Being Left Out: Navigating that Lifelong Ache
September 14, 2023
Glennon Doyle:
Hello, friends. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today, we are going to talk about the feeling of being left out. And we’re going to discuss how to survive that feeling.
Abby Wambach:
God, it’s the worst.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s just the worst. And how even maybe occasionally to transcend that feeling, but I don’t even know. We’re just going to talk a lot about how to survive life as an adult and a kid with this constant recurring feeling that never really goes away completely, does it?
Abby Wambach:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
And I think there’s a lot of different levels of it and we’ll discuss all of them, but just the feeling of rejection.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my gosh.
Amanda Doyle:
And isolation.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, isolation.
Amanda Doyle:
And also, however good belonging feels, however good being in when you’re like you are in with that person, you are their person and they’re not going to do anything without you. It’s like that feels so good and being left out is the equal and opposite of that amazing feeling.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Do you have stories?
Abby Wambach:
I have one. Instantly, I have the first time that I felt so hard. Basically, I was left out of everything as the youngest of seven kids. But one in particular had nothing to do with my family, it was my friends. I lived pretty close to one of my childhood best friends, and so I would ride my little bike down to her house.
Abby Wambach:
And back then, you didn’t really call, we had no cell phones, so you just showed up at people’s houses and you knock on their door and you’re like, “You want to play?”
Abby Wambach:
And so, I knock on Susie’s door and she has a friend over, another friend of mine, Caitlin, and they’re hanging out. And I walk in, walk into the house. And eventually, this must’ve been four or five minutes being there, they just said, “We don’t want you here.”
Amanda Doyle:
How old were you?
Abby Wambach:
I must’ve been seven or eight. And I was like, “Okay.” And so, I got back on my bike, and the worst part is it’s an uphill all the way home. And so, I think I was crying a little bit and I got myself together because I now had to go say it out loud to my parents-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s the worst.
Abby Wambach:
… to my mom, who knew that I had just left 10 minutes ago. So, I get home and my mom says, “What are you doing back?” And I said, “They didn’t want to play with me.” And she said, “What?” And I said, “Yeah, they told me that they didn’t want me there.”
Abby Wambach:
And so, I don’t know, I just remember sitting down at the kitchen table just baffled and confused. I come from this family who is like, you walk in the house and everybody’s like, “Come on in, the more, the merrier.” I had never been experienced with any boundaries before.
Amamda Doyle:
First of all, I didn’t even know you could say that. Second of all, I can’t believe someone just said it to me.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, it hurt my feelings a lot. And I get over stuff pretty quickly, but obviously this one was a big one because I still remember it.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s an imprint.
Abby Wambach:
It’s one of the only things I remember from my childhood.
Glennon Doyle:
Can you feel it in your body right now?
Abby Wambach:
Just sick to my stomach, especially being in a big family. My friends were really important to me throughout my whole life because all of these people in my house, they have to like me in a way. They have to love me. And so, friendship was really important for me to get a sense of myself. So, this was a toughie because I was like, “I don’t know what’s happening.”
Glennon Doyle:
A sense of myself, that’s an interesting way to describe it. Because it feels like I’m being isolated or I’m being shut out, but what it gets at more deeply is self-worth. Am I not worth anything? Am I not good? Am I not likable? Am I not enough? It’s self-worth, right?
Abby Wambach:
All of those. I mean, guess who struggles still with that, but might’ve imprinted right then and there.
Glennon Doyle:
Damn, Caitlin.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re not alone.
Abby Wambach:
Susie and Caitlin.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re not alone in that.
Abby Wambach:
I forgive you. I mean, we were eight or something.
Amanda Doyle:
Caitlin, I don’t forgive you. It’s interesting because this needs to belong. If you look at Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, the belonging need is above the shelter basic life things, and it makes sense.
Amanda Doyle:
And I feel like this is important because this idea of we’re all laughing about how you’re seven years old and you’re kicked out of the house and it’s still there, but it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective for millions of years, isolation equals death.
Amanda Doyle:
We are a pack of people. You don’t survive by yourself. So, you have be included in the group to survive. And our society has changed so much, but it still affects the exact same part of the brain. The part of the brain that when you get left out gets triggered when they do brain imaging, it’s the dorsal interior cingulate.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s the exact same place where we experience physical pain. And they’ve actually done studies where the treatment for physical pain, when you treat being left out, it ameliorates the pain because there was no difference when you think about our species of having a wound versus being kicked out of the group.
Amanda Doyle:
And so, it’s still there in us. And now, it’s even more confusing because we have this intellectual disconnect between being like that is so silly that I feel this strongly that at my office they don’t invite me to sit in the group of people, but it’s because our body doesn’t know the difference. Our body thinks we’re going to die.
Glennon Doyle:
Our body thinks we’re in a herd and we’ve been picked off from the herd, and that’s how animals die as they get kicked out of the herd and then they’re left alone. Well, humans, that’s how humans died. I mean, that’s why it’s in our bodies so much still is because this has only been a little blip on the radar where we could ostensibly get through life independently, which arguably we can’t.
Abby Wambach:
I guess the good news for me though is that this experience informed so much of the rest of my life because I am so inclusive. I actually can probably pinpoint this moment being one of the first times where I started to really be like, “Wow, I need to be more aware of including everyone because I now know what it feels like to not be included.”
Abby Wambach:
And I think though it was heartbreaking, I just think about all the new kids coming in on the national team and how terrified they were, and I would walk right up to them. I would invite them to sit at my table at the meal rooms, just trying to be almost overly inclusive, probably a little bit too much.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m remembering right now, a lot of my early traumatic memories were from cafeterias in school, but I’m remembering elementary school cafeteria. I remember there were these big grapes and watermelons painted on the wall.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, my God. Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
And then, if you got in trouble, you had to go put your nose up against a grape. That’s so wild. In front of everybody, you just have to stand. But I remember being at a circle table. I think we had assigned tables and there were a bunch of different circle tables, so you’d have seven people at.
Glennon Doyle:
And there was this one group that was in my class of girls, and it was always an in and out thing, like you were in, you were out, you were in, you were out of this group.
Glennon Doyle:
It was like as good as what you were saying, sister, as good as the belonging felt, there was always the threat of unbelonging, because every week there’d be somebody who was out for whatever reason. And then, it was pretty brutal. The group would just turn on that person for the week. And so, I was being turned on quite often, because I was on the fringe-
Amanda Doyle:
Periphery.
Glennon Doyle:
I was a periphery person, not in charge. I was not a ringleader. So, there’s not a lot of power then you just get in and out. And I just remember this one day, I will call her Michelle-
Abby Wambach:
You’re covering-
Glennon Doyle:
… because that is in fact her name.
Amanda Doyle:
I will call her Fruchelle.
Glennon Doyle:
And she actually turned out to be a lovely person. But she looked at me and she said, “Oh, my God, your hair is so greasy. You could start a car with all of the grease in your hair.”
Abby Wambach:
Oh, shit.
Glennon Doyle:
And then, I remember this really, really nice kid named Buster.
Abby Wambach:
Cool name.
Glennon Doyle:
He was at the table and he goes, “You don’t start a car with grease, you start a car with oil.” And I was like, “Buster, I don’t think that’s as helpful as you think it is at the moment.” But I remember in that moment in the cafeteria, the reason I’m remembering the watermelons and the grapes is that I dissociated and went to play with my imaginary orangutan friend who used to-
Amanda Doyle:
Wow, this is a good jump.
Abby Wambach:
Hold on a second. Hold on.
Glennon Doyle:
You guys.
Abby Wambach:
I’ve never heard of imaginary orangutan. Have you, sissy?
Amanda Doyle:
Literally neither have I.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my God.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m telling you because I can remember moving my attention from that table where I was stuck, where they were being so mean to me and looking up at the corner, the upper corner where I used to have this friend who was an imaginary friend.
Abby Wambach:
What was the friend’s name?
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t know. I just remember him being an-
Abby Wambach:
Orangutan.
Glennon Doyle:
… orangutan. And feeling like, “Oh, this is okay. This isn’t really happening. I’ve got my little friend here who’s going to be with me all day.”
Abby Wambach:
This is something.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m looking at your faces and I’m feeling like maybe this is less related story-
Amanda Doyle:
No. First of all, I’m like, “Is it orangutan or orangutan?”
Glennon Doyle:
I think it’s orangutan.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, well-
Abby Wambach:
Orangutan.
Amanda Doyle:
… don’t say you didn’t learn something today.
Abby Wambach:
I think it’s with a G at the end.
Amanda Doyle:
We’ll find that out.
Abby Wambach:
Can somebody find out for us?
Amanda Doyle:
I feel like it’s the least of our concerns right now.
Glennon Doyle:
Listen, my point was sometimes the horror of the left outness feeling, which can feel like death can lead us to things that become survival skills in our lives, like for Abby, inclusiveness and for me, imagination.
Amanda Doyle:
No. Well, disassociation. No, but orangutan becomes-
Abby Wambach:
Orangutans, wow.
Amanda Doyle:
… orangutans become bulimia, right? Because if you’re like, “Okay, don’t worry about the outside drama. I have my own interior thing that I can control and rely on even if it’s not kind to me at least it’s not in this wild west.” That is fascinating. Wow. I wanted to follow up on Abby’s thing, but I feel like we’re out of the shallow now because-
Glennon Doyle:
Did you guys not have imaginary friends?
Abby Wambach:
No, never.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, God.
Abby Wambach:
I didn’t. And I think it’s cool that you did.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like imaginary friends and stuffed animals and comfort things like my blankie. I had my blankie until college. I feel like comfort things that are controllable by me.
Abby Wambach:
I like this.
Amanda Doyle:
They’re adaptations. It makes sense. I mean, that’s also very evolutionary, right? You’re like, well, I find this to be an inhospitable environment. I will adapt to make it less so.
Glennon Doyle:
You know who never leaves you out?
Amanda Doyle:
Because my goal is to survive.
Glennon Doyle:
You know who never leaves you?
Abby Wambach:
An imaginary orangutan.
Glennon Doyle:
That thing loved me.
Amanda Doyle:
You were the center of its world. Grease or no grease.
Abby Wambach:
I think that this is interesting because we can talk about all the kinds of ways we get left out. How we handle it is really what this conversation’s about because we’ve all been left out. But what do we turn to? What do we try to use to solve that heartbreak or that hurt?
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you. Because you know what, one way to look at that is that that’s dissociation, that’s crazy, that’s whatever. But another way to look at that is remembering that there’s always something within you that will help you withstand the rejection of something outside of you and that you have everything you need internally to be your own friend.
Abby Wambach:
So cool.
Glennon Doyle:
I am interested in being left out as why? Why does it happen? Why do people do it? What is the actual nexus of it?
Amanda Doyle:
So, we’ve all been left out. We all still feel as upset about it when we’re 45 as when we’re seven. But are we actually being left out a lot of the time? Because often, I feel that way. I have such a strong reaction to even a perceived being left out as I do through the actually being left out, and what is happening at the center of that when folks are leaving people out.
Amanda Doyle:
So, I want to tell a story about something recently that happened with Alice that I think relates to all of this. Bobby was on a new baseball team, so there’s always a new set of siblings involved in that, if we’re lucky, if not, it’s really, really, really long doubleheaders with no siblings.
Abby Wambach:
New set of siblings for Alice to play with.
Amanda Doyle:
For Alice to play with, yes, ideally. So, we really looked out. There are two on this team. She loves both of them. Hallelujah to all of us. And they’re playing during the games. So, before one of the games, she asks if she can invite this girl, Sarah, I’m changing the names. But she says, “Can I have Sarah over after the game?” I say, “Sure, that’s great.”
Amanda Doyle:
So, we go to the game. She and Sarah find each other, they’re playing. And then, the other little friend Amy is also at the game. So, they’re all playing together at the game. And I say to Alice, “Oh, Amy’s here. Let’s invite her also to come back after the game with Sarah.”
Amanda Doyle:
And she has this tentative face, like I don’t feel comfortable with that. And I just noted it but overwrote her. I was like, “No, I’m inviting.” So, at the end of the game, I say to Amy’s mom, “Can Amy come back to the house with us?” And she has this really funny face on her and she’s like, “Oh, no, no, no. She has something. She has something.”
Amanda Doyle:
And it was very odd. I sensed something weird, and I just mostly wanted to just run directly out of the game with Alice and Sarah because I was uncomfortable, don’t understand what’s happening, feel weird. Everything’s weird. So, then, I see Alice and Sarah.
Amanda Doyle:
I go up and talk to them and I’m like, “Hey, Alice, what’s going on?” And I find out that Alice has told Sarah that she doesn’t want Amy to come. And Sarah has told Amy that Alice doesn’t want to come. And Amy has told her mother that Alice doesn’t want Amy to come.
Amanda Doyle:
And Alice is very kindhearted so this was odd for the ecosystem. And I said, “Alice, if we don’t invite Amy, she’s going to feel bad.” And Alice said, “Well, if she isn’t invited, she will feel bad. But if she is invited, I will feel bad. Why should I feel bad to make her feel better?”
Abby Wambach:
Fair.
Amanda Doyle:
And I’m like, “This is a very valid point and I should at least feel equally empathetic to my daughter’s feelings as I do to other daughter’s feelings.” So, I was like, “Okay, could you share with me why? Because I know that this girl is nice to you and you like her, and why don’t you want her to come?”
Amanda Doyle:
“Why are you going to feel so bad if she comes?” And she said, “I am scared that if Amy comes, Amy and Sarah will not want to play with me and I will be left out.”
Glennon Doyle:
Wow. It’s left out inception.
Amanda Doyle:
Left out inception. And it was such a revelation to me because first of all, that she could put that into words. That instead of just being like, “No, I don’t want to.” She was like, “I am scared about being left out, so better her than me.” And I was like, “Wow.”
Amanda Doyle:
So, I look at this girl, Sarah, and I’m like, “Sarah, Alice is clearly worried about Amy coming because she’s going to feel left out. Do you think you could work together to make sure everyone’s being included?” And God bless this little girl.
Amanda Doyle:
She puts her hand immediately around Alice and goes, “Of course.” It was so sweet. And then I say, look at Alice and she expresses that if she knows she’s not going to be left out, she actually would love to play with both of them.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my God, I have the chills.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s crazy. So, then, I brought all three of the girls together and all of their parents because now this is a weird thing here. And I’m like, “Okay. So, Amy, you’re probably having a lot of feelings because you heard that Alice didn’t want you to come over to our house, and I just want to say that that is true.”
Amanda Doyle:
“Alice didn’t want you to come over to the house, but I need you to know why. And that’s because she was worried about you two playing and leaving her out. And so, both of you were having the exact same fears at the exact same time that both of you were worried about being left out right now.”
Amanda Doyle:
“And I think that we can actually solve that all together by making sure no one feels that way and we all play together.” And they were like, “Oh, yeah, that really stinks when that happens. I feel that way too.” So, then, they all went home to the house. And they also, because we had just put it out in center, they were negotiating it themselves for the next four hours.
Abby Wambach:
It’s amazing.
Amanda Doyle:
It was like every 20 minutes they’d be checking on each other like, “Is this good for you? Are you having fun? Do you want to play this game? Because we’re only going to play a game, we can all play together.”
Amanda Doyle:
And it just made me think, I wonder how many times that the things that we do, the things that I do that impact others that are experienced as meanness to others are actually just acts of self-preservation. We think, okay, my emotional survival right now depends on sacrificing someone else’s, because there’s no way that everything can be fine here.
Amanda Doyle:
And so, to protect myself, you’re out. And I bet that’s happening a lot more than we think it is. In fact, your situation, Abby, with your friends. It could have been less about, “Oh, we don’t want you here and more about I want someone to pay attention to me. And if Abby’s here, my friend is only going to pay attention to Abby and I just want to be seen.” Like we all just want to-
Abby Wambach:
100%. And it’s so important, sister, that you had the bravery and the courage to figure this out and then talk about it. Of course, I probably went home and I’m sure my mom was probably like, “Well, they’re just mean girls.” That’s probably where it ended rather than trying to really get to the bottom of it because these kids have now developed a much deeper bond.
Abby Wambach:
Because now they’re all aware that there’s this fear of being left out, and so they’re going to be much more conscious of it and then they can negotiate it themselves. It’s so cool.
Abby Wambach:
I do think we need to have a language for our kids around this. There needs to be, I don’t know, a scoring system like do you feel left out something that’s very common where there can be a check-in moment.
Glennon Doyle:
And maybe there’s a room to discuss left outness because that whole thing is so beautiful and is ideal, the way that scenario played out sometimes and for a certain age group. But there might be room to discuss left outness with maybe kids who are a little older or as not just always a problem to fix.
Glennon Doyle:
Because if people make choices about who they’re going to spend their time with socially based on what they really need in the moment, not necessarily based on whether the other person who’s being left out is worthy or not or mean or not.
Glennon Doyle:
But if sometimes it’s about what I need right now, I’m having this person and not that person, then there’s room for a conversation about it not needing to be fixed all the time. Maybe you’re not there, not because you’re bad, but because they needed something else in that moment. Do you know what I mean?
Glennon Doyle:
Certainly, when my kids were little, I wasn’t thinking this way, so it always felt like a problem to fix right away. Certainly, you’re being left out and you shouldn’t be left out. I think for me, I sometimes feel left out as an adult if parties are happening.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t even want to go to the parties obviously, but I can still feel left out because people don’t invite me to things sometimes when there’s going to be drinking there, because they know me and they know that I won’t want to be there.
Glennon Doyle:
But maybe they don’t want to feel awkward because they know the whole thing’s going to be revolving around drinking. And they know that if I’m there, they’re going to have to have this consciousness about me too. So, I am being left out of that. But it’s not because I’m bad, it’s because they want to feel a certain way. And so, that doesn’t need to be fixed actually.
Abby Wambach:
You know about the Snapchat map sister, right?
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Abby Wambach:
So, Snapchat is the way that teenagers now are mostly communicating. And there’s a map, literally, you would see on your GPS on Apple Maps or whatever, or Google that locates where that kid is. So, let’s say you’re at home and you see all your friends in one place and you’re not there, you know that there’s a party that you weren’t invited to.
Glennon Doyle:
They all know where all their friends are at all the time.
Abby Wambach:
It’s ruthless.
Amanda Doyle:
So, there’s no more FOMO.
Abby Wambach:
No.
Amanda Doyle:
There’s like confirmo.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
There’s no fear of missing out. I’m just real sure I’m being-
Glennon Doyle:
Proof of missing out. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Proof of missing out.
Abby Wambach:
It’s so intense.
Amanda Doyle:
Can we listen to the voicemail from Stacy because I think that that relates to what you were just talking about, Glennon?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Stacy:
Hi, Glennon. My name is Stacy. My question is the seven-year-old daughter, she goes to aftercare program. Yesterday the counselor said, “Some of the girls are getting cliquey.” And I don’t know if this is a problem. My daughter has experienced being left out when her neighbor was with a bunch of friends and she was excluded.
Stacy:
So, she knows what it feels like to be excluded. And my question is how do we help the kids learn how to include people but also know that sometimes they just want to play with their two friends.
Stacy:
And then, if we do teach them to include everyone all the time, are we teaching them that they have to be responsible for the other kids feeling any discomfort? Because I’ve seen that play out and I don’t want to teach my child that she has to be responsible for other people’s discomfort all the time.
Abby Wambach:
God, this is such a good one.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel it.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s so good.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel there’s some truth in this. I mean, I think there could be an and both of teaching kids to kindly express their needs and wants. There’s levels of left outness. And when we go into meanness and bullying, we don’t want you to hear meanness.
Glennon Doyle:
But I remember when I was teaching third grade trying to help kids express to each other, “I just need a little bit of time with Jason right now.” Or, “I don’t like having a lot of people around. It’s too loud. So, I just like to play with two people at a time.”
Glennon Doyle:
Really getting into what I need so it’s less about the other person. But I do feel like when we obsess about our kids being included in every single thing or including things in every single thing, we are teaching them that to not be included is a problem that they can’t handle.
Glennon Doyle:
Because if we jump in and fix things, then what that is saying to the kid is, “Oh, that was a bad thing. It’s so bad my mom has to step in and fix it because this is survivable.” So, I do think there’s a way of not accepting bullying, not accepting meanness. Yes, but also teaching our kids that it’s okay to want and need and set up certain social situations for themselves to meet their own needs.
Abby Wambach:
Totally. Because if they’re trying to please this inclusiveness, then sometimes they’re leading themselves in the vein of trying to make sure everybody’s included. So, trying to teach your kids kindly how to not only ask for what you want but also be in a place where you’re not mean when you do ask for what you want.
Abby Wambach:
It’s hard though, because we want to teach our kids so many things about connectivity, but also that they can handle being left out. I think that you’re right.
Glennon Doyle:
I know. It does get tricky. Because I remember as a teacher, where’s there’s the line? Then, there’s often a couple kids that are always left out for reasons that are beyond their control and that’s not okay either.
Amanda Doyle:
We’re talking about two different things. When we’re talking about inclusivity, that is a posture towards the world. When you’re like, “I hope that my kids are people who have an eye for the person who’s being left out situationally.” To be able to look and see, I can tell that person doesn’t have someone in this moment.
Amanda Doyle:
That person is sitting by themselves, that person is new. I have the ability to do something about that in this moment to change this person’s moment for them and to risk a little bit of my social capital to make this less of a circle and more of a horseshoe, that feels very different, a different conversation.
Amanda Doyle:
And that’s an orientation towards the world. And that’s a training of your eye to see things that other people don’t see versus I feel like I can’t ever invite best friend A over without best friend B. That’s a very different analysis.
Amanda Doyle:
And so, I think a culture of inclusivity where we’re looking for those folks is very important. But it doesn’t mean that we need to always go on the checklist and include everyone every single time when we really feel like some private time with person A.
Amanda Doyle:
Living in fear of being labeled a mean person is just as awful as being a mean person. It’s just your intentions. I’m 44, I still feel like this once a week and explaining to your kids, this is just the murky waters you’re going to be wading in for always. And we’re really sensitive to it.
Amanda Doyle:
And our bodies and our minds are designed to be really sensitive to it. So, this is going to happen a lot. And it also doesn’t necessarily mean anything in any particular instance.
Glennon Doyle:
Doesn’t mean anything a lot.
Amanda Doyle:
This person could have just run into that person and they’ve gone home. And in our heads, we make it a whole story about how now you’re on the outs. This is an inevitable part of life, resolve it in yourself. Think about it when you’re thinking about other people.
Amanda Doyle:
But also, I think we as adults can be less cagey. I just feel like sometimes we… even with our own friend groups or even when we’re navigating this on our kids’ halves, it’s like we try to disappear when someone could have the feeling of left out. It’s like we just go dark or go, “Huh.”
Amanda Doyle:
As opposed to being like, “We’re getting together with these people. Do you have time next week to get together?” Or “Alice is having friend A over today so we can’t make it. We’d love to plan another date with B.” I just feel like we hide and then that makes it so weird for everyone rather than being direct about it.
Glennon Doyle:
I think there’s a way to explain to kids, because I feel like this way as an adult, what you’re saying about a posture to the world of inclusivity, I think there’s a way of explaining and understanding things that we have front yard experiences. Our front yard experiences are times where there’s everybody’s around.
Glennon Doyle:
So, those can be at the school, those can be at the neighborhood, those can be in the cafeteria, the library, whatever. And during those times, we have certain ways of being which are open and we make sure that everybody has a place. We make sure that we are including people.
Glennon Doyle:
We look for the lonely kid. We think about who’s probably lonely in this situation. Those are front yard experiences. But there’s a different level of intimacy when we say, “Okay. Now, we’re coming inside. You’re coming into my foyer. Who are those people that make you feel comfortable when you’re in your foyer?”
Glennon Doyle:
You’re not all the way inside yet, but you get to decide those people. And then, you have those people that are at your kitchen table like, “Who are those friends?” You get to decide as you invite people further into your home and your life. Who makes you feel that you can exist the most?
Glennon Doyle:
You actually don’t have to exist the most in the front yard, that’s a different communal experience. But then, you get to decide who you invite further and further in. And we can’t and probably shouldn’t force kitchen table experiences on our kids or ourselves with people that make us feel like we have to abandon ourselves not to abandon them.
Glennon Doyle:
In the front yard, it’s a little bit different. But I think when we force it on them at the kitchen table, they’re learning to then abandon themselves so that they don’t abandon the other person. And I’m not sure that’s correct. I think there is a compromise, honestly.
Glennon Doyle:
I have learned that I don’t walk around talking about orangutans in the front yard all the time. I think there is a different me that is in the front yard. I don’t want to have to care that much about worrying about everyone’s at the kitchen table. I want to just be able to be me, and I think that’s probably what kids are saying.
Abby Wambach:
Honestly sister, the reason why your situation with Alice worked out is because the adult in the room got the kids together and figured out how to communicate this stuff to the kids in a way where they could hear it and then they could actually negotiate it afterwards.
Amanda Doyle:
It also worked out because Alice was-
Abby Wambach:
Super honest.
Amanda Doyle:
… like, “I do really want to be with both of these people. I just want both of these people to want to be with me.”
Abby Wambach:
So cool.
Amanda Doyle:
So, that’s a very different type of story. If she would’ve been like, “Actually, I think Sarah’s a jackass.” this would’ve been not that outcome and then it would’ve been a lot hairier.
Amanda Doyle:
I just think that’s one aspect of things which I think often the “mean girls”, “the cliquey things” are more about, I am so desperate to ensure that I am not the one on the outs that I’m willing to go along with anything that will keep me on the ends. If it means keeping that person out to keep me in, I’m willing to do it because it’s such a survival instinct.
Glennon Doyle:
We should do exactly what you did with the little ones as much as possible. But I think what we learn as they grow is that trying to fix everyone’s left outness is a little bit like rearranging chairs on the Titanic, like left outness is coming no matter what.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like what you said at the beginning, there are some things in life that are so beautiful that they by nature have an opposite that comes with it. It goes back to me telling my little one like, “Okay, that’s great. You’re in love, but you’re going to get crushed.”
Glennon Doyle:
Love is so amazing and it’s terrifying because it has this opposite, which is loss. Or expressing yourself and showing yourself is so beautiful and amazing that oh, my God, it has this opposite thing, which is criticism, which you will experience if you have the beautiful thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Or go and explore but then there’s this thing called homesickness if you do or try, try but then there’s this thing called failure. Or grow up but then there’s this thing called nostalgia. Or look for friendship and belonging in that delicious feeling but there’s this thing also called left outness and disconnection.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s like we can fix it in a million different ways, but that only lasts for so long. And then, there’s this time where we have to just say, “Oh, my God, I can tell you’re feeling that thing. Let me tell you about when I feel that thing.” Because you just have to meet each other there. There’s no fixing it.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s coming back every other month for the rest of your life. And it might be sometimes because they just forgot you or it might be because they actually don’t like you. It exists as the shadow side of connection. And so, we just meet each other there.
Amanda Doyle:
And that is because you are a human.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
It will feel so overwhelmingly awful, and it’s supposed to. Let me explain to you why. There’s nothing particularly wrong with you and there is nothing particularly fragile about you that you feel this awful, it feels that same way to me, happened to me last week.
Amanda Doyle:
I think that is the answer. And it’s also the answer when they do it to other people and other people get really upset. It’s like, “Oh, that’s what they were feeling.” It doesn’t mean you should have done anything different. It means that they’re having this huge strong reaction because their need to feel connected is just as strong as yours.
Amanda Doyle:
So, you can understand why they’re having that reaction. Remember last week when it happened to you, it’s so visceral and we experience it so much that when we see our kids go through it, my heart starts racing, my breath starts, it feels like I have to fix this, anything that happens. If I just see it happening in front of me, I am done.
Abby Wambach:
Yup, same.
Amanda Doyle:
And that’s a very real thing too, but there’s these studies that show that if you do the totally natural thing where you rush in and try to fix it, you get on your phone and start texting and be like, “Don’t worry, I’ll just set up a play date for tomorrow. Don’t worry, I’ll figure all this out.”
Amanda Doyle:
That they already have shame and embarrassment when this happens to them. And one of the reasons they don’t tell us about it is that they don’t want us to think that they’re incapable of making friends.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
They feel like they’re incapable of making friends already, and so they’re already ashamed and they’re already embarrassed. But when we rush in as if this is a crisis and a problem, then they’re like, see, confirmed.
Amanda Doyle:
This is a big problem that I had this happen to me and this is something very wrong. As opposed to like, damn it, really? That sucks. I’m so sorry, tell me about it. And then, I’ll tell you about when it happened to me last week.
Glennon Doyle:
We add shame by fixing it. Because what they knew before was this almost feels unbearable. I’m so sad. And then, we can either meet them there and say, “Oh my God, I totally know this unbearable feeling. I’ve had it. Here’s when I had it.” Then, we’re both just sad together.
Glennon Doyle:
But if we add, “Oh, my God, I’m calling Johnny’s mom.” Then, we add, “Oh, you should be ashamed of this. This is so bad that your mom has to fix it. That’s how bad it is.”
Abby Wambach:
Oh, God, it’s so hard when your kids go through the things that trigger you from your trauma. And I think that that’s what this is like we’re trying to fix this thing because we don’t want them to experience possibly the most human experience. This is really that paradox, Glennon.
Glennon Doyle:
Most human.
Abby Wambach:
It’s just so human. And so, let’s teach them how to work through their feelings of this because then they won’t attach their worthiness to whether they’re getting included or not if they’re able to actually work through some of it.
Amanda Doyle:
And it’s all such a band-aid because truly we’re never going to save them from this feeling.
Abby Wambach:
Nope.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what I mean.
Amanda Doyle:
So, really, all we’re doing is having a full-on panic attack anytime we see it about to happen and being like, “Not today, Satan.” And we try to get in front of it, but it’s just leaving it for another day. Because like what you said-
Glennon Doyle:
Satan’s like, “Okay, tomorrow then.”
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like at the table at lunch. If today is not their day to be left out, tomorrow will be. And we are just so desperate for it not to be today that we’re doing the same shit the kids at the table are doing or whatever it takes to make it not my day.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. But really it’s just-
Amanda Doyle:
Instead of just being like, today’s her day. I feel like we’ve been talking a lot about kids and that’s like a self-protection. We’re like, “Oh, these poor kids.”
Glennon Doyle:
I know.
Amanda Doyle:
I think we should talk about this happening in adulthood because really the loneliness we talk about it as kids because it’s easier in some ways even though we pretend like it’s harder. But the spikes in loneliness actually happen in the 20s, in the mid-50s and in the late 80s. The kids are not as lonely as we project them to be. We are as lonely as we are making them.
Glennon Doyle:
But I do think-
Amanda Doyle:
Believe they are.
Glennon Doyle:
… if we talked about it differently earlier, we would understand it differently as adults.
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you know what I mean? I think if we didn’t avoid it like the plague when we were little, it wouldn’t be something that felt so devastating as adults. It’s why I don’t see them as separate.
Amanda Doyle:
And reverse. If we could understand it, if we could talk about it about ourselves now as this is inevitable and sucks and you just have to endure it, then we would probably be less likely to try to futile save our kids from it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
So, let’s hear from Danielle.
Danielle:
My name’s Danielle. I’m on my way from work and [inaudible 00:42:47]. I don’t even know how to say this. Is there anything that you can say regarding feeling left out even as an adult grown woman? I know I was very sensitive when I was a little kid. If I didn’t get invited somewhere or anything like that, I think people say, “Oh, that’s normal. She’s little and she’s hurt by that.”
Danielle:
But I still feel that way as a grown 20 something year old adult. I’m 27 going on 28 this year. There’s just, I guess you could say me and girls at work and I used to be friends with them and now I’m not.
Danielle:
And believe me, I don’t want to be, but it’s just I’m still human and I still just want to be included. And feeling left out is probably the worst feeling in the world. I just wanted to call you guys and say thank you for the pod and that I love you all, thank you.
Abby Wambach:
Danielle.
Glennon Doyle:
I love Danielle. I have a whole story in my mind about Danielle already.
Abby Wambach:
Fuck those bitches at work.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, I wasn’t you going to go with that.
Abby Wambach:
Sorry. You can cut that if you want.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I love you.
Abby Wambach:
I know.
Glennon Doyle:
I love Danielle. Okay. So, here’s what I’m thinking about Danielle. I love Danielle. I feel like she probably had her own orangutan as a kid. I’m with Danielle. So, she says that she was within with the “mean girls at work” and now she’s not, which means that probably Danielle tried to be in with the mean girls, whatever that means.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m not claiming that term. I know it’s problematic. I’m just responding. So, I was thinking when Danielle was talking about what Brene talks about, Dr. Brene Brown, about the difference between belonging and fitting in. And that most of us just try to fit in, which means we look at a group and we say, “Okay, what are they doing?”
Glennon Doyle:
“What are they wearing? How are they talking?” And then, we change ourselves to be like that to be with them. And so, when we do that, we get a false sense of belonging, it’s not real belonging, it’s fitting in. Belonging, you have to be yourself.
Glennon Doyle:
You have to truly be accepted for who you are to have real belonging. So, fitting in is just as much self-abandonment as anything else. You’re still alone. It’s a fake version of you.
Amanda Doyle:
And you don’t get the benefit because you’re chasing that belonging. But what her research says is that you actually don’t even get the gratification of that belonging because you know that you’re not being your full self. So, that doesn’t count as being seen.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. So, it’s like a double whammy. Because if you didn’t try to fit in, at least you’d have yourself, at least you wouldn’t have abandoned yourself. But the fitting in is a double whammy because you’ve abandoned yourself and you’re still not getting the belonging.
Glennon Doyle:
So, it sounds like maybe Danielle tried to fit in and then probably she couldn’t fit in anymore. And so, she probably messed up the status quo of that group and got rejected. One way or another, whether that happened in big ways or small ways. So, now, she’s on her own again outside the pack.
Glennon Doyle:
And she looks at the pack and she still feels sad. She still feels the sting of left outness, even though she was in and now she’s not in for probably authenticity reasons. So, I do think that there’s different levels of left outness, and one of them is what we would’ve referred to in the Dr. Becky episodes as it’s growing pain.
Glennon Doyle:
Because looking back at that group and she knows she feels a sting, but she knows she doesn’t want to be back with them. So, it’s discomfort, but it’s true, good, growing pain discomfort because it’s not self-abandonment. For example, I feel left out sometimes now because I’ve made these decisions for my recovery to not do professional things, and so I look at my Instagram or my whatever.
Glennon Doyle:
And everybody who’s in my lane for the last year is doing all of these things all the time, and I’m never there and I’m never doing the things. They’re in important places and I know that I’m not supposed to be there. I know that I have made a decision that is best for me.
Glennon Doyle:
And that doesn’t change the fact that I look at those things and I feel like I’m becoming irrelevant and everyone’s going to forget about me, but it’s a different version because I know I’m not self-abandoning. So, I think that Danielle is feeling a version of growing pain.
Amanda Doyle:
That is such an important point you just raised. Because I think the more we talk about this as just a very natural consequence of experiencing a thing, it doesn’t get confused with, “Oh, no, I feel so shitty. That means I’m supposed to be in that group.”
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, no, I feel so shitty. That means that I’m missing out on a place where I should be.” It just means you feel so shitty because that is a natural consequence to any perception of you not belonging. They did these studies where the whole brain imaging stuff where it was a video game.
Amanda Doyle:
So, two bots on a video game and you’re the third bot. And you’re in the video game throwing the frisbee to each other among the three of you. Then, the scientists change the setting, so the other two bots only-
Abby Wambach:
Only pass through each other.
Amanda Doyle:
… throw the frisbee to each other.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my God, that would drive me crazy.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re in a freaking video game. You don’t even know who these people are. You don’t care about frisbee. And the brain’s reaction is the same as an interpersonal real-life situation of being left out. It is just a natural reaction. You’re now jealous of two bots throwing a pretend bot frisbee back and forth.
Amanda Doyle:
It doesn’t mean you’re supposed to be in that group. It doesn’t mean you’re supposed to be on that stage. It’s just a physiological reaction that is inside of you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It’s a little bit of heartbreak and that’s not a problem. That’s being human. Danielle is just experiencing being a human being who is made for love and connection, and sometimes looking at it and feeling like it’s not her day.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I just want to say, because we’re making up the story, what we think has happened with Danielle at work-
Glennon Doyle:
Nope, I know Danielle.
Abby Wambach:
But going along the lines of this story, Danielle, I think that one thing that I’ve learned with all the teams that I’ve been on, because there’s a lot of clicks and groups in every work environment in the world, and some of them you’re in on and some of them you’re out on.
Abby Wambach:
And I think that what I have found with the teams that I’ve been on in my life is if you just don’t abandon yourself, you will find someone that also doesn’t do that. They’re going to be the people that make you feel good about yourself, that don’t make you feel like you have to change or warp into something that isn’t true to you.
Abby Wambach:
So, this might also be an opportunity, I know it’s heartbreaking. I’m not trying to brightside this, but this could be a unique opportunity for you to look around and find maybe somebody that, I don’t know, you normally wouldn’t go sit and have lunch with or you normally don’t talk to on a regular basis. Strike up a conversation. And also, I’m so sorry and I really want to kick those bitches’ asses.
Amanda Doyle:
So, this is a good time to say that there are two responses to this isolation and one is aggression. And so, that is Abby’s response where it is, forget these people. I will see them in hell. The second one is the acclimation. So, where you’re like, “Okay, I will just make this work no matter what. I am going to just acclimate it.”
Amanda Doyle:
And that’s the one that Glennon said. I’m thinking about Danielle and what you’re saying, Abby, and there’s this strategy that the research suggests for kids that’s instead of a family tree, that when your kid is feeling some isolation to make a friend tree, whatever you see the most, which is why there’s always the school isolation or the work isolation for adults weighs so heavy.
Amanda Doyle:
Because if you’re only looking at that one group all the time, you feel like you don’t have any connection because that’s where you spend most of your time. But they said that kids should, and this is probably a good idea for adults too, is to make a friend tree, like your friends that you’ve had for a long time.
Amanda Doyle:
Your friends that might be in the neighborhood or even potential friends, people that you see on your walks, people in the neighborhood and people you’re interested in and just make the tree. And then, sit down and figure out, “Oh, well, there’s actually a lot of folks around not just this one branch of the tree that isn’t working for me right now.”
Amanda Doyle:
And how can I, instead of using my attention to perseverate on this one branch that is not sturdy right now. How can I invest in these other branches? Because really, the connection is what you need. You don’t need connection to those people on that branch. You just need to find your connection to-
Abby Wambach:
So good.
Amanda Doyle:
… someplace and more often not it’s there. We’re just not looking at that branch because it’s not the branch that is activating the pain center of our brain and at top of mind.
Abby Wambach:
Yup. Also, buy a chainsaw and lop off the branch of the mean girls.
Amanda Doyle:
And burn it in your witch fire.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what popularity, like everybody, we think we’re going to get over that in elementary school-
Abby Wambach:
We just don’t.
Glennon Doyle:
… but no. At every office and whatever, there’s a group that would be the equivalent of the popular group that just means power, those are the people that are wielding power in one way or another. And usually, the way people wield power in social situations is there’s somebody that gets to decide through the way they look, through what they say, who’s in and who’s out, that’s how to wield power.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s actually not real. The person who’s deciding, I have the power that you’re in or out, we can look at those people and just say, “No, thank you.” It’s like obsessing about the person that says the one mean thing because you want to change their mind.
Glennon Doyle:
So, then, you give all of yourself to the person that’s the least worthy of yourself, if there’s one person rejecting you in a spot. I think what you’re saying is so important. There’s probably 20 other people around that if you just turned your head, you know the Jesus thing that’s like-
Abby Wambach:
Nope.
Glennon Doyle:
… if somebody slaps you turn the cheek?
Abby Wambach:
Turn the other cheek?
Glennon Doyle:
Turn the other cheek. I always think about that in terms of when you turn your head, you’re looking at something else. It’s not necessarily turn the other cheek so they can slap you again. Jesus is like, “Turn the other cheek so you can see Barbara over there eating lunch by herself and instead of focusing on Tanya over there who keeps slapping you.”
Amanda Doyle:
Turn the other cheek and find yourself someone who’s not going to slap you.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. We don’t have to give people that power all the time like we did when we were in third grade.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
We can just say, actually there’s a million portals to connection and friendship. And you might be teasing me by opening and closing this little barn door that you have, but I don’t have to try to get in your barn door anymore because there’s a lot of other doors.
Abby Wambach:
I think that the idea too that we’re giving our worthiness to this group of mean girls.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
And it doesn’t make logical sense, but we still want it. It’s like the freaking moth to a flame.
Amanda Doyle:
And yet, it still feels that bad. So, when our kid comes home and says that that happened, it doesn’t help to be like, fuck those mean girls. And when Danielle has this happened, I mean it probably feels good to have Abby Wambach say, “Fuck those bitches.” But it just is that shitty, and there’s no fix to it. Oh, God, that sucks so bad.
Glennon Doyle:
When I feel really left out, I want a good friend or Abby or whoever to tell me all of those things. I want to hear that there’s other portals and that I don’t have to… but I also want to hear, fuck those mean girls. I like people who give me the whole kitten caboodle of responses.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like we need all of it. We need the mad, we need the, this isn’t about your worthiness, we need the everybody experiences this, this is just the shadow side of connection.
Abby Wambach:
This is all true. Because all of it is true. Every single piece of it is true.
Amanda Doyle:
As long as it’s not, screw them, forget it, they’re terrible, as if that dismisses the deep-
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, no.
Amanda Doyle:
… pain center of your brain, where it’s like they are not worth it. And also, this does feel that bad or worse. Or, worse yet, they are worth it because not all people that exclude you are mean girls. And not all people that exclude you are terrible.
Abby Wambach:
No, but sometimes you need somebody to have the strong part of your back when you’re experiencing this left outness and this loneliness. I got broken up with one time. And my mom, she heard me crying and she came into the room and said, she doesn’t deserve your tears.
Abby Wambach:
And this was a big deal for her to say It was about a girl. This was many years ago. And I needed my mom to be like, fuck that bitch. I needed her. She said it nicer, but I needed that. I needed somebody to solidify a little bit of some power back in me because you lose it and then somebody else can help and give it to you.
Glennon Doyle:
And then, that girl’s mom could have been somewhere going, “Honey, this isn’t meeting your needs. It’s the right thing to do.” But it doesn’t matter, it could be right for everybody. You just need your little crew to have all of the reactions for you so your parts can relax, because you’re like, “Oh, I’ve got it all covered. I’ve got my crazy mom. I’ve got my reasonable dad.” Whatever it is.
Abby Wambach:
It’s actually really helpful.
Amanda Doyle:
And the reason why that felt so good to you is what your mom was doing, replicated what she just did to you. Your mom saying, “Fuck that girl.” means she’s out.
Amanda Doyle:
She’s out of our circle. She’s done for us. And it’s like she kicked you out of your circle. Then, your mom kicks her out of y’all circle and now you’re like, “Even Steven, lady. You’re not welcome here.”
Abby Wambach:
Balancing the scales
Glennon Doyle:
You can’t leave me out. I left you out.
Amanda Doyle:
You can’t fire me. I don’t even work here.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, you all, I don’t know, it just comes back to the beautiful thing, doesn’t it? It’s like these things are and both and being made as a human being who so badly wants belonging and connections, there’s going to be moments of such beauty with that and there’s going to be moments that feel so cold.
Abby Wambach:
We’re not going to get it all the time. Sadly.
Amanda Doyle:
And it’s just universal. It happens every day and I don’t think you’ll ever arrive at a day where that doesn’t happen to you anymore. It’s not like a maturity level. Just like a couple days ago, I was invited to this place.
Amanda Doyle:
I felt so special to be invited and it was like seven women. And then, four of them rolled up in a car, all in the same car. At the same time, I rolled up by myself and another car, and I was like-
Abby Wambach:
Shit.
Amanda Doyle:
… “Ooh.”
Abby Wambach:
It just happens.
Amanda Doyle:
There’s no escaping it.
Abby Wambach:
I just got out of the shower just now and I thought Tish and Glennon were in the bedroom chitchatting. And I was like, “What are you guys talking about?” And I run in there and Tish goes, “Mom’s not even here.” And I was like, “Oh.” I felt left out for no reason. There was no left outness.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what I like about the pod squad. There’s so much room. Everybody can be here and nobody’s here. It’s like my ideal scenario.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. You have to click. You are choosing to be here and everybody’s invited.
Amanda Doyle:
You can sit with us after Danielle takes her seat. Danielle gets the first seat.
Glennon Doyle:
Danielle gets to sit. That’s right. Danielle sits wherever the house she wants. I would like for the pod squad with this topic to just talk to us. How do you deal with left outness?
Glennon Doyle:
What are you hearing in this that we’re missing? How do you talk to your kids about it? How do you decide when you get to include, exclude people? Just talk to us. I love this topic, 747-200-5307.
Abby Wambach:
I need to know some of your regrets in trying to handle some of your left outness for you or your children.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes, please help us. Just be selfless and tell us what you did so that we don’t have to walk the same lonely valley.
Abby Wambach:
Not because it’s funny. I just think that it’s important that we learn from each other of maybe some of the things of what not to do in these circumstances.
Amanda Doyle:
And best case if it’s funny.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, best case.
Glennon Doyle:
We love you Pod squad. You belong with us. We’ll see you next time. Bye.
Abby Wambach:
Bye.
Glennon Doyle:
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you’d be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you’ll never miss an episode and it helps us because you’ll never miss an episode.
Glennon Doyle:
To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod.
Glennon Doyle:
While you’re there, if you’d be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 Studios.