Your Joy & Pride Infusion for Today!
June 9, 2023
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome back to the most delightful week ever on We Can Do Hard Things. Tuesday, we spoke with Ross Gay about how to notice delight and joy in our everyday lives. And yesterday, we shared our own personal, delightful things. So today, we thought we’d close the week by bringing you something special, so that we’re not just discussing delight, but we’re actually experiencing it together. Today, we welcome a pair of talented musicians and love bugs having an incredible moment right now with a video for their viral track, If I Were A Fish. I think it now has 18.1 million views on the TikTok. I don’t know.
Glennon Doyle:
So Corook wrote this song called CGI about being an underdog, they say, that somehow got the girl of their dreams. After they published that song, they got so many hateful responses from the lovely interwebs that they were devastated, okay? So they sat with that devastation for a while, mined it for gold, and then created the song, If I Were A Fish. They took that shit from the internet, and they turned it into joyful gold, which we are obsessed with. And so, we invited them here. I have to tell you two, Corook and Olivia, that Abby and I are old, and we were standing in our kitchen one night recently. And our daughters listened to a thing called the TikTok, okay?
Olivia Barton:
The TikTok, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
We are on the Instagram, because we are a different queer generation than you.
Corook:
Understood.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, thank you. Sometimes we see what you’re doing on the TikTok. There’s something called the reels.
Olivia Barton:
The reels.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay? About a year and a half later than you’re doing them. Okay? So what happened is Amma was in the kitchen playing this song and I was like, “What the hell is that song? That is the best song I’ve ever heard.” And Abby, me, Tish, Amma, we sat around and sang your song that night and I don’t know, it was the antidote of everything terrible.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re the antidote of everything terrible.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
No pressure.
Corook:
Oh, that is so cool. That’s the coolest compliment I’ve ever gotten, that’s for sure.
Glennon Doyle:
Before we get into your song, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and how the hell all this happened? Because, I mean, apparently, I’m not the only person who thought that that song was the best thing ever. I think there’s something like 20 million other people at this point who also agreed. How the hell did this all happen for you two?
Corook:
So we’re both musicians-
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, you are.
Corook:
… who live in Nashville. We’ve been making… Do you want me to move this over?
Olivia Barton:
I want you to talk into it.
Corook:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
It’s basically… Oh my gosh, you do what I do with Glennon.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re the Abby.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re the Abby to her.
Corook:
Yes, we are a couple. We live together. We live here in Nashville together. We have a dog and we make music all the time and that’s-
Olivia Barton:
Separately and together. Most of the time, separately, but this time was together.
Corook:
Right. That day specifically was just a really hard day on the internet, which I’m sure you know about.
Glennon Doyle:
We do.
Corook:
I was just getting a lot of hate comments, and continue to, and it’s a really hard thing to deal with, especially as somebody that I’m just coming into my adulthood and accepting myself for who I am. I recently came out as non-binary, and so to be getting these hate comments during this time that I’m trying to come to terms with who I am and love myself has been really hard. And so I kind of brought that to Olivia and she was like, “Well, yeah, you’re weird and that’s awesome, and I love that about you, and let’s put this into something good and let’s make a song about how weird you are. What’s the weirdest thing that you can think of?” And I was like, “Well, if I were a fish, I think all the weird things about me would be cool.”
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Corook:
Right?
Olivia Barton:
I feel like all these things that people are hating on me for just because I was a human, but if I was just something else, they would think it was super cool that I was big and colorful and weird. I would be a catch.
Corook:
And she was like, “That’s the weirdest thing I’ve ever heard. Let’s do it.”
Olivia Barton:
“Let’s do that.” Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It’s perfect.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God. Okay. Now I thought we were just going to talk about the song, but you’re just such love bugs. How did you meet and fall… What is this story?
Olivia Barton:
Oh…
Corook:
Oh…
Olivia Barton:
Well, we have identified with you guys a lot because I was in a straight relationship and Corrine came along and the rest is history, I guess. I don’t know.
Corook:
We’ve been together-
Olivia Barton:
We met in Boston, we went to school in Boston, music school. We met there. It was quite the U-Haul situation. Love if not at first sight, very quickly thereafter. And so-
Corook:
We’ve been together for almost five years. June is our five-year anniversary.
Abby Wambach:
That’s so cute.
Olivia Barton:
I feel like we’ve lived a lot of life in the last five years because this is just this time. Your mid-twenties is just so much change, so much self-discovery, so we’ve seen lots of versions of each other at this point.
Glennon Doyle:
I like that. Lots of versions of each other.
Abby Wambach:
It’s really cool and it also gets better.
Glennon Doyle:
I just want to tell everybody who’s listening, I made Amma show me your various TikTok sites and such, and there are so many beautiful songs. This is just one of them. They’re all so good and they’re all about being human, and they’re so honest. They made me feel less alone. You all are doing really, really beautiful things.
Abby Wambach:
I didn’t know that If I Were A Fish was a gay anthem. It’s so fucking cool. I didn’t know.
Amanda Doyle:
I did.
Corook:
Yeah, you could smell it. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
You could…
Corook:
You could smell the queer.
Olivia Barton:
Something’s fishy here.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s exactly right. No, that was good. It was really good.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
What’s it been like with all this attention now? Is it okay? Are you freaking out? Are you okay?
Abby Wambach:
Oh, yeah.
Corook:
Oh, we’re freaking out.
Abby Wambach:
Freaking out.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, you’re freaking out. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Are you getting asked to do lots of gigs and all the things now? Are you proper rock stars?
Corook:
I mean-
Abby Wambach:
Proper rock stars.
Corook:
I mean, well, I don’t know. We’ll see. Yeah, my year is insane right now. I can’t believe all the things that I have. They’re all wonderful, but also really hard to get used to in terms of scheduling and what my life was going to look like throughout the next six months. But yeah, it’s been a struggle of that and trying to be in the moment and love everything and accept the love that we have been given. And also try to combat the hate comments and try not to look at those. I personally am having a much harder time than you maybe around that.
Olivia Barton:
Well, I think it’s just with the sheer volume of attention, there’s going to be difficulty to that. My dad put it really well when we were talking to my parents about just how it feels to receive all that attention and the negative and the positive. And my dad was talking about the law of… Gosh, I don’t know anything about science guys, but basically it was an equal reaction, like an equal… So the amount of positivity.
Amanda Doyle:
Equal and opposite reaction?
Olivia Barton:
Yes, there you go, Amanda. Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Olivia Barton:
The amount of positivity you’re putting out, it’s attracting the opposite. And so almost like to gauge how much joy you’re putting into the world, like looking at that negativity as a way to gauge how much of yourself you’re putting into it, so-
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Olivia Barton:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It’s so good. I mean, coming from a sports background, I used to get called dyke, I’d be booed in stadiums, like harsh, harsh shit. And I realized as I got older, and maybe my stats kind of started to go down as they do when you get a little bit older, they stopped booing me as much and I was like, oh, they were scared of me. That’s what that all-
Glennon Doyle:
Or jealous.
Abby Wambach:
… was. Or jealous or whatever. It had nothing to do with them not accepting me. They just were worried about me crushing them. And I think the same goes for all the trolls and all the negativity that happens on social media. So I think your dad’s onto something.
Glennon Doyle:
And listen, I can see in your face little one pink fish, you are going to have to be careful with paying attention to this shit, because I think Olivia’s all right with this. But I’m relating to you right now and in order to do the art that you are meant to do, you’re going to have to stay really soft skinned.
Corook:
That’s so funny you say that. I think this whole thing has been a lesson of how sensitive I am. And coming into my adulthood is that is something I have been accepting for the first time. It’s like I am sensitive and that hurt my feelings and-
Olivia Barton:
I’m over here all the time. I’m hurt all the time. But Corrine has been the one pretending they’re not hurt, and now they’re like-
Corook:
Now I’m hurt.
Abby Wambach:
… wait, I think I am hurt.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh. So that’s a gift. Look at you. You’re a sensitive little fish.
Corook:
Yes. And I think that there’s so much art to make from that place-
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Corook:
… is what I’ve learned. That’s just where my best stuff comes from, and I do, you’re right. I have to stay soft, open and soft. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I had this friend named Rachel Held Evans, and she has passed, but she used to get lots of hate mail and she would print it, out and then she would sit in her room and turn it all into origami, into little teeny swans.
Corook:
Quite literally-
Olivia Barton:
Oh my gosh.
Corook:
… making art out of it.
Olivia Barton:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Olivia Barton:
That’s amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
But you don’t have to make the art right away because that’s just hustle culture. All right? So you’re allowed to feel the feelings, sit in it, and then make something beautiful eventually.
Abby Wambach:
I would also have people around you that can armor for you, that can kind of protect you from some of the stuff. Like Amanda has been Glennon’s kind of-
Glennon Doyle:
Blocker.
Abby Wambach:
… the blocker of stuff. So it allows Glennon to be open. And then I came along and helped in that department, so-
Glennon Doyle:
I just pretend everybody likes me, and then it goes back.
Olivia Barton:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I do.
Olivia Barton:
That’s good. Our mutual best friend told us the other day that he read some of the hate comments and Corrine started to cry and was like, I didn’t realize how good that would feel for someone else to even just know what is being said and-
Corook:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Corook:
That was a good one.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s not creative. That’s the other thing. I can tell you guys respect creativity, that it’s only going to be the same five things over and over again forever. You don’t have to read it anymore. You’ve already seen it all.
Corook:
You’re so right. You’re so right.
Olivia Barton:
Oh, we needed you guys.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re done.
Olivia Barton:
We thought you were interviewing us, but really, we’re just soaking in all your wisdom.
Corook:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s so freeing.
Corook:
Guys, you want to know what’s funny?
Glennon Doyle:
What’s funny? Tell us something funny.
Olivia Barton:
Don’t tell them.
Corook:
We didn’t know that we were going to meet you guys today.
Glennon Doyle:
What?
Corook:
You guys came on and we were like-
Olivia Barton:
We didn’t…
Corook:
… what is happening?
Olivia Barton:
We’re like oh, we’re going to talk to them now. Okay.
Corook:
Yeah, no big deal.
Glennon Doyle:
Whose podcast did you think you were on?
Corook:
Well-
Glennon Doyle:
Did you get tricked?
Olivia Barton:
We thought it was a different host.
Corook:
It was called Delight Podcast. And we were like, but theirs is called We Can Do Hard Things. And so we were like-
Olivia Barton:
We didn’t know what was happening, and we were like, okay, we’re just going to meet the people we’ve been listening to for years. It’s fine.
Olivia Barton:
Oh.
Olivia Barton:
Yeah.
Olivia Barton:
Listen.
Olivia Barton:
We’re happy to be here. Yeah.
Corook:
Well-
Abby Wambach:
And listen, to walk the walk that you guys are walking, everything that comes your way will help you learn something more about yourself. When something hurts that you read, you’re like, ooh, I didn’t know that that was something that I needed to uncover. I didn’t know that that hasn’t been resolved for me. So for me, people always are misgendering me. They think that I’m a dude, it’s fine. I dress non-binary. It’s kind of part of the fun that I like to have, but it actually really upsets me. So every time I read those comments that you’re just a guy or whatever, I’m immediately reminded, oh, you still have work to do here on that. You still have work to do here on that. Just something to think about.
Amanda Doyle:
Or you could also just catch and release.
Olivia Barton:
True.
Amanda Doyle:
Catch and release. That’s the best.
Olivia Barton:
True.
Glennon Doyle:
Bless and block. We call it bless and block.
Abby Wambach:
We love a good block party.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, we do.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I also think that most people spend their entire lives scared to death that people are going to say something or other/
Olivia Barton:
Oh my God.
Glennon Doyle:
They spend their entire lives making decisions, not doing the thing just to avoid someone saying the thing.
Olivia Barton:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So when someone says the thing and it’s public, you’re fucking free.
Olivia Barton:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
You guys are free.
Olivia Barton:
Right. There’s nothing to be afraid of anymore.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right. The worst has been said.
Glennon Doyle:
The worst came and it’s not so bad.
Abby Wambach:
Still alive, still breathing, still doing the thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Still fucking fishing over there. Still fishing.
Glennon Doyle:
We love you. And if you need help, we can be your queer old reels aunties.
Olivia Barton:
You already have done that. I just love that this is what we’re talking about because the genesis of the song was about this, and we actually haven’t talked about this with anybody at this point. So-
Corook:
I think that if there’s time, I would like to bring up one delightful thing-
Glennon Doyle:
Please.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Corook:
… about the experience, which I don’t think is talked about enough.
Abby Wambach:
Cool. I love this.
Corook:
From that whole genesis of the song of me saying, this hurts, help me. You didn’t go, oh, no, no, no, no. It’s okay. It’s okay. It’s okay. Let’s just do this and we’ll do this and we’ll do this and it’ll be fine. Don’t worry. You don’t have to feel that way. You were like, ouch. What do you want to do about it? Let’s make something out of this. And I think that for us, that has been a really long road of getting to a place where we can hold space for each other’s pain. And I think that also, that’s part of why the video is so big, because they can sense between us just how much there is. And for me, it’s healing.
Olivia Barton:
Yeah. And we wouldn’t have gotten to that place if we hadn’t spent the couple of hours before it really going there together and crying about it together, and then getting up and doing that. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Delight.
Olivia Barton:
Delightful.
Abby Wambach:
You two are a delight.
Glennon Doyle:
Will you sing the song for us?
Olivia Barton:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Corook:
Okay. Wait, we set this up earlier.
Olivia Barton:
Okay. We’re going to have to switch our little mics over.
Abby Wambach:
All righty.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God. I’m so excited. Okay. We’re not going to sing.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t know if it’s going to be possible-`
Glennon Doyle:
And then we’ll sing it again later, but I want to hear their voices. I’m muting myself just so-
Abby Wambach:
I’m just going to like-
Amanda Doyle:
I’m muting myself so I don’t accidentally.
Abby Wambach:
I’m just going to.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m not muting myself.
Abby Wambach:
I’m moving the mic away from my face.
Olivia Barton:
Okay.
Corook:
No, that comes closer?
Olivia Barton:
Yeah.
Corook:
Ready?
Olivia Barton:
Okay. Not too close to that one. Okay.
Corook:
Ready?
Olivia Barton:
Maybe.
Corook:
Thanks.
Corook and Olivia Barton (singing):
If I were a fish and you caught me
You’d say, “Look at that fish”
Shimmering in the sun
Such a rare one
Can’t believe that you caught one
If I were a fish and you caught me
You’d say, “Look at that fish”
Heaviest in the sea
You’d win first prize
If you caught me
Why’s everybody on the internet so mean?
Why’s everybody so afraid of what they’ve never seen?
If I was scrolling through and I saw me
Flopping around and singing my song
I’d say, “Damn, they’re cute” and sing along
If I were a rock you would pick me up
And say, “That’s a nice rock”
Skippiest on the lake
Plop, plop, plop
I’m the perfect shape
And if I were a sock you would put me on
And say, “That’s a nice sock”
Happiest as a pair
I found you now I’m not scared
Why’s everybody on the internet so mean?
Why’s everybody so afraid of what they’ve never seen?
If I was scrolling through and I saw me
Flopping around and singing my song
I’d say, “Damn, they’re cute” and sing along
How lucky are we?
Of all the fish in the sea?
You get to be you
And I get to be me
Just let ’em be mean
We’re as free as can be
To be the you-est of you
And the me-est of me
If I were a fish
Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo
If I were a fish
Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo
If I were a fish
Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo
If I were a fish
Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo
Abby Wambach:
Oh, yes. It’s so fun. It’s the funnest.
Glennon Doyle:
Delight
Olivia Barton:
Delight.
Amanda Doyle:
Delight.
Glennon Doyle:
So you two, this is your permission to go forth and be artists, thinkers, and seers, and feelers, and noticers, and observers of things. And not to be lawyers who follow around your art and defend it and forever defend your right to make art. You don’t have to do that. That’s what takes people out of the game. Not because they’re not artists, but because they’re not lawyers.
Olivia Barton:
Yeah. Oh my goodness gracious. You don’t know how badly we needed to hear that.
Glennon Doyle:
If the question is, do you get to make beautiful shit and put it out in the world? The answer is, absolutely. The rest you don’t have to do. Okay?
Olivia Barton:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
Because we need it.
Olivia Barton:
Okay, okay.
Glennon Doyle:
We need you to keep doing this.
Olivia Barton:
Thank you.
Corook:
Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
We love you both. Call your queer Instagram aunties if you need us.
Olivia Barton:
Beautiful.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay?
Olivia Barton:
All three of you are our aunties. Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
Aw, we love you.
Amanda Doyle:
What a delight you are. Thanks for coming on.
Olivia Barton:
Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you so much. Bye pod squad.
Olivia Barton:
Thank you guys.
Olivia Barton:
Bye.
Olivia Barton:
Bye.
Glennon Doyle:
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us If you’d be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you’ll never miss an episode and it helps us because you’ll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you’re there, if you’d be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 Studios.