Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson!
September 3, 2024
Amanda Doyle:
Welcome, Pod Squad. We have a very, very, very special treat for you today. We are joint in this podcast by none other than Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson. She received her undergraduate and law degrees both with honors from Harvard University, served as a law clerk for three federal judges, practiced law in the private sector as commissioner to the US Sentencing Commission, and as an assistant federal public defender.
President Obama nominated Justice Jackson to the US District Court for the District of Columbia, elevated to the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit in 2021. Justice Jackson made history in 2022 when President Biden nominated her as an associate justice, one of only 115 people in history to have that job, and the only Black woman ever to have that job. She was confirmed to the Supreme Court of the United States and took her seat on July 30th, 2022. Her new memoir, Lovely One, is available today, and it is absolutely beautiful and very special.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Oh, thank you.
Amanda Doyle:
And thank you for having-
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Thank you.
Amanda Doyle:
… giving us your time today. I know it’s precious and you don’t have it to give, so thank you.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Well, I’m delighted to be here. Thank you so much, and thank you for that lovely introduction.
Amanda Doyle:
My goodness. Your story, it’s just swirling in our heads right now, and it’s so beautiful. And we were talking about kind of the themes of your life that we’re so excited to talk about today, and it’s this story of undistracted striving, just the whole way through at every aspect. And then this really fascinating inquiry into expectations at every round with your family, your family you were born into and the family you’re making. And let’s do it all. Okay. Let us begin.
Glennon Doyle:
We’d love to start with the story about that dramatic day at the pool when you were young, and what happened in that moment.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yes. Well, gosh, I was young. I was in probably either mid to late elementary school. And I had been taking swimming lessons for a couple of years, my mother really insisted upon it. One of the things I talk about in the book is how my mother and my father both grew up in Miami during a time of segregation, where Black people really were not allowed to swim in public pools or get ordinary swimming lessons in public facilities. And so my parents really weren’t trained to swim.
And when I was born in 1970, which was right after the civil rights movement, I got the benefit of all of the opening of society that the civil rights movement was all about. That was my generation. And every pool was open, every Black student, child, could do what they wanted, and so my parents wanted me to do everything.
So I took swimming lessons and I loved to float on my back. That was my big thing, with the sun on my face and just kind of calm and serene. And I was doing this at a pool during a pool party. My mother was a teacher and her teacher friends were having some sort of gathering and a barbecue, and all the families were running around and I decided I was going get in the pool.
And the kids were playing, the other kids were playing in the shallow end, splashing around, and I wanted to float. So I went over to the deep end, but thought I’ll be close to the edge in case I needed it. And I started floating, and I got kind of out into the middle and I looked and saw I was too far away from the edge and I panicked, and I basically just flailed around and sunk to the bottom of the pool.
And I might’ve been under not too long, but my mother looked around and noticed that I was there, and one of her teacher friends jumped in the water fully clothed and brought me up. It was very dramatic, but I was so disappointed in myself because I knew how to swim. And I don’t know why I had given into the doubts or treated it in the way that I had. And it was sort of like a life lesson for me, I think, that I really just felt like, “From now on, I’m not going to allow my fears to get in the way of what it is I’m trying to accomplish.” And it was something in the book of a metaphor for, as Amanda was saying, how I lived my life from that point on.
Amanda Doyle:
You were in the deep end from that point on forever. You’ve never been in the shallow since.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
That’s true. It was-
Glennon Doyle:
Which is so beautiful, because you can handle the deep end if you remember that you know how to swim.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
That’s right. That’s right. Yes. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Your parents had a philosophy, really, to keep you undistracted from messages of the world that might wrongly suggest something about you that wasn’t true. So you talk about the danger of soft expectations, that they didn’t let you watch certain TV shows or anything that might put you in a frame of who you were. I guess I’m just wondering, did you actually not know that people had different expectations of you? Or was that strategy of, “We’re just not even going to look over there. We’re going to stay right here where we know who we are.” What did that do for you?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Well, I think it really helped to shore up my self-esteem. My parents, again, so much of this is about their time growing up and their background and experiences. They grew up in the segregated South and felt very strongly that they wanted me not to internalize any sort of negative perception of myself or Black people or whatever. And so they had a sense of that happening if I was just totally exposed to society in the way that they had been.
So when I grew up, for example, they were very interested in me focusing on educational television shows. My parents, by the way, were both teachers when they graduated from… They went to historically Black universities, each of them, different ones, and then came to Washington D.C. And I was born in Washington D.C., where they were both public school teachers.
And so they obviously valued education. They poured themselves into me in terms of my education, but they also, as I said, really wanted to eliminate what they thought would be negative influences, cultural signals that suggested that Black people were not as intelligent or as worthy or anything like that.
So, they focused my attention on Sesame Street and The Electric Company, and multicultural dynamic shows where there were kids from different walks of life. Mr. Rogers was a big one because he was so kind and thoughtful and then we learned lots of manners and things. But they didn’t particularly want me to watch cultural shows at the time that didn’t have any representations of African Americans or people of different races, because they felt that those might give subtle signals of inferiority that would undermine my self-esteem. So I talk about that.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. And I think it was your grandmother who said, “Those people have nothing to do with your life. To dwell on the unfairness of life is to be devoured by it.” And your father developed the curriculum for African American studies within D.C. So I’m wondering about this balance of how do we learn enough about our history and our struggle and what is true, since the culture isn’t going to tell us what’s true, while not centering that and becoming devoured by that? How in this moment can people strike that balance where they’re trying to get rid of critical race theory and they’re trying to… Where is it? Where’s the spot?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yes, it’s very interesting. I don’t know where the spot is, but I do think that is very much the balance that my parents were able to help me strike as a young child growing up. I went to predominantly white educational institutions, public school, but in a community that was predominantly white. So I got a lot of that sort of cultural influence. And I think my parents wanted to make sure that I had the balance of understanding my own background and roots, going to church with my grandmother, to a Black church in Miami. All of those things were also brought into my experience, and I think that created the balance, being exposed to a lot of different things.
Amanda Doyle:
You were exposed to a lot and you had a lot of advantages in terms of that you created for yourself and that were available to you. And you were a star in school, in part because your parents’ expectations of you that that’s what you would be and do.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
We were raised by two public school teachers also, so we know how that goes.
Amanda Doyle:
Right. Right, right, right.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yes, exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
But there’s also a balance there. Can you tell us what happened, you were eight and you were at your grandmother’s sink, and why that stayed with you forever?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yes. So, going back to my grandmother and my mother’s family, so my mother has four brothers and sisters. There are five of them. And when I was growing up, they all had families and Sundays were a big deal at my grandmother’s house, because some portion of us would go to church with my grandmother and then come back to her house, and she would cook and we’d watch football games and it’s like a big family time.
And this particular Sunday, when I went and was there with all the kids and all the family members into my grandmother’s kitchen, I looked in her sink and I went to wash my hands and I noticed that there was a white paper napkin, and written on the napkin in broken English, something like, “Broke sink, wait for repair.” But the words were misspelled.
And I just thought that was so funny because who didn’t know how to spell these words? These were very simple words, weight, repair. And at eight, I was so big for my britches, I had done well on my spelling test. And so I brought my mother to see this funny thing that I had found, and my mother was just crestfallen. She was so hurt that I would use the opportunity to make fun. I didn’t know who’d written the note, but I just thought it was funny.
And she was just upset because she said, “We thought we were raising you better than that. Just because you have all of these advantages, you don’t get to make fun of other people. Who do you think wrote this note?” And when I thought about it, I realized that it was my grandmother, that she had not had the same educational background and advantages that I had had. She never graduated from school.
And it was such a devastating thing for me to know that I had been even unintentionally making fun of my grandmother. And I cried and went outside and was just really, really down on myself and upset that I had done that. And I came back in and I apologized to her. And I don’t even know if she knew what all of it was about, but I learned from that, that we really do have to be kind and empathetic.
And every time I think about that event, I just think, “I have so many blessings. I have so many advantages that other people haven’t, like had my grandmother.” And I have to be mindful of that, that I can’t take for granted the things that I’ve been given, and nor does it make me feel like I’m better than anybody else. So it’s sort of like a lesson on kindness and caring and empathy and understanding.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s such a beautiful story. I was so touched for your mother in that situation, to be in the center of these two gorgeous generations, and striving for this one and respecting this one. And I just-
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
Absolutely beautiful. Can you tell us about getting to Harvard, the moment that your confidence momentarily falters, and when you’re walking across the Cambridge crosswalk, what happens, which just still full body chills every time I think about it?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Well, I didn’t know anything about Harvard coming up, other than they had this fantastic debate tournament. I was in speech and debate. And I went to this tournament several years in a row, and it was the first time I’d heard of any college like Harvard. And I thought, “Well, I should apply,” and, “It looks like a pretty good place.” I apply and I get in, and I’m from this big public high school in south Florida. And I’m so excited to be there for the first week and a half or so until I run into what a lot of freshmen do, which is just feeling like, “Oh my gosh, what am I doing here? I’m away from home. I don’t know any of these people. They don’t know me. Can I do the work of this place?” Here was a school in which I was meeting a lot of kids who had gone to prep schools, like my now-husband, then-boyfriend, who had a lot of material advantages, advantages I thought in education and-
Amanda Doyle:
Seventh generation Harvard kid. Right?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Exactly, exactly. And so I was like, “What am I doing here?” And then I was just feeling really homesick and down. And my grandmother, at that point, had been diagnosed with breast cancer and she was going through treatments. And so, “This is my freshman year and I’m now away from her and she’s suffering.” And it was really just a bad time.
And I’m walking across the yard, Harvard yard, looking, apparently, as down as I feel, and a woman is walking on the path, a Black woman I didn’t know, walking on the path coming toward me. And as we get close to one another, she looked at me and she leaned over and she said, “Persevere.” and she kept walking. I was like, “What?” I turned to see if she was going to turn around to say she just passed that word on to me.
And at first, I didn’t know what to do with it. It seemed kind of odd. But a couple of days later was my birthday, and it was really my lowest point because I had always spent my birthday with family. This was in the first two weeks of school, so no one knew me. And I was just so down. And I got a letter from my aunt, who was a missionary, and from my mother, but my aunt especially wrote about how, “God has angels that are standing around you to protect you.”
And I thought, “I wonder if that woman was an angel? I wonder if she was a guardian angel?” And it just sort of made the story all make sense in a way. But that word, persevere, has stuck with me because it really was like a message being sent to help me get through the really tough time in my freshman year.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so incredible, the idea that that one word-
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
One word.
Glennon Doyle:
… that someone decides to say to you in a critical moment like that. That woman is walking around somewhere not knowing that she could have had an actual… She’s a factor in you.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yes, exactly. Exactly. I sometimes think about that, “I wonder if she knows?” I don’t know.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, yes. If she sees you on the court and she’s like, “I did that.” You talk a lot about belonging and where you felt at home and the fact that a angel, or not an angel, that that Black woman was able to look at you and see and recognize, “Oh, I know what’s happening there and I can intervene.”
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
It makes me think. You talk a lot about one of the things that was happening at Harvard was the dual consciousness kind of thing that had been through your whole life, that double voice, that you’re aware of how people are seeing you, and you’re representing your whole race, as opposed to just representing yourself.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
And then you find yourself with your other angels, Lisa and Antoinette and Nina, who are just… These are your four roomies. And tell us what that sisterhood… It reminds me of the woman crossing the street, the fully being known in a group of women like you for the first time, honestly. Right?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
The first time. No, it was amazing. There were other students who came to Harvard who had, like Lisa, for example, come from Black high schools, predominantly Black high schools. So, coming to Harvard for them was their first or maybe one of the first opportunities to be in a predominantly white environment, and they felt very much their minority status. For me, it was almost the opposite, because I had come from white schools where I was really 1, 2, 3 and that’s it in the whole set of classes that I typically took.
And coming to Harvard and having a sizable number of African Americans, and finding these women, who literally, we’re very close. Even today, they’re my sisters. I didn’t have any sisters, so to have sisters through school this way was just extraordinary. It was the most wonderful gift that I received, to be able to find these women, to bond with them, and to be able to call them my family now.
Glennon Doyle:
I love both of that, the sisterhood of people you’re doing life with and the effect of that, but also the sisterhood you can create in one passing moment in a crosswalk.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
That’s right. That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so gorgeous. Can you talk to us about your organizing at Harvard and tell us about how you guided your fellow organizers in your protests of the Confederate flag on the campus?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yeah, so I was not a leader in the BSA, one of the lead people, but I was active in the organization. And this Confederate flag incident was pretty challenging for Black students on campus when I was, I believe it was my junior year. And the portion of the campus where my dorm was and a number of Black students were living in this part of the campus, one of our fellow students decided to hang a Confederate flag in his window out into The Quad, the sort of main area where we all hung out, and shone a light through it. It was sort of a very clear symbol that really-
Amanda Doyle:
It was not incidental decoration.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
No, it was not. It was not. Very prominent.
Amanda Doyle:
There is a real statement.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
A real statement, and one that we at least took to be an affront to the African American students on campus. And there was a lot of a concern, there were protests, there were passing out leaflets, meetings and all kinds of rallies, and we were trying to get the administration to do something about it. And at the end of the day, what I noticed and what I was increasingly concerned about, was how distracting it was to be focused on this when we all had other things that we had been brought to campus to do and that we needed to do.
And so it reminded me of Toni Morrison’s observation that I had heard about and was really kind of passionate about. And so at one of the BSA meetings, I invoked it. And that is she once said that the very real purpose of racism is distraction, that it keeps you from doing the things that you were called upon to do because you’re always responding to these assertions that are totally made up and totally crazy, but you spend your time trying to diffuse the notion that you don’t have the right head shape or that you don’t have a kingdom, or that you can’t speak properly or whatever it is. And that we had to be mindful of that as we went through the process of responding to this.
And I think I just thought it was a wonderful sentiment and one that we really needed to take to heart, to ensure that we weren’t doing things that would cause us to not do as well in our classes, thereby reinforcing the very thing that the person who was doing this wanted to have happen.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, they wanted you to miss classes and drop out and say, “See, they don’t belong here.”
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Exactly. Exactly. So, it was a very strong and important memory and message, I thought, in that series of events.
Glennon Doyle:
Pod Squad, stop there for a second. I have young adult children, and often my son’s friends will reach out to me who are organizing on campuses, or one recently was organizing for queer rights and asking me for advice, and I said to her, “Also, go to class. While you’re doing this, the people who don’t want you to exist are getting better at poetry.”
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
“They’re learning history. Go to class.”
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly. And they’re probably not learning poetry. They’re probably in business school and they’re not going to hire you.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, well, I don’t know about that.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
But the point is well taken, right? That really, yes, there are things that are important and you want to exercise your right to speak out and to protest, and all of that is fine, but you also do have to get the education that you are there on campus to get. And that will further your cause as well, being an educated individual, making your way in the world.
Amanda Doyle:
And your own joy.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
And your own joy.
Amanda Doyle:
Now you’re spending your time. It’s that whole focusing on that devours you.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
That’s exactly right.
Amanda Doyle:
Literally, it’s devouring your time, is what your grandmother said. I loved Antoinette when she said, I just have to say this back because it was so, I was like, “Yes.” She said, after your speech, telling them to go to class, she said, “Our backs got straight, we faced forward, and our stride was sure. Because once we recognized the true toil of that Confederate flag, not just on our psyche but also our work, we were determined to get the last laugh.”
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yes, yes.
Amanda Doyle:
So good. So good. And it stayed through to you because it reminded me, this whole idea of undistracted, reminded me of the way your parents brought you up and then what happened at Harvard. And then in your confirmation hearings when the White House staffer says to you, “You can get exasperated at the tone of some of these questions, or you can be a Supreme Court justice.”
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
That’s correct. That’s correct. It was a very memorable thing for me. And it was like a light bulb. I was like, “Oh, yeah, I guess you’re right.” And I had that in my mind. I did have that in my mind as I went through the confirmation hearing, that, “What is more important in this moment? And the most important thing is for me to maintain my composure and demonstrate to people that I’m able to do this job in an even-handed and even-keeled way.”
Amanda Doyle:
And as you’re going through that, as you’re thinking about that, how much of your brain is also thinking, “Why did some of y’all before me was losing your composure not disqualifying?”? Is that a bridge too far? But also, that’s not cool that you have to keep your composure and other people don’t.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Well, what’s funny, is that that reminds me of the conversation I have with my grandmother that I talked about in the book, where she talks about the unfairness of life, where I’m complaining about walking through stores and feeling like I’m being policed when my friends go to the same store and they’re not. And that’s the point that you brought up earlier, where she says, “Don’t be devoured by the unfairness of life. To dwell on it is to be devoured by it.” And so I try not to think about things like that. I focus on the task at hand.
Amanda Doyle:
You sure do.
Glennon Doyle:
Which is amazing, since the task at hand for you is making things fair.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s real brain-teaser right there. I want to personally thank you for what was to me a monumentally beautiful and courageous part of your book, which is talking about Talia. And I am raising a neurodiverse child. I was also a lawyer, very low on the ladder, but also in big law in D.C. It was really moving, the way that you talked about how a whole life striving, a whole life of expectation of yourself.
And I’m just wondering if you could talk us through, you said that your idea, the only script you had to personal achievement, which I would argue is personal worth and value in some places was, “No excuses. You can do anything you put your mind to.” And you raised Talia that way for a while. Talk to us about how that evolved for you and how loving her evolved your understanding.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yes. Well, this was a very, very challenging period, because we talked about my parents early on and how they had raised me through high expectations and the belief that you can do anything, and whatever you put your mind to you can do, which they felt very strongly about because of their background and upbringing and wanting me not to succumb to negative messaging about my own limitations. And so that was my model for how you parent. You just say to your kid, “You’ve got this, keep going.”
And to find out that I had a daughter who really did have challenges that made it difficult, if not impossible for her at times, to do the things that I was expecting her to do. And it was very challenging, because I wanted to support her and wanted her to be successful, but I didn’t really know how to make that happen or help her make that happen because I wasn’t sure what was going on.
She wasn’t diagnosed with autism until she was in seventh grade. And so for all of her elementary school years, it was this tricky balance between wanting to push her the way I had been pushed so that she could actually rise to the expectations, and struggling with her at times really not being able to do it and melting down and having difficulty in school, and we had to homeschool her for a while as a result.
And I try in the book to be as transparent as possible about our struggles because I know I didn’t have, really, any reference point for this kind of thing when I was going through it. So I thought, with her permission, that I would be as transparent as possible, in the hopes that someone else who’s reading this book and has a similar situation will be able to learn from it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Did it change your idea of what success is? Because parenting seems to me like our parents teach us this way of climbing the ladder and we think we’re going to pass that onto our kid, and then our kid comes and we’re like, “Oh, wrong ladder. Totally different paradigm.”
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yes, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
So, did it change your ideas of what actually does make a successful life?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Absolutely. It definitely made me realize that each child is unique and different and beautiful in their own way, and they’re not all going to end up being little carbon copies of you, and that you have to let them reveal themselves. And once they do, be there to support and encourage whoever they turn out to be. It’s not going to be just who you think they are or who you want them to be. And that was tough, because my husband and I are very driven type A kinds of personalities, always thinking we can control things and wanting to control things, and this was something that was not in our control, and that was very challenging.
But I’m so proud of both of my daughters, and I’m proud that Talia in particular allowed me to talk about this. I very much wanted to get her permission, even though she’s an adult, and so it’s not like I’m revealing information that I had total control over it. I wanted her permission and she gave it freely, saying, “This is nothing to be ashamed of. This is accurate and it’s just who I am.”
Amanda Doyle:
“I’m still who I’ve always been,” she say.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
“I’m still who I’ve always been.” So, I really appreciate that because I think it will be very enlightening to some people who read this book.
Glennon Doyle:
And not just about parenting in general.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yes, exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
Just a model of what is so moving to me about it, is it is not the model that we hear of parenting, that it is our job to allow our children to reveal themselves, and then to support whatever it is they reveal. That is different than it is our job to shape and prod and push and… No, no, no. Allow to reveal.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yes, yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Because personally, it means a lot to me that Talia was brave enough and proud enough and secure enough to allow you to share this, but this could be said about anyone. If your child is queer, whoever they are, “It made me realize there’s nothing you could do to make Talia conform to your vision for her life. We could finally stop resisting the shape of things, stop desperately imagining some other dream of the future and embrace the potential of what was.”
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
That’s right. That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s everything.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Not settle for what is.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
Embrace the potential.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
I have a question that I wasn’t planning on asking, but do you think it’s, again, this straddling? Your life is so paradoxical, but I’m always trying to figure out, “How much do I just accept my kids exactly where they are, or are they just going to be living in my basement forever if I continue just to accept them exactly who they are?” Do you think if you had been raised with that not having your parents have a dream for you, that you’d still be where you are?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
I don’t know. I don’t know. This is the very tricky line that we have to walk as parents and as children, because you do want to allow them to reveal themselves. It’s very important that it’s life and not yours that is shaping and forming. And some children have very strong senses of what they want to do, who they are when they’re little, and that’s sort of an easier road in terms of assisting them or encouraging them.
But I don’t know whether I would have found this path or not. Is it inherent in me to be this kind of person? What I say in the book, is I talk a lot about my dad who was, I think, also a born striver, and he came from circumstances where he did not have this kind of encouragement. Single mom scenario, he was the youngest of five kids, much, much older kids, basically raising himself, and he was a striver. So it’s possible that I would have still struck off on this path, but it’s hard to say.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And there’s all different kinds of striving, too.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s the thing, Talia is striving to be herself.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
That is striving.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
You don’t have to just be on the hustle.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
That’s correct.
Amanda Doyle:
Well also, this from Talia. Okay. Then I’ll leave Talia alone, but I’m obsessed with her because I want to live like this. This is her description about when you told her that she had autism and she’s reporting back to you that experience of herself. She said, “I remember you were both so serious. I realize that this was very important to you and you really wanted me to understand something about it. But those french fries were hot and perfectly crisp, and I just really wanted to pay attention to them in that moment. Because later, they would be soggy, and who wants to eat soggy fries?”
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Oh my God. Obsessed.
Amanda Doyle:
How many people are out there living, eating soggy fries? Most of us.
Glennon Doyle:
If you don’t think that that one has the secrets to life nailed, you’re not reading closely enough.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
My daughter is very funny.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes, but that’s profound.
Glennon Doyle:
It is profound.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m going to start labeling my life in soggy fries and crisp fries.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. That’s right. “I realize this was very important to you.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, exactly. “There was something you really wanted me to know about this. I’m just over here being who I always was.”
Glennon Doyle:
Bless her. Okay. Now we leave Talia alone, but she’s a national treasure, is what she is.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m wondering, you in your Harvard application, okay, you’re 17 years old and you write in your application that you think that you should go to Harvard because it would be helpful to you in your dream to be the first… Your goal. Sorry, your goal. It wasn’t a dream. Your goal of being the first Black female Supreme Court justice to appear on a Broadway stage.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s wild that you said that when you were 17. The Broadway stuff, you’re going to have to read the book ’cause it’s so beautiful. I want to know, since you’re obviously prescient in this, what dreams do you have left? What are you writing in your yearbook?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
I haven’t gotten to the Broadway stage part yet, so.
Amanda Doyle:
There we go.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
I think being in a musical would be fantastic.
Glennon Doyle:
I can see that.
Amanda Doyle:
How can we make that happen?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
I would also, this is less of a big dream, I would also love to knit a sweater.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, yes.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
I taught myself to knit during the confirmation process, not this one, but when I was being considered for my first judgeship, and I’ve never gotten past a scarf, so I would really love to learn how to.
Amanda Doyle:
I believe in you.
Glennon Doyle:
I love that.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Thank you.
Amanda Doyle:
Really, no excuses. You can do anything you put your mind.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
I can do anything.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And I love the big dream, little dream thing. I have lots of big dreams out in the world, but also I would like to learn how to do my hair.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
There you are. That would be good.
Glennon Doyle:
Just big and little. Okay?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
Big and little.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you think that you could help us, like you’re talking to a second-grader, explain to us what the whole situation with the presidential immunity is and why it should make us as nervous as it made you?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Well, my hope would be that anybody who’s really interested would look at our opinions, because the Supreme Court justices do get to write out what our views are. That’s one of the things that distinguishes us from the other branches of government. Legislators, they vote, but they just vote. You don’t really know why they voted for what they voted for, whereas the justices actually get to write.
And so in that case, the majority of the justices, six of the justices, voted to adopt a system of partial immunity for former presidents. And the chief justice wrote the opinion and he writes and explains their position as to why they read the Constitution to require such a system and the benefits of such a system.
And I joined with Justice Sotomayor and Justice Kagan in dissent, arguing that we don’t see that kind of immunity in the constitution. And Justice Sotomayor in particular, articulated some of the concerns about a system that would afford some immunity to former presidents.
So, it’s hard to describe more specifically, but the big picture is that the court has recognized now, that in certain circumstances, former presidents cannot be prosecuted for acts that were committed or taken while they were in office.
Glennon Doyle:
And people can Google-
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
And people can Google.
Glennon Doyle:
… your opinions.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
And people can Google.
Amanda Doyle:
People can Google.
Glennon Doyle:
Excellent. Thank you so much.
Amanda Doyle:
I would just wonder if we could talk about the sense of belonging, because you’re this historic first in so many places. You talk about when you were eight, even when you’re that early, that it was exhausting. And that being alone was, you call, “A soul-deep sigh of relief,” ’cause you could just be one thing. It’s a real sacrifice and a toll to you, what you’ve done.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Thank you.
Amanda Doyle:
Can you talk about that? Because you’re so celebrated, as you should be, and it’s shiny and beautiful. And is it lonely and exhausting?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Well, I’m so honored to be in this position. I’m so grateful for all of the people who made this possible. I say in the beginning of the book that, “No one reaches the highest of heights on their own.” And I believe that, and it’s certainly true of me. And so part of writing this book, one of the reasons why I wrote it, was to pay tribute to the people and the circumstances that were responsible for preparing me to be ready for this moment. So I gladly and freely and gratefully accept the chance to serve the American people in this way.
There are times in which it is exhausting, there are times in which it is lonely, because judges really do have to contemplate a lot of very serious issues and do their best to follow and interpret the law, and not engage in political debates and that sort of thing. And so that does require a level of isolation. And it can be challenging, because especially when you are operating on a multi-member court the way we are.
For many years, I was a district judge, which meant I had my own cases, I was by myself. And that was really fun ’cause you could do whatever you wanted. But to be an appellate court is challenging because you do have a lot of give and take and you’re voting and you’re debating. But it’s an honor, it’s a true honor to be in this position. And I’ve been so grateful for all of the support that I’ve received, just wonderful, wonderful tributes and people sending me things. I mentioned in the book, the crocheted doll. And I think I put it in the photo-
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. The picture is there. It’s ridiculous. It’s beautiful.
Glennon Doyle:
Can you tell us that story?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
It’s beautiful. It was my favorite gift, a woman who crocheted it during my confirmation hearing while she was at home, washing.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like a prayer shawl.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yes, exactly. And then it just showed up in my office, she just sent it to me, and it was just spectacular. So, all of those things just make me feel so honored to do this work.
Amanda Doyle:
Joy is a big part of your life, too. It’s all the sacrifice, all the ridiculous… I just kept being like, “This isn’t possible, how hard this women work.” The next I’m like, “Again? I’m exhausted. Now we’re going to another clerkship? Oh my God.”
Glennon Doyle:
It made me wish that someone else had crossed another crosswalk after the persevere lady and said, “Take it easy.”
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
“Rest.”
Glennon Doyle:
“Just forget it.”
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly. But you say, “If one is to pour one’s heart and soul into a great and selfless assignment, then one must always have a way to replenish the spirit.” You have absolutely poured yourself into a very great and selfless assignment. So, what is your practice to fill your spirit up? Because this is not possible unless there’s some wild stuff happening on the replenishing.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Well, I have a lot of sources of energy and joy and hope. My family, my husband, who is spectacular.
Amanda Doyle:
Patrick. Oh my God.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
A spectacular human being who is incredibly selfless and does everything he can to support and promote and encourage me, my daughters who are wonderful human beings and are so proud of me in this endeavor, and I just want to do good for them. And as I say in the book, art, I love art. And I love performing arts, I love visual arts, I love going to museums, all of those things. The creative side of me gets filled up when I get to see a wonderful performance or I get to learn about a new and upcoming artist and see their works. So I try to do as much of that as I can, alongside the work that I have to do from day to day.
Glennon Doyle:
Before we end, do you have any recent favorite artists?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Oh, recent favorite artists? Well, I think I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention Glenn Ligon. I tend to like modern art a little bit more, so he does a lot of modern things. And an artist from Alabama whose name is Lonnie Holley, who does a lot of interesting work with a foundation called Souls Grown Deep, which features Southern Black artists. And so those are two that come to mind right off the top of my head.
But I also love Alma Thomas, who’s from Washington D.C. and does a lot of modern art as well. Yeah, my mother was the principal of a school for the arts in Miami, one of their premier schools. And my parents’ home is filled with her students’ arts, and we used to go to performances and all sorts of things, getting connection with the school. So, this has been a passion of mine for a long time and I love it.
Glennon Doyle:
What a family. I just picture the planet, and you know when you see those pictures of the planet at night and all the lights are lit up?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like your family is just like fluorescent, beaming off the planet.
Amanda Doyle:
One of these lights is not like the other.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
You’re very sweet.
Amanda Doyle:
I have a last question, which is, if there is a person who is crossing that metaphorical path right now and they are feeling like they don’t belong, and they do not know if they’re up for this challenge. And it’s a young Black woman like you, and it’s right now, what do you say as you’re crossing them?
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Oh my goodness. I say connect. I say connect. And I hope to encourage her to connect to other people who can provide support for her to connect to a subject or a teacher, just one thing, an extracurricular activity, one thing that she can put her focus on. And that will help, I think, to crowd out some of the other negative feelings.
Glennon Doyle:
Profound. Different than individualistic, just persevering, connect.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Connect.
Glennon Doyle:
Others.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Connect.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re not alone. Collective.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re smart.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Well, you guys are great. Thank you so much. This has been a delight. I really enjoyed it.
Amanda Doyle:
Lovely One is out now. It’s just a joy and it’s beautiful, and you’re an inspiration and we’re thankful for your sacrifice. And we are thank so joyful that you are representing us in the Supreme Court, so thank you.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Thank you. Thank you so much. Take care.
Glennon Doyle:
Bye-bye.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Bye-bye.
Glennon Doyle:
Bye, Pod Squad.
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson:
Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us If you’d be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you ’cause you’ll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you’ll never miss an episode.
To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you’re there, if you’d be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.
We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle, in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Weiss-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LoGrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz. I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlile.