PSA: How to Not Be an A-hole
May 11, 2023
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things Pod Squad. We are super excited for this episode because we had so much fun with the first etiquette episode. We talked all about how to be a person who is not horrifically annoying among other people. And we talked about etiquette in episode 191 as not just a signal of superiority or manners, but a kind way of being among other people, and it went wild. Everybody loved this episode, so we asked you, the Pod Squad to send us your ideas about how to act and how not to act among people, and the responses were so good that we decided to create this episode giving you more ideas about how not to be annoying.
Amanda Doyle:
Inadvertently. If you want to be annoying advertently…
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
You knock yourself out.
Glennon Doyle:
Actually…
Amanda Doyle:
But if you don’t want to inadvertently offend people, here you go.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I mean, either way you should listen closely because there are some good ideas in this one if you want to be annoying. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, that’s true. It’s a win-win,
Glennon Doyle:
Right. It’s win-win, this one. And I just want to say again, we are obsessed with you. You’re, the things you call in and say, the things you write in and say, always make us laugh, make us think, make us plan whole new episodes. You all are just brilliant. Actually, let’s just jump in. Let’s hear from Charity on etiquette, new etiquette, how to treat each other, what not to say, what to say. All of the things. Let’s hear from Charity.
Charity:
Hi ladies. I’m just kidding, not ladies. Hi y’all. I just listened to your etiquette pod. This is Charity and I am calling to just agree with your etiquette about telling people they look like other people. And I want to kind of double down and let you know some red hair etiquette. I have red hair and there’s some etiquette that needs to be established relative to red hair. One, we don’t look like every redheaded celebrity. I’ve been told I look like people like Nicole Kidman. Thank you, but I don’t. All the way to Ed Sheeran. Thank you, but I don’t. Number two, you don’t need to touch our hair. You don’t need to ask us where our hair came from. Our hair came from our hair follicles just like yours. And we get really, really tired of answering that question, especially when we’re young children. And if you ask a young child that, I have a redheaded son as well, just don’t be surprised if they say something terrible to you because they’re so sick and tired of adults asking them the stupid question about where their hair has come from.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
Charity.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
Charity. Charity is giving very little charity in the way of redheaded comments, and I’m here for it. That is good.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. Here’s an idea y’all. In honor of Charity and her long-suffering self and long-suffering redheaded son, what if when we met a new person, we skipped over the first thing we thought of?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, that’s true, bump.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Seriously, think about this.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Think about if we met a very tall person, okay? It’s no offense to anyone, of course it is. The first thing we’re going to think is that person is very tall. But what if we didn’t say it? Why? Because think about how many times that person throughout their entire tall life has heard you’re so tall or some variation of, how’s the weather up there? Oh my God, you’re so tall. I can go, oh my God, you make me feel so short. Oh my God. What about the person with a sunburn? Somebody has a sunburn. Okay? It’s pretty bad. You see the person, the first thing you’re going to think is that person has a sunburn, but what if you didn’t say it? What if you waited for the second thing to come up? You would probably be within the 2% of human beings that interacts with that other person because how many times that day has that person heard about their sunburn?
Glennon Doyle:
Whatever the singular characteristic that you’re looking at, red hair, shortness, tallness, even beauty, whatever it is that you’re seeing, skip over the first thing. Wait for the second thing. What do we think?
Amanda Doyle:
Okay, but I got a follow up for that. What if it’s a really, really tall, red-headed, sunburn person? Do you have to wait for the fourth thing? I think you do.
Glennon Doyle:
You do.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Don’t say the obvious thing. The obvious thing is what that person has heard their entire life and you actually think you’re being creative. You think you’re noticing something. Well, that person maybe never noticed that they have red hair and maybe no one else has ever noticed it.
Abby Wambach:
Well, I just think that overall what we’re forgetting is there’s impact on what we say good and bad, and kind of funneling some of these instant thoughts through nope, not going to do that to like, oh gosh, your energy feels so good today or something of the sort.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Anything that’s objectifying them, you will not be the first person to do that ever. And this will be the hundredth millionth time that they’ve heard it and it’s just they’re over it.
Amanda Doyle:
Even things that are meant to be super complimentary. I just recently realized that Alice, until her very first haircut, she had down to her waist. People used to ask me if her hair was colored because she had this, her highlights were ridiculous. They were all natural, of course. I was like, who the hell colors their five year old’s hair? But I mean, if you do that, good on you. And she had ringlets of curls, just Shirley Temple ringlets to her waist before her first haircut. And I realized she got so much daily feedback about her curls because every single person came up to her and was like, your curls, oh my God, your curls are so beautiful. It’s so beautiful. You’re so cute, that when she got her haircut and her curls stopped existing, she talks all the time about how much she misses her curls.
Amanda Doyle:
And it is not because she misses her curls, it’s because she very quickly associated, oh, people think I’m special because of my curls and that no longer exists in my life. So it is a loss that she has experienced already about her value relative to interactions with other people, and it’s all because every single person approaching her said something about her appearance. Whereas if we just made a rule to not say things about people’s appearances, then they wouldn’t have these ambiguous losses where they understand very quickly what the world is appreciating about them.
Glennon Doyle:
I had that as a little kid. I was like this, as a little child I was what the world would consider a beautiful child. I had Alice’s ringlets and that’s what was, people, that’s what they see. Look at you. Oh my God, you’re so beautiful. You see their face open up. And then you turn 11 and your hair is greasy and you have zits all over your face and the world starts to contract away from you instead of move towards you, and all the attention stops and no one’s ever said anything else to you about your insides, so you assume you’ve lost all of your social capital, I guess.
Abby Wambach:
Currency, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That’s so interesting. I think we should do a whole episode or just a separate thing on what to say to children, because as a former teacher, I have ideas. It’s like the whole world only knows to say something about their appearance or to ask them what they want to be when they grow up. I swear to God, these poor kids. What do you want to be when you grow up? We say to a four-year-old knowing well we don’t know what we want to be when we grow up. It’s so odd.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, it is odd.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, Heather, let’s hear from Heather. Thank you Charity.
Heather:
Hi, this is Heather. The last podcast when you were talking about etiquette, all I can think about is when, let’s say I have a headache and I tell somebody, “Oh, I have a headache,” and somebody else says, “I’ve had a headache for a week.” Okay, don’t do that. Just say, ugh, I hate having headaches. All right. That’s it. Thanks. Bye.
Abby Wambach:
Don’t one up my headache.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh my God. It’s like Kristen Wiig. Remember when she played Penelope on SNL, the one upper? I that Thanksgiving soup kitchen skit where it was, the lady’s like, my ancestors came on the Mayflower. My ancestors came on the April flower. She was just constantly one upping. I’m thankful. I’m thank five.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m thank five.. You have to watch that one. That one’s so good. Yeah. The one upper thing, we’re with you, Heather.
Abby Wambach:
But it’s like our goal is to connect, but what happens is we disconnect. It’s like, oh yeah, I’m with you on that.
Glennon Doyle:
I know.
Abby Wambach:
But it’s really, especially when you’re like, I’ve had one for the last week.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, maybe keep the energy to the tell me more energy instead of the, let me tell you about me energy in the moment.
Amanda Doyle:
Because there’s a really weird thing that happens where you’re trying to be like, oh, I’ve been there. I connect with you. Like you’re saying, Abby, if someone’s going through a divorce and you’re like, I also went through a divorce, it doesn’t make you feel less alone because your particular experience is so ridiculously unique to you. Even if it ends up in five years you can see the parallels, you can’t see in that moment how anyone’s experience can possibly relate to the intensity and intimacy of your experience. So a spotlight that you’ve asked for a minute becomes spread and you no longer feel seen.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Because now we’re looking at you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
I used to be a one upper it. I honestly think this is was one of the personality traits of mine that I’ve been the most embarrassed about, and I only actually realized it when I got a family and I was one upping my own children. And Glennon was like, “So first of all, they’re kids. Of course, you have a different amazing story that you can tell that overshadows their silly fifth grade story.”
Glennon Doyle:
Emma will be like, “Daddy’s going to take me to look for a new bike,” and Abby’d be like, “I have a new car, so I have a new car. I have two cars.”
Amanda Doyle:
I got a gold tooth and I have two gold medals.
Abby Wambach:
It was hard for me because it’s a habit. Because it’s an insecurity and a vulnerability in a moment in a communication moment. It’s like, I don’t know what to say. This is awkward, and so all I can do is reach into the pile and the storage that I have in my memory of what I can do and how this Venn diagram relates to me. That’s what I think communication is, but it’s actually discommunication.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so smart. Do you think that also is skipping over the obvious thing? It’s almost like we have this knee-jerk reaction of what we’re supposed to say, but there’s a moment where we can just go ah, and think a little bit harder. Because when somebody says, I have a headache, if you look at what they’re saying underneath it, they wouldn’t be saying that out loud unless what they were really saying was, I just need to talk about my headache for a second.
Amanda Doyle:
Right. I’m in pain. See me, or understand how I am in this moment and why I’m reacting this way. They’re not like, has anyone here ever experienced the phenomenon of your head being in pain?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s not what they’re asking.
Glennon Doyle:
Under that sentence they’re thinking, I need to talk about my headache for a minute. So I think that’s awesome that what you just said, to think about what’s next as opposed to my first connection to that.
Abby Wambach:
And it’s usually just like this little awkward discontent, this social anxiety we all experience where we don’t know what to say and we’re thinking of the best thing and we get it wrong a lot, and that’s okay too. But I think you’re right, don’t say the first thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Deeper, and it’s maybe it’s not right or wrong. It’s just there’s a deeper experience of this conversation. There’s a deeper way. Okay. How about Jody?
Jody:
Hi, my name is Jody and I just listened to your podcast on etiquette BS. I loved it. One of my biggest pet peeves as a single, never married, childless by choice, mid-50s woman, is the questions over the years about when are you getting married? Why aren’t you married yet? Aren’t you lonely? And in my mind, the whole time I’m saying the words fuck off. It’s just don’t assume that people are single because, just don’t ask. It’s none of your business. I am happy in my life and be happy in yours. This poking and prodding, it makes me retreat into myself and not want to go out. Abby, Amanda, Glennon, I love you. Thank you so much. Keep on keeping on.
Glennon Doyle:
Jody, everything that you just said, Jody, and how you said it, yes. Thank you for your honesty. That is exactly right. That is exactly right. It’s so strange when you think about the rates of divorce and misery within marriage. We really should be saying when people say they’re married, we really should be saying, why did you get married?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, exactly. Tell us more about that. Have you thought that through? Do you think at some point you’re going to be lonely? Do you think at some point you’re going to regret this decision because you can’t go back? Once you’re married, you can’t go back.
Glennon Doyle:
Or when people say they’re married, we should just say, so have you thought about divorce? When are you going to get divorced? When are you going to get divorced?
Amanda Doyle:
How do you know you’re really happy?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
How do you?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a good idea. And also the similar to this, it’s the people with one child. I hear from them that they’re constantly being asked, why don’t you have another one? You’re just going to have an only child? Do you think that’s good for them? It’s just it’s wild what we think is our business.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. It’s like a projection vomit.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a projection. It’s a projection.
Abby Wambach:
It’s just like all of my fears. I’ve got to somehow give you an avenue where you won’t make mistakes around what my fears are.
Glennon Doyle:
And I think one of the beauties of having these conversations is not to be shaming. We could actually make people more comfortable being out and about, make people feel more accepted by having these conversations because people who are saying, are you married or you have kids, blah, blah, blah. It’s not horrible. They’re not trying to be, they’re trying to connect and be loving, so no shame. Just let’s consider that those questions might be doing more harm than good for some people. Do you have kids? Do you, think about all the things that go into that in terms of maybe people who want kids but can’t have them or have kids but don’t want them more?
Abby Wambach:
Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
Or loss or just, it’s so loaded. We think it’s a surface question and it’s not. It’s a question into the deepest recesses of people’s hearts and lives and desires, and maybe those questions, the ones we think are surface are actually the conversations we only go into with the people with whom we’ve already earned deep trust.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. We think of them as throwaway questions. Like, that’s easy. I’m not asking them anything personal. Are you married or not? But that’s actually deeply personal. Let’s think of some alternatives. If you just met someone, you could say, tell me about yourself. What are you into? What makes you happy? What are you going through?
Glennon Doyle:
Abby always says, “How do you spend your days? What’s your favorite day?” She will say this on a Zoom call with a person we just met, that’s a business call. Instead of saying, what do you do? What’s your work? She’ll be like, “What’s your best day like? What do you like to just spend your time?”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I think that we don’t have…
Glennon Doyle:
That’s cool.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I don’t think we have enough conversation neutral questions. And then I also think something that’s really important is we’ve all done it. We’ve all breached a line that you can see it on the face of the person that you’ve crossed a line, and I think that we don’t take care of what transgression we’ve just made instantly, because guess what? You can save the conversation by saying, oh my gosh, totally crossed a line. Totally crossed a boundary. My bad. Totally not my business.
Glennon Doyle:
And onward. You don’t make the other person reassure you.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Our kids have taught us that with misgendering. So the most open-minded inclusive people have been using genders and assuming genders for a very long time. So even if you are wanting to be completely inclusive, you can misgender somebody or use the wrong pronoun. But what you don’t do we’ve learned, is make a big deal out of it so that the other person who’s just suffered the misgendering or the wrong pronoun now has to make you feel better because you’re effusively apologizing. So if we use the wrong pronoun or whatever our children have taught us, we say, oops, sorry. Fix it and onward.
Amanda Doyle:
Continue with the sentence so that they don’t have to deal with cleaning up the mess.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, next question.
Amanda Doyle:
Let’s hear it.
Anon:
Hi, Abby, Glen and sister. Something with etiquette that I think will never go out of style would be holding the door open for someone. To me that’s just bottom line manners and etiquette combined, and I hope that everyone keeps holding that door open for others. You guys are the best. And sister, love you.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, she gave me a little special shout out there.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, she’s a sister fan. I love it.
Abby Wambach:
I have something to say about this.
Glennon Doyle:
I can’t wait to hear it, love.
Abby Wambach:
So I’m a door open holder, but what do you do? This is a question to you two. What do you do when you’re stuck?
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, that happens to me all the time.
Abby Wambach:
And your family’s now indoors, right? Walking forward ahead and you’ve got 10 or 15 more people to let you in. Is there an etiquette to just open it, hold it for a few, and then hold it open as if you’re in the door for the next person to take over?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there’s the baton, the passing of the baton.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
So where you can kind of hold it open for the people immediately behind you, then you follow them through the door, holding it open and give them a little smile to the person who’s next in line, who’s going to be holding it open and then doing the same. I don’t think you have to be trapped there for 10 minutes.
Abby Wambach:
And you’re like, got it?
Amanda Doyle:
Because that does happen.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. You’re like, got it?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, got it? Got it?
Abby Wambach:
You got got it? Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like the door opening is one of the phenomenon that proves to me over and over again that I am not that good of a person. Okay. Because here’s the story of my life. I am a door holder opener. Okay. I am going to be there. I am like this is my moment.
Amanda Doyle:
Sun is shining.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, it’s not too hard. It’s not, because I don’t want to do hard. Abby wants to save the lives of everyone who’s walking by. She wants to stop on a day and…
Amanda Doyle:
Strong ROI…
Glennon Doyle:
Do CPR. Do people’s oil. She’s like superwoman. I want to hold a door.
Abby Wambach:
That’s like the limit?
Amanda Doyle:
You feel good about yourself for the rest of the day.
Abby Wambach:
Done. That’s the limit of your…
Glennon Doyle:
I want to return my grocery cart and I want to hold the door. And honestly, not too long. Okay?
Abby Wambach:
You want to hold the door for one patron.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, most, that’s good. Yeah. So I’m like, I’m a good person, so I’m going to hold this door. Then the person does not say thank you.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, that is a…
Glennon Doyle:
But what I want you to understand is that I go from good Samaritan to homicidal hate in two seconds, which is proof to me. It’s just a little Glennon experiment to myself, just a little. I am not doing it to be nice clearly, because I wish that person not well when they don’t say thank you. I do not wish that person well. I do not think, well, I did the right thing and every, to each her own. I think to you horrible things. And sometimes I will say, you’re welcome and start a confrontation. Start a confrontation. You’ve seen this, right, babe?
Abby Wambach:
It’s embarrassing.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It’s actually embarrassing.
Glennon Doyle:
I agree.
Abby Wambach:
You’re trying to do a good thing. Good Samaritan, by its definition is to not require something in return. So what you’re doing is you’re creating an environment where this is a give and take.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Oh, exactly. I’m only doing it to get thanked, and the person didn’t ask for it either. So it’s kind of like…
Abby Wambach:
Sabotage.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. It’s like I walk up to a person on the street, I hand them a gift that they didn’t ask for, and then they look at me confusedly and then I punch them in the face.
Amanda Doyle:
I think what’s happening here, Glennon, is that the kryptonite for us is a sense of entitlement.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
And so when someone walks through the door that we’ve held open, which we are very clearly counting the cost to.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Then it’s like, oh, you think I was just born to open this door for you? You think the whole world should just be opening doors for you. You think I don’t have anything better to do?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
I could be looking at my phone right now, but I’m opening this door for you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like that sensibility because we’re very hypervigilant and aware, so we would notice every single thing…
Glennon Doyle:
Noticing.
Amanda Doyle:
So that feels like they have done the calculus and they have decided, you know what? I’m walking through this door. I see you’re opening it, and I am electing to withhold my gratitude.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. And they’re likely not right. They likely just…
Amanda Doyle:
No. Very likely not.
Glennon Doyle:
They likely just missed it.
Abby Wambach:
Well also, they didn’t ask for it.
Glennon Doyle:
They didn’t ask for it.
Abby Wambach:
You’re taking a chance, but requiring a response.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s ridiculous.
Abby Wambach:
Okay, good. I’m just glad…
Glennon Doyle:
I totally understand. I mean, I am trying to unleash vigilante door holding justice all day and it’s not good. That’s what I’m saying.
Abby Wambach:
Can you just not hold the door open for people?
Glennon Doyle:
Probably not. Like I’m not going to change. I think I’ll just keep doing it this way.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a nice little reminder of connectedness with the world when we hold doors open and people hold doors open for us. I’m always like, oh my god, thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
We’re in this together.
Amanda Doyle:
Like someone’s just handed me a homemade pie or something.
Abby Wambach:
The amount that I sprint towards somebody who’s opening, holding the door for me. I’m like, wait, I’m coming. I’m coming. I’m coming. I’m coming. Hold.
Glennon Doyle:
I know. And then the people who you’re holding the door and they just saunter. They saunter. They just walk so slow.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh God. That’s like when you stop on the road to let someone pass, and then they walk.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Leisurely.
Glennon Doyle:
And you’re like, you want to hit them.
Amanda Doyle:
Across the street.
Glennon Doyle:
You want to hit them.
Amanda Doyle:
And I want to run them over with my car.
Glennon Doyle:
Same as the door thing. It’s not nice. But once in a while, the universe just provides the correct shaming for me. So what will happen is I hold the door, the person walks through. They don’t turn around and say, thank you. I say, you’re welcome, or whatever. And then the person turns around and says, oh my God, I’m so sorry. I didn’t see. And then I’m like, yeah. It’s horrific.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. Let’s hear from Elena.
Elena:
Hi, Glennon and Abby and sister. My name’s Elena and I have a question about the etiquette episode I just listened to. Okay. So me and my partner have this constant disagreement. I burp very loudly. I am a loud burper, I often do not know when they’re coming. And by the time they’re here, it’s too late for me to stop. My partner thinks this is bullshit. He thinks that I know it’s coming and I can stop it. He also thinks it’s extremely rude to burp out loud in public or in gatherings. I think it’s normal, and I do not feel ashamed about this. I actually kind of like this part of myself and think it’s funny, but when I do burp in front of our friend, I get a look of horror from my partner. So I just want to know who is right. Can I keep burping loudly and embrace it, or is this rude and nasty? Thanks. Love to hear your guys’ opinion. Love you all. Bye.
Abby Wambach:
I can’t wait to get into this.
Glennon Doyle:
I just have such respect for Elena.
Amanda Doyle:
I know. What a badass.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my God, I don’t, Elena is from a different planet than I’m from, and I like that planet.
Abby Wambach:
No, you don’t.
Glennon Doyle:
I do. I have crazy respect for this.
Abby Wambach:
You have respect for it, but you don’t live it.
Glennon Doyle:
No, I don’t live it. That’s why I just said I’m from a different planet. I’m from a different planet where everyone is ashamed.
Amanda Doyle:
Do you think Elena might be from China or Taiwan? Because in those countries, burping in the context of a meal is the highest form of flattery because it means, look, this was delicious. I’m having a gastronomical reaction.
Abby Wambach:
That’s amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
The astronomical reaction is so interesting. What’s happening in our family, our daughter, if Abby’s eating and she’s making enjoyable noises to the food, like mm, our daughter cannot stand it. She thinks it’s gross. She thinks it’s sexual sounding.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, it is sensual. She’s having sensual experience. That’s where that comes from. Yeah. Sensual.
Glennon Doyle:
Like, I think she’s me. But she’s like, can you just say this is good?
Amanda Doyle:
Can you use your brain instead of you body?
Abby Wambach:
It’s unreal. I mean, I just have to say, first of all, Elena, I love your lack of shame around this, and I think it’s important. And I do think that there’s a part of you, it might be small, but I do think there’s a part of you that likes the fact that this bothers your partner. Truly.
Glennon Doyle:
Ooh, that’s interesting. Do you like the fact that the bodily noises bother me?
Abby Wambach:
Honey, I don’t make bodily noises because they bother you. I don’t fart in front of you.
Amanda Doyle:
Even the looming threat of bodily noises bothers you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
There’s never actually been…
Abby Wambach:
I apologize for sneezing.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. I like…
Abby Wambach:
I’m so sorry. Well,
Glennon Doyle:
That’s because it scares me so much.
Abby Wambach:
Here we go. And then when I burp, I’m like, oh.
Glennon Doyle:
Everything’s quiet and then it’s so loud, and everyone in my family drops to the ground. I want to give the Pod Squad, and I’m just doing this in the moment, but I would like to give the Pod Squad the gift. In honor of Elena, I want you to tell the story, Mary Abigail, of what happened in our home three nights ago.
Abby Wambach:
So I was brushing my teeth and we pee with the door open. No big deal. And we have the unwritten rule in our marriage that we don’t do farting in front of each other,
Glennon Doyle:
Because of me, because I’m ashamed of farting and ever, and I don’t fart and…
Abby Wambach:
Bullshit.
Amanda Doyle:
You don’t fart? You don’t fart. That’s what you’re going with, Doyle?
Glennon Doyle:
Listen to the story.
Amanda Doyle:
Doyle, unlike the rest of y’all, doesn’t fart.
Glennon Doyle:
Listen to this story.
Abby Wambach:
So there she is on the toilet going potty, and I’m brushing my teeth and we’re chit-chatting about something.
Glennon Doyle:
Looking at each other in each other’s eyes. She’s brushing her teeth, looking at me pee on the toilet.
Abby Wambach:
She lets a fart out accidentally. It’s an accidental fart because you should have seen her face. There was so much happen, and it was like a big one. It was like a…
Glennon Doyle:
Pod Squad.
Abby Wambach:
It’s my favorite moment ever.
Glennon Doyle:
I was looking into my wife’s eyes peeing and farting and…
Amanda Doyle:
Did you give her a wink?
Glennon Doyle:
And I couldn’t stop, but we couldn’t unlock eyes.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
And there was this moment where you thought, did she hear that?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Did she? I could see if she was going to chat and wiggle out of it.
Amanda Doyle:
The alternate reality you live in when you do something like that where you’re like, there was a scenario in which the person didn’t hear that or didn’t smell that. Well, let’s just, let’s stay the course. Let’s just stay the course.
Glennon Doyle:
And I just started screaming.
Abby Wambach:
No. She goes, no. No. No. And then she wiped from her pee and stood up and ran away. No, nothing. We’re never talking about that again. No, it didn’t, nothing happened. And I was like, oh my God.
Amanda Doyle:
For real? Is that the first time that you have farted in front of her?
Abby Wambach:
Well, she farts in her sleep all the time.
Glennon Doyle:
We’re going rogue, stop it. I only offered permission for this small slice of story.
Amanda Doyle:
Well I do think Elena’s question is a very good one. Cause we’re experiencing this in my family right now, which is that my daughter is a tooting machine. She farts more than anyone I’ve ever met, and she has no shame about it. And so she’ll fart at the dinner table, just walking around, in front of friends, in her classroom. And I don’t know how to, I don’t want to set her up for a disaster of a situation, but I also don’t want to breed in her that there’s something shameful when it’s her body’s natural thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. You don’t want her to end up like me.
Abby Wambach:
I think that…
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly. That’s the last damn thing I want.
Abby Wambach:
Here’s what I’ve learned over the last seven years, because I used to be just like Alice, and now having had some time to think about that life, I realize there’s some error in that way. It’s like considering what you say to somebody else. It’s like you have to consider the impact. And nobody wants to smell somebody else’s fart.
Abby Wambach:
And so for me, what I do is I go on a little bit of a walk after dinner, I’ll walk down to our bedroom and I will fart on my own, in my own time, in my own way. And then I walk back upstairs because I realize that it is upsetting when other people produce horrible smell around me. I don’t like that. That’s not fair to the community space. So maybe explain that to her, and then also giving her an option of what to do instead of just by the grace of your butthole, just let loose whenever it’s ready. You can actually hold your farts in and hold the gas in and go find a different better place to do it.
Amanda Doyle:
Well and, okay. That’s good. For Elena, all I want to say to Elena is I don’t have any advice for you. I just think you’re really cool that despite the opposition and resistance to your burping, you not only continue it, but you maintain that you have a right.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And in fact, you said, I really like this about myself.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And what I like about you a Elena, is that you are not a conformist.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
And you are in touch with your body and you’re like, my body does this and it’s going to do it. So what I think is that you’ve already decided for yourself, that you’re okay with your partner not loving every single thing that you do, and still trusting that they love you. And I think it’s cool.
Glennon Doyle:
I think Elena’s a bit of a revolution.
Abby Wambach:
I know. I like Elena.
Glennon Doyle:
There’s something there.
Amanda Doyle:
I also like their partner.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let’s go to Dara.
Dara:
Hi, my name is Dara. I would like good manners to include that you cannot follow, I’m sorry with the word, but.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Dara:
Because I’m sorry but, means you’re about to tell me either why I shouldn’t be upset or why it was actually my fault. I’m sorry is a complete sentence period. And it means I really wish that I hadn’t done that, and I’m going to try as hard as I can to never do it again. And if you can’t say both of those things, then don’t tell me you’re sorry. If you are going to say sorry, it has to mean something. And if it doesn’t, then just don’t say it and that’s okay. Maybe we need a boundary, maybe we need to move on with our lives separately. That’s fine. But mean if you’re going to say it.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
Abby?
Abby Wambach:
It’s a good one.
Glennon Doyle:
Why are you shaking like you’re so excited about this one?
Abby Wambach:
Because it takes you like three tries to get your apology correct.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Because I can actually see that you’re not sorry.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. That’s the thing.
Abby Wambach:
You want the transgression to be done, over with. Be like, I’m so sorry. And I’m like, you just want this to be over rather than getting in touch with how much it hurt me.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It’s a vulnerability issue.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s vulnerability. Yeah. Because I’m actually really good at it with everyone except for you and sister.
Abby Wambach:
Why the fuck is that? That is so weird.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s only the people that I love the most that I cannot handle it. I don’t know.
Amanda Doyle:
Because you’re trying to explain yourself because you need to be understood from the place you’re coming from. Because when you really hurt people that you love, you want to express how thoughtful you were in your interaction and why the intention from which it was coming was to try to get closer or was to try to be understood to begin with. So you don’t want to say as if all of it was a mistake. You’re trying to explain where you were trying to go when you went awry. And so I think that that’s where the intention comes from. But I really like this if you can’t say, I really wish I hadn’t done that, and I’m going to try as hard as I can to never do it again, then maybe that’s not, I’m sorry. Because there’s some things that I do that are hurtful to people and I’m actually not going to try to not do it again.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, because I’m sorry. I’m sorry. What that means is I have sorrow. I have sorrow about having hurt you. And I think what happens when we do the but thing is that we haven’t gotten to the point or we actually feel sorrow for the thing. So maybe unless we get to the point where we actually feel sorrow in ourselves because we see how that thing hurt someone, it’s something else. It’s not, I’m sorry.
Amanda Doyle:
Maybe it’s a need for further discussion. I could see a world in which I would, if I still don’t understand, because I think it partly comes from that. You know you’ve hurt someone, but you don’t understand the disconnect between where you were coming from and where the other person’s sadness or offense bumped up with that. And so part of it for me is sometimes the other person’s offense and upset can become so big that it totally eclipses where you are coming from, which might be a legitimate place to begin with. So maybe it starts with, it makes me so deeply sad that I have upset you so much. I can see how upset you are. The last thing I ever want to do is upset you. Can we please sit down and talk about how we got here? And then you can say what my intention was was this. I see that my impact was this. And it’s different. It’s just a different way than saying I’m sorry. Because what does I’m sorry mean if you don’t actually understand what happened?
Glennon Doyle:
Nothing.
Abby Wambach:
Yes. But I think right before this moment, because I can speak for myself here, and when Glennon’s trying to apologize, there is a lack of belief so it seems, that I am entitled to my sorrow because there is a lack of acceptance and accountability for whatever transgression has happened. So I think that there is a little disconnect, and I believe that you’re right, sister, there is this conversation that can happen in between the, I’m sorry, and also the who’s right or wrong with it. But I do think that in a lot of relationships, it’s the person who is unwilling to accept any kind of responsibility or accountability for the thing because I think half the time you don’t think you’ve done anything wrong.
Glennon Doyle:
I think that one of my many tragic flaws is desperately seeking to be understood. And so I think that it leads to some good things in my life and it leads to some major bad things because I think in those moments I’m thinking she just doesn’t understand what I was doing then.
Amanda Doyle:
If only I could explain it better what I was doing, I would magically evaporate all of this hurt.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Because I would never.
Amanda Doyle:
Because she’d be like, oh wait, that’s what you were going? Cool then.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what I actually think is going to happen every time, even though that’s never happened. Not one time.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I always think if I just explain it better, no, but it’s not just smartness. Because at my core, with you and sister, with lots of people, I’m like, I fucked up. But with you two, I’m like, no, if they knew where it was coming from because I love them so much, because I blah, blah, blah, blah. So it’s just a lack of explanation, which then is so minimizing to you all because I really probably am scared to death to be like, oh my God, I actually fucked up.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Because then I’m like, I’m a bad person.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right. That’s where you go to.
Amanda Doyle:
But I think it’s a deeper level than that. I think you’re terrified in your deepest relationships that the other person doesn’t understand you. It’s like, wait, we have this huge gulf where you’re over here feeling sad about what happened to you, so that means that you’re completely missing everything that’s happening to me over here. So we’re supposed to make it magically erase by me saying, I’m sorry, but then I still have this whole gulf that is not understood and is never going to be addressed because that’s what got us here to begin with.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
It’s like what Dr. Orna Garelick said. Managing otherness is what is probably one of the biggest…
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Disconnects.
Glennon Doyle:
And I do have a commitment to only saying the truth, and when I’m trying to apologize and I don’t feel super sorry, it looks ridiculous. I can’t do it, and it looks disrespectful and it looks like what it is which is not real.
Amanda Doyle:
It feels like out of integrity, like a little patronizing. Oh, here’s the part where I pretend to be sorry about this horseshit that I’m not really sorry about.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
I feel that way sometimes. And that’s why I think what Dara is saying is, that’s cool. Then don’t use the words, I’m sorry, and then follow it up with all the reasons you’re not Sorry.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
Just say something different then.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I’m with you, Dara.
Amanda Doyle:
It could be as simple as we need to sit down and gain an understanding of where each other is coming from because you’re so upset and I never want to make you upset, and I don’t understand how we got here.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, that is something that I say, but we get to the point and I say, okay, I just need to think about this. And that’s what I really mean. I got to figure out how we got to this place. What did I say? What did I do wrong? I just have to think about it. But Abby’s like, why do you have to think about it? My feelings are hurt. Just be sorry, and be sad.
Amanda Doyle:
And that’s a control thing though for you. You don’t have to think about it so you can make sense of it, so you can come back to her and explain it to her so that it makes sense to her. You just have to sit down and be like, I’m baffled.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Help me understand where you’re coming from.
Glennon Doyle:
I know.
Amanda Doyle:
And if you’re willing to hear me out, I’ll tell you where I’m coming from. But you don’t go away and figure it out and then come back and inform Abby of what happened.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Abby Wambach:
It’s also like a vulnerability.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s vulnerability.
Abby Wambach:
I think at the end of it, that’s what you’re afraid of is to be like, oh, no, I did something that made you feel a certain way that wasn’t ideal.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, let’s go to Ray.
Ray:
Hi, this is Ray. Just calling with another etiquette idea, and it’s whoever has the middle seat on the airplane gets the arm rests. I’m not sure why this isn’t more widely accepted, but it should be. Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
What are all of your top plane things or just everybody give us a plane etiquette role.
Amanda Doyle:
So if any kind of device is being activated, you must have headphones.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Yes. And as someone who’s obsessed with children, love the children. Always love children first, even if it’s a child.
Amanda Doyle:
Especially if it’s a child.
Glennon Doyle:
Do not have your child…
Amanda Doyle:
Because the they shit listen to is intolerable.
Glennon Doyle:
Do not have your child watching the iPad on SpongeBob Squarepants or whatever it is these days. It’s inexcusable.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. You need the headphones. Just do that please.
Glennon Doyle:
Headphones, headphones.
Abby Wambach:
There are circumstances because if you’ve got two armrests, most people don’t necessarily sit with two arms on the whole of the armrests. They’re just using them for their elbows. And so you can actually ask the person, can I pop up here if need be? But I agree, the middle seat does get access to both armrests. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And also, and our dear friend Chelsea Handler has dedicated most of her life to raising the awareness of this PSA, which is just, please, let’s not do no socks and no shoes…
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, that’s gross.
Glennon Doyle:
On planes.
Amanda Doyle:
Is Elena allowed to burp on the plane or no?
Glennon Doyle:
Only Elena. Elena’s allowed to do whatever the hell she wants.
Amanda Doyle:
Only Elena. Also, I think the baggage claim would work better for example, if we didn’t all, we don’t actually have to be in contact with the perimeter of the baggage claim to claim our bags. In fact, if we all just took a little step back and then approached the baggage claim when our bag was present, then we wouldn’t have to all be elbowing the out of each other to see our bags.
Abby Wambach:
So good.
Amanda Doyle:
We could do that. Just hang back a little bit. Those bags aren’t going anywhere without you.
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s end with Michelle.
Michelle:
Hi, my name is Michelle. So I was listening to the etiquette podcast and I had a huge, huge pet peeve. My youngest daughter has Down syndrome, and when I tell people or introduce the fact that she has Down syndrome, people have the audacity to say, oh, I’m sorry, like there’s something wrong with her, like she has cancer or something. She doesn’t. She has an extra chromosome, and it’s fucking amazing and there’s absolutely nothing to be sorry about. It is the hardest, most amazing thing I have ever done as a parent. My other three kids are typical. They have the typical amount of chromosomes. She does not. She has an extra one, and there’s absolutely nothing to be sorry about. And that’s all I have to say about that. Thank you. You guys are amazing. Bye.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t think there needs to be anything said about that. I think that’s all there is to say about that. Damn right, Michelle. We love all of you. I think we should do this every once in a while. I also want to ask the Pod Squad because of the treasure trove of etiquette tips, I want to do an episode soon about the best advice and the worst advice we’ve ever received or heard, conventional advice that’s out there. We’re going to do that soon, and we want to hear from you, Pod Squad, what is the best advice and what is the worst advice you’ve ever received? Call us at (747) 200-5307 or email us at whatever our email address is.
Abby Wambach:
Hold on.
Glennon Doyle:
You all are the absolute best. It’s WCDHT@pod…
Abby Wambach:
Nope.
Glennon Doyle:
Nope, nope. It’s not that. It’s W. It’s capital, does capital…
Abby Wambach:
No, it doesn’t matter.
Amanda Doyle:
Doesn’t need to be capital.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. It’s capital or lowercase [email protected].
Abby Wambach:
You did it.
Glennon Doyle:
I did it. I nailed it. Okay, so email us or call us, and don’t forget y’all, we love the 20 minute voicemails and especially the ones where you talk and then hang up and then call us back and then keep talking and then hang up and call us back. But if you want us to use it, just try to smoosh it a little bit. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
A lot bit, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
One minute or so or shorter. Okay. We love you Pod Squad. Let’s all be kind and brave humans among other kind and brave humans this week, and we will see you back here next time. Bye.
Amanda Doyle:
Bye.
Glennon Doyle:
If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you’d be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things. Following the pod helps you because you’ll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you’ll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you’re there, if you’d be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.