Fighting Well: Is your conflict style making or breaking your relationships?
June 22, 2021
Glennon Doyle:
Hi, everybody. Glennon here. Thank you so much for joining me again for We Can Do Hard Things. I’m thrilled to tell you that today’s episode is about fighting. What I mean by that is this, I think that every lover is a fighter because when we’re trying to love each other well, what we’re really trying to do is know each other deeply, right? What we really want is to be known deeply and to deeply know the other and to know each other deeply, there always has to be some stretching, some extra trying some conflict, right? So today we’re talking about conflict with obviously Sister and also with Abby. Abby is the person I love the most. So also the person I fight with the most and what we learned during COVID was that really most of our conflicts are the same five fights over and over and over, and that they always have to do with once again, love and control. So let’s jump right in to Five Fights.
GD:
Well, hello everybody. I am here with my two favorite people, my sister, Amanda, and my wife Abby. Say hello, thank you for being excited to be here.
Abby Wambach:
Hello, Glennon!
Amanda Doyle:
Hello.
GD:
The reason the three of us are here today is because we wanted to speak about something hard, which is this, this is a hard thing in the center of Abby and I’s relationship, which let’s just say that babe, our relationship has been discussed in many beautiful ways and people rightly assume and know that we have a beautiful love story, right?
AW:
So gorgeous.
GD:
Yes, yes. And we are deeply in love with each other. And we also drive each other bat crazy sometimes. Would you agree with that?
AW:
That is also very true. Yes. We are human beings who are married to each other.
GD:
Yes. Yes. And one of the things that we noticed during COVID, this time where we had, oh, so much togetherness. Oh. So much family time. Which taught us that an interesting thing was that it felt a little bit like our days and our arguments were like Groundhog day. Like we were having the same freaking fights over and over and over again. Did you feel that that was true?
AW:
Yes. And you know, you just never kept learning the lesson that I was hoping you were going to learn.
GD:
And babe, vice versa. Vice versa.
AW:
You can’t steal my joke though. Come on.
GD:
No, it was good. Really good. So, we actually started talking to a couple other couples and they also felt like they were having the same fights over and over again. So we thought maybe this is a universal thing that couples have the same fights over and over again. So today the hard thing that we are bringing to you is our five fights. Right? The fights we have again and again.
AW:
Buckle up, folks. So you’re going to find there are Team Abby and Team Glennon fans. Which one are you?
GD:
And I just want to say, I just want to say right off the bat that I don’t want people to think that I am not aware that most people are on your side. I understand it. I understand that you’re more lovable, truly, you are my favorite kind of person, babe, but as it goes, I am who I am. And so these are the fights that we get into again and again.
AW:
What are they? Tell me which ones you’re bringing to the table.
GD:
Okay. I’m going to tell you the five I’m bringing to the table. Okay. And just as a disclaimer, we discussed this last night. Okay.
AW:
So as to not actually get into a fight.
GD:
Exactly, exactly. And you agreed that these are ours and there was really no surprise because it’s obvious. Number one is food, all things around food. Okay. Number two has to do with talking. We will get into that. Okay. Number three is money. Number four is absentmindedness.
AW:
Yup. Big one.
GD:
Okay. Wild guess about whose absentmindedness it is. And then our fifth fight is that we fight about how we’re fighting. Okay. So there’s like the issue. And then we start fighting about how we’re fighting and then we can’t remember what we even started fighting about. We’re not going to be able to talk at length about all of these things, because there are five things. So let’s try to succinctly, I want to know how you would define our food issue because it’s a lot of things. How would you describe it in a general way?
AW:
The way I grew up and my relationship with food is different than the way you grew up in your relationship with food in a lot of ways that we are at odds with each other almost all the time. I have food scarcity issues. I used to overeat. I actually don’t anymore. I need to stop saying it like that. You have restriction issues from your whole world of food. And so I think that because of that, we both were probably at the beginning super attracted to this thing, like, oh, she has this freedom with food. And the more that you got to know me, you understood that I was in the same cage that you were in just in the opposite way. So we’ll be ordering food and I over-order, and that’s triggering for you and some of your food stuff that you’ve dealt with throughout your life. I actually think that we, Adam Grant kind of helped us recently with us.
GD:
Well that’s cause he was on your side.
AW:
But don’t you feel like it’s a little bit better?
GD:
Well, his point was okay. We described the situation where Abby will walk into our house and we ordered pizza. Right. We’re gonna order pizza and there will be four of us or five of us and Abby will walk in with five pizzas. Maybe that’s a little bit of an exaggeration, maybe it’s four pizzas for five people or something. Okay. This is extremely triggering to me because number one, I was raised never to waste anything. Wasting was like sacrilegious. Right. And then two, because I have had such issues with restriction and growing up and my whole life it scares me to have that much food around is the only way that I can explain it. It freaks me out. Right. But it makes Abby feel safe to have more food, right. To have enough, she’d rather throw it away and, and have felt like there was enough to feel safe. And Adam said, well, isn’t it great that that Abby can have safety and all it costs you guys is like a few extra bucks. Isn’t that lovely. And so, yeah, go ahead, Sister.
AD:
I think extremely relevant here is the fact that Abby was the youngest of seven children growing up. So in order to understand the scarcity issues and the being left with the leftovers that were not enough for her, I just think it’s important that part of the equation feels important.
GD:
Yes.
AW:
Yes. And also we can disregard Adam Grant’s theory for just a second. I think it’s a good theory, but I also think, you know, we have kind of come to terms with like some of these fights, like who it matters more to, right? Because you have dealt with much worse circumstantial stuff around food that 80% of the time, I defer to making sure that you feel safe and comfortable, but quite frankly, the way we’ve landed is if we ever order pizzas, I over order. Sometimes lately you’ve been ordering, which has been wonderful. I do have some anxiety, but when I do order and I order an extra pizza, I just promise you that we’ll eat it for leftovers.
GD:
That does help. That helps me. But there’s another food issue that we have decided matters more to you and that I just have to arrange myself. And that is your complete and utter refusal to share.
AW:
Yeah. I’m calling marriage on that. Right.
GD:
So like if you get a milkshake, right. And I don’t.
AW:
You choose not to, and you don’t get one.
GD:
But like, I really just want a sip of a milkshake.
AW:
Then get your own milkshake. You can do that. You have every moment and I give you the option. I sometimes order two, just to be safe so that I can everything in my milkshake cup.
GD:
Yeah. I hear you. I mean, I understand that that the world is divided on this.
AW:
There is the right way that that’s how I operate in this way. And then there is your way, which is completely wrong.
GD:
Right. Yeah. Okay. So that’s helpful. So sister, could you weigh in here? What do you think is correct here? Because I just think that first of all, truthfully, I mean, what’s underneath all of this because one of the things we figured out is with our fights, there’s always something that’s really deeper underneath. So this is really not about milkshakes and the idea that, because I’m a person with eating disorder issues, I just want a taste of something, but I don’t allow myself to have a whole thing. Right. It goes back to the restriction stuff. So that is an experience with food that feels safe to me that I can have a sip and taste it, but I can’t allow myself the whole thing. And I actually don’t even want the whole thing. But then I also understand just wanting to keep your own milkshake. What do you think, Sister? Which one of us are you in your relationship?
AD:
It’s funny. Cause, I’m more you from the standpoint, obviously of the way we grew up and what is my core kind of negative self-dialogue that manifest this way. But I think that it’s interesting to think of it from a safety perspective for both of you, because you don’t feel safe with that much food in your house because you know, all of the days of bingeing. It’s like an invitation to relapse. But it makes sense that Abby doesn’t feel safe knowing that you won’t cross a boundary and take her stuff. Like she doesn’t have this safety of boundary around her food, probably like she didn’t for, you know, if there was one thing of ice cream in her freezer and she had six siblings who she never knew if it was going to be there when she wanted to have it. So that’s a lack of like safety too. So I just think a lot of these things break down into this key thing of like, you actually are two separate people. Unfortunately I hate to be the one to announce it to you.
GD:
Are you sure you feel that that’s right?
AD:
I’m a hundred percent sure.
AW:
I want to be the same. I want to be enmeshed.
AD:
We need an actual therapist on here. So I just feel like, I don’t know. I feel like the food in the house is a harder one. But I also think it could even be something like, you just have to have a boundary around her food that she orders. Like you cannot cross that, that feels like since you know that about her.
GD:
I know and I think that we have done that and what I think we’ll find out about all of these five fights is it’s just fascinating that Abby’s ability to be free and indulge is for sure one of the things that I found most attractive about her. And I think one of the things she found most attractive about me was my ability to be disciplined. Right. And so it’s like the thing that you want from each other is always the thing that you end up resenting about resenting, right? But also it’s beautiful. Like what she has taught me to have joy and freedom and for food to be a celebratory experience. So it’s just the Venn diagram of where that like overlaps.
GD:
Our next one is talking is endlessly fascinating to me. Okay.
AW:
Oh, gosh. Yes.
GD:
Because this issue of talking is about oversharing. Okay. And I feel like people listening would probably think that since I’m the writer, since I’m the memoirist, that it would be that I’m the over-sharer and that is the opposite of our situation. Right. One of our most frequent arguments is that Abby has said something or shared something that makes me, how would you describe it?
AW:
Yeah. So not that this is an excuse. It’s just evidence that I grew up in this big family. I actually just recently went back and saw them for the first time since COVID started. And I was in the room. And I remember having this thought that I was so grateful that Glennon and you weren’t with me for like the first time, because it was so loud and it was so intense and there was 15 people in this room and there were all talking at the exact same time and nobody was listening and nothing was getting heard and nothing was really getting said, and this was the anti-communication. And what ended up happening was I started to overshare something and I came home and I told you about this experience. And you were upset with me that I shared this information. And what I realized is being from a big family where nothing is really said, like the more gossipy or the more you can share with people gets a little bit more traction. So there’s more attention that’s put on you. And, and being in a big, loud space is like almost a trigger for me. So long story short, I’m a loud talker, which is annoying. I understand I’m an interrupter, which is very annoying. I now understand. And this oversharing bit, has complicated your trust in me to be able to share stuff with me, knowing that I won’t share it with the freaking postal worker outside. Like I see somebody I’m like, oh, I can’t wait to talk to them. And I am an extrovert, but there’s a part of me that’s like immaturity inside of me that I do want to work on. Um, that can’t be, can’t wait to be the one to share it, if that makes sense.
AD:
So is it the substance? Is it like, because I didn’t know this about you too, is it there’s something that you Glen and have thought it was just between you two and Abby shares it with someone else. It can be something that’s just between us. It could be something that’s I’ve considered to be gossipy and not our business and something like that. And I feel like since Abby is who she is, when she talks, people listen to her and like it’s like the food thing. I am super disciplined about the things that I say in a way that I feel, and I think through how it’s going to make them feel and them feel and them feel to the point where on a spectrum where they could be either.
AW:
And that’s not healthy either.
GD:
Yeah, exactly. It could be considered almost like manipulative, I think, or like overly controlling or Abby calls it witchy. But then on the other spectrum is just saying whatever whenever and not thinking about how that person’s going to feel or that person’s going to feel or the repercussions.
AD:
I have a question about that then. Is it related to the substance of the information, as in you feel that the dispersal of that information could have a damaging effect on someone?
GD:
Yes.
AD:
Or is it that as opposed to the fact that Abby shared that reflects negatively, nearly on me?
GD:
No.
AW:
It’s because it’s going to come back to somebody and hurt someone, especially somebody in our immediate family, like watch out, like, if I’ve said something that exposes our children or Glennon in any way, or you, Sister, she has a complete allergic reaction to that. Rightfully so, I’m not defending myself here. And that’s when I’m like, oh yeah, I’ve gone and done it again. There we go.
GD:
So it’s interesting. I think when you’re in a big family, you speak to exist. Abby has said to me many times, I feel like if I don’t talk, I don’t exist. Right? So it’s like getting a word in edgewise and that’s where the interrupting comes in or and we had issues in the beginning of our relationship, which you know, one of the reasons I felt so madly in love with you is the way you are with people in a room and your presence is so huge. And your being is so huge. And I am much more in a social situation, I am much more quiet and much more introverted. Right. So we used to have issues where we would go somewhere and we’d come home and Abby would be like, wasn’t that amazing? And I would be like, but you didn’t notice that I didn’t say one word the whole time we were there. You didn’t even notice I didn’t speak a word.
AW:
That’s not the life that I lived before I met you. People just ingratiated. And is that a word?
AD:
Yes.
AW:
Yeah. They were ingratiated in what I was saying and the selfish Abby, the former pro athlete, Abby, when I was in it, like people it’s, it’s embarrassing to think about those early days. And you know, I remember feeling like, oh, she’s trying to change me. You know? Like she’s trying to change my personality, but the truth is, especially something like this, that’s so important being heard and listening, finding some semblance of a middle. Cause you know, I didn’t want to make you feel like you were completely disappeared in a room next to me. Like I wanted you to have your own space and take up your own space.
GD:
Yeah. And I think that’s just, I’ve talked to so many friends who have that dynamic. There’s like one big personality and there’s one, maybe that is a little bit quieter. And so it’s that both people want to be seen. And so it sometimes falls a little bit more on the bigger personality to leave deliberate and intentional space for the other person who isn’t going to just jump in.
AW:
Yep. That’s hard for me. I would remember. I would have to like…
GD:
Sister, she goes like sometimes when we’re sitting, I will see her because she does it like when we’re sitting with the kids and she’s trying to actively let them talk and not interrupt. She holds her lips together, like a duck. She literally closes her lips like this ..
AD:
But that could also go to an extreme, right. I mean, both with the food and the, the talking, if you know, you also don’t want this dynamic to, to be such that Abby is I, am I, am I doing it right? Am I allowed to, am I be being policed in this space? Am I talking too much so that you’re not at ease because then the, you can try to please someone to death and not be at ease in yourself. And that’s awful.
GD:
Yeah.
AW:
The news about that. And I think we got to go onto the money, but the good news about that Sister is that these two specific topics are topics. I really want to be more mature and understand more. So though it might look like on the surface that like, oh, Glennon has a little bit of a need for more control in certain circumstances. Like in these areas, these are some of the things that I feel the most embarrassment and shame are on my own personality. Maybe not shame, but just, I feel embarrassed like when I’m interrupting people and I feel like this immaturity rise in me that I need to say something otherwise, like I want to work on those things. Right. And it, of course I would end up choosing a partner like Glennon who could help me work through that.
GD:
And same, I mean, I feel embarrassed about my hyper vigilance in every room, right? I love about you, that you are free and open and not, you know, they call people high self-monitors or low self-monitors. So a high self-monitor is someone who’s constantly like, worried about how this just, you know, sometimes changing, but, but always monitoring how they speak, what they speak. And I think that is anxiety producing for other people too. I think one of the reasons people love you so much is that you are just yourself all the time. And so it’s like, all of these things are things that we both are mirroring for each other that we’re both working on. Either one of us is like, do it my way. Like, I don’t know. Last thing I want is for Abby to be me, Jesus.
AD:
No, that’d be a disaster.
AW:
We had to work through like dealing with that instant denial or argumentative or just dismissal. Like, no, like, because of course I make fun of the fact that like, no, I don’t want you to touch any of my milkshake. And I actually truly deeply don’t want you to, but if you did, it wouldn’t ruin our life. You know, like we joke in much about this. We have to understand that this has been a process and something that we have worked through. Like, I feel like we’ve made great progress. We should talk about money now.
GD:
Okay. So money. I don’t know how I feel. I do feel like we’ve gotten a little bit better with money. I would say that the overall gist of the money issue is that I’m sure the people who are listening will be shocked to hear that I am more anxious and concerned and conservative about money. And I have a general feeling of scarcity when it comes to money. Right. And you have a general feeling of abundance, and everything will be fine, and it will all work out and we can spend money on things. How would you define our money issues?
AW:
I would put it in those terms. I would go so far as to say, when we first met, part of probably what has developed part of a reason why you’ve created the money thought around our family is because when I first met you, I was very frivolous with money. I spent it too much. I was going through a horrible time of my life. And it was like the only thing I could do that wasn’t drinking that made me feel a little bit better. I think over the last four years, five years, I’ve learned quite a bit about myself and the shortcomings of some of this abundance thought because it’s just immaturity. Right? So what I’ve actually been doing over the last couple of years, which has I think helped with your anxiety and your scarcity is I’ve just totally dove into learning about money and learning about investing and learning about which has brought more control and maturity in the decisions that I make around money. So you don’t have to be the one in our relationship to protect.
GD:
Have you noticed that I’ve been like buying things lately?
AW:
You buy more stuff than I buy. I know because I used to be so scared to buy anything because I felt like, well, all the, all the wastefulness has to be on that side and I have to be so overly controlling and careful so that I don’t have to get in fights with her about the spending. But now it feels like since you are being careful, I’m finding myself having a little bit of like, I don’t know I’m going to buy that shirt. It’s kind of fun. And I’m really grateful to you for that. Thank you very much. And I did hear this thing recently that said, I also have been trying to live with less fear around money and taking on a little more of your belief that I don’t know. I just heard somebody say recently that the reason why we get so nervous in our money stories is because one of us always feels like we’re breaking our parents’ rules about money. And my parents, you know, my parents were both very hardworking public-school teachers. And we always had enough that we never had extra. Right. And so money was to be very, very careful with and any waste was shameful. And so whenever I feel like we’re spending, I think I secretly feel like I’m breaking my parents rule.
AW:
Interesting.
GD:
But our parents’ rules weren’t usually right.
AW:
Right. One of the things that has happened frequently with us is I used to say, well, we can afford it.
GD:
Yeah. That used to drive me crazy.
AW:
And that would drive you bonkers. And I understand I was listening to this book the other day. What I have to say to you is based on our financial blueprint and based on our long-term goals, I think this falls in line with us still reaching our goals at the time we want to reach our goals. Right. So I just had to find a new phrase that is true and it rings true. It just doesn’t sound like, oh, I don’t want to deal with this conversation right now. We can afford it. And I want to be done with it.
GD:
Exactly. It feels intentional. Yes. Because I feel okay. Saving yay. Giving yay. Spending intentionally. Yay. Wasting boo. So I just have to know that it’s been thought through and it’s a decision and not just like an impulse or something.
AD:
Yeah. I mean, it’s so fascinating to me because I think all of these things they’re like about food and taking up space and talking and money, but they’re really, when you think about it, they’re about feelings of security, feelings of trust, feeling the way you, what you view as an indulgence or not. And whether you’re worthy of it, safer around it. I mean, they’re all wrapped up in these core beliefs about like, am I going to be okay? And if you do this is are you worthy of trust? Is your judgment good enough? Is it going to be like, am I going to be secure? Am I going to have what I need? And also what does it mean in the backdrop of my day-to-day life? Like when you work your off, so you’re always working. So it’s like, if you are so regimented about all your time is working and then you see a purchase that you see as frivolous, do you receive that as you have no respect for how hard I work?
GD:
I do a little bit. I used to. I don’t anymore.
AW:
I also work too.
GD:
Yes.
AW:
And I get to spend my money and you get to spend your money. Like, that’s an important thing to say out loud.
AD:
A hundred percent. And I’m not saying that it is that it is a correct assessment. I’m just saying that does the gut reaction, that it immediately comes to that place because it’s like a deep core …
GD:
And the deep, the depth of like some of it being childhood trauma. I mean, I will never get past the part where I’m, this is where I can’t get past where I’m like, okay, I know that it doesn’t make any sense for me to have a sip of your milkshake, but it’s childhood trauma for me. So even though it doesn’t make any sense, can I just please have a sip of your freaking milkshake, even though it’s not a good, even though it should be a boundary
AW:
Come to me with that. You see if you said that, honey, to me every single time, I would give you a sip of that milkshake. But you don’t say that you say no things and you go in there secretly into the freaking refrigerator, take a sip. I know where you’ve walked. I know what you’re doing. You’re trying to do it secretly.
AD:
That is also childhood trauma because Glennon and I used to sneak food. Because we weren’t allowed to have it. So, what I’m saying is that you also have to recognize Abby has childhood trauma around being secure enough to have it. And there’s a third way. There’s always a third way. It doesn’t mean please indulge my trauma or you indulge my trauma. There is this third way that Glennon, you really could allow yourself to get the milkshake, have the sip you want and throw the rest of that shit in the trash.
GD:
I know. And that’s what I think we’re working towards. Okay. What I will say about that. I am not yet at a place, even though I’m working my off and I will someday be there where I trust myself with the whole milkshake. I’ve never taken three sips of milkshake and throw it away. It brings back all my old bingeing stuff, whatever. So I’d rather just pass it up. But what we come back to is this like immovable object and or impenetrable object and immovable force. It’s like whose childhood trauma do we bow to each day? That’s literally all we’re trying to figure out. Right. So we actually, you all, we are at 30 minutes. I don’t know. Should we save the other, oh, you want to not save? You just want to not get to the one that you suck at. I see you, Abby. I see you. Okay. So we did talk your money. Guess we won’t get to absent-minded okay. So Gordon mindedness. Okay. And then I think what we’ll do is we’ll save the fifth fight for another time, because it’s all about how we respond to each other’s fights. I don’t know how to describe this one. This next one. I’m calling it. My absentmindedness. I don’t know, babe, how you would describe it, but it’s just this thing I’ve had since I was a kid where I am not paying attention to anything that’s going on in the physical world. And so I’m constantly losing things. I’m constantly breaking things. Can you just try to describe it?
AW:
Yeah. I think that you are a unique human being because the thing that makes you so unbelievable, genius and artist at what you do is your ability to think through really difficult problems and make them sound simple to the rest of us. And that takes a process and it has its toll. There’s like there’s a cost to it. And some of those costs are leaving a full cup of coffee inside the washing machine inside.
GD:
Yeah. Nobody knows how that happened. It hasn’t been proven that it was me.
AW:
Hold on. Let me just get through a few of these. Also the fact that you still will not stop using my razor, no matter how many times I’ve asked you to stop using my razor. And so now I just have to change. I have to change her razor heads for her because the thing is, she looks down and she sees two razors. She literally can’t remember which one is hers.
GD:
I can’t. No matter how many times. She’s written my name. We’ve had two tutorials. She’s given me pneumonic devices.
AD:
So, you know, so you literally can’t tell? It’s not that you’re like, I see this is Abby’s and I’m using it. You’re just like, oh,I can’t remember.
GD:
I’m literally standing in the shower, staring at two razors going, well, shit.
AW:
I do think you figure it out because you always, always use mine. Why do you always, always use mine?
AD:
This is some passive aggressive shit, Abby.
AW:
Yes. Cause when you’re in the shower, showering and shaving, you don’t clean that off of the freaking razor. You don’t clean your hair off. So when you look down to the two razors, you look at the head that looks the cleanest and you choose that one. That one is always mine. So I go in there and I look at my razor and it has hair all over it. And I look in the other one and it has hair all over it. I’m like, oh, she chose my clean razor, because it was clean. Who wants to use a dirty razor? Nobody.
GD:
I just want to tell you that I love you so much. And I can see that … you’re giving me too much credit. That’s not a process I would ever go through. I would never pick something up. You’ve seen my toothbrush. Do you think I’ve ever picked something up and been like, this is too dirty to use? Never. I am disgusting
AW:
You are disgusting.
GD:
I would use a razor that didn’t work for 20 years. I would never think this thing doesn’t work so I should change it.
AW:
I’ve actually figured out I have to hide the razor in the shower.
GD:
That’s smart.
AW:
I’ve been hiding it from you. And it’s not easy. Cause there’s like, you know, only three places that could be behind the freaking shampoo bottles.
GD:
So what do you attribute this to? Because I’ve always said, you know, this is something that’s happened throughout my life. I run into things. I have a lot of bruises because I actually run into doors. I will be driving and I find myself going somewhere. Our kids call it mom’s underwater. Right. I am living so much inside my head that I’m not paying attention to the outside world. Which so in our family we say, mom can do hard things, but she can’t do easy things.
AW:
Yeah. I think that you, I think that sometimes what’s happening inside of your own head is more interesting than anything. A lot of people would feel offense to that, but I actually know how smart you are. So I don’t necessarily disagree with you all the time. I just have had to figure out how to manage around it because during the book writing process, or even the creation of this podcast, like you go into a different realm. Like you have a different realm that you live in in some ways. And so that’s why you leave stuff in certain places. And I find them, that’s why their cabinet drawers can never get shut. You know, things of this nature when it comes to the children, you don’t really forget anything when it comes to them, which is really interesting.
AD:
So that’s interesting. So she is selectively prioritizing what she will pay attention to what she’s not. And so her ability to do that, does that feel disrespectful to you, Abby? Because you’re like, well, you’ve chosen to come out of your world for this thing. You just don’t choose to come out of your world to leave my razor alone or to not put gum on the console of my vehicle.
AW:
Look. I decided to marry Glennon, decided to marry her after having learned this about her. And I think that part of what makes her so special is she actually needs it. She needs to feel like somebody else is going to like take care of stuff when she has to go into this different world or realm or in her head or whatever. And there is going to be a cost that I pay. But that’s part of why I was put on this earth I think. I do. I think that there is a unique kind of person that can handle that and I was built for it. So it’s going to annoy the hell out of me forever. I know that also. But I think over time, I’ll stop caring as much.
GD:
You’ll go dead inside.
AW:
Yeah.
AD:
Well, what you just said, Abby, that you knew this about Glennon before you married her, that it’s part of what makes her uniquely her, that she needs it. I wonder if Glennon, you could think through the food, the talking, the money, and try to know through that framework. Like you knew this about Abby.
GD:
So did you already order your team Abby shirt and you’re just not wearing today?
AD:
No. I’m being totally objective here. I really am. Like, there are things that Abby acknowledges and celebrates as part of you that are annoying as hell. I’m not saying it isn’t annoying the things that are true about Abby. I’m just saying that it’s interesting to think about those things from the perspective of what Abby just shared about you.
AW:
I have more of a personality that accepts people for who they are a little bit more than tries to witchy them and control them a little like, no, and I don’t mean it’s bad.
GD:
I am going to say that that is 100% true. That’s one of the most exceptional things about Abby is her supernatural ability to love people exactly as they are and without condition. I have never seen it before. I don’t believe I’ll ever see it again, the way that she has it. And it is something that I would not want to change about her. And with that, we will break and we will come back with some hard questions. I love you both so much. Just the way you are.
AW:
Don’t be mad at me. Cause this was really therapeutic.
GD:
It was wonderful.
AW:
It was wonderful. I love you so much.
GD:
Okay. We are back with questions from various Pod Squad members for Glennon and Abby. And the first one is from Jacqueline.
Jacqueline (caller):
Hey Glennon. I am just finishing up my sophomore year in college. And I’ve been about a four year relationship with my girlfriend. We fight sometimes, but I fight more than others. I’m the one who fights and sometimes my fighting can be really unkind. And anger is just like one of those feelings that I don’t know what to do with. So I guess my question is how do you and Abby fight? Because Abby reminds me a lot of my partner. And what do you do when maybe you’re about to say something, but you really don’t want to say, or you know, that you’re going to explode or one of the other one’s going to explode. I really relate to you, Glennon. I’ve read your book and it really changed my life. I recommend it to all of my friends. Okay. Love you. Thank you so much.
GD:
Okay. So Pod Squad, if you could see Abby right now, what you would see is that that entire time that Jacqueline was talking, Abby had her hands over her mouth and was freaking out. And babe, I’m going to guess the reason. Okay. You’ll have to tell me if I’m right. I’m guessing that you actually think that Jacqueline is me. Like I recorded that question and pretended to be Jacqueline because it sounds like maybe Jacqueline has some …
AW:
Some similarities, a few.
GD:
Yeah. I love Jacqueline by the way. Jacqueline, I love you. I am you, first of all. Second of all, so babe, we get to talk about not only our five fights, but how we fight because you and I actually fight about how we fight.
AW:
Yeah. For sure that is the most lesbian thing ever. First of all, Jacqueline, thank you for the question. I think, you know, I feel warm when I hear other people talk about some issues that we have that’s for sure.
GD:
Yeah, totally. So let’s talk about conflict first, because we’ve figured out just recently actually, that we have different ideas about conflict in the first place that we both have different beliefs about conflict that makes it tricky right from the start.
AW:
Like, what is conflict in general in each of our lives.
GD:
Right. So we figured out that I am very, very conflict, I’m a fan of conflict.
AW:
You’re pro conflict.
GD:
I am pro conflict. I always feel like what we’re trying to do down here is understand each other better and get to the root of things. And I have always understood conflict to be the vehicle one uses to get to the root of things.
AW:
Yeah. I believe that conflict is the end of us as we once knew it. Right. I think, I think we just figured out that you think of conflict as constructive, and I think of conflict as destructive.
GD:
Yes. Right. And so we have considered the fact that maybe this is what we were taught in our families of origin. Right. I would say that my family of origin was very, we had a lot of conflict, like high, high, intense happenings all the time.
AW:
Is that right Sister?
GD:
How would you describe it?
AD:
Oh, cellular?
GD:
Yes. Okay. Great cellular. So Abby, how would you describe your family’s approach to conflict?
AW:
Never.
GD:
Avoidant.
AW:
I mean, when you’re living with nine or 11 people in one house, one conflict can ruin it for the rest of the bunch. So it was celebrated to brush conflict under the rug. And so that’s how I learned to deal with it. And that is actually one of my greatest strengths. And also one of my greatest weaknesses, because I am very much a conflict avoider. Because I don’t want to ruffle the feathers. I don’t want to mess up the juju of the energy of the family.
GD:
And that’s so interesting for us because in the beginning of our relationship, we’d get into a conflict and I would feel like, oh, this is good. And you would retreat and feel like, oh, this is bad.
AD:
Right. But I have a question about that because if it’s like peace peacekeeping versus peacemaking, because Glennon, you are very, very comfortable with external conflict and vocalizing conflict to resolution. You are very, very uncomfortable with internal conflict. So when you have an internal conflict, you vocalize it, you work it out. That part feels good to you. But Abby, inevitably, there must be some like when something isn’t going, right, and you avoid the outward conflict, are you experiencing an inner conflict in that way?
AW:
I definitely experience it as uncomfortable on the inside, but I don’t necessarily show it on the outside. Right. So like, I don’t express the need to be in conflict as much as I’m feeling the need to be in conflict. So my body’s going through conflict. I’m actually probably, my body’s suffering and I’m not getting that conflict out. So what I have learned through being married to Glennon for four years, beautiful four years, and being with you for five, is that actually saying what’s going on in your insides and getting them out is the only way to living a peace ish life,
AD:
Peacefulish
GD:
I like that.
AW:
Can you tell the folks how we fight? Like, what’s our number one, like way of operating.
GD:
Okay. So when we finally get to the point where we’re like, okay, we can trust conflict, right? Conflict is how we get to know each other better, how we show each other our insides, all, you know, progress.
AW:
It took me three years to get here. To get this comfortable with conflict, by the way, it was a slow slog.
AD:
Well, to be fair, I want to push against this idea that there’s some people comfortable with conflict and some people that aren’t. Abby, the type of conflict you’re comfortable with is inner conflict. The type of conflict Glennon is comfortable with his outward conflict. She’s uncomfortable with inward. You’ve gotten to the place where you’re comfortable enough with inward, more comfortable than outward. Everyone has some kind of comfort.
GD:
Yeah. It’s the idea of there’s a price to pay. It’s choosing what price you’re going to play. Right. So it’s like, but I also do believe that as women, we are trained to look at a situation, look at a room, be at a table, be in a relationship and count the cost of saying the thing count the cost of expressing ourselves, count the cost of saying what we need. And that will cause too much drama, chaos, or people, other people’s discomfort or whatever. And so we don’t want to pay it. But what we haven’t considered is that there is a price to pay for not saying the thing for not expressing thing. And that price is never being known and that price is slowly dying inside. So the idea is that there’s a price to pay either way, which price do you want to pay.
AW:
Yeah, the way that we choose and the way that we have worked through this is that we promise each other not to go after each other’s weaknesses. And knowing that I go straight to shame, there is the price that unfortunately, like a toll that you pay every time that we get into some sort of conflict and the toll.
GD:
Yeah. Let’s talk about that.
AW:
The toll is you have to make me feel safe, unfortunately. I’m sorry, babe, that you do, you have to make me feel safe that you will not like leave me before we head in any kind of conflict. And it’s annoying. Like, I bet that that has to be so frustrating for you, but that unfortunately is the price of entry to this kind of conflict to make me feel like we can do this on even terms on some level. Does that make sense?
GD:
Yes. It was like putting safety. Like it’s like when you go to the bowling alley and you have to put those like, well, I do. You know how the bumpers, when we go bowling, you, you get me the bumpers.
AW:
Have you ever even been bowling?
GD:
Yes. Remember when we went with the kids and I got the bumpers.
AW:
Okay. Yeah, yeah.
GD:
Yeah. So, the bumpers of those first conflicts, the first couple of years is we figured out that I would have to say to you, we need to talk about something, but please understand that I’m never going anywhere. Like, I want to talk about this hard thing, but please breathe and know that we’re going to make it through it and know nobody’s leaving. Nobody’s going anywhere. But it’s gotten safer lately. Like, we don’t necessarily need those bumpers.
AW:
Because you’ve allowed me to jump to my prefrontal cortex, like I’ve been operating in my reptilian brain and you’ve given me time so that I have the space to go from reptilian brain to the thinking brain and rationalize, oh, she isn’t going to leave me. But before, early in our relationship, I didn’t know that. So I was like only operating with like these past experiences. So now I feel comfortable getting into a conflict with you and knowing you aren’t going to leave me without you having to necessarily pay that same kind of toll because my brain has rewired itself. Like truly, like, that’s kind of like, it’s magic. Like your brain is valuable in that way. What’s the price that I have to pay?
GD:
Okay. So if people have the bumpers, right? So we say, okay, we’re going to enter into conflict, but everybody gets their bumpers. So you and I have this theory that the second we go into conflict that each of us has like this bulletproof jacket. And we use this phrase, the bulletproof jacket in our family all the time for many different, well, I’ll talk about it many times on this podcast I’m sure. But it basically means that when we go into conflict, we feel vulnerable, right? Because the reason we’ve got there is probably because we’re hurt or we’re sad, or we’re fearful, right. That’s why we’ve gotten into the conflict. But hurt, sad, fear. Those are very soft, vulnerable emotions. And so heading into conflict, we all throw on a bulletproof jacket, right? That is some sort of emotion or approach or way of being that makes us feel less vulnerable. Right? So mine is always anger and rightness. Okay. Anger and rightness. Yours is shame. So early in our relationship, what the bulletproof jacket does is it makes it absolutely impossible to even talk about the thing you were talking about before, because now you’re dealing with each other’s representatives. You’re not even talking about the problem. So mine would be, it would drive you nuts. I would turn into a lawyer like dissecting every single word you said, making you feel wrong, making you feel afraid. I remember you figuring that out a while in and saying, babe, if you want to do this, you’ll, you’ll always win. That’s great. If you want to have a war of words, you’ll always win.
AW:
You’re better at words than me, you will win this game every time.
GD:
The game. Right. Right. And so that’s when I figured out that that was my bulletproof jacket and we’ll get to why we have these. Yours was shame. So what would you go to every time we got into any kind of conflict?
AW:
I would go to shame. Shut down. She’s leaving.
GD:
Right. And that I’m terrible. I’m awful. You’re going to leave me. And that would frustrate me to no end, because …
AW:
Then I become the victim and you have to take care of me.
GD:
So then I don’t even get to have my feelings anymore because I’m pulling you out of fetal position. Right?
AW:
It’s a good tactic. You got to give me a little critic.
GD:
It is. And the reason why is it’s beautiful because what we figured out is that, and I want you listening to like, really think about this is that we put on our bulletproof jacket in conflict to, I think, cover whatever is our deepest shame belief about ourselves. Okay. The reason that I always argue about rightness is because my deepest shame belief because of my childhood and because of how I grew up. And because of all of my various diagnoses is I am crazy. I am overemotional. I am too much. I am illogical. I am, nobody is going to be able to take me for long. So I start listing all the reasons I’m right, because I want to prove to you that actually it’s logical how I feel. That’s why the tagline and Untamed is, I’m not crazy. I’m a goddamn cheetah because I am constantly my whole life trying to undo that shame belief that my ten-year-old self decided when she was sitting in therapy sessions for all the formative years of my life, that I will have to spend my life pretending that I’m not crazy.
AW:
Right. Well, I mean, growing up in the family that I grew up in, having so many people needing the attention of your parent, right. And there’s too much, too much need for too little attention. And then being this gay kid, this, this young gay kid inside the Catholic church, fearing literal hell right. Choosing myself over hell, dealing with the kind of internalized homophobia that, that still lives inside of me today. Sadly. I feel like I’m an abomination and I am bad when we enter into the conflict and you saying, I’m never going to leave you. I love you. And then we get into the conflict. That’s helping my brain rewire itself. That’s helping me work through some of this trauma. And so we just we’ve promised ourselves never to use the very thing that is our biggest weakness or our biggest vulnerability against each other in conflict. Right.
GD:
That’s I think what fighting fair is.
AW:
Exactly. And I think that your tendency to shoot into anger, right? Like, I want to talk a little bit about that because you know, why do you think anger is your go-to?
GD:
Well, I mean, I think that growing up, I learned that love is loud. That love is like, you know, that conflict is the way you do things that I had an extremely loving family. And I also, there was a lot of anger. So I’m sure that. Here’s what I would say. It makes me angry, how little you get it. Okay. Like it pisses me right off. Okay. So it feels like, I feel like maybe you, probably Jacqueline’s partner can relate, like you, it feels to me like you are very uncomfortable with anger. I’m too comfortable with anger. Right. That’s my go-to. And it feels to me like, you are averse to anger that you don’t like, sometimes I just want to be like, are you feeling this? Because I sometimes feel like I have to feel it all. And, here’s what I secretly think. I think you feel like you have to stay steady for me because I’m fired up. But what happens when you get fired up? What happens?
AW:
You go super calm.
GD:
Yeah. Yeah. Cause I’m like, oh, I get to be the calm one now. Yeah.
AW:
Yeah, totally. So when I do get angry, I don’t have a difficult time feeling anger. I have a very difficult time showing anger. So it’s happening inside, I’m angry. But one of the things that I’ve learned throughout my life is this, in a marital relationship, it has never, or in a relationship period, it has never benefited me to respond out of anger. Not one time.
GD:
What do you think about, we have talked before about the anger also being this, I don’t know what this is. Okay. But when we get into conflict, you have an amazing ability to remind us to always be on the same team. I don’t know why this is. I tend to, the second we get into conflict, be like, okay, we’re opposing teams. I need to win. I’m blah, blah, blah. And you are always reminding me wait, but aren’t we on the same team.
AW:
Right you go into the individual sport athlete mode, you’re like, I’m fighting for my life. I’m the only one over here. This is do or die. And I’m fighting to the death. And I’m like, whoa, like back up a second. Like, no matter what happens, like we’re on the same team.
AD:
I think we’re missing part of it on conflict because it doesn’t apply to you two. But I think we should talk about it because one piece of conflict, Glennon, you said, one of the reasons that that Abby doesn’t bring conflict up is because of a historical lack of trust that it will be received in a correct and gracious way. But I think there’s a whole nother basket of folks that it also has this issue of trust, that it is worth your time and effort, because anything in your relationship will ever change.
AW:
Yeah, that’s good. The ambivalence.
AD:
Because it’s this whole idea and it relates so much to conflict for me because part of it, I am a very high conflict person. Anger is my mother tongue. Just like you Glennon, there is the comfort of the default emotion that makes you feel safest. And when you’re desiring to be understood above anything else, being able to make your case so that the other person will understand you, I get that completely. And so I bring a lot of quote unquote conflict, but conflict with the goal of resolution, I mean, conflict resolution is in fact one of the greatest things that you can accomplish in your life and in your relationship. So for me, when I view people as not bringing conflict up, I think it’s being unfaithful to the relationship. I think it’s an abdication of your role in the relationship and you are actually hoisting on the other person the responsibility to resolve your conflicts, the responsibility to speak those things out loud, because people go their whole lives never voicing any conflict. Not because there isn’t conflict, but because they’re either too lazy to do it, they don’t have the trust in their partner to receive it. Or they’re just like, you know what? I tried that for seven years and not a damn thing changed and I’m done. And that’s when you get …
AW:
Divorced.
AD:
In scary places in your relationship. When I catch myself not bringing up conflict, I am like, ooh, red flag. And it’s because cause it’s slowly dying.
GD:
It’s apathy, it’s slowly dying.
AD:
It is an atrophy of the relationship because it’s an investment to me. I view the willingness to bring conflict to the table, to make yourself vulnerable, it shows a faith in your relationship, an investment in a relationship, a belief that your relationship could be better than it is. And if you do not bring conflict at the table, you are saying, my relationship is never going to get better. It’s going to be the same every day, over and over.
AW:
Ooh. I have the greatest metaphor for any Sporty Spices out there. It’s like, when your coach doesn’t say anything to you is when you should worry. When your coach is saying things to you and still coaching you and giving you pointers, that means they’re still invested. It’s the same thing, Sister, you just like just healed something for me. That was good.
GD:
That’s so good. And I think that’s why, honestly, that’s why it annoys me when people who bring up the thing are seen as like difficult or whatever. And I’m like, to me, I see it as generosity. I see it as I’m spending my energy on this thing, like I’m offering myself, I’m offering it to me. It feels generous.
AW:
It is the cost you are paying to have good relationships. Glennon, and you have wonderful relationships. And I don’t. I have a couple of decent relationships, but you have wonderful relationships with the people in your life because you are paying a price of entry and you’re saying hard things and you’re whether you’re afraid or not. I don’t know. But you are comfortable with the conflict, which leads to a resolution. It’s really beautiful.
GD:
I would say that you have taught me more about how to, I’m amazing at bringing up escalator. I’m amazing at bringing the thing. And then I suck and then I go into Ragey Spice, getting nowhere. I would rather be right than kind. I would rather be understood than make progress in the relationship. So I’m good at, well, babe, it’s like everything else in our relationship. It’s like cleaning the garage. It’s like, I’m great at starting. You are great at finishing, right? Like once we get started, you are the one that keeps us kind. You are the one that stays vulnerable while I’m I mean, remember I’m just thinking about the last fight. We had argument in the car. Even like my body language, I shut down. I like turned away. You know, you stay tender and you stay vulnerable and you constantly remind me that I’m not too much. And that I’m exactly enough. I remember saying, I’m exhausting and you saying, no, you are exhaustive. And that was so beautiful to me. It was like, well, you are going to bring up every damn thing, but it’s not exhausting, it’s just thorough.
AW:
What we found out with bringing up every damn thing is it’s a little bit the rightness, a little bit the control. I just recently figured this out. That like when you’re repeating, like we’ve come to the end and we’re just like going over the analytics of what we’ve just talked about. I understood in the most clarity that I’ve had in a long time, I was like, oh, I get this. Okay. So what she’s doing right now is we’re creating now a new frame of reference, a new starting point. So she’s putting her flag in the sand and, and this is where we begin from now, from here and now.
AD:
We have carried the ball down the field and here’s where we will start.
GD:
Yes. I need to see progress. I need to see progress. I need to say this, okay, so now we have not wasted this last hour. Here, here is the truer, more beautiful mutual understanding we have agreed upon as of this moment. It’s like when you get off a really mind numbing conference call for work and somebody super smart and is like, okay, in short, here’s what we’ve come on with and here’s our calls to action. And you’re like, oh, that person’s so smart. That’s what I’m trying to do for us, babe. But I realize it could be seen as ever so slightly controlling. Okay. I love you. Let’s come back for our next right thing.
GD:
Okay. Here’s our next right thing for this week. With your Pod Squad, think about this question. When you get into conflict, when you feel afraid or sad or hurt, what is the bulletproof jacket that you pull on to protect yourself? Just what is it? Maybe we don’t even worry about solving it. We just think about, you know, I have Abby and I and Craig have three kids and we noticed when they were little and when they’d get afraid, when they’d get in trouble, the oldest one would always get a humor. Okay. Like I would confront him and he would burst out laughing. And it was so infuriating till I figured out, oh, that’s what he does when he’s scared. Right? The middle one would go immediately into a shame spiral. I am terrible. I am awful. That was her, the youngest one, absolute apathy. She just shut down. Just, you could see her eyes go glassy. Like she just, I’m not here anymore. I’m not here. It was like a baby who like covers their face. Maybe if I cover my face, she will go away. Right? So let’s just think this week, what is your bulletproof vest that you pull on when you’re feeling vulnerable as you go through this week and when life gets hard and it will please remember we can do hard things. Thank you so much for listening. And we will see you back next week.