How to Survive This Absurd Life with Samantha Irby
June 30, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Hello, sweet world. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. I think today we’ll call this We Can Do Funny Things, because we have one of the funniest people in the universe here, someone the three of us love to high heavens. So first of all, I’ll just tell you, we have Sam Irby here.
Abby Wambach:
Woot!
Glennon Doyle:
I know.
Abby Wambach:
Laugh out Loud author.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. Samantha Irby writes the Bitches Gotta Eat blog, and is the author of Wow, No Thank You, We Are Never Meeting In Real Life, and Meaty. She has been a writer and/or co-producer for TV shows, including And Just Like That, Work In Progress, Shrill, and Tuca and Bertie. Sam Irby, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.
Samantha Irby:
Thank you for having me on your incredible show. I am very intimidated. I’m going to do my best to sound cool and relaxed, but I’m nervous.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Well, let’s get the cool out of the way right away. Because what I want to start with, Sam, is our friendship origin story, which is my favorite story in the world. Okay, so Sam and I did an event together. At the end of the event, I loved her so much I sent her my phone number and email. Months and months later, lo so many months later, I am sitting in France at the World Cup next to my wife.
Amanda Doyle:
As you do.
Glennon Doyle:
As you do. I’m at the soccer, as per usual. But it’s a big soccer, like the biggest soccer.
Abby Wambach:
It’s the biggest soccer.
Glennon Doyle:
Like the Superbowl of soccer. The Oscars of soccer, if you will.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
The Grammys.
Abby Wambach:
I mean also, it’s just the World Cup.
Glennon Doyle:
The Grammys of the soccer.
Abby Wambach:
The World Cup is, it’s a standalone event. This is what everything else compares it to.
Glennon Doyle:
So like the Tonys, the Tonys of soccer.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh my God. Just go with the story.
Glennon Doyle:
And I get a text. And it says something like the following. “Hello, Glennon. I’m sorry to escalate our friendship on text in this way, but I’m in an emergency. I’m sitting in a room full of people, and I may have told the people that I’m very good friends with you and Abby. And now they’re calling me on it and asking me to call you, so can you please answer your phone and act like we’re good friends?” Do you remember, Abby, sitting there and being like, well, now she’s our favorite person in the entire universe?
Abby Wambach:
Instant, instant.
Samantha Irby:
I try to lead with honesty, even when it’s you know, humiliating. I don’t even… I remember it exactly. I was in the Work in Progress writer’s room, and someone mentioned you two. And to be cool I was like, “Oh, you mean my friends?” And they were like, mm-hmm. And then I had to text you and be like, “Please, could you act like we’re best friends so that I can impress these people who think I’m a huge liar?” And you did. And they were impressed.
Glennon Doyle:
Of course. Of course, we were sending pictures. Like, “We can’t believe you couldn’t come with us. Here’s your extra seat. This game sucks without you.”
Samantha Irby:
Yeah, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ve loved you ever since that moment. Okay. So Sam, we want to start this interview with one of our favorite questions, which is this. It was a question that Rachel Elizabeth asked and it was this: did you have a happy childhood or are you funny?
Samantha Irby:
I’m funny. Take that to take that to what you will, but… No, no. Let’s say I’m very funny.
Glennon Doyle:
Got it. Isn’t that like the best question though?
Samantha Irby:
It’s a really good question. And it’s totally, I know it’s a trope, but it’s totally true. Whenever you meet anyone you think is funny, you just want to get to the point where you’re like, “Okay, what’s your damage? Where did this come from? Do our damages match? Or can I learn something new about another way you can be fucked up?” You it’s like, “I have my way. What’s your way? How did you get here?” And usually it’s some terrible trauma, but because you’re talking to a funny person, they make it funny. And you’re like, “Oh, what happened? Who died? Who got hit by a what?” And then you’re cracking up.
Samantha Irby:
And then later it’s like, oh man, I’m really glad that I got to know that person, but also am I an asshole for laughing at all the stuff they told me in a funny way? People say that to me. They’ll be like, “When you talk about your childhood, it makes me really sad. But also I really laugh. Is that okay?” And I’m like, “Yeah. I want you to. I laugh, it’s the only way that I’m okay is if I can laugh about it.”
Glennon Doyle:
What went down that you had to get funny for?
Samantha Irby:
Well, I think… So I grew up super poor, but in a weird sort of poverty where I was surrounded by a lot of people who had money, and parents. And when you’re a kid, you don’t really have any idea of who has what, you just know what you don’t have. For me, I had to find a way to sort of… No, I was going to say rationalize, but that’s not the way, to see what I lacked and not feel bad about it. So it’s like, I don’t have all of this stuff. My mom was really sick, and then she went into a nursing home, and then I bounced around in foster homes and stuff. And it’s like, this has to be funny or it’ll kill me. I think that’s my philosophy to this day, is even in the most bleak of circumstances, I have to find the joke in order to keep going. Because I am not a traditionally hopeful person. I’m like, I guess I can make it. And so, the laughter sort of keeps the, I guess I can make it, going.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so interesting, because a lot of us have the, it’ll get better. The optimism. We get through, because we tell ourself it’s going to get better. But your theory has always been, no, I can just make the next five minutes more bearable?
Samantha Irby:
Yes. Yeah, if I can laugh at this thing. Both my parents died when I was 18, not together, which would’ve been cheaper, more emotionally economical for me. But at my mom’s funeral, I was like 18, I didn’t barely have a brain at 18. I couldn’t deal with grief, but I also couldn’t deal with people looking at me, because everyone’s always looking at you. You’re the star of the movie. And so, we were at her funeral and it was really sad. And my sisters and I are sitting in the front row. And the minister who was performing the service didn’t know my mom very well, but he knew my sister because it was at the church she went to. And my sister’s name is Carmen, and he kept referring to my mom as Carmen.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Samantha Irby:
And when I tell you I was screaming laughing, by the fourth time I was like falling over in the pew, laughing. And my sisters were laughing, and I was just like, okay, this is how we get through this. It’s terrible, and we’re going to have to sort through her stuff and figure out how much debt she was in, and all that stuff. But to get through that moment, we just were crying laughing at this dude. And Carmen, I felt bad for her. He kept saying-
Glennon Doyle:
RIP, Carmen.
Samantha Irby:
I was like, “Shouldn’t you climb in there?” Pointing to the casket. She was just like, “I’m going to beat your ass after this funeral.” You have to find the one absurd thing and just cling to that until you get through to a good place.
Abby Wambach:
Can I just say your laughter, the way you laugh makes me happy?
Glennon Doyle:
Me too. I feel happy.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
What you just described at the funeral, this is my whole question about humor. Is humor a way to deflect and hide from reality? Or is it actually the most real reality? Because it’s like, everything’s absurd all the time. Even the very sorrowful things are outrageously absurd. So, are we using it as a shield of armor to protect us from reality? Or is it actually the most active engagement with reality is to be like, “This shit is funny”?
Samantha Irby:
For me, I feel like it’s the most active way to interact with reality. Although I would say… Okay, sometimes with humor, I use it to protect myself. And I think that developed early, beCause I was like, I’ve always been a little fat kid with buck teeth. And nobody is charitable to you when that’s how you look. And so, my defense mechanism was always like, let’s beat them to the joke. Where I grew up, I grew up in Evanston, which is just North of Chicago. It’s where Northwestern is. I don’t know if it still exists, but when I was growing up there was this community donation place called ESCA, and all of the fancy people would donate their clothes there. And those of us who were not fancy would get clothes from there. And because I was a fat kid, I would always be wearing someone’s dad’s golf shirt to school.
Samantha Irby:
And one day this girl was like, “I think that’s my dad’s shirt.” And I could have, in the movie version I would melt into a puddle and there would be some sort of lesson. But I was like, “He has great taste, and the pits still smell like him.” Something disgusting but funny. And she was disarmed, and I didn’t feel bad for being poor. We just had that moment. And so, it has served to protect me in that way.
Samantha Irby:
But I think as an adult, what you said about engaging with reality in a more real way, I think when you were always looking for the absurd thing, you can’t ignore any part of what’s happening. It’s like, okay, this sucks, but I’m going to dig through all the suck to see what’s funny about it. I think it makes going through life less scary. And I’m a super anxious person. If I look in the rear view mirror and a car is coming too close, I feel like it’s chasing me. I mean, anxious for real. But my way of dealing with that is just to really receive all of it, and then pick out the part that’ll make me laugh. We’ll see how successful that continues to be as the world crumbles. But so far, it’s worked.
Amanda Doyle:
I have a quick follow up to that. So in the shirt situation, the funniness gets you through that moment, right? Because you’re disarming her, you’re disarming you, you’re taking it away. But is the underlying…
Samantha Irby:
Oh, I want to die.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. You still have to deal with the underlying stuff, right?
Samantha Irby:
Oh, absolutely. Oh yes, underneath that it’s like, I hate my mom for being poor. I hate my body for not fitting into cute things. No, under the surface, I don’t know that anyone would think I was a flighty, frivolous person. But under the surface of the funny is molten lava of rage, and disappointment, and hurt, and all of these things that I was born into, are not my fault. That’s always there. But if I engage with that all the time, I couldn’t get out of bed. I would just be like, oh, why was I put on earth to suffer? So I’ll make the jokes, but it’s fueled by the rage lava within.
Abby Wambach:
It’s like the stereotyping of comedians in the world. Like how so many comedians have this low level rage running underneath all of their jokes. To me, it’s their way of coping. But I also wonder for you, how are you actually dealing with that stuff that’s actually underneath it? What are things that you’re doing that make you-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s good. Is it always a deflection or covering?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Because you got to look at it, you got to present it. You got to turn it over and actually deal with it in moments, even if they’re private.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. What’s happening with the lava?
Samantha Irby:
Well, sometimes the lava gets worked out in my work. That’s the beauty of writing about myself, is that I can sit in front of a computer and sort through it. I just… Well, I shouldn’t say just. For the past year I’ve been going to therapy, which is interesting. Well, you could tell me, therapy is interesting in general. So I chose a cognitive behavioral therapist. And I don’t like therapy, let’s just say that. My therapist, the things she tells me are the antithesis of what I do. So, I fuel myself off my negative thoughts. My jokes come from there, my writing comes from there. My therapist is always like, “Let’s reframe those negative thoughts.” And I’m like, “Girl, I have-“
Glennon Doyle:
Are you going to give me a book deal? Are you going to give a book deal?
Samantha Irby:
“I just signed a three book deal, girl. I need these thoughts to be negative.”
Abby Wambach:
It’s so complicated. Because your livelihood depends on it in some ways. How do you deal with that? That’s just so-
Glennon Doyle:
Are you becoming positive, Sam?
Samantha Irby:
No. Wait until you read, I’m just finished writing one and it’s snarkier than ever. I have a whole chapter snarking about therapy, and why I’m paying all this money to argue with the woman. We don’t argue, but in my head I’m like, “I’m not doing that. I’m not doing that. I’m not thinking positively about that.” So, it’s a huge waste of time and I should probably find a different kind of therapy. But one of the things we’re working on is boundaries, and knowing when to say no. So as soon as she gets me to the point where I learn how to say no, I’m going to tell her no.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So is there anything that’s been helpful? Have you experienced anything in that room that has been helpful for your lava?
Samantha Irby:
Yes, okay. So one thing I like to do with her, is come up with strategies. And I’ve come up with two life changing, earth shattering strategies. I’m going to give them to you. I haven’t written about them, no one knows. Okay, my first one is a strategy I call, “I like it.” So I have found, and I’m sure you guys know too, when you say… You could say anything. “Oh man, that episode of 911,” I love that show. “That episode of 911 was really great.” There’s always going to be somebody who’s like, “You watch that?” Yeah. And it’s like, you know, yes. And people expect you to apologize for what you like. It’s like strangers are expecting you to justify your taste. And I have found that if you just say, “I like it,” it completely kneecaps them. Right?
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Samantha Irby:
It’s so weird. Once I started doing it, I noticed all the ways… I had to get something from a strip mall and this lady was like, “Oh, that’s where you go?” I don’t have any allegiance to the strip mall. But I don’t like this lady making me feel like an asshole. So I was like, “I like it.” And then she was like… And I was like, “Yeah, I like it. That strip mall is great.” They just can’t say anything. They’re just like, ugh. So that’s strategy one.
Samantha Irby:
Strategy two, this one is a little harder and it’s more recent. But when people act in a way that shows you that they don’t like you, telling them that you don’t think they like you, it changes everything. It gets you out of things.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Samantha Irby:
So, I had this interaction with this person that I’ve known for a long time. And this is a thing about sort of being funny, my humor is always projected internally. I don’t pick on people. I don’t make fun of people. I don’t care what anybody does. I am the villain of all my stories, so I pick on myself.
Amanda Doyle:
You punch in.
Samantha Irby:
I do, I punch in. I’m like a T-rex, my tiny arms punching in. My little arms, my little Rock ‘Em Sock ‘Em Robot arms punching myself. And sometimes that gives people, they take license and sort of punch me too. And it’s like, this is a single person game. You can laugh at it, but I don’t want you to rag on me all the time. So there’s this woman who, every interaction, she was just low key putting me down but also being like, “Ha ha, we’re friends,” right? And she asked me to hang out, this was a while ago. She asked me to hang out and I was like, “Oh, no thanks.” And she was like, “Why?” And I was like, “Because I don’t think you like me.” And she was like… And I was like, “Yeah, I just don’t think you like me.” And she was like, “I’m surprised to hear that.” And she didn’t say, “I do like you,” she said, “I’m surprised to hear that.”
Abby Wambach:
I’m surprised you picked up what I was laying down.
Samantha Irby:
I was like, “I bet you are surprised to hear that.” Because you just thought I would keep taking it, and keep letting you piss in my face and tell me it’s raining. And I just don’t think you like me.” And the way we ended it, she was just like, “Oh, okay.” And I was like, “Okay, bye.” And that’s it. It’s worth all the money just for those two strategies alone. Because my therapist is very… You guys know when you make things for people, and you feel a duty to your audience. I want to be open to people, I want to engage with people, I want them to keep in engaging with, i.e. buying the things that I’m trying to sell.
Glennon Doyle:
Engaging with.
Samantha Irby:
But at some point you just have to be like, okay, okay. I got to set a boundary here. I got to say no to this. I got to do whatever. It has been very helpful at least in changing the dynamic of people who talk to me. I’m sure that there’s a deep dive that I’m missing here, about maybe the way I talk about myself should change. I’m not ready to conquer that.
Glennon Doyle:
No, we’re not there yet.
Samantha Irby:
We’re not there.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re not letting anybody else punch in. And I love that.
Samantha Irby:
Yeah. That’s step one, is just to find ways to deflect. So, that has been helpful. But the rest of therapy, I don’t know, we’re going to keep going, but I don’t want to get too fixed. Right?
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Abby Wambach:
But I think that’s a really important thing to say for those that are listening because you don’t have to like therapy to continue to go and actually get something out of it. That’s really courageous to know, “I don’t like this, but I’ve gotten a couple things out of it that I feel really good about. And I’m going to keep going, because maybe there will be a third thing.”
Glennon Doyle:
Or go. Take what you need and then be like, “I think you’ve taken me as far… I don’t want to be fixed all the way, I’m out of here.”
Abby Wambach:
I don’t want to be fixed all the way. That’s good.
Samantha Irby:
I’m trying to picture her face if I say, “I don’t want to be fixed all the way.” And just imagining that is going to make me keep going because I want to see it, when she’s like, “Don’t worry. You’re not even close.”
Amanda Doyle:
There’s not an imminent threat of being fixed.
Samantha Irby:
Cute that you thought that, cute that you thought you were improving in any way. But you need to keep seeing me, don’t worry.
Amanda Doyle:
My therapist’s favorite phrase once a session, “There’s so much fertile ground here, so much fertile ground.” So yeah, don’t worry.
Samantha Irby:
How does it make you feel?
Amanda Doyle:
I’m happy for her, because I feel like she’s very excited about all the opportunities we have to work on very many things.
Amanda Doyle:
Speaking of helpful, you are the mastermind behind one of the most revolutionary groundbreaking portrayals of big women on screen ever. And I’m obviously talking about the Fat Babe Pool Party episode of Shrill, which became just instant classic, so important to so many people. Can you tell us why you wrote that, and what that whole process was like for you?
Samantha Irby:
Yeah. So Shrill is based on Lindy West’s memoir of the same name. And Lindy and I are very close friends. TV writing is so weird. It was my first TV job, and we’re in the room. And we wanted to take the character from this place of being kind of meek, and putting up with a bad dude and putting up with a job that sucked, to this point where she was like bold. Well, not all the way bold. We wanted to do more than one season, so a little bit more bold, and vocal and sticking up for herself. And so, we were brainstorming ideas for a big pivotal experience she could have that would change her. Now, everybody knows like in real life it takes years, and years, and years, and years of looking at Tumblrs of fat bodies. It’s not just an overnight kind of thing, but Hulu wasn’t going to give us 700 episodes for the first season. So we had to figure out a transformative experience she could have.
Samantha Irby:
And so, Lindy and I were talking about all of the different things we had been to that changed our ideas about fatness. And I talked about there used to be this dance party for fat girls in Chicago that would meet once a month and I would go to that. Clothing swaps, lots of different like websites and stuff, but there’s no way to show that on TV. And Lindy had gone to one of, I think Essie Golden started this party called the Chunky Dunk. It may it may not have been. Essie Golden had a pool party, and there were other pool parties, and Lindy had gone to a bunch of them. And it was like, let’s do that. We have to do that. We want to see that, showing women who look like us that they are beautiful, and making this thing.
Samantha Irby:
So we landed on a pool party, and we figured out what was going to be in the other episodes. And then when it got to the time of assigning, the show runner assigned me the pool party episode. And I was like, okay, I’ll write it. I was so excited. And so, when I was writing it I was just like, I want to see almost a real life Candyland, just beautiful, bright. I didn’t want it to be at the dingy hotel pool in a rundown Sheridan or whatever, no shade to Sheridan, or some sleazy hotel. I really wanted it just to be almost like a dream, because we deserve that.
Samantha Irby:
So I wrote it, I turned it in. The writer’s room ended, then I came back home to Michigan and they all went to Portland to shoot. And so Lindy was like, “You got to come out for your episode.” And I was a little nervous, because what you imagine is rarely what the real thing turns out to be. I also did not understand television budgets and that kind of thing. So I was like, I don’t know what it’s going to look like. I just hope it’s good. I flew out to Portland, and my biggest concern though other than how it looked, was I was like, it’s just going to be like Hollywood fat people. It’s going to be a bunch of size eights and tens, and not size 32 and 40s. You know what I mean? When you aren’t in charge of anything, I’m a very let go and let God kind of person. But also I knew what it could mean if we could do it the right way, if we could do it our way.
Samantha Irby:
So, we drive out to this country club and they were like, “Sam, go look at the pool.” So I went and looked at the pool, and I almost burst into tears. The set was so beautiful. It was just all these beautiful floaties, and the stands they set up, everything looked so gorgeous. And I was like, okay, okay. And then Lindy was like, “Let’s go talk to the extras.” And they had everybody inside the ballroom of this beautiful country club. And we go in, and I walked around the corner and I just saw all of these gorgeous women of all sizes, all abilities. There was a woman in a wheelchair, and there were women on crutches, and there are non-binary people. And it just was so beautiful.
Samantha Irby:
Everyone’s in bathing suits, which was so great. The costume people were designing things on site for people just so they… No one was in the utilitarian, basic bathing suit, everyone’s in gorgeous caftans, and beautiful bright colors. They had hair and makeup for everybody. And there were so many people. And I was like, oh, this is astonishing. I didn’t have words. I thought what was going to happen was what happens always, is they were going to throw three size tens in a pool and be like, there’s your party. But it was really gorgeous and everyone was so cared for, and it was really beautiful. And the entire time I was just sitting in the video village, just watching the monitors, I can’t believe they let us do this. That was really my overall feeling was like, it felt like we were getting away with something. I cannot believe they let us do this. And then they let us be in it. I don’t know if you saw my brief cameo by the pool.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Oh yeah.
Samantha Irby:
And I was like, okay, if I never work on another episode of TV again, it’ll be fine. We really did something special. And then it came out, and it just looked so gorgeous.
Glennon Doyle:
Magic.
Samantha Irby:
It’s so beautiful. And everyone did such a great job, it is one of my crowning achievements was getting it to work.
Abby Wambach:
I have a quick follow up. Who decides? Because you say they let us do this, somebody chose to actually do it in the vision in which you wrote it. You say let go let God, but somebody in that role in the TV world, it’s an important role. Because you said they got it right, who is that person?
Samantha Irby:
So Lindy was executive producer, but there’s many ranks. So I think Lindy was step one in being like, “This has got to be good. It’s got to be right.” And then Hulu, whoever the executives were at Hulu, whoever green lights the money. So TV crew people, they’re hardcore, they’re dressed in black. They have lots of carabiners and hats. They’re very serious. And in Portland, they look like Portland messenger bike bros. And so I was walking back to the car after the second day of shooting, this guy comes up. He is just covered in tattoos, real gruff looking. And he’s like, “Are you Sam Irby?” And I was like, uh oh, “Yes.” And he was like, “I just wanted to tell you what an honor it is to have worked on this episode.”
Samantha Irby:
And I was like, okay, that’s great. This person who, I don’t know his relationship to fat women, but I wouldn’t guess that he was a guy who would be in touch with us and our issues. And he appreciated it. That was the very beginning of like, oh okay, we’re doing a thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It was apparent.
Samantha Irby:
If you think about it too long, it’s like a shame that this was the first event of its kind. And that it was so meaningful. The hope is that we can make so many more shows and episodes like this, that it’s not an anomaly and we don’t need to celebrate it. But it was very cool just in that moment to have him acknowledge it. And then since it’s been out, to have people be like, “That meant so much to me,” it’s really cool.
Glennon Doyle:
Speaking of dudes and carabiners, I find this part of you very interesting. You approach friendship in a very different place than a lot of people I know. You can be friends… Well, you’re friends with a dude who wears a Budweiser belt buckle unironically. Right?
Samantha Irby:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
So this is hard for me to do, because I don’t know. I weed people out, I guess I believe that people’s belief systems as might be manifested in their belt buckles, are parts of their character. So I want to learn from you in this. Tell me how this works for you, because you can be friends with anybody.
Samantha Irby:
Yeah, I can. For me it’s like, are you funny and can you take a joke? That’s the primary thing, it’s like, can we have a laugh? Because all I’m trying to do is be laughing all the time. I’m not a clown, but let’s clown around. Let’s have fun. So if you can be fun, and if you think I’m funny… Let’s go back and say, if you think I’m funny, you’re halfway through the door. I’m like, oh, you’re delighted by something I’ve said? Come on in, murderer. You know what I mean?
Abby Wambach:
That’s totally me.
Glennon Doyle:
That is you.
Abby Wambach:
If somebody laughs at a single joke I’m like so in.
Samantha Irby:
Yes, we are soulmates. Oh, you think I’m funny? Let me give you my PIN. You know what I mean? I have the kind of personality that just, I don’t know. I can just get along with a lot of people. I think I have been fortunate enough that I haven’t ever tried to befriend someone who was so different from me politically, that it’s been a problem. I don’t have any friends who hate gay people or trans people. I don’t have any friends who are hardcore Conservatives. I have a lot of like friends that I think you’d be like, what do y’all bond over? And then I’ll be like, “Well, I watch wrestling,” and then it explains that friendship. You’re like, oh, you have a very narrow way of connecting with this person. And sometimes for me, that’s all it takes, is we can have a shared interest in one thing and we don’t have to get into other things.
Abby Wambach:
That is so good.
Glennon Doyle:
Don’t you wish-
Abby Wambach:
That is exactly how I feel.
Glennon Doyle:
I know, babe. I know.
Abby Wambach:
And you have a barrier to entry that is so fucking long.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s why I asked Sam, okay? I’m trying to learn this.
Abby Wambach:
No, I think it’s so beautiful. Because I can connect with somebody on one thing. And in a lot of ways, I can ignore a bunch of the other shit that I’m seeing. That I’m like, well, I like them in this way. And this is fun.
Samantha Irby:
Me too. I think, so I’m not going to guess, Glennon, why you have your rules. But I am going to, so this is kind of a guess, I’m going to say that I don’t need to have, and this not shade, an intimate soul relationship with everybody. I don’t need to get to the depths of people if we are just having a laugh, or we can talk about this one thing. Sometimes those narrow friendships branch out and grow. But I don’t go into things being like, okay, I’m going to meet this person and I’m going to hang out with them. And then I want to know everything about them. Some people you don’t you don’t want to know, you don’t want them to know everything about you. So, I think because I don’t look at everyone as a potential soul friend, because I’m just like, well, this is just my buddy who I do this with. Then it’s easier to let some of that other stuff fall away. I feel like you want to have deep friendships with everyone.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
I think that’s why I’m usually, if someone’s in my house watching wrestling, Sam, which wouldn’t happen, but okay. I am thinking, I’m side eyeing that person thinking, is this person one of my soulmates or not? And then when they roll their eyes at the wrong commercial, it’s over.
Abby Wambach:
It’s really something.
Samantha Irby:
I respect that, because the quality of your friendships is probably really great.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, everyone I’m friends with is on this podcast right now.
Samantha Irby:
Well, so that’s the thing. And I think it feels rude to call someone an acquaintance, but that’s essentially the difference. We’re friends because I know you inside and out, you know me inside and out. Our acquaintances who were just like, oh, Bob? Yeah, he’s a good time. We don’t need to know Bob’s soul. But it feels rude to call Bob an acquaintance, because that just is a rude word. So, we need like a capital F friend and a lowercase F friend.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. We need different words for friends. We need different words for friends. Because I don’t want to say Bob’s my friend, because I don’t want that to reflect. The next thing Bob says this, and then you’re like, “Wait, why are you friends with that dude?” Different words.
Amanda Doyle:
But don’t you think it all goes back to your view of life? Sam, your view of life is I want to find the absurd. I want to experience the absurd, I want to be part of seeing, being part of this, experiencing this. And so, you intersect with people who can bring that out of you or share that experience with you. Glennon’s view of life is very different than that. She’s like, I’m going to have a very narrow but deep experience of life. And I don’t actually want to participate in any extracurriculars.
Samantha Irby:
Right. I do not want any depth whatsoever. I told you, that’s where the lava is. We can only dip a toe in there before things get dangerous. So, I try to stay near the top of the volcano where it’s smokey, and sexy and fun. But I only get to the lava with a few people. Because, and I’ll tell you why-
Glennon Doyle:
Sam, that makes perfect sense.
Samantha Irby:
I’m not going to put it on them. I’m going to say that. I have that fear of when people really get down and see what’s in there, that they’re going to be like, “Oh, bye.” And that’s one of the hazards, I think of being a funny person, not just in life, but in my career, is that sometimes people don’t think that lower level exists. And then they are surprised when they get a glimpse of it. And I’m like, all I do is write about depression. How do you think that manifests itself for real? So, I think having lowercase F friends have friends, it feels good to the ego. It’s good to know people, it’s good to have people around. But also I’m not in danger of finding out any of their dark shit, and they’re not in danger of finding out any of mine, and thus rejecting me on account of that darkness.
Abby Wambach:
It’s good. It’s a safety measure.
Glennon Doyle:
So good, I get that. I get that. Do you sometimes feel responsibility to just always be funny and always be doing the thing with other people? Like entertaining them?
Samantha Irby:
I do. It never bothers me until I have a problem, and I talk about it to someone who wants funny Sam and they’re like, “Oh, just laugh it off.” And I’m like, no, no. This is the part where you find out that I got to go to bed for three days about it. Sometimes it takes a little distance. I can always laugh at things, maybe not in the moment or the next day. Eventually I’ll get there. There have been people who can’t deal with the in the moment, I’m not over this yet. And then you know, that’s never going to be your capital F friend, always going to be a lowercase. Never call that person when you have a problem. Never expect more from them, than the surface that you’re getting.
Samantha Irby:
And I think sometimes people divide themselves into those categories for you. My friend John, who I met on the internet forever ago, this was like 10 years ago maybe. I had posted that I was in the hospital, and we were just internet friends then. And he came and visited, and was the only person who visited. And I was like, oh, you want to be here during this stuff? Okay, we’re real friends. But I never put that pressure on anyone, because I know not everybody wants that. I like to do a little sorting of my own, and then let people sort themselves into their capital F or lowercase F.
Glennon Doyle:
I love that. Speaking of capital F friends, can we talk about your lady a little bit? So your lady, is it Kirsten or Kirsten?
Samantha Irby:
It’s Kirsten. Thank you, you’ve got it right. Oh my God, now she’s going to be your lady since you got her name right. She’s going to be like, “Glennon said what? Bye.” I knew it was coming.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So you two, didn’t you meet… Did she reach out to you?
Amanda Doyle:
She slid into your DMs, didn’t she?
Glennon Doyle:
She slid into your DMs.
Samantha Irby:
She tweeted at me, and this was back when I was still like looking at people saying things to me on Twitter who I didn’t know. Now I’m not even on Twitter anymore, but she tweeted that she loved the book, and then we got into one of those like tweet conversations. And I’m not a private person, but I do not like to conduct a public conversation. Like if we’re going to talk… She kept responding, and I was like, “Bitch, get into my inbox.” I mean, both of them, but get into my inbox. So, then we started DMing. And then I was like, it reached a level that I was like, this isn’t casual anymore. But with women, at least with this woman, it was never like, oh, I want to fuck. It was just like, I’m talking to you all the time. And I was like, okay girl, okay. And then, so we graduated to talking a lot. And then at a certain point I was like, “Listen, this is getting romantic. Is this romantic?” And she was like, “Yeah.” And I was like, “Okay, great.” And then we started talking, capital F friends.
Amanda Doyle:
That was brave of you. That was a very brave thing, to say, “Is this getting romantic?” How did you muster that up? That’s showing the lava.
Samantha Irby:
Yeah. Well, we had been talking for so long that I was like, I don’t know… And it’s hard to know when people want you or want the book you. And so, we had talked past the point where I thought oh, she’s just a fan. This is something else. But it was also so much talking that I was like, I cannot be talking to a person who doesn’t want to buy me dinner-
Amanda Doyle:
I need an ROI on all of this talking.
Samantha Irby:
I’m like, my thumb is getting fractured from texting this person, what are we doing? So I am not brave, but in that moment I was brave and was like, “What are we doing?” And I said it in a way that was like, if she was like, “Oh, we’re just talking,” I could laugh it off in case I had shown vulnerability too soon. So yeah, we just started talking. And then I lived in Chicago, she lived in Michigan. And she came and we went to brunch. And I brought a friend, because I was like, what if this person?
Glennon Doyle:
You did not. Say you did not.
Amanda Doyle:
Sam, Sam.
Samantha Irby:
It was so bad. She roasts me to this day. But my friend left and then we went to coffee after the brunch and I was like, okay, this is-
Glennon Doyle:
Did you know that day? Or was it a slow burn or was it like…
Samantha Irby:
It was slow, because she was coming out of a marriage and she had two kids who were like five and seven at the time. So, I certainly wasn’t rushing to get into that.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re like, “Call me when they’re 18.”
Samantha Irby:
I still am like, “Call me when they’re 18.” One is 16 and I’m like, “Two more years, you can get your ass out of here.” No, he’s actually really lovely. But I still am like, tick tock, kids. Our real life is going to start as soon as you guys leave. So it forced us to be slow, like I didn’t meet the kids for a year. We really took our time. And we lived in different places, so it was good that we really took our time. And I also was really cognizant of, you got to do your relationship grieving. I needed her to do all of her stuff and make sure that she was on board. And it was good, we took a long time. And then I was like, oh, your health insurance is better than mine? I’m moving to Michigan.
Amanda Doyle:
Are you done? Are you done with your grieving?
Samantha Irby:
Blue Cross? Get the U-Haul. Let’s get married.
Glennon Doyle:
So, what is your life like now? You’re in Michigan, you’ve got the two kids. You do not consider yourself a stepparent. Is that correct?
Samantha Irby:
I don’t. I consider myself an adjacent adult, who can pay for things and drive to things. My step kids are great. They’re really great, they’re funny and they’re charming. They’re all the stuff you want. They’ve always been good kids. The problem, I shouldn’t even say it’s a problem. It’s me. I am not parental, I am not unconditional. I’m very like, “Oh, you didn’t wash that plate after all the money I spent…” You know what I mean? The worst things that you… You know how when you’re a kid, you’re like, man, when I’m older and I’m around kids, I’m going to be so cool? I’m not. I have to stop myself from being like, “Do you know how much that chair that you’re standing up on costs?” And I don’t say it, but I feel in my soul that I want to say it.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so refreshing that you’re telling the truth about this. Thank you.
Samantha Irby:
I don’t know how parents do it. There was a reason I didn’t have kids, because I knew that I would just be the worst version. I’d buy the kid everything, and do all the stuff, and I’m sure I would teach it to read. But I also would be like, “I’m taking that iPad if you don’t do exactly what I say right now.” So I don’t think of myself as a stepparent, because I don’t tell them what to do-
Glennon Doyle:
Parent?
Samantha Irby:
Yeah. I don’t parent. I don’t tell them what to do. I don’t say, “You should study this.” We hang out, we watch movies. I’m like their cool aunt who has sex with their mom.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s great. Okay, one of my favorite things that you write about is your belief in not FOMO, but JOMO, not the fear of missing out, but the joy of missing out. And I feel like especially, activities, you said you have finally learned that no one else is ever having a better time than you are. Everything sucks, and everywhere everyone sucks.
Samantha Irby:
Never.
Glennon Doyle:
Right?
Abby Wambach:
I would disagree. I enjoy a person-
Samantha Irby:
You are a person who, I know, you love to be in the mix. You love to go to stuff, you love to be there, you love to talk to people. I am in awe of a person like you, but I would never want to be that, or you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes or you, exactly. Exactly. Because the mix-
Samantha Irby:
I love that you can do it, but never.
Glennon Doyle:
No, the mix is the thing that should be avoided. The mix. But it’s not that it’s just the joy of missing out on the event. You have taught us about the joy of missing out on having a take on fucking everything. This is one of my favorite… So, Sam’s talking about or writing about the idea that she’s supposed to have an opinion or a take on every single thing that happens in the world. And this is one of my favorite that ever was said: “One of the reasons I give a lot of disclaimers, is because we give so much weight to what people say who maybe we should not be listening to. I do want to remind people, don’t ask me about the news. I don’t watch the news. I haven’t read a history book since 1997. I am keenly aware of what I know and what I don’t know. One of the things I don’t know is anything smart or important that needs to be told to other people.” Let’s just take a moment with that sentence.
Samantha Irby:
It’s true, it’s true. We live in this time of racing to get your take out. And I am always considering the source, and the source is rarely a person who is smart, or thoughtful, or you know what I mean? Every time I see an infographic, I’m like who said that? Where did they go to school? What’s their qualification? Shut the fuck up. I am not interested in anything regular people think they know about big things. You ate at a breakfast place that was terrible? Tell me about that. I don’t want to hear their take on global politics or whatever. Let’s leave that to the experts.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so freeing.
Samantha Irby:
If you can prove to me that you read a book on the subject that you are pontificating on, then maybe I’ll listen. I probably won’t, but maybe. Just this thing where because someone said it loud, we got to listen, is bonkers to me. I don’t know anything. I could tell you I had a Starbucks this morning that was delicious, you could believe that. I went to high school 40 years ago. How old am I? I’m 42, however many years ago I graduated at 17. I’m not even smart enough to do the math, to tell you how long ago that I graduated high school.
Abby Wambach:
1998, you’re class of ’98.
Samantha Irby:
Don’t listen to anything I say. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t attempt to say anything smart about anything. I can only tell you about my little ant of an experience in terms of this giant world.
Glennon Doyle:
Sam, your ant of an experience profound on this giant world has helped so many of us. Just find the absurd, to make the next five minutes a little bit more tolerable. That’s what you do for all of us.
Samantha Irby:
Thank you.
Abby Wambach:
What she just said though, is so profound, about consider the source. That is actually really important. We take everybody’s word at face value, and it’s like, oh, this thing was written on my Twitter feed. I say shit to you sometimes and you’re like, “Who wrote that?” And I’m like, “I don’t know.” We’re all susceptible of believing everything we hear and read, so I love that. I think you’re amazing.
Amanda Doyle:
But I think the reverse is also equally important. That in this age where everyone is called to be an individual expert on myriad things happening in the world, that it is okay to be a listener.
Samantha Irby:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Not everyone needs to be speaking all the time. It is okay to take your moment, and learn your thing and just be a receiver as opposed to a distributor of news.
Samantha Irby:
So smart. No, that is it. Just listen, shut up and listen is the-
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, that’s our next hard thing.
Samantha Irby:
The less sophisticated way of saying that is shut the fuck up.
Glennon Doyle:
And with that, we can do hard things, love bugs, like shut the fuck up. We will see you next time on We Can Do Hard Things. Sam Irby, thank you for this hour. And thank you for who you are in the world.
Samantha Irby:
Thank you for having me. What a joy. I’m glad I didn’t miss out on this.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Also, next right thing. Find one person to share your lava with. Just find one, we only need one. You can have friends with all the belt buckles you need. But one for the lava.
Abby Wambach:
I love this so much. Sam, you’re awesome.
Samantha Irby:
This was so great, I love you.