. Again, I think that we have to be really careful about discouraging gossip completely.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Natalie Portman:
Because there is a form of it that can be extremely necessary, and it could be very silencing. And like you said, there is a gendered… I’m trying to remember where I read this, but it was saying that gossip was the most free part of a woman’s life because it’s where she can speak the truth.
Glennon Doyle:
I read that same article, Natalie. I read that same article.
Natalie Portman:
Yeah. What is that?
Glennon Doyle:
I think it’s probably the New York Times or something. I read-
Natalie Portman:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Natalie Portman:
because I remember underlying it. I’m like, “Where was this?”
Glennon Doyle:
But Natalie does have a specific sentence we can say, which I’ve used twice now.
Natalie Portman:
Uh oh.
Glennon Doyle:
And gives me goosebumps and makes me feel feelings. She said, “Stop the rhetoric that a woman is crazy or difficult. If a man says to you that a woman is crazy or difficult, ask him, what bad thing did you do to her? I don’t know why that makes me so emotional. What bad thing did you do to her? Just the alignment right away.
Amanda Doyle:
You are reprising Jane Foster in Thor: Love and Thunder, which I’m hoping is my epitaph. You came back to the role in part because you said you were excited to play a character who “is as weak as she is strong.” I love that so much. Can you tell us what it means to be as weak as you are strong? I feel like we should all be striving for that.
Natalie Portman:
I was so excited of course, to come back and work with Chris and Tessa again, and then to work with Taika, who’s the director, for the first time. He is extraordinary. And just knows how to make everything silly and profound at the same time, which is the best. But I feel like there’s this misperception that a feminist character has to be kick-ass and she’s just strong and can win in the fight. But I don’t relate to that unless she can also fall apart.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Natalie Portman:
Because that’s just not my experience. I see a woman who’s just like, can just get everything done and just cool and collected and capable at all times, as really awesome and not me at all. Not relatable. It was really fun to get to explore a human who gets thrown into a superhero role. I was like, “Oh, wait a minute.”
Glennon Doyle:
I guess I’m a ballerina.
Natalie Portman:
Exactly. Exactly. It was really fun to do. And especially with the humor that Taika and Chris and Tessa bring to it, is joyful.
Abby Wambach:
We’re going to switch gears a little bit right now and ask you some random questions. I want to know, Natalie Portman, what is the best advice you’ve ever received that you still rely upon?
Natalie Portman:
I have a cousin. My cousin Daniella, who is the closest person to me, and is so wise. Once when I was in the worst place in my life, she said to me, “I don’t worry about you.” It was the best thing ever. It made me feel so good. She was like, “You’re going to be fine. I’m not worried.” It was so calming for me. I’ve used it back to her now because when someone knows you really well, it’s almost the best thing you can say. It’s actually really stressful when someone’s like, “I’m here for you.” You’re like, “Shit.”
Amanda Doyle
What are we going to do?
Natalie Portman:
“Am I gonna make it?”
Abby Wambach:
But I think-
Natalie Portman:
You’re concerned that this is going to be bad. When someone’s like, “I know you and I’m not worried.” I was like, “Oh yeah.”
Abby Wambach:
You’re going to be fine is what we all say that’s the standard. I’m not worried about you, there’s something different about that, that really hit me in a way that makes me… it’s a more certain you’re going to be fine.
Natalie Portman:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like, “I know you well enough not to be worried.”
Abby Wambach:
I’m not worried about you.
Glennon Doyle:
I know your character. I know who you are. I’m reflecting back to you that you are the kind of person who’s going to be okay.
Abby Wambach:
Yes. Yes.
Natalie Portman:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like that thing you always say, Glennon, “I see your thing and that’s big, but I see you and you’re bigger.” It’s going to be alright.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m going to use that with my kids except, I’ll be like, “I’m not worried about you. Everything’s fine. Everything’s fine.”
Natalie Portman:
Yes, exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Natalie Portman:
I’m worried about everything.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. When things get wild and you get stressed out or you get sad or you get… I have my healthy coping strategies and my unhealthy coping strategies actually on-
Amanda Doyle:
Guess which list is longer.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Guess which list. I know my unhealthy ones are booze and binging. The things that took me down and made me abandon myself and made everything shit. And then I have healthier coping strategies, which are usually very simple things that I can do around my house. Do you know off the bat, what’s an unhealthy coping strategy for you, and what’s a healthy coping strategy for you?
Natalie Portman:
Yeah. Probably unhealthy is work, working too much. If we’re doing one, healthy. Oh my God, I’m such a dork. I watch a lot of food television when I’m stressed out, and feel it calms me down. My husband will come home and he’ll be like, “It’s been a bad day.” Because I’m watching Iron Chef. He’s like, “What happened?” Everything calms down and I stop spiraling about whatever I’m spiraling about. I feel really relaxed. It’s really, really dorky.
Abby Wambach:
I love it though. It’s like a show about nourishing yourself. You’re watching people making things that nourish people.
Glennon Doyle:
And also the stakes are low. The stakes are low. TV is so scary.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, except Iron Chef.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, but most of the time, the worst thing that’s going to happen is this soup’s going to get ruined.
Natalie Portman:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Right? That’s-
Natalie Portman:
They ramp it up so it feels stressful with music and effect, but really, it’s like, nothing. Everyone’s going to eat something good at the end of the day.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Natalie Portman:
It’s like, it’s all good.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s a good one.
Amanda Doyle:
If it makes you feel better, Natalie, that would’ve been on my healthy list.
Abby Wambach:
That is her healthy. That is her healthy.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, I thought you said that was your unhealthy, and I was like-
Natalie Portman:
No. No, that’s my healthy. The unhealthy is the workaholism I think.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, good.
Natalie Portman:
I mean, I love working when it’s like… because I’m just really stoked about being there, but if it’s because I’m like, “I need to accomplish this, this and that or whatever.” Then I think it’s an unhealthy.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. That makes me feel better.
Abby Wambach:
What do you do for fun?
Glennon Doyle:
Besides Iron Chef?
Natalie Portman:
I mean, it’s a lot of Iron Chef and Top Chef and Master Chef and Master Chef Junior. My husband’s like, “You’re watching master Chef Junior by yourself.”
Amanda Doyle:
Code red. Code red.
Natalie Portman:
It’s like, it’s children competing, cooking, but I love it. They’re so talented. It’s so moving sometimes I cry. I love being outside. I love doing anything outside. I go hiking with friends. Two of my best friends from high school, we went on a big hiking trip in Bryce and Zion. That was amazing, dreamy, best time of life.
Abby Wambach:
The hoodoos. Did you see the hoodoos?
Natalie Portman:
Oh my gosh. It’s so beautiful. Yeah. It’s so beautiful. That’s probably my favorite thing to do is just be with friends in that kind of environment, or my kids. That’s the best. That’s my biggest.
Amanda Doyle:
Can we just have a moment of appreciation for the fact that you just said you’re two best friends from high school. You have managed over the course of your wildly prolific life, to keep best friends from high school. That’s incredible.
Natalie Portman:
I guess so. What I think is more remarkable is that I met such awesome people that long ago and in that space. I think it’s so rare that you can meet anyone at that age that you’re still super interested in, whatever, 30 years later.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a gift.
Natalie Portman:
But also I feel like it’s natural, I don’t know, when you have a lot of people wanting to be around you for reasons that are impure, to hold on tight as you can to the people you’ve known the longest to be like, “Stick by me and keep me honest. Tell me what’s up.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Natalie Portman:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Makes sense. I don’t know. Thank you for just always being so present and always bringing your full self to every interaction you’re in. Whether it’s a phone call about Angel City or an hour long podcast or a new movie, the way you are with your friends and your babies. We adore you. Thank you for you.
Natalie Portman:
Feeling is mutual. Thank you so much. It was so great to talk to you. I hope we get to hang soon.
Amanda Doyle:
And Thor is out tomorrow.
Abby Wambach:
Woot woot.
Amanda Doyle:
So everyone will see it. It’s so exciting.
Glennon Doyle:
And you go watch Master Chef with your babies and-
Natalie Portman:
Oh my gosh.
Glennon Doyle:
… we will talk soon. And the rest of you…
Natalie Portman:
Watch it. It’s so relaxing.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
We will. We’re going to watch it. Thanks for being here, big boss. We love you.
Glennon Doyle:
We love you, big boss.
Abby Wambach:
You big bosses. Thank you.