We Can Do Hard Things Ep 196

How Glennon & Abby Learned to Talk Dirty with Vanessa Marin

April 6, 2023

Glennon Doyle:

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we are back with a woman who is really helping us get our shit together when it comes to sex. She’s inviting us into some amazing conversations with each other. She’s getting some fire started over in our home here. Her name is Vanessa Marin.

Glennon Doyle:

Vanessa Marin is a sex therapist, an instant New York Times bestselling author of Sex Talks: The 5 Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life. It was co-written with her husband and partner in crime, Xander Marin. Vanessa is here to help you kick shame out of the bedroom so you can start feeling the connection, pleasure, and joy you deserve. If you have not listened to Episode 1, please go back and do that because the first two sex conversations that she suggests we have are over there. I’m not reviewing them, because I’m really wanting to get into Conversation 3, which is about desire. Vanessa, you say that your goal with people when it comes to desire is just to help them unlock their particular desire potential. What the hell does that mean?

Vanessa Marin:

Well, we were talking in the last episode about how most of us feel this internal pressure that we should be having more sex. We’re shoulding all over ourselves, and we talked about getting in touch with what are your actual desires? There is no one perfect number that couples should be having sex every week. There’s not the magic number that’s going to make your relationship healthy and whole. We need to figure out, what is it that feels genuine and good to us?

Vanessa Marin:

So with desire, there are so many things that can get in the way of desire, that can block it, that can eliminate it all together. I want to help people understand what those blockages are and create the space for their desire to be in their lives, with the understanding that their desire is going to look very different from somebody else’s desire. There is no perfect amount of desire.

Glennon Doyle:

And you say there are “me” aspects of desire and “we” aspects of desire. What do you mean by “me” aspects of desire?

Vanessa Marin:

I think sex drive is something that happens within us. The libido is something that we feel like within our own bodies, and there are a lot of dynamics that just us on our own, no matter what partner we have, there are going to be different dynamics that come up. Maybe I grew up in a purity culture. Maybe I have a difficult relationship with my body. Maybe I have never explored my own pleasure and figured out how to bring myself to orgasm. So those are the “me” dynamics.

Vanessa Marin:

The “we” dynamics are things that happen between us and our partner, that sex drive, desire, it’s something that we foster between the two of us. It might be things like we don’t feel connected to each other. We’re arguing, we haven’t had any quality time, we haven’t had a date night. Why would I want to be intimate with this person? It may also be the kind of sex we’re having. Maybe it feels like sex is all about my partner and there’s not really much in it for me. I’m not experiencing a lot of pleasure. So I think it’s useful to break down these dynamics, so we have a little bit of homework in either area, ways to get to know ourselves better and then ways that we can get to know ourselves and our partner, the connection that we create together.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, because sometimes we wonder why we don’t desire sex, wonder why our desire isn’t higher.

Abby Wambach:

I think it’s a fear that, it’s like embedded in us. From the time we’re made on this earth, and I think that we put so much more priority in your sex life than maybe looking at the whole of your relationship as a full ecosystem, and sex is a portion of it, and however big that slice might be is going to be dependent on you personally and you and your partner.

Abby Wambach:

And I get frustrated because I think that we are all conditioned to believe that sex is the most important and biggest indicator of how good your relationship can be, and desire is one of those things that is ebbing and flowing all the time.

Glennon Doyle:

Well, one of the points that Vanessa makes about that is sometimes we can wonder why we don’t desire more sex in our relationship, without thinking that maybe we’re having shitty sex and that’s why we’re not desiring it. For example, I’m recovering from anorexia right now, Vanessa, and I would’ve told you a year ago, “I don’t need food. I’m good with my five safe foods. They’re fine. I’m fine. It’s good. I don’t need all that shit everyone else needs.” I would’ve told you that and I would’ve believed it 100%.

Glennon Doyle:

Now I’m eating all the foods. They are so good. I’m at Abby’s, I’m at a restaurant. I’m like, “Oh my God. This is what everybody has been talking about. This is why everyone wishes I would order something else.” I now understand that it wasn’t that I didn’t need food, it was that I was eating shitty food. So if your desire is low, it could be that you’re not exploring all the possibilities of food/sex. Do you understand what I’m saying, Vanessa?

Vanessa Marin:

Absolutely. It’s funny how many comparisons there are between food and sex.

Amanda Doyle:

It is so funny.

Vanessa Marin:

This is a really important connection that so few people make. The enjoyment of sex and the desire for sex. And once you hear it laid out, then it’s like it clicks like, “Oh my gosh, of course. How have I never thought about it this way?” But so few people make that connection. If you’re not enjoying the sex that you’re having, why would you crave that sex? It doesn’t make any sense to. I never crave eating a bowl of overly steamed mushy broccoli. No, I never crave that. Do I judge myself? Feel like something’s wrong with me? Something’s broken with me, “Why do I never crave overly steamed mushy broccoli?” No, of course. And sex is the same way. If I’m not getting anything out of it, if I’m not enjoying it, which way more people than you would think are having mushy broccoli type sex. But why would we have this raging, wild, uncontrollable desire for it? It doesn’t make any sense.

Amanda Doyle:

In fact, you point out that one third of women experience pain during sex. Are in pain. So it’s like, “Why don’t you crave stubbing your toe?” Because it fucking hurts, that’s why. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with me because of that. So if you think one in three women are feeling that way, and then we’re berating ourselves for not waking up in the morning being like, “Damn, can’t wait to get that paper cut.”

Vanessa Marin:

Isn’t that statistic wild?

Amanda Doyle:

It’s wild.

Vanessa Marin:

I’ve heard it so many times, I’ve said it so many times and it still blows my mind. Like one in every three women. And the statistic was the last time she had sex. This is not like, “One time in my life years ago I experienced pain.” The last time.

Amanda Doyle:

And don’t you think that equates to a much bigger part of this ecosystem, which is that if we thought sex was made for our own pleasure and part of our inherent birthright to experience the joy of sexual encounters, then one in three of us wouldn’t be in pain during sex. Because we’d be like, “This is a problem. This is getting in the way of my birthright. I’m going to go figure this out.” And we would have the kind of medical care that would take that problem seriously.

Amanda Doyle:

But I think it’s part and parcel of this whole system, which is like, “Sex is a thing that I give to my partner. Sex is a thing that is an obligation and an important part of my relationship. Sex isn’t this inherent part of me that I have a right to explore myself and get what I want out of it.”

Vanessa Marin:

Can you imagine what the world would look like if it was men who were experiencing that much pain?

Amanda Doyle:

It’s almost like they’d be having drugs delivered to them on a weekly basis to solve that problem. Oh wait, they already do.

Glennon Doyle:

It’s so interesting. One of the things that Abby and I have talked a lot about from this chapter is, desire is not only what turns us on, but when having this conversation, we often have to talk about turnoffs. We have to talk about this for a few minutes. I mean, let me read from the book some of the turnoffs you’ve heard from people. Here are some turnoffs, “Trying to kiss me with coffee breath, getting drunk. Just getting naked. No, I need a little romance first. Burping and farting.”

Abby Wambach:

There it is. There’s the one that I have very much listened to and input into our relationship.

Glennon Doyle:

“When I bend over to pick something up, he comes behind me and grinds himself against my ass. Deep throat and phlegm clearing.”

Vanessa Marin:

Oh, that’s one of mine. Makes me shudder.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah. That’s one of Glennon’s.

Glennon Doyle:

“When he eats yogurt and it’s so loud. How? Yogurt is such a quiet food.”

Vanessa Marin:

That’s my personal favorite one.

Glennon Doyle:

Me too. “Initiating by pulling out the lube and tossing it at me.” Can we talk about turnoffs for a while? And I want you to just talk to Abby because we have this… No, because we have this impenetrable force and immovable, whatever argument which is in your relationship, you should get to be your fully human self. But what if your fully human self wants to fart and burp and do things that make the other fully human self in the relationship just wish for a little more mystery?

Vanessa Marin:

So the solution that Xander and I came up with for this is I gave him a safe space. A safe zone in our house. I said, “In any bathroom, you can fart to your heart’s delight, in any bathroom that you want. And it doesn’t matter even if I am in the bathroom with you, that’s your safe zone to fart.” And that has been working well for us and it gives me a little bit more patience for farting. It’s a bodily function, we don’t have perfect control over it. So the times that it just happens, I have a little bit more grace for him. But when I see him making that effort to go to his safe zone, gives me a little bit more patience.

Vanessa Marin:

But it is a really fascinating question. How do we navigate different preferences here? And I think the thing is, neither partner is wrong. If for one partner farting and burping and being in your sweats all the time, if that feels like intimacy for you, that’s intimacy for you. And if you share that with your partner though, that can help them realize, “It’s not just me being inconsiderate and not caring about you and purposefully trying to turn you off and annoy you, but that’s the way that I experience intimacy with you.”

Glennon Doyle:

Oh my God.

Vanessa Marin:

And if you’re a person who gets turned off by farting, doesn’t like it, doesn’t feel like intimacy to you, you are right too, because that’s your experience.

Abby Wambach:

I can appreciate the turnoff value. And I think that I have taken that very much to heart. But we work together. We sleep in the same bed, we live in the same house. There’s going to be stuff. I’m never on purpose trying to do something.

Glennon Doyle:

I agree with you. And I think it’s my body problems. I think it has to do with sex. I think this is all connected. If I’m a person who cannot handle body things and being human, and that’s why sex is a struggle for me. This is leaking out onto you every time you are out there bodying, I’m like, “Gross, stop bodying.” It’s all connected. I want you to be able to body, I think you’re right.

Abby Wambach:

I know, guess who you don’t shame for farting?

Glennon Doyle:

Who? The kids?

Abby Wambach:

Our children.

Glennon Doyle:

I know, because they’re angels. I think you’re right.

Amanda Doyle:

I think it has to do with body. But I think it has to do with another one of Vanessa’s huge points, which is the power of anticipation. Which is when our people are up in our faces around all the time, you know what’s going to happen, guess what you have? Zero anticipation of anything.

Abby Wambach:

No mystery, yeah.

Amanda Doyle:

Because it’s right in front of you. And so what I found totally fascinating is the data that anticipation of pleasure is equally impactful to us chemically as the actual pleasure. What? So that means that the anticipation of the extraordinary sexual encounter is as good for you and as happy for you as the actual sexual encounter. But we don’t have the power of anticipation in our lives when we’re in each other’s business all day long. And we know what’s going to happen.

Vanessa Marin:

First, I wanted to do something practical for these moments when the farting or the burping or the humaning happens. So one thing that we could do is Glennon, this is going to be your homework, is to think about what is something that Abby could say in those moments to remind you that she’s not doing it on purpose. It’s just her body doing body things. And is there something small that she could do in that moment that is a turnon to you, very small. Maybe it’s just a little wink. Maybe it’s giving you a hug-

Glennon Doyle:

So she’s going to fart and wink. She’s going to wink fart.

Vanessa Marin:

She’s going to fart. She’s going to say, “Hey, sorry about that. Just a reminder, that’s my body doing body things. I wasn’t doing it to you on purpose.” A little wink.

Abby Wambach:

Whoopsy daisies, wink face.

Vanessa Marin:

Just to bring some lightness to the moment. And then Glennon for you in the moment, your task is to remind yourself, “Hey, maybe this is my issue with bodies doing body things.” So it just a little tiny reminder for each of you in that moment, I think could bring some levity and some lightness to those situations.

Glennon Doyle:

I like it.

Vanessa Marin:

Okay, so let’s go to anticipation though. Yeah, this is incredibly fascinating research. How it was done was looking at people using slot machines. And so you would think if somebody’s using a slot machine, you would think the most pleasurable experience would be winning money. What is more pleasurable than winning free money? But actually dopamine levels, which is what gives us that feel good feeling. Dopamine levels were highest when the person was pulling the lever of the slot machine.

Vanessa Marin:

So it was actually that anticipation of, “Maybe this is going to be the time that I won the free money.” That was actually more pleasurable than the winning of the money itself. So I saw this research and I thought, “God, I think there’s a really interesting connection with sex here.” So I started thinking about, “What is it like for us to anticipate having a pleasurable experience when it comes to sex?” And this loops right back around to the questions that we started Episode 1 with, of then that makes you think about, “What is great sex to me? I have to take that time to identify what is this vision that I want to have in my head that I can use to kick in that anticipatory dopamine that’s going to get me excited.” So this is just a really simple little hack that you can use to increase desire in the moment. And it’s also a sneaky way of helping you get more familiar with your own desires and turnons.

Amanda Doyle:

I would say as the token non-expert hetero, is that up until my marriage, I can look back now and be like, “Ooh, bad sex.” All the way through. In fact, I said to my husband once, this is a sidebar, but I said, “Just want to let you know that sex with you is the best sex I’ve ever had.” To which he responded, “Thank you.” So jury’s still out. But I just want to say that I think the average hetero relationship, the woman in that relationship and possibly the men, but I don’t talk to many men, are having the exact opposite of anticipation. So it’s not only neutral, it’s dread. It is, I am getting the kids through the thing, we’re getting dinner on the table, we’re getting them to bed, and holy shit, now I know he’s going to want to have sex.

Amanda Doyle:

So it’s the opposite of that, which is why the bristle effect, “If you come hug me in the kitchen during dinner, I know where this is going. So I’ve got to shut this off right now.” We’re not only not utilizing the power of it, it’s the opposite that’s coming in.

Abby Wambach:

I have one thing I just want to ask you before we go into the next conversation. To me, desire is a very personal experience. It’s happening in me, I’m going to do things to try to express my desire for Glennon. So in terms of creating this anticipation, would you say I should be thinking about maybe our next sexual experience that we have together, in not just the things that we can do, but the experience both of us can have that could maybe cultivate desire?

Abby Wambach:

Because I do think, for a lot of women our age, we’re busy people. We’ve got kids, we’re running around. Sometimes it’s hard to cultivate desire because you’re tired and you’re busy. So is a good solution to that for me to think about, “Oh, what do I want?” And also not having a goal but having a high achievable possibility. Do you know what I’m trying to say here?

Vanessa Marin:

Yeah, so there’s a great exercise that actually didn’t make it into the book that I think could be really beneficial to talk about here. A lot of us have this idea when it comes to desire that in order to have sex, we should feel this intense, passionate need for it, “I have to have it right now.” And a lot of us have experienced that in other points of our relationship. So it can reinforce that belief of, “That’s what it’s supposed to feel like.” But if that’s the bar, that’s a really high freaking bar. Especially when you’ve had a long day, you’ve been doing a lot of stuff, you don’t have a lot of time to get yourself up to that level of enthusiasm, can feel like a lot. So one thing that I like to suggest to people is, “Can you think of other reasons why you might want to have sex?”

Vanessa Marin:

So it’s not just that I’m feeling this passion in my body, I have to have a release, but what are other reasons? Maybe it’s, “I love the way it feels after we have sex, when we’re just lying there together and we feel so close.” Maybe sometimes it’s, “I like to have an experience just being in my body and not doing, doing, doing all day long.” So if we can come up with different reasons and broaden that question so it’s not just, “Do I feel that wild, passionate, burning desire.” But, “Do I feel one of these other reasons?” That can make it feel much more doable in the moment.

Glennon Doyle:

I want to talk about initiation and then sex menus, which might be my favorite thing in the whole book. I was just watching this movie called The Last Waltz, which is so beautiful, just a couple nights ago. And the woman, character Michelle Williams keeps approaching her husband and he’s like always cooking or always has his back… And she keeps trying to invite him to sex, and he keeps, in a million teeny tiny movements and ways, rejecting her. And then she steps away finally after she’s tried so many times, not in any words but just with her body.

Glennon Doyle:

And he says something like, “You act like it’s the most courageous thing you could do to act, to initiate.” And she says something like, “It is, it’s the most courageous thing that someone could possibly do.” In relationships, the approach happens in a million tiny, tiny different ways. And then the rejection happens in a million tiny different ways. And then so often the initiator gets gaslit by that other person, “What do you mean? I didn’t reject you.” And both of you know they did, just with the turn of a shoulder. And so then there’s this galaxy between them. Talk to us about initiating and the courageousness of that.

Vanessa Marin:

It is. It’s one of the most vulnerable and intimate things that we can do, initiate sex with our partner. And this is another area where it feels easier in the beginning of our relationship, and that makes us get scared and worried about why is it so much harder as we go on. But the main reason that it can feel so hard is because you’re asking for something that you want. Going back to what Amanda was saying, that struggle, especially a lot of us women struggle to really express what it is that we want. And you’re putting yourself in the position of being turned down and hearing a “no” in any area of your life feels shitty. But hearing a no about sex when you put yourself out there feels really, really hard. And so a lot of us wind up initiating in these very subtle ways.

Vanessa Marin:

We’re trying to just tiptoe around it, or just do the bare minimum that might give my partner the sense that I’m trying to initiate, because we’re trying to avoid that vulnerability. But that just turns initiation into exactly that, that very complicated dance of, “We both know what’s going on, but nobody’s wanting to acknowledge it and it just, it’s a million tiny little paper cuts.” So instead, I think it’s important for us to all be brave and be courageous and embrace that vulnerability and be a lot more direct with our initiation. And this is where I think the piece around emotional connection comes back into it too, is to recognize for both the initiator and the person who’s receiving the initiation, what you’re really asking for in that moment is, “I want to feel close to you.”

Vanessa Marin:

So when we hear our partners say, “Want to do it?” It’s really easy. Like, “Oh God, no, I don’t want to, why are you initiating like that?” But if we can imagine that what our partner’s saying is, “I want to feel close to you right now.” That just instantly softens up how we might respond to them.

Glennon Doyle:

I’m stereotyping, but when a man says, “Want to do it?” Or you talk a lot about how sometimes people use humor to like, you call it “the boob honk” like-

Vanessa Marin:

The boob honk, yeah.

Glennon Doyle:

… someone will grab your boob. And that is so annoying. But it’s also the other person’s way of not being vulnerable. Because if I’m just half using humor, then you reject me, I can pretend it was a joke and it-

Abby Wambach:

Just kidding.

Vanessa Marin:

It’s like the baby talk voice too. “Oh, I’m not actually talking dirty or talking about sex. I’m just doing the silly baby talk voice.” We go to humor when we feel uncomfortable and nervous.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay, this is a great hot tip, pod squad, I loved this so much. You say that we only have one thing on the menu. “So when our partner initiates or says, ‘Do you want to have sex?’ It’s very confusing because you say it’s sort of asking someone to go on a trip with you. I mean maybe, but I need more details first. How long’s the trip? Where are we going? What do I need to pack? When do we leave? When are we coming back? I need more information.” This is brilliant because you suggest making a sex menu, which is like, “Do you want Taco Tuesday? Which is just quick and dirty, six minutes we’re in and out, the kids won’t even notice we’re gone.” Or are you asking for an hour long, whatever that is. Sex menus. Do people really use these?

Vanessa Marin:

Sex menus. This is some of my favorite feedback that we’ve gotten from the book so far. People are going all in on this exercise. I have received multiple pictures of actual printed out menus. Collages, laminated. I am dying seeing how excited people are getting about this.

Abby Wambach:

Can you send us those? I would like to… I just need some help.

Vanessa Marin:

Some inspiration. Yeah, so there is that, the yes, no, maybe list in the book, can be a starting point. We were talking before about, “I don’t even know what the options are.” That’s why we put that exercise in the book. Here are some of the options that you could do. So you can start there. But I love the idea of being very playful with each other and creating a handful of different menus so that instead of just initiating this, “Do you want to go on a trip?” Well, I don’t know, a weekend getaway somewhere that’s within driving distance is very different from a two-week-long European cruise.

Vanessa Marin:

So having these menus of different options of what sex looks like can make sex feel more fun, more playful. It can be very exciting to make these menus together and to talk to each other about what kind of experience feels fun and exciting to you? What are the different types of experiences that we can come up with? And then the question when you’re initiating is not just yes or no, do you want to have sex? I don’t even know what I’m saying yes or no to. It’s, “Here’s a menu of options. Would you like to select from the menu?”

Glennon Doyle:

That’s so good. And it doesn’t always just have to be about physical intimacy. I mean, the whole sex menu thing reminds me of when we’ll be upstairs and there’s lots of craziness going on before dinner and you’ll be like, “Dance with me.” I’m always like, “What?” But then it’s usually three minutes of dancing in the kitchen. That is a menu item. It’s an invitation.

Abby Wambach:

You always are horrified. You’re like, what?

Glennon Doyle:

Every time.

Abby Wambach:

And kind of scared.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, scared. Because it’s so intimate.

Abby Wambach:

It’s like, “Come on. Let’s just do it.”

Glennon Doyle:

Okay, here we go. Now we’ve moved from desire. Now we’re having a conversation about pleasure. Okay, even the word pleasure. This is a big deal for me to be saying the word “pleasure”. Pleasure, you say this is conversation about what do we each need to feel good? I appreciated so much your honesty about this in the book. Can you tell us your orgasm story, about when you and Xander were first together?

Vanessa Marin:

Yeah, I am somebody who I figured out how to orgasm on my own in my teenage years. It felt pretty straightforward, pretty exciting to me.

Glennon Doyle:

Very good job.

Vanessa Marin:

I really struggled to have an orgasm with a partner, and I actually never did. Up until I met Xander, I faked every single orgasm. I felt like something was horribly wrong with me. So it was my duty to fake it, to make sure that my partner, their ego didn’t get bruised. Sometimes it was to make them feel like, “Oh, the chemistry is so good between the two of us. I have an orgasm in two minutes of penetration.” And so I hit this breaking point. Before I met Xander, I had this awful experience having sex with somebody who bragged about how easily he was able to make me orgasm. And that was just the line in the sand for me of, “I’m not doing this anymore.”

Vanessa Marin:

So when Xander and I started being intimate, then I had this whole other experience, of now I’m trying to allow myself to receive, but I still don’t know exactly what I want, I don’t know how to describe what I need because I don’t know what it is that I need. And I noticed that, here’s this guy who seemed very kind, really funny, really sweet. We were connecting and clicking in so many ways. But when it was us having sex, he would touch me for a couple of seconds and then we’d scoot right on to having intercourse. And I kept thinking to myself, “God, this guy is really kind of all about himself. He’s not making any effort to pleasure me. He’s not even asking me, ‘Did you cum?'” And I eventually got really, really frustrated and I finally blurted out something at him. A lot of the lessons in the book were learned the hard way. Like, if I did the exact opposite thing, and I’m like-

Glennon Doyle:

I liked that about the book.

Vanessa Marin:

… I’ve learned better. But I said something up to him about, “It just feels like you don’t care at all about my experience.” And I said it in a very aggressive, mean way. I was upset. I blurted it out. And to his credit, he managed to stay really calm. And we had this conversation about orgasm. And he told me that he had had a past partner who told him, “Oh, the best thing for you to do is not really pay attention to it. Like women, sometimes we orgasm, sometimes we don’t. But just don’t ask about it. Don’t put any pressure on it. Just ignore it.” And so he really thought that he was being the nice guy, like, “Oh, this is what women want. They don’t want me to ask about it. They don’t want me to put any pressure.”

Vanessa Marin:

And it was such a fascinating experience for us. And this was really one of the first moments that I realized how important talking about sex is. Here we are having this wildly different experience. He’s thinking he’s being such a good partner. He has the cheat code to what women really want. And I’m thinking, he’s a selfish jerk, should I break up with this guy? And I very well have had we not ended up having that conversation and realizing like, “Oh, the thing that you think I need is very different from what I actually do need.”

Amanda Doyle:

Wow. And there’s so many morals from that. A, any experience with a prior partner does not necessarily-

Vanessa Marin:

Does not apply.

Amanda Doyle:

… apply to another partner. But there’s a little bit of truth in that. The whole, “I need you to come, I need you…” Like that kind of pressure. Not good because then it’s…

Vanessa Marin:

We don’t want that.

Amanda Doyle:

We don’t want that.

Abby Wambach:

I think it’s also probably really hard because I’ve been in relationships with women who I know were faking it. And I would stop and be like, “I know that you are faking. I know that that wasn’t real.” If I’m with somebody, I want you to have an orgasm every time, if that’s what you want.

Glennon Doyle:

I’m not here. I’ve gone dead inside.

Abby Wambach:

What do you mean?

Glennon Doyle:

Just I’m just envisioning… Okay.

Vanessa Marin:

This is where we get into it. This is where the silent sex queens become the talkative sex queens.

Abby Wambach:

I’m going to ask you a question. Have you ever faked an orgasm with me?

Glennon Doyle:

No.

Abby Wambach:

Okay. Because that is-

Glennon Doyle:

But that is because you told me early on that if I faked an orgasm with you, it would be absolutely devastating. So this is a thing that I have done with you. Many times, Vanessa, I’ll be like, “This just isn’t going to happen. I cannot, it’s not going to happen.” And you are fine with it. I always felt like with men, it was like some fucking ego thing or it was my duty, like it was my duty to have an orgasm with a man in the same way, it’s my duty to laugh every time they tell a fucking joke, that there is some imbalance of the universe that will happen if I don’t perform. Because this is an experience for them.

Vanessa Marin:

Orgasm can feel very performative for us. I do want to validate, it’s totally fine to not want to have an orgasm in any particular interaction. Orgasm doesn’t need to be the one and only way that we define a successful interaction.

Abby Wambach:

That’s right.

Vanessa Marin:

But I think the language here is really important. So, “It’s not going to happen.” To me, I get curious about, is there self-consciousness coming up for you? “I’m taking too long and being too much. Maybe my partner is getting tired and just wants us to move on.”

Glennon Doyle:

Yes, always.

Vanessa Marin:

Versus, if you were to say something to Abby like, “I feel satisfied now.” Or, that’s a genuine, “I’ve had a good experience. I’ve felt connected. I feel filled up. I’m satisfied. I don’t need to have an orgasm. I feel satisfied without that.” But that’s a very different-

Glennon Doyle:

What a reframe. As opposed to, I just said, “It’s not going to happen.” That’s hustle culture.

Amanda Doyle:

It’s like a disclaimer.

Vanessa Marin:

It’s also a disconnection. “It’s not going to happen.” That’s something like outside of yourself versus an, “I feel satisfied.”

Abby Wambach:

Well, because all I want is to make sure that you feel pleasure. It’s my highest priority more than even having an orgasm myself. I’m always thinking, “If we were to choose here, I’d prefer her to have pleasure and an orgasm.” But sometimes it might not necessarily happen. And that’s also okay. By the way, when you say it’s not going to happen, it doesn’t offend me. You can still use that language.

Glennon Doyle:

But I think Vanessa is right. And you know this, you say this to me all the time. It’s almost always because I feel like it’s taking too long. I always am like, “It’s taking too long. It’s taking too long.”

Abby Wambach:

It’s never, not one time. It actually is sad to me because it’s over.

Glennon Doyle:

I know, but Vanessa, I still don’t believe her when she’s-

Abby Wambach:

What?

Glennon Doyle:

I know. But I know that that’s crazy to me. Crazy. But what I’m saying to you right now, is that I still, when she says, “That’s crazy, it’s not taking too long.” I do not believe.

Abby Wambach:

So do you…

Vanessa Marin:

Okay, wait. Can we try something here?

Abby Wambach:

Yeah, help us through this.

Vanessa Marin:

Okay. I would love for Abby, I would love for you to describe to Glennon, what does it feel like for you to give pleasure to her? And what does it feel like, as time is continuing on, your time is ticking down-

Amanda Doyle:

Tick tock!

Vanessa Marin:

… what does that feel like for you? So I want Glennon just to listen to it and see what gets stirred up for you as you hear her talk about what her experience is of giving you pleasure.

Abby Wambach:

Okay. This is super personal, so I’m not sure this is going to actually make the cut, but-

Vanessa Marin:

That’s fine.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah, here I go. I think that what I am experiencing in terms of our sex and me pleasuring you and you going through the experience, is I am actually trying to, and this might sound fucking crazy, but I am trying to experience your feeling, like you’re feeling it. Because a lot of times, especially with lesbian sex, there’s one person who’s getting stimulated and one person who’s doing the stimulation.

Abby Wambach:

Obviously there’s lots of ways to have sex, but when I am stimulating you, I’m trying to experience it as if I am experiencing, I’m trying to feel how you are feeling. And that’s truly what I’m experiencing. So when you’re saying it’s taking too long, you’re cutting me off. That’s taking the experience I’m trying to transmit. I’m trying to literally experience what you’re experiencing through energetic forces. I have never, not once thought, never not once thought, “Holy fuck, hurry up here.” And so I think that that’s kind of my experience of it. And I think when your experience of sex might be this is taking too long because of the history you’ve had with sex, that is not what I’m feeling.

Abby Wambach:

Does that any of that make sense?

Vanessa Marin:

Yeah. So Abby’s saying, it’s not even that she’s saying, “It’s okay babe. I’m happy to hang in there with you.” She’s saying, “You’re cutting me off from having an experience. That’s how much I want to give to you.” So what does that feel like for you to hear, Glennon?

Glennon Doyle:

I feel like, first of all, I just cannot believe we’re talking about this. Second of all, I feel like everything that she said is true to her, which feels like new revelatory information.

Abby Wambach:

Do you actually think it’s bullshit, though?

Glennon Doyle:

No.

Abby Wambach:

Do you think I’m telling the truth?

Glennon Doyle:

Yes.

Abby Wambach:

That’s cool.

Vanessa Marin:

That’s really cool.

Glennon Doyle:

I don’t know if you understand what a big deal that is for me, but for me to believe that is a very big deal. I understand what she’s saying and it made me think, “Oh, if I’m saying it’s taking too long or it’s not going to work, it’s almost… I’m trying to not be too much, but actually it’s kind of could be insulting to her. Because I’m like, ‘You are not doing it fast enough.'”

Abby Wambach:

I never take it that way.

Glennon Doyle:

I know. But it could be…

Vanessa Marin:

Yeah, so this would be so great for you guys to repeat this a few times, and maybe even before you have sex with each other, for Abby just to take a moment to say, “Just a reminder, I want to give to you. It feels good to me. Every moment that I am giving to you is a moment of pleasure for me.” So remind that, you need that repetition for it to really sink into you Glennon, and to really internalize it. Another thing that can be helpful is, especially in the times where you’re feeling a little bit of doubt creep up, is like imagine that she is literally handing you a gift. It’s a beautiful gift, all gift wrapped, there’s a bow on it. She’s handing it over to you. And imagine yourself, “Do I want to just push that gift back at her? Do I want to ignore the gift? Or can I allow myself to take in the gift?”

Vanessa Marin:

And then for you in the moment, you’re still going to have the voice. There might be a little voice back in your head saying like, “Oh, I don’t know. It still might be too long.” Or, “I don’t know, I’m feeling uncomfortable.” But if you can find a way to distill what she said down to one phrase that you could remind yourself of in the moment. So like, “Okay, there’s that voice telling me it’s still taking too long, but let me remember her saying, ‘Giving you pleasure brings me pleasure.'” Or whatever it is. Something super short that you can remind yourself in the moment.

Glennon Doyle:

I like that in terms of even when you talked about I’m satisfied. I’m trying to learn how to eat that way, it’s not like there’s an amount that is right or too much or too little. It’s intuitively feeling like, “Is that enough for me? Am I satisfied?” So bringing that into sex, it’s just blowing my mind a little bit.

Abby Wambach:

I wonder too, because thinking about it, Vanessa, you just said something like, “Am I too much?” Your too muchness is pleasurable to me. So you’re almost withholding in some way, more of my pleasure. When you’re thinking, “Ugh, God, I’m taking too long. This is more difficult than it should be.” Or whatever the story you’re telling, you’re actually cutting me off from having the pleasure that I’m seeking in our connection. Your too muchness in your mind is what I’m in for. That’s what I’m here for.

Glennon Doyle:

Can you feel my hands, right now?

Abby Wambach:

Oh my God.

Glennon Doyle:

Vanessa, I’m going to have to change. I’m drenched. That was so beautiful and-

Vanessa Marin:

I’m very proud of you guys.

Glennon Doyle:

I feel like I do want to talk about all the people right now who are listening that are like, “Fuck you lesbians.”

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah, I got a little bit of that going on.

Glennon Doyle:

Because truly, I mean, in the book you talk a lot about orgasm and couples and all of the things about how we’ve been taught that we should all be having orgasms through vaginal penetration and how that’s not a thing. But the really tough part of the chapter for me, when thinking about all of the hetero friends that I have, or the part where you talked about the women who, the problem is not that their husbands don’t know how to give them an orgasm or that they’re faking or that whatever, is that their partners don’t care if they have an orgasm.

Glennon Doyle:

The quotes that you have about, “My husband says he doesn’t feel like taking the time to make sure I orgasm.” “My boyfriend won’t go down on me, even though that’s the only way I orgasm, because he says he doesn’t enjoy doing it.” “When my husband and I have sex, it feels very one-sided. He reaches climax and then he stops and leaves me hanging.” I mean, what the hell? What do you do then?

Vanessa Marin:

So first I do want to say that these men really are in the minority.

Amanda Doyle:

Really? That’s great to hear. That’s awesome.

Vanessa Marin:

One thing that I really want women to be able to internalize is the odds are that your partner wants to give to you the same way that Abby was just describing wanting to give to Glennon. I think that’s really hard for a lot of us to believe. But whenever I talk to men, 99% of them are like, “No, I genuinely enjoy giving. It’s not a, ‘Okay, fine, sure you can have your 10 minutes.'” It’s a, “I am getting enjoyment in every single one of these minutes, no matter how long it is.”

Vanessa Marin:

That being said, of course there are people who are selfish in the bedroom, who are really big jerks. Some of those stories that I got just absolutely shattered my heart. But for me, one of the most interesting experiences writing this book, writing it with Xander, was that we had a lot of these conversations for the first time or in a new way. And one of the things that he was sharing with me is all of the pressure that he felt growing up as a man around being good in bed. And he would tell me, “I feel like I’m always supposed to be the initiator. I’m always supposed to want it more. I’m always supposed to know exactly what to do at every step of the way. I’m supposed to pull the interaction along, be in control of it. And I’m supposed to give you this incredible jaw-dropping orgasm that no man has ever given you before.”

Vanessa Marin:

And when he first shared that, I kind of laughed like, “Okay, yeah, whatever.” And he kept saying, “No, you don’t understand. It’s very painful for me.” And he’s a very, very progressive feminist man. I didn’t expect that level of pain that he had just growing up internalizing all of that pressure. And what I came to realize is I think a lot of these stories where, of course on the surface, these men are being raging assholes, and it’s completely unacceptable to treat your partner that way. I think it’s a reaction that’s coming from a place of really deep pain and wounding. And there’s an opportunity there for both partners to realize the ways that they are in pain and the ways that they’re causing each other pain. And to have a really beautiful healing.

Vanessa Marin:

So that was actually the story that I tell at the very end of the book. One of those women who I admitted, I felt very cynical about this. I was like, “Kick this guy to the curb. Get rid of the whole man.” And she reached back out to me to share an update story of very similar dynamics coming up for him. Of all this pressure that he felt as a man and all these things that he had seen in porn and stuff he was taught by purity culture. And he learned to totally change his approach. He understood the pain that he was causing her. So I do think there’s an opportunity here for couples.

Glennon Doyle:

But only if you talk, and this is-

Vanessa Marin:

Only if you talk about it.

Glennon Doyle:

… the magic of what you’re getting people to do here. I liked how you talked about how so often one partner will fake it in order to protect, to save an ego or to save a fake peace or whatever it is. But we’re doing that at the sacrifice of our real connection. Are you actually trying to save an ego or save your relationship? Because it’s only an opportunity if we tell the truth. Vanessa, dang. Sister, did you want to say something? ‘Cause I was going to already try to get Vanessa to commit to coming back to talk to us.

Abby Wambach:

I’ve written notes on my hand.

Glennon Doyle:

You have?

Amanda Doyle:

Yeah.

Glennon Doyle:

She’s never done that before in a podcast. I really do want to ask you if you’ll come back to talk to us about fantasies. And I have so many questions and talking dirty because oh my God, I feel like you have an entire-

Vanessa Marin:

I really want to make you guys talk dirty a little bit.

Abby Wambach:

Yes!

Vanessa Marin:

Can we even do it in this episode?

Glennon Doyle:

Okay, all right, oh my God.

Abby Wambach:

Fucking yes, I am… Yes.

Amanda Doyle:

I still got to work on talking clean.

Glennon Doyle:

And then we can move to that.

Vanessa Marin:

We can start with talk… That’s where we can start. Let’s start with talking clean. But this was the thing that really got me listening to those past episodes. I was like, “We’ve got some work to do here.” So I think a lot of us, we think of talking dirty as it has to be dirty. It has to be like what you see in porn, very over the top and super explicit and corny.

Vanessa Marin:

That’s not the only way to talk dirty. It can be talking clean. But the whole point of it is being able to talk to each other during sex. That is one of the most intimate experiences to share with each other, because you have to be present in the moment with yourself, your own body, your own experience, and you have to be willing to share that with your partner. So I know it sounds big and scary, but I have a very practical exercise that we can do to ease our way into it if you guys feel comfortable with it.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay. I’m super comfortable Vanessa.

Vanessa Marin:

Okay. I want us to pick a phrase that feels straightforward and it doesn’t need to be explicit at all. Something like, “That feels good. I like that. Keep going.” Anything like that. Do you guys have a phrase that comes to mind?

Glennon Doyle:

Yep. Should we say it out loud?

Abby Wambach:

Yes.

Vanessa Marin:

Yeah.

Glennon Doyle:

Oh, we say we have to say it?

Vanessa Marin:

I mean, yeah.

Abby Wambach:

This is going to help you. This is going to help you.

Glennon Doyle:

I’ve got like three go-tos. All right, Vanessa, I’ve got-

Abby Wambach:

Wait, wait, no. Let’s do a different one.

Glennon Doyle:

“That feels good, oh my God…”

Abby Wambach:

Let’s do a different one.

Vanessa Marin:

A different one.

Abby Wambach:

Touch me there.

Vanessa Marin:

Touch me there.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay. Touch me there.

Vanessa Marin:

Does it feel like something that you want to get comfortable saying?

Abby Wambach:

Yeah, what do you want to say?

Glennon Doyle:

I mean, truthfully what I… Oh my God. What I usually want to say is, “Slow it down a little bit.”

Abby Wambach:

Thank you!

Vanessa Marin:

Oh, okay.

Abby Wambach:

This is so fucking important!

Vanessa Marin:

Okay, so what we’re going to change that around to… I love it, I’m so appreciative of you guys going there. So I talk a lot about feedback in the book. We’re going to turn it around into, “I want you to slow down.” Turn it into, “It feels so good when you go slow.”

Glennon Doyle:

Okay. It feels so good when you go slow.

Vanessa Marin:

Okay. So this is what we’re going to do. Is first I just want you to say that a few times out loud, and you can look away from Abby. You can close your eyes, whatever you want to do to make yourself more comfortable. But just repeat that phrase. And let yourself laugh. Be awkward. Get the giggles out. But just repeat it until you’re going to feel this moment where it kind of sinks in a little bit. Like, “Okay, that wasn’t so bad.”

Glennon Doyle:

Okay. So you want me to say that out?

Abby Wambach:

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay. And so for most people, are they saying it to a million and a half people who are listening to… Okay, it’s fine Vanessa. It feels so good when you go slow. It feels so good when you go slow. It feels so good when you go slow.

Vanessa Marin:

Don’t look at her yet.

Glennon Doyle:

Nope. It feels so good when you go slow.

Vanessa Marin:

Just keep going. You can close your eyes. You can look away. But just keep repeating it.

Glennon Doyle:

It feels so good when you go slow. Okay, I’ve got it. I’ve got it.

Vanessa Marin:

Do it one more time.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay. It feels so good when you go slow.

Vanessa Marin:

Okay. And say it even slower. Just do it one more time.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay, it feels so good when you go slow.

Vanessa Marin:

Okay. Does that feel more comfortable or you want a few more repetitions?

Glennon Doyle:

I just think since I’m on a podcast, I’m not going to feel fully comfortable, but I think we’ve gotten to the threshold of comfortability that I’m going to reach.

Vanessa Marin:

Okay. So now can you and Abby look at each other. And I want you guys to go back and forth saying the phrase, so Abby, you’re going to say it too. And again, when you say it at first, giggle, it’s okay. Be silly, laugh about it, look away, close your eyes. Whatever you need to do, but just keep repeating it and you’re just going to go one person at a time going back and forth. Just keep repeating it until it starts to, you get that sinking and feeling of like, “Okay, that felt a little bit easier.”

Glennon Doyle:

Okay. It feels so good when you go slow.

Abby Wambach: