How to Let Go of Perfection this Holiday
December 20, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Hi, everybody. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things during the most time of the year. Not necessarily the most wonderful time of the year, just the most time of the year, where everything is just ratcheted up a few notches.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. So our goal today and our intention is to bring us all together and just ratchet us down a few notches.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, ratchet us…
Glennon Doyle:
Okay?
Abby Wambach:
Well, sister’s not doing a good job at that because she came onto the podcast looking fire today.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, she just is so beautiful.
Abby Wambach:
Just your hair is just on point. And I know I’m not supposed to objectify you-
Glennon Doyle:
I think we can talk about her hair. Sister, you’re so beautiful.
Abby Wambach:
You really are.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay. This is a-
Abby Wambach:
You have a glow. You have a glow about you and I just don’t know where it comes from.
Glennon Doyle:
Are you pregnant?
Abby Wambach:
Oh?
Amanda Doyle:
I would not be glowing if that was case. Do you know what I realized this week?
Glennon Doyle:
What?
Amanda Doyle:
I am always… I have blow dried my hair. Blow dry? Blow dries?
Abby Wambach:
Who knows what that is?
Glennon Doyle:
Blown it dry.
Abby Wambach:
It’s blew dried or blowed?
Amanda Doyle:
I blew it. I blew it?
Glennon Doyle:
The blew part is the verb. So you blew dry your hair?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, you’re going to conjugate-
Amanda Doyle:
I dried it with an air dryer.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Like six times in my life prior to this week because I just never knew. That’s why the beginning, remember we do these clips and people would say, “Why is Amanda’s hair always wet in the clips?”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And that’s because I would’ve taken a shower because if I take a shower, my hair’s wet because I don’t know how to dry it.
Amanda Doyle:
I did it randomly last week because it was freezing outside.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And it’s easy!
Glennon Doyle:
It makes a big difference.
Amanda Doyle:
I’ve gone 43 years just thinking it was something impossibly hard that I would never be able to do.
Glennon Doyle:
That only happens at the salon.
Amanda Doyle:
And I just did it!
Glennon Doyle:
It can only happen there.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
And speaking of the person who has the most agency, I don’t know, another person knows more agency than you. This is hysterical.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. She could make-
Amanda Doyle:
Well, it’s not my lane.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, she could make world peace happen, but she can’t make-
Abby Wambach:
She could make a blow dryer.
Glennon Doyle:
… Blow dryer, she could make a blow dryer.
Abby Wambach:
She could market a blow dryer, she could sell a fucking blow dryer, she just can’t use a blow dryer, folks, until now.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m amazed by it. It turns out you could just do it. I always just assumed it would take an hour and I was like, “I don’t value that outcome at an hour cost to me.”
Glennon Doyle:
Right, exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
“So the ROI doesn’t work for me.” But it turns out it can be done in six minutes? Totally different ROI.
Glennon Doyle:
I’d like to note that I think a little bit we’re having opposite revolutions, Sister?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes, that’s correct.
Glennon Doyle:
I am having a revolution of “Fuck it” with all of the things. No, really. I don’t want to wear clothes, I don’t want to do my hair, I’m not wearing makeup. I’m just stopping all of that.
Glennon Doyle:
And your revolution is a little bit that you’re starting all that. Because if I’m not mistaken, and I mean, this with great respect, I don’t think you showered for four years.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. I think the bigger truth here is that there is no free way, there’s no liberated way.
Glennon Doyle:
Correct.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s just each person’s path. Because I think your path is attending less to yourself in the regard of-
Glennon Doyle:
Outer.
Amanda Doyle:
… appearances, outer, et cetera.
Amanda Doyle:
Me, I never paid any regard to myself in that way. So my revolution might be like, “Oh you can actually do the treat for yourself of occasionally changing out of the clothes you slept in.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I think it might have a little bit to do with the time of life that both of you’re in terms of children.
Glennon Doyle:
Right, right.
Abby Wambach:
You now have gone through the time where you don’t have small children anymore. Sister is just now getting out of small children’s stage where you’re just survival mode for those first many years.
Abby Wambach:
And it’s like, “Do I have time for showering? No I don’t. I’m going to go to sleep because I need sleep more than anything else.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
I think it’s like you’re remembering that you are your own person and you’re trying to feel into that. And you’ve gone through that stage because our kids are a little older.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And I love the idea of everybody’s next step is different. We can all be moving forward in our evolution and they can be opposite things.
Glennon Doyle:
I remember a decade ago, I was standing in a line at Marshalls and if anyone has ever stood in a line at a Marshalls, you know that you age there, right?
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, just-
Glennon Doyle:
You spent the year there and I was-
Amanda Doyle:
Marshalls and Ross Dress for Less.
Glennon Doyle:
Ross Dress for Less.
Amanda Doyle:
I just-
Glennon Doyle:
Home Goods.
Amanda Doyle:
When I think of my childhood, it’s going to be like Mom, dad, you, our cats, and Marshalls and Ross Dress or Less.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. That’s right. We spent so many years in that line.
Glennon Doyle:
And I remember about a decade ago, I was standing in that line and there was a woman in front of me and this dude cut. And she and I ended up having this conversation and this is what we realized. In that moment, she was trying to work up the nerve to say something to that guy. Because that was her next step to get up the fire, to get up the gumption or moxie or whatever, to say something.
Glennon Doyle:
I was struggling equally internally and I was trying to get the inner peace to not knock that guy out.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Her next step was try to be more lion and my next step was try to be more lamb. And we were both moving in the right direction with opposite outcomes, which is why you can’t ever judge what somebody else is doing. Because their next step might be the absolute opposite of what progress is for yours.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
I’m lying-
Amanda Doyle:
There’s no linear liberation. You’re finding yourself on the loop that you’re in.
Amanda Doyle:
The exact same thing happened to me this weekend. I was out with John, eating dinner. We got almost to the end and he goes, “I just cannot believe that you have not said anything about that woman who’s over there on her phone during the whole dinner.”
Glennon Doyle:
Oh!
Amanda Doyle:
And he was like, “Honestly, I have never seen such a thing out of you.” Because usually, I’ll see something and it will upset me so much. And I’m like-
Glennon Doyle:
Totally.
Amanda Doyle:
“And she’s there with her partner and oh my God, do you think they have talked to each other? Do you think they hate each other?”
Amanda Doyle:
Then, I was like, “Well, now I can’t be annoyed because you pointed out to me.” But always, I would identify every single thing in the room that there was to be annoyed about.
Glennon Doyle:
We’re hypervigilant.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
We’re hypervigilant because of lots of things.
Amanda Doyle:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
So what do you attribute that to?
Abby Wambach:
I was going to ask that.
Glennon Doyle:
And were you actually really thinking about that woman the whole time and you-
Amanda Doyle:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
Whoa.
Amanda Doyle:
I don’t know.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, what is this?
Amanda Doyle:
I don’t know.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh Sissy, I’m happy for you and for John.
Amanda Doyle:
TBD. TBD on this.
Glennon Doyle:
Because what happens with our hypervigilance is, it ruins that person we’re with’s experience because they’re worried that we’re worried about the person on the phone. Everybody’s life is ruined, yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh. So what I’m experiencing a little bit with Glennon now is with some of her therapy she’s going through, I’m looking at her less, I’m less attuned because she is less vigilant. What John was doing is, he’s looking at you being like, “Oh, when is this going to happen? When is she going to say something?”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
“Why? This is weird. Why hasn’t she said something?” And so it’s going to take some time for him to unwind from your anxiety or vigilance in those social scenarios.
Amanda Doyle:
You mean we’re not pissed about this? We’re not?
Abby Wambach:
Yes!
Amanda Doyle:
Oh? We’re not pissed about this!
Abby Wambach:
I know! It’s amazing.
Amanda Doyle:
Amazing!
Abby Wambach:
I feel that way very much right now with you. I’m like, “Oh, I can just be here.” I don’t have to be worrying about your experience and how I need to matrix this up for us.
Glennon Doyle:
So we’re both doing that thing-
Abby Wambach:
What’s going on?
Glennon Doyle:
… where we’re trying to become less controlling of our environments, so that we can enjoy life and everyone else can who loves us.
Glennon Doyle:
So there’s one thing that happened with me in therapy yesterday that I wanted to share because I feel like it might help everybody at the holiday season. Okay?
Amanda Doyle:
Great.
Glennon Doyle:
So I am in therapy, pretty intense therapy, again, which I’ll explain to all of you in January. I want to give myself a little bit more time. But I have this amazing, new therapist who I love very much. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Hi, therapist.
Amanda Doyle:
I know. Thank you to all the therapists, by the way.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you, thank you.
Amanda Doyle:
Love you.
Glennon Doyle:
The first responders of the world.
Glennon Doyle:
So I’m in therapy yesterday. Now my therapist is a genius and a wise, wise woman. Also, she’s a little bit like me where she lives on a bit of a different plane.
Glennon Doyle:
So she has tried to listen to a couple of our podcasts but she doesn’t know where they are because they’re in the cloud or something. So she says to me, “Can you send me some of your podcasts?” And I say, “Sure.” But obviously, I don’t know how to send her a podcast. I don’t know where they are. I don’t know where they live. So I just ignore that request.
Glennon Doyle:
So yesterday, I get on therapy and she says, “So I found one of your podcasts. I listened and it was great.” And she was very kind about it. Then she said, “I noticed…” she didn’t say this word, but what I’m going to translate to buzzy energy, “I noticed your energy.” What she was trying to explain to me is that she noticed that a little bit hyper, high level energy, anxiety that is not just pure energy. It’s a little bit fear-based or something. I don’t know. Buzzy, high energy. Yes. Yeah. Like performing maybe energy? Anxiety energy, buzzy energy, not calm energy. And I thought that was interesting. So we talked about that for a little while.
Glennon Doyle:
Then she asked me if I’ve been noticing that energy again in my life. And I ended up starting to talk about Christmas. I said this time last holiday was a huge rock bottom for me.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
A lot went down. I mean, the holidays man, it’s like everything you love… I don’t know, it’s the most time of the year. There’s more reflection, there’s more distraction, there’s more grief. If you’ve had grief, there’s more expectation of joy. It’s like forced joy and if you’re not feeling joy, then you’re the worst. Anyway-
Abby Wambach:
And perfection.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah! And perfection, right.
Glennon Doyle:
So she was asking me why I feel all of this buzzy energy, stress, anxiety in the holidays. And I explained to her that since the family comes to me, that since I’m a mom, I feel like this is my thing to host and make perfect and make beautiful and make it the best thing ever, and every year has to be the best Christmas ever. I had just said it has to be the best thing. I’m making this big thing.
Glennon Doyle:
And she said, “What if you are the thing?”
Abby Wambach:
You are.
Glennon Doyle:
And I was like, “What?” She goes, “What if on the podcast, with your family, when you’re on a stage speaking, when you’re writing, when you’re with your kids getting ready for Christmas, what if you are the thing? What if you don’t have to constantly buzzy prepare up, perfect? What if the thing isn’t the perfect presents and the perfect whatever And what if in obsessing about creating that thing… Or you on the podcast, nailing it, saying the perfect thing, getting all the words out right, making all your points. What if that’s not the thing? What if just your presence is the thing? And all of that buzzy energy in perfecting the thing actually means that you’re not there at all, and the thing isn’t even there.”
Amanda Doyle:
Well, that’s fascinating. If that’s the case, then theoretically, that would work in an ecosystem where everyone was allowed just to be their thing, right?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes!
Amanda Doyle:
Because presumably, if you’re the thing then your daughter’s the thing, then Abby’s the thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Everyone’s the thing. And as long as everyone is permitted to be their own thing, then everyone can just enjoy and be.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And, when you bring extended family… My family comes, our parents come, there’s descending on you a whole bunch of other dynamics that presupposes that you can just remain being your thing, even with those influences present.
Amanda Doyle:
So if I could take a wild stab in the dark, I think part of the energy comes from your inherent knowing that what your therapist said is true and your defensiveness of, “I’m not going to let your influence rattle the preciousness of this thing.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes!
Glennon Doyle:
I think that there has to be a third way. Because if my anxiety is, “You’re going to be different…” You’re going to be different than what? I’ve created this perfect Christmas or this perfect holiday, which does not include you being you.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s that thing we get back to on this podcast over and over again, which is the thing that screws us up most is the picture in our head of how it’s supposed to be. The thing that screws up our holidays is the picture in our head of how it’s supposed to be. So the reason why you, extended family, when you come and you be yourself and I’m upset, is because you’re not matching what I decided this holiday was going to be.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
So maybe the gift we give ourselves is just burning the picture. And the only thing that I know for sure… I just feel like the reason that I try so hard to control environments and you try to control the environments, is because we don’t feel safe in our own bodies. We create these safe, outer things because we don’t know how to be safe inside ourselves. And I don’t know exactly what I’m saying.
Abby Wambach:
I kind of do.
Glennon Doyle:
But do you? There has do to be a third way where-
Abby Wambach:
It’s like what you’re doing with the holiday expectation is, you’re holding holidays in the palm of your hand, but you are just making the hardest fist going, “Everybody needs to be and do this holiday perfect.” Instead of just opening it up and having it all in the palm of your hand.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Going, “Everybody gets to be here and experience this holiday.” And we have to make the holiday what it is.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
You can’t make exactly Christmas what it is. I think that that’s what caused so much suffering last year is we moved to a new house, we moved to a new place, we tried to make it this beautiful, outrageous experience.
Glennon Doyle:
We thought, “We’re all going to get along, everyone’s going to be happy.”
Abby Wambach:
“It’s going to be perfect.”
Glennon Doyle:
Everyone’s…
Abby Wambach:
And then it wasn’t.
Glennon Doyle:
Everybody is just who they are, always, including me.
Abby Wambach:
Yes, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
So there has to be room for everybody to be who they are and everything to be what it is. And this idea that I can prepare my way to perfection ruins it for me and for everybody else.
Glennon Doyle:
Because what always happens in our family is that then everybody feels my energy of like, “I need this to be perfect” and then everyone walks on eggshells and I don’t want that this holiday.
Glennon Doyle:
So what I think I’m thinking is, “I am the thing,” and if I’m going to believe that, then I also have to also know that you are the thing.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
And Chase is the thing and Tish is the thing and Amma’s the thing, Dad is the thing, Mom is the thing, Craig is the thing, Abby is the thing.
Glennon Doyle:
All of these things just have to coexist without trying to control or change each other. It’s like… Right?
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like a sturdiness to me.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes!
Amanda Doyle:
I think it’s a sturdiness. Because I think when you grow up as a matter of survival, you’re not sturdy in your own way, you’re adapting to the needs around you. You are acclimating and placating. Then as you grow up, you think you’re not acting according to the dictates of your family of origin, but you actually are, because you’re acting in direct opposition to them.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like when you say that rebellion is just as much of a cage-
Glennon Doyle:
As obedience.
Amanda Doyle:
… as obedience.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes!
Amanda Doyle:
It’s if you’re rebelling against that, then you are still not sturdy because you are waving this flag of, “This is not how we do it! And this is how we do it! And I will defend the rights of this family to do it a different way!”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
But that’s not sturdy, that’s not peaceful.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Amanda Doyle:
And I think what you’re saying is, when you say perfection, you don’t mean, so the bows are all made of satin and everything is glittery.
Amanda Doyle:
I think your idea of perfection is that we can be sturdy in our peace and our joy throughout this regardless of anybody else in this ecosystem and what they’re operating from. That we can let them be them and we can maintain the sturdiness of our own peace. And that is the goal.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I think for the rest of my life. I seriously think that this holiday and what I’m working on in therapy is this new phase of life. Which, it’s so fascinating to me because for some reason, the big metaphors in my books are often about yoga.
Glennon Doyle:
In Love Warrior, the big life metaphor for me was, “I can stay in this room.” Like this hot yoga, and I was like, “No matter what happens in here, I’m going to stay. I’m going to stay. I’m melting, but I’m going to stay on this damn mat.” And that was my twenties and thirties.
Glennon Doyle:
Then in Untamed, the metaphor was, “Oh, I can just pick up my mat and leave this room. I don’t have to be in this hot room anymore with these people. The doors aren’t even locked.”
Amanda Doyle:
The door isn’t even locked. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. “I can stand up and walk out of here. I don’t have to put up with this shit. I’m free.”
Glennon Doyle:
Then I was telling Abby I was in yoga again a month ago or something and I was in this room and there was this love bug of an instructor from the East Coast and she just was doing very serious, hard things. And I thought, “This is not how we do it here, but okay.” It was very hard. So at first I was trying to keep up and my body was like, “No, no, no, no.” So then, I was like, “Okay, I’m just going to leave.” And then, I was like, “I don’t have to leave. I can stay in this room, get my experience of yoga, which is just sit here and breathe. I don’t have to do the things that anyone else is doing here.” I mean, it’s a little weird, it’s a little embarrassing to just sit on your mat and not do anything while the East Coast instructor’s yelling to do things.
Abby Wambach:
I think it’s funny that you’re East Coasting, West Coasting there.
Glennon Doyle:
I just felt like the energy of that. And I sat on my mat and just did nothing and breathed for 20 minutes and I didn’t have to leave and it was a sturdiness. I had no boundaries and I just was, “Just tough it out, do the thing forever.” Then, I was like, “Oh, I don’t have to stay here. I’m out of here.” And now, I’m like, “I can stay and be me.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s the next step, and that’s what I want to do this Christmas.
Glennon Doyle:
Because I’ve walked out of so many things. I’ve boundaried myself out of connection and out of peace because I’m always trying to make myself safe. I’m always trying to make myself safe from other people. Like safe from food, safe from people, safe from dynamics, safe from the past, safe from whatever.
Glennon Doyle:
But what if I can be safe where I am?
Abby Wambach:
Is that the final frontier for you?
Glennon Doyle:
I think so.
Abby Wambach:
Is to just be able to be yourself wherever you are?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And let other people be themselves wherever I am.
Amanda Doyle:
I think when you grow up like us, it’s like, “Are they okay? Are they okay?” And your whole life is oriented towards, “What do I need to do to make them okay? Okay, they’re okay. They’re okay. If they’re okay, we’re okay. It’s okay.” Because you’re not really okay. But that’s not the question you’re asking yourself. You’re asking, “Are they okay?”
Amanda Doyle:
Then you grow up and then you’re like, “Am I okay?” You used to police everything you did to make sure they were okay. Then your second step is you’re policing everything they do.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes!
Amanda Doyle:
Because you’re like, “Am I okay? Is this okay with me? This is not okay.” Now I have to be like, “That’s not okay and let me tell you what’s not okay. And we don’t do it this way in this house,” not so much with your words but with your energy.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
“Am I okay?”
Amanda Doyle:
And then the third place is, “I am okay.”
Abby Wambach:
Damn.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
And it doesn’t matter. I’m going to be okay. You’re going to have to make sure you’re okay because I’m not doing that job anymore. And I’m no longer asking if what you are doing is going to impact if I’m okay.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
My job is to be okay.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
It’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
So, having said all that-
Abby Wambach:
Thanks for sharing that all.
Abby Wambach:
Because I think when you say things out loud, it really helps orient the person you want to be. And I’ve noticed a big shift that’s happening in you and it’s beautiful.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you, love. It affects everything. It’s obviously so seen in the holiday thing, but it is very much how I do everything.
Glennon Doyle:
I show up for work or the podcast or anything, thinking, “I have to deliver the thing.” It’s this buzzy energy that always shows up when I think, “I’m not good enough.” So I have to prepare this self that will show up. Which is why, talked to my therapist about this… Which is why I have always been like, “I have to quit soon.”
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like that thing that somebody said to me early on in my career in New York. I was supposed to go into this scary meeting with these scary people and I said, “What am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to say?” And Whitney said, “You just have to go in there and be yourself.” And I said to Whitney, “I don’t know how much longer I can keep that up.”
Glennon Doyle:
So this idea of, “What if…” Oh my god, if I could just go…
Glennon Doyle:
I saw my daughter. Tish had her first musical-
Abby Wambach:
Live performance.
Glennon Doyle:
She had a concert she had her first life performance at the Troubadour in Hollywood. A week before the performance, I was like, “Okay, so do you want to get your outfit ready? What are you going to wear?” She looked at me like, “What?” And I was like, “I mean, do you want to go get your outfit ready? Do you want to blah, blah, blah?”
Glennon Doyle:
She was like, “No?” She was confused about the question.
Abby Wambach:
She’s like, “I’ll think about it the morning.” Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
She’s like, “I’ll just decide that morning and I’m probably just going to wear my flannel.” I was like, “Okay.”
Glennon Doyle:
I watched this child, 16-year-old girl, before the concert… We got to the thing, I was buzzy energy-
Amanda Doyle:
Oh my God.
Glennon Doyle:
… like, “Holy shit, how is she going to do this?” Crowd there, she’s 16 years old, she’s never played before on stage. It’s the Troubadour. There’s all these other acts because it’s this combo thing. A lot of these other acts are costumed up, they are background singers, there are people, there are whatever. Performances.
Glennon Doyle:
Tish’s energy is just… You were there, Sister. You were there.
Amanda Doyle:
I’ve never seen anything like it.
Glennon Doyle:
No. Her energy was just the same as it always is. She was a little bit lighthearted, a little bit serious. Steady, steady. I was like, “How is she maintaining this energy?”
Amanda Doyle:
She was sturdy. She was sturdy as shit.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. We’re all up in this balcony part looking down. She’s about to go on. We’ve got Chase on FaceTime at college. She steps onto the stage. She’s wearing her Docs, her drip jeans, her flannel that she wears every other day. Her hair is exactly the same as it is every day. She doesn’t have a touch of makeup on. She’s exactly her.
Glennon Doyle:
She stands up there with her guitar and she opens up her mouth and she just gets spiritually naked on stage. Her voice is like shattered crystal. She’s the realest thing I’ve ever seen on stage, the realest, most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen on stage. And she’s exactly who she is when she’s on our couch and no one’s there.
Glennon Doyle:
And then she stepped off stage. The crowd is going crazy because people lose their minds when they see the truth, when they are in the presence of presence and not a performance but a revelation. She wasn’t performing, she was revealing herself. And the crowd went crazy. We were stunned.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And we went to her after. Of course, we were buzzing like nobody’s business. We didn’t know what she was until we saw her on stage.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
We didn’t know. And she was completely steady afterwards. She wasn’t even buzzing afterwards.
Glennon Doyle:
We had seen this thing happen that we were so stunned by and she was so steady. She was happy, but she wasn’t surprised.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
She wasn’t surprised. I said, “Aren’t you freaking out? What just happened? Look at them! The crowd is freaking out!” And she goes, “Well, I knew that was going to happen.”
Glennon Doyle:
And then she carried on with her day. And I looked at her and I thought, “If I could do life like that, if I could not lose myself to do my job, if I could be the same everywhere and not assign more importance to any one moment than the other, just show up and be myself everywhere, I could do this my whole life.”
Abby Wambach:
Well, I guess the question I have is, what do you think the reasons are that you have carried on this way for so long? What’s the root of it? What’s the truthy truth inside of it? The worthiness part.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s it. It has to be not thinking you’re good enough, not really believing that I’m good enough to just show up as me. But it’s not knowing who me is for so long, too.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s the mysterious, could it be of this therapy time and this time of my life, is, “What if it is true, that I could just show up as me?”
Glennon Doyle:
And by the way, this is what it’s all changed, not dressing up, not wearing makeup. All of this is part of the experiment.
Abby Wambach:
Sure. I think it’s really interesting that you’ve raised three children to look inside of themselves for their worthiness. And it’s something that you’ve been chasing maybe your whole life. I think it’s really fascinating.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I can look inside myself and what I find is 49 hours of preparation. I look inside myself. I just find a lot of hustle.
Glennon Doyle:
Anyway, I think it’s awesome that I’m not going to get too Jesusy with my Christmas talk right now, but one of my favorite Christmas carols is the whole, “Prepare him room” one.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
And heaven and nature sing.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you, Sissy.
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm.
Glennon Doyle:
And I just love, I keep thinking about this, all the stories about they showed up at the inn and there was no room. They showed up at the doors, here or there and there and there was no room. There’s no room, there’s no room, there’s no room.
Glennon Doyle:
And I just think this holiday about that and about how in our preparation for perfection, we leave no room for what is. And we don’t leave any room for our own peace. And we don’t leave room for our people to be themselves. We just squeeze everybody out of the picture so that we can make this perfect picture of what somebody told us it’s supposed to be.
Glennon Doyle:
So I just think this holiday, maybe we just burn the picture and we just prepare room for it to be what it is. And if you’ve had loss this year and you have grief, then you just make room for that. And if you have had divorce and you have had death and you have had pain, and there’s room for all of that.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
The idea of Christmas is that everybody else was looking for this king in all the shiny places and the joy and the peace and the beauty was in the most unexpected, dark corner.
Glennon Doyle:
So I think my prediction is, that when we leave room for ourselves and our people and what is, that the magic just comes and we don’t have to force it.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
There’s also a cost to that pursuit of perfection that we are very aware of now.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Abby Wambach:
There’s a real cost to you, to the experience. It doesn’t make it shinier. It just makes it muddled.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
I think that part of, especially I would venture to guess, a lot of the folks listening to this are folks like us who have been conscripted into hustle army.
Amanda Doyle:
And who, if things aren’t going well, we think it’s because we’re not enough. And if things are going well, we think it’s because we are kicking our own asses. And if we want things to keep going well, we better sure as shit keep kicking our own asses.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Because we are making it happen.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And I think the “Prepare room” is a little bit like, “What if not?”
Amanda Doyle:
What if we could have some ease and have joy?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
What if we could have these beautiful careers and make time to blow dry our hair? What if we could be with our parents and keep our peace?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Damn.
Amanda Doyle:
What if there’s room for all of it?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. What if it’s not our martyrdom that is making the world go around?
Amanda Doyle:
There’s a little bit of a Christmas message in that.
Glennon Doyle:
There is!
Amanda Doyle:
That we are not our own Messiah.
Glennon Doyle:
Right, right. Or our family’s Messiah.
Glennon Doyle:
Joy to the world there’s a different god, and it’s not us.
Glennon Doyle:
So that is our holiday message.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And by the way, I’m not just thinking this, I’m doing it. I told the kids, everybody’s getting a third of the presents they usually get. They said-
Amanda Doyle:
Which, thank you, baby Jesus, for calling that rule. That’s the best thing that ever happened to me.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Yeah, it’s done-
Amanda Doyle:
Four gifts for a kid, it’s amazing. That’s the best thing you’ve ever done for our family.
Glennon Doyle:
It was a month ago that I was like, “Tell us a few things you want.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Then I bought the things and then it’s done.
Abby Wambach:
And just so those listening know, there was instant panic on children’s faces, and it has since gone away. Because they, too, understand that excessive presents is, in fact, ridiculous and so it-
Amanda Doyle:
Well, life is just expectations.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
Once you set your expectations-
Abby Wambach:
Yes!
Amanda Doyle:
… you get on board.
Glennon Doyle:
And they’re fine with it.
Amanda Doyle:
Whether it’s 30 gifts, you’re going to wish it was 40.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s four gifts, you’re going to wish it was 10. It doesn’t matter.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
They’re always going to wish for more.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Abby Wambach:
They refined their gift choices then. They were like, “Oh, I got to whittle this down. I got to prioritize here.”
Glennon Doyle:
And then they’re not spending their entire December just wanting things, making up wants to have so they can tell me what they are. I’m going to put a big bow on my forehead and I’m going to say, “My presence is your present.”
Amanda Doyle:
“I am it.”
Glennon Doyle:
“I am it.”
Abby Wambach:
“I am it.”
Glennon Doyle:
You thought presents were the thing, but my therapist told me, kids, “I am the thing.”
Abby Wambach:
You are.
Glennon Doyle:
You are welcome.
Abby Wambach:
You are. You are the greatest present to all of us.
Glennon Doyle:
You are such a love.
Abby Wambach:
And you are too, Sister.
Glennon Doyle:
Pod Squad-
Amanda Doyle:
You are too, Abby.
Glennon Doyle:
You are too, baby. We love you.
Abby Wambach:
Well, we all know that.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, that’s true.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, standard.
Glennon Doyle:
We are so grateful to you, Pod Squad, for doing life with us. We actually are going to come back on Thursday with beautiful and brutiful holiday stories from you and we’re going to celebrate together. We love you, Pod Squad. Bye.