Couples Therapy: The Tools You Need with Dr. Orna Guralnik

November 15, 2022

Glennon Doyle:

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today, we have a very special, to us, to Abby and me, and to a lot of the world, Dr. Orna Guralnik. She is a psychoanalyst and writer who serves on the faculty of NYU Postdoc, National Institute for the Psychotherapies, The Steven Mitchell Center, and the editorial boards of Psychoanalytic Dialogues and Studies in Gender and Sexuality. Her writing centers on the intersection of psychoanalysis, dissociation, and cultural studies. She has completed the filming of four seasons of the docuseries, Couples Therapy, airing on Showtime.

Abby Wambach:

Oh my God, that’s my favorite.

Glennon Doyle:

I know. Abby and I watch, just wrapped, wrapped. We love the show. We love the couples on the show, and how they work things out or don’t, and we truly are enamored with you.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Oh-

Glennon Doyle:

Yes.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

… thank you. Wonderful to hear.

Glennon Doyle:

I know that a lot of people have become enamored with you and it’s a very interesting phenomenon and I know that’s not what you’re most comfortable with. You’re there to show the work.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

True. Exactly, true.

Glennon Doyle:

True.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Yes.

Glennon Doyle:

But before we start, I do need to tell you that Abby just found the things that I have Googled about you. I have Googled what kind of dog does Orna have, does Orna take new clients? Where are Orna’s sweaters from, where do I get Orna’s scarves, articles about how Orna listens like that, and how is Orna so calm?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

I’m speechless.

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah. The calmness, I would just love to start out with because it makes me think of this part I read in My Grandmother’s Hands by Resmaa Menakem, where he says something like, “They think they’re coming to me for answers, but they really come to sit with someone who has a settled nervous system.” Does that ring any bell with you?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Rings many bells. DW Winnicott talked about the containing environment. He talked about it more as sort of the maternal environment, the responsibility of the maternal environment to provide for the fussy infant. Where if you provide a containing, present environment for someone who’s fussy, their nervous system will calm down, they’ll have the space to make sense of their own experience. In a certain way, I guess you could think of the analyst’s role as doing that. That’s one of their roles is to simply provide an environment in which the other person can sort out what’s going on with them. My own, what you’re calling my calmness, it is the result of many years in analysis myself.

Abby Wambach:

Ah.

Glennon Doyle:

Oh, that’s interesting. The show, it takes these fussy people, we’re all fussy.

Abby Wambach:

Mm-hmm fussy.

Glennon Doyle:

We’re fussy as hell and then they sit and they wait in that little hallway, which is like the purgatory, the fussy purgatory.

Abby Wambach:

I love that place.

Glennon Doyle:

The canal, right?

Abby Wambach:

What happens there-

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

The canal.

Abby Wambach:

… is so good.

Glennon Doyle:

The canal and then they’re birthed into your room and the room, it’s a womb. The pup and the little dog bed and the colors in there and your soft sweaters.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Aw, I love this description.

Glennon Doyle:

It’s so beautiful and we feel it when we watch, right?

Abby Wambach:

Yeah.

Glennon Doyle:

It’s like we finish our fussy day and our fussy arguments and then when we turn it on, when we get to your room, in the hallway, we’re stressed because they’re still fussing. Those couples are still fussing and that’s why in the hallway they have the little puzzles so they can stop bitching at each other and they can just focus on their puzzles. Then there’s some magic that happens in that room. Therapy can be expensive and hard to access, right?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Yes.

Glennon Doyle:

Let’s say you had several minutes with millions of people who are listening and would love some of that womb in their own fussy houses. What would you say to them that might be most helpful to people trying to figure out… How would you democratize therapy in a few minutes?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Wow, that’s a good one. First of all, yes, therapy, historically, it’s been kind of an expensive thing that differentiates, that follows a certain kind of class system in terms of who can and cannot have access. Now, hopefully that is changing. That’s one of the objectives of our show, of the series, but it’s also changing in the psychoanalytic world at large. People are more and more aware of needing to find ways to democratize therapy and a lot of really interesting initiatives going on in that respect. But if I had to try to put together some words that would serve as a very preliminary kind of container about couples, I would say that it would be great for people to think of both the challenge and beauty of their couplehood as the challenge of dealing with otherness. We don’t connect to our partners to find ourselves. I mean, what’s the point? That’s not interesting. There’s no growth in that. There’s nothing new in that. There’s nothing to be had by just having a relationship just with oneself. That’s just narcissism, which leads nowhere.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

This thing that we do, which is that we reach out towards the world and fall in love and want to connect with someone else, means we are inviting otherness into our lives and that is important. That is the thorn that will make you grow, that will make you heal, and go beyond yourself. That’s the journey, the journey is to negotiate otherness. In the crisis that always gets created between a couple, it’s always ultimately a crisis about otherness. How do you deal with the fact that your partner is different from you? It’s what you need and it’s what you will struggle with. It’s in a way you could imagine it that you’re creating your own mini political system. What kind of political system do you believe in? What are your ethics about difference? Try to have that guide you.

Abby Wambach:

Holy shit.

Glennon Doyle:

That’s interesting. We need to become more political system, less evangelists for our own way.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Love it. Exactly. Yes.

Amanda Doyle:

Isn’t that interesting because when you think about the otherness, it either leads to this pattern of kind of righteous, I am correct, and you are wrong blame cycle or it leads to I see that you’re other and incorrect and therefore, I have married the wrong person.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Well, those two are kind of the same way of thinking.

Amanda Doyle:

Right.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

They’re both one is right, one is wrong and you need to either squash difference or get rid of difference, but none of that involves opening up to difference and figuring out how do you live with difference? How do you live with both understanding who you are and who your partner is and figuring out a third way that will involve both.

Glennon Doyle:

A third way, we just need a Disney movie. We need a Disney movie where the princesset meets her princess, other princess, and then says, “Now we negotiate our political system of otherness,” instead of you complete me happily ever after. She needs to sit down with Dr. Orna. Dr. Orna needs to come in after the wedding and sit down with Nico and negotiate the otherness.

Abby Wambach:

That’s good.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay, go ahead.

Amanda Doyle:

I think before the wedding, maybe, Orna-

Glennon Doyle:

Maybe before the wedding-

Amanda Doyle:

… you should be there?

Abby Wambach:

Yeah, pre, pre.

Amanda Doyle:

What is the fear that underlies this issue of otherness? I’m not necessarily mad because you do X and I do Y, I am deeply disturbed by this because I have some fear of what?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

That is huge. That is a huge question. You can try to answer that question on many layers. I mean, some people say that we’re kind of wired to understand the world by creating differences in our mind. We have to create distinction to be able to even have any kind of thought. There’s some way that we always have to separate what’s this and what is it not? What I am is not you, what you are is not me. There’s some way that it’s kind of inherent, but then what is the fear? There could be all sorts of fears and you could talk about like early childhood fears that get triggered. What is the fear if I depend, will that other abandon? If that one is other than me, is there immediately the question of who is better? Is there immediately a question of hierarchies and power? If we’re different, who’s on top? Who’s exploiting? Is there a fear of the person’s otherness means I’m not entitled to exist? There’re many ways that you can imagine what this difference and what the fear brings up and then there’s the question of your life experiences and how you’ve been indoctrinated to respond to difference. If-

Abby Wambach:

That’s good.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

… let’s say the political system you grew up in invites dealing with difference by way of oppression, then that’s what you think, other oppress. If you’re growing up in a society in which otherness is like you seek to harmonize, then you’ll have a very different kind of reaction to otherness. It’s actually a great question to try to answer it in a deep way. What is the existential fear that otherness brings up? Because that underlies racism, it underlies homophobia, every kind of difference obviously is a riddle, like how are you going to respond to that?

Glennon Doyle:

Mm-hmm. What is the fear of otherness? Dang. Start with a big doozy.

Amanda Doyle:

I mean, I think it’s also interesting the way you’re talking about it from a political system and otherness and I think especially in the last few years, we have experienced a huge polarization and many people are experiencing it in their own homes. Even if they’re not politically polarized with their partners, one thing I love about your work is you honor feminist theory within your psychoanalysis. There’s this whole idea of an awareness of the political reality within the realities of our relationships. What have you seen that’s a major otherness? If you’re in like I am, a opposite sex marriage, and you’re having a very different experience of the last four years just by nature of who you are then I have had, I have noticed myself these resentments, the anger that I have to experience being a second class citizen in this country and you never will, and therefore you cannot understand me. You are so other. Have you seen that more in the last-

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Absolutely, yes. Absolutely. I mean, first of all, what’s happening now in the States, I mean, it’s not only happening in the states, it’s happening in Europe, it’s happening in Israel, it’s happening across the world, it’s like a disease. But this business of more and more extreme polarization and we can see it between Democrats and Republicans, red and blue, but when that is the way of thinking that has marked our time, then it will make its way, of course, into gender dynamics. It will make its way into the smallest difference around how to load the dishwasher. When people are in the mindset of what I would call splitting, and I’ll explain what I mean, it goes everywhere. It goes in relationships between parent and children. It’s really a disease.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

What I mean by splitting and that goes to this question of difference and response to difference is this British analyst, Melanie Klein, many years ago, really emphasized this primary defense that we all come into the world with or start our life with, which is this trying to distinguish good from bad internally. There are things that feel good and things that feel bad. There’s the breast that is giving milk and then the empty breast that is keeping the baby hungry. Those differences between good and bad are very important. We need to preserve the good inside us and then project the bad outside of us. It’s sort of a basic way of organizing an experience. With time and with the development of mind, one can integrate good and bad and say, “Oh, mom is both feeding and sometimes not there. Our partner is both this wonderful person that provides a lot of warmth and sometimes not available.”

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

It’s the same person and the good feelings that get created in us, we are the same person that feels both love and hate. The integration of this good and bad is developmentally where we want to be. Going back to your question of, for example, gender differences and completely different ways of experiencing the world, ultimately what you want is for people to be able to understand that their inner experience of goodness and badness is the same. I mean, it’s not the same, but it lives within the same container. When I work with couples, for example, on gender differences on how, let’s say, patriarchy shapes their experience in the world, people come into the negotiation or into the conflict, assuming that, for example, women assume that they’re the only one suffering from patriarchy.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Men suffer from patriarchy tremendously. They’re robbed of so much by having to split and perform this kind of masculine role and they have to split off all that’s within them that has to do with femininity and it empties them out. Any kind of splitting ultimately empties you out. Women suffer, too. Not only do they suffer the oppression of patriarchy, but they suffer of having to split themselves off of all the goods that whatever we want to imagine is masculinity is. You want to bring people into the understanding, the deep deeply felt understanding that we’re everything and these splits are artificial. They rob us.

Glennon Doyle:

Is splitting playing a role then? Is splitting like I am a girl, so I act this way, you are a boy, you act this way, I am a Christian, so I believe these things, you are a whatever? Is it identity roles?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Yeah. Yes. They’re identity roles that force us to occupy certain aspects of ourselves and then dissociate from other aspects, like disavow, lose touch with, push aside, and then feel compelled to see whatever we’ve pushed aside in the other, and then try to control that other because it’s really scary to constantly have to disavow stuff in yourself. You got to see it in the other and then get a grip on that other, control.

Abby Wambach:

Damn.

Glennon Doyle:

A woman who has squashed her own ambition says to another woman, “I just don’t like the way,” something about her or a man who has hidden all of his femininity and homosexual whatever is the one who teases the other person about their gayness. Is this what we’re saying?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Yes.

Glennon Doyle:

Wow.

Amanda Doyle:

Is that related to maybe in a couple where one person feels responsibility for the logistical business of running a family and so has to avow that because they feel obligated and then therefore squelch the human part? The machine part is adopted, the human part, the sexual, the curious, the joyful is squashed and therefore, I’m resenting that in my partner-

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Exactly.

Amanda Doyle:

… because I have split.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Exactly, exactly. There was a couple like that on the show a couple of seasons ago, Michael and Michal. They were such a classic example of that where one of them was like the hyperfunctional, all she could think of was how to get the family moving and her husband was all about like, wait, what about fun? What about relaxing, vacation? Hang out with the kids. They were so split between them and she forgot she loves having a good time. My, what we call a, paradoxical intervention with them was like, Michal, you have to take two hours a day and do nothing, nothing, like play on your phone. You cannot be productive for two hours a day. That was a magical intervention because suddenly she was like, oh, actually I love doing that. He was suddenly like, oh my God, I’ve given up all these functional roles that I actually love doing, too.

Glennon Doyle:

What is a paradoxical intervention and how does a couple do one on themselves?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

A paradoxical intervention, it comes from the cognitive behavioral world, but it’s when you instruct a person to do exactly the opposite of what you ultimately think is going to happen. Let’s say if you want a person to take more responsibility for finances, you paradoxically instruct them to spend as much money as possible with the idea that you’re then kind of you’re scrambling the system and other things get evoked in them. You break them out of certain patterns and in a way you allow for the opposite to emerge. How can a couple do that on themselves? For example, if you feel compelled to yell at your wife for putting her shoes in the wrong place, you feel compelled to do that, instead of doing that, every time you feel compelled to do that, go up and give her a hug. You’re wonderful.

Abby Wambach:

Opposite game.

Glennon Doyle:

The opposite game.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

The opposite.

Amanda Doyle:

Because then she doesn’t have to put her shoes in the wrong place to punish you for withholding your love.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

For example. Yeah, you’re both suddenly released from something.

Glennon Doyle:

That’s so interesting. Do you feel that the new or a new version of toxic masculinity is passivity? Because I do feel that way, I think we’re all looking for toxicity in the wrong place. I don’t think it’s too obvious. It has morphed from the yelling and the screaming.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Okay. A non-friendly way of describing that is as toxic, that passivity is another way of asserting a certain kind of dominance. It’s toxic in its own way. I encourage myself not to split and to try to understand all sides. I’ve given a lot of thought to this kind of new form of masculinity that is indeed on the face of it defined by passivity. Lots of things are happening I think in gender politics and in the distribution of roles, but one thing that is happening is it’s pretty confusing to be a man, an aware man, in today’s world. The coordinates of what makes you perform your gender well have been scrambled. Society’s no longer asking of men simply to be a breadwinner or simply to be dominant and clueless about anything else. A major defining role has been removed.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

On the other hand, there’s still all sorts of very powerful fantasies, phallic fantasies, like fantasies of what masculinity is. I think it gets really confusing when on one hand there’s like this great pressure to perform some kind of masculinity. On the other hand, the clear coordinate of what that is have been devalued. Women are making more money than men, they’re taking on positions. I mean, there’s no longer an expectation that women will just subserve and take a secondary role. How is a man to perform masculinity? What are they supposed to do? It’ll take a few generations to socialize men to actually find other ways to bring themselves into society and be valuable, like to connect with other parts of themselves. They’re left with a vacuum while there’s still a great deal of pressure to perform something. I think men are confused and paralyzed. I mean, this is a great generalization. I mean, they’re-

Glennon Doyle:

Sure, of course.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

But that’s what I think of this passive situation.

Abby Wambach:

I can feel myself understanding passivity in this way because it’s like the structure of being dominant, being the breadwinner is very clear. Now when you take that away and then you’re left in this other pot of like I could decide all of these other options, it’s scary. It’s like, wait, where do I even fucking begin? It makes a lot of sense.

Glennon Doyle:

Well, you begin by like picking the kids up from school. You’re not like me with what I just did, I just split. Is that why you’re such a good listener? Are you always avoiding splitting? Because sometimes when I watch you do the show and I think clearly she’s going to tell that guy that he’s a jackass, like clearly that’s the next thing to do, and you just have this way of double down, get deeper, deeper, deeper. Is that what you’re doing, you’re resisting judgment? What are you doing?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

That’s a good question. I think after so much analytic training and work, I think there is kind of almost like already now a built in suspicion of splitting. I don’t believe it anymore. When I find myself splitting, I can listen to the news and I’ll be like blah you know, monsters, and then I’m like, come on, you know better, try to understand what are their fears, where are they coming from, what’s motivating that side? There’s also something else that helps, which is that when I sit with couples, my patient, the unit that I’m treating is the couple. Each of the participants I see them as just a part of a whole and what I’m trying to listen to is what’s happening in the system. I mean, sometimes I kind of take a pause from that and I dig into each person’s individual history and go in there, but then I kind of zoom back out and I’m like, okay, but how is this part of the system as a whole? Is this system thriving or is this system stuck and how do I help the system-

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah, that makes sense.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

… keep growing?

Amanda Doyle:

Can you talk a little bit about what commonly you see in your work as proxies for bigger issues? If there’s all of this confused dynamics in a relationships, what are the things that we go to to give that meaning? We fight about sex, we fight about money, what are those things and then what are they representing that are bigger?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Yeah, I understand. Obviously, different therapists will listen in on different interpretive paradigms, but I can tell you that for me, there’re a few layers that I listen for and assume underlie certain fights about sex, money, dishwasher. One of, I mean I guess to me might seem obvious, maybe it’s not obvious to listeners, which is childhood histories, like how are each one in the couple reenacting childhood issues, whether it’s traumas or unresolved dilemmas or patterns or unresolved attachment questions, riddles, how are they reenacting it with their partner to try to figure something out for themselves? That’s one layer that I go to. Then there’s the layer of, if you want to go even beyond that, what are intergenerational stuff that couples are trying to resolve between them? Maurice Apprey, is a wonderful analyst and writer, talks about these intergenerational errands that are passed down that still need to be resolved. That’s something that I keep in mind. That’s why some family therapists start any kind of family therapy with these elaborate genograms where they go way back several generations to understand what are the forces that are influencing the particular family unit.

Glennon Doyle:

Wow.

Amanda Doyle:

Can you give us an example of, you called it, a generational errand?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Errand, yes.

Amanda Doyle:

Yes. What is an example of one?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

An example, this is a couple that we filmed a couple of seasons ago. Actually, they’re not on the show yet, but hopefully they’ll make it in. This is an African American couple. She was describing how she comes from many, many generations in which the men never stuck around. The women were always left alone to raise the family, to raise the kids, and a great deal of resentment that has been passed down intergenerationally and with this particular partner that she had a wonderful, wonderful relationship with her current partner, but she did feel like there’s a certain kind of debt that he owed her that is not between them. It’s something that has been passed down from generations of women that have been abandoned. Now, of course, you cannot separate that from the larger history of what it means to be Black in America and so it’s not just intergenerational, it’s of course immediately tied to the sociopolitical system in which these families grew up. I’m working now with a couple where one of the couples he’s like first generation Mexican American and he’s always been the translator for the parents. He’s the one that knew English, he’s the translator, and the partner he chose is deaf.

Glennon Doyle:

Wow.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

He’s working on the business of translating, bringing someone into current culture. He’s bringing the deaf into the hearing culture.

Glennon Doyle:

Wow.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

It’s kind of amazing and gorgeous to notice these kind of intergenerational transmissions of errands that people are tasked with and then they live out in their current relationships. Then there’s the layer of power and sociopolitics that you want to listen in for. It’s always there between couples, there’s always some negotiation about class, there’s always negotiation about gender. Even in gay relationships, there’s negotiation about gender.

Abby Wambach:

Mm-hmm. Who gets the bugs? That’s our negotiation in this family.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Exactly, yeah.

Glennon Doyle:

Wow.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Those are the layers that I listen for myself.

Glennon Doyle:

Beautiful. Would it be okay with you if we played some questions from our Pod Squad that they sent in for you?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Sure.

Glennon Doyle:

Wonderful, okay.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Of course.

Glennon Doyle:

Let’s hear the first one.

Abby Wambach:

I could just listen to her talk all the days.

Glennon Doyle:

I know.

Speaker 5:

My question for you today is what is the difference between a want and a need in a relationship and how does that play out? If we don’t get a need met and wants met, does that become a need or vice versa? Then if I don’t get my needs met, do I even want my partner anymore? This is all very confusing. As someone who’s highly codependent, how do I separate the two?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Interesting. There’s this thing in the zeitgeist, in culture now, which is this want versus need. It seems to be something that’s out there in the world. I’d have to think about what is it that people are trying to figure out by making that distinction. It’s not a distinction that I use, the distinction between want and need, but I think it’s a question which comes up between couples of legitimacy like, what is a legitimate ask and what is not?

Amanda Doyle:

Mm-hmm. What do I have a right to be mad about versus what am I supposed to just accept as normal?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Yeah. That’s a very good question and it’s always going to be there. I don’t think it’s something that you can simply resolve within yourself because we’re full of wishes and wants and desires and needs and that’s our humanity. I think it’s a question that should be figured out intersubjectively, like in a certain context a certain need becomes a want because you’re asking for something that is exactly very difficult for your partner to offer. In another environment or with another dynamic between a couple, something that might feel like a desperate need suddenly becomes a very easy want. It really depends on the dynamic and the contours of each person. I don’t think it’s a simple question of like, oh, is my need or my want legitimate? Should I work on it on my own or not? I think it depends on who your partner is.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

I’m thinking, for example, a very classic thing or if your partner is, let’s say, somewhat neuro-atypical, they’re somewhat on the spectrum and they don’t exactly use the language of affect of emotion the way you do. It’s much more confusing for them in those situations, the ask for a certain kind of verbal empathy, which is a very basic wish, ask, need, for some people that’s like, what are you talking about? I don’t know how to do that. It’s like milk from a rock. It’s not because they’re withholding, it’s not because a power dynamic, it’s just they’re not wired that way. It’s a very complicated ask for them. In that situation, what would be in another context a very legitimate wish, it’s a more complicated one. What do you do with that? You have to think of it intersubjectively. On the other hand, in other couples, it can be someone who’s very capable of being empathic and verbally available, but because of a certain dynamic that got created, I don’t know, too much criticism, power, this, that, or the other, the fountain is closed and then it’s a very different kind of conversation.

Amanda Doyle:

I’m wondering what the third way is in this question because she’s saying, “Do I need to change my needs or do I need to change my partner?” What is the third way for her to be thinking about this as opposed to those two?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Right. I’m going to operate with a goodwill assumption that change the partner is not really the third way. I mean, sometimes it is, but let’s start from how do we work it out? First of all, trying to figure out between two people, what is going on here? Is what you’re asking really something that your partner it’s just not in their making? They’re not made that way, that’s a very difficult ask from them. Think of it of like asking someone who wears glasses to take off their glasses and see better without glasses. It’s just kind of possibly the wrong ask, in which case, the third way is how do you figure out the thing you need and not bring it to your partner, but take it somewhere else? How do you see your partner for who they are and what can you focus on in what’s going on between you and your partner that is kind of an open channel and an ask that will bring a lot of good exchange between the two of you? Rather than ask your partner to take off their glasses and see, talk to them about listen to music together, what are good places in which you exchange goods between you?

Glennon Doyle:

There’s some kind of connotation about need and want, too. I don’t know what this means, but I noticed in my yoga class recently that every time the yoga teacher says, “Use these blocks,” to the class, “use these blocks if you need them,” nobody uses the blocks, but if she says, “Use the blocks if you want them,” so-

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Interesting.

Glennon Doyle:

… many people use the blocks and-

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Meaning people don’t want to feel like they need?

Glennon Doyle:

Yes. I think if she says need, everybody thinks I don’t want to be the one who needs, I’m not weak.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

I see.

Amanda Doyle:

I should be able to do without this-

Glennon Doyle:

Yes, or-

Amanda Doyle:

… which is what this lady is saying in her question, what can I do without so that I don’t ask too much?

Glennon Doyle:

Yeah. That’s why I just like the want, like why not just use the want all the time? It feels like there’s a lot of agency in it.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Maybe what you’re all talking about is how certain, I don’t know what word to use, needs, wants, certain kind of wishes to use a neutral word evoke in people a sense of deficiency.

Abby Wambach:

That’s right.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

They need to work around that rather than sit in that and have understanding, compassion, like have a way to sit with that feeling of deficiency without getting worked up, feeling like they’re demanding or asking for too much, sit with themselves with what’s going on there before it becomes an intersubjective issue.

Glennon Doyle:

Mm-hmm.

Abby Wambach:

Talking about women and the deficiency that we have all felt along the whole of our lives to not even have the ability to consider wishes. I think having to work on this stuff to pull it up for ourselves, I mean, it’s like that scene in The Notebook like, what do you want? I think that it’s hard for so many of us to really nail that down and to then give that away and have to expect that your partner is going to give you for this marriage or this relationship to work, there feels like it’s vulnerability, all of the things.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Yeah. To talk about it in terms of gender, it’s again, going back to the idea of splitting. I mean, all of it has to do with vulnerability, need has been split and kind of dumped into the feminine. There’s just so much shame around that.

Glennon Doyle:

Yep. Let’s hear from Keaton.

Keaton:

I’m Keaton and I have a silly little question for you. Long story short, how do you tell someone that you love so deeply that they are annoying? I have a boyfriend of about five years who gets so very interested in niche topics and loves to share what he’s learned with me, which I love, but my word, can he go on and on. It just so happens that he picks the moments where if I’m doing the dishes or making the bed or I’m actively involved in something and he’ll just talk at me. It’s like I don’t need to be there, like he just wants get information that’s so excited out. Am I the problem? Is it my issue that my brain and ears like grow legs and run away from the situation when he starts telling me about a new political issue that he’s discovered? I love him so much, I don’t want to hurt him, but sometimes I just have to say, “I don’t want to be talked at right now.” Give me any advice you have or just tell me I’m the problem and shut up. Love you so much.

Abby Wambach:

Oh, Keaton. Glennon is feeling your pain right now. I am your husband, big time.

Glennon Doyle:

Doctor, I just want to tell you, and I don’t even know if you know this, yesterday we went on a three and a half mile walk. I tried an experiment where I thought I’m going to just respond in grunts or one word answers and see if she even notices that I’m not wanting to have this conversation-

Abby Wambach:

I noticed at mile two.

Glennon Doyle:

It doesn’t matter.

Abby Wambach:

Mile two.

Glennon Doyle:

It doesn’t matter. She talked for an hour and 10 minutes at me and never picked up on the fact that I just-

Abby Wambach:

Mile two I picked up, for sure.

Glennon Doyle:

But you kept going.

Abby Wambach:

I didn’t, I-

Glennon Doyle:

You did. You said, “I’m going to stop talking,” and then five minutes later you started talking again.

Abby Wambach:

I walked ahead of you. I walked ahead of you.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay, anyway, let’s talk about Keaton.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

I love it. First of all, I appreciate the impulse to be kind.

Glennon Doyle:

Yes. Oh, sorry.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

That’s great, that’s great. I guess to some degree, we’re talking about like self-absorption versus relatedness. We have this concept in the analytic world, you’re probably familiar with the concept of transference, there’s also the concept of countertransference, which is what the analyst feels what their experience is while sitting with their patient. We consider countertransference a very important source of information. If you’re feeling one way or another with your partner, you might be struggling with something with a feeling like, let’s say, boredom or I want to run away, but you also have really important information for your partner in that feeling. The question is how do you artfully and kindly use that information to send back feedback to your partner? If one of you is self-absorbed or talking on and on and not reading cues, that’s important information. I think you’d want to know that you’re doing that. I mean, you can still choose to keep doing that, but it’s important information. Rather than run away, find the right time and the artful way to translate your experience into information for your partner, like when you go on and on, I feel irrelevant, I feel like I’m not in the picture, I’m not exactly sure what to do with myself. What’s going on between us in those moments?

Glennon Doyle:

That is interesting because that’s what it is. It’s not like you’re annoying. That’s not what I’m thinking. I’m thinking why isn’t she noticing that I’m not wanting this? I actually think she is noticing, which I was right about, you are noticing it’s just not as important as you continuing the thing.

Abby Wambach:

Well, even though you don’t believe that I didn’t stop talking, when I noticed I made adjustments.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay, great.

Amanda Doyle:

But isn’t there another step to that, too, Doctor? Because let’s just say theoretically Abby’s going on and on, Glennon is not present in it and Glennon is thinking, why is Abby not noticing that I do not exist in this moment and therefore, my existence is not important to her in this moment? But then when Abby feels that, Abby might be thinking, why when I share does Glennon disappear and why is she not in it with me?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Exactly. First of all, there are a lot of assumptions already there, but you want to translate that into a question for the two of you, like what is going on? Glennon, you can say, I’m feeling like I don’t exist, I don’t know if that’s what’s going on, but I feel like I’m not existing in this moment for you, you’re caught in your own story. Abby, you might say, well, you’re not sending me enough cues, I don’t actually know where you are with this and maybe I am lost in my own mind and I’m kind of using you as a vessel, but the truth of the matter is you’re not giving me enough cues. If you responded, I’d know who my audience is and I’d adjust better. You’ve already left the scene.

Abby Wambach:

I would just a heads up, we were going on a walk, which is where we do a lot of our talking about-

Glennon Doyle:

Right, it’s totally true, it’s totally true.

Abby Wambach:

…. what we do on the show. I thought, I was like, here we go. We’re going to creatively brainstorm about future episodes and so I’m just talking about whatever comes into my mind and she’s not responding and-

Glennon Doyle:

You’re right. I could have said, babe, I just need some time, but instead I’m stewing, like why isn’t she noticing, why isn’t she noticing? When I could have just said, hey, I just needed some quiet.

Abby Wambach:

Sure, yeah. That would help.

Glennon Doyle:

Okay. How about Jo-

Abby Wambach:

Thanks, Keaton. Sorry that we stole your question.

Glennon Doyle:

Sorry, Keaton. We had some issues.

Jo:

Hi, this is Jo. I am 28 years old and I’ve been married for five years and I’m struggling because before I got married I completely fell in love with someone else. My current husband is a great guy. We have a great relationship. We had a great relationship before I fell in love with someone else, but we were in a very strong, conservative environment, Christian environment, and marriage was just the obvious right next steps for us. This other person came into my life and I completely fell in love with them. My husband knows about all of this and that person’s no longer in my life, but five years later, we have two kids and I’m still struggling with the feelings of love and the feelings of loss and the feelings of grief from that relationship and feeling like I discovered more and real love after finding my first love, if that makes any sense. Basically my question is how do you move on when it’s so fucking hard? Thanks, appreciate it.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Yeah. Difficult, painful. Obviously, there’s no easy answer to this. I can just think out loud and if I was in conversation with this person I would want to first of all try to distinguish between is this a question of courage? The courage to leave what I guess sounds like more of a communal self, a self that is consistent with the community you grew up in, your Christian environment, family. Is it a question of the courage to abandon that part of oneself to go for, I don’t know, true love or passion or excitement? Is it that kind of choice or is a more useful way to think about it that this other entity, this true love entity that remains there, is it in a way almost like a stand in, like a symbol, for the fantasy of the thing, the fantasy of perfection, or the fantasy of going back to the womb or the going back to childhood or going back to the country you came from? People have all these fantasies of where it could have should have been better and where real life is and not dealing with current life at the reality of our very difficult lives that we actually live. Is this true love kind of really a fantasy that one refuses to let go of that serves the function of always drawing this person away from life as it is?

Abby Wambach:

Wow.

Glennon Doyle:

Let’s hear from Ashley.

Ashley:

Hi, I’m Ashley. I’m wondering how to know when you’ve lost yourself in a relationship? I have been in a relationship for over a year now and it has been one of the best things, I’ve just learned so much, it’s been so loving and fun, but I’m also thinking that I might be losing myself in the relationship. For example, last night my partner told me that he had done an activity with friends and we had planned to do that activity together. It just really hurt my feelings. I felt jealous of his friends. I felt jealous that he did that. I felt jealous that maybe I don’t have as many friends as I used to or really any at all if I’m going to be honest. I don’t have someone to go do that with besides him. I think that’s probably a sign that I’m lost in the relationship, but I guess what are the signs that you’re lost in a relationship? What can you do to get out of that?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Interesting. Sounds like this person is already doing a lot of the work, so keep doing that work. I guess the work is a strong feeling comes up and often the indicator that there’s something to investigate is the feeling of blame and then rather than indeed just go after the person turning it back to herself and asking, what’s going on for me, what am I feeling? Okay, I’m feeling jealous of what he’s doing. How do I turn that question back towards myself and ask myself what’s missing in me? I mean, often this lost in the relationship symptom is some way that some question that should be turned to the self is interpersonalized. It’s put into the relationship, like your partner is supposed to fulfill something or answer something that you are not doing the work of answering to yourself. It sounds like this person is already doing that work, so great. It’s a good example of what it means to try not to get lost in a relationship.

Abby Wambach:

Yeah. It’s like the fact that she’s asking this question means that she’s doing the work and that maybe she’s a little less lost than she thinks.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Yeah.

Amanda Doyle:

It’s interesting that both this one and the one prior, where we talked about wants and needs, it’s like part of the answer may mean that we’re searching for something within the relationship that we can access and maybe only can access outside of the relationship and that that’s not a deficiency, that’s just the way we were made.

Abby Wambach:

Or inside of ourselves, access inside of ourselves as well.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

There’s an inclination to, what I call, interpersonalize certain issues, to turn it into a relationship issue when it’s not, it’s something else.

Abby Wambach:

Interpersonalize, that’s good.

Glennon Doyle:

Can we hear from Caitlin?

Caitlin:

Hi, this is Caitlin. Please, can we talk about sleeping with our romantic partner? I’ve been with my boyfriend for two years to date, I have never been able to successfully sleep in the same bed as him. Our sleeping habits are different. He’s a heavy sleeper, I’m a light sleeper. He snores, I don’t. The sound of a bird will wake me and he could sleep through a hurricane. I feel the weight of expectation to just do the thing, be unconscious on the same piece of furniture for a whole eight hours and I cannot do it. It’s causing deep anxiety, stress, and humiliation, and shame in my 30 something life. He sees this as an act of love and connection. The harder I try to sleep in the same bed to meet his need, the more unlikely it is that I sleep. I want to know whoever decided that this was a thing and do you have any advice? Thanks.

Amanda Doyle:

Good for you, Caitlin.

Glennon Doyle:

Thank you, Caitlin.

Abby Wambach:

That’s good.

Glennon Doyle:

Let’s hear it.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Yeah. I love the way she’s phrasing the question. This is good

Amanda Doyle:

To be unconscious on the same piece of furniture for eight hours.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

It is-

Amanda Doyle:

… but how did that become a symbol of love?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

How did that become a thing? That’s great. I’m, again, just going to think out loud. There’s no cookie cutter answer to something like that, but I would pursue two different questions, two different ways of thinking about this. I mean, one would be yeah, whoever decided that’s a thing? There’s plenty of ways to live life and not everyone needs to live in this kind of put it all in one box, all in one bedroom, all in one apartment. Plenty of people choose to be in a romantic relationship and not live together, not sleep together, give a lot of space. People have different needs in terms of how much together enmeshment they need and how much space they need. I’m like, figure it out, there’s not one way to live life. That’s on one hand. Whoever decided that’s a thing is a very good question, doesn’t have to be a thing.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

But I’m also thinking, you know, sleeping, being unconscious on a piece of furniture is a time when we are indeed very vulnerable and trusting. You might want to ask yourself, what is scary about that? What is your unconscious telling you about what could happen to you if you let loose and fall asleep in the presence of another person? What are the dreads that come up around that? What is the kind of mixing up that sleeping together threatens? I wouldn’t take it as simply being very sensitive as far as hearing, although who knows? Maybe that person is a highly sensory person, but maybe there’s more to it, maybe that unconscious has something to say.

Glennon Doyle:

Fascinating. We always end with a teeny segment called the Next Right Thing, which is just one little thing that if people don’t try anything else that they can do and even though it’s called We Can Do Hard Things, we like for this to be an easy thing. Is there some way to operationalize the embracing of otherness, like what does that look like or sound like in a relationship? Because it sounds like that’s the main thing that we have to forget the complete me and celebrate the otherness that relationships insist we celebrate. How do we do that? What do we say? What do we stop doing? What do we do today?

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

That’s a good one. How would I operationalize it in a nugget? Maybe challenge yourself to think of the thing about your partner that is the most disturbing to you, that brings you the most agita, to try to imagine it as the thorn from which the most growth can happen.

Glennon Doyle:

I believe that shit. That’s good. We love you Dr. Orna. After this, can you send me an email-

Abby Wambach:

A riddle.

Glennon Doyle:

… about-

Abby Wambach:

… a riddle.

Glennon Doyle:

… where you get your sweaters and scarves and-

Abby Wambach:

And are you taking new clients?

Glennon Doyle:

Right. Just all the answers to my Google searches, that would be great.

Abby Wambach:

You’re the best.

Glennon Doyle:

You’re wonderful. Thank you for your show. I actually think, well, you know this, but it’s making a big difference for so many people who can’t get to therapy, but need your brilliance. Thank you for making that show. Everybody, you can catch it on Showtime, Couples Therapy. It’s a good time. All right. We Can Do Hard Things like operationalize otherness and consider other people’s annoyances as the thorn from which our growth will come.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Thank you so much, so much. This has been fabulous. Really wonderful questions.

Glennon Doyle:

Aw.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Thank you for pushing me to the edge. It’s great.

Glennon Doyle:

Oh, that’s what we tend to do to people.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Awesome.

Glennon Doyle:

We will see you back here on We Can Do Hard Things. Bye.

Dr. Orna Guralnik:

Okay, buh-bye.

Glennon Doyle:

We Can Do hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn’t, don’t worry about it, it’s fine.