How to Rethink Being “Left Out” & Glennon’s Top 3 Embarrassing Mishaps Going Out
March 13, 2024
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today’s episode is for anyone who has ever felt left out
Abby Wambach:
i.e. everyone.
Glennon Doyle:
So we did this episode a while back, episode 241 that was all about feeling left out. It was just like a conversation about the universal, lifelong ache of feeling left out and people felt excited about that episode. We got hundreds and hundreds of messages from you all about different types of feeling left out because in that episode, we were talking a lot about socially feeling left out. This episode really opened the conversation to all different forms of being left out and is it something that we should solve, or is it just a part of the human experience that teaches us something and it can’t be solved?
Amanda Doyle:
And also, people leaving other people out or being seen as leaving other people out, when really they’re just exercising their preferences and their right to choose who they want around them.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
And what do you do with that?
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. Okay, so here comes the third grade teacher in me. Everyone’s invited. Don’t you dare bring an invitation to this classroom unless everyone is invited. That was my vibe. However, aren’t we supposed to be teaching children to make choices about who they let into their lives and who treats them well and who they feel safe with? And so, maybe that isn’t the … It’s just a fascinating conversation.
Abby Wambach:
I agree. I have some more to add. Do you think that the feeling of being left out is a rejection of death?
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Abby’s been thinking about death a lot lately, so we’re just going to keep going with this. Baby, tell us more.
Abby Wambach:
I’ve been thinking a lot about death as it relates to my birth. I think they’re two and the same. And we come into the world alone and we leave the world alone.
Glennon Doyle:
Correct.
Abby Wambach:
And I think that in the middle we’re trying to convince ourselves that we aren’t actually in fact alone.
Glennon Doyle:
Damn.
Amanda Doyle:
Damn.
Abby Wambach:
Right?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Like Tish, I’m sure I’ve told this story before, but our little existential, oozing child, who would come into our room at like 2:00 in the morning and be like, “Mom, I’m alone.” And I’d say, “No, you’re not, honey. I’m right here.” And she’d go, “No, I’m alone inside my skin. You can’t get in here and I can’t get out.”
Abby Wambach:
It’s true. That shit is true.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s terrifying.
Abby Wambach:
And I think that that’s why the feeling of being left out hurts so much, is because it’s this primal instinct that we are trying to always avoid the truth of the fact that we’re all-
Glennon Doyle:
Alone.
Abby Wambach:
… we’re all going to die, and we are all also alone, currently in this moment.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, evolutionarily, scientists believe that it is such a strong need, up with the basic human needs of food and shelter, et cetera, because thousands of years ago, if you were rejected out of the group, you would die. You needed the security of the group in order to survive during that time. So, they believe that that was passed down, that we equate being exiled from a group, not belonging to a group to be life-threatening on some level, evolutionarily.
Abby Wambach:
But also, maybe that’s the point. Maybe it is in fact the process here, to create community so that you can survive the time that we are here. I don’t know.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, you’re both saying the same thing. It has to do with death.
Abby Wambach:
Both, both.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It has to do with being peeled off from the group or just facing the fact that you’re all alone and your skin and you can’t get out and no one can get in. Either way, it’s about existential dread, right?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Also, it’s about really good birthday parties and not wanting to not go to them.
Abby Wambach:
True.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, but when kiddos, when they’re left out of a social group or in high school, those feelings are so horrific. It is existential. We don’t understand sometimes why that feels so dramatic, but it is because your fight or flight doesn’t know that you’re not about to be picked off, that you’re not the lone animal in the field that the group has gone on without, and that now you’re the most vulnerable.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
When you’re picked off and you’re alone, you feel vulnerable. So we talked about this morning, sister and I, were talking about when and where we feel the most left out. And I was talking about social media makes me feel left out. I make conscious decisions about things I don’t want to do and don’t care about and don’t want to be involved in. And then I go on social media and I feel suddenly like I’m not doing enough. I’m missing all these opportunities. I don’t know. And I feel it happening in my body. And then I remember that 10 minutes ago, I didn’t have any problems and now I have so many problems, suddenly. I know that that is how a lot of people feel but I think it’s really important since it’s so pervasive, to keep reminding ourselves that that’s what we’re doing, often when we get on to scroll, is just giving ourselves a lot of problems that we didn’t have a minute ago.
Abby Wambach:
That’s an interesting way of thinking about it. Hey baby, I love you so much, but you’re using my arm rest and it’s not as comfortable for me, and I’m feeling left out of this chair. So can we just scoot this this way?
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like Abby’s therapy is working really well and she’s expressing a lot of feelings and boundaries and it’s really uncomfortable for me.
Abby Wambach:
But I just think that you’re getting a little bit [inaudible 00:06:04].
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God, is this better?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Am I far enough away from you now? So anyway, the truth of the matter is the place that I feel terror, existential, left-outedness, dread, is a place that we don’t really do anymore because of this, but it is at fancy red carpet things.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. And I have thought-
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my God.
Glennon Doyle:
… I mean Abby, we’re just going to tell you a story or two, pod squad, because I have thought a lot about this. Why do I despise it so much? And I used to say to other people and to myself, it’s because there’s too much attention there. People are staring at you. People are taking pictures. People are paying too much attention to me there.
In my truthiest truth, I hate it because no one’s paying attention to me. That is the truth. That is the truth. Because there is a left-outedness that has to do with attention and importance.
Abby Wambach:
A hierarchical situation that’s happening on the red carpet.
Glennon Doyle:
And when I go to a red carpet, there are zero times where I’m even close to the top 60% of the most important people there according to the people with the flashes. Pod squad, I just need you to understand what this is like.
Someone tells you that you have to dress up and go to this thing, and then you dress up in these very awkward clothes, and then you stand in a line where somebody stands in this line and they just decide who’s most important. So you could be waiting there for an hour and a half and people just get pulled around you.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, you don’t just walk?
Glennon Doyle:
Totally.
Amanda Doyle:
You don’t walk?
Abby Wambach:
Well, it depends. Some events, it just depends on the event.
Glennon Doyle:
Lots of times they stop you until everyone who’s more important than you goes. So, you just stand there and you try to dissociate and pretend that you don’t understand what’s happening.
Abby Wambach:
And it’s really embarrassing because-
Glennon Doyle:
It’s humiliating.
Abby Wambach:
… because sometimes the photographers have no fucking clue who you are. So the handler, the person who’s at the front of the red carpet, they have a whiteboard and they write your name on the whiteboard and they’re walking next to you, so that the photographers will call out the correct name.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, but wait a minute, they only write down your name if you’re Abby Wambach. If you’re Abby Wambach’s wife, who they don’t have a freaking clue, you don’t even get a whiteboard. You stand there, and you just try to smile, try to pretend like you have any dignity left because they’re … Oh, it’s so stressful. They’re screaming, they’re screaming your name. No, they’re not. They sure as hell aren’t screaming my name. No one is screaming my name. They call people over to ask questions. No one’s calling me over. It’s humiliating.
Abby Wambach:
It is.
Amanda Doyle:
It just confirms Every fear that you’re-
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, my God.
Amanda Doyle:
… utterly irrelevant and uninteresting and no one cares that you exist.
Glennon Doyle:
But if you’re going to be irrelevant, have some dignity and be irrelevant at home. I am there. I’m dressed up.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re electing into this judgment upon you.
Glennon Doyle:
And then Abby is so sweet that she knows what’s going on. So, they’re screaming Abby’s name. So Abby’s like bringing me over to the reporters and then-
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, that’s even worse.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God, it’s the worst. And then she’ll be like, “This is my wife.” And then the sweet reporter, if they’re sweet, gives me a pity question or something. So I have to rush through the pity question because we all know no one cares. They probably stop the recording. It’s just horrific.
Abby Wambach:
What do we do now with the red carpets? What’s the last one we went to?
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Oh, yeah. Well, I’m going to tell you about three red carpets. Number one, a couple red carpets ago, I figured out I could wear sunglasses. Do you remember this?
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, if I wear sunglasses on the red carpet, then I can close my eyes while it’s happening. This is what I told myself. I can close my eyes.
Abby Wambach:
You guys.
Glennon Doyle:
Pretend I’m not there in the mysterious way. I can basically pretend I’m asleep the whole time. Stand there-
Amanda Doyle:
So this is a mode to dissociate?
Glennon Doyle:
… dissociate.
Amanda Doyle:
Physically as well as mentally.
Glennon Doyle:
Because it was for Angel City. I understand. We’re doing something. I think I have to go. So I’m going to go, but I’m going to find a way to do it, where I could not be there. So, close my eyes. Sunglasses, fucking brilliant. All right, I get to the end of the red carpet. I don’t even know what happened.
Amanda Doyle:
How do you walk?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, you open your eyes in between stops. I’m not walking, but you have to keep stopping and looking. But when the people are pretending to take your picture, your eyes are closed, okay? Now what happened, Abby? Please tell. Please tell the pod squad what we discovered that night when they sent us the pictures.
Abby Wambach:
Well, what happened-
Amanda Doyle:
The flash will show your eyes [inaudible 00:11:05].
Abby Wambach:
Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, all the pictures are of me and Abby standing there. You can see completely through to my face and my eyes are closed in every single picture as if I’m standing and sleeping. Yeah, eyes closed the whole time.
All right, the last red carpet we go to, we decided we’re going to do this because it was for Ted Lasso and we love that show so much and it’s so fucking sweet that show. So they were like, it’s so important for us to have “Abby and Glennon at our red carpet. So I’m like, “Oh God, okay, I’ll go and pretend it’s important for me.”
Amanda Doyle:
So important For us to have Abby and whoever’s her plus one.
Glennon Doyle:
Abby and that wife that’s so important to her. We should invite her too. Better chance she’ll come. So this is really the first thing I’d done after my recovery had started. And so, I really felt like we got there and we’re standing at the end of the thing and all the lights, it’s at this place in LA, everything shut down. Huge. So many people there.
Abby Wambach:
And there’s a ton of people in the line to walk the red carpet. It was going to take about 30 to 40 minutes for everybody in the line for the red carpet to get into the theater to watch the premiere.
Glennon Doyle:
And it was going to take two hours for me because they’re going to have to let everybody else ahead of me. So Abby looks at me and she goes, “We don’t have to do this.” And I was like, “Are you serious? We don’t have to do this? We can skip this.” So we get out of the line, we go behind the huge screen. We are stealthily trying to creep behind the screen. You can’t go in front because then people will see you leave the line. So we’re walking behind the screen and we see Jason Sudeikis’ two sisters.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, his family.
Glennon Doyle:
His whole family, his kids, they’re all hiding behind the screen.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, [inaudible 00:12:50].
Glennon Doyle:
So, we hang out with them. It was the best.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, it was actually so much better.
Glennon Doyle:
The other scared people behind the screen are where you want to be. Before I end this red carpet tirade, I do want to tell you one story. Years ago, Abby was still trying to, with fancy and big things, win the children’s affection. Our children are not into these sorts of things in any way, but the ESPYs were happening and the ESPYs are like the Oscars for the sports people. They get together, they wear fancy things, there’s a red carpet. They say, “Here’s your trophy for your big play. Your big win.” You know, it’s like that.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so Abby gets invited. Abby says, “I think we should go because this is the one where Aly Raisman and Simone Biles and these people that the children love are going to be there.”
Abby Wambach:
I was presenting an award. They asked me to present an award.
Glennon Doyle:
You were presenting an award for Simone Biles, right. So because the children got so excited, I was considering it even though I was terrified. And Abby says, “I promise you that I will not leave you. I not leave you at this thing to make small talk, or have to explain what I’m doing there.” Or when someone says, “What are you?” And I say, “I’m a writer.” And they say, “What do you write?” And I say, “I don’t know how to answer this question.” They say, “Is there anything that you’ve ever written that I would know about?” It’s just humiliating.
Abby Wambach:
It was 2017, years before Untamed. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So, we decide we’ll go. We go to the red carpet, there’s children with us, the whole thing. I run, I just try to run the children down the red carpet because the whole thing is so awkward and horrifying. So, the children are running behind me, like ducklings. There’s all of these famous sports people, I don’t know who the hell any of them are.
And I need the pod squad to understand that when I start to dissociate in social situations, you will never know what’s going to come out of my mouth. I don’t know how to not be weird. Weird things happen. So this is why Abby’s like, “I’ll stay with you. I’ll answer the questions.” I’m getting better now at this. I’m staying in my body.
Abby Wambach:
Got it.
Glennon Doyle:
So I am controlling the things that come out of my mouth.
Amanda Doyle:
You have a general awareness of what you’re about to say.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Whereas when you’re not in your body, one can’t know what’s going to happen.
Glennon Doyle:
One can’t know. So we’re getting ready to walk into the doors finally, I’ve made it past the horrific red situation. The doors open and Michael Phelps is standing there. I know this person. I have seen him on commercials. I remember, you know-
Abby Wambach:
Olympic swimmer, for those who don’t know.
Glennon Doyle:
… Olympic swimmer. He had some issues with pot. I just felt close to this guy. He went through some stuff. He was still swimming his little heart out. He talked about mental health a little bit. I really liked his situation. We see Michael Phelps. The kids are behind me. I look at Michael Phelps. He probably doesn’t see me because I’m one-third of him.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, he’s a tall dude.
Glennon Doyle:
So I look up at him and I say the following, it’s just us in the doorway. We’re just trying to make it past each other. I say, “Hello, Michael Phelps.” Now, Abby walks up right as I’m saying, “Hello, Michael Phelps.” What I need you to know pod squad is there was a real big silence after it. And the reason was I said those words as if I was a bounty hunter and I had been searching for Michael Phelps for years and years.
Amanda Doyle:
You were twisting your mustache or something, saying, “Hello, Michael Phelps.”
Glennon Doyle:
“Hello, Michael Phelps.”
Amanda Doyle:
Caught you.
Glennon Doyle:
No one could think anything other than I had caught Michael Phelps red-handed.
Amanda Doyle:
Which is surprising since you’re a third his size.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. So Michael Phelps stares at me. I stare back, I look at Abby, because she’s come up behind me. With my eyes, I say to Abby, “Well what do we do now?” Which is what I’m always saying. And so, Abby says to Michael Phelps, “We’re going to go ahead and sit down.” And I think that’s a great idea. So the whole family just leaves Michael Phelps, who’s probably so relieved he’s not being taken in.
Amanda Doyle:
He thought he was going to the slammer.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. So here’s what happens next. We sit down, we are in the front effing row of the fancy room where the ESPYs are happening. Just picture whatever room.
Abby Wambach:
It was a theater.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like a theater. It’s a theater, right. Now here’s what happens, if you’re in the front row there. I sit down and there is a camera which is transmitting our images on the television and the camera is two feet in front of my face, just-
Abby Wambach:
That’s horrible.
Glennon Doyle:
… right there. Now, I look at Abby like what? She goes, “Just act normal. Just be normal.”
Amanda Doyle:
No, like that’s a thing.
Glennon Doyle:
I beg you, I beg you to tell me how to act normal. How does a normal person … so I just try to make my face normal, be normal, be normal. And Abby goes, “Why are you doing …” I say, “Doing what?” She goes, “Making those faces. Stop making those faces.” She’s whispering it to me because the camera’s right in our face.
Amanda Doyle:
She’s afraid she’s mic-ed.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. So I try to stop making the faces. The chair next to us, the show is about to start and the chair next to us is open. And I’m thinking, I know something and that is that Michelle Obama is going to be at this ESPYs. I think if I’m Michelle Obama’s people, I don’t sit her down until the very end.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, it’s very commonplace for the highest profile folks. They don’t even really walk the red carpet. They just come in late to the party and they have these seat savers. So that usually a seat’s empty and a random actor will come and sit to make it look like the whole theater is full. And then that person comes in later.
Glennon Doyle:
So, I’m thinking that’s why the camera’s here. That’s why the seat is … I’m about to sit next to Michelle Obama. You might think this is good news for me, this just-
Amanda Doyle:
You’re going to say, “Hello, Michelle Obama.”
Glennon Doyle:
Hey, Michelle Obama. What does one say? Is Michelle Obama going to have to go through the thing where she pretends she knows who I am. Are we going to do it again? I don’t know. So I’m mentally preparing for this. This person walks out and puts a plastic sheet all over this chair. Now, this is long before COVID so I’m thinking, “Wow, okay, Michelle Obama doesn’t like germs.”
Abby Wambach:
They’re really protecting her.
Glennon Doyle:
I agree. National treasure, protect Michelle Obama. Do you need me to wear an hazmat suit? Well done. Okay, so the sheet is down. The kids are in the row behind us, by the way. The show starts, the music starts, and the next thing I know, I look over and a large person who’s like seven feet tall-
Abby Wambach:
In a tux.
Glennon Doyle:
… in a tux is carrying towards me a humongous duck. Wasn’t it a goose?
Abby Wambach:
Well, I think it’s duck.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, I think it was a goose. Yeah, hold on.
Abby Wambach:
What is it?
Glennon Doyle:
It was a goose. You guys, the important thing is not whether it’s a duck or a goose. The important thing is that a huge winged animal was coming towards me in the front row. I look at Abby, Abby just keeps looking straight. She is not going to entertain my faces anymore. We’re just going to get through this duck moment.
Abby Wambach:
I’m ignoring the fact that there is an animal, not a human, sitting next to my wife.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. So the next thing I know this man puts … okay, for sure it was a goose because it took up the whole chair. And ducks are small, right? So, huge man is walking towards me with a large white goose. When I tell you, a goose pod squad, you know geese when you see them and it’s scary and they’re far from you at a pond? And so you stay away from geese because you never know what they’ll do. The goose is coming towards me, at me, while I’m supposed to be acting normal with a camera in my face.
I look at Abby, she will not make eye contact with me. She just keeps saying, “Act normal.” She goes, “Act normal, act normal.” I’m like, “How does one act? What is normal?” And a goose is about to sit next to you.
Abby Wambach:
And I wanted to switch seats with you. But in those moments I’m thinking, “Oh my gosh, what if they pan to me and I’m in Glennon’s seat? And then they pan to Glennon and they put Abby Wambach under it.” You can’t switch seats.
Glennon Doyle:
You can’t switch seats.
Abby Wambach:
You’re in an assigned seat.
Glennon Doyle:
So I’m just frozen. Whatever’s the opposite of Michelle Obama is next to me now. A goose is sitting in the seat next to me. The geese’s feathers is touching me. It was like the chair situation earlier. Yeah, yeah. The goose was in my business and the camera’s on me and the goose, the kids, I can hear them.
Abby Wambach:
They’re dying laughing.
Glennon Doyle:
Dying laughing from behind. Of all situations because animal-
Abby Wambach:
Emma’s like 11, Tisha’s 13, Chase is like 15 or something, 16.
Glennon Doyle:
And they know that I am done. But you guys, I just want you to picture the goose is watching the show.
Amanda Doyle:
Is the goose attentive? [inaudible 00:22:45].
Glennon Doyle:
The goose is attentive. I keep side-eyeing the goose, and the goose is just straight ahead. All attention on the stage.
Abby Wambach:
The goose was fully embodied.
Glennon Doyle:
The was goose is embodied.
Amanda Doyle:
The goose was like, “Damn it, I thought I’d sit next to Michelle Obama.”
Glennon Doyle:
The goose is like, who’s this seat filler I’m next to? I don’t know what looks weirder, to try to appear like I’m surprised there’s a goose sitting next to me, or to not appear surprised a goose sitting next to me.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, it’s a duck.
Glennon Doyle:
It was a duck?
Amanda Doyle:
Damn it.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, well, it was a huge duck. Turns out this was the Aflac duck.
Abby Wambach:
Well, yeah, so I think it was an Aflac skit.
Glennon Doyle:
It was a skit.
Abby Wambach:
But I do think that it was a goose. I think it was an actual goose.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, do you know what I did say to the goose? Hello, goose. That was my favorite part of the night. Hello, goose.
Amanda Doyle:
So, it was like a promotional Aflac thing to have the duck, duck goose there?
Abby Wambach:
They were working it into, as a funny comedic skit of the ESPYs.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh my God. I hope that duck, goose gets paid.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, do you remember what the goose did five minutes in?
Abby Wambach:
I do remember what the-
Glennon Doyle:
What did the goose do?
Abby Wambach:
The goose-
Amanda Doyle:
Used the plastic?
Abby Wambach:
… the goose took a poop.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. So, act normal. You’re in the front seat of an award ceremony, a goose that is touching you, just shit while you’re in your Sunday best.
Abby Wambach:
And I was pissed because Chase was behind me wearing my nice sneakers and the shit got on the sneakers and I was pissed. I was like, “This is not worth the funny.”
Glennon Doyle:
And then do you remember what happens? And then I’ll end. Don’t worry, I’ll end this story. Michelle Obama walks on stage, so I’m trying to look dignified. I’m trying to pay attention to this treasure of a human being and I just, there’s a goose with me.
Abby Wambach:
A duck.
Glennon Doyle:
A duck. What the fuck ever.
Amanda Doyle:
I remember that picture. We’re going to have to post that picture. That was good. I think it was wearing a bow tie too.
Glennon Doyle:
It was for sure wearing a bow tie.
Abby Wambach:
The duck and its handler were dressed the same.
Glennon Doyle:
They were. But if you’re listening, hello, Michael Phelps. I think we were talking about feeling left out.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, do we want to go to some Pod Squadder Q and As?
Amanda Doyle:
I think we should.
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s do it.
Amanda Doyle:
Let’s hear from …
Abby Wambach:
Lisa.
Amanda Doyle:
Lisa.
Lisa:
Hi Glennon, Abby and sister. I love you all. My name is Lisa. I’m calling today because I just listened to the podcast about being left out. And of course I’ve experienced it, watched my daughter experience it. I just recently experienced it when I was driving near my neighbor’s house and saw all of their children playing out in the yard and had to really calm myself down, knowing that all the moms were inside visiting and I wasn’t invited. That was okay, but I still feel myself thinking about it four days later.
But what I really wanted to talk about was a time when my friend group excluded someone who just really didn’t fit in with us. She was a lovely person, but didn’t have the same sense of humor as us, didn’t participate in our conversations, but we hung out with her for probably about six months, trying to include her in things. And she would come and just sit there and be a bump on the log. And then we just kind of stopped including her. This was like 10 years ago. I still feel awful about it, but we just decided that it was best for our friend group to do it.
And I’m wondering, was I asshole the doing that? And how do you deal with it when you’re the person leaving someone out? Abby, don’t kick my ass. What do you guys all say?
Amanda Doyle:
I relate to the four days later thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Isn’t that just so interesting? It’s just intellectually you can know, that’s reasonable. People do things separately, but it still just feels gross, feels really gross.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, yeah. Because you just wonder what’s wrong with me? Is that it? What’s wrong with me? Why do they not want me around? This is why I am so nervous about Alice not having a sister, is like if you don’t have an automatic number one, or someone who’s always going to pick you first, then you’re somewhere on a list and lists have boundaries and cutoffs.
And so, I think that’s the fear. If they like you and you’re in, they like you fifth, you’re sixth on the list, where it just feels like a very precarious situation because you can understand that situation, that maybe they’re just trying to have a little get together or something, but it just makes real obvious that there is an order and you rank lower or something.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you think that there is a different form of this? And this could be not right, but I’m thinking back to a time long ago when I was with a group of people who I liked very much and who were compassionate and kind to each other and good listeners. And there was one person at the gathering who was constantly bringing all the attention back to themselves. We couldn’t get anywhere, we couldn’t … every time someone would make a vulnerable thing, it couldn’t go anywhere because this person would grab it all back, grab it all … to the point where it was kind of unbelievable, and was blocking all of the connection that we were trying to make with each other. It was actually a blocker.
So I, at the end of that said to the group, “I cannot do that again.” The other person wasn’t there anymore. And I said just, “I cannot do that again. It’s such precious time and I want to get to know all of you, and I would love to spend more time together, but I can’t if that person’s going to be there.” And that was really a weird, hard thing to do, and I have no idea if it was the right or wrong thing to do. But I also knew I wasn’t going to do that again. I was not going to put myself through that waste of time, just too old for it.
I was talking to one of my wisest friends about that situation because I think about it all the time, what was the right thing to do there? And she said, “Why didn’t you say anything the whole time?”
Amanda Doyle:
While the person was there and when it happened? Like, “Whoa, whoa. Wait, hold on. I was just trying to hear what they were saying,” or something like that?
Glennon Doyle:
It happened 30 times. There was no time. There was no time when anyone was telling a story, when anyone was doing anything, where this person didn’t hijack the thing, bring it all back to themselves. And at no time, everyone did different things, sometimes somebody would stand up and leave the table, sometimes somebody would just look agitated, but at no time did anyone in the group including me, say, “Hey, I’m noticing that every time somebody starts to talk is there … what’s going on?”
Or taking personal responsibility. “I feel uncomfortable because I’m a sensitive person, and it feels to me like our friends aren’t able to share themselves because you …” At no time did I say anything in the moment, was I embodied about it. And so, I do wonder if there’s some element of that to this because we are making decisions about people in groups, without asking them why they’re being how they’re being, or giving anyone a chance to make real connection, or reveal themselves because we’re not saying anything in the moment.
I’m thinking about Lisa here and how that person was a bump on the log. What if somebody had said to her on the side, “What’s going on? I feel like I’m feeling paranoid because I feel like you’re being quiet and I don’t know if you’re feeling left out.” Are there things we could do in the moment without making sweeping decisions about each other and then cutting people off later? Because sometimes people being quiet is just really intense social anxiety, shyness, and I don’t think it’s everyone’s job to figure out, but I think about that all the time. Is there a more embodied, social way of being that in the moment when someone’s making us feel uncomfortable, we own it. We say, “I’m feeling uncomfortable. Can you tell me more about this way of being?”
Amanda Doyle:
God, it’s so uncomfortable though. I’ve done that exact same thing before in a group, where it’s just observe, get really annoyed and after be like, “Well, if we’re all going to get together, I would love to do it with you, but not in that group because it’s not valuable time for me.”
But it feels, first of all, it’s just deeply uncomfortable to say that. But second, doesn’t it feel like you are substituting your judgment for theirs? And who’s to say that your judgment reflects the rest of the groups? Theoretically, you’re the only one bothered by that. So you would have to do it from a really personal place. Like, “Oh wait, could you hold on one second? I really want to hear what Amy has to say. I feel like Amy was just getting somewhere with that story. Can we hear that?” I think you’d have to make it about what you want instead of, “You are not doing this right,” because maybe you’re the only one that feels that way.
Abby Wambach:
And also, everybody’s definition of social norms is different. We’re all raised in different families. We all have different ways about it. So, is there a way to preemptively sort this stuff out?
Because this was, the story Glennon’s talking about, this is a first experience hanging out with these women, ever. And so, we were just getting to know each other. And so yes, I see your point that you could have said something and I was also feeling the same ways that you were feeling.
Glennon Doyle:
Everybody was.
Abby Wambach:
And it’s also just got to be okay that some people aren’t going to be your people. They’re not going to be the ones that stand the test of time. And these social interactions are the information that we know who we want to carry with us into our future or not.
Glennon Doyle:
I know. I just love the idea of, I don’t have any answers about it. I just do love the idea of that’s my goal. I want to be embodied enough in moments not to be silently stewing about something and then making a sweeping decision later.
Amanda Doyle:
Totally.
Glennon Doyle:
To me, that’s more arrogant or I don’t know, that’s not right.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, and it’s also operating based on not the information.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
Sometimes you get the most information when you enter into it and say, “This is what I’m seeing. Tell me what’s happening for you.” Even in your relationship, you could be like, “You did this thing, I can’t tolerate it, so I’ve unilaterally decided we’re breaking up.” Or you can go and be like, “You did this thing and here’s what it did for me. What the fuck? Why’d you do that?” And you might find whole new things.
Glennon Doyle:
And I think it gets at, to me, the reason why this has to do with being left out, is I’m thinking a lot right now about the words. Left, out. That person probably feels very left out because there was no explanation. Because had I said something in the moment … is left-outness what happens when there’s no explanation? You’re just kind of ghosted in a way because people have made a sweeping decision about you for this reason or that and you have not been let in on it.
So had I said something, maybe it would’ve been awkward, but the thing is it wasn’t about her. It was about me and her together. It was like I am too sensitive of a human being to not feel so upset this whole time because I feel worried about everybody and that isn’t necessarily that other person’s problem. I would be taking responsibility and maybe it would be awkward and maybe we would never speak to each other again, but I don’t think they’d feel left out. I think they’d feel like there’s a chemical reaction between Glennon and me, that in order for us to make a decision going forward, we’re not going to spend time together anymore. But that would be different than left out.
Abby Wambach:
Because it gives that person an opportunity also to assess and maybe become self-reflective, or maybe it would give them the opportunity to say, “I have so much social anxiety and a way that it comes out is I just talk too much. And I’m so sorry and I give you permission to let me know that I’m being too much and I’m so sorry.” That’s actually where the closeness would come.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly, that’s intimacy.
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
Or she could say, “Listen, snowflake, this is how I am. You want rules around communication. That’s not the way I do it.” Cool. But at least in that shared vulnerability and embodiment, we were clarifying that the social together doesn’t work. There’s not just some left out without explanation.
Amanda Doyle:
But it does take vulnerability because it’s a lot easier to go out after to the people … even that was vulnerable though because I wouldn’t even have done that.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, it was. I [inaudible 00:36:54].
Amanda Doyle:
I would’ve just gone home and been like, “Well, I’ll just have to dodge those invitations for the rest of my life.” So, you were vulnerable telling the rest of the group. I wouldn’t have done either. Because you’re showing something that could get back to that person or that reveals something about you, but it would be more productive to do it in the moment.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, and I said it, “I’m too sensitive for this.” That is true, but I didn’t say that person is, “Blah, blah, blah.” I just said, “This is about me and I won’t spend my time like this anymore because I would really love to get to know you guys better and that’s what social time for me is, and that … none of that happened.”
Abby Wambach:
And it feels like maybe that could be something that you could put into practice going forward, that when we do get in certain group situations, that you preemptively have that conversation with the group that says something like, “I’m super sensitive. There’s going to be times where I might just get up from the table and walk away because I need to go regulate myself because sometimes the conversation isn’t flowing, or going in a way that feels safe to me and it’s not about you, it’s about me.” Because I do think that there’s a sense of responsibility that you do take, but if you were to take it publicly, then that would offer people a bigger understanding of who you are and how best you want to be communicated and dealt with in a communal situation.
Glennon Doyle:
It does make me think about how we just walk into social situations so we don’t have any expectations. We don’t know how it’s supposed to go, and then nobody knows how to act. I mean, that’s why people love recovery meetings. It’s because everybody knows the rules. You know that you’re going to share and no one’s going to interrupt you and no one’s going to-
Abby Wambach:
And people will stick up for you. If somebody starts to talk over you. Other people will say, “No, we don’t do that.” And I think that there needs to be a shared understanding, like a baseline of, this is how we operate.
Amanda Doyle:
But don’t you think that you evolve to that with friends that you find and you develop relationships?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
It starts with a like, “Huh.” You see them, you see how they act, you see how they speak, you see how they connect with people and you’re like, “I would like to explore that more.” So you’re immediately weeding out and weeding in always, and then you don’t develop that kind of communal culture of how you behave, until you have spent so much time and you become a little ecosystem. You become a unit. But I think it would be rather awkward or forced to be like, “I’m looking for a group of five friends. Here’s the parameters and the way we would communicate. Here’s the …”
Abby Wambach:
For sure, for sure.
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, I think with our friend Lisa here, her friend group really tried. It didn’t gel, it didn’t have chemistry. Just because you go out on one date with someone, doesn’t mean it’s like proof beyond a shadow of a doubt before you deny a second date. Yes, you could check with the person and not just assume you understand why they’re acting that way, if you really want to further invest in them, but I feel like that happens all the time. You try to get to know someone, you think it’s a fit and it’s not. Just dating and you have to be able to move on from that.
Glennon Doyle:
For sure. I think there’s something important to the … I can’t say anything because it’s just like their way of being. How do you know what’s right? How do you know what’s right? Maybe they’re right and I’m wrong. And I just really feel like that in itself we need to get away from, because that’s something I’m working on so much in therapy right now. Well, I shouldn’t feel this way. How should someone feel? And my therapist is like, “Okay, well we could figure that out, but no matter what we decide. You still feel that way” No matter how many shoulds, or rights or wrongs, this is you and you feel this way, so what are we going to do?
It isn’t about, is this person right or I’m right or do I have a right to say something because who am I to say something? It’s like that’s what a social situation is. It’s a bunch of somebodies who are creating a chemical reaction between each other and some are going to work and some are not going to work. But I do, when I think about my teacher self, I think it would’ve been cool … I understand if there’s somebody in the class who’s being a bully, or a dick, or something, I don’t know, to another kid. And that kid’s like, “I don’t want my kid to have to invite that kid to their birthday party.” I get that. My teacher heart would want to apply this to that and instead of just saying to that kid or that mom, “You’re not invited.” I would love to have a talk with a mom and be like, “Here’s why he’s not invited. It’s because he’s doing this and this and this and it’s hurting her feelings and we’re trying to teach her that she gets to have people who treat her well in her circle. But it’s not that you’re being left out, it’s that you’re being deliberately dis-invited because your behavior is hurting that person.” There’s a starting place.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s so true because left out connotes a passivity and incidentality and it’s through neglect that that happened. As opposed through very conscious curating that that happened and that’s a very different beast. But also practically speaking, unless you have a teacher who’s going to do that intervention, I don’t feel any obligation or sense of responsibility to go to the people.
Glennon Doyle:
No, I know.
Amanda Doyle:
Especially if they have been reacting negatively in a bullying way to my kids and explain to those people, who inherently I see as not worthy of my trust, why they’re not invited to my kids’ party.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That’s why I’m like, it’s a teacher perspective. As a teacher, I would like to know that, so I could explain. Because that is the role of the leader of … you know what I’m saying?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
I also think for Lisa’s sake, first of all, no, I don’t want to kick your ass. I think that you’re wonderful and this is stuff that all of us are dealing with. I mean, talk about those of us who are sober. We’ve had to put a lot of people in our rear-view mirror because they aren’t really good for me. It doesn’t mean I don’t love or care for some of the friends that I’ve had in my life. It just means that those relationships were not the relationships I wanted to keep in my present, A. And then B, I also think you not including this woman 10 years ago, there’s no such thing as one-way liberation. Maybe she hated being around you guys too.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s so true.
Abby Wambach:
Who knows?
Amanda Doyle:
It’s so true. Maybe she’s like, “Oh my God, these ladies just talk and talk, but I don’t know how to break up with them.”
Abby Wambach:
And maybe she’s sitting with a group of her friends that are more like her, that are more true for her, that are more her speed. I do believe that we’re all trying to do our best, and these are the kind of things that I think you can forgive yourself over. You can let this one go. It’s been 10 years, baby.
Glennon Doyle:
But I love that you’re not yet, Lisa. I’m with you on the never letting go. Okay. I want to read an email to all of you that we got from a Pod Squadder and it was in response to episode 277 when we were talking about Girls Just Wanna, with Brandi Carlile. Here it is.
“Hey, Glennon and Abby and Amanda. I just listened to the most recent episode about Brandi’s Girls Just Wanna Weekend. Needless to say, this event is definitely on my bucket list right next to my Dream Ladies brunch, which of course includes the three of you along with Brandi, and a few other fabulous women.
“There was a comment in this episode that made me pause. Abby mentioned the quote straight families that were there, moms, dads, and their children, and I just wanted to acknowledge the possibility that these families may have included bisexual people. We bis sometimes feel like we straddle two worlds, unable to feel a true sense of belonging in hetero and gay spheres, and …”
You keep reading. Why is that making me so emotional? Just go ahead.
Abby Wambach:
That’s so sweet
Glennon Doyle:
Keep going. “True sense of belonging.”
Abby Wambach:
“Unable to feel a true sense of belonging in hetero and gay spheres and bi erasure is real. Just some friendly food for thought. Love you all and your podcast means so much to me. Peace, love, and all good things. Angie from Minneapolis.”
Wow, Angie. Thank you for bringing this to my attention because my goodness, you’re right.
Glennon Doyle:
So right, and it makes me think of when we were talking to Allison Russell when we were having that conversation with Allison Russell. And Allison is bisexual and married to a man, and we were laughing because Alison, I said, “Do you ever just want to walk around going, but I’m queer too. I’m queer too.” And she held up her arm, she was wearing rainbow headband, rainbow wristbands. It’s part of her identity that is invisible, but she is such a part of the queer community, but can’t be signaling that all the time and feels left out. Yes, Angie.
Abby Wambach:
Yes, totally. And I just want to just say, I love you.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow. Angie, thank you for that. That helped my brain. That helped my brain a lot.
Amanda Doyle:
I know, it makes you think for all the people we’re worried about that we know we’re quote unquote, leaving out. Think of all the people that we’re just inadvertently leaving out in just everyday language, and it’s really something to think about.
Glennon Doyle:
And invisible identity is a whole thing. We should talk about that more. That’s so …
Abby Wambach:
Well, I mean, I am thinking about it now and it’s so profound to think about being a bisexual woman who’s ended up marrying a man and has had a family and has a longing for this other thing, and that they get to experience it at Girls Just Wanna Weekend, and that they have such a loving partner, that they want to be able to provide that experience of that feminine energy, that feminine kind of love-
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, that’s cool.
Abby Wambach:
… that they’re longing for. That is truly a beautiful, beautiful thing. Absolutely.
Glennon Doyle:
Thanks, Angie.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay. We have a very special Pod Squadder to end with. Pod Squadder of the week named Grace.
Grace:
Hi, Abby, Glennon, and Amanda, I just wanted to say I’m Grace. I’m 10 years old. I’m in fifth grade and I’m a girl and I had some girl drama in the past year and this year and it’s been really hard for me because I felt really alone. And this podcast has really, really helped make me feel like I have more than just people that I can believe in myself without needing anyone else’s approval. And I really love listening to you guys and my mom let me listen to the episode about farting, it was really good. I liked that one because my family’s big farters. Bye.
Abby Wambach:
Why did that make you cry so much, babe?
Glennon Doyle:
Because I love ten-year-old girls so much.
Abby Wambach:
Tell me more.
Glennon Doyle:
Can someone else talk?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. I feel like I can’t believe in myself without needing anyone else’s approval. That is really something. That is very, very cool, Grace. You are very cool, Grace, and you have figured that out in the fifth grade and I figured that out-
Glennon Doyle:
From Grace just now.
Amanda Doyle:
… from Grace at 44. So, I love that. I love that you have a mama who’s talking to you about these things. I love that you have a family of farters because the family that farts together, stays together. I really feel good about what you’re going to do, Grace, and who you are, and I love that you’re not alone and I love knowing that we’re not alone and we have you, Grace.
Abby Wambach:
Can I tell you something, Grace? It’s not too often that a listener has such a massive impact on my wife here, and I think because you’re 10, it’s really special for Glennon because she’s able to re-parent her little ten-year-old self. And you just gave her a big gift just now.
And I just want to tell you that to all the Pod Squadders, this isn’t just a one-way street here. We’re learning so much about ourselves from all of these emails and voicemails and the Pod Squadders of the week, and little Gracie. This isn’t just like a podcast that we put out so that we can help people like you. This is also a podcast that we put out because we know that people like you help us. So we love you so much.
Glennon Doyle: Love you, Grace. We can do hard things. Bye.