Calling All Control Freaks: How to Stop Overfunctioning
May 18, 2023
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome to-
Abby Wambach:
Welcome to-
Glennon Doyle:
Hi, everybody. We are back. Thanks for spending your time with us. Today is a tripod, just the three of us. And we are discussing all of your questions that just give us so much to think about. I’m going to surprise the two of you, and we are actually going to start with some rapid fire questions.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, this is fun. Also, I just feel like a little saucy today.
Glennon Doyle:
You do?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I just feel it. I feel like I want to interrupt you a lot.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, God.
Abby Wambach:
And I don’t know what that is.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s this energy that comes into Abby, where she… In the beginning of our relationship, when she got like this, she would do this thing that they used to do on their soccer team, I guess, where they’d be walking next to their friend, and she would stick out her foot-
Abby Wambach:
Behind.
Glennon Doyle:
…and try. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Walking behind your friend.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. She’d be walking behind me, and she would try to trip me, while we were in our romantic period. And I was like, “What is happening?” That’s something that’s never happened to me while I was dating. Men never tried to trip me while we were walking.
Abby Wambach:
I know.
Amanda Doyle:
And they just did it metaphorically.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Ah, yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Figuratively.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
She just did it literally.
Abby Wambach:
I did it one time.
Glennon Doyle:
And then, what happened?
Abby Wambach:
And then, she looked at me this way. That scared me.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, you like to play. And we have had some moments recently, where just-
Abby Wambach:
Sister, the other day-
Amanda Doyle:
Is it a thing where you knee… I do it to my kids all the time. It’s so fun. Where you, while they’re walking, you knee them right in the knee so their legs buckle?
Abby Wambach:
No, it’s different.
Amanda Doyle:
Is that what it was?
Glennon Doyle:
But that’s great, sister. What the hell? What?
Abby Wambach:
No, it’s different because you just-
Amanda Doyle:
Because it’s fun.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. You swoop their leg, you kick their one foot into the other, so they literally, they trip themselves. It’s hilarious.
Glennon Doyle:
I want you to know that I truly, at a deep level, don’t understand why anyone would want to do that to someone they love.
Abby Wambach:
Well, I mean, for instance, the other day I was playing with her. I’m trying to-
Amanda Doyle:
No, you were playing at her.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
You never played with her.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Abby Wambach:
So have you ever-
Amanda Doyle:
You parallel play.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Have you ever been a little kid, and your brother is holding your hand, and-
Amanda Doyle:
No. I could stop right there. I’ve never been a little kid, and my brother did anything.
Abby Wambach:
Okay. So her cousin-
Glennon Doyle:
I was also never a little kid.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my gosh.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ve been forty since the minute I was born. I was an old soul, which obviously just means you didn’t have enough serotonin.
Abby Wambach:
Okay. So somebody is holding your own hand, and they’re forcing you to slap your own face. Just real light, real fun.
Glennon Doyle:
You hit yourself, you hit yourself.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. So Glenn and I, was having a little play session, evidently, at Glennon, and I was just lightly tapping her face with her own hand. I was manipulating her hand that way, and she just let go, and she just hit me with her hand. I was like, “No.”
Glennon Doyle:
I said, “You hit yourself,” and then I slapped her in the face. She goes, “Why don’t you know how to play?”
Amanda Doyle:
Well, we didn’t. It’s an underdeveloped skill for us.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, gosh.
Glennon Doyle:
I slapped her. I was like, “Wait.” I looked at her face. I’m like, “Wait, that doesn’t feel like what we were just doing.”
Abby Wambach:
She escalated.
Glennon Doyle:
You looked at me with scorn.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, well…
Glennon Doyle:
Are you ready to play? This is my idea of playing.
Abby Wambach:
This is playing with words.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my gosh.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. Are you two ready?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, all right.
Glennon Doyle:
I can’t wait to see our version of rapid, because it’s probably going to be like molasses.
Amanda Doyle:
This is definitely a real rapid, because I haven’t seen these, to which I object.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Rapid means fast. It doesn’t mean-
Amanda Doyle:
I know, but in order to go fast, you have to have some advanced planning?
Glennon Doyle:
No. That’s what we think. But we’re going to try a different way, sissy. We’re going to see how you do when you don’t know what the hell’s going on.
Abby Wambach:
That’s funny.
Amanda Doyle:
All right.
Glennon Doyle:
Where you haven’t researched the origins of each of these questions.
Abby Wambach:
In order to go-
Amanda Doyle:
I’m going to stretch.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, that’s so funny, the rapid fire. In order to go fast, don’t you have to know the questions?
Glennon Doyle:
Also, I took a screenshot. Okay, so we posted on Instagram, our toothbrush saga.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It was my toothbrush, which is disgusting. Abby’s toothbrush was just so clean that it looks like a serial killer. And somebody said, “I need a third option. I need to know what sister’s toothbrush looks like.” And somebody else commented back, and said, “Sister’s toothbrush comes with a spreadsheet.”
Abby Wambach:
Awesome.
Glennon Doyle:
Sister and Abby. First sister, then Abby.
Abby Wambach:
Okay, good.
Glennon Doyle:
What’s the one emotion hardest for you to carry?
Amanda Doyle:
Fear.
Abby Wambach:
I would say sadness, for the reals, but on a topical level, frustration.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Is that an emotion?
Glennon Doyle:
Frus- I don’t know. Is frustration an emotion?
Amanda Doyle:
If it’s an emotion for you, it’s an emotion.
Abby Wambach:
“Oh, I feel so frustrated.” I hate that feeling.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, when Tish was little, she used to sit in time-out, where she lived. I know we don’t do that anymore, but we were doing it when our kids were little.
Abby Wambach:
She turned out good.
Glennon Doyle:
And she used to scream, “Mommy, I so frustrating.”
Amanda Doyle:
And you were like-
Abby Wambach:
Yes, you are.
Amanda Doyle:
Indeed, you are so frustrating.
Glennon Doyle:
There’s one thing we agree on, honey. What’s the one emotion that’s hardest for you to receive in others? This is so rapid.
Amanda Doyle:
I know what it is. I’m having trouble describing it.
Glennon Doyle:
Just describe it. You don’t have to say it in a word.
Amanda Doyle:
Softness?
Glennon Doyle:
Like what you would perceive as weakness?
Amanda Doyle:
No, because I know intellectually it’s not weak.
Glennon Doyle:
Is it tenderness?
Abby Wambach:
Is it vulnerability?
Amanda Doyle:
If you come at me hard, I know how to come back at you. If you come at me soft, I’m like, “Ah…”
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So if someone has a problem with you, or they have something going on that they want to talk to you about, if they come at you like, “Fuck you,” you’re okay. But if they come at you, “My feelings are hurt, and I don’t know what to do about it,” that’s hard for you?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. I would like to amend.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
The first hardest thing to come at me is some kind of pity, or concern, or the acknowledgement that I need any help, is the first hardest one. And then softness, just generally, is hard. So if John wants to address something in a soft way, I just have to recalibrate very quickly, and try to get there.
Glennon Doyle:
Example. Example. What’s something John would want to come at in a soft way, and you have to recycle? Recalibrate.
Amanda Doyle:
If he’s like, “I’m worried about how you’re doing with X.”
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
And then I am like, “Okay, now you want to talk about it?” Because I have to keep doing X, so then I have to stop doing X, and then talk about how I feel about doing X? It just feels like it’s such an extracurricular of…
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, this is so interesting. And also, can we just dig in here a little bit?
Abby Wambach:
Sure.
Glennon Doyle:
This is such a rapid fire.
Abby Wambach:
We’re going to just call it fire questions.
Glennon Doyle:
I think this is a bit of a universal thing. We’ve talked about overfunctioners, right? Overfunction, that’s a thing. A lot of people are overfunctioners, meaning control freak. What are some other words for overfunctioners? The person who is the center of the organization, or family, or whatever, that has to do-
Amanda Doyle:
The accountability holder.
Glennon Doyle:
The accountability holder. Okay. Okay, that’s good. For all the accountability holders who are listening, who are juggling jugglings, keeping all the plates spinning. And then the people on the outside, are like, “Uh, I feel like they’re freaking out, but I don’t know how to approach or help.” What would be good for John to say? Let’s say we’re talking about John, and just John.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay, so for this morning, that happened. Actually, I’m very stressed out. I have a thousand things going on today, and need to be done in a very compressed period of time.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
First of all, I think it’s nice to set the table with it. I have learned this. Today, he was talking to me this morning, and I said, “I’m to be very anxious today. I have to be incredibly efficient today, so I want you to know that while you’re talking to me, I’m going to be walking around, I’m listening to you. But this is a day I need to be incredibly efficient, and so that’s what you can expect.” And he was like, “Got it.”
Glennon Doyle:
That’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
And then I was sitting down to something, and he said, “What can I do for you today to help?” And had this been a year ago, I would’ve been like, “Nothing. It’s fine, I got it, and just.”
Glennon Doyle:
Why don’t you know?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. And I just said, “These five things would be really helpful,” And he’s like, “Got it.” And so we are doing really well in that department. So I think even just a year ago, he would’ve been like, “She’s pissed at me for some unknown reason, and the last thing that I’m going to do is ask her about it, or acknowledge it, because I don’t know what it is, and she probably doesn’t know what it is, but she’s just generally walking around in a pissy way,” that we never would’ve gotten to the acknowledgement of, “This isn’t about you, this is about me being really anxious.” And also, we wouldn’t have gotten to the point where he’s like, “Okay, well what can I do, to take off your plate today, to help you with that?”
Abby Wambach:
Damn.
Amanda Doyle:
And then I never would’ve gotten to the third step, of being like, “Actually, can you get this from the attic? Can you make sure this is done in the house? Can you make that call to the doctor?” And I wouldn’t have trusted that then he’d actually do those things.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
And so I feel like over the last year, we’ve made a lot of progress in that way. But I think that’s the thing. So that, versus being like, “You’re so stressed out. What’s going on? What are we going to do about you being so stressed out?” That doesn’t help me, because I don’t need another job, which is to talk about this complex, troubling situation that I’m just stressed out. I just need to get through the thing I’m stressed out about, and I could use a little help with that.
Abby Wambach:
Yup.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
Tangible, concrete help.
Abby Wambach:
One of the things that’s so fascinating to me, about this experiment that you’re going through right now, is the self-awareness that you had to have, and the responsibility that you had to take on for your anxiety.
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Abby Wambach:
Because maybe a year ago, you would’ve just been like, “I got to do this all on my own.” But you were still enough, and conscious, and aware enough, to be like, “I’m going to be fucking on one today, and so I need to let him know that I’m going to be on one,” and it empowered him to come to you. That then empowered you to start trusting him with withholding some of that. That’s a miracle to me.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, and makes him understand, “Oh, God, this isn’t about me the whole time.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
“This isn’t about me, and we can be on the same team.”
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
So.
Abby Wambach:
Good job.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you think that there’s a type of person… Are overfunctioners just the person that everybody defaults to give them their shit, because they feel like they can’t do it or whatever? Or, is the overfunctioner personality type only comfortable when they have all of the things?
Amanda Doyle:
Both of those. I think it’s a cyclical situation. I think the whatever reason overfunctioners have, nature or nurture, has figured out a way where they view the world as, if it’s within their site line, that they have some level of accountability to ensure that it goes right. And that can be a blessing and a curse. I think it’s a blessing and a curse, right? Because I think one of the greatest things that you can have in life is this sense of tremendous self-efficacy.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Where it’s like I can impact everything around me. I can take care of things. I am not scared of handling things. I believe in myself to get it done. That’s a great thing. But then it can over-index to the point where you’re like, “Because I believe that, there’s nothing that can happen around me that I don’t feel a role in making sure it goes well, and making sure it’s done.” But I think that what happens is overfunctioners step into a place, I know in my relationship, the impact on John has been, “Why would I bother?”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Because every time I start to do something, you swoop in and decide what’s wrong with it, and make it different. So I’m just not trying anymore. This was something that we struggled with a lot. And so then that person, who would otherwise be doing things is, like, “Absolutely fuck it,” and they don’t do it anymore.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That’s true.
Amanda Doyle:
And so then you have even more to do, and then you get bitter and resentful, because you’re like, “Why aren’t people doing things?” But it’s because you would swoop in, and redo it, or undo it, or criticize the way it was being done. So then the person who’s the underfunctioner maybe didn’t start that way, but they sure as shit didn’t start as an overfunctioner.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm. That’s so interesting.
Glennon Doyle:
So what happens, then? Does the overfunctioner have to begin to accept the price of having everything done, as well as, “I can do that. Do it,” is becoming so high on my own self, and this relationship, where the other person feels frozen, to try. That now the goal is not going to be an A+ anymore, but it’s going to be like a B+, or an A-, with things that need to get done? That will kill me, because I’m an A+ person, but it will kill me less than the A+ life is.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m trying to rethink that a little bit, because when it all comes down to it, there’s a little bit of hubris, a little bit of fatal pride, in even that model of looking at it, which I’m a strong advocate of that belief system. But I’m trying to adjust it, because I realized, recently, in our relationship, we were doing something with respect to the way that my son was behaving. And I came to a realization about it, that we were not guiding him the way that he should be guided, that there needed to be a shift in the way that we were dealing with him, in a way that it was impacting him and his relationship.
Amanda Doyle:
So we were letting certain things go, and this is a whole complicated situation because of his brain structure. It’s very hard to know how much to really crack down, and hold the line, and how much you need to accommodate the way that he was made. And so that’s been a tricky line for us the whole time. And I came, and sat down with John, and I was like, “Oh, my God, we’ve been doing this wrong. I just came to this realization and we cannot be letting these things slide. We need to stop this, because there’s a difference between having the freedom of all of these emotions to feel, versus the freedom to act in any way you want. And we have got to help him define the line between feeling and acting.” And he said, “Oh, yeah, I’ve known that for a long time.”
Glennon Doyle:
Didn’t he listen to our Q&A, where you’re not supposed to say it after?
Amanda Doyle:
He did not. He did not. And it is impossible to overstate my emotional reaction to that, because I was so enraged, and felt so betrayed, because I felt like, “Oh my God, I might be fucking up all of this, but I am at least showing up with what I believe is right, with all of my heart and my might.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
“In trying to do what is right, that I might find out, later, is wrong, but I sure as shit am not doing what I know is wrong, because I’m too afraid to acknowledge it, or bring it up.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And I was so pissed, because it just felt like it was like,
Glennon Doyle:
You’re alone, how alone.
Amanda Doyle:
Not only alone, but you’re sitting over here knowing we’re fucked up, and you’re going along with it? And you’re guiding our children the wrong way, even though it’s wrong?
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
It felt so upsetting. And we came to this place of a new understanding, where I realized that my overfunctioning, my strong strong-willedness, my, “I know what’s right, and what’s an A+, and we’re doing it my way,” frame of looking at our family in the world actually led us there. Because he was like, “Yeah, I’ve known that it’s wrong. And also, I trust you, and you have great ideas, and you seemed to think this was right. And also, this is what ends up happening anyway, is what you think is right, because you think my shit is B+.”
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, when he said, “I know,” he meant, “Yeah, I’ve had that hunch. My opinion is that we have been doing it wrong, but just my pattern is to default to your opinion, because I have trained myself to trust you even more than myself.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so what I realized is that, first of all, it was really helpful for the anti-gaslighting. Because it was like when I felt like it was just me at the helm, that’s because it was just me at the helm.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And we had this conversation, where it was so helpful to hear him say that, because it went from a betrayal of him to me, and him to our kids, to being the betrayal of the way that we had set up the leadership of our family to our family.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And I had to be like, “I actually do need every one of your ideas, and every bit of your wisdom. Whether it looks like pushback, or whether it looks like contribution, we need that, because I am not always right. And I’m a always think I’m right, but I am not always right. And so I need you to come in and be like, “No, not okay. This is what we’re doing,” and I’ll push back as much as I… Because I know myself, and I’m going to push back on that. And then we need to end up in a place that has the benefit of both of our wisdom, because what I’ve been assuming was an A+ is not.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
And it was freeing for me, because I’m not steering the ship on my own, and it’s freeing for him because he’s like, “I am responsible for steering this ship.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And so he, expressing that to me, I was like, “I need you at the helm of this with me.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
“I’m not asking you to do the job by standing down, and being a crewmate. You are a captain. You need to do this.”
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
And so all of that’s a really long way of saying, “I am not looking at it as the A+, B- anymore. I’m looking at it like no one has all the answers. And you need the benefit of the full wisdom to get there, and then you need to empower people to feel like their wisdom matters, because it actually does.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
Damn, sissy.
Abby Wambach:
Good job.
Glennon Doyle:
Holy crap. Okay, first of all, did he have the same realizations as you? I remember, in my first marriage, because I had a situation a little bit like this. I felt like I was the only one. I remember saying, “I’m going to run this ship into the ground if nobody says anything. I don’t know what I’m doing. I know if I make a decision, we’re going that way fast. Which makes it even more important for people who are high functions, lots of agency, lots of leadership, to have a strong person on the other side. So after that conversation, was he tracking with all of those realizations that you just had? Would he-
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Would he? Okay. And is it-
Amanda Doyle:
At first, he did not understand the betrayal part of it.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
And so we got to the place where he is like, “I get it.” And then I think it was deeply moving to him, to be like, “I need you.” There’s a level of overfunctioning that’s like “Who’s going to pick up the kids?” And, “Who’s going to make sure we have dog food?” And then there’s a level of overfunctioning that, like you said, running the ship into the ground.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s where that deep loneliness, and, I think, deepest level of resentment, comes from because you’re like, “I can’t handle, and don’t want, to be in charge of all of this. I need to know that I am not in charge, and I need to know that I can tap out, and I need to know that you are leading just as much as I am leading.” And I think, in many ways, he was really eager and ready to stand, and be like, “Put me in, Coach.”
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
“I’m here.”
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
And he has been, and he’s been doing it, and I have been checking myself. When it isn’t a decision I would make, I have to be like, “Well, maybe that’s something I haven’t thought of.”
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
“Maybe that’s a new way.” We have two children, we have completely different personalities in people. There isn’t a script that we’re trying to follow here. What we’re trying to do is raise two people with two people who are thoughtful.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And because parenting, or marriage, or whatever, is about the combination of two full human beings, who are expressing themselves completely. If you’re paint and he’s paint, your life is whatever color those two paints make together when they’re both pouring themselves on the page. It’s not about right or wrong decisions.
Amanda Doyle:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
Sometimes it’s just about seeing the color of both of you. So cool.
Abby Wambach:
I also think that in marriage, the way that I think about the way we operate, is Glennon has extraordinary strengths, and so do I. And I am so grateful for her strengths, and you’re grateful for mine, but they’re just so different.
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Abby Wambach:
And so each kid is going to require a different circumstance, and a different set of decisions to be made, on the daily. You’ll get completely tapped out if you have to be the one that’s making all the decisions. And I also think it’s important, for those listening, is to encourage whatever the strengths you see in your partner, embody them, and pump them up. Be the freaking motivational, “Hey, you know what you’re so good at? Is this, and I appreciate this so much, and I want you to hold this for us.” And that will, I mean, literally, his brain will blow up.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
I think that that’s so cool.
Amanda Doyle:
I also think there’s this fantasy that we live in, where we are trying so desperately to make things be okay for our families, that we’re like, “If I just stay vigilant, if I just do the thing, if I just keep everyone on the same page, and I figure out what that page should be, and we do it, then things will be okay.” And partnership is the hardest shit that I’ve ever done. And I think what often happens, at least if you’re partnered with someone like me, or if you are someone like me, is that people might be following the page, but it’s like you driving it, and then it’s a ghost of a person following the page.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And what you really don’t want, or need, in your life is a ghost of a person. That doesn’t go well for any damn body.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-mm.
Amanda Doyle:
And so if you try the other way, maybe there’s some shit you wouldn’t have written on the page. Maybe there’s some stuff you think is actually wrong. But then you have a non-ghost, you have a full ass person-
Glennon Doyle:
And you’re not alone.
Amanda Doyle:
…with all their experiences, with all their wisdom. You picked them. You picked them for a lot of reasons. Then you’re like, “Here’s the person I picked. Please leave all of your experience, and all of your insights, and all of everything, at the door, and jump on my script.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Why? You’re losing the full experience of that person.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
And you have to be humble enough that you don’t know all the answers. And also, that you need wisdom outside of yourself, if only because you are going to be bitter, and strung out, and afraid. I realized how afraid I was, and in that moment with that, what I thought of as a betrayal, I realized, “No wonder I’m afraid. Because when I feel like I’m truly the only one leading this family, it’s because I have set up this family so that I am the one leading this family.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And that serves no one. And I feel less afraid right now.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
I feel like I’m like, “Everybody’s on. Everybody’s focused. Everybody’s doing the best they can. And are we going to make mistakes? Yeah. But also, we were making mistakes before, when I was dictating-
Glennon Doyle:
And everyone was scared, and you were alone.
Amanda Doyle:
And I was scaredest of all.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
I was scaredest of everyone.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Because I knew, at a deep level, that it was me, and I know at a deep level that I don’t know everything.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And to all, like you, and everyone, who you give yourself grace for this pattern. Because I think what happens is people who have this personality, whatever we’re calling overfunctioners today, know that that’s what they have. So people who, like that, tend to be drawn to a partner who maybe is more relaxed, or maybe has a different set of way of being in the world that offers a little more chill. And that’s what you yearn for. And so you match yourself to that person, because of that thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Because some subconscious part of you thinks they’re going to add ease, they’re going to add relaxing, they’re going to add this part. And then, of course, we know what happens when the love drug wears off, what’s left is that thing that you fell in love with drives you batshit crazy, and scares the shit out of you. Because your narrative about yourself, that you’re the only one that can lead, that you’re the only one that can be dependent on, that you… And then you see the other person’s ease as not caring, as laziness, and then you forget that’s what you wanted in your life.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. And I think, in some cases, people are genuinely partnered with people who are passive and don’t give a shit.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And I think in many cases, people are partnered with people who appear to be passive, and don’t give a shit, because those people are smart, and have read the room, and know that what is happening is what the overfunctioner determines is going to happen. And so they polarize into this side, where it’s like, “Well, just got to sit tight and support the script.” But when they are invited, when you say to them, “I need you.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
“I need you to be leading. I need the benefit of-“
Glennon Doyle:
All of you.
Amanda Doyle:
“…you, in your full glory. Not just supporting what I think, but bringing what you think, and pushing back on me when what I think is wrong in your opinion.” Then they’re like, “Holy shit, great,” and then they step up in a way that you’ve been wanting them to step up the whole time, and wondering why they weren’t.
Glennon Doyle:
So let’s say that in the overfunctioner, who’s trying to undo this vicious pattern, the other partner steps up, and does something. And let’s say it’s like, I don’t know, something where there’s mistakes in it.
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Glennon Doyle:
Say it’s-
Abby Wambach:
They plan a birthday party.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, they plan a birthday party, and it’s like… Sucks to you.
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, that’s a bridge too far. Okay, let’s make it clear.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, they send an email.
Amanda Doyle:
Nobody who’s not an overfunctioner is planning a fucking birthday party.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So they send an email. They send an email.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes, they send an email.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
I’ll give you that.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. And this email is like, “Whoa,” there’s like three typos. It’s got some crap in it. It’s like you’re looking at it because, of course, you’ve asked to be CC’d, and you’re like, “This does not represent,” because that’s still going to come up, right? Overfunction, like, “This does not represent my A+ family.” So what does one do? Does one, during this exercise of letting go, and whatever, does the overfunctioner try very, very hard to let that go because it’s the price of correcting it and shaming it is higher than the price of allowing a B+ email to go out into the world?
Amanda Doyle:
I will say two things.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
My suggestion to the overfunctioner is that you come to a mutual understanding with your partner about what the end result will be. The end result is that we get this kid enrolled in this class. The end result is that the kid gets a ride home from baseball practice. Okay? And then you don’t want to be CC’d on that email. You don’t want to see how the sausage is made. You want to say, “Deliver me the sausage.”
Glennon Doyle:
That’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
And then you just let it go. But, if you don’t agree on the final outcome, then saying, “Make plans for the weekend.” That’s too much. That’s too much. We need to say-
Glennon Doyle:
Baby steps.
Amanda Doyle:
“We’re going to make plans to get home from baseball.”
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
Great. You got that? That’s clearly in your bucket. No ambiguity. No ambiguity. That is you, and not me. Then you just have to let go. I will say that you have to, again, let go of the hubris, and imagine that there is something that is outside of the way that you’re thinking that is possible in the way that your other person is thinking.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
So we had a whole thing go down, where, God bless Johnny Lynch, he was very concerned about the safety of the bus stops, of where our kids were being picked up on the bus stop. And there were no sidewalks, and it’s a very busy street, and he was like, “I am dealing with this.” And I was like, “Oh, God. Oh, so nervous. We’re talking about principals, we’re talking about really high up people in our school system. I am so afraid. We’re using all of our family equity.”
Glennon Doyle:
And the overfunctioner thinks, “We need to put our best foot forward here with these people-“
Amanda Doyle:
Oh my God, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
“Which is me.”
Amanda Doyle:
No, this is big stakes. In my little world, these are big fixes.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
He didn’t talk to me about it. He didn’t ask me. All of a sudden emails are flying. All of a sudden… And I was just like, “I have to swallow very deeply. This is his thing. He has decided this is his thing. And he is the parent of these kids, and God bless him.” And wouldn’t you know, that three days later, he has a full on solution, that every day, when we go to the bus stop, I’m like, “God damn, I would not have gotten this for our family.”
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
And the kid’s safety was the issue.
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
So it just, that was open to interpretation, obviously, but his interpretation was strong.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And I just had to let go. If I would’ve done my overfunctioning thing, where I’d been like, “No, no, no, no. This is what we’re going to do. That’s not important. Here’s what’s important.” A, it would’ve stifled his thing, where he knew that was something that was important to him for our family, and B, the outcome wouldn’t have outcame,
Glennon Doyle:
Wouldn’t have outcame.
Amanda Doyle:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you feel like all of this way, in all of your situations, do you feel this way at work? Because you and I are running a family, you know what I mean? You and I are in a similar situation to you and John.
Amanda Doyle:
I feel like, in our little team, the folks that we have on our team are so accountable, and so trustworthy. I used to feel like that, before Dynna and Allison were with us, because it just felt like, “Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Any ball could drop, and I have to be searching the skies for the balls at all times, and making sure they’re not falling, and I’m so stressed out, and I can’t sleep.” I know that the two of them are so more than accountable, and capable, and devoted to their universe of balls, and they take care of them completely. And I don’t even think about it.
Amanda Doyle:
I do think that it is something that pervades every aspect of my life though. It is such a blessing, and such a curse, because the problem with me is I think that everything and everyone is my business. And the gift of me is that I think everyone and everything is my business. So that can be obnoxious to other people, and it can be obnoxious to yourself, when you are taking on the emotional regulation of everyone within a mile vicinity of you.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
And it can be a huge blessing, because you’re seeing things out in the world that are little things, that you can just connect with people, and help people out, and be part of the world that you’re living in. So I think it has to be seen as a really positive thing, too. I think it’s really good in a lot of ways.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Abby Wambach:
What are some things that we could do because we’re in a mile of that orbit for you? What are some things that we can do, like John, to be able to share the responsibility with you, to make you feel like we’ve got this with you, to make you less scared and afraid?
Glennon Doyle:
Or do you feel like you have leaders?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, totally. Totally. That happens all the time. Like recently, when we were planning for my parents’ 50th, and I wrote to one of you, and was like, “Can you handle this itinerary?” And Glenn, you wrote back, and you were like, “I think we should do X, Y, and Z.” And I’m like, “No, that’s not what I was asking.” I wasn’t asking for your feedback so that I could plan the itinerary. I was asking, “Could you take this ball and carry it?”
Amanda Doyle:
And so it took a lot for me to be like, “Nope, I’m not asking for you to give your edits, and give me back the ball. I’m asking you to take this ball so I don’t need to think about it.” And then you guys took it, and did the whole thing, and it was such a huge, amazing relief, and it was beautiful. And so I think that it’s getting to the place where you’re like, “I don’t need to control, and monitor, and quality control this thing. I just need to know what is mine to do, and what is someone else’s to do.”
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
And then if you can actually give, and ask people to do things, and then not control it in the process, then that’s what everyone needs. Because no one wants to be responsible for things, but not accountable for them.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
Let me do you.
Amanda Doyle:
They want to know if it’s theirs or not.
Abby Wambach:
Can I just tell you, I walked on air that day that you asked us to take on-
Glennon Doyle:
No, she was so excited.
Abby Wambach:
…that responsibility. I was like, “Sister called me in. This is so exciting.” Because here’s the thing, and I’m sure John can relate. When you have somebody in your life that is so good at what they do, in so many ways, when they ask you for help, that is such a sign of trust. “Hey, can you do this thing?” I felt like we got closer. I don’t know. I really did, and it really touched me. So I was working really hard, and I was doing the photos, and I was like, “I’m doing this.” And I know that some of my emails are not A+.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, Q.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
Using this as an example, for all the Pod Squaddy people who are trying to work this vibe out in their lives or their work. So you asked Abby to do it. Does the overfunctioner still want to get in there at the end, and make sure everything’s good? Because you’re still doing that, right? You’re still sending the email-
Amanda Doyle:
No, no, no. What I’m talking about is the trip. When I was talking about that, I was talking about the trip.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, okay.
Amanda Doyle:
Remember the trip that they’re going on?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Amanda Doyle:
And I was like, “Can you take their itinerary for that?” And that’s when you were back, and were like, “I think this should be the plan,” and I’m like, “Great. Can you do it?”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
But for that, what we’re doing right now, that I just want to contribute and be like, “What are the last minute things? Are we buttoned up on this?”
Glennon Doyle:
Because what I would say about, that from the other perspective, so what we’re saying is, “Plan the party. Abby planned the party. Sister, still all the…” Everybody’s contributing, but Abby’s been doing all the emails. But then at the end, sister’s still stepping in, lists of things. “Have we thought of this, this, this, this,” some of which we hadn’t thought of. We’ll make the party better, but it’s still, on our end, and probably not you. I was probably like, “Oh, God. Are we not doing what we’re supposed to be doing?” A few of the things that you listed in the email probably will make the party better, but probably would’ve been okay if they weren’t there.
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Glennon Doyle:
So the question is, “Will it be a new era, when you’re like, ‘Okay, we’re going to just… They took it, and I’m going to see how it goes.’?”
Amanda Doyle:
It’s interesting. I think there’s two things happening there. One is the like PTSD of being in relationship with an overfunctioner, like you’re saying. You’re like, “So is the fact that she’s writing this email right now suggests that we were not doing something or fucking something up?”
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
So that’s a whole phenomenon that I get, and that’s certainly, probably, very alive in a lot of relationships. But when I feel like everyone is sharing a load so well, that’s the beauty of the shared load. That’s what makes things magic, is at the end, these… Because I guarantee, if I had been doing that whole thing, I wouldn’t have thought of those little things at the end, that are going to make it better. So I don’t think it’s like, “Now I can’t touch this thing.” It’s like, “That’s the sprinkles, that are possible with capacity, when everyone is carrying it in a way that is impossible.”
Amanda Doyle:
Sometimes, when we’re doing something for work, and Allison will have worked 10 hours on something. And then I’ll work an hour on it, to massage it, and then we take it to you, and you’re like, “Oh, what about this?” And sometimes it’s like, “God damn it, we’ve been looking at that for 12 hours.” But then it’s like, “No, it took this process.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Mm.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like we had to get from A to B, to make C possible. And so I think that there’s something about that, that’s like, that is all necessary, and good, to get to the place where you’re like, “That’s where the magic happens.”
Glennon Doyle:
So you weren’t like, “Damn it, these things aren’t done.”
Amanda Doyle:
No. My God, no.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
I was like, “I am here. I haven’t done any of this stuff. I want to make sure I’m contributing, to help out with these last minute things.” And in the process, thought of these other little things, and added them in.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
There was zero part of that that was an angsty, resentful thing. It was like a gratitude.
Glennon Doyle:
So as you’re working on this with John, our team, the three of us with our parents, what is the dream for the overfunctioner in relationship and in leadership? What does whatever you’re working towards look like? For the part that you can control, I guess.
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm. The total dream, and what I think John and I are working towards, and what I feel now, that I didn’t feel before, is which the reason I didn’t feel before was partly of my own creation, is that I am not alone. And that I have the benefit of wisdom, and perspective, and judgment, that is outside of my wisdom, and perspective, and judgment. And that I have confidence, and trust, in whether I am unable to, or dare I say, unsuitable to a certain thing, that it will be done in a way that’s in the best interests of our team.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
And that’s what peace is to me. It’s like you can sleep because someone else is carrying the sky with you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
I remember, so in my first marriage, I was really confused about money, and I think I still am working out a lot of that stuff, but I kept, throughout our marriage, giving away all of our money. We didn’t even have a lot of money. I was a teacher. But I don’t know if I had shame, or I don’t know what it was. But three times-
Amanda Doyle:
I remember that. There was that orphanage in-
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I gave all my money-
Amanda Doyle:
Central America, where you gave literally all your money.
Glennon Doyle:
All of our money. Our entire bank account. Because I found out that they were going to shut down, or something. I don’t know. And bless Craig’s heart, he came home, and I was like, “This is what we’re supposed to do.” And PS, back then, I was an evangelical Christian, accidentally. So it’s just different language. So you-
Amanda Doyle:
Bad news, got a message from the G-O-D.
Glennon Doyle:
From God, right?
Amanda Doyle:
Say goodbye to your bank account.
Glennon Doyle:
How are you going to argue with that? That’s the language I used. I feel called to do this. I feel… Like what are we? And then I started a preschool in my basement, and I used all of our money. Every… We’d just saved up again, to-
Amanda Doyle:
But luckily, the preschool was so lucrative, that it worked out in the end.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Because I promised Craig that we would have students who would pay, but then I didn’t charge anyone. Anyway. I’m not proud of it. I’m actually really not. I feel like I was confused. I was having shame about money, whatever. So I just kept emptying, and giving it all away. When Abby and I, like a year into our relationship, we were having some kind of money talk, and I brought up this. And she looked at me and she goes, “I just want you to know that will never happen again. You will never give away all of our money again.” And I looked at her like someone had saved me.
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Glennon Doyle:
Someone had saved me from myself.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t know why I keep thinking of this moment when you’re talking, but I felt like, “Yes, thank you. I am not good at this. I have… And people just letting me sink this ship left and right.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. If I keep being, I will burn this ship to the ground.
Glennon Doyle:
I will burn this ship to the ground.
Amanda Doyle:
That is what I mean, sister. This is what John and I have talked about so much, is that the people who are the overfunctioners are often labeled as the control freaks, and the people who can’t let go. And what, on behalf of overfunctioners everywhere, what I want to say is, what we desperately want more than anything is to acquiesce control.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
To not be in charge of everything. And whether it’s from our own lived experience, or whether it’s from the circumstances of the relationships that we have chosen, or whether it’s from the polarization that we have enforced on our partners, because we have been so overfunctioning, that has forced them to the passive end of the spectrum. We genuinely feel like we cannot give up control. We genuinely feel like love looks like continuing to hold up the sky, with exactly the same vigor that we always have done.
Amanda Doyle:
And what feels like the greatest offering you could give someone, is to say, “I am here. You are with me. You are not alone. And I am here watching over every step of this with you, and I am not going to let you make mistakes. I am not going to let you be in charge of this whole thing.”
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s what we want to hear. “I am not going to let you control this thing forever.”
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
Because what we want is someone who will be accountable for it with us.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s what we want. Even though it looks like that’s the last God damn thing we want.
Glennon Doyle:
And the person has to say, “Accountability is going to look different.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Your idea of accountability is not necessarily our idea of accountability. So whereas you might say, “I’m going to be on fire today. I’m going to be whatever,” the other person might say, “I’m going to make mistakes, and I’m going to do this my way, and we’re going to get to our goal, but it might look different than the way that you would do it, and you’re just going to have to be okay with that.”
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, my God. Pod Squad, just so you know, that was question 2 of our rapid fire.
Amanda Doyle:
That was our rapid fire.
Glennon Doyle:
Which was only supposed to be the five-minute introduction to the Pod Squad questions that we were going to get to today.
Amanda Doyle:
You should have told me the questions in advance. I would’ve done a rapid fire.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m so grateful.
Amanda Doyle:
The longest rapid fire, ever.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m so grateful. I think this idea of overfunctioning, and especially has to do with women. Because men are never called control freaks, that’s a gendered thing. And I want to hear from the Pod Squad about this. I want to know if you have ideas for how to make this a system of undoing, getting the overfunctioner off the hook a little bit, and creating atmospheres where that other people can bring their full selves again, because they don’t feel afraid. And how we can get more people at the helm of the ship so that everybody can feel safe and less alone. It’s a big, beautiful deal. And sissy, thank you for being so open.
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh my gosh, of course. I think it’s the greatest gift, honestly, of the last year of our lives. Because you look also at your partner differently. You’re like, “I need you.”
Glennon Doyle:
He’s the one I need, actually.
Amanda Doyle:
“And I respect you, and I trust you, and we need you. And also I can breathe, because I don’t think the happiness and safety of this family is predicated on me not breathing.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
So whereas everyone else does a rapid fire, we do a slow burn.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what what we should call it.
Amanda Doyle:
And that slow burn was for you today, Pod Squad.
Abby Wambach:
Sissy, I just want to say to you-
Amanda Doyle:
Slow burn.
Abby Wambach:
…that your sister and I love you, and we think that you might need to hear from us. That we are a part of this, and we’ve got this together.
Amanda Doyle:
I know that, girl. You know I know that.
Abby Wambach:
I just want to be clear, because it seems like the communication bit’s really important, and you’re a self-awareness, and I just am so happy for you.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m going to delete all my texts. I started that say, “I’m just concerned that you seem stressed out.” Do you know what’s weird? A while back I was getting ready to send you a text, and to Abby was like, “What are you doing?” And it literally said, “I just feel worried, or concerned, or something. I feel like you’re stressed out today,” and Abby goes, “Don’t say the word concerned to Sister.”
Amanda Doyle:
Abby.
Glennon Doyle:
I was like, what? Concerned? She’s like, “I just don’t… It’s just not…”
Abby Wambach:
It sounds judgy.
Amanda Doyle:
Concerned feels interpreted as me as, “There’s an additional problem of what you need to be aware and addressed.”
Glennon Doyle:
She said it feels judgy. Interesting.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, Pod Squad, we are not concerned about you. You’ve got this, along with the help of other people who will equally hold the sky with you, perhaps. We love you. See you next time. Bye-bye.
Amanda Doyle:
Bye.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Glennon Doyle:
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